
Angels are active in the world. What does that activity actually look like? Is it just “benevolent haunting”? What about guardian angels? Join Fr. Andrew and Fr. Stephen as they also look at what all this means for human destiny.
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Narrator
He will be a staff for the righteous with which for them to stand and not to fall. And he will be the light of the nations and the hope of those whose hearts are troubled. All who dwell on the earth will fall down and worship him. And they will praise and bless and celebrate with song the lord of spirits. First Enoch, chapter 48, verses 4 through 5. The modern world doesn't acknowledge, but is nevertheless haunted by spirits, angels, demons and saints. In our time, many yearn to break free of the prison of a flat secular materialism, to see and to know reality as it truly is. What is this spiritual reality like? How do we engage with it? Well, how do we permeate everyday life with spiritual presence? Orthodox Christian priests, Father Andrew Stephen Damick and Fr. Stephen DeYoung host this live call in show focused on enchantment in creation, the union of the seen and unseen as made by God and experienced by mankind throughout history. Welcome to the Lord of Spirits.
Father Andrew Stephen Damick
Good evening, giant killers, dragon slayers, angels of the apocalypse. You are listening to the Lord of Spirits podcast. My co host, Father Stephen DeYoung, the bane of the banshee, is with me, straight from Swamp City and here.
Father Stephen DeYoung
Oh, sorry, not, not that.
Father Andrew Stephen Damick
In Lafayette, Louisiana. And I'm Father Edge Stephen Damick in Emmaus, Pennsylvania, perched precariously atop the arcane tower of podcasting, hovering tens, if not dozens or thousands of stories about a disused gateway to the underworld. We're not live this time.
Father Stephen DeYoung
Or are we?
Father Andrew Stephen Damick
You never know. I mean, how about what happened last.
Father Stephen DeYoung
Week when nobody wants to talk about that. They're sick of hearing about that big news story last week.
Father Andrew Stephen Damick
I know. Denmark, California invasion. I mean, who could have seen that coming? Yeah, Vikings on the loose once again. But we're not going to be taking any calls this time because this is probably a prerecorded episode. We'll get to those next time, God willing. So last time we talked about demonic possession, the action of demons generally in the world, and this time we're flipping the script, talking about the action of angels in the world. This is very retro 2020 era Lord of Spirits. So maybe this episode is going to be a little bit less creepy. So just will it, Father? I mean, I'm not saying you have to make promises.
Father Stephen DeYoung
All the angels are wheels with eyes.
Father Andrew Stephen Damick
Oh, is that creepy? I mean, a little startling maybe.
Father Stephen DeYoung
I mean a little bit. A little weird.
Father Andrew Stephen Damick
I know. It's funny that the quote unquote biblically accurate angels, they never do the wheel bit. It's always just lots and lots of.
Father Stephen DeYoung
Feathers and they Try sometimes there's, like. But it just. It looks like, you know, arm bands or something. Like, it doesn't really look like a wheel.
Father Andrew Stephen Damick
Yeah, right, right. I'm disappointed in all the memesters. Come on, you can do better.
Father Stephen DeYoung
Not like a wheel in the sky that keeps on turning.
Father Andrew Stephen Damick
Thank you for that. I was having a very 80s morning, actually. I saw someone did a trailer for Legends of Zelda as if it were like, every 80s T teen movie, which apparently someone made this, like, like 15 years ago. And I came across it again. It was very, very amusing. So look it up.
Father Stephen DeYoung
You're just, like, 15 years behind on the Internet is what you're saying.
Father Andrew Stephen Damick
I did live on Guam for five years, and that set me 15 years behind.
Father Stephen DeYoung
Did you see that Chocolate Rain video? Oh, did you see that one?
Father Andrew Stephen Damick
I have seen that one.
Caller/Guest
Yes.
Father Stephen DeYoung
Okay.
Caller/Guest
Yep.
Yep.
Father Andrew Stephen Damick
So angels. What's.
Father Stephen DeYoung
What's up with angels? Yeah. What's their deal?
Caller/Guest
Yeah.
Father Stephen DeYoung
So, yeah, we are going to be talking about angels and related things. And, yes, like last time, some of this is going to be pulling together threads from previous episodes. And by previous episodes, I mean very early episodes.
Caller/Guest
Yeah.
Father Stephen DeYoung
Episodes fraught with all manner of technical difficulties. So maybe this will help.
Caller/Guest
But.
Father Stephen DeYoung
And so we need to start by again, doing a little bit of. A little bit of review, a little bit of some of that material, which we're not going to belabor, but we do need to sort of touch on it. Refresher.
Caller/Guest
Right.
Father Stephen DeYoung
So the first thing, of course, is classically, you know, if there's one orthodox thing about angels that an orthodox person is aware of, it's the idea of the ranks of angels. Saint Dionysus, the Areopagite.
Caller/Guest
Right.
Father Stephen DeYoung
Those nine ranks being in order. Seraphim, Cherubim, thrones, dominions, virtues, powers, principalities, Archangels, and angels.
Father Andrew Stephen Damick
Nice. Did you rattle that off from memory? Probably not, no.
Father Stephen DeYoung
I can't do Sleepy, Happy, Grumpy, Dopey, Sneezy, Bashful, and Doc.
Father Andrew Stephen Damick
Oh, nice. My wife used to have all of that. Twas the Night Before Christmas memorized, actually.
Father Stephen DeYoung
Which I probably do accidentally.
Caller/Guest
Yeah.
Father Stephen DeYoung
But I'm not gonna try. I'm not gonna check. We memorize Luke 2 every year for her. Yes, that was the.
Father Andrew Stephen Damick
Now that I said this podcast people are gonna approach my wife and be like, okay, tell me that. You know they're gonna make her do that. I'm sorry.
Father Stephen DeYoung
When you get home, just say, you're welcome.
Caller/Guest
Yeah.
Father Andrew Stephen Damick
She'll be like, what?
Father Stephen DeYoung
This is definitely the day to give her such a gift. But anyway, not to let on when we're recording.
Father Andrew Stephen Damick
But actually she doesn't care about this day. Like, she literally actively opposes it.
Father Stephen DeYoung
It's a saint's day.
Father Andrew Stephen Damick
It is a saint's day. Saint Auxentius.
Caller/Guest
Yes.
Father Andrew Stephen Damick
Because everyone knows.
Father Stephen DeYoung
What if she got against Saint Auxentius?
Caller/Guest
I know, I know.
Father Stephen DeYoung
These people who war against the saints.
Caller/Guest
I don't get it.
Father Stephen DeYoung
Don't understand.
Father Andrew Stephen Damick
Deep cut there, Father Stephen. Deep cut, yeah. So there's those nine ranks.
Father Stephen DeYoung
Yes. And so now. But again, we have to. There are ways of understanding this that are less helpful. So one way of understanding this is that these are sort of species of angel.
Caller/Guest
Yeah.
Father Andrew Stephen Damick
Because especially because they're depicted differently. There's this idea of like, oh, it's this kind or it's that kind.
Caller/Guest
Right.
Father Stephen DeYoung
And so angels don't have species. There's a very good reason why they don't have species. They don't reproduce. Right, right.
Father Andrew Stephen Damick
That's kind of the definition of species is a group that can reproduce with each other.
Caller/Guest
Right.
Father Stephen DeYoung
So species kind of doesn't work. In fact, since they don't reproduce and they don't have material bodies, technically speaking, every angel is sui generis.
Caller/Guest
Right.
Father Stephen DeYoung
It's its own genera, meaning it's unique.
Caller/Guest
Yeah.
Father Stephen DeYoung
Each angelic being is unique. So then what are these ranks?
Caller/Guest
Right.
Father Stephen DeYoung
It's also not ranks in the sense that, like, well, you start out as an angel, you get your wings, now you're an angel, and then you kind of work your way up.
Caller/Guest
Right.
Father Stephen DeYoung
You put in 15 years and they make you an archangel. And then, you know, you keep working hard and, you know, maybe you could be a throne someday, kid. No, that's not.
Caller/Guest
Right.
Father Stephen DeYoung
How it works. This is. These are essentially roles or jobs.
Caller/Guest
That.
Father Stephen DeYoung
They have that these beings are entrusted with. That's what puts them in a particular rank. And then related to that job description, they are nearer or farther from God. What that means is not literal space, obviously, but it refers. It's a reference to the amount in which they participate in the glory of God. So there is a hierarchy. There are levels to this. There are levels to which they participate in God's grace, allowing them to perform the job, the tasks that are assigned to them by God. And we talked last time about the fact that God is doing this out of love. But we'll talk more about that later today. But this is, and this is obviously Saint Dionysius, if you understand how the celestial hierarchies, his text works, it works. It functions along with alongside, parallel to his ecclesiastical hierarchies. He's making a deliberate comparison.
Caller/Guest
Right.
Father Stephen DeYoung
And a bishop is not a different species than a layperson. A bishop and a layperson are both humans.
Caller/Guest
Right.
Father Stephen DeYoung
They just have a different role and a different task that God has called them to carry out.
Caller/Guest
Right.
Father Stephen DeYoung
And just like with the angelic beings, the idea is they are to be faithful in carrying out that role and those tasks.
Caller/Guest
Yeah.
Father Andrew Stephen Damick
And there is a hierarchy. Like it's, you know, some are first, some are second, some are. That's just the way that it is.
Father Stephen DeYoung
It doesn't mean my bishop is the boss of me.
Caller/Guest
Yeah.
Father Andrew Stephen Damick
It doesn't mean your bishop is necessarily a better person than you now.
Father Stephen DeYoung
Probably, but yes, in my case. Yes. But yes.
Father Andrew Stephen Damick
But, you know, it, it's.
Father Stephen DeYoung
Or holier sub deacons who are better people than me. I mean, this is not.
Caller/Guest
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Father Andrew Stephen Damick
So it's, it's not about. It's not about who's considered to be, you know, more holy or anything like that.
Caller/Guest
You're right.
Father Stephen DeYoung
The other issue related to this that sometimes causes confusion is so there is this second lowest quote unquote, lowest rank archangels.
Caller/Guest
Right.
Father Stephen DeYoung
And then there are the seven archangels. And sometimes people get confused about this. So they assume that those seven archangels. We're not going to talk about them a lot tonight. We've talked. But past episodes we have Saints Michael and Gabriel, Raphael, Uriel and then others, depending on which list you're looking at for which father. But those seven are in this second lowest rank. Some folks assume, or some folks assume that that second lowest rank only has seven members. Even though, for example, the liturgy, at one point in one of the prayers, we talk about there being thousands of archangels and ten thousands of angels.
Caller/Guest
Yeah.
Father Stephen DeYoung
You're like, well, wait a minute, I thought there were seven archangels.
