The Lord of Spirits Podcast

Episode Title: Who is this Son of Man?
Hosts: Fr. Andrew Stephen Damick, Fr. Stephen De Young (Ancient Faith Ministries)
Original Air Date: December 10, 2021

Episode Overview

This episode, the third in a four-part series on the Christology of the Old Testament, focuses on the profound biblical and theological question: “Who is this Son of Man?” The hosts traverse scripture, tradition, Second Temple Jewish texts, and even Rabbinic responses to explore the meaning, background, and implications of the phrase “Son of Man”—a title most frequently used by Jesus to refer to Himself. The conversation reveals how the figure of the Son of Man bridges the Old and New Testaments, shapes early Christian doctrine, and even provoked historic schisms between Christianity and Rabbinic Judaism.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Why Study “Son of Man”?

• [01:07–03:05]
  • The phrase appears over 100 times in the Old Testament (mainly in Ezekiel) and dozens of times in the Gospels.
  • Of the many titles for Christ (Son of God, Messiah, Word, Angel of the Lord), “Son of Man” is the one Christ consistently applies to Himself in all four Gospels.
  • Elsewhere in the NT, outside Jesus’ usage and OT quotations, it appears only once, in Acts 7:56, connecting St. Stephen’s martyrdom to Christ.

2. Old Testament Language and Usage

• [09:24–22:43]
  • “Son of Man” in Hebrew (“ben ish” and “ben adam/Adamah”) and Greek (“huios anthropos”).
  • The phrases are often interchangeable in Hebrew and Greek texts—focusing on humanity and mortality, weakness, or frailty, rather than just “a male person”.
  • OT usage often simply means “mortal” (see Job 25:6 – “man, who is a maggot, and son of man, who is a worm”).

3. Semitic Idiom and Theological Implications

• [17:02–21:51]
  • “Son of ___” is a Semitic idiom implying embodiment of a quality or resembling one’s source.
    • E.g., Barnabas = “Son of encouragement,” Judas Iscariot = “Son of perdition.”
  • Applied to Christ, “Son of Man” means He embodies the fullness of humanity—but not simply sinfulness, as some traditions (e.g., Augustine) presumed; it more directly connects to mortality and weakness.

4. Concentration in Ezekiel and Daniel—Exile as “Death”

• [24:04–31:47]
  • The name “Son of Man” is given to Ezekiel recurrently because he is among the exiled—a death-like state in the biblical imagination.
    • “Ezekiel is, in a very real way, a prophet to the undead.” (Fr. Stephen DeYoung, [28:57])
  • The phrase underlines fragility and mortality, especially in exile from the Temple.

5. The Paradigm Passage: Daniel 7

• [29:25–44:45]
  • Daniel 7 introduces a vision of the Ancient of Days (God) enthroned and “one like a Son of Man” coming on the clouds.
  • This passage, read in ancient Israel and Second Temple Judaism, is recognized as a depiction of two divine figures: the Ancient of Days and the Son of Man—both associated with Yahweh but distinct.
    • “Both the divine father figure and the divine son figure are both Yahweh, the God of Israel.” ([42:51])
  • The Son of Man is both human and divine, rides on the clouds (a motif of Baal and Yahweh), and is given everlasting dominion.
  • This passage lays the foundation for later Christian Christology (Trinity, Incarnation).

Notable Quote:

• “There are two figures, two persons who are both God, who are both Yahweh, the God of Israel; one a father, one a son, and the Son is also human. That’s in Daniel 7. You’re going to say that sounds like Christianity, and you’re right.” ([44:00] – Fr. Stephen DeYoung)

6. Icons of the Ancient of Days and Christ

• [46:02–58:43]
  • Discussion about iconography based on Daniel 7: depictions of the Ancient of Days (often with white hair) and the Son of Man.
  • The hosts distinguish between canonical restrictions and actual church practice, emphasizing that God is not limited by rules, but the church preserves order.
  • Iconographic controversies reveal deep connections between theology and tradition.

7. Second Temple Judaism and the “Two Powers in Heaven” Doctrine

• [70:04–73:45]
  • Daniel 7 provoked extensive debate in Judaism about the existence of “Two Powers in Heaven.”
  • The Second Power: Whom does “Son of Man” refer to? Second Temple Jewish texts variously identify him as a divinized human (e.g. Enoch, Elijah, Moses), a created heavenly being (Metatron, Michael, etc.), or as an eternal divine hypostasis of Yahweh (the latter being the Christian answer).

8. First Enoch and the Son of Man

• [89:30–121:24]
  • The Book of Enoch (1 Enoch) powerfully develops the theme: The Son of Man is a pre-existent, divine, human figure, chosen by God, who will judge powers and inherit dominion.
  • Enoch is quoted and alluded to throughout the NT (e.g. Matthew, Revelation, Jude), attesting to its influence.
  • First Enoch was considered important, at least as home-reading, in Orthodox tradition, though only canonical in the Ethiopian Church.

