When the Morning Stars Sang

Summary

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The Lord of Spirits: "When the Morning Stars Sang"

Episode Date: December 16, 2025
Hosts: Fr. Andrew Stephen Damick & Fr. Stephen De Young
Podcast Theme: The Seen and Unseen World in Orthodox Christian Tradition
Main Topic: Astrology—Ancient, Biblical, and Christian Perspectives

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Episode Overview

In this rich, sometimes humorous episode, Fathers Andrew and Stephen dig into the origins, meaning, and the shifting theological status of astrology within ancient cultures, Judaism, and Christianity. Drawing on biblical texts, ancient histories, church councils, and calls from listeners, they paint a picture of a cosmos alive with meaning—but also insist on Christian freedom from fatalism and divination. They conclude with a call to embrace salvation as true freedom, not enslavement to fate, other powers, or other people’s voices.

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Section I: What Is Astrology? Ancient Roots and Meanings

Introduction—Setting the Stage

• Opening reflections highlight humanity’s yearning for enchantment beyond materialism, and the persistent allure of spirits, angels, and the unseen.
• Banter about pop culture serves as a springboard to ancient questions about the stars.

[06:37] Defining Astrology (C) Fr. Stephen

“Astrology is the logos of the stars.”

• Astrology: a systematized attempt to discover order, reason, and meaning (logos) in the movement of heavenly bodies.
• Etymology:
  • Astrology—Reason or discourse about the stars.
  • Astronomy—The “law” (nomos) of the stars, with roots in legal notions of order.

“One of my favorite etymologies… the word disaster… means to be against the stars.” (B) Fr. Andrew [07:12]

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Section II: Astrology in the Ancient Near East

[10:12] The Ancient View of the Stars

• Unlike today, ancient people saw breathtakingly star-filled skies that inspired awe and a sense of cosmic order or agency.

[13:44] Proto-Astrology—Origins in Omens

• Babylon: Birthplace of organized astrology; oldest Akkadian texts (c. 19th c. BC) list omens interpreted collectively by priesthood.

“If you just see something weird and go, ‘huh?’ and walk away, it’s not really an omen. But if you wonder ‘what does it mean?’—now it’s an omen.” (C) [16:01]

• Omens ranged from animal entrails to celestial events (eclipses, comets).

[23:03 & 25:14] From Omens to System

• Planetary Deities: Babylonian proto-astrology shifted to assigning gods to visible celestial bodies:
  • Sun = Shamash, Moon = Sin/Nanna, Jupiter, Saturn, etc., each with its deity (Mars = Nergal, Venus = Ishtar, etc.)
  • The word planet (Greek: planetes): “wanderer,” as planets (“wandering stars”) move irregularly compared to the fixed stars.

[29:50] Astrology Proper—Connecting Omens, Planets, and Divine Meaning

• Celestial events were now interpreted as the will or moods of gods, communicated via planetary alignments or anomalies.

[31:30] The Fully-Devised System

• Neo-Babylonian Empire: Systematized zodiac, mapped constellations, and mathematically predicted celestial events.
• Developed concept of 12 major constellations, four “cardinal signs” (man/hunter, ox, eagle, lion)—which echo in Ezekiel’s vision and in Christian imagery of the four Gospels.

[37:53] Distinction: Astrology vs. Astronomy

“The key difference: the idea that there is a deeper spiritual meaning to these motions.” (C)

• Ancient astrology posited not just physical causation, but revelation through the heavens—a “meaning” inaccessible to science.

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Section III: Calendar, Cosmos, and Meaning

[43:12] Astrology & the Calendar

• Ancient calendars (including the Jewish and Julian calendars) rooted in celestial observation—months from lunar cycles, years from solar cycles, festivals linked to astrological order.

“The calendar itself was seen as mediating the heavenly and earthly realms.” (C)

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Section IV: Astrology in the Bible and Judaism

[69:59] Numbers, Tribes, and the Zodiac

• Significant Numbers:
  • 7—Sun, moon, five visible planets = seven “heavens”; lampstand in tabernacle.
  • 12—Twelve tribes of Israel linked to twelve zodiac constellations, especially in Second Temple Judaism.
• Torah Sources:
  • Genesis 49: “Testament of Jacob”—lion (Judah), etc.
  • Numbers 2: Tribes encamped according to the four “cardinal” directions—mirrors Babylonian/zodiacal layout.
• Archaeology:
  • 1st-century synagogues in Galilee bear zodiac mosaics where Jesus would have taught.

“At least by the Second Temple period, the tribes are associated with particular zodiac constellations.” (C) [75:59]

[92:27] Biblical Astrological Language—Psalm 19

“The heavens declare the glory of God…” (B)

• Psalm 19 describes the “line” (ecliptic)—core to astrological calculation.

Jewish vs. Pagan Astrology

• Philo of Alexandria (1st c. BC):
  • Affirmed the heavens are ruled by “powers,” but only as viceroys under God—not as creators or independent agents.

“The rulers aforesaid are not independent…but are the viceroys of the one supreme Being…” (B, quoting Philo) [96:44]

• Distinguishes Jewish astrology as symbolic and communicative (revealing God’s will), not as deterministic, fateful, or worshipful of powers.

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Section V: Why Christianity Rejects Astrology (as Divination)

[105:09] Turning Point—Aquila of Sinope

• Early 2nd c. convert, excommunicated in Rome—not for astrological knowledge, but for practicing astrology (i.e., divination).

[117:17] Early Christian Critiques—Augustine & Chrysostom

St. Augustine [119:13]

• In Confessions and City of God, Augustine rejects astrological determinism:

“The core of St. Augustine’s critique of astrology is going to be that astrology requires fatalism.” (C)

• Observes incompatibility with free will, uses examples (twins, social class).

“St. Augustine explicitly says…God does not determine the will of human beings.” (C) [119:27]

• Argues astrology works only by luck or chance, not actual fate.

St. John Chrysostom [127:45]

• Affirms stars as angels/powers, but condemns giving them independent control; only God is sovereign.
• Warns that interest in astrology leads away from trust in God’s providence.

The Key Theological Development:

• Christianity introduces a robust doctrine of human freedom (will), rooted in a Pauline (and patristic) understanding of “nature” as a shared orientation toward God (theosis).
• Practice of divinatory astrology (predicting fate by stars) is incompatible with this:
  • “The practice of astrology is an ethos of determinism, fatalism, of enslavement to the elemental powers…Christianity is an ethos of freedom.” (C) [141:07]

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Section VI: Calls, Questions, and Memorable Quotes

“Why aren’t the seven archangels associated with the seven classical planets?” (Caller Luke, Montana)
—Because in Jewish/Christian theology, the seven archangels are not a one-to-one match with the roles of star/planetary powers; angelic “order” is a job description, not an individual assignment. [65:32]

“So does [the Bible’s astrological imagery] mean astrology is just completely pagan, or is it incorporated?”
—The Bible uses astrological symbolism—tribes, constellations, ritual calendars—but insists on God as the source of authority and meaning. (C) [70:15]

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Section VII: Final Reflections—True Freedom in Christ

“Christianity is based on human freedom, freedom to become what it is God has made us to be…far from being a weird, esoteric subject, astrology actually goes right to the heart of who we are, what we are trying to accomplish as Christians, and what it is that Jesus did for us.” (B) [147:01]

“Christ has come to set us free—not only from astrology, but from all those voices…whatever destiny they were proposing…those are small fry compared to becoming like Christ.” (C) [154:06]

Takeaway:

• Ancient astrology sought meaning in a cosmos believed to be alive and purposeful; Judaism and Christianity redirected this cosmic meaning as communicative but always subordinate to God.
• Christianity’s innovation: a radical freedom from fatalism—freedom for transformation and theosis in Christ.

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Notable Quotes & Timestamps

| Timestamp | Quote | Speaker | |------------|------------------------------------------------------------------------|---------| | 06:37 | “Astrology is the logos of the stars.” | C | | 07:12 | “Disaster means to be against the stars.” | B | | 25:14 | “The word ‘planet’ is a transliteration of the Greek ‘planetes’, which means a wanderer.” | C | | 29:50 | “They’re reading signals from the gods… actual spiritual beings that are present.” | B | | 92:27 | “The heavens declare the glory of God, and the firmament proclaims his handiwork…” | B (Reads Psalm 19) | | 96:44 | “…the rulers aforesaid are not independent…but are the viceroys of the one supreme Being…” | Philo (quoted by B) | | 119:13 | “The core of St. Augustine’s critique of astrology is going to be that astrology requires fatalism.” | C | | 127:45 | “Any independent power… you are de facto taking that control away from God.” | C | | 141:07 | “Christianity is an ethos of freedom. The practice of astrology… is an ethos of determinism, fatalism, of enslavement to the elemental powers…” | C | | 147:01 | “…the project of Christianity is… an exorcistic project.” | B | | 154:06 | “Christ has come to set us free… even from our fellow human beings, their expectations, and even the expectations and demands that we put on ourselves.” | C |

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Summary Table of Key Segments with Timestamps

| Segment | Main Focus | Time | |----------------------------------------|-----------------------------------------------------------|-----------| | Introduction/Banter | Pop culture, astrology topic intro | 01:06–06:37| | Defining Astrology & Etymology | Logos, Nomos, disaster | 06:37–12:00| | Astrology in Babylon | Omens, planetary gods, Babylonian system | 13:44–34:38| | Calendar and Cosmos | Astrology’s role in calendars and festivals | 43:12–47:11| | Astrology in the OT, Jewish Tradition | Tribes & zodiac, second temple symbolism, Philo | 69:59–98:57| | Key Biblical Texts/Interpretation | Psalm 19, communicative role of the heavens | 92:27–98:44| | Aquila/Fate/Freedom | Early Christian rejection, Aquila excommunicated for divination | 105:09–115:30| | Patristic Arguments | Augustine, Chrysostom, nature of will/freedom | 117:17–140:12| | Calls & Discussion | Interactive Q&A, practical implications | 49:39–68:51| | Final Reflections & Exhortation | Christian freedom vs. fatalism, summary | 141:07–159:09|

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Tone, Style, & Memorable Moments

• Playful, erudite, and packed with cultural and scriptural references—respectful yet gently irreverent regarding both astrology and modern attitudes.
• Frequent dry humor and “deep cut” pop culture references.
• Skilfully weaves ancient, Jewish, and Christian sources, showing their continuities and conflicts regarding the cosmos and destiny.

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Final Word

This episode serves as an exhaustive, entertaining, and theologically grounded survey of astrology’s cosmic claims and the Christian response—a response rooted not in hostility to symbolism or cosmic order, but in a profound liberation from any power, voice, or fate that might deny the radical gift of human freedom in Christ.

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Transcript

[A]

He will be a staff for the righteous with which for them to stand and not to fall. And he will be the light of the nations and the hope of those whose hearts are troubled. All who dwell on the earth will fall down and worship him. And they will praise and bless and celebrate with song the Lord of Spirits the modern world doesn't acknowledge, but is nevertheless haunted by spirits, angels, demons and saints. In our time, many yearn to break free of the prison of a flat secular materialism, to see and to know reality as it truly is. What is this spiritual reality like? How do we engage with it? Well, how do we permeate everyday life with spiritual presence? Orthodox Christian priests, Father Andrew Stephen Damick and Father Stephen DeYoung, who host this live call in show focused on enchantment in creation, the union of the seen and unseen as made by God and experienced by mankind throughout history. Welcome to the Lord of Spirits.

[B]

Greetings, starfighters. You have been recruited by the Star League to defend the frontier against Xur and the Kodan Armada.

[C]

You're listening to the UN you just lit a fuse.

[B]

Really?

[C]

Yes. We're now going to get a horrible remake legacy sequel aimed at the Cobra Kai audience, and then Disney's going to hear about it and they're going to remake Flight of the Navigator.

[B]

And will there be some kind of like, AI version of Robert Preston?

[C]

That'll be probably. Probably. Or they'll get an actor and then do some digital face thing.

[B]

Yep, Yep.

[C]

What have you done?

[B]

Well, I mean, this is what you get when you listen to the 129th episode of the Lord of Spirits podcast. Nevertheless, I am Father Andrew Stephen Damick, and with me is professor and confessor to the stars, Father Stephen DeYoung. And we are live starting in the second half of the show. If you are joining us live, you can call us at 855-237-2346. And if you make it past the great gatekeeper Mike Prince Albert in a can de Gan, you can talk directly to us. It's been exactly 120 episodes since our far famed installment, taught by a star to worship the Son of righteousness back in the long ago days of yore in 2020. So that means that by sheer numerological force, it is required that we finally do a full episode dedicated to astrology.

[C]

So, Father, when we said we're going to come back to this.

[B]

Exactly.

[C]

We're going to come back. We always keep our promises in a multiple of 12.

[B]

So I have a question to start off, Father. And I didn't put this in the script because I didn't want you to have any chance to prepare on this one.

[C]

Like I would anyway. But yeah, go ahead. Like I read your script.

[B]

Tough but fair. So you know before, long before you ever met your wife through World of Warcraft, which for those of you out there, that is true. Did anyone ever attempt to ask you out on a date by asking you what's your sign?

[C]

No.

[B]

Oh, okay.

[C]

I am a decade too young for that.

[B]

That's true.

[C]

I know I read older than I am, but that was much more of a therapy.

[B]

I'm curiosity since this is going around a lot lately. What did your Spotify wrapped give your listening age as?