Caller/Guest
Right.
Father Stephen DeYoung
So we have to remember how ark or arch works as a title. It just means first, literally. Or chief.
Caller/Guest
Right.
Father Stephen DeYoung
Ranking. So, like there are archbishops and arch priests.
Caller/Guest
Right.
Father Stephen DeYoung
And so that could be used to indicate this rank of which there are thousands of members. But it could also be used, as it is with the seven to say these are the seven chief angels out of all the angels of all the ranks. And if you pay close attention to the church's tradition, this is borne out. For example, the synaxaria of the feasts of St. Michael say that he's a seraphim.
Caller/Guest
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Father Andrew Stephen Damick
Well, and, you know, there's the reference, of course, in Revelation to these seven spirits who stand before the throne of God.
Father Stephen DeYoung
Right. Which is part of how Raphael introduces Himself in Tobit that we talked about last time.
Caller/Guest
Yeah, exactly.
Father Andrew Stephen Damick
Exactly.
Father Stephen DeYoung
Yeah. So the seven archangels don't necessarily belong to the rank archangels, and the rank of archangels includes a lot more than just seven. Those. Than just seven. So those. That term archangel is being used in different ways.
Caller/Guest
Yeah.
Father Stephen DeYoung
So we understand. And it's pretty clear when we read the Old Testament.
Caller/Guest
Right.
Father Stephen DeYoung
We see lots of angels doing things.
Caller/Guest
Right.
Father Stephen DeYoung
And we kind of see this sort of authority structure. God sends angels to do things. Angels are sort of intermediaries for various things. Second Temple tradition, for example, there's sort of an angelic intermediary or angelic intermediaries in terms of the giving of the Torah on Mount Sinai, etc. Angels get sent with messages. Archangels get sent with messages. St Raphael and Tobit, we're not going to rehearse every example of angels of the Old Testament now, but that God sort of administers things and sends his messengers, administers the creation through these angelic beings. Often, however, when we get to the New Testament, we have this particular mode of thinking that comes from a particular Protestant tradition that we've all kind of inherited in the United States where.
Caller/Guest
We.
Father Stephen DeYoung
Act as if all of that kind of drops out.
Caller/Guest
Right.
Father Stephen DeYoung
Because now we don't get a lot of talk about in the common sort of Christian world parlance in the United States. I'm talking about now, you don't hear anyone saying, I prayed to be healed and God sent an angel to heal me.
Father Andrew Stephen Damick
Yeah, yeah, right.
Father Stephen DeYoung
Like that's just not a way of speaking.
Caller/Guest
Right.
Father Stephen DeYoung
But used to be, commonly used to be. But it's not.
Caller/Guest
Right.
Father Stephen DeYoung
Everything is sort of God directly.
Caller/Guest
Yeah.
Father Andrew Stephen Damick
This kind of flattened hierarchy that just has God above and then everybody else.
Father Stephen DeYoung
Yeah. And so as if.
Caller/Guest
Right.
Father Stephen DeYoung
You know. Well, yes, these angels had all these jobs and had all these tasks and did all these things before Christ.
Father Andrew Stephen Damick
There's a big reduction in force.
Father Stephen DeYoung
Yes. There were just massive layoffs to the heavenly deep state at Christ's ascension.
Caller/Guest
Right.
Father Stephen DeYoung
And now I guess they're just out of work. But of course, there's no reason to believe that.
Caller/Guest
Right.
Father Stephen DeYoung
Rather, what we see happening in Christ's incarnation and ascension, and look at the hymns of the feasts of the ascension. And now that what they say in terms of angels, what has changed is that through the incarnation, through Christ becoming man, and then through him taking our humanity and elevating it to the throne of God, humanity has sort of ascended that hierarchy, ascended that authority structure. Hebrews gets into this a lot. So that now there's depending on whether you want to count the nine ranks down, with seraphim being rank one, or you want to count the other way with angels being rank one, there's either a new rank one or 10, or rank zero or rank zero, zero through nine, if you want to go that way. That is glorified humanity.
Caller/Guest
Yeah.
Right.
Father Stephen DeYoung
Saints and glory. And also for this, see Hymns to the Theotokos.
Caller/Guest
Right.
Father Stephen DeYoung
More honorable than the cherubim, more glorious than the seraphim.
Caller/Guest
Yeah.
Father Andrew Stephen Damick
Which. Those are the highest ranks of angels. So if she's above that, that's a higher rank.
Caller/Guest
Right. And.
Father Stephen DeYoung
A word here about the Theotokos, because I know we have non Orthodox listeners and non Roman Catholic listeners who probably involuntarily, even if they don't want to get a little bit of heebie.
Caller/Guest
Jeebies.
Father Stephen DeYoung
When we start talking about the Theotokos.
Caller/Guest
Okay.
Father Stephen DeYoung
But on this point and on all these points, Right. You have to remember that for the Orthodox Church, the Theotokos is the greatest human saint.
Caller/Guest
Right.
Father Stephen DeYoung
And so when we're talking about human saints, we're talking about redeemed humanity, glorified humanity. We use her as the primary example because she is the prime example of a glorified human, of a human who has dedicated their life to God. Now, some of you may be thinking, why don't we use Jesus? Because Jesus is God.
Caller/Guest
Yeah.
Father Andrew Stephen Damick
He didn't have to repent.
Father Stephen DeYoung
And I'm not. But I am a human like the Theotokos.
Caller/Guest
Right.
Father Stephen DeYoung
But the things we say about the Theotokos in this regard are true of glorified humanity in general in many cases.
Caller/Guest
Right.
Father Stephen DeYoung
She's just being used as an exemplar.
Caller/Guest
Yeah.
Father Andrew Stephen Damick
The difference between her and other saints is really a difference of degree.
Father Stephen DeYoung
Not in quantitative, not qualitative.
Father Andrew Stephen Damick
Yeah. In this particular case, obviously there are certain unique things about her. She gives birth to God himself, which.
Father Stephen DeYoung
No one else does.
Caller/Guest
Yeah.
Right.
But.
Father Stephen DeYoung
But there are other things we say about her that give people the heebie jeebies. Like that she didn't actually commit sins that we also say about, like St. John the Forerunner.
Caller/Guest
Yeah, yeah.
Father Stephen DeYoung
We were saying about St. John the Forerunner. People might give you a weird look, but they don't get the heebie jeebies the same way. And so if you're one of those folks, you should think about that for a minute. And what is it that's really giving you the heebie jeebies about the Theotokos? Is it just you've had some kind of homophobia hammered into you from childhood?
Caller/Guest
Right.
Father Stephen DeYoung
I say this as a Dutch person. That happens to people sometimes. So, yeah, so she's the exemplar. But she is an example of humanity has been glorified in Christ and therefore has ascended this angelic hierarchy. And what we mean by that, again, is not that now she's like part of the Trinity or a goddess or something like this in those kind of senses. What we mean by that is, again, redeemed humanity, glorified humanity is like another rank meaning. Has tasks.
Caller/Guest
Right.
Father Stephen DeYoung
Has things that they do on behalf of God.
Caller/Guest
Right.
Father Stephen DeYoung
Things that God has them do.
Caller/Guest
Right.
Father Stephen DeYoung
And this is something that I think everybody of any even vaguely Christian stripe agrees on in terms of the world to come. When we're talking about the life of the world to come, we're talking about the resurrection, we're talking about eternal life. Oh, yeah, we're going to have all these jobs, we're going to have things. We're not just going to be sitting around doing things. Unless you're a stare at the orb type.
Father Andrew Stephen Damick
Yeah. It's explicit in the Scriptures.
Caller/Guest
Right.
Father Andrew Stephen Damick
So, yeah, the age to come is subject. It's not to angels that the age to come is subject, as St. Paul says.
Caller/Guest
Right.
Father Stephen DeYoung
But it seems like for a large segment of folks, especially American evangelicals, they think the glorified saints just sort of twiddle their thumbs until then.
Caller/Guest
Right.
Father Stephen DeYoung
Like they're not doing anything. They don't.
Caller/Guest
They.
Father Stephen DeYoung
They reject soul sleep. So they're asleep, they're conscious, they're in heaven or with Christ or, you know, however it wants to be phrased. But they're not doing anything.
Father Andrew Stephen Damick
Playing harps.
Father Stephen DeYoung
Yeah, well, on clouds. And see, you can see how this is part and parcel of the same problem we mentioned earlier, because the angels also aren't really doing anything in the New Testament.
Father Andrew Stephen Damick
Right.
Caller/Guest
Yeah.
Father Stephen DeYoung
For a lot of those folks.
Caller/Guest
Right.
Father Stephen DeYoung
There's just sort of these. They're just enjoying life, I guess, or enjoying being angels, I don't know, singing. I don't know what they're doing all the time, but.
Caller/Guest
Right.
Father Stephen DeYoung
But this sense of having a role in a task sort of gets bracketed off for this New Testament era and some kind of weird celestial dispensationalism.
Caller/Guest
Right, that.
Father Stephen DeYoung
Oh, yeah. In the Old Testament. Yes. And in the world to come. Yes. But not now.
Caller/Guest
Right.
Father Stephen DeYoung
Right now it's just God doing everything directly.
Caller/Guest
Right.
Father Stephen DeYoung
But this idea, this understanding.
Caller/Guest
Right.
Father Stephen DeYoung
When you, when you take the understanding of angels and their roles.
Caller/Guest
Right.
Father Stephen DeYoung
That's clearly in the Old Testament scriptures. When you take the idea we've talked about before on the show about replacing fallen angelic beings, about glorified humans replacing full angelic beings. And then you add in the New Testament teaching of the incarnation of Christ that transcends even replacing angels to man was made a little lower than the angels, but exalted with glory and honor, first of all in Christ, and then Christ gives that benefit to us.
Caller/Guest
Right.
Father Stephen DeYoung
That's where the whole concept of saints comes from.
Caller/Guest
Yeah.
Father Stephen DeYoung
In the church.
Caller/Guest
Yeah.
Father Stephen DeYoung
From the early days.
Father Andrew Stephen Damick
Add on, you know.
Father Stephen DeYoung
Yeah. It's part and parcel of. Yes. They assume the kind of duties and do the kind of things that we see angels doing in the Old Testament.
Caller/Guest
Yeah.
Father Andrew Stephen Damick
I mean, you just kind of list it off, like delivering messages, protecting people, hearing prayers, passing them on to God, you know.
Caller/Guest
Yeah.
Father Andrew Stephen Damick
And especially if you, like, include all of church history, you see them doing things, you know, like being present at, like, alterations of the landscape, you know, stuff like this. Right. There's, you know, all the kind of stuff that you see angels doing in the Old Testament human saints are doing under the new covenant.