Notable Quote:

• “He shall be the light of the Gentiles and the hope of those who are troubled of heart… All who dwell on earth shall fall down and worship before him.”
  — 1 Enoch 48 (quoted at [120:43])

• The Magnificat (Mary’s song, Luke 1) itself directly echoes Enoch 46’s language about the Son of Man casting down the mighty.

9. Rabbinic Suppression and the Severance from Christianity

• [132:07–147:16]
  • After the rise of Christianity, Rabbinic Judaism deliberately censured the “two powers” theology and writing of speculative texts, narrowing its canon and oral tradition.
  • Talmudic tractates (e.g., Sanhedrin, Hagiga) present stories meant to discourage belief in a divine second figure (“heretics” are condemned).
  • The separation of Christianity from Judaism is partly rooted in disagreement over whether Daniel 7 (the Son of Man) refers to a divine Messiah.

10. The Son of Man in the New Testament

• [124:52–130:42]
  • Jesus refers to Himself as “Son of Man” more than any other title—framing Himself intentionally as the Danielic figure.
  • In critical moments, He applies Daniel 7 language directly to Himself—as He does before the Sanhedrin (Mark 14:61–64, Matthew 26:62–66).
  • The Judean authorities judge this as blasphemy, precisely because of the divine claim.

Memorable Moment:

• “From now on you will see the Son of Man seated at the right hand of Power and coming with the clouds of heaven.” (Jesus, Matthew 26:64, [130:04])
• “The text is using this [title] with no ambiguity. There’s really no getting around what the text is saying.” (Fr. Stephen DeYoung, [131:44])

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “Ezekiel is, in a very real way, a prophet to the undead. To the dead in Sheol.” (Fr. Stephen DeYoung, [28:57])
• “Daniel, in Daniel 7, is present to see the Ascension and enthronement of the Son of Man; God brings him there.” (Fr. Andrew Stephen Damick, [153:15])
• “Christ is the God who created the universe... when he comes in the Incarnation... he’s invading creation that’s fallen prey to the demonic forces, to start the battles that are going to lead to his great victory and enthronement.” (Fr. Stephen DeYoung, [157:37–159:56])
• On the separation from Judaism:
  “If you believe in [Two Powers], you’re going to be expelled from the synagogue and treated as a Christian. Rabbinic Judaism did not preserve [these texts]. It was Christians who preserved them.” (Fr. Stephen DeYoung, [134:08], [114:45])

Important Timestamps by Segment

• [01:07] – Introduction of Son of Man and its biblical usage
• [09:24]–[15:55] – Language: “Son of Man,” idiom, translation issues
• [24:04]–[29:25] – Ezekiel as “Son of Man” and exile/death motif
• [29:25]–[44:45] – Daniel 7, vision of the Son of Man, foundations for Christology
• [46:02]–[58:43] – Icons, canon law, and depictions of the Ancient of Days
• [70:04]–[73:45] – Daniel 7 in Second Temple Judaism: Two Powers in Heaven
• [89:30]–[121:24] – Authority and use of First Enoch (with extensive quotations)
• [124:52]–[130:42] – Son of Man in the Gospels, Jesus' self-identification, moment before the Sanhedrin
• [132:07]–[147:16] – Rabbinic reaction, Talmudic suppression of the “Two Powers”
• [157:19]–[159:56] – Reflection: The Incarnation, Christmas, and the awe-inspiring Christ

Further Reading (From the Hosts)

• Two Powers in Heaven by Alan Segal
• Borderlines by Daniel Boyarin
• The Glory of the Invisible: Two Powers in Heaven Traditions and Early Christology by Andrei Orlov
• Gospel of the Memra (article) by Daniel Boyarin
• Bodies of God by Benjamin Sommer
• Did Rabbinic Judaism Emerge out of Christianity? (YouTube lecture) by Israel Yuval

Conclusion

This rich and wide-ranging episode demonstrates that "the Son of Man" is not a bland claim to mere humanity, but a deliberate claim to be the divine figure of Daniel 7—Yahweh “in the flesh”—whose coming, enthronement, and final victory were both foreseen and present in the midst of the Old Testament saints. The phrase thus forms the core of Christian confession, the crux of the parting with Rabbinic Judaism, and the deep mystery celebrated in the Nativity.

Final Memorable Quote:

“He will be a staff for the righteous… the light of the nations… all who dwell on the earth will fall down and worship him… the Lord of Spirits.” – 1 Enoch, quoted at [00:00] and echoed throughout the show.