Podcast Summary: The Lord of Spirits – "When God Became Man"

Date: December 13, 2024
Hosts: Fr. Andrew Stephen Damick & Fr. Stephen De Young
Theme: Exploring the relationship between the Incarnation of Christ and Old Testament theophanies, and challenging modern misconceptions about Christ’s divinity and humanity in Christian tradition.

Episode Overview

This episode delves deeply into the mystery of the Incarnation—how God became man in Jesus Christ—and how this is understood in Orthodox Christian tradition, especially in light of the bodily appearances (theophanies) of God in the Old Testament. The hosts challenge both ancient and modern misunderstandings about the nature and timing of the Incarnation, the humanity of Christ, heresies like Docetism, and the implications for salvation and human purpose.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Introduction and Setting the Stage

• [03:04–03:38] The hosts introduce the evening’s topic: understanding the Incarnation when Old Testament theophanies depict God as appearing in bodily form.
  • Central Question: If the body Christ is born in comes from the Virgin Mary, how can it be the same body seen in Old Testament appearances?
  • Quick detour into heresies and history, with characteristic banter and references (including Hamlet and food in Denmark).

2. Early Christological Heresies

• [06:36–13:01] Overview of key early heresies:
  • Docetism: Claims Jesus was divine but only seemed to be human. Term from Greek dokeo (to seem). Denied Christ’s material humanity.
    • Quote: “These are groups where they taught that Jesus of Nazareth just appeared to be a human person.” — Fr. Stephen, [16:56]
  • Adoptionism/Cerinthianism: Jesus was a man upon whom the divine Logos descended at some point (often at baptism).
• [17:31–21:24] The hosts debunk the popular academic narrative (esp. from 19th-century German scholarship) that early Christians only believed in a human Jesus who was later thought of as divine.
  • Key Insight: The earliest recorded heretical arguments were not about Jesus becoming God, but about him being genuinely human.

3. Docetism: Misunderstandings and Realities

• [24:59–31:17]
  • Docetic communities were real, functioning religious groups, not just abstract doctrinal stances.
  • They're often lumped together with Gnostics, but this is misleading: their Torah-observance suggests Jewish roots, not anti-material Gnostic metaphysics.
  • Quote: “There’s a much simpler solution… these docetists are groups of Jewish Christians who believed that Jesus of Nazareth was a theophany—like the Old Testament theophanies—and not an actual human being.” — Fr. Stephen, [41:42]

4. New Testament Response to Docetism

• [44:23–52:02] The New Testament consistently and emphatically affirms the fleshly/human reality of Christ:
  • Christ’s post-resurrection body: “Touch me and see. For a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have.” — Jesus (Luke 24:39), [44:40]
  • “The Word became flesh…” (John 1:14), “who was descended from David according to the flesh…” (Romans 1:3), etc.
  • St. John sets the standard: “Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God.” (1 John 4:2), [50:15–50:27]

5. Why Emphasize Christ’s Flesh?

• [54:00–56:38] Most uses of “flesh” in the NT are negative, associated with sin, yet the apostles emphasize Christ’s “flesh” to counter the idea that he only seemed human.
• Key Observation: The persistent stress on Christ’s real humanity is evidence that such a notion was not universally accepted—or obvious—in earliest Christianity.

6. Pre-Existent, Spiritual Messiah in Judaism

• [67:14–71:51] Second-Temple Jewish literature (e.g., 1 Enoch) often speculates about a pre-existent, divine Messiah who would be revealed—laying a conceptual foundation for the doctrine of the Incarnation.

7. Theophanies: God’s Physical Appearances in the Old Testament

• [75:01–88:41] Multiple OT passages depict God with physicality:
  • Genesis 3: God walks in the garden (audibly!).
  • Exodus 24: Moses and elders “see the God of Israel… under his feet… he did not lay his hand on them;” they “beheld God and ate and drank.”
  • 1 Samuel 3, Jeremiah 1: God stands, touches, etc.
  • Genesis 18: Abraham washes the feet of “the LORD” and eats with Him.
  • Memorable Quote: “You can wash dirt off of God’s feet. And he eats!” — Fr. Stephen, [84:41]
• Key Tension: If these are “real” physical bodies, how does that square with the Son becoming man at the Annunciation?

8. Problem and Paradox: When Does the Incarnation Occur?

• [88:49–90:44]
  • Church tradition and hymnography say the feet washed by the sinful woman are the same that “walked in Eden.”
  • So: “Are we to say Christ was always incarnate? Or does ‘the Word became flesh’ mean something punctiliar?”
• Spicy Take: “Almost no Protestants believe in the virgin birth of Christ—only virgin conception.” — Fr. Stephen, [90:59–91:13]

9. Incarnation and the Nature of Change

• [94:00–98:48]
  • God is unchanging. Can the Second Person of the Trinity “take on” human nature at a point in time without change?
  • “Natures don’t do things—persons do things.” Taking “body” historically means taking a nature.