Father Stephen DeYoung
Right, right. And that will then continue in the life of the world to come.
Caller/Guest
Right.
Father Andrew Stephen Damick
I mean, this is why Jesus describes sons of the Resurrection as equal to the angels in Luke 20:36.
Caller/Guest
Right.
Father Stephen DeYoung
And the idea of venerating them, meaning showing them honor, is just the opposite of the biblical warnings we get in the New Testament against slandering angels.
Caller/Guest
Yeah.
Father Stephen DeYoung
Ever wonder what those are about? You ever just accidentally slander an angel? I don't get that a lot in confession.
Caller/Guest
Yeah.
Father Stephen DeYoung
I was talking trash on my guardian angel.
Father Andrew Stephen Damick
Oh, man, don't do that. Your guardian angel might be. Might switch sides on you.
Father Stephen DeYoung
That's a big no. Yeah, no for me, dog.
Caller/Guest
So.
Father Stephen DeYoung
What that also means is, and we talked last time about, or we reviewed sort of last time about what a spirit is.
Caller/Guest
Right.
Father Stephen DeYoung
Is that as being sort of a level of consciousness above human consciousness that can sort of animate and motivate human consciences.
Caller/Guest
Right.
Father Stephen DeYoung
On a collective level. Well, that means when someone becomes a saint, they become a spirit in that sense.
Father Andrew Stephen Damick
See, our spirit episodes.
Father Stephen DeYoung
Yeah. They exist in the noetic world, in the world of thoughts, the world of the mind, and they are able to. Then both angels and glorified humans are able to then function in that way.
Caller/Guest
Right.
Father Stephen DeYoung
And what is that way? What is the goal? Well, it's the opposite of what the demons do.
Caller/Guest
Right.
Father Andrew Stephen Damick
It's influencing and directing and guiding and shepherding, but towards God rather than towards destruction.
Caller/Guest
Right.
Father Stephen DeYoung
And so the demons have an end in themselves. Just destroying people.
Caller/Guest
Right.
Father Stephen DeYoung
They have no greater purpose. They're not trying to get you to go where. Worship Satan.
Caller/Guest
Right, Right.
Father Stephen DeYoung
They don't care. They'll destroy you however they can.
Caller/Guest
Right.
Father Stephen DeYoung
And they could do that through sort of casual, boring, depressive atheism.
Caller/Guest
Right.
Father Stephen DeYoung
And if that's the way to destroy you, that's how they'll do it.
Caller/Guest
Right.
Yeah.
Father Andrew Stephen Damick
Whatever it takes.
Father Stephen DeYoung
They don't care.
Caller/Guest
Right.
Father Stephen DeYoung
But angels have this very specific. And the saints have this very specific purpose of guiding people toward God. And Saint Dionysius and others say this was the purpose of the angels who God put over the nations, was to guide them back to God.
Caller/Guest
Right.
Father Stephen DeYoung
After God had to distance himself from them because of their sin at Babel. So this idea of guiding and shepherding is what they do. And again, this is what's going on with. With the Theotokos and why she's using it as an example. She always directs and leads people to her son.
Caller/Guest
Yeah.
Father Andrew Stephen Damick
In fact, in many icons, she's literally pointing at him.
Father Stephen DeYoung
Yes, yeah. And she's always depicted with him.
Father Andrew Stephen Damick
Not always.
Father Stephen DeYoung
Always.
Father Andrew Stephen Damick
Well, not always.
Caller/Guest
Always.
Father Stephen DeYoung
She's supposed to be always depicted.
Father Andrew Stephen Damick
So, I mean, there is a.
Father Stephen DeYoung
That is a rule, but like every other rule of the Orthodox Church.
Father Andrew Stephen Damick
Yeah, but there is a tradition of icons of her at the moment of the Annunciation in particular.
Father Stephen DeYoung
Well, but even there. There's the beam.
Caller/Guest
Right.
Father Stephen DeYoung
Where Jesus sometimes. So he's. He's in the picture.
Caller/Guest
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
But.
Father Andrew Stephen Damick
But yes, overall true. I just had to get in my chance to. I'm actually. You, you know.
Father Stephen DeYoung
No, no, you better shot. See if you're gonna. Actually, you should have brought up the icons of her birth.
Father Andrew Stephen Damick
Oh, there's that too. Or stuff like her as. As the abbess of Mount Athos.
Father Stephen DeYoung
Yeah.
Father Andrew Stephen Damick
This kind of thing.
Caller/Guest
Right.
Father Andrew Stephen Damick
You know, holy protection.
Father Stephen DeYoung
Like every rule of the Orthodox Church, there's exceptions.
Caller/Guest
Right.
Yes, Yep.
Father Stephen DeYoung
But when you're just depicting her.
Caller/Guest
Right.
Father Stephen DeYoung
So you could have a depiction of St. John the Forerunner or St. Nicholas, just an icon of them that doesn't have Jesus in it. Yeah, but you don't have an icon of the. You're not supposed to have an icon of the Theotokos like that without Jesus in it. And of course, as soon as you refer. One of the reasons why we refer to her all the time as the Theotokos is that keeps Christ in the picture.
Caller/Guest
Yeah.
Father Andrew Stephen Damick
Birth giver to God.
Caller/Guest
Yeah.
Father Stephen DeYoung
But so that's. That's again, she's pointing Christ, but St. John the Forerunner.
Caller/Guest
Right.
Father Stephen DeYoung
A lot of icons Especially icons that are going to go next to an icon of Christ or where Christ is in the icon, he's bowing toward him, gesturing toward him, pointing at him.
Caller/Guest
Right.
Father Stephen DeYoung
And this is the case of all of the saints.
Caller/Guest
Right.
Father Stephen DeYoung
They're pointing you, leading you, directing you to Christ. So one could ask the question, why doesn't God just come to humanity directly? Why the administrative state?
Caller/Guest
Yeah.
Father Andrew Stephen Damick
Wouldn't that be more efficient?
Father Stephen DeYoung
Doesn't God need to cut the waste? That whole bureaucratic layoffs again at the Ascension? Yeah. So there's a couple things we have to say about that. Number one, sometimes God does.
Caller/Guest
Yeah.
Father Stephen DeYoung
So see, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.
Caller/Guest
Yes.
Father Andrew Stephen Damick
He does talk directly to people sometimes.
Father Stephen DeYoung
He appears directly. He shows that he eats with them.
Caller/Guest
Right.
Father Stephen DeYoung
He wrestles with them.
Caller/Guest
Right.
Father Andrew Stephen Damick
I'm more Adam and Eve. I mean, for crying out loud.
Caller/Guest
Right?
Father Stephen DeYoung
Yeah. I mean, very directly. So God does that sometimes. And of course, see Christ in the New Testament.
Caller/Guest
Right.
Father Stephen DeYoung
But he doesn't always do that. Right. And there's something important to say, as we've said, as we just alluded to, with the Tower of Babel and with the flood, the presence of God, the direct presence of God is highly dangerous to sinful humanity.
Caller/Guest
Right.
Father Stephen DeYoung
And so there's that. That sort of approach can end up, you know, causing a flood and wiping out humanity.
Father Andrew Stephen Damick
And no one wants that.
Father Stephen DeYoung
No one wants that. But there's something more important than that.
Caller/Guest
Right.
Father Stephen DeYoung
Because it's clear from him appearing to Abraham and Isaac and especially Jacob, who are not exactly sinless, that God can do that without killing someone if he wants to.
Caller/Guest
Sure, sure.
Right.
Father Stephen DeYoung
So it's not that it's beyond God, but the more important thing that we alluded to a little bit ago is that is the whole reason why God create, created anything. And that's love.
Caller/Guest
Yeah.
Father Andrew Stephen Damick
Which is not exactly efficient.
Father Stephen DeYoung
Why is there anything rather than nothing?
Caller/Guest
Right.
Father Stephen DeYoung
Because of God's love. And so he created beings like us and like angels and other critters.
Caller/Guest
Right.
Father Stephen DeYoung
To share his love and his life with. Out of his love. And so a big part of love is sharing. We've now turned into Mr. Rogers.
Caller/Guest
Yeah.
Father Stephen DeYoung
And also, like I've said it before, and I'll say it again, Fred Rogers is the one saint produced by Presbyterianism.
Caller/Guest
Huh?
Father Stephen DeYoung
They got one.
Father Andrew Stephen Damick
Okay.
Father Stephen DeYoung
Only one. But they got one.
Father Andrew Stephen Damick
I do hope that they will dedicate a church to him or something, or at least some kind of building. Yeah.
Father Stephen DeYoung
I mean, the other thing is they ought to have something dedicated to Him.
Caller/Guest
Yeah, yeah.
Father Andrew Stephen Damick
A Pittsburgh shrine. You know, like a lot of this particular critique, like, you know, is based on this idea of efficiency. Like God. Can't God just directly go, you know, whatever. Why through saints, why through angels? But like efficiency, while a significant component of day to day human life and, you know, communal life and government, whatever, whatever, whatever is completely irrelevant to an omnipotent being. Like, in what sense does efficiency matter when there's no limits? Right? Just think about it for a second, boys and girls. It doesn't matter if you're God. It doesn't matter.
Father Stephen DeYoung
Have you seen the Sound of Music?
Father Andrew Stephen Damick
I have seen the Sound of Music.
Caller/Guest
Right.
Father Stephen DeYoung
Are you going to try and run your family with ruthless efficiency? Have we learned nothing from Rogers at Hammerstein? You gotta open up to love if you want to escape the Nazis. But anyway, yes, but, yeah, right, and so, yes, God doesn't need angels, he doesn't need us. He doesn't need me. No, right.
Father Andrew Stephen Damick
He can do anything he likes.
Father Stephen DeYoung
He doesn't need me to celebrate liturgy in order to work in the lives of my parishioners. No, no, he doesn't. He can work directly in their lives if he wants to.
Caller/Guest
Yeah, right.
Father Stephen DeYoung
But he's given me that privilege out of love.
Caller/Guest
Right?
Father Stephen DeYoung
And him giving me that privilege out of love, that way of him using that way of working in the lives through the Eucharist, through the sacraments of my parishioners also has created this community of parishioners that's a community of love, people who love each other and God help them, even love me for some reason.
Caller/Guest
Right?
Father Stephen DeYoung
That's all created by the way that God does this. That's what we're talking about when we say that God is doing this out of love, right? And for the purpose of love. And so, yes, he doesn't need to send the Archangel Gabriel to the Theotokos. Yeah, he could have just told the Theotokos directly.
Caller/Guest
Yep.
Father Stephen DeYoung
But he gives this mission to the Archangel Gabriel, who. Read our hypnography, right? Read the biblical text. This archangel, this highest ranking angelic being, is like honored and awed by this task he's been given.
