Torah! Torah! Torah!

Fri Mar 15 2024

Christ said that He did not come to abolish the Torah but to fulfill it (Matt. 5:17), but a lot of Christians seem to think He came to abolish it. All that Old Testament stuff is over. But is that the real relationship of the OT to the NT? Tune in and find out.

Transcript

Father Andrew Stephen Damick (0:00)

He will be a staff for the righteous with which for them to stand and not to fall. And he will be the light of the nations and the hope of those whose hearts are troubled. All who dwell on the earth will fall down and worship him. And they will praise and bless and celebrate with song the Lord of spirits.

Father Andrew Stephen Damick (0:22)

The modern world doesn't acknowledge, but is nevertheless haunted by spirits and angels, demons and saints. In our time, many yearn to break free of the prison of a flat secular materialism, to see and to know reality as it truly is. What is this spiritual reality like? How do we engage with it? Well, how do we permeate everyday life with spiritual presence? Orthodox Christian priests, Father Andrew Stephen Damick and Fr. Stephen DeYoung host this live call in show focused on enchantment in creation. This the union of the seen and unseen as made by God and experienced by mankind throughout history. Welcome to the Lord of Spirits.

Father Andrew Stephen Damick (1:07)

Hey, everybody. It's March 14th. Some people call it PI Day, but if you know how to pronounce that letter in Greek, it's very different. So good evening to you giant killers.

Father Stephen DeYoung (1:19)

You can't, you can't segue over into eating pie if you pronounce it the other way. That's correct. What are you going to consume if you pronounce it the other way?

Father Andrew Stephen Damick (1:28)

Right. See, that's why it's a problem.

Father Stephen DeYoung (1:31)

That's why I think you're making it a problem.

Father Stephen DeYoung (1:36)

Sans pedantry. There is no issue here. That's all.

Father Andrew Stephen Damick (1:43)

Right. Yes. What podcast is this? That's right. It's the Lord of Spirits podcast. My co Host, Father Stephen DeYoung is with me from Lafayette, Louisiana. And I'm Father Andrew Stephen Damick in Emmaus, Pennsylvania. And we are live. And if you're listening to us live and not listening to the recording, you can call us at 855-237-2346. Just like the voice of Steve just said, we're going to get your calls in the second half of the show and Elijah is going to be taking your calls.

Father Stephen DeYoung (2:11)

So. And it's. He's a little out of control. He already did that little record scratch thing at the beginning of the intro. So.

Father Andrew Stephen Damick (2:17)

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Lord of Spirits

Episode: Torah! Torah! Torah!

Date: March 15, 2024

Hosts: Fr. Andrew Stephen Damick & Fr. Stephen De Young

Overview

This episode centers on the Torah’s place within Orthodox Christianity, especially its role bridging the Old and New Testaments. The priests dismantle misunderstandings about "abolishment" versus "fulfillment" of the Torah and explore how Orthodox Christians are to understand the union of the seen and unseen world via the teachings and commandments of the Torah. They dive into specific scriptural passages, the historical evolution of interpretations on the Torah, and key principles that continue to govern Orthodox life. The episode features extensive, often humorous banter, global listener engagement, and in-depth discussion on why knowledge of the Torah is crucial for Christian theology and practice.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Central Question: Torah in Christianity

Opening Theme: The Torah is frequently referenced in previous episodes, but tonight's discussion aims for a comprehensive treatment: “What is the relationship of the Old Testament, especially the Torah, to the New Testament? What exactly did Christ mean when he said not to abolish but to fulfill the Torah?” ([02:19])
Jokes and Banter: The episode opens with characteristic humor about kosher laws and pickles, setting a relaxed but intellectual tone. ([03:28])
The Torah’s Authority Across Communities: Every major stream of Judaism in the Second Temple period recognized the Torah as foundational, regardless of which other texts they included. Even rival groups centered their identity on the Torah, albeit with variations in emphasis (e.g., Enochic vs. Pharisaic Judaism, Dead Sea Scrolls communities). ([07:12]-[10:09])