[C]

I have no idea because I don't listen to music on Spotify.

[B]

Oh, okay. All vinyl.

[C]

No, I actually I am the guy who shells out for YouTube Premium so I don't have to watch ads.

[D]

Oh.

[C]

Which gives me access to YouTube Music. You're the one, I'm the guy who does that. Yeah. And let me just tell you, okay, some of you, some of you kids out there, if you haven't already, you're going to decide, hey, I want to make a reaction channel. I of course cannot make a reaction channel because I have seen all the movies and all the TV shows and heard all the music. But some of you out there, many of you have not. And so you may say, I'm going to start a reaction channel. If you're going to react to things on YouTube in your own YouTube videos, you need to pay for YouTube Premium. Why? You do not need to be skipping ads while you're reacting to videos.

[B]

That's true, that's true.

[C]

That is amateur nonsense.

[B]

Did he literally watch them skipping ads because I don't watch videos.

[C]

Wow. Yes, yes, I have seen this low rent nonsense. Okay, like you got to invest a little in infrastructure if you're starting your own channel. The what, 12 or 15 bucks a month, it won't kill you.

[B]

All the kids out there are feeling very chastised right now.

[C]

Just saying. It's all. Yeah, but anyway, so I got a. I got a YouTube year and wrap up that included all the music I listened to but did not have a listening age.

[B]

Listening age. Yeah. Sound off in the chat, everybody. What are your listening ages?

[C]

Although the algorithm Roland told me his.

[B]

Was like 68 or something like that, whereas mine was 30 because of, as we know, my newfound love for K Pop.

[C]

Yeah, I thought yours was going to be 13 year old girl, but you know, hey, I guess you listen to something else.

[B]

Too. It balances out.

[C]

Yeah, it was that and, like, you know, early medieval English, you know, magic, I mean, or something.

[B]

I mean, I do love a good loot.

[C]

Yeah, the. Yeah, the one eerie thing about my YouTube wrap up is that at the end, it gives you, like, a cryptic horse. See, I'm bringing us back on topic. Horoscope esque.

[B]

You're bringing us back on topic.

[C]

Like, I know how the worm has turned fortune cookie. Like, saying about you. Right. And mine was eerily correct. It said that I was the person in any group most likely to make an obscure movie line reference that no one else would recognize.

[B]

Yes, that is true.

[C]

So the algorithm has wormed its way at least partway, into my blank and soul.

[B]

They know who you are. So what is astrology, Father Stephen?

[C]

Well, astrology is the logos of the stars.

[B]

And I have to throw this out, by the way, since we brought up a little etymology.

[C]

Did somebody say etymology?

[B]

That's right. And I don't even have my jingle on me, man. See, I didn't. You know, this just proves that it really is completely spontaneous. Yeah. I mean, one of my favorite. I don't know why it's so funny. One of my favorite etymologies that I ever learned, which weirdly took me years to actually consider and to figure out on my own, is the word disaster, which is completely related to our. Our topic tonight, because disaster means to be against the stars. You know, add stars. So will this episode be a disaster or not?

[C]

Just by the stars.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah.

[C]

Have you ever done the, you know, hey, did somebody say etymology thing? And they're like, no, we were talking about Beatles entomology. And you had to just kind of go, oh, sorry.

[B]

That has happened. That has happened.

[C]

I figured. I figured. Yeah, but we. So we had to do the first day of biology class. Bios meaning life, and logos, meaning the study of.

[B]

Right.

[C]

But in this case, I'd like say butterfly. That does kind of work. Right. In the sense that astrology is attempting to codify, to reason out, to put together a logos, a discourse, an internal reasoning to the movement of the stars and other heavenly objects. And that's important because there are other similar terms. So. Right. So, yeah, on one hand, there's astronomy.

[B]

Sure.

[C]

Which is a different thing.

[B]

Most people think. I think these days, most people think of astronomy is the science thing that has to do with the stars and planets and whatever else. And astrology is this dumb superstition, you know, that they print in the newspapers and that occasionally, you know, the wives of presidents will consult yes. Yes. There's another second reference from 1984 right there. Yeah. I think that's the way that most.

[C]

You weren't watching Stranger Things, right?

[B]

No, I have not watched Stranger Things. Nope. I was, you know, like you father. I was there.

[C]

Yes, yes, yes.

[B]

Yeah. But only like a month and a half older than I am. No, no. Two and a half months older than I am.

[C]

Yeah. No, yeah. To me, when Stranger Things was good, and I've just implied that maybe it no longer is, much to some people's consternation, it was not the nostalgia factor that was good about it.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

But, yeah, no, the whole just plain nostalgia thing is. Well, I could go off on a whole thing about that, on how depressing that is, but I don't need to bring our audience down more than we already have and already will in this episode.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, I think it's one of the things that a lot of folks here in 2025 may not really realize is that the stars, like, we think we look up and we see a few stars, whatever, maybe a constellation or two, but most of us live in cities. That's statistically true. And even though those of us who live in more rural areas, unless you live in a truly dark area where there's not that much lighting, you never really see the stars the way that premodern people saw them, you know? But if you've ever been in a truly dark area, like a truly dark area, and it's a cloudless sky, and you look up and you see enough stars that you see the Milky Way, for instance, then you can begin to understand why it is that ancient people looking up at this and noticing that it had these patterns and stuff, would be completely fascinated by this. You know, I mean, the stars are absolutely a stunning thing to look at, but the sad irony is that most of us do not see them now.

[C]

Because there's too much ambient light.

[B]

Yeah, there's too much ambient light.

[C]

Unless you're one of the five people in Wyoming.

[B]

You made those people mad when you said that the last time, by the way.

[C]

Did I say that about Wyoming or Montana last time?

[B]

I think it was Wyoming. It was Wyoming again.

[C]

Okay.

[B]

And they were like, hey, don't you mean Montana? I'm pretty sure something like that. Yes. There were posts in our Facebook group about this.

[C]

Well, maybe if I keep stirring this up, they'll go to war and it'll be like a five on five. They can play basketball, pick up a.

[B]

Bit of a skirmish, maybe.

[C]

Yeah. To decide who is greater, who Is the greatest of the great Plains states. But yeah. So astronomy, which is, of course, the nomos of the stars, which we roughly.

[B]

Feel like it should be something out of, you know, what is it? Ming's Chinese Theater. Sounds very Hollywood.

[C]

Man's Chinese Theater.

[B]

Man's Chinese. That's it. Sorry.

[C]

I think the most would be Flash Gordon's opponent.

[B]

Yes. In my head, Flash Gordon is still, like, always rolling.

[C]

Yes.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

So, but the reason for the switch in turn. Right. Is going to become more apparent as we go on tonight. But astronomy. Right. The reason you would change it to nomos is that by the time people started talking about astronomy, nomos had come to be translated commonly as law. And so they were distinguishing their study of the physical laws governing the movement of stars and planets from astrology, which, as we will see, was a more freewheeling this course, shall we say. But also there are some sort of earlier stages of development Right. Before you get to astrology. So even if you are one of those five people in Wyoming and you walk outside your door on this wintry day, Shovel your way out of your home and look skyward. Right. Just looking at the stars and saying, wow, that's beautiful, Is not doing astrology.

[B]

No.

[C]

Right. So there's also pre astrological observations as well as in the case of the science of astronomy, what we might call post astronomical or astrological observations. And so the phenomena, that phenomenon that's going to be called astrology. And the place where we have the best records about this being formed and taking shape in the ancient world is actually in Babylon.

[B]

Surprise.

[C]

We have. Yeah, shocking.

[B]

Come up a lot in this show.

[C]

We have spotty records of it taking shape in various different forms in other ancient near eastern and other ancient cultures. But from what we can tell from those scattered pieces of evidence, it followed a course pretty much everywhere that's broadly similar to how this developed in Babylon. So what would later become what we call astrology really starts with thinking about and talking about omens, not the movies. Because, like, after Christ returns at the end of the third one, how can you make a fourth one? Like, that's kind of it.

[B]

As I say, I assume that's a rhetorical question.

[C]

Yes. Ridiculous. Omen 3, by the way, features Sam Neill as the Antichrist. Most people may not realize.

[B]

Wow.

[C]

The original omen. Yes. Had Gregory Peck in it as the father of the antichrist. And then three had Sam Neill playing the adult antichrist.

[B]

Wasn't Sam Neill. Wasn't he on? Was he the guy in Hunt for October who said, I Would have liked to have seen Montana. See, now it's topical again.

[C]

Yes. It all wraps back around. He was also Jurassic Park.

[B]

Yes, yes, of course.

[C]

And in the Mouth of Madness, which is a great horror movie by John Carpenter. That's a mishmash of HP Lovecraft and Stephen King, if you could imagine such a thing. If you care to imagine such a thing. So, but omens, we're talking about essentially aberrant phenomena. Just omens in general. Right. Are aberrant phenomena. Something unusual happens or is seen or is spotted. Right. And this unusual occurrence or appearance or happening is then interpreted. Right. That's what makes it an omen, is that some interpretation, some importance is ascribed to it. If you just see something weird and go, huh? And walk away, it's not really an omen. Right. But if you see something weird and you go, what does that mean? What was that all about? That was a sign of something. Now it's an omen. Okay? And so we've talked before on the show about ecstasy, which is performed by your local haruspex and involves looking at the entrails of sacrificial animals. And we've talked about how, you know, they would spot certain things like, oh, there's a spot on this part of the liver or on this part of the right kidney that isn't normal for a sheep or a goat or a bull or whatever was being sacrificed or a pig. And so that would then be seen as a sign of something. Same thing is true of things happening in the heavens. So real obvious ones are like solar and lunar eclipses. Right. Those are not normal. They don't have time.

[B]

Everybody knows that. Not just the star nerds.

[C]

Yeah. But then also things like comets, shooting stars, other things like this. Right. Would occasionally be seen by someone and because they were abnormal, some significance was ascribed to them. And we know that this kind of thing was happening in a semi organized way within Babylonian religion as far back as the 19th century BC because we have an Akkadian text from that time that just catalogs a ton of omens, like just a long list of weird things and what they mean. And it's a mix of. This text is a mix of things related to xp, which is why I brought it up as an example. So things you'll see in entrails and things you'll see in the sky. Right. And it's just a long, long list of catalog. And this means there's going to be a bad harvest. This means there's going to be war. This means you should Move in, you know, the people should move in this direction or that direction. This means that you need to store up extra for the winter, et cetera, et cetera, on and on and on. Right. This means there's going to be wild animals attacking your livestock. But so the importance of the text is not just that, oh yeah, people were doing this then, because we know people were doing it. But that they compiled such a text implies that they were doing it in a kind of organized way. That there was some kind of literate priesthood who was sort of assigned with compiling this list and then interpreting omens when they happened for the culture. Right. So this is sort of an embedded cultural thing. By that point it was seen as just something you do. Right. Like, you know, checking your. I was about to say checking your voicemail, but I don't. Kids these days probably don't do that anymore.

[B]

Now they feel offended if you actually call them on the phone, looking at.

[C]

Your skibidi riz on the tweet talks or whatever you kids do.

[B]

Supposed to mention 6, 7 or.

[C]

I don't even know.

[B]

Does anyone know what that. I think what it means is that it doesn't mean anything.

[C]

No, I could totally explain that to you, but I'm not going to do that now. That's fine because that would be too big of a digression even for this show. Yeah, it has to do with rap music and basketball. Two of your favorite things.

[B]

I mean, a lot of my ethnic countrymen play. Play the basketballs.

[C]

Yes. You not so much. So you are tall enough. Well, everyone assumed that because I'm tall I could play basketball.

[B]

And it's like I had back problem. I had back problems as a teenager. So I did, I used to play basketball, but I, I stopped. So there you go. A little bit of the history of me.

[C]

Yeah, I was, I was pretty much right out. Unless they did professional horse. We got a professional horse league. Maybe I could. Okay.

[B]

I mean, it would not have left enough time for your. Your award winning ballroom dancing.

[C]

Right, right. Which was, you'd think, being relatively light on my feet, you know, that I could have done the whole. But no, did not translate. Although another fun fact. In high school, I lettered in volleyball.

[B]

And I see your letter jacket.

[C]

Huh?

[B]

Do you have a letter jacket, Father? Yes.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Wow.

[C]

I gave it to my wife.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Oh, another nice reference there.

[B]

That's great.

[C]

Yeah. But yeah. And volleyball was invented as a game to help people practice for basketball. So all the signs were there that I should have been good at basketball, but I Was never any good at basketball anyway, moving on. I'm also, I'm also not good at rapping, which I know shocks everyone, but.

[B]

We'D still like recordings of, of that.

[C]

There probably are some. I do mic checks. I, I rap on mic checks. You've heard me do that.

[B]

That is true. Yeah.

[C]

But. So this is our first stage in our proto, proto astrological discourse is just omens, there being a category of omens that take place in the sky involving the sun, moon and stars. So the next phase, and even here we're not really at astrology proper, but a few centuries later in Babylon, we have a more defined system. And the key thing that has changed in this system is that the sun and the moon and the planets, all five of them have been identified with particular gods. And this stage is actually before the stage we've talked before on the show, way back in the ninth episode that we already mentioned and in a couple of other episodes, like about Abraham and some of the things that of course, the stars were identified with the gods by the nations and with angelic beings, lowercase G gods in Jewish literature, including the Old Testament and New Testament. But this is actually before we get to the stars. And it's the sun, moon, the five planets, those five planets being Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter and Saturn. Because those are the ones people could spot with their naked eye observation. We're pre telescopes by millennia. And so those five, the sun and the moon, become identified with gods. And why those seven objects? Well, here's some more etymology for those who don't know already. The word planet is a transliteration of the Greek planetes, which means a wanderer.