Caller/Guest
Right?
Father Stephen DeYoung
That's a gift that God gave him.
Caller/Guest
Right.
Father Stephen DeYoung
And so, I mean, that's really what I meant by try running your family, try operating, functioning in your marriage based on efficiency, right?
Father Andrew Stephen Damick
Look, I told you last month that I love you.
Caller/Guest
Yeah.
Father Andrew Stephen Damick
Hasn't changed.
Father Stephen DeYoung
No time for this discussion, honey. I have work to do. Yeah, right, like that dog don't hunt, Right. Or try racing your kids based on ruthless efficiency. Watch what happens. I can tell you, I can warn you in advance. They'll all go crazy the second they get out from under your thumb.
Caller/Guest
If not.
Father Stephen DeYoung
That'S so. Yeah. And so that's not how God operates.
Caller/Guest
Right.
Father Stephen DeYoung
That's not how God operates. That's not really how we want him to operate. Do you want your relationship to God to be marked by ruthless efficiency? Created You. Yeah. You are not necessary to the equation. So maybe not.
Caller/Guest
Right.
Father Stephen DeYoung
Yeah. Now, again, I want to make very clear, we're not saying that there's something God can't do.
Caller/Guest
Yeah.
Father Andrew Stephen Damick
I mean, he could also use fear and surprise in addition to ruthless efficiency.
Father Stephen DeYoung
Yes. And a fanatical devotion to the Pope, which I do not have, by the way.
Father Andrew Stephen Damick
I was going to ask.
Father Stephen DeYoung
Fanatical or even non fanatical.
Caller/Guest
Right, right. But.
Father Stephen DeYoung
But yeah, we're not, we're not saying that there's something God can't do. As we said before on the show, anytime you see any theological principle or theological point being made that's premised on there being something God can't do.
Caller/Guest
Right.
Father Stephen DeYoung
You know, you should reject it. You know, this is nonsense saying God can't do blank.
Caller/Guest
Right.
Father Stephen DeYoung
Even if they say something to you like God can't sin.
Caller/Guest
Yeah.
Father Stephen DeYoung
That's time to interrogate what they mean by sin.
Father Andrew Stephen Damick
Mean by. Yeah, exactly.
Father Stephen DeYoung
And what's going on there.
Caller/Guest
Right.
Father Stephen DeYoung
Something that seems like, whoa, okay, that sounds right.
Caller/Guest
Well.
Father Stephen DeYoung
Nonetheless.
Caller/Guest
Right.
Father Stephen DeYoung
God can do anything he wants. Nonetheless. What we see, what's revealed to us in the world, what we know of God is His working in the world, his operations, his activities. And we observe that God works in certain ways based on love, based on sharing, based on. Right. These are ways that we observe him working.
Caller/Guest
Right.
Father Stephen DeYoung
And that's how we know who he is. And so we don't base our discourse on God on what we think he can and can't do. We base our discourse on God on how we see him working and what we see him doing. And what we see him doing in the Scriptures.
Caller/Guest
Right.
Father Stephen DeYoung
All through the Scriptures is operating through agents working through means in the world. The way he usually expresses his love for people is not like directly beaming it into their soul or their heart. Honestly, it isn't. It's through other people.
Caller/Guest
Yeah.
Father Stephen DeYoung
That's the most common way God shows His love. And this is all of these things. All of these things. This is why the Book of Acts is so important. The Book of Acts gets treated like it's just sort of an epilogue to the gospels.
Caller/Guest
Right.
Father Stephen DeYoung
And St. Luke's gospel in particular. But the Book of Acts is Very important for a bunch of reasons. But some of those reasons are what we're getting at right here. So, for example, we see angels coming and doing things in the Book of Acts just like they did in the Old Testament. That seems to imply that there's not a change in the role of angels after Christ's ascension.
Caller/Guest
Yeah.
Father Stephen DeYoung
If they're still doing the same things, like letting St. Peter out of prison.
Caller/Guest
Right.
Father Stephen DeYoung
So there's not. We see there's not a big shift there. Also importantly.
Caller/Guest
Right.
Father Stephen DeYoung
If we're, if someone were motivated to make the point that, like, well, okay, no, now there's Jesus. Right. So we have these Old Testament figures. Yeah, those old figures. Testament figures were important because they're sort of types of Christ. They sort of point us to who Jesus will be. But now we have Jesus. So, like, none of that's important anymore. We just focus on Jesus. Except the Book of Acts is in the New Testament and is mostly about St. Paul.
Caller/Guest
Yeah.
Father Stephen DeYoung
I mean, and also St. Philip, St. Stephen, St. Peter.
Father Andrew Stephen Damick
And here's the fun bit. At the very beginning, St. Luke writes, you know, in, in my, in the previous, in my former treatise, O Theophilus. I love that translation. But, you know, referring to his gospel.
Father Stephen DeYoung
He says, volume one in our last episode.
Caller/Guest
Yeah, exactly.
Father Andrew Stephen Damick
Volume one. This is, you know, Acts as volume two. You know, I, I wrote about all the things that Jesus began to do and to preach, meaning that the Book of Acts, which is basically, frankly, the earliest collection of saints lives, Christian saints lives, but mostly St. Paul, is Jesus continuing to do and to preach.
Caller/Guest
Right.
Father Stephen DeYoung
But he's doing that through human agents, through his disciples and apostles. His apostles being the ones he sent out to do these things.
Caller/Guest
Yeah, yeah.
Father Stephen DeYoung
And assign these tasks. So even in the New Testament.
Caller/Guest
Right.
Father Stephen DeYoung
God is administering his creation, working in his creation through means, which includes glorified human saints, includes the angels, as it always has, and it includes humans here on earth.
Caller/Guest
Yep, yep.
Father Andrew Stephen Damick
So. All right. Well, that's our first half for this episode. We're talking about angels. And we'll be right back.
Narrator
Father Andrew, Stephen Damick and father Stephen DeYoung will be back in a moment to take your calls on the next part of the Lord of Spirits. Give them a call at 855-237-2346. That's 855-AF-RADIO.
Announcer
The centuries after the Protestant Reformation brought about a radical reinterpretation of The Epistles of St. Paul, disconnected from any historical reality. But Paul operated during his entire life as a faithful Pharisee within the Roman Jewish world. In St. Paul the Pharisee, Jewish apostle to all nations, Father Stephen DeYoung surveys Paul's life and writings, interpreting them within the holy tradition of the Orthodox Church. This survey is followed by De Young's interpretive translation of St. Paul's epistles, which deliberately avoids overly familiar terminology. By using words and ideas grounded in 1st century Judaism, DeYoung hopes to unsettle commonly held notions and help the reader reassess St. Paul in his historical context. Available now at store.ancient faith.com Again, that is store.ancient faith.com.
Narrator
We'Re back now with the Lord of Spirits with Father Andrew, Stephen Damick, and Father Stephen DeYoung. If you have a question, call now at 855-8523-7-2346. That's 855-AF-RADIO.
Father Andrew Stephen Damick
All right, we're back. It's the second half of this pre recorded episode of the Lord of Spirits podcast. So if you call, we will not answer. Someone else.
Father Stephen DeYoung
Someone might, though, so see what happens.
Father Andrew Stephen Damick
Probably not. Don't bug Trudy. We gave her the night off.
Father Stephen DeYoung
Well, then she won't answer the phone, will she? There you go. Won't be there. Exactly.
Caller/Guest
Exactly.
Father Andrew Stephen Damick
Someone else could be working late. Like, oh, I wonder who's calling?
Father Stephen DeYoung
That's what I'm saying. Maybe they'd. Some telephonic company. It could be. Could be. They're burning the midnight oil.
Caller/Guest
Yeah.
Father Andrew Stephen Damick
We're talking about angels. Last time we talked about demons and their activity in the world, and this time we're talking about angels and their activity in the world. And we just did a kind of review, actually, of a lot of stuff that we've discussed in previous episodes. Who are angels? What are angels? What do they do in the scriptures? And then also the fact that God works through agents, you know, that are not always directly. And that's okay because he doesn't need to be efficient because he's God and he loves us and wants to share. How about that?
Father Stephen DeYoung
Let's go watch the Sound of Music. Seriously.
Father Andrew Stephen Damick
I know. I kind of wonder sometimes, like, what people's view of God is that they think that efficiency is this really important thing. Like, how do they understand who God is? Is he God?
Father Stephen DeYoung
Well, he's definitely a capitalist. I mean, we know that for sure.
Father Andrew Stephen Damick
He's definitely a.
Father Stephen DeYoung
Whenever he blesses a preacher, it's by giving them a lot of money.
Father Andrew Stephen Damick
Yeah, clearly.
Caller/Guest
Yeah.
Father Andrew Stephen Damick
Like he's sitting on top of some big machine that works in a particular way that he set up. I feel like that's the notion of God that says that he has to be efficient, that saints and angels are not really, you know, do you have to go through them? You know, we'll talk more about that, of course, as we go. So. All right, so let's. Let's talk a little bit more about angels as they actually. As we experience them, as they're actually acting in the world in a more experiential level and not just the sort of theoretical level we've been talking about.
Father Stephen DeYoung
Yeah, yeah. So, yeah, as we said, angels have jobs.
Caller/Guest
Right.
Father Stephen DeYoung
They have assignments. They have roles that they play is actually the better term. And because job, we don't want to get too little. Again, God not a capitalist per se. We don't want to get too literal about the jobs thing. There's no promotions, as we talked about. Right. This is. But the tasks and assignments of angels can change.
Caller/Guest
Right.
Father Stephen DeYoung
If you.
Caller/Guest
Right.
Father Stephen DeYoung
So the archangel Gabriel, when he appears in Scripture, is doing different things.
Caller/Guest
Yeah.
Father Stephen DeYoung
So like, what he's doing in Daniel, for example, and what he's doing when he comes to the Theotokos are two different missions, tasks, roles, jobs.
Caller/Guest
Right.
Father Stephen DeYoung
So there are different things.
Caller/Guest
Right.
Father Stephen DeYoung
And of course, those could be taken away because as we talked about under the heading of demons, there are angels who fell. There are other reasons why God takes things away. The angels who were placed over the nations didn't fulfill their task. And as we've talked about before the show, see Psalm 82, which is the judgment they receive for that. And then see Matthew, the end of Matthew 28, and Christ saying, right before his ascension, all authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore, go make disciples of all nations.
Caller/Guest
Yeah.
Father Andrew Stephen Damick
I mean, could it be said that when they walked off the job that they. That they ghosted?
Father Stephen DeYoung
No. Oh, okay. Because they didn't actually walk off the job.