10. The Humanity of Christ: Existing in Time and Space

• [116:49–117:50]
  • Humanity, by definition, entails existing in time and space: birth, life, death, locality.
  • Christ's period as a man—from conception to death—fits within these constraints, but post-resurrection that changes.

11. The Resurrection and Transcendence of Time & Space

• [126:25–131:14]
  • Glorified Christ's resurrected humanity exists outside time and space: “He’s not bound by doors, walls, or sequence—he appears wherever and whenever.”
  • Revelation and Ephesians show: the apostles, including John, are seen enthroned in heaven already, hinting at "outside-time" realities.
  • Key Verse: “The Lamb slain from the foundation of the world” (Revelation 13:8) — not plan B, but core to creation’s existence and goal.

12. Humanity Made According to Christ

• [143:05–148:07]
  • Icons depicting Christ breathing into Adam show that Adam (humanity) is made “according to” Christ’s image—iconographically, they have the same face.
  • “Christ is the image of the invisible God,” and all humans are created according to Him, underlining the destiny and dignity of humanity.

13. Why This Matters for Salvation and Spiritual Life

• [148:07–153:54]
  • Our destiny is in Christ: “seated in the high places,” “sons of the resurrection.”
  • Repentance and faithfulness are aligning with that purpose; salvation is about becoming truly human in Christ, not just “where you go when you die.”
  • Final Exhortation: More than intellectual speculation, the incarnation should incite awe, reverence, and humble admiration for God’s love.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments (by Timestamp)

• [16:56] Fr. Stephen: “These are groups where they taught that Jesus of Nazareth just appeared to be a human person.”
• [21:24] Fr. Stephen: “There were people at the end of the first century… [arguing] ‘No, Jesus was human, not just divine.’”
• [44:40] Jesus (Luke 24:39): “Touch me and see. For a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have.”
• [41:42] Fr. Stephen: “These docetists are groups of Jewish Christians who believed that Jesus of Nazareth was a theophany—like the Old Testament theophanies—and not an actual human being.”
• [84:41] Fr. Stephen: "You can wash dirt off of God's feet. And he eats!"
• [90:59–91:13] Fr. Stephen: “Almost no Protestants believe in the virgin birth of Christ. Conservative Protestants believe in the virgin conception of Christ. But they don’t believe that the Theotokos was a virgin after giving birth.”
• [139:13] Fr. Stephen: “This is the basis and the purpose of the creation of everything in the universe…”
• [145:00–145:46] Fr. Andrew: “Man is made in the image of God… Well, who is the image of God? Christ is the image of God… If Adam is made according to His image, it makes sense to depict that in an icon… Adam looking just like Jesus. All of this is there.”
• [151:35–153:54] Fr. Stephen (closing reflection): “There’s an important place… for awe directed toward God… for awe and admiration directed toward our Lord Jesus Christ for who he is and what he has done for us… Just sit or stand in wonder at the God who created us and the destiny that he created us for.”

Key Takeaway Segments and Timestamps

• First discussion of Docetism and early heresies: [06:36–23:52]
• Jewish roots and the issue with “Gnosticizing” docetism: [39:05–41:48]
• New Testament’s emphasis on Christ’s flesh: [44:23–52:02]
• Old Testament Theophanies and their implications: [75:01–88:41]
• Paradox and liturgical witness to Christ’s one body: [88:49–90:44]
• Resurrection: Christ and humanity outside of time: [126:25–131:14]
• Revelation’s vision of the 24 elders (time and eternity): [131:14–135:13]
• Summary, awe, and the spiritual utility of the mystery: [148:07–153:54]

Concluding Reflection

The episode masterfully weaves together scripture, early heresies, Jewish tradition, worship, and iconography to reveal a profound Orthodox vision: the Incarnation is not an “intervention” or afterthought but the very source and goal of creation. All humans are made to share in Christ’s glory, and the mystery of his being “slain before the foundation of the world” resists easy rationalization, summoning instead awe and worship. The real fruit is to live with reverence, repentance, and hopeful longing for the fullness of our human destiny in Jesus Christ.

For further engagement:

• Read the seven letters of St. Ignatius of Antioch ([23:35–23:48]) for early apostolic witness against docetism.
• Meditate on the icon of the creation of Adam as described ([143:05–145:46]).
• Approach the Nativity season seeking not only understanding, but awe and wonder at “the God who became man for our sake.”

End of Summary