[B]

Yeah, as those stars. Because I mean, to the naked eye they just look like stars, you know, maybe big stars in some cases, but they don't follow the same kind of cyclic paths perfectly that the rest of the stars do.

[C]

Right. If you're assuming, as all ancient people did, that the Earth is stationary. Right. Then you have stars that sort of circle around overhead over the course of the year. And then you have the sun and the moon and the planets that sort of wobble around.

[B]

Right.

[C]

All over the place. If you're tracking them from the perspective of a human standing on Earth, meaning those irregular movements. Remember what we were saying about omens? It was the aberrant things that you notice. Right. And so these seven objects are different than all the other lights in the sky.

[B]

Right.

[C]

The sun and the moon, most obviously. But then even once you've done some more observations, these five planets move differently than the other lights in the sky. And so what happens is they combine this identification of those seven objects with the gods with their preceding view of omens. And so now we're going to reference. Okay, here is the omen, here is the unusual thing in the sky. And that unusual thing in the sky was related in some way to the sun or the moon or to one of the planets in terms of where it was in the sky or the path it took. Right. And so then the omen. Now whatever the omen is indicating is going to be tied directly to the God who they've identified with the sun or the moon or the planet. Right. So to get into more particulars, in Mesopotamian proto astrology, here, the sun is obviously identified with Shamash, right? The sun God, who's. Which is literally the word for sun in all of the Semitic languages.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Right. The vowels change because it's Semitic languages, but the consonants are the same. And then the moon God is Sin if you're Akkadian, or Nana if you're Sumerian. And then the planets Jupiter, Saturn, Mercury, Venus and Mars were identified with Marduk, Ninurta, Nabu, Ishtar, and Nergal, respectively. And if you track with that, or if you do a little slow this down and repeat it and do a little digging, you'll find that, not coincidentally, Jupiter, Saturn, Mercury, Venus and Mars, the Roman gods, who we named the. Who we now name those planets after, roughly coincide with the ancient Near Eastern gods who they were originally identified with.

[B]

Yeah, right.

[C]

Like Ishtar and Venus and Marduk and Jupiter. Right. And so if you see, you know, say you spot a comet, right. And the comet's tail is pointing at Jupiter. Right. This was taken to be a sign of Marduk's comportment toward you and your civilization. Right. And then you would consult the texts, or the priests would consult the texts to determine exactly what that meant in terms of, does this mean he's angry, happy, peeved about to take some poor human woman as a bride? Right. What exactly is he up to? But the omen in this guy is now tied directly to a God who has been directly connected to an entity in the heavens.

[B]

Yeah. Which is. I mean, this is very different in a lot of ways from the way that people think of astrology now, where they're like, well, the, you know, the stars and the planets, they. They have an influence on your life. This is that they're reading signals from the gods, you know, who do have an influence in your life as far as they're concerned. You know, These are actual spiritual beings that are present with them and that they're communing with and, you know, all that kind of stuff.

[C]

Right, right. And so the shift is, right, previously they would have said, oh, we saw this comet. That means there's going to be famine. Now they would say, oh, we saw this comet. Its tail was pointing at Marduk, therefore Marduk is mad at us and is going to send a famine, essentially. Right. But so this is. We're getting closer to what we could call astrology now. Right. And we have an even more systemized text called the Enuma Anu enlil from the 16th century BC. So this is, give or take three centuries after the previous text we mentioned that lays all this out in voluminous detail, matches up all the omens with all the celestial objects that they could be related to and what each instance means. It's like thousands of lines of text.

[B]

Kind of decoder ring.

[C]

Yeah. Unbelievable amount of detail. Right, yeah. So again, this was not something they just made up when they wrote that text. This is the codification of observations and things that had been going on for centuries, for generations. Now, to get a sort of fully devised astrological system in Babylon, we have to wait until the Neo Babylonian Empire because of course, the Bronze Age collapse happens. That sort of sets things back. People are obviously still looking at the sky, they're still looking at omens, they're still doing some of these things. But in terms of it being sort of systematized, there being a logos of it. Right. For astrology, that doesn't really happen again until we get to the Neo Babylonian Empire. And they have a fully devised system. And the way theirs worked is much. You can already see things that make it roughly similar to modern astrology. For example, the stars and constellations with their regular movement are sort of treated like a board game board or like a map. Right. Because by this point, they have charted out their courses with some exactitude and were able to make accurate predictions about the movements of constellations and stuff going far into the future. And so they have all that mapped out the regular movements of sort of the general stars and constellations. They have specific constellations mapped out. They have four cardinal signs. Right. Four cardinal constellations, and they're called cardinal constellations because they are related to the cardinal directions, north, south, east and west. At the new year, there are four animals. We've mentioned this before on the show because the four constellations are a man, actually a hunter, an ox, an eagle and a lion.

[B]

Yep. And probably sound very familiar. To some of you, but we'll get to that.

[C]

Yes. Well, what. We can touch on it here.

[B]

Right, yeah, that's true. Okay, so that's all.

[C]

You may remember them from Ezekiel.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. And. And then also there's the whole identification of those with the four gospel writers. I mean, you see this in iconography. It's very common on icons of Christ, the great high priest, he's enthroned. And then you see the. The four living creatures and, you know, as the gospel writer images. So.

[C]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

I mean, this. This is astrological stuff, you guys.

[C]

Yes. And so Ezekiel sees the throne of God on top of these four living creatures who are angelic beings who are constellations. The idea is that God is enthroned above the heavens. Right. So there are the powers of the heavens, right? These stars and planets and these beings. And then God is enthroned up above them. Right. Is the idea. And enthroned on them. And we say this liturgically all the time. Christ, who is seated upon, or enthroned upon the cherubim. We say it all the time. That's what that's talking about. And so in addition to those four cardinal signs, there are two on either side of each of them. So you've got 12 primary constellations. So you've got something like a zodiac by this point in that. You've got this map of the. These 12 primary constellations. And then you have the sun, moon, and the planets still, the five planets moving through them.

[B]

Right.

[C]

Wandering through them, following their own paths. And then you have various omens showing up in various ones. Right. And so the confluence of those relationships is what's getting interpreted by the time you get to astrology proper. So where is this planet right now? In relationship to what constellation? In relationship to whatever omen we may have seen recently. Right. All of those things get brought together. And we also, at this point, have sort of fully brought to bear Babylonian mathematics, which is what allowed them to do this, so that they're able to make accurate predictions not only about the fixed constellations and where they'll be in the future, but they've even charted out relative to Earth in weird squiggly lines, the paths of the planets. Right. And the sun and the moon in different seasons. Right. And are able to make future predictions based on past, past observations. Now, you may be wondering, well, if that's true, if they're using math, right, and they're making predictions, and those predictions are turning out accurately, et cetera, et cetera, why are you saying, well, now we're at astrology instead of now we're in astronomy. Right. Like, isn't that what astronomy does? Isn't that what all science does is make. Use past observations in mathematics to make future predictions and check them out. Right. Like, the difference is. The key difference here is the idea that there is a deeper spiritual meaning.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

To these motions.

[B]

It's not just where the stars and the planets are going to be.

[C]

It's.

[B]

What does that mean? Especially, like, one way. I'm not saying this is the only way. One way of understanding the phrase from the Lord's Prayer on Earth as it is in heaven is this idea that there's a reflection of. Of in the heavens, of what there's.

[C]

A regularity or will happen on Earth. The stars keep their nomos and we don't.

[B]

Right.

[C]

Keep. Keep the one that's been given to us. Yes. So, yeah, it is. It is that level of meaning that moves it into. Moves it into astrology. Right. And out of the realm of the science of astronomy in the sense of modern science. Right. Because modern science, this is worth repeating a lot. Modern science cannot weigh in on meaning questions. Yeah. Modern science can tell you how things work. It can't tell you why they work that way or what that means of anything or whether it's good or bad that they're that way.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, that requires at least philosophy, but probably theology.

[C]

Yes. Those are other fields other than science. Science can do lots of great things. Right. But it can't do that. Math could do lots of great things. Okay. But math can't tell you. Can tell you lots of things about a rose. It can't tell you why it's beautiful. Yeah. And so this astrological system is going beyond just, oh, hey, look, isn't this cool? We figured out how the stars move. Right. It's gone beyond that, too. Here's why they move in this way, and here's what it means when particular things happen. And here's how the cycles of the heavens are related to cycles on Earth that we would now say scientifically are not strictly connected to them. Right. There's, of course, you know, you could. Somebody will bring, you know, the moon's connected to the tides. It absolutely is. The position of Venus relative to Scorpio does not affect crop yields.

[B]

What?

[C]

That's what I'm talking about when I say not directly related.

[B]

Right, right.

[C]

And as we all know from the incredible movie Moonfall, the moon is hollow and fake. Great movie. Great movie.

[B]

Really?

[C]

No, terrible. It's Absolutely terrible. It is ridiculous. Yes, it is ridiculous. I will just go ahead and spoil it. The moon starts to fall toward the Earth. Right. So this is like ultimate disaster movie time. Right.

[B]

See, there you go. Disaster. See, it all comes around.

[C]

Yes. Ultimate disaster movie. And so they take a space shuttle to the moon and discover it's a giant, hollow alien machine. And they have to connect to its computer and reboot the moon to get it to go back into its place.

[B]

Now I just want to watch it as, like, a comedy movie.

[C]

Yeah, well, no, I. I watched. I forget what plane flight it was. Oh, yes, it might have been flew to London. I watched Moonfall and Morbius back to back.

[B]

Wow.

[C]

Just.

[B]

They're just, you know, just flipping through alphabetically. The next movie.

[C]

The next movie. No, I just. I said I want to find the two words worst movies on this list and watch them. And I succeeded both in finding the two worst movies and watching them. Morbius made the happening look like Shakespeare. Like, halfway through that movie, I think Matt Smith realized he was in a horrible movie. And so they would give him these long speeches of expository dialogue to deliver. And he literally would just randomly start dancing for no reason in the scene while delivering the speech. Like, I think he just realized it was bad. It was like, I need to signal the audience for help. Like, I signed the contract. I can't get out of it.

[B]

One of our YouTube. Can't believe that you didn't walk off the plane after watching that.

[C]

Yes, well, I don't buy into astrology. I will say if the moon starts heading directly for the Earth, that is a bad sign. And I don't think taking a space shuttle there and rebooting it will help. So the biggest place where astrology comes to bear in the ancient world in general, not just the ancient near east that we usually don't think about, is the calendar. In fact, most ancient calendars are inextricably linked to astrology.

[B]

Even the Julian Calendar.

[C]

Even the Julian calendar created by great pagan emperor Saint Julius Caesar. Decades before the birth of Christ. Yes.

[B]

Now you're not ruining Sunday school. You're ruining a certain kind of rigorous catechism. Yes.

[C]

Like the Sadducees are the ones who use the Julian calendar like, dun, dun, dun, dun. Yes, like the most obviously corrupt people in the religious world of the first century were the ones using the Julian calendar. So because the ultimate origin of the calendar is all directly related to heavenly movements. Right. So think about the fact that months are based on the lunar cycle. Solar years is actually an Ancient thing. Right. Even. Even civilizations. Ancient civilizations that were on a 360 day calendar of just 1230 day months realized that that didn't actually match up to the solar cycle.

[B]

Sure.

[C]

And so they would add days and add whole months every few years. Like on the Jewish calendar.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

If the Pharisees were using. Right. So they understood this long before even they started using necessarily solar calendars. But solar calendar was invented, as we've said before, according to the Sumerian kings list, like the seventh king before the flood came up with the solar calendar. They considered it ancient already, but so this is based on the cycles of the sun and moon. Right. And so the calendar gives structure to human life on Earth. And so the calendar itself was seen as this mediating factor between what's going on in the heavens with the gods and what's going on on Earth with humans. In another five years, we could do a follow up on this and do more about calendars.

[B]

There's a bunch of people in Montana right now that are celebrating that. You just promised five more years of the podcast.

[C]

Yes. Well, all five of them could throw a party for those five years. So the cycle of feasts. Right. The calendar was seen as itself being a sort of mediator between the heavenly realm and the earthly realm in order to attempt to create parody. The Jewish cycle of feast of the Old Testament is fundamentally different than that.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

But like I said, that is a topic for a distant future episode. Yeah. So that's sort of the short version of the development of astrology. And here at the end of this first half, we have something that kind of resembles, at least in its broad strokes, the way astrology is done by practitioners even to this very day, that it's a question of charting the movements of the sun and moon and planets vis a vis the 12 constellations that make up the zodiac disk, and then ascribing particular meaning to various confluences and events. And so something very like the modern version is already in place by the time we're in, like the 6th century B.C.

[B]

All right, well, with that framework laid out, we're going to go ahead and take our first break. And we'll be right back.

[A]

Father Andrew Stephen Damick and father Stephen DeYoung will be back in a moment to take your calls on the next part of the Lord of Spirits. Give them a call at 855-237-2346. That's 855-AF-RADIO.