Father Andrew Stephen Damick
Oh.
Father Stephen DeYoung
They had to be escorted out by security. Oh, that's.
Caller/Guest
Yeah, that's true.
Father Stephen DeYoung
So, okay, I thought I had a.
Father Andrew Stephen Damick
Decent little joke there, but no.
Father Stephen DeYoung
Yeah, you're trying. I'm all about.
Father Andrew Stephen Damick
It's some new material. I gotta try it out.
Father Stephen DeYoung
You're still working it out on the road. Yeah, that's right.
Caller/Guest
But yeah.
Father Stephen DeYoung
And for anyone who still doubts that interpretation we just quickly gave, I would note to you that in the Holy Saturday liturgy, we sing Psalm 82 and then we read the end of Matthew 28.
Father Andrew Stephen Damick
So, yeah, they're directly connected.
Father Stephen DeYoung
And Psalm 82 is sung as the gospel hymn. As the introduction to that gospel reading.
Father Andrew Stephen Damick
Exactly. It's not just. It replaces the alleluia so, like, it's literally connected to the gospel. It's not just the thing that comes before for it. Yes, it's directly connected.
Caller/Guest
Yeah.
Father Stephen DeYoung
That.
Caller/Guest
Yes.
Father Stephen DeYoung
Singing. Somebody who introduces that gospel reading. So the church has ruled on this liturgically, folks.
Caller/Guest
Yeah, yeah.
Father Stephen DeYoung
You know, so take your. Your passel of half fake patristic quotes you got from chat GPT and go pound sand. Thank you.
Father Andrew Stephen Damick
Sadly, a real thing.
Father Stephen DeYoung
I know. But yeah. So probably the assignment when we're thinking about different roles and tasks that angels are assigned, probably the one that's most, as Father Andrew said at the beginning of this half that's most experientially relevant to us is our guardian angel.
Caller/Guest
Right.
Father Stephen DeYoung
The one that's assigned to me.
Caller/Guest
Right.
Father Stephen DeYoung
Because I'm a narcissist. That's the most important one. So. And so again, this is something we get questions about because we've talked about this other show, and I know this is affliction. I know folks can't help it.
Caller/Guest
Right.
Father Stephen DeYoung
And they're trying to get over it. But we still have this spreadsheet thing where we're trying to fill in our boxes. And so one of the questions we get an awful lot is, right, because of course, there is this tradition, and it's in the prayers that a guardian angel is assigned to someone when they're baptized. And this over time has gotten us a legion of questions about, well, what if I was Chrismated?
Caller/Guest
Right.
Father Stephen DeYoung
Does that mean anybody who's not in the Orthodox Church doesn't have a guardian angel? Does the baby not have a guardian angel until it gets baptized? Does. You know, what about later on in the liturgy, in the litanies where we ask for an angel of peace, a faithful guide, a guardian for our souls and bodies? Why do we have to ask for one if we got assigned one at baptism?
Caller/Guest
Right.
Father Stephen DeYoung
When we say the prayers for someone who's traveling, why do we ask God to send an angel like Saint Raphael with Tobit if you already have one?
Caller/Guest
Right.
Father Stephen DeYoung
And people get very confused. That's because you're trying to put these things in boxes, Right. They don't have to be in boxes. Let them breathe. Poetry is okay. It doesn't all have to be prose.
Father Andrew Stephen Damick
Amen.
Father Stephen DeYoung
And so, yes, it is true on the one hand, that there is a tradition. We believe that a person who is baptized or a person who becomes a Christian, they have an angel assigned to watch over them and spiritually protect them and most importantly, do what we were talking about in the last half, guide them in their life toward God. Toward Christ.
Caller/Guest
Right.
Father Stephen DeYoung
That is the guardian angel's most important task to help guide.
Caller/Guest
Right.
Father Stephen DeYoung
But we also pray all the time for that angel to watch over us and protect us.
Caller/Guest
Right?
Yeah.
Father Stephen DeYoung
And because, as we just said, assignments can change. Some of those prayers have as their subtext. Man, I've been doing a lot of rotten stuff that my guardian angel, being holy, doesn't want to know about and doesn't want to see. Don't take him away.
Caller/Guest
Yeah.
Father Andrew Stephen Damick
And then there's also, you know, I.
Father Stephen DeYoung
Still need his help.
Father Andrew Stephen Damick
That 1983 Scorpion song, Send me an angel.
Caller/Guest
Right now. Yeah.
Father Stephen DeYoung
That was for our European listeners. So. Yeah. So we don't have to totally nail this down. Right. But yes. Oh, man, that Amy Grant song just came into my head. Nightmare fuel. Okay, moving on.
Father Andrew Stephen Damick
Do you need to take a moment, Father?
Father Stephen DeYoung
I need. Well, I need a stiff drink, but I don't think I should take one on the air. So. But so angels, Right. Also, it's important to recognize, just like demons, angels have their own agency.
Caller/Guest
Right.
Father Stephen DeYoung
Angels are not just like sock puppets God uses. Right. Like.
Caller/Guest
Yeah.
Father Stephen DeYoung
Or inanimate tools.
Caller/Guest
Right.
Father Stephen DeYoung
They have a will. But the reason it's important to make this point is our weird, distorted view of free will.
Caller/Guest
Right?
Father Stephen DeYoung
Our weird, this is a very modern thing, distorted version of free will is, well, demons have free will because demons do what they want, but angels don't. Because angels just do whatever God tells them.
Caller/Guest
Right.
Father Stephen DeYoung
Well, first of all, if they don't have free will, how did there end up being demons?
Caller/Guest
That's.
Yeah.
But.
Father Andrew Stephen Damick
Checkmate.
Father Stephen DeYoung
Yeah, take that. But no, angels have their own agency. The fact that you voluntarily align your will and your activity with God's will and God's activity, like we were talking about in the last episode, the fact that you choose to do that does not mean you don't have free will. It means you have freely done that.
Father Andrew Stephen Damick
I mean, this is one of the things that sometimes people, skeptics of religion, quote unquote, will sometimes say, like, well, you only think that or do that because your. Your priest or your pastor, your bishop told you to. You know, I'm like, that one's making me be here.
Caller/Guest
Yeah.
Father Stephen DeYoung
You know, I am on my own recognizance. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's. And even. And this is. This is important, an important principle in orthodox life.
Caller/Guest
Right.
Father Stephen DeYoung
When we. And we've talked about this on the show before, we're talking about, like, the concept of obedience.
Caller/Guest
Right.
Father Stephen DeYoung
For obedience to be obedience, it has to be freely given.
Caller/Guest
Yeah.
Father Andrew Stephen Damick
It's a Voluntary aligning. I mean, literally voluntary. That means according to the will.
Father Stephen DeYoung
Yeah. If you're enslaved, right, you are not being obedient, you are being threatened and punished and forced to do things.
Caller/Guest
Right.
Father Stephen DeYoung
Like, that's not the same thing as someone in authority telling you to do something and you voluntarily obeying that command. Those are two different things. So. Yeah. So angels are the same way, right? They have their own agency as spirits. They're spirits. They're not ideas. They're not sock puppets. They're not drones. They have their own agents and they.
Caller/Guest
Right.
Father Stephen DeYoung
As we just alluded to, how did there get to be demons? Okay, a little more detail, because we talk about this, we've talked about, you know, we talk about all the time, angels falling. And we've talked about that with a little more nuance, I think, on this show than a lot of places. But what does that concretely mean? And how concretely does that happen?
Caller/Guest
Right?
Father Stephen DeYoung
And we've even used some terminology where if you press it, like, what does that mean? So, like, when we've talked about the angels who are set over the nations, we've talked about the, you know, the, the, the humans of that nation start worshiping them as gods. And we've used language like, well, they accept it.
Caller/Guest
Yeah.
Father Andrew Stephen Damick
What does that mean? What does that mean behind some altar somewhere? And, and yes, Give me, give me, give me, give me. That, that.
Father Stephen DeYoung
Yes. Thank you for the smoke. Thank you for burning those bones.
Caller/Guest
Right.
Father Andrew Stephen Damick
Is it like in the Iliad, you know, where they're up there going, smells great, I'm going to give you favor and war.
Father Stephen DeYoung
Yeah, Right. So what that means is, what we're talking about is we're talking about an angelic being aligning its will with a human will.
Caller/Guest
Hmm.
Father Stephen DeYoung
So it, this is why in each of the Angelic Falls, all 5ish of them that we reiterated last time, there is this human component, right. It is commensurate with some group of humans also falling.
Caller/Guest
Right.
Father Andrew Stephen Damick
It's not this separate event that we sort of hear about objectively.
Caller/Guest
Right.
Father Stephen DeYoung
And so in each of those cases, every time that happens, there is some angelic being and some human being or beings, right, who align their wills with each other over against aligning themselves with God's will.
Caller/Guest
Right.
Father Stephen DeYoung
So angelic falls happen in communion with humanity.
Caller/Guest
Yeah.
Father Andrew Stephen Damick
Which is. I mean, this is why St. Paul says, don't eat pagan sacrifices, because that's basically don't do communion with demons because it's going to drag you down.
Caller/Guest
Right.
Father Stephen DeYoung
And this is. I mean, they understood this St. Paul understands this. The passage in 1 Corinthians you're talking about reflects that. But this is how the pagans understood it. They were in communion with their gods. They were part of a community with their gods.
Caller/Guest
Right.
Father Stephen DeYoung
And there was this relationship.
Caller/Guest
Right.
Father Stephen DeYoung
Of give and take.
Caller/Guest
Right.
Father Stephen DeYoung
And of being shaped.
Caller/Guest
Right.
Father Stephen DeYoung
And you can see Plato talking about the age of Cronus, where the gods were first assigned and they were all sort of peaceful and merciful shepherds. And then something happened. And now not so much for Plato.
Caller/Guest
Right.
Father Stephen DeYoung
Yeah. And so that sort of concretely, if you want the how that happens, that's how that happens. And by the way, that is the answer to the whole puzzling question. People roll over and over again all the time of like, well, wait, how can angels be mutable if they don't have physical bodies? Why can't they repent? Why can't be beautiful?
Caller/Guest
Right.
Father Stephen DeYoung
Because this happens.
Caller/Guest
Right.
Father Stephen DeYoung
In terms of humans who do have physical bodies that are mutable, that has happened through communion with humans. And you know those Minority Report of weird stories where you do see a demon, something happens akin to repentance. They become an angel again. There's a few stories, the Desert Fathers, where that happens. In every one of those stories, it's through communion with a human, a particularly holy human.
Caller/Guest
Yeah.
Father Stephen DeYoung
Which kind of suggests a human saint.