2. Torah as the Foundation for Christian Theology

Old Testament Canon Structure: The Torah is the “foundation stone”—historical books are Deuteronomistic history, written through the lens of Deuteronomy. ([10:21]-[10:43])
New Testament Parallels: The Gospels are presented as a “new Torah”—not replacing, but interpreting the Torah through Christ. Christ’s teaching, parables, and conflicts are all rooted in Torah debates. ([11:13]-[12:35])
The Epistles: These further interpret the Hebrew Scriptures (as refracted through the Gospels) rather than replace them. “[T]he New Testament is fundamentally grounded in the Torah.” ([13:02]-[13:11])

3. The “Fulfillment” of the Torah in Christ

Core Text - Matthew 5:17-20: Christ says he has not come to abolish the Law or Prophets, but to fulfill them; until heaven and earth pass, not a jot will pass from the law. Fulfilling the Torah doesn’t mean discarding or relaxing it. ([18:13]-[24:26])
Key Quote:

“Whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven. But whoever does them and teaches them will be called great...” (Fr. Andrew, [19:13])
Common Misreadings: Many claim “fulfill” means “abolished,” but Christ’s own words directly refute that. The conversation critiques Protestant/Calvinist and Evangelical tendencies to break off and misapply these verses. ([19:13]-[26:39])
No Need to Reinvent the Wheel: Christian practice as it relates to the Torah is not the product of reverse engineering but is scripturally and traditionally grounded. ([26:02]-[27:10])

4. St. Paul and the Alleged Break from the Torah

Myth-Busting: Many, including Gnostics, Dispensationalists, Nietzsche, some strands of Islam, and even modern scholarship, treat Paul as breaking from the Torah and Christ. The hosts systematically dismantle these misreadings; Paul is not constructing a “new religion.” ([29:12]-[42:43])
Paul’s Real View: Paul argues for continued relevance and spiritual fulfillment of Torah—e.g., Romans 2: “For it is not the hearers of the Torah who are righteous...but the doers...” ([59:02])
Interpretive Continuity: The “Law is fulfilled in one word: Love your neighbor as yourself.” Paul and Jesus do not differ or set up opposing religions. ([64:01])

5. The Council of Jerusalem: Apostolic Handling of Torah for Gentiles

Acts 15: The Apostles do not abolish the Torah but apply it according to precedent: Jewish Christians remain bound by its fullness; Gentile Christians are accountable only for the subset of commands always applied to “strangers in the land” (sexual immorality, idolatry, eating blood, etc.; cf. Leviticus’ Holiness Code and the Book of Jubilees). ([65:16]-[78:55])
Key Insight: The difference in expectation isn’t random but comes directly from the text and Jewish tradition—“this was already firmly established in terms of Jewish interpretation of the Torah.” ([77:24])
Living Together in Community: Paul’s teachings are geared toward building unity across those different commitments, not abolishing Torah. ([80:02]-[81:27])

6. The Torah as Sin Management and Encounter with Holiness

Structures for God’s Presence: The Torah gives a “sin management system,” enabling God to safely dwell among his people, using literal and symbolic structural barriers (e.g., the tabernacle). Too much proximity to God without holiness leads to “death by holiness.” ([100:29]-[107:02])
External to Internal: ‘What changes in the New Testament is not the principle, but its locus: from external (places and communal structures) to internal (the temple of the Holy Spirit in the believer).’ ([131:19])
Danger Maintained: The spiritual danger of God’s holy presence is not lessened but internalized (e.g., Ananias and Sapphira in Acts). ([129:23]-[129:55])
Key Quote:

“Your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit... not just a neat, beautiful little metaphor. It’s really about, well, how do you treat the Temple?” (Fr. Andrew, [130:17])

7. Sin, Repentance, and Atonement—Principles Enduring in Christ

Sin as Disease and Taint: Sin pollutes people and even places; purification, atonement, and restitution were always required; even the physical elements of Tabernacle/Temple were purified. ([142:21]-[148:47])
Sacrifice, Repentance, and Community: Forgiveness is not purely internal; making amends is essential—sacrifices alone without repentance (“high handed” sin) are ineffective (cf. Numbers 15). ([148:58]-[157:27])
Continuity of Practice: In Orthodox Christianity, true repentance requires both confession and concrete change, culminating in restored Eucharistic communion—just as participation in the sacrificial system required both repentance and action. ([169:01]-[170:06])

Memorable Quotes & Notable Moments

“Fulfilled does not mean abolished”