[E]

Poised between east and west, between Orthodox and Catholic Lithuania, the last of Europe's pagan nations did not forget its ancient tales such as that of the giantess Neringa Eglay, Queen of Serpents and the Iron wolf. Rather, they fulfilled and enriched enriched them with legends like the hill of Crosses and the miracle working icon of Our lady of the Gate of the Dawn. In the Wolf and the Cross, Father Andrew Stephen Damick and Deacon Seraphim Richard Rowland take a very personal pilgrimage into a land where history and legend have met and fused, where orthodox Christians have lived as a minority for nearly seven centuries. Their faith founded upon the blood of martyr and the witness of dozens of saints. To find this book and others like it, you can go to store.ancientfaith.com again that is store.ancient faith.com.

[A]

We'Re back now with the Lord of Spirits with Father Andrew Stephen Damick and Father Stephen DeYoung. If you have a question, call now at 855-237-2346. That's 855-AF-RADIO.

[B]

Hey, welcome back everybody. You're probably going to believe this, Father Stephen, but we have pretty much a full call board now. Suddenly people are interested in this topic.

[C]

It turns out clearly it's the dawning of the Age of Aquarius.

[B]

So our first caller is Trevor, who is in Oregon, which is one of the five states that I have not yet visited. It's not on purpose. I'm not avoiding Oregon just like I'm not avoiding Arkansas. I just haven't gotten there yet. So please accept my apologies. Trevor.

[D]

Hi, can you hear me?

[B]

Yes, Father. Blessed God bless you. Welcome, Lord of Spirits podcast.

[D]

Thank you very much. I had a quick question. The fifth Ecumenical Council seems to prohibit teaching that the sun, moon and stars are rational beings. I was wondering if that had an influence on orthodox theology, on astrology.

[B]

So what is that all about, Father Stephen? What exactly does it say there at the fifth Ecumenical Council regarding the sun and the moon and the stars being, what do you say, rational beings?

[C]

Yeah. Well, you are tracking with us, so we are going to get to what happens with Christianity and astrology later on.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

So what they are trying to do, right, is they are trying to differentiate between spirits that may be associated with a thing and the thing itself, as it were.

[B]

Yeah. The actual anathema says if anyone shall say that the sun, the moon and the stars are also reasonable beings and that they have only become what they are because they turned towards evil, let him be anathema. That's what it says. Which follows on on a big long anathema about. Yeah. Referencing various levels of angels and, and all this kind of stuff.

[C]

Right. So this is. Yeah, so that's. That is specifically a gnostic thing.

[B]

Right.

[C]

So you have to. You have to remember the Gnostic idea is that things have. Or being spirits have fallen to varying degrees. And the degree to which they have fallen. Right. Because they're really all. There's really a sort of monad, monadic view. Everything is really originally and ultimately one. But the. The degree to which things have fallen is the degree to which they participate in materiality.

[B]

Yeah, I mean, I, you know, if you read. So these are the anathemas against origin. I'm looking at them right now. If you read the one that's immediately before this, which this one seems to be referencing, like, there's the logical connection between them. It starts out by saying, if anyone shall say that the creation of all reasonable beings includes only intelligences without bodies and altogether immaterial, having neither number nor name, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. In other words, like, if. If the creation is ultimately just sort of spiritual, you know, that if that's the claim, then that's. That's anathema. Because it. Later on the. That that line actually goes on to say that, no, they have. They have bodies. You know, there's this connection with. With actual bodies.

[C]

Right. And so. So the idea would be that there were all these spirits. They fell to varying degrees. Humans fell farther than like the sun, moon and stars.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Right. Because they're like celestial beings. And then humans fell farther because we're more material, we're more earthen than material. And then like the earth itself, you know, inanimate, what we would call inanimate objects fell the farthest. Right. Some things fell to being irrational animals. That's what's being condemned there. So there's a differentiation being made. The problem is not saying God has angelic beings that govern the movements of the cosmos, or there are angelic beings and saints who are patrons of places and things on earth. The problem is making this, number one, direct identification between the two. And then secondly, this idea that it's fallen into materiality so the moon is itself. It would be like saying the moon is itself an angel, but it's a fallen angel. And, you know, it's a fallen angel because it's become material.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, this whole series of anathemas is about originism, you know, and all of the kind of problems related to that. So.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Does that make sense?

[C]

Elements of that would affect Mormonism, frankly.

[B]

Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. So, all right. Hopefully that answers your question, Trevor.

[D]

Yes, thank You.

[B]

Great. All right, we're going to move on now to. We've got another question from someone in a state where you probably can see the stars pretty well, as long as you're not in Phoenix. And that's Zach in Arizona. Zach, welcome to Laura Spears podcast.

[D]

Father's Blessed.

[B]

God bless you.

[C]

Are you in Phoenix and. Or Tucson and. Or Flagstaff?

[D]

I am in Phoenix. So no stars I can see. Not a single star in the sky right now.

[C]

Phoenix proper or like Mesa or Tempe?

[D]

Yeah, yeah, proper.

[C]

Okay.

[B]

Well, I mean, that's a city that could not exist without air conditioning. I'm just putting that out there.

[D]

That's what I do for a living.

[B]

So that job security right there I went. You know, we had. We had our archdiocese convention in Phoenix a couple of years ago in July, and I remember going outside and I could feel this breeze coming, and I thought, oh, it's nice. It's a breeze. Nope, nope. It's 118 degrees. It's an oven. It's opening an oven. That's what it is.

[D]

Yeah.

[B]

There ought to be a law, Zach. I don't know.

[C]

You know, you guys, it's a dry heat. It's a dry heat.

[B]

An oven is a dry heat. Father Stephen, I've spent a lot of.

[C]

Time in Phoenix at different times, so.

[B]

All right, so what's your question, Zach, before we rag on your weather anymore.

[D]

My question was about. It's kind of follows up with that last question nicely, but it was about the Book of Enoch. And in the Book of Enoch, there's obviously a lot made of astrology and the stars and the patterns. But one of the things I was curious about is when Enoch talks about the. He's obviously talking about the seven planets and the sun and the moon, and he calls them wandering stars. And then St. Jude refers back to that. What do you think the validity is with that? Like, why that those particular ones are out of balance? Is this. Is there any validity to that? And, like, what's going on there, I guess is my question.

[B]

That is definitely a question for you, Father.

[C]

Yeah, so, yeah, well, the wandering stars has to do with the planets thing, that their motion didn't ascribe right to the other ones. And Enoch is also referencing the fact that, as we've mentioned, for centuries, by that time, those celestial bodies have been associated with particular social bodies, are associated with particular pagan gods, who, of course, they considered to be fallen spirits. Right. And so. And this in some detail. Right. There's a journal article. The title's not going to come to me. That's talking about whether Helel ben Shakar in Isaiah, that gets translated as Lucifer, star of the Morning by St. Jerome about it, talking about Enlil, but it gets into the astrology of it. So there's astrology in there, too. The reason. That the sort of inverted star, like the pentagram shape, comes to be associated with the devil is that that is roughly the path. If you assume the Earth is stationary and you map the path of Venus in the sky, it roughly traces a star shape like that. It looks more like the elder sign in Lovecraft. It's not like a perfect star. It's, like, wobbly to the side, but basically. Right. That's how that symbol coast to get associated with it. And so I think that's what that is aimed at. Both enoch's reference and St. Jude's reference back to it is sort of doubling down on what the pagans are. The pagans are associating these with their gods, and it's like, yeah, look, they're wandering. They're disordered. They're not following the nomos.

[B]

Right.

[C]

That the other stars follow, and that sort of being symbolic of them being demons. And of course, St. Jude is comparing false teachers to fallen angels. Right. Who are out to make a following for themselves and pull people away from God the same way that those fallen spirits did in the form of the pagan gods.

[B]

The. Does that help, Zach?

[D]

Yeah, that's definitely helpful because I was just always wondering, because there's obviously something with the fact that there's these seven, and every major culture makes a big deal out of it, and then Enoch comes at it from a different perspective. So I was just trying to understand.

[B]

That a little more.

[D]

But, yeah, that's helpful.

[B]

All right, thank you very much for calling. We're going to talk now to Monica from Connecticut. So, Monica, welcome to the Lord of Spirits podcast.

[D]

Can you hear me?

[B]

We can hear you. Where. Where in Connecticut are you, if I may ask?

[C]

Connecticut's not that big.

[F]

It's not that big. I'm. I'm in Milford.

[B]

You're in Milford. All right, well, I mean, my dad is from Southington.

[D]

Oh, really?

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I've been in your neighborhood many, many times. Yeah. Yep. My great uncle is buried in New Haven. Well, near New Haven, but, yeah. Yeah. So. All right, well, we've got an actual Yankee calling, so welcome. What's on your mind, Monica from Connecticut?

[F]

So I had always thought of astrology. Like, it always seems like a little BS silly to me, but I know People who are really into it. And I always thought, like, the credence that I, I would give it is like, okay, well, if you're born in like, the dead of winter and your first year on Earth is the experience of, like, everybody miserable and cold and then the world getting better and then it becoming miserable and cold again, that's like a really different experience from somebody who's like, born in the middle of summer and everything is wonderful and then it gets miserable and cold and then it gets one. You know what I mean? And so I feel like that, that, like, isn't this all just kind of like, correlation is not causation when we're talking about, like, where the stars are and like what. Like, it makes sense as like a clock and there, you know, if we're talking broader astrology too, like, it kind of does make sense that like, that humanity, we move, we have seasons, you know, even if we don't notice it all the time. And the stars are in their patterns because everything that's. That's the pattern. I don't know, maybe I'm not articulating this very well, but that's just like my sense of it. And I was wondering if you could comment on it.

[B]

I think I have a sense of what you're. What you mean. I mean, I don't. Honestly, I don't know if there's any. Anything that could be shown from. About how humans, I don't know, human personality based on their initial experience of the weather. I don't know. I mean, if you're a tiny baby, you're probably not dealing with, you know, the dead of winter very much if your mother is. And father are doing their job. But, and I mean, we're going to actually get to this a little bit, especially in the third half of this episode. This, this question about, you know, when, what time of year you were born and so forth, what effect that has on you. But like, I, for instance, share a birthday with Rebecca De Mornay, Elliot Gold and Michael Jackson and John McCain. But I don't think that we have a lot in common, several of us, personality wise. Oh, also Archbishop Michael of New York and New Jersey. We have the same birthday as well.

[C]

Other than you and Michael Jackson, I see no connections whatsoever. Thanks a lot. Hey. He made thriller. Thriller.

[B]

So, yeah, I mean, okay, yes. The idea that the movement of the stars and the planets and so forth provide this kind of conceptual framework. The ancient world. Absolutely, absolutely. That's definitely a lot of what's going on using that as some kind of predictive, divinizing, not divinizing, divination technique or something like this, or as we just heard, this idea that it has to do with specific gods and their attitude towards you and so forth. Um, yeah, that's, that's, that's not identical to just simply having the, you know, the, the movements of the heavens be part of the, your framework for understanding the world and how it all works together and what it means, you know. Now you can put those things together. Obviously many cultures have, but you don't have to. But we're going to get more into that as we go. So does that make sense, Monica?

[F]

Yes.

[D]

Thank you.

[B]

Very good. Okay, we're going to take one more call before we move on.

[C]

That whole born in the dead of winter thing might go a long way to explaining why the Dutch are the way we are.

[B]

That's true. Your winter is on the lengthy side compared to a lot of the world. Yeah, we have an angry caller from Montana. Probably sick of all of our Montana and Wyoming related jokes. So, Luke, are you here to. To tell off Father Stephen the few?

[F]

Yeah, I'm here.

[B]

All right, tell him off. Tell him what you think of all of his, his depopulation jokes.

[D]

Oh, you guys, I don't really get the jokes much.

[B]

It's okay. It's okay. What's. What is on your mind, Luke from Montana?

[D]

So I had a question about, you know, because in the Bible and Christian tradition, the angels are the start.

[F]

There's a.

[D]

There's a strong connection between the angels and the stars. So if that's the case, like, why isn't there a. Why aren't there particular connections between angels and stars, if you know what I mean? Like, why aren't the seven archangels associated with the seven classical planets?

[B]

Yeah, I mean, isn't that kind of what C.S. lewis does in the space trilogy? As I recall, he has this. Makes these connections.

[C]

Something like that.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's been a little bit since I read it, but so, so, yeah. What's. What's the deal? Is this another, you know, wait until the third half kind of thing?

[C]

Partially. The identification of the seven archangels with the. Directly with the seven planets. Right. The number seven is. Bears significance. There is a connection with the number itself. But in terms of this one is Michael, this one's Gabriel, this one's Uriel, et cetera. Right. It's just one that doesn't really happen in Jewish theology at any point. And the reason I slowed down is I'm just sort of double checking in my brain trying to think if I can think of anything like that. Yeah. And I think the reason it doesn't happen is that. So the term archangel is used in two different ways. There is a rank of angels called archangels. Right. It's the second lowest rank. There's angels, archangels. And then you work your way up. There are thousands of angels in that rank of archangels. Okay. The seven archangels. Is archangel being used differently? It's being used more like the way we talk about someone being made an arch priest or an archdeacon. We're saying these are the seven top angels, but the seven top angels are not from the order of archangels. So, for example, if you read the text for the feasts of St. Michael, they identify him as a seraphim. Right. And even though traditionally the devil was one of the archangels, Was one of the seven archangels, we're told in Ezekiel that he was a cherubim. He was a cherub. So, yeah. So archangel gets used differently. And so I think that's why, whereas there's a class of angels, when you find Jewish and early Christian writers writing about the angelic beings who are associated with the stars, they usually associate them with the powers, the powers of heaven. That's the rank to which they ascribe them. And the seven archangels are generally not considered to be of that rank. And the ranks, remember, are not ranks. Like you get promoted, like getting moved off of fries to patties at McDonald's.

