When God Became Man - The Lord of Spirits

Transcript

Narrator (0:00)

He will be a staff for the righteous with which for them to stand and not to fall. And he will be the light of the nations and the hope of those whose hearts are troubled. All who dwell on the earth will fall down and worship him. And they will praise and bless and celebrate with song the lord of spirits. First Enoch, chapter 48, verses 4 through 5. The modern world doesn't acknowledge, but is nevertheless haunted by spirits, angels, demons and saints. In our time, many yearn to break free of the prison of a flat secular materialism, to see and to know reality as it truly is. What is this spiritual reality like? How do we engage with it? Well, how do we permeate everyday life with spiritual presence? Orthodox Christian priests, Father Andrew Stephen Damick and Father Stephen DeYoung host this live call in show focused on enchantment in creation, the the union of the seen and unseen as made by God and experienced by mankind throughout history. Welcome to the Lord of Spirits.

Father Andrew Stephen Damick (1:05)

Thanks for that voice of Steve. Good evening, giant killers, dragon slayers, Wibbly wobbly timey wimers. You are listening to the Lord of Spirits podcast.

Father Stephen DeYoung (1:14)

I'm here. I'm Father Stephen DeYoung and I'm here with an Orthodox priest.

Father Andrew Stephen Damick (1:20)

As Michael Horton called me today.

Father Stephen DeYoung (1:22)

Shout out to old friend Mike Horton.

Father Andrew Stephen Damick (1:26)

That's right, yeah. So, yes, we are live. And if you're listening to us live, you could call us at 855-237-2346 and you can talk to us. And we're going to get to your calls in the second half of the show. And our very own, our beloved Matushka, Trudy the Tank Richter will be taking those calls. This episode is sponsored by Lord of Spigots, Faucets and Fixtures. Are you concerned about what's really in your tap water? Not just contaminants from the local Superfund site or that time your cousin backed his leaky jeep into the creek. But spiritual contamination. Ever get the feeling like your morning coffee was looking back at you? Or maybe that your eggs were having some hell boiled into them? Well, we have the spigot for you. Or are all new Lord of Spigots, spiritual stones, filtration faucets, patent pending, equipped with authentic ummim and thummim shaped purifiers, will leave your tap water not just sparkling clean, but so pure from demonic presence that you'd think you were burning incense 24 7. After you install one of these, your parish priest will be coming to you for holy water. And with just one extra monthly payment of $29,999.95. You can get the optional aspergillum faucet head which will have all your tradcath friends chanting aspergis May acts now and will throw in not just one but two ancient faith branded potholder and tea cozy sets. Call now Lord of spigots, faucets and fixtures.

Summary

The Lord of Spirits Podcast
Episode: "When God Became Man"
Date: December 13, 2024

Brief Overview

This episode addresses one of the most profound and challenging questions in Christian theology: "When God Became Man." Fathers Andrew Stephen Damick and Stephen De Young discuss the mystery of the Incarnation, the bodily manifestations of God in the Old Testament, early Christological heresies (especially Docetism and Adoptionism), and how these relate to Orthodox teaching on the seen and unseen, time, and salvation. With their characteristic mix of humor and depth, the hosts probe the paradoxes at the heart of Christian belief and the implications for who Christ is, when He “became” man, and what this means for humanity and the cosmos.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

I. Setting the Stage: Incarnation and Old Testament Theophanies

(03:04–03:47) The hosts introduce the complexity of reconciling the clear Old Testament material appearances of God (theophanies) — walking in Eden, eating with Abraham — with the New Testament claim that the Son becomes incarnate only from the Virgin Mary.
The question is posed: Is the body the Son “takes” in these Old Testament scenes the same as the one born from Mary? If so, how?
“How do we deal with those very material experiences of God in the Old Testament? And...was Hamlet fighting against Docetism when he said ‘seems’? Madam, Nay, I know not seems.” (03:47, Fr. Andrew)