Fr. Stephen:

“Fulfillment does not mean pass away for sure... Not one stroke of a brush passes away. Not one commandment should be taught against or relaxed.” ([24:09])

On Misunderstanding St. Paul

Fr. Stephen:

“Many... treat [Paul] as breaking from the Torah and Christ... But Paul is not constructing a ‘new religion.’” ([29:12])

The Core Principle of Repentance

Fr. Stephen:

“It’s not sin that keeps us out of the kingdom of God; it’s lack of repentance that keeps us out.” ([159:56])

On Engaging Jewish People Today

Fr. Stephen:

“St. Paul always started in the synagogues, would sit and discuss the Torah... If we want to see Jewish people come to Christ, we must become Christians who actually know the Torah, who can actually speak that language.” ([190:17]-[191:08])

Fr. Andrew’s Summation

Fr. Andrew:

“There’s not this religion in the Old Testament and a separate, new religion in the New Testament... It is the same God. It is the same Lord the whole way through.” ([176:50])

Listener Engagement & Noteworthy Calls

Global Audience: Multiple shoutouts to listeners from China, Germany, Norway, Canada, South Africa, and Korea, highlighting the show’s worldwide reach. ([17:22]-[18:26], [88:00]-[94:22])
Multi-layered Questions: Caller Michelle asks about Christian resistance to Hitler—touching on the connection between marginalizing the Old Testament and moral failures, leading to an in-depth history/sociology interlude tying biblical interpretation to European anti-Semitism and atrocity. ([44:32]-[56:48])
Clarifications on “Church as Israel”: Bob from Massachusetts/Korea inquires about Gentile Christians being treated as sojourners despite being in “Israel,” leading to an explanation of the ongoing, multi-ethnic, multi-national nature of the Church as Israel. ([87:49]-[94:14])
Noah and Clean/Unclean Animals: Daniel raises the question of Noah distinguishing between animal types pre-Torah, leading to a forthcoming promise of more discussion on ritual purity. ([94:56]-[98:42])
Lost Tribes & the Church: Avery raises a big one: if Gentiles represent the ten lost tribes of Israel in Christianity, what about the remaining two tribes? Fr. Stephen launches into his vision of what a true mass Jewish conversion could look like in Orthodoxy. ([136:45]-[140:44])

Timestamps for Key Segments

[03:28] – Jokes about kosher, establishing the tone
[12:35] – Gospels as New Torah
[18:13] – Reading of Matthew 5:17-20
[19:13] – "Fulfill" vs "Abolish" and the “least commandments”
[29:12] – Misreadings of St. Paul
[42:43] – Modern scholarship and linguistic arguments
[59:02] – Romans 2 and Paul’s approach to Torah
[65:16] – Acts 15, Council of Jerusalem, binding of laws for Gentiles
[100:29] – Structures for God’s presence: tabernacle and holiness
[129:23] – Ananias and Sapphira, Acts’ parallel to Nadab and Abihu
[148:58] – Sacrificial system as “sin management”
[159:56] – High-handed sin and necessity of repentance
[176:50] – Fr. Andrew’s closing synthesis
[190:17]-[191:08] – Application to current Christian-Jewish dialogue

Final Takeaways

The Torah was and remains foundational to Christian theology, worship, and communal practice.
Christ did not abolish the Torah; he fulfills it—this fulfillment is a transformation, not erasure, of its principles in the life of the Church.
The “external to internal” transition: God’s presence, formerly protected and mediated through structures and ritual laws, now indwells the Christian via the Holy Spirit, demanding an even higher standard of purity and repentance.
Repentance, not the mere performance of rituals, is the perennial requirement for reconciliation with God; sin’s management always necessitates real transformation and concrete action.
Orthodox Christians are called to a deep, living knowledge of the Torah—not only for their own formation, but to participate thoughtfully in the ongoing, historical conversation between Church and Israel.

Conclusion by Fr. Stephen ([182:02]):

"Maybe...if we do this, we can be part of the generation or the beginning of something that could result in something truly glorious: of the Jewish people turning en masse to their Messiah... It's about time we prepared to do the same with those people's descendants."

For Further Reflection:
Read Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy. Embrace the “wrestling” with the Torah that has always characterized authentic Christian life and conversation.

[Listen to the episode for more!]