[B]

It's getting your wings.

[C]

Yeah, no, it's their job description, the job they're assigned to. And so the idea is that the seven archangels governing planets is not the job they're assigned to. So even though there is a connection with the number seven, it's not that direct to, like, each one of those associated with one of the seven archangels.

[B]

Yeah. There's not a one to one correlation. I hope that helps. Luke from Montana.

[D]

Yeah, I think so.

[B]

All right, very good. Thank you very much for calling. All right, well, here in the second.

[C]

Half, are each of the seven residents of Montana associated with the seven count? One of the seven counties that comprise Montana.

[B]

I would have liked to have seen Montana. Yeah. So we kind of, in the first half laid out. I shouldn't say kind of. We laid out in the first half the sort of framework for astrology that's particularly in the ancient era.

[C]

We did it and we did it with alacrity.

[B]

That's right. And aplomb, as it were. But now we're going to talk about astrology in the Old Testament, astrology and Judaism. So now it's going to get maybe slightly uncomfortable for some people. But we did already kind of tip our hands with that Ezekiel stuff, so it's not like we're making this up. So. Yeah. What. What is up with that? I mean, there's. There's some obvious numbers that would seem to go with zodiac. Like there's twelves in various places. Yes.

[C]

What's up with that?

[B]

Yeah, yeah. I mean, so. So. So what is. I mean, is there. Is there a. An Israelite astronomy, astrology? Is that a thing?

[C]

Yes.

[B]

Yeah. But so how does it. How does it work? What does the math look like? Yeah, yeah.

[C]

So one of the. One of the first places we see this is with certain significant biblical numbers. Okay, okay. So we talked about the number seven, right? That sun, moon, five planets, right? And so those seven come to represent the seven bodies in the heavens, sometimes the seven heavens. Right. Let's take it even more literally than that. That sort of each one of those bodies presides over a quote unquote layer of the heavens, a sphere, as it were. That, of course, presupposes that you, like everyone for the last 2500 years knows that the Earth is a sphere. But.

[B]

Wait, what?

[C]

Yes, I know. Oh, there's always somebody. There'll be somebody in the YouTube comments.

[B]

I know, I know.

[C]

How dare you mock flat Earthers. So, Right. But. So that number, the seven of them, seven, then becomes a number that signifies sort of totality, the totality of the cosmos. Right. The totality of the universe, the totality of creation. Right. And you find that right away on page one of your Bible with the seven days of creation. Right. God creates the heavens and the earth in seven days. So then because of that, you have seven days of the week in the. We talked about this in the episode where we talked about the tabernacle. In the tabernacle, you have the lamp stand with seven lights. The reason it has seven lights is that the tabernacle, remember, is a microcosm of the heavenly tabernacle.

[B]

Right?

[C]

Of the place where God dwells in the heavens that Moses entered into atop Mount Sinai, that is then reconstructed on Earth. It is itself sort of an icon, so that when people enter into it, they are entering into the place where God dwells in the heavens. So you see, the number seven right away continues to carry the sort of astrological significance in the Bible. The other number, of course, that gets carried over that has clear astrological significance is 12. The most obvious form of that there are actually a bunch of twelves in the Bible, even in just the Old Testament or the Hebrew Bible. But the most prominent one obviously is the twelve tribes of Israel. And in we can say for certain that by the time you get to Second Temple Judaism, that not only is the number of the tribes, that is there are 12 tribes, there are 12 major constellations in the zodiac. Not only are those broadly considered to be connected in terms of number, like we were just talking about with the seven archangels, but they're taken to be directly related in the sense that by the Second Temple period, the tribes are associated with particular constellations in, in the heavens. And the sources, the, the Second Temple sources, era sources we have. So we're talking about second temple, we're talking about post exilic. So beginning roughly 515 BC through the end of the first century AD, those sources, when they talk about this, when they ascribe and connect the tribes to the constellations of the zodiac, they point to two major passages of the Torah. One of those is, and we've talked about this at least in brief, we've at least mentioned this before before on the show. One of Those is Genesis 49, which is the story of what we've called the Testament of Jacob, where Jacob gathers his 12 sons and speaks sort of prophetic words to them, not so much about them individually, but about the tribes that will be descended from them in the future. And in a number of those, there are particular animals who are associated. The imagery of those animals is used to describe prophetically that tribe. The most famous and obvious one of these, the one that sort of everyone knows about, is the connection between Judah and the lion.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, right.

[C]

That's just the most everyone knows that one. The other passage is one that's a little less well known. And I don't know that we've talked about on this show at least before. And that is Numbers, Chapter two.

[B]

Everybody'S probably most favorite book of the Bible.

[C]

So you've waded through that census data and now you get to the cool part, which is the way the tribes were laid out their tents when they made camp in the wilderness. So I can tell everyone is excited.

[B]

Yeah, There's a lot of excitement in the chat over these census data and the relative real estate.

[C]

Yes. In the, in the camp. Right. But if you read Numbers two, you'll see that the way it is laid out is actually the way the Babylonian zodiac was laid out, Meaning there are four cardinal tribes. It describes four tribes. Judah, Reuben, Ephraim and Dan. Right. Who are. Dan is north, Reuben is east, Ephraim is west, Judah is south. They also know that corresponds to where they're going to settle in the land too.

[B]

Yeah, I was going to say north being dun, dun, dun, dun.

[C]

Yeah, Dan. And so, but you may also be recognizing some things like Judah being one of those of being associated with the lion. Reuben, we're going to find out, is associated with a bull or an ox. And then there are two tribes on either side of each of those cardinal tribes. That's the way numbers describes it and lays it out. So it's laid out in numbers, the way a zodiac was typically laid out in the ancient world. And so again, at least by the time of the Second Temple period, we.

[B]

Have.

[C]

Readers of the text, those who are studying the Torah have noticed this. Right. And have made these assignments. And I'm going to run through which tribe is which symbol which relatively quickly you'll have a recording, you could pause, you could roll back and stuff. Now let me say the ones I'm going to give are sort of the majority version.

[B]

Yeah, there's variation in this point.

[C]

Yeah. Like what you may remember when we talked about the seven archangels on this show, when you find lists of the seven archangels in both church fathers and Jewish writings before that, you always find Saint Michael, you always find Saint Gabriel, you always find Saint Raphael, you always find Saint Uriel. Then the other three things happen, right?

[B]

I mean, even Uriel, though, sometimes you get.

[C]

Yeah, yeah. So then you get a lot more variation, right, beyond those. And the same is really true here with the twelve tribes. Like Judah is always a lion, right. There's certain of these that are just always right. But the, there are some of them where you'll, you'll find them. If you find a particular list in a particular text, a couple of them will be switched, will be swapped. Right. And those are like the lesser, some of the lesser known tribes, like Gad and Asher. Right. Like those, those are the ones that you'll find flipped. But the major tribes like Judah, Ephraim, Reuben, Dan. Right. Those are pretty much constant. Right. But so the ones I'm about to list are the most common ones. So Judah is associated with the lion, as we've mentioned now several times. Issachar with a maiden, Zebulun with a fish, Reuben with a bull or an ox, Simeon with a goat, Gad with a ram, Ephraim with water or some kind of water feature like a waterfall or water jar, Manasseh with scales, Benjamin with a well, it's the constellation that later the Greeks are going to call a crab. But before that, in the ancient near east, it was a dragon, which is way cooler than a crab, much Dan with a serpent, Asher with an archer, and Naphtali with twins. So those are the general. Like I said, some of those are constants in the major tribes. Some of those you'll find flipped.

[B]

And some of those, I mean, if you know the traditional names of the constellations from the Greco Latin tradition, some of those obviously going to be familiar.

[C]

To you, match up pretty well. Right?

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

And some of them, like the dragon crab thing, is that right? You've gotta fiddle with them a little bit.

[B]

Nice. Nice.

[C]

Yes. So the reason I keep saying at least by the second Temple period is just we don't have any texts before that. So if someone wants to say we're going to talk about this more in a little bit. But if someone wants to say, oh well, that's something that comes in after the exile in Babylon. They start doing astrology stuff. They didn't do it before that. We don't have a lot of evidence to prove that one way or the other. Right. But we know at least by then. Okay. By the time we get to Josephus for sure. And we have other sources that talk about this too, but Josephus records. And the reason Josephus is important in this regard is that Josephus was alive when there was a high priest actually doing high priestly things at the temple in Jerusalem. He says that the stones on the high priest Ephod that represented the 12 tribes had the constellations related to that tribe etched into them.

[B]

Yeah. Which, you know, that's not mentioned in the Bible, but he might well have seen it himself or, you know, he would certainly have been around. It would have been weird for him to say that if that's not how it was, at least in his time.

[C]

In his time. Right.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Again, hypothetically, those could have been the original stones, but probably not. Right. They were probably. They probably had to reconstruct that during the. When they were reconstructing the temple.

[B]

Yeah. Coming back from exile.

[C]

But I mean, it's possible, but I mean it'd be hard to argue that those were the original stones and therefore this goes all the way back to Moses. Right. But when, how long exactly that was true, we can't prove. But at least then that was the case. Obviously. The calendar issue of the calendar. Calendar texts. One of the callers brought up the Book of Enoch, a big chunk of which is right. Laying out the Anakic calendar, all of the Calendar debates that were going on in the second Temple period about whether to follow the Pharisaic calendar, the pagan Julian calendar that the Sadducees started using once it came into being in the first century B.C. the Enoch at calendar and probably others that we don't know about anymore. Other variations were all, all those arguments were related to the motions of heavenly bodies, directly related to astrological observations. And assuming that those astrological observations, the reason why we're still calling this astrology, is assuming that those were purposeful, that God had arranged things in the heaven to work heavens to work the way that they did, and that that should be reflected in human life because that was represented God's divine order. Right. So there is this level of meaning being ascribed, which makes it still a kind of astrology. And then one of the most telling things is that we have now archaeologically found a number, kind of a surprising number of 1st century AD synagogues in Galilee. Now, part of the reason for that is that the Romans came through at the end of the first century and demolished them and buried them. Right.

[B]

That's why they're still there. And archaeologists can dig them up now.

[C]

Right, right. Deliberately demolished them and buried them. But so now these include synagogues in cities where the Gospels tell us, cities in Galilee where the Gospels tell us Christ went to those cities and preached in the synagogue.

[B]

So it's possible that when he would have. Probably even that when he would have walked into the synagogue, he would have seen what we're talking about here.

[C]

Yeah, and what we're talking about here are mosaics in the entryway laying out the zodiac with Hebrew inscriptions. And we, we have no commentary from Christ on this fact recorded anywhere, positive or negative. Right. Yeah. But this seems to have just been the case at synagogues in Galilee where Christ was and where the apostles were living as Jewish people. So we know that astrology was going on in Jewish circles throughout the Second Temple period and in particular in the first century A.D. that certain kinds of astrology and elements of astrology were at that point part and parcel of Jewish religious discussions and debates. Now you will get all kinds of arguments, especially in the scholarly literature, because journal articles must be published, dissertations must be written.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

About which came first.

[B]

Yeah, this.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Did Israelites derive these things from a pagan zodiac or are they. Or is the zodiac stuff being kind of attached in later to all this existing, you know, is the whole twelve.

[C]

Tribes of Israel thing? Nonsense. This is just an astrological thing. And they're writing essentially astrological myths. Right. On Sort of the more liberal side or on the more conservative Protestant scholarship side, is astrology just totally evil, and this can't possibly have been acceptable, and therefore this is all just a few sort of paganized Jews here and there making this stuff up or, or ascribing pagan symbolism to things that had nothing to do with astrology whatsoever originally.

[B]

Right.

[C]

And, you know, people like to argue, but the, the problem with, with trying to make either of those cases is that they're both examples of motivated reasoning. Meaning in both cases, you start with your conclusion and argue backwards from it. So if you've already decided that astrology is evil and pagan, then definitionally the faithful Jews at least cannot have been involved with it in any way. Therefore all of this stuff must be weird accretions of the Second Temple period by faithless Jewish people. Or if you start with the conclusion that Judaism was just another form, the real Judaism that actually existed was just another form of ancient Near Eastern paganism that's been whitewashed by later generations and rewritten, then this astrology stuff you're going to argue is, oh, this is the real pagan Judaism, like, creeping out around the edges. Right. This is the rare truth. But in both of those cases, you've just asserted your conclusion.

[B]

Yeah. And I mean, it's. And they're both based on this, this bifurcation of the world into these two radically different worldviews. You know, that, that either that must have existed or that. That do exist. You know, that. That Christianity and Judaism are this one view of, of the spiritual world. And then paganism is this completely different view of the spiritual world. And so, you know, it's either one or the other. And, and that's just the way that it is. But the problem is, when you start actually looking really closely, as we're doing, at the Scriptures, what you get is actually they all kind of have a very similar world view in terms of their understanding of how the world works. The question is really, what do you do about that? What is the.