Father Andrew Stephen Damick
Humans have power over angels.
Father Stephen DeYoung
Yes. That's through whom. They're almost like we're going to judge them someday.
Caller/Guest
Huh.
Father Andrew Stephen Damick
I feel like I read that somewhere.
Caller/Guest
Yeah.
Father Stephen DeYoung
Like we're in the hierarchy above them. Glorified humans are in the hierarchy above them. It's almost like that.
Caller/Guest
Yeah.
Father Stephen DeYoung
A lot of what St. Paul says in this regard assumes the Incarnation.
Caller/Guest
Right.
Father Stephen DeYoung
Even though he never straight comes out and says, and this is why, again, somebody like Bart Ehrman even thinks. He now roughly thinks that St. Paul was an Arian. He doesn't think. He isn't fully there yet, but he has moved from the position that St. Paul didn't think Jesus was divine to. Oh, no, there is some kind of incarnation thing happening here in the background that's fundamental to his logic.
Father Andrew Stephen Damick
Come on over. Bart Ehrman for the show.
Father Stephen DeYoung
So almost there.
Father Andrew Stephen Damick
Keep going, Keep going.
Father Stephen DeYoung
Don't call in tonight. Next live show, call in and we'll talk about it.
Caller/Guest
Yeah, absolutely.
Father Andrew Stephen Damick
We'll just clear everything off the.
Father Stephen DeYoung
Well, I will. I will clear the decks and just talk to Bart Urban for three hours. If he wants to talk for three hours. I doubt he wants to talk to me for three hours. I don't know that he wants to talk to me for five minutes, but I really doubt. Three hours, but open invitation, but I would if you wanted to. And yeah, so, but so what that's showing is, again, we talked about this last time, humans have a noose, have a mind, right. We are the type of being that overlaps the spiritual world, the world of thoughts, the noetic world, and the physical material world.
Caller/Guest
Right.
Father Stephen DeYoung
And we experience all of that together. Again, that's kind of the theme of this show. The overarching theme of the show is that humans experience all of that, even if they want to deny part of it, they still experience it and participate in it. Angelic beings are in that noetic layer of the created world. My dogs are in the physical, material part of that creation. Human beings overlap it. And so that's why there is, in the same way that humanity has a certain relationship to the rest of the material creation vis a vis, representing it to God.
Caller/Guest
Right.
Father Stephen DeYoung
Humanity also has a role, especially in light of the incarnation, in terms of.
Caller/Guest
The.
Father Stephen DeYoung
Noetic realm, the realm of angels and demons. And that's what St. Paul is getting at there with the, with the judging angels. But so that world, that world of thoughts, that noetic world, that world of the noose.
Caller/Guest
Right.
Father Stephen DeYoung
That we perceive through our mind, that's where angels, not just demons, but also angels, operate primarily when you're not seeing them, which is most of the time.
Caller/Guest
Right.
Father Stephen DeYoung
And in that world of thoughts, just as demons come and throw thoughts at us, sometimes described as darts, that whole reshef analogy that comes through the psalms, angels come with positive thoughts, with godly thoughts, thoughts of God. And those likewise are thoughts that we could choose to focus on. As St. Paul says, whatever is good, whatever is pure, whatever is noble, think on these things.
Caller/Guest
Yeah.
Father Andrew Stephen Damick
I mean, and we all have this experience too, right? Like you'd be just doing something, and then something very good will occur to you. And if you're like me, you kind of go, that's nice, and move on most of the time. But actually, how.
Father Stephen DeYoung
Back to this social media post that's making me angry.
Father Andrew Stephen Damick
Yeah, exactly. But you know, just, hey, hey, pay attention to those thoughts a little bit more. If you can, you know, and think, wait, could I do that? Usually the answer is yes.
Caller/Guest
Right.
Father Stephen DeYoung
And the, the. And as we talked about last time, those are the thoughts that we need to be building into ideas.
Caller/Guest
Yeah.
Father Stephen DeYoung
Like work with that and ideas that we then act upon.
Caller/Guest
Right.
Father Stephen DeYoung
That we then put to work in our lives. Yeah, yeah, right, yeah. Rather than the other thoughts.
Caller/Guest
Right, yeah.
Father Stephen DeYoung
This is Part of what we're talking about last time with replacing the negative with the pot. Right. The idea is these things, these good things, we take those, focus on those and build those.
Father Andrew Stephen Damick
Right?
Caller/Guest
Yeah, yeah.
Father Andrew Stephen Damick
Like, I mean, a thought comes into your head, it's good to ask this question of this, of the thought. Is this thought going to help my salvation or harm it? And, you know, usually the answer to that question is pretty straightforward and easy. And then, you know, based on that, you can focus on the thought or tell it to take a hike.
Father Stephen DeYoung
Yeah, yeah. Now we have to make a note here because there's another place where sort of Calvinist Puritan Protestant tradition rears its ugly head in American evangelicalism. And that's that this stuff we're talking about with angels and thoughts, if you're used to hearing anything like that in the American Christian world, it's probably all attributed to the Holy Spirit.
Father Andrew Stephen Damick
Yeah, the Holy Spirit told me.
Father Stephen DeYoung
Yeah, the Holy Spirit told me this.
Father Andrew Stephen Damick
Often it's the Holy Spirit told me to tell you.
Caller/Guest
Yeah.
Father Stephen DeYoung
You know, the Holy Spirit gave me this. Or, you know.
Caller/Guest
Yeah, God.
Father Stephen DeYoung
The thing that always ground my gears when I'd hear somebody. I was going to talk about something totally different, but the Holy Spirit really laid it on my heart to say this. Then they say something that's just absolutely incorrect about the Bible.
Caller/Guest
Yes.
Father Stephen DeYoung
Like verifiably, factually incorrect. And I'm like, that wasn't the Holy Spirit, bro.
Father Andrew Stephen Damick
Yeah, God laid it on my heart. That's something you hear a lot.
Father Stephen DeYoung
Technically, you just blasphemed. No, that is. That's blasphemy.
Father Andrew Stephen Damick
Yeah.
Caller/Guest
No, I know.
Father Stephen DeYoung
Taking your own words and claiming they're the words of God.
Caller/Guest
Yeah.
Father Stephen DeYoung
Okay. Claiming God told you something that isn't true. That's blasphemy.
Father Andrew Stephen Damick
I think. Yeah. I think it's because, you know, people, for whatever reason, people have been trained that a strong feeling or a good feeling or something making sense to them equals the action of God directly on them.
Caller/Guest
Right.
Father Andrew Stephen Damick
But.
Father Stephen DeYoung
And you can, you can weaponize this.
Father Andrew Stephen Damick
Yeah.
Father Stephen DeYoung
And people, I'll give you a recent example that I found fascinating. So, prominent Protestant Internet apologist, okay. But my personal favorite Roman Catholic apologist, I'm not going to name any names here, but my personal favorite Roman Catholic apologist, for various reasons, makes a video just like, logically, point by point, annihilating this whole talk given by this Protestant.
Caller/Guest
Right.
Father Stephen DeYoung
Apologist.
Caller/Guest
Okay.
Father Stephen DeYoung
So, of course, people, both people on the Roman Catholic side and people on the Protestant apologist side want the Protestant apologist to Respond to this. Okay, so Deluge thinks, hey, are you going to respond to this? Are you going to respond to this, man? Like, it really sounds like you kind of wrecked. Wrecked your battleship. Right?
Father Andrew Stephen Damick
Like you're totally pwned.
Father Stephen DeYoung
Yeah. Like, are you. When are you going to respond to this? Are you ready for the response they got from all sides? God, in terms of, will he address this?
Father Andrew Stephen Damick
Sitting on the edge of my seat here?
Father Stephen DeYoung
Do you want person's name to spend time on this rather than the things God has given him to talk about?
Father Andrew Stephen Damick
Wow.
Caller/Guest
Wow.
Father Andrew Stephen Damick
Amazing.
Father Stephen DeYoung
So, yeah. Talk about weaponization.
Caller/Guest
Right?
I know.
Father Stephen DeYoung
And what is buried in there? The claim that every video this Guy releases on YouTube is coming from God.
Caller/Guest
Right, Right.
Father Stephen DeYoung
This isn't a charismatic guy who would call himself a prophet, but he's basically claiming to be a prophet when he says that.
Father Andrew Stephen Damick
I know it's. And it's, you know, it's obviously wrong on its face. Right. Because. Because the problem is the people who make these claims for themselves or about the guy that they're simping for, you know, what about the fact that other people who are making those exact same claims say things that contradict what, you know, prophet number one is saying? Then you have to pick between them, and then it's like, well, why should you pick this guy and not this guy? You know, why is this set of opinions, though? This is the set of opinions from the Holy Spirit. This one guy has it, which, I mean, okay, yes, that's theoretically possible, but that's not Christianity, you know.
Caller/Guest
Right.
Father Andrew Stephen Damick
This is not the Messiah. Right. I actually read someone. Someone the other day on. On the tweeters said, you know, if you dislike so and so. Speaking of a. Of an orthodox figure online, if you dislike so and so, then you oppose the church. Father. Whatever. I'm like your buddy there is not Jesus, you know.
Father Stephen DeYoung
Yeah. You know, he is not the church fathers, even.
Father Andrew Stephen Damick
Yeah. He's also not. Yeah, exactly.
Father Stephen DeYoung
Like, you know, he's not even one of the church fathers.
Father Andrew Stephen Damick
I'm like, oops, you kind of did an idolatry there.
Father Stephen DeYoung
Yeah. He's not even a saint yet.
Father Andrew Stephen Damick
Right, Exactly.
Father Stephen DeYoung
Maybe someday, but.
Father Andrew Stephen Damick
Exactly. Simply easy.
Father Stephen DeYoung
Oh, stops it, everyone. Like, if you are an adult man, okay, there are ways you should never talk to another adult man. But I get emails anyway. Just stop.
Caller/Guest
Right.
Email.
Father Stephen DeYoung
But. So here's what we're suggesting. We're not just, hey, let's pick on the way evangelicals talk. That's not. That's honestly not what we're trying to do.
Father Andrew Stephen Damick
Right? No, no.
Father Stephen DeYoung
What we're trying to say is. And the reason I gave. The example I gave is that's where that just. Oh, way of talk. Well, yeah, that's just a way of talking. It got kind of weaponized in a weird way.
Caller/Guest
Right?
Yeah.
Father Stephen DeYoung
Like to shut down discussion, to not have to be accountable, have some restraint.
Father Andrew Stephen Damick
Like. Like, it's like say.
Father Stephen DeYoung
No, no. Just here, you say this. You say this because this is what we're saying. The truth is.
Caller/Guest
Right.
Father Stephen DeYoung
You say a thought occurred to me.