II. Early Christological Heresies: Adoptionism & Docetism

Adoptionism & Cerinthianism (11:27–12:57)
- Cerinthus: “Jesus of Nazareth was just a man, but then at his baptism, the divine Logos came and sort of attached itself to him.” (12:35, Fr. Stephen)
- The early heresy of Adoptionism suggested Jesus is a man, later ‘adopted’ as Son of God.
Docetism (15:52–17:24):
- Name from the Greek dokeo (“to seem”): Jesus only seemed to be a man; His humanity was an illusion, but His divinity was real.
- This led early fathers like St. Ignatius to stress Christ’s humanity, not to the exclusion of His divinity, but precisely because Docetists denied it.
Historical reality:
- Docetism “...is the end of the first, beginning of the second century...the Docetists proper are [actual communities] at the end of the first or beginning of the second centuries.” (24:42, Fr. Stephen)
Correcting Misconceptions:
- The hosts refute popular modern theories that Christ’s divinity developed only centuries later:
  “Almost all of the early arguments over Christology...are not about whether He’s God...it’s whether and how He’s human.” (20:36, Fr. Andrew)

III. What Motivated Docetism? Gnosticism or Jewish Theophanic Traditions?

Standard modern account: Docetism is equated with Gnosticism (matter = evil, spirit = good, so Christ can’t be truly embodied).
Hosts’ analysis:
- “The problem is, the fact that their belief in matter being evil causes them to say that the Christ just seemed to be a man, doesn’t mean that the Docetists...thought matter was evil.” (30:54, Fr. Stephen)
- In fact, Ignatius testifies these groups kept strict Torah observance — a very Jewish, not Gnostic, concern.
- The simpler solution: They’re Jewish Christians who saw Jesus as a theophany, like OT theophanies (“God appeared in some bodily way”), not as a real man (41:18–41:56).
- “It seems to me a much simpler solution that these Docetists are groups of Jewish Christians who believed that Jesus of Nazareth was a theophany...and not an actual human being.” (41:34, Fr. Stephen)

IV. Scriptural Refutations of Docetism

Survey of NT Passages Insisting on Christ’s Flesh (44:43–51:19)
- Examples:
  - Luke 24:39 – “Touch me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have.” (44:43)
  - John 1:14 – “The Word became flesh and dwelt among us...” (46:40)
  - 1 John 4:2–3, 2 John 1:7 – Denying Christ’s coming “in the flesh” is “antichrist.”
- The repeated NT emphasis on Christ’s physicality — in life, death, resurrection — is because some already denied it in the first century. Quoting Ignatius: “He talks about the flesh of Jesus over and over and over...he’s really hammering on...he’s human, you guys.” (22:47, Fr. Andrew)
“If everyone at the time agreed he was...human, why would you feel the need to keep pointing to the flesh?” (56:27, Fr. Stephen)

V. The Paradox of the Incarnation in Light of Old Testament Theophanies

The Problem:
- The Old Testament has “bodily” theophanies: God walks in Eden (75:36), eats with Abraham (83:27), stands before Samuel (81:23), puts forth his hand to Jeremiah (82:33).
- The Church says: The body with which Christ walks, eats, is touched—is the same as He receives from the Virgin Mary.
The Dilemma:
- “If theophanies, even his own appearances before the Incarnation, can eat, how does that work?” (87:46, Fr. Stephen)
- “If we take the other route and say Jesus was always incarnate in some sense—what does it mean when John says ‘the Word became flesh’?” (89:26, Fr. Stephen)
Liturgical evidence:
- Paschal hymns: “The feet that the sinful woman washed with her tears were the same feet that walked in Eden.” (88:08)

VI. The Two "Modes" of Christ’s Humanity: In Time and Beyond Time

Human existence is by definition in time and space:
“If Christ takes upon Himself...human nature, that means de facto He is going to have a birth...and...die...That is a human life in time and space.” (118:06ff, Fr. Stephen)
But the Resurrected Christ transcends time and space:
“What we see very quickly in the resurrection appearances of Christ is that he is not inhabiting time and space in the same way we do on this side of the resurrection.” (129:24, Fr. Stephen)
“If it’s not bound by time, it’s not bound by time in either direction.” (130:23, Fr. Stephen)
Thus: The humanity the Son received from the Theotokos, post-resurrection, is as present in Eden or to Abraham as it is in 1st-century Judea or at the right hand of the Father.