[C]

Looking at the. They're looking at the same landscape from different perspectives.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

They don't disagree about the landscape.

[B]

Right, right.

[C]

They don't disagree that the spirits exist. They disagree about whether they have your best intentions in mind.

[B]

Yeah, right. That's right.

[C]

So that's the key difference. And so we don't need to do any of this motivated reasoning. We can just take what the Scriptures say at face value. Right. And astrological stuff, fairly detailed astrological stuff is in the Bible. Okay. Exhibit A of this is probably Psalm 19 in the Hebrew numbering 18. In the Greek numbering, verses 1 through 6.

[B]

Yeah. Which says this. The heavens declare the glory of God, and the firmament proclaims his handiwork. Day to day pours out speech, and night to night reveals knowledge. There is no speech, nor are there words whose voice is not heard. Their line goes out through all the earth and their words to the end of the world. In them, he has set a tent for the sun, which comes out like a bridegroom leaving his chamber, and like a strong man, runs its course with joy. Its rising is from the end of the heavens and its circuit to the end of them. And there is nothing hidden from its heat.

[C]

Yeah. So that line that it talks about going out through all the earth is what's called the ecliptic in astrology, which is sort of the median line in the heavens against which you judge the relationship of various heavenly bodies. And then it describes the sun sort of circumnavigating the ecliptic. Right. So that's astrology. Right. Now it's attributing the creation of all of these things in the heavens to God. Right. But it's also saying they pour forth speech declaring God's glory, meaning they're communicating. Right?

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

And that communication element is the key element. This is what separates Jewish astrology from pagan astrology.

[B]

Right.

[C]

Again, not the fact that there's a zodiac, not the fact that there's an ecliptic, not the fact even that they associate spirits with these different heavenly bodies. Right. But this element of speech. And so we're going to read. It's fairly lengthy, and you've heard it before on this show, if you've listened to every episode. But it's been a minute, and it's important. So once again, Philo of Alexandria, the first century BC is going to tell us the difference between Jewish astrology and pagan astrology. And it's not. Jews reject it. Yeah, Pagans like it.

[B]

And Philo is a Jew living in Alexandria. Okay, so this is what he says. It is a little bit lengthy. So just listen closely. Some persons have conceived that the sun and the moon and the other stars are independent gods to whom they have attributed the causes of all things that exist. But Moses was well aware that the world was created and was like a very large city having rulers and subjects in it. The rulers being all the bodies which are in heaven, such as planets and fixed stars, and the subjects being all the natures beneath the moon, hovering in the air and adjacent to the earth. But that the rulers aforesaid are not independent and absolute, but are the viceroys of the one supreme Being, the Father of all, in imitation of whom they administer with propriety and success the charge committed to their care, as he also presides over all created things in strict accordance with justice and with law. Others, on the contrary, who have not discovered the supreme governor, who thus rules everything, have attributed the causes of the different things which exist in the world to the subordinate powers, as if they had brought them to pass by their own independent act. But the most sacred lawgiver changes their ignorance into knowledge, speaking in the following manner. Thou shalt not, when thou seest the sun and the moon and the stars and all the host of heaven be led astray, and fall down and worship them. By the way, that is a reference to Deuteronomy, he goes on. With great felicity and propriety has he here called the reception of these bodies as gods an error. For they who see that the different seasons of the year owe their existence to the advances and retreats of the sun, in which periods also the generation of animals and plants and fruits are perfected according to well defined times, and who see also that the moon is the servant and successor of the sun, taking that care and superintendence of the world by night which the sun takes by day, and also that the other stars, in accordance with their sympathy with things on earth, labor continually and do. 10,000 things which contribute to the duration of the existing state of things, have been led into an inextricable error, imagining that these bodies are the only gods. We're skipping ahead a little bit here. We must therefore look on all those bodies in the heaven which the outward sense regards as gods, not as independent rulers, since they are assigned the work of lieutenants, being by their intrinsic nature responsible to a higher power, but by reason of their virtue not actually called to render in an account of their doings. So that, transcending all visible essence by means of our reason, let us press forward to the honor of that everlasting and invisible being, who can be comprehended and appreciated by the mind alone, who's not only the God of all gods, whether appreciable only by the intellect or visible to the outward senses, but is also the Creator of them all. And if anyone gives up the service due to the everlasting and uncreated God, transferring it to any more modern and created being, let him be set down as mad and as liable to the charge of the greatest impiety. So he goes on a bit. But the key takeaways Here you should get is, look, these heavenly beings are indeed in charge of the world, but under God. And they are created. They didn't create. They don't make things. They didn't make things come into being. God does that. They serve God. Like that's what he's. Notice how many times he uses the word independent. They're not independent is his biggest point. They're, they're lesser beings that God is in charge of God, of gods.

[C]

Right. And they communicate like good angels. Right? Messengers, they, they bring messengers from God. God can use them to communicate things like, say, the birth of the Messiah to tease our third half.

[B]

How about that? Right?

[C]

Like God can use them to communicate certain things, but they themselves, as Father Andrew said, are not sort of independent actors who should be independently worshiped and appeased and lobbied.

[B]

Right.

[C]

To do particular things with gifts of, you know, animal blood, etc.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, don't do that. Don't worship them. So, yeah, the gods exist. Don't worship them. Worship God only is is this is the action to take here. So. All right. Well, with that said, we're going to go ahead and take our second and final break. And we'll be right back.

[A]

Father Andrew, Stephen Damick and father Stephen DeYoung will be back in a moment to take your calls on the next part of the Lord of Spirits. Give them a call at 855-237-2346. That's 855-AF-RADIO.

[E]

Ancient Near Eastern texts such as the BAAL cycle portray the pagan God BAAL as a rebel, the hero of a revolution, worshiped and glorified for his long string of victories. In the Baal book, A Biography of the Devil, Fr. Stephen DeYoung shows that the Hebrew Scriptures consciously turn the Baal story on its head, depicting him as a failed and defeated rebel who nonetheless tries to steal the glory that belongs to Almighty God. From these scriptures, the figure of the Devil emerged within Jewish and Christian tradition. Father De Jong works through the Old and New Testament passages that refer to various BAAL stories, and he surveys BAAL worship through followers, beliefs, religious practices and liturgical life. In these pages, we will see that the figures of BAAL and the Devil, the Prince of demons, are one and the same. To find this book and others like it, you can go to store.ancientfaith.com again, that is store.ancient faith.com.

[A]

We'Re back now with the Lord of Spirits with Father Andrew, Stephen Damick and Father Stephen DeYoung. If you have a question, call now at 855-2372. 3, 4, 6. That's 855-AF-RADIO.

[B]

You gotta love the ominous music in that. That ad, Father.

[C]

It's not as cool as the, the actual animated commercial though.

[B]

That was pretty metal.

[C]

You guys need to put that up as like a YouTube short or something.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, people.

[C]

But before we go on. So I of course have my phone muted while we're broadcasting this show live and everything, but there are ways to contact me should an emergency arise. And does that happen. I received important breaking news that I have to inform our listeners of. It was just announced at the game Awards that they're releasing a decades awaited sequel to Knights of the Old Republic.

[B]

Yes. My son texted this to me called.

[C]

Fate of the Old Republic.

[B]

That's right. He texted this to me about 25 minutes ago.

[C]

He said same game director as the originals and the bioware, Matthew.

[B]

Well, I mean the sequel.

[C]

See this is the important news that they come to us to hear when they listen to this show.

[B]

The original was magnificent. The sequel was less than that.

[C]

The sequel is somewhat underrated.

[B]

The, the sort of restored edition that you could get as a mod which you know, digs all the stuff out of the, the data and kind of fixes the story. Whatever makes it much better. Makes it much better.

[C]

Yeah. And Ed Asner's voice acting is amazing. Yeah. In the second one.

[B]

Yeah. I thought that the original should have been made into a film. I don't know why.

[C]

The original was like an all time classic like the other things still holds up today.

[B]

Absolutely.

[C]

Story wise.

[B]

Absolutely, absolutely.

[C]

So you're welcome audience that we passed this along to you.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. So, okay, so I mean if, if.

[C]

Do we have any more callers?

[B]

We don't, not, not at the moment. So, you know, I guess people are just so stunned by that news, they don't know what to do with themselves. They're.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Going out there and seeing. They can pre order.

[C]

They're all going to watch the trailer on YouTube right now.

[B]

Yeah, actually I got, I got someone to go away and pause us and go watch the McRib song by Zanty. I can't, I can't remember her last name now. Which is now 10 years old. Did you know that the McRib song is now 10 years old?

[C]

Why would you do that to yourself during a fast? Why would you tantalize yourself in such a way?

[B]

Someone in the, someone in the chat was asking about this and I was like, they said something like that. I didn't get to have a McRib before the fest started and I was like. But I did watch the McRib song a couple of times, so that. That's not bad. It's not bad.

[C]

So I guess you could get one of those, like, vegan rib patty things. Let's not, like, harvest burger bakes and a roll and, like, can you do.

[B]

Haru spicy with a vegan McRib patty? I don't.

[C]

You can't do. You can't be. You can't do existing. No.

[B]

You're not supposed to either way.

[C]

Because whatever that was made out of had no organs.

[B]

That's right.

[C]

I mean, I guess a stamen is technically an organ.

[B]

Okay. So, you know, we laid out kind of the ancient Near Eastern and general framework of the world in terms of astrology in the first half. In the second half, we showed how that really actually is represented, particularly in the Old Testament. So why.

[C]

Yeah, Jewish folks seem like they were kind of cool with it, as long as, you know, it was done from a certain perspective.

[B]

There does not seem to be a Christian astrology.

[C]

Yes.

[B]

Is there, like, what's going on?

[C]

No, there's not. And in fact, there's this very important figure in this regard. He's actually an important figure in a couple of regards. But this is one of them named Aquila of Sinope.

[B]

Okay.

[C]

Not to be. There were a lot of people named Aquila.

[B]

Yeah. As I say, not to be confused.

[C]

There's even a couple in the Bible.

[B]

As in Aquila and Priscilla. That's not the same. It's just. It's a Roman name.

[C]

Yeah. So Aquila of Sinope, who we're talking about the early part of the second century A.D. he was a Roman. He worked for Hadrian, the Roman emperor. Hadrian, who you may remember from our last episode.

[B]

Yeah, the wall guy.

[C]

Yes. Well, that's not what we talked about in the last episode.

[B]

No, no, it's not. But I've been trying to block that out of my mind. So.

[C]

Okay. But he worked for eight years. So the thing he's probably more famous for than what we're about to talk about, than his biographical details, is that he is one of three people, along with Symmachus and Theodotian, who, after.

[F]

The.

[C]

Rise of the early rise of Christianity, attempted to retranslate the Greek translation of the Hebrew Bible to make it less prone to Christian readings to go back to the Hebrew, do a new Greek translation, because the old Greek translation Christians had latched onto. And we're using some of the particulars of that translation to argue for particular points of Christianity. Of Christian doctrine over against those Jewish folks who did not accept Jesus as the Messiah.

[B]

And this gets mentioned by Saint Justin Martyr in his dialogue with Trefo.

[C]

Please listen closely.

[B]

Yes.

[C]

So all of you hearing this.

[B]

Yes. Right. And so some people having come across this passage from St. Justin Martyr where he says you have altered the scriptures so that they don't, basically, so they'll give Christian readings.

[C]

He gives examples at one point.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[C]

Of old readings and new readings.

[B]

There are people who read that and say, ahaha. This is Saint Justin Martyr telling everybody that the Masoretic text. The Hebrew Masoretic text.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Of the Old Testament has what would.

[C]

Become the Masoretic text.

[B]

Yeah, yes, yes. Has been altered. But that's not what he's referring to. He's referring to somebody monkeying with a Greek translation, making a new Greek translation.

[C]

Redoing the Greek translation. That is what he is talking about. Yeah. Talking about them getting rid of the old Greek translations from the synagogues and either going back to the Hebrew original or using one of these new Greek translations.

[B]

Yeah. Because I don't think could just. Could St. Justin read Hebrew? Like, would he.

[C]

Probably at least knew Aramaic.

[B]

Okay.

[C]

Because he was from Nablus.

[B]

Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[C]

So he's probably at least fluent in Aramaic.

[B]

So that's pretty close.

[C]

Yeah, yeah. So but that's what he's talking about. Okay. He is not talking about the Masoretic text being fabricated. We know for certain from the Dead Sea Scrolls that the text that became the Masoretic text existed at least in the 3rd century BC in Hebrew virtually identically to what it looks like today. Okay. So leave off with that nonsense. Right. When you make that argument, it just makes you look weird because it's not historically true.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

And people who have studied this know it's not historically true.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Just non Christian Jewish groups did try to change the Greek translation and ultimately abandoned the Greek translations of. Of the Hebrew Bible of the Old Testament because of Christianity. That is true. Right? That is absolutely true. But St. Justin is talking about them altering the Greek translations. And Aquila of Sinope is one of the people who did that. Yeah. Okay. Now Aquila is not a Jewish name.

[B]

No. It's a Roman name again.

[C]

Right. And in fact, when you see it referred to in Jewish sources, he's referred to as Aquila the proselyte. Right. Which is essentially Aquila the convert.

[B]

Hmm. Yeah. Yeah.