Caller/Guest
Right.
Father Stephen DeYoung
And I think it's a good one. And here's my idea based on that.
Caller/Guest
Yeah.
Father Stephen DeYoung
Here's my fallible idea.
Caller/Guest
Right.
Father Stephen DeYoung
Because as we talked about, when you move last time, when you move from a thought to an idea, your subjectivity comes into it. My subjectivity comes into it.
Caller/Guest
Yeah.
Father Stephen DeYoung
You're engaged, therefore it's fallible.
Father Andrew Stephen Damick
That's right. That's right.
Caller/Guest
Yeah.
Father Stephen DeYoung
That thought did come from God through an angel. I might get it wrong.
Father Andrew Stephen Damick
Right, Right. I think there should just be a whole lot more, a whole lot less of God laid it on my heart and a whole lot more, it seems to me.
Caller/Guest
Yeah.
Father Stephen DeYoung
This is coming from me.
Caller/Guest
Yeah.
Father Stephen DeYoung
Like, this is coming from me. Not directly from God. Not even directly from an angel. It's coming from me.
Caller/Guest
Right.
Yep.
Father Stephen DeYoung
But I think this is.
Caller/Guest
Right.
Father Stephen DeYoung
That's. You know. Yeah.
Caller/Guest
And that.
Father Andrew Stephen Damick
You don't get as many clicks that way. Father.
Father Stephen DeYoung
None of my books. Yeah. I had a really disappointed parishioner because I pointed out to them that if I went back and read Religion of the Apostles right now.
Caller/Guest
Right.
Father Stephen DeYoung
That I wrote. I technically I wrote it like six years ago.
Caller/Guest
Yeah.
Right.
Father Stephen DeYoung
That I would probably think that some of it is not correct.
Caller/Guest
Right.
Father Stephen DeYoung
Because I've learned things. I've changed my opinions on things. There are at least things that I probably word differently.
Caller/Guest
Sure, sure.
Father Stephen DeYoung
Or explain more or whatever that I would change.
Caller/Guest
Right.
Father Andrew Stephen Damick
The editing could just never stop. That's always the problem with being like.
Father Stephen DeYoung
Oh, wait, I can't believe I read. Especially after years. Right. Like, go back to it. You're like, oh, yeah, no, you know, that was cringe. Really be more like this. Yeah.
Caller/Guest
Right.
Father Stephen DeYoung
But this kind of upset him because he's like, well, wait, should I read it or not?
Caller/Guest
Right.
Father Stephen DeYoung
Like you're telling me it's.
Caller/Guest
Right.
Father Stephen DeYoung
And I had to say, like, at any time I talk to you, I'm doing my best.
Caller/Guest
Sure.
Right.
Father Stephen DeYoung
I'm giving you my best case. My best understanding in that moment.
Caller/Guest
Right.
Father Stephen DeYoung
But I hope that a few years from now, my understanding of these things will be better. Which means I'll think that my understanding today was to some degree, wrong.
Father Andrew Stephen Damick
Unbelievable.
Father Stephen DeYoung
But I am very aware of my own subjectivity and fallibility.
Caller/Guest
Right. And.
Father Stephen DeYoung
Yeah. And so I'm sorry if that bothers people.
Caller/Guest
Right.
Father Stephen DeYoung
Like, this parishioner wanted me to present it as if, like. No, I stand by every word of this. And I'm like, if I read it, I probably don't.
Caller/Guest
Right.
Father Stephen DeYoung
Like, you know, not every word.
Caller/Guest
No.
Father Andrew Stephen Damick
And that's okay. It's all right.
Father Stephen DeYoung
It's the world we live in, of human communications.
Caller/Guest
Right.
Father Andrew Stephen Damick
That's why most of what's on our bookshelves is Apocrypha.
Father Stephen DeYoung
Yes. Yes. Extra biblical literature is everything except the Bible.
Caller/Guest
Yes.
Father Andrew Stephen Damick
So. Yes. Good digression. Good digression.
Caller/Guest
Yeah.
Father Stephen DeYoung
Yeah. Well, no, it is important to disambiguate that, though, right? It really is.
Caller/Guest
Yes.
Right.
Yes.
Father Stephen DeYoung
That there is not. When St. Paul talks about the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.
Caller/Guest
Right.
Father Stephen DeYoung
Read his epistles. Show me where he talks about it as the Holy Spirit feeding us information.
Father Andrew Stephen Damick
Right.
Father Stephen DeYoung
About people, about the future, about their future, any of that. The comparison he's always making is to the presence of God in the temple in the tabernacle, and the Holy Spirit is the presence of God in us. That's the comparison he makes over and over again. And the presence of God in the tabernacle in the temple was not like whispering prophecies to the priests while they served.
Father Andrew Stephen Damick
It wasn't oracular.
Father Stephen DeYoung
That wasn't a thing.
Caller/Guest
Right.
Yeah.
Father Stephen DeYoung
So I know that a lot of groups in America today, they think that's what the Holy Spirit does, but frankly, that's not in the Bible, man. And especially if you're one of our Protestant friends, it being not in the Bible should be super important to you.
Father Andrew Stephen Damick
I mean, he's going to give you utterance, bro. It's just going to occur to you, he's going to like, you know, the words are just going to appear in your brain and, you know.
Caller/Guest
Yeah.
Father Andrew Stephen Damick
Or not.
Father Stephen DeYoung
Well, we won't go down that rabbit trail anymore. Another. We already have, I think, back in our prophecy, our episode on prophets and prophecy.
Father Andrew Stephen Damick
So what else are angels doing? So angels are kind of. They're hanging out in the world of thoughts. What else?
Father Stephen DeYoung
Well, they're not hanging out. They have jobs.
Caller/Guest
Okay.
Father Stephen DeYoung
You know what I mean? That is where they are. No angelic unemployment after the Ascension.
Father Andrew Stephen Damick
No loafers.
Father Stephen DeYoung
But so the kind of thoughts. What are the kind of thoughts?
Caller/Guest
Right.
Father Stephen DeYoung
Well, positive.
Caller/Guest
Right.
Father Stephen DeYoung
We don't just mean positive like Wholesome or think good thoughts. Pretty or nice.
Caller/Guest
Right.
Father Stephen DeYoung
That's not what we're talking about. We're talking about reminders and guidance. Right. They're guiding us to God. So reminders of sin and repentance.
Caller/Guest
Right.
Father Stephen DeYoung
Reminders of God's forgiveness of us and the forgiveness that's available to us when we repent. Reminders of God himself.
Caller/Guest
Right.
Father Stephen DeYoung
Reminders that the good things we have come from him.
Caller/Guest
Right.
Father Stephen DeYoung
Reminder. These are the kind of thoughts we're talking about.
Caller/Guest
Right.
Father Stephen DeYoung
That would be the ones that angels are throwing our way as opposed to the ones that demons are throwing our way.
Caller/Guest
Yeah, Right.
Father Stephen DeYoung
But we also want to, because we talked about how humans. Right. Bridge these two sort of layers of created reality. The sort of angelic or noetic or the world of thoughts and the physical and material world. Again, as we've said since literally the very beginning of the show, since the first episode, these are not two different realities.
Caller/Guest
Yeah.
Father Andrew Stephen Damick
These are not split natural, supernatural. That's not an orthodox Christian thing.
Father Stephen DeYoung
No. There's not some barrier between the two. You don't, like, astrally project to get into the other one. Sorry. Dr. Strange and Professor.
Father Andrew Stephen Damick
Sorry.
Father Stephen DeYoung
A lot of astral projection in Marvel Comics. I'm just realizing that.
Father Andrew Stephen Damick
I know, right, sorry.
Caller/Guest
Dr.
Father Andrew Stephen Damick
Strange.
Father Stephen DeYoung
Well, he is the sorcerer supreme, which I assume means he has all the toppings. But anyway, so these aren't two different realities, Right. This is one created world, one creation of God that has these different elements and aspects to it.
Caller/Guest
Right.
Father Stephen DeYoung
That we can distinguish between. And so angels aren't sort of restricted to this world of thoughts.
Caller/Guest
Right.
Father Stephen DeYoung
And we see this in scripture, obviously.
Caller/Guest
Right.
Father Stephen DeYoung
And they're associated with places and with things.
Caller/Guest
Right.
Father Stephen DeYoung
There are the angels who govern. Philo quote, which we won't read again. Right. The sun, moon and stars.
Caller/Guest
Right.
Father Stephen DeYoung
And different parts of material creation. The nations, as we mentioned.
Caller/Guest
Right.
Father Stephen DeYoung
And so there's not this barrier sort of between them, like. Oh, though they're just restricted to this thought world. They can't, like, sort of appear in the physical or material world. They can't act within the physical material world. They're not related in any way to it. No, they are. Right. That's.
Caller/Guest
Yeah.
Father Stephen DeYoung
But they don't live in both the way we do because they don't have material bodies like us.
Caller/Guest
Yeah, yeah, Right.
Father Stephen DeYoung
They live in one, but it's not separated from the other part. The other.
Father Andrew Stephen Damick
They function as spirits. As spirits. That's their main function is this sort of influencing, you know, thing.
Father Stephen DeYoung
They're influencers. That's what we're saying.
Father Andrew Stephen Damick
There we go. So make sure you like and subscribe. Click the little notification button, click the.
Father Stephen DeYoung
Bell, you know, every time a new thought appears.
Caller/Guest
Exactly.
Father Andrew Stephen Damick
All right. Well, that's the second half of this episode of Lord of Spirits talking about Angels. We'll be right back with the third and final half. See you soon.
Narrator
Father Andrew Stephen Damick and father Stephen DeYoung will be back in a moment to take your calls on the next part of the Lord of Spirits. Give them a call at 855-237-2346. That's 8555-AF-RADIO.
Announcer
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Narrator
Back now with the Lord of Spirits, the Father Andrew Stephen Damick and Father Stephen DeYoung. If you have a question, call now at 855-237-2346. That's 8-55-AF-RADIO.
Father Andrew Stephen Damick
And we're back. It's the third half of this episode of the Lord of Spirits podcast. Once again, we're pre recorded, so we're not taking any calls. We don't know what will happen if you call that number, but we're not taking any calls.
Caller/Guest
Exactly.
Father Andrew Stephen Damick
Most of you don't listen live anyway, so. Yeah, so, you know, it's the same experience as always. Anyway, we're talking about angels and we just finished up our second half where we were talking about the sort of the nitty gritty of angelic activity in the world. So what else is there? I mean, we, yeah, I mean, there's more to say about their ministry, but there's some, some interesting things about what angels have to do with humans. Exactly. I think that we could talk about here.