VII. The Lamb Slain Before the Foundation of the World (Revelation 13:8)

Corrects mistranslation: “the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world” NOT “names written from the foundation...” (135:33–137:45).
St. Paul and St. John everywhere teach that the Incarnation and Cross are not Plan B, nor just events in linear time, but are the basis and purpose of all creation.
- “The incarnation, Christ’s humanity, is a fact of creation. It is the goal, it is the purpose, it is the whole thing.” (140:19, Fr. Stephen)

VIII. Humanity, Deification, and the Cosmic Destiny

Icons: The Creation of Adam
- The icon for this episode (145:05): Christ’s and Adam’s faces are the same — humanity is made “according to” the image of Christ, not vice versa.
- “Baked into the very nature of humanity, is that we are meant to be in Christ." (146:54)
Salvation: More than Afterlife
- “...The destiny of humanity in Christ...is to be...seated in the high places with Him...to become by grace what He is by nature...” (146:56, Fr. Andrew)

IX. Practical/Spiritual Takeaway: Stand in Awe

Fr. Stephen’s plea: “We want to learn things...But I think there’s also an important place, moving past all that work...for awe directed toward God.”
- “That moment...where we stop trying to understand and explain, stop worrying about ourselves...and just sit or stand in wonder at the God who created us and the destiny He created us for. That’s where I’m aiming.” (150:44–153:59)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

On Docetism: “There were people at the end of the first century who Christians had to argue with to say, no, Jesus was human, not just divine.” (21:21, Fr. Stephen)
On the limits of Gnostic analogies: “Just because the Gnostics say matter is evil and thus Jesus didn’t have a body, doesn’t mean any group who says Jesus didn’t have a body thinks matter is evil.” (30:54, Fr. Stephen)
On the Incarnation and change: “God does not change. Pretty clear in the Scriptures...So someone could try to get around that problem by saying, ‘Well, okay...there was no change to Christ’s divine nature when He took on human nature,’ but that doesn’t cut it.” (96:02, Fr. Stephen)
Spicy Take: “Almost no Protestants believe in the virgin birth of Christ...Conservative Protestants believe in the virgin conception of Christ...but they don’t believe that the Theotokos was a virgin after giving birth.” (90:44, Fr. Stephen)
On the significance of icons: “His face and Adam’s face are the same face...It’s Jesus in this icon...This is a very profound icon in light of everything we've just said for the last two and a half hours.” (143:05, Fr. Andrew)
Saintly awe: “I hope there will be that moment of just rapt awe...where we stop trying to understand and explain, stop worrying about ourselves...and just sit or stand in wonder at the God who created us and the destiny that He created us for.” (153:10, Fr. Stephen)

Annotated Timestamps for Key Segments

(03:04) – Framing the main question: Incarnation vs Old Testament theophanies
(15:52–17:24) – Docetism defined; its origin and significance
(22:00–24:59) – Why the NT keeps insisting Christ “came in the flesh”
(41:34) – A simple explanation: Docetism’s Jewish rather than Gnostic roots
(44:43–51:19) – Survey of NT anti-docetical texts
(75:36–88:52) – Old Testament theophanies with striking materiality
(98:00–101:20) – Hypostatic union, confusion over natures/persons, and practical implications
(129:24–131:14) – Christ’s resurrected humanity is not bound by time or space
(135:33–140:55) – “The Lamb slain from the foundation of the world”: cosmic scope of the Incarnation
(143:05–146:54) – The icon of the creation of Adam reveals the unity of humanity and Christ
(150:44–153:59) – Fr. Stephen’s hope: the necessity of awe as a response to the Incarnation

Conclusion

This episode compellingly argues that the Incarnation — God becoming man in Jesus Christ — is both a concrete act in time (the Annunciation/Nativity) and a mystery that transcends time and space, at the center of creation’s plan and purpose “from the foundation of the world.” It cautions against simplistic readings that ignore the lived, material reality witnessed by the Church and the Scriptures, as well as worship traditions and icons which seat Christ at the very heart, beginning, and end of humanity’s story.

Listeners are encouraged not only to wrestle with these profound mysteries intellectually, but to experience awe and gratitude for the Savior who reveals God to us everywhere and at all times, and in whom we find the destiny and meaning of humanity itself.

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