[C]

So how did this happen? Well, not only did he work for Hadrian, but he's One of the top guys who Hadrian sent. Not his favorites, that's something else, as we found out last episode, but one of the top guys who he sent to reconstruct Jerusalem. So Hadrian turned Jerusalem into Alia Capitolina, rebuilt the city following the roman destruction of 70. Right. And just his own urban renewal efforts. And that's part of what triggered the Barcoque for revolt. So Aquila is one of the people who was sent there to supervise reconstruction projects. The reconstructed Jerusalem, by the way, had a big pillar with a giant statue of Hadrian on top of it, overlooking the city. But so Aquila was sent there, and Aquila ended up becoming a Christian. He became a Christian, he went back to Rome as a Christian, and then the Bishop of Rome at the time excommunicated him for practicing astrology. And so when he was excommunicated from the Christian community in Rome for practicing astrology, he converted to Judaism and became a quill, the proselyte, went back to Palestine and became a disciple of Rabbi Akiva. So, yes, so we're talking about around 130 AD AD. 130, yeah.

[B]

So why. Why was he excommunicated?

[C]

There's whiplash here, right? Because we were just talking about Josephus in the first century and, like, totally cool with this astrology stuff in Judaism. And now within like one or two generations, Christianity is like, no, you cannot practice astrology at all, Period.

[B]

Right.

[C]

Quick turnaround. Right.

[D]

And.

[C]

The reasons for it are not just sort of at first obvious, because, for example, in the New Testament, in Romans 10, St. Paul quotes Psalm 19:18 in the Greek.

[B]

Right.

[C]

That we talked about in the last half and talks about the Gospel being proclaimed to the Gentiles by the stars of the heavenly bodies.

[B]

That's astrology stuff.

[C]

So, yeah, it's astrology stuff. It's Jewish astrology stuff. Right. That God communicates through these. These lesser spiritual beings. Right. These angels. He uses them to. As messengers to communicate things about himself. Right. To people on Earth. Right. So that's typical Jewish stuff of the first century A.D. and there's still, in the earliest examples we have, and even in some cases to this very day, there are astrological symbols used in Christian iconography.

[B]

Oh, yeah, totally. I mean, the promotional image for this episode, if you're looking at it on YouTube right now, and a bunch of you are, is an icon of Christ that's in the dome of a monastery in Greece. And there he is enthroned. And of course, right next to him, you see the four living Creatures which, as we know, are four different constellation images. But then the outer ring of that dome, if you look in the outer ring of that, you see astrological images there. You know, those are the various constellations of the zodiac in that outer ring. And I mean, this is not the only place in the orthodox world where you see the zodiac connected with Christ in this particular way. This is just one place. This is a monastery in Greece. I mean, this isn't some, you know, weird piece of iconography from, you know, Montana or whatever. This is. This. This is in Greece.

[C]

Right. And unlike non Christian Judaism, Christianity continues for centuries, as we've talked about before on the show, to use texts like First Enoch and other Second Temple Jewish texts that contain all this astrological stuff. Right. So again, at that level. So, you know, was it just this one Bishop of Rome just really hated astrology. Like, what. What's going on? Right.

[B]

Why would this.

[C]

Why would this flip. And I think the key element here, and we're going to go into this more, but the key element here is that Aquila of Sinope was condemned not for knowing about astrology or using astrological symbolism or terminology or teaching that God communicates things to people through the mukho movement of heavenly bodies. He was condemned for practicing astrology. Right. And so the key here seems to be, and we'll develop this out, but the key thing here seems to be the idea that he was practicing astrology in the sense of using astrology as a mode of divination to tell the future, to predict the future, not merely using symbolism or talking about the fact that stars led the magi to Christ's birth. This is a different thing. And so we have relatively early, I mean, besides just this one case of Aquila of Sinope, relatively early in the books against heresies and works against the pagans, against the Greeks, as they were called by most early Christians. Most early Christians just called pagans Greeks. Yeah, sorry. Greek Orthodox listeners. We find in there sort of general condemnations of practicing astrology, but nothing in detail, nothing that sort of explains, here's why we as Christians have rejected this right? Over against what apparently was still at least being tolerated within Judaism.

[B]

Right.

[C]

And so the first place where first two fathers who give us a little detail this are St. Augustine and St. John Chrysostom.

[B]

Okay.

[C]

So St. Augustine on astrology, this is going to trouble some of you folks because it's going to kind of demonstrate that you've been reading St. Augustine completely incorrectly, but we'll get there. So St. Augustine talks about astrology in two different places and in two different contexts in those two different places. So one of those is in Confessions 8. And in Confessions 8, his confessions are basically his autobiography. And so there he's talking about the fact that before he was a Christian, when he was in the pagan world, he had an interest in astrology and got dabbled around with it a little bit and was interested in it as a pagan and then ultimately rejected it. The other place he talks about it is in City of God 5 and in City of God. City of God is more of a theological treatise. And so we get sort of most of his arguments. There's a few arguments in the Confessions, but City of God gives us most of his sort of overall, you could call it refutation. Right. Astrology debunked. Right. If it was a YouTube video. So, and the core. Here's a spoiler. The core of St. Augustine's critique.

[B]

Of.

[C]

Astrology is going to be that astrology requires fatalism.

[B]

Wait, I thought St. Augustine was into fatalism.

[C]

Turns out no. Right.

[B]

Sorry, Calvinists for the night.

[C]

And to be more specific, because our Calvinist friends will say they're not fatalists. Okay. St. Augustine says that astrology doesn't work here explicitly because God does not determine the will of human beings. We'll get there. There's no way around this. Right. His. His argument against astrology in City of God makes it clear he did not. He was not a predestinarian in the Calvinist sense. Yeah, remotely. So he talks about. So part of what he's talking about is, in this context is what we would today call birth horoscopes.

[B]

Yeah, The.

[C]

You know, which one of our callers brought up.

[B]

Yeah. The idea that if you're born under a particular sign, then that kind of determines.

[C]

I mean, now we talk about it as happening, etc.

[B]

Yeah, now we tend to talk about it in terms of determining your personality, but also, you know, like the newspaper, horoscopes, on some level, it's your fate. Right. But ancient people, it's much more about fate. You know, it determines your fate.

[C]

And so.

[B]

Yeah, but Mike is not the same as Rebecca De Morney or Elliot Gould. Clearly.

[C]

Clearly. Or Michael Jackson.

[B]

Definitely not Michael Jackson.

[C]

You are not, in fact, a dead billionaire. And you have had no plastic surgery. To my knowledge, currently. None.

[B]

None whatsoever. Never broken any of my own bones.

[C]

So St. Augustine points out some very practical things, like. How about twins?

[B]

Yeah. Why are they not. Why do they not have the same fate?

[C]

Twins. Yeah. Who as St. Augustine says are conceived at the same time and born near to one another. And yet have different fates, different things happen with them and even sometimes have different personalities. Right. And then he talks about. He talks about, you know, there are children born to very wealthy families and very poor families on the same day at the same time and relatively near each other. And them being from a rich or poor family seems to be a lot more determinative of the course of the rest of their life than their time and date of birth. Yep. So St. Augustine was a Marxist. QED. We gotta blame everything bad in the west on St. Augustine, don't we?

[B]

Like, that's what I've heard.

[C]

That's the whole shtick. Okay, so Marxism, St. Augustine's fault somehow?

[B]

Well, it's all about spinal cord fluid. Only a few people out there.

[C]

Okay, Okay. I haven't. I haven't achieved that level of initiation in the cult yet. So I. I don't know about the spinal fluid.

[B]

Oh, you don't know about the spinal.

[C]

No, I do know about the spinal.

[B]

I was gonna say.

[C]

I was gonna say I have to.

[B]

Wait until we're done. We'll talk off the air about that one.

[C]

I know exactly what you're talking about.

[B]

Okay. Okay.

[C]

Just check. It was kayfabe. Come on. And so Zane Augustine then answers the objection. Well, what about when they get things right?

[B]

Yeah. Doesn't it work? Sometimes.

[C]

Right. Doesn't work Sometime. You're such a. This is another. I've got some more rough news for you Calvinist friends. St. Augustine says that's due to luck and chance.

[B]

What? There's luck?

[C]

Both of which St. Augustine believes exist.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Yep. So now within this, St. Augustine still has the idea. He refers to the stars as powers. He still has the idea that they're connected to angelic beings. Right? But he has this core problem with fatalism and with the idea that that astrology, for it to work, would have to deny the freedom of the human will. He explicitly says. St. Augustine explicitly says in City of God 5 that God, the omnipotent God. Right? The omnipotent God works in the world and is in control, sovereign control of all of the powers. Right? Meaning the heavenly bodies, the angels associated with him, he is in control of, but not all wills. So St. Augustine explicitly says here that God does not control human wills, or at least not all of them. We'll come back to that in a minute. And so the picture that St. Augustine paints here is, yes, God's energies, his activities in the world. He is omnipotent Right. He is omnipotent and he acts within creation. Right. But. But he does not override the human will. Therefore, there is contingency in the world based on the human will, and therefore astrology can't work.

[B]

So his whole argument against astrology basically denies the foundations of Calvinism.

[C]

Yes. Is based on the freedom of the human will. Yeah. So he says, yes, God's will does govern the movements in the heavens, but you cannot use that to predict the future. Because of human will, humans cannot use that to predict the future. He doesn't say anything about God and the future. But let me clue you in on this. St. Augustine was a Platonist. So he believes that God is outside of time. Okay, so there is no future for God. But. So he's not talking about God's knowledge, but he's saying humans cannot foretell the future. Humans cannot know the future because of the contingency in the future produced by the freedom of the human will. That's your St. Augustine man. Yep, St. Augustine. What can I say to you? And if you don't believe me, you can go look it up, read City of God. So we also mentioned St John Chrysostom, the main critique we have from him of astrology. It's a little different because it's in a homily. Right. So like St. Augustine in the Confessions talks about in his own life, this interest he had for a while in astrology, and then why he set it aside, City of God. He talks theologically about why astrology doesn't work. Work. St. John Chrysostom is in a homily trying to urge his hearers, his congregation, not to get involved in practicing astrology. So he's coming at it from a little different angle. Right. And the key thing, again, that St. John Chrysostom wants to hammer on is the stars being angels, the stars being powers.

[B]

Right.

[C]

Angels being associated with them. Right. And that any independent power, any independent judgment, any independent control of events in the world that you try to give to these angelic beings, for St. John Chrysostom, you are de facto taking that control away from God himself. You're saying this is not God doing this. This is this other being.

[B]

It's basically like what Philo said, just, you know, 400 years before Chrysostom.

[C]

Yes, Very similar. Right. And so he wants to hammer on. And in context. So he's talking about this in the context of preaching about the magi and the star. Right. And he doesn't want. In St. Matthew's gospel, he doesn't want his congregation to say, oh, okay, astrology is cool, because the magi did astrology and found Christ. Right. And so again, he's hammering on the star of Bethlehem is an angel. Right. It's a messenger of God that God used in that instance. Right. To send this message to those people. This is not about astrology the way the pagans practice it. Right. That's sort of his key argument.

[B]

So.

[C]

Going back to the question we had at the beginning of this third.

[D]

Half.

[C]

Why is there then this sudden shift with Christianity? Right. Why is why we. We've now argued that the core element of Christian theology that makes astrology not work, that makes it a problem, is this idea of the freedom of the will. But why is that a thing that. That particularly enters into theology with Christianity per se, as opposed to preceding forms of Second Temple Judaism, for example?

[B]

Yeah. I mean, something shifts.

[C]

Yeah, yeah. And so there is, within the Second Temple Jewish view, like as Philo outlined it, even within that, there's a kind of subtle determinism in there, in that even if you understand it the way Philo does, that whatever the stars may say about the future, it's God saying it about the future. That's still a human being able to derive certain knowledge of particular future events. Right. Which is essentially divination, but also. Right. Requires a certain amount of determinism. Right. And so the key here is the understanding of the human will that enters into Christian thought and understanding through the concept of nature, which enters Christian understanding through essentially St. Paul. So we've talked about this, I know, a couple times before on the show, but the Greek word feces that we translate nature does not occur in the Old Testament in Greek. It's just. It's not used. It's maybe used once in an odd way in an appendix to the Old Testament, depending on what kind of orthodox Christian you are, but otherwise it is not used in the old testament. But St. Paul uses it a lot, and it gets used a couple of other times in the New Testament as well. And we've talked about how, for St. Paul, nature, human nature in particular, is one. All humans share one human nature, which is the big innovation in how he uses it, as opposed to how Greek philosophy had used it. Greek philosophy had used nature largely to talk about the concept of what we would call heredity. Right. So different humans had different natures. For Aristotle, there are people who are by nature slaves and people who are by nature rulers and people who are by nature warriors and et cetera. There were better and worse classes of people. And nature was an individual thing. It was your individual set of inherited traits, was your individual nature. Whereas for St. Paul, as he says at the areopagus, from one man, God created all the men on the face of the earth, right? So all humans share one nature. And that nature represents an orientation of humanity for him. That one human nature for St. Paul is in certain ways synonymous with the image of God. Meaning that that nature is not just a static thing, right? It's not just some quality or set of qualities that all humans possess that makes them human, but it is an orientation in a particular direction, right, Of a human. So to use an example within the Greek philosophical use, right, an acorn has the nature of an oak tree. And so sort of the purpose, the telos, the end, the purpose, the fulfillment of what it is. To be an acorn is to grow into a full grown oak tree, okay? That's, that's what it's aimed at. So for humans, right, who are made in the image of God, human nature is that we are all aimed at becoming God. We are all aimed at becoming like God.

[B]

Yeah. This is theosis, or being conformed to.

[C]

The image of Christ. This language is all over St. Paul, right? This is theosis, right? The full measure, right? To be perfect, to be complete, the likeness of Christ, right? All of this language in St. Paul, right? That is what every human being is aimed at. That is the potential of every human being. That is what every human being was created to do. Will, then, as understood within Christian theology, for all of its history in the east and still by St. Augustine in the west, the will is directly connected to your nature, right? So you have to understand philosophically the idea of motion and change. So we have this acorn, its nature, part of its nature is that it's telos is to become an oak tree. For it to become a full grown oak tree, it's going to have to grow and change a lot. It's going to have to increase exponentially in size, right? It is going to have to undergo all kinds of processes and transformations, right, over the course of its lifespan, right? In order to reach, to reach that telos if it, if it does, right? And yet acorns do this all the time without some human doing something to them, right? There's not some outside being, some other being who comes and does something to the acorn to turn it into an oak tree. Rather, there is this internal life, right? This internal drive that causes it to seek and absorb nourishment, right? To grow, to live, to be Transformed that internal drive, that internal movement. Saint Maximus talks about the will in terms of move. Internal movement. Movement, right? That is what we call the will. So the human will is the internal drive, the internal push to. To grow, to be transformed. Right? To be spiritually nourished, to be transformed into the likeness of Christ. Right? That's what. And every human possesses that will. That is the will that is connected to every human nature. Okay? But that will, just like with the acorn, not every acorn grows into an oak tree. Yeah, right. There are things that can come in and stunt that development, that can stop it at some point along the chain, that can kill it right before it achieves that, okay? And so again, the traditional Christian understanding, including the understanding of St. Augustine, is that sin, corruption, death, these things are obstacles that obstruct the will, that stop the human will from developing in the direction of the fullness of the likeness of Christ. Therefore, in salvation, the human will is freed, right? Freed not to make choices. That's a whole other thing. It's a whole other thing that we won't talk about right now. Freed to push forward toward what it was created to be, to push toward perfection, to push toward maturity, right? Is freed from that, to go in that one direction. So when St. Augustine talks about our human will being bound by sin, he doesn't mean that somehow we've lost the ability to choose to do a good thing. Yeah, right. We know that's not true. Atheists and heathens do good things all the time. They help someone in need, they show love to someone. Happens every day, okay? They were able to do that, okay? But what they're not able to do, right, without the transforming grace of God is become like Christ is experience. Salvationist theosis. That's what they're not able to do. Without that, you could do plenty of nice things. You could do plenty of good things. Okay?

[B]

So.

[C]

For St. Augustine and for all the church fathers, right? When the will is freed from those obstacles, right? From those obstructions, right, from those things that. That those that are might force it to go in the wrong direction, right? Or lead it to go the wrong direction, when it's freed from that, then naturally our human will follows and participates in and is guided by God's will. This is what St. Augustine meant when he said God does not command all wills, right? Only those which have been freed. Right? Only those which have been freed from sin. That's what's meant by a free will. And so Christianity, right? The key problem with practicing astrology as a mode of divination is that Christianity is an ethos of freedom. And the practice of astrology is. Divination is an ethos of determinism, fatalism, of enslavement to the elemental powers that govern this present evil age. Right. It is an ethos that brings one under the control of. Of those powers, which is bondage and slavery and not actual freedom. And so, in closing, St. Paul says something about this in Hebrews chapter 12.

[B]

Verse one, which I'm pulling up on my screen right now.

[C]

You're the one who's supposed to prepare for these things, Father.

[B]

I know, I know. You just walk on long ago, at many times. Oh, this. That's Hebrews one. Here we go. I need Hebrews 12:12, verse one. Yes.

[C]

Therefore, brethren, since we are, I'm going.

[B]

To just go ahead and read through the whole book. Therefore, since we are. I mean. Yeah, yeah, I mean, I know what the verse is. Since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us. You know, one of the thoughts that occurred to me, especially here at the end and talking about freedom is, I think. I mean, most people, at least most Christians, are not engaging in divination by means of astrology. So it's probably not that that particular sin is not something that most people are tempted towards or find themselves engaged in. I mean, although, I mean, you know, this is going on, this is not just all in the past, but one of the big struggles, I think, that a lot of people have is probably all of us have on some level, is our experience of what sin is, right? So St. Paul here in Hebrews 12:1, describes it as a weight sin which clings closely, he says. And I think a lot of times people experience this as inner flaws, right? Like, well, there's something wrong with me. It's just who I am, whatever. And you can see how that's kind of related to this astrological stuff, like, whoa, well, you know, I'm just. I'm just a. I'm just a Pisces. I'm just an Aquarius. I'm just a Virgo, you know, whatever. Which is just another way of saying, you know, who I am, what I do has been determined. There's nothing I can do about it. And this also gets. Is a problem when considering evil kind of in the world. Know, what's wrong with people? Why are people like this? But the. The element that's left out of A lot of this is an element that we have discussed, of course, many, many times over the last five plus years of this podcast, which is that there are other spiritual beings on the field in play, and that particularly the dark demonic powers, what they are doing when we listen to them, when we participate with them, what they are doing is putting us in bondage. They are putting weights on us. They're clinging to us, to use St. Paul's language here in Hebrews 12:1. And the. The object then of being a Christian is to become free of that, right? So that we don't have them dragging us down. We call what it is we're doing. We call what it is we're participating in salvation. And like this word, salvation has become such a sort of technical religious term that I think often its literal sense is lost. For a lot of people, salvation means to be rescued, to be saved from something, to be, you know, pulled away from something. And it's not only an eternal fate of the Lake of Fire that we are saved from. That's just kind of the final act, so to speak. We're being saved from the power of the evil one. We're being saved from the influence of the dark powers. And it's their working in us that is sin, and it's our cooperation with them that is when we be. We sin. And when you understand that this problem of evil in the world is a problem of evil beings, evil spiritual beings in the world, then I think that the project in a lot of ways becomes much clearer. You know, it is a project. The. The project of Christianity is. Is an exorcistic project.

[C]

It's.

[B]

It's casting out demonic forces. But it's also, of course, about synergizing with God. It's about cooperating with God, about working together with God, receiving through our faithfulness that which his grace accomplishes in us as a free gift. You know, it's exactly what you see at the beginning of an orthodox baptismal service where you're turning your back on the dark powers and you're turning towards the Lord Jesus Christ. You're disaligning yourself with Satan and all his. All his service, all his pride, all his pomp. You know, whatever translation you're listening to and aligning yourself with Christ, participating in Christ. A lot of the way that we see the world, at least here in the United States and in the 21st century. I know we have some people listening from other places too, but maybe. So maybe you're affected by this. I don't know. But a lot of the way that we see the world is we often have this sense of, like, well, that's just the way things are. That's just who I am. That's just the way it is. A fatalistic point of view. A fatalistic point of view. I can never be more than what I am. I can never be other than what I am. You know, And I mean, we see this on the popular, in popular culture now too, right? There is often this kind of, like, this is the nature of cancel culture, right? Cancel culture is all about destroying someone else. Because, of course, repentance is not a thing, but repentance is a thing. Change is possible, not just for me, but for, you know, those people, whoever those people are, the bad people doing bad things. But God is not willing that any should perish. Christ died for us while we were yet sinners, meaning that he believes in change. He makes change possible. And so what we learn from this examination of astrology is not just don't do divination, obviously don't do divination, but also we learn that, as Father Stephen just said, the goal is freedom. Christianity is based on human freedom, freedom to become what it is that God has made us to be, to lay aside all the weight so that we can grow, so we can become truly sons of God, equal to the angels, as the Lord Jesus himself said. And so, you know, far from being a kind of just weird esoteric subject, this exploration of astrology in the ancient world and holy scriptures, and of course, Christianity's response to it actually goes right to the heart of who we are, what it is we're trying to accomplish as Christians, and what it is that Jesus did for us. So that's. Those are some of my big takeaways from this.

[C]

So relatedly, let me first offer as proof of my love for you, the listener, that I am giving the last of my voice to this broadcast this evening, as you could probably hear by now, at least. So, yeah, related to what Father Andrew was saying, right. I think we underestimate the degree to which many, if not most of us have given other people control over our life. And, you know, for most of you, again, as Father Edner said, for most of you, that's probably not an astrologer, right? Pretty sure Nancy Reagan isn't listening from beyond the grave. So most of you are not making all of your life decisions based on what an astrologer tells you per se. But. But there are a lot of us who have heard voices, could be from one or both of our parents, siblings, co Workers, schoolmates, bosses, sort of the general run of society in which we found ourselves that have told us as surely as an astrologer would, what we're supposed to be like, who we're supposed to be, how we're supposed to act, what kind of career we should pursue and why, what it is that gives us value as a human being, what our purpose is or should be, down to sometimes, details of what we ought to do. And we've taken that and we've internalized it. And a lot of us have internalized it to the point that, you know, even if the parent who was saying it to us has been dead for years, or we haven't seen the teacher who said it to us in decades, or the schoolmates are scattered to the four winds, living in all parts of the country, we've never seen them since. Whoever it is, that voice is still now inside of us, reiterating the same things. And one of two things happens when we have this idea of what our destiny or fate should be, how our life should be, what things should be like. Either we achieve it, we actually do those things. We slave away for that voice, whoever's voice it is, to make happen whatever it's saying we're supposed to make happen, to make our life, how we're supposed to make it. And then when we've done that, we are profoundly unhappy. We are profoundly lonely and isolated. The things that God promises us, like love, joy, peace, kindness, good, are far from us. Even though we've done all the things we were supposed to do and become the kind of person we were supposed to be. Or as is probably more common.

[B]

We.

[C]

Worked and toiled and tried to do all those things that voice said we should do, to try and be what it said we should be. And we haven't achieved it. We haven't achieved that destiny. And that then means that we're worthless. That then means that we're garbage. That means that all those efforts, our whole life has been a waste because it didn't turn out the way it was supposed to turn out. We didn't achieve the things we were supposed to achieve. We didn't get the things we were supposed to have. And we either on one side get angry at the world for not being the way we thought it should be, and we become destructive, or we internalize it and we become self destructive. We may not directly harm ourselves, but we'll do it passive aggressively. We'll do things that we know will ruin our health. We'll do things that we know will ruin Our relationships and our life in general. And so for me, a big part of the message tonight is that Christ has come to set us free. Not only from astrology as but one example, but from all of those voices, all of those powers, all of those influences that we've allowed to enslave us for our entire lives. Because whatever destiny they were proposing to you, whatever career, however much wealth, whatever happiness in marriage and family, whatever those things they were claiming were your destiny and you needed to achieve or you needed to have, or you needed to do, whatever those were, those are. Those are small fry. Those are pathetic. Compared to becoming like Christ, that is small potatoes. That's being like Esau and selling your birthright for a bowl of soup, even if you achieve it. And you can see how happy Esau was after the soup was gone, How fulfilled he felt, right? Christ came because God wants you to flourish. He wants you to grow. He wants you to live. He wants you to live a life that's full of love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self control. He wants you to become like Christ. He wants you to live that way eternally. And he came to open up that path for you. The Incarnation is what changed everything. It's what brought our human nature back to life. It's what set our will free. And in favor of that, none of those voices have anything to promise us in comparison, nothing to offer. They only try to drag us back down. So the purpose of this episode tonight was not to tell you, hey, when you get to that page of the newspaper, like any of you read newspapers, but let's pretend. Don't you dare read the horoscopes. Don't you dare crack open and read that fortune cookie. Divination is evil, right? The purpose of this episode is so that we have hopefully one more thing to thank God for. That he set us free not only from all the demonic powers on this earth, but even from our fellow human beings, their expectations and demands on us, and even the expectations and demands that we put on ourselves. And that's what it means to be truly free.

[B]

Amen. Well, that's our show for tonight, everybody. Thank you very much for listening. If you didn't happen to get through to us live, we'd still like to hear from you. You can email us Lord of spirits@ancient faith.com. you can send us a message through our Facebook page. You can also leave us a voicemail speakpipe.com Lord of Spirits, if you have basic questions about Orthodox Christianity or you need help finding a parish, go to orthodoxintro.org and join us for our live.

[C]

Broadcasts on the second and fourth Thursdays of the month at 7pm Eastern, 4pm Pacific. Will the year start coming and they don't stop coming. Fed to the rules and I hit the ground running.

[B]

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[C]

And finally, be sure to go to ancientfaith.com support and help make sure we and lots of other AFR podcasters stay on the air. Didn't make sense not to live for fun. Your brain gets smart, but your head gets dumb.

[B]

Thank you, Good night. God bless you.

[A]

You've been listening to the Lord of Spirits with Orthodox Christian priests Fr. Andrew Stephen Damick and Father Stephen DeYoung, a listener supported presentation of Ancient Faith Radio and I beheld and I heard the voice of many angels rising round about the throne and the beasts and the elders, and the number of them was 10,000 times 10,000 and thousands of thousands, saying with a loud voice, worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power and riches and wisdom and strength and honor and glory and Blessing. Revelation, chapter 5, verses 11 through 12.