Father Stephen DeYoung
Yes. Yeah, yeah. So we talked about, in the first half we talked about sort of how God administers creation through angels. And then the second half we talked a little bit about how angels interact with us within the created world. And now this third half, not to show Our hand too much. But you might detect some madness to our method. We're going to talk about how angelic beings function in terms of our relationship upwards toward God.
Caller/Guest
Yeah.
Father Stephen DeYoung
And so one window we get into that is the reference that Christ makes to guardian angels.
Caller/Guest
Yeah.
Father Stephen DeYoung
When he talks about the little ones who we are not to offend because their angels are always before the throne of the Father in heaven.
Caller/Guest
Right.
Father Stephen DeYoung
They're angels.
Caller/Guest
Right.
Father Stephen DeYoung
So they have angels, hence the reference to guardian angels. But it's not just that, oh, they have a guardian angel and he's going to come smite you.
Caller/Guest
Right.
Father Stephen DeYoung
If you offend them. But that angel is always right, is standing before the throne of the Father in heaven. So what's it doing?
Caller/Guest
Yeah.
Father Stephen DeYoung
Isn't it supposed to be guarding them? Why is it hanging out?
Father Andrew Stephen Damick
Yeah. What are you doing there? The space doesn't work the same in the noetic realm as it does.
Father Stephen DeYoung
So if in the first half we were coming at it sort of top down, right. God toward creation, now we're sort of coming at it sort of bottom up.
Caller/Guest
Right.
Father Stephen DeYoung
And in that sense we see this angel clearly that Christ is talking about. These angels are functioning as sort of intermediaries, Right. They're interceding with, speaking to, praying to God, communicating to God about what is going on with their charges, these little ones on earth who are being abused in some way.
Caller/Guest
Right.
Father Stephen DeYoung
And Christ is saying, you should be aware of that before you mistreat.
Caller/Guest
Right.
Father Stephen DeYoung
One of these, that, Right. This is what you're doing is being reported to God. Now again, does that mean God wouldn't know otherwise?
Caller/Guest
Right.
Father Stephen DeYoung
Why doesn't Christ just say, hey, God sees what you do and he sees how you treat people.
Father Andrew Stephen Damick
He knows when you're sleeping, he knows when you're awake.
Father Stephen DeYoung
I mean, he does. That would be a true statement, right?
Caller/Guest
Yes. Right.
Father Stephen DeYoung
We're not saying God doesn't.
Caller/Guest
Right.
Father Stephen DeYoung
Like that would be a true statement.
Caller/Guest
Right.
Father Stephen DeYoung
But this points to a reality that again, right, out of love, God has given these angelic beings this intermediary role.
Caller/Guest
Right.
Father Stephen DeYoung
That they are participants in and share in this relationship of love between God and this human person he's created.
Caller/Guest
Right.
Father Stephen DeYoung
So hard to imagine being my guardian angel would be any kind of privilege as opposed to being someone else's. Maybe not, but in this sense it is.
Caller/Guest
Right?
Father Stephen DeYoung
In this sense it is this, by the way, right. When we talk about, and we mentioned this, we mentioned this in terms of the quote we've mentioned several times from St. Andrew of Crete, but the idea of the devil falling through envy.
Caller/Guest
Right.
Father Stephen DeYoung
This, of course, is understood to be talking about envy of the sort of special relationship between God and humanity.
Caller/Guest
That.
Father Stephen DeYoung
Isn'T shared in the same sense by God and angels. See, Hebrews, right? Because of the incarnation. About which of the angels did God ever say?
Caller/Guest
Right.
Yeah.
Father Stephen DeYoung
And he responded to that with envy, right?
Caller/Guest
Yeah.
Father Stephen DeYoung
But the correct response, right? And what we see with the angels who didn't fall out of envy or anything else, right. Is that they were given a role within that relationship. That relationship between humans and God is shared with the angelic beings. They are participants in that.
Caller/Guest
Right.
Father Stephen DeYoung
And we see them participating in that. The angels and the stars. Well, yeah, same thing. But who are. Who are singing in Luke 2.
Caller/Guest
When.
Father Stephen DeYoung
Christ is born.
Caller/Guest
Right.
Father Stephen DeYoung
It's not that they're this third thing who are cut out of, you know, like God, you know, they were the first draft and then humans. And God likes humans better.
Caller/Guest
Right?
Father Stephen DeYoung
Like someone's family, I don't know whose I could be talking about where, you know, the mom just loves the second child more.
Caller/Guest
Right.
Father Stephen DeYoung
I mean, it just. It's a thing, you know, that happens sometimes. Right. But that's not what we're talking about with God.
Caller/Guest
Yes.
Right, right.
Father Stephen DeYoung
God loves angels, just the angels he created just as much as the humans he created.
Caller/Guest
Right.
Father Stephen DeYoung
That's not. It's not like. But again, different roles, different purposes, right? But angels are part of that community. They're not cut out from it. They're not separated from it unless they separate themselves from it.
Caller/Guest
Right?
Father Stephen DeYoung
So the devil falls through envy, meaning the devil wasn't happy with that role that he was given by God. And this is the story of rebellion sort of all through the scriptures.
Caller/Guest
Right?
Father Stephen DeYoung
And the story of sin as rebellion as a whole is God gives us a role to play. He makes us who we are and places us where he places us in history, in time, in space, and the family we're born into, Right. Gives us gifts, different gifts, right. Different places, different times, different. Right. All these things are different. And all these things are kind of given to us without our say so. And the core of sinful rebellion is being unhappy with that and wanting something else, wanting to be someone or something. We're not wanting to have some gift from God that He hasn't given us, not wanting the ones he has given us, not wanting to be where he has put us, wanting to be somewhere else. That's the core of rebellion.
Caller/Guest
Right?
Father Stephen DeYoung
But so angels are a part of that. And having this intermediary function is how they're part of that Love and part of that relationship.
Caller/Guest
Yeah.
Father Stephen DeYoung
So again, they're not necessary in there. Yes. God knows he doesn't need an angel to tell him.
Caller/Guest
Right.
Father Stephen DeYoung
To report to him.
Caller/Guest
Right.
Yep.
Father Stephen DeYoung
Nonetheless, read your Bible, read Job.
Caller/Guest
Okay.
Father Stephen DeYoung
It's very clear. Angels come and report things going on on earth to go all the way to. All the way to revelation.
Caller/Guest
Right.
Father Stephen DeYoung
That'S there. We see angels bringing the prayers of the saints to God in Revelation post ascension.
Caller/Guest
Yeah, yeah, yeah, right.
Father Stephen DeYoung
Do they need to. Does God not know about the prayers of the saints unless they get brought to him in a bowl by an angel? Of course he does.
Caller/Guest
Yeah.
Father Stephen DeYoung
But the angels are given this role and it's very clear, I mean abundantly clear in Second Temple Jewish literature that angels have this intercessory role. And in Second Temple literature, I'm including the Book of Revelation. These purposes, though it is canonical, it is also technically part of Second Temple literature. I mean, maybe technically not, because the temple was destroyed 25 years before it was written. Sorry, preterists, but you know what I mean. Now, within pre Christian Judaism and ongoing in Christianity, it's important that this idea that there are these intermediaries involved with prayer, with intercession. Right. With speaking to God on behalf of people in the world and what's going on in the world. This is in addition to. Not in place of the other.
Caller/Guest
Right.
Father Stephen DeYoung
So it's not that the angels prayed for people so they didn't have to.
Caller/Guest
Yeah, yeah.
Father Andrew Stephen Damick
Or like they don't get in the way. That's a frequent criticism from some Protestants is like angels, you know, get, get. If you talk to an angel, it gets in the way between you and God as though there is. That's even a possibility.
Caller/Guest
Right.
Father Stephen DeYoung
And this is. And the problem with asking the question.
Caller/Guest
Right, well, wait, Right.
Father Stephen DeYoung
So I pray. God hears my prayer. God knows I pray.
Caller/Guest
Right.
Father Stephen DeYoung
Why does some angel or some glorified saint have to come and offer my prayer to God or double down on it or pray with me again? There's no have to. There's no have to. And if you're going to ask that question, you might as well ask, well, why pray at all? God already knows what I'm thinking and feeling. Why do I have to vocalize it? And why should I confess my sins to God or anybody else? God knows what I did. He knows about sins I didn't notice and forgot about or don't realize. God already knows, so why bother?
Father Andrew Stephen Damick
Yeah, I mean, the same argument can be used against prayer entirely. Like why pray at all between you.
Father Stephen DeYoung
And God, why pray at all? Why confess sin at all?
Father Andrew Stephen Damick
Right, yeah.
Father Stephen DeYoung
Even confessing it directly to God, why? He already knows.
Caller/Guest
Yeah.
Right.
Yep.
Father Stephen DeYoung
Doesn't make a whole lot of sense.
Caller/Guest
Right.
Father Stephen DeYoung
But this idea, you know, I was having a discussion with, with an Orthodox Jewish person and they were trying to minimize. Because really, honestly, even in post Christian Jewish tradition, there's intercession of angels and saints, but he was trying to sort of minimize that part of the tradition and said to me, give me one example. He said, can you give me one example of Second Temple literature of saints and angels interceding for people? And I said, man, I can't think of a single Second Temple Jewish interpreter, or even later Jewish interpreter for that matter, who understands Rachel weeping for her children when Israel went into exile or when Judah went into exile as anything other than Rachel weeping for her children.
Caller/Guest
Yes.
Father Andrew Stephen Damick
Not some weird.
Father Stephen DeYoung
Who didn't take it literally. They all took that literally, that the spirit of Rachel, the Old Testament saint, was weeping, seeing her right before God, crying out to God over what was happening.
Caller/Guest
Right.
Father Stephen DeYoung
And then St. Matthew, of course, applies that to the slaughter of the innocents. And I would therefore see no reason why Anyone would understand St. Matthew to be interpreting that any less literally.
Caller/Guest
Than.
Father Stephen DeYoung
All the other Jewish interpreters living at the time. He did.
Father Andrew Stephen Damick
Yeah.
Caller/Guest
Right.
Father Stephen DeYoung
So, yeah, this is just a thing.
Caller/Guest
Right.
Father Stephen DeYoung
Not because it's quote unquote necessary. But now when we talk about this, when we talk about angels are glorified saints interceding, the most common thing, the most common thing that people who oppose that idea or practice or just get the heebie jeebies from it.
Caller/Guest
Right.
Father Stephen DeYoung
The most common verse that you hear in response is first Timothy 2, verse 5. And we're now going to tell you why you need to stop that.
Caller/Guest
Yeah.
Okay.
Father Stephen DeYoung
1 Timothy 2, 5, which is depending on your translation, roughly, for there is one mediator between God and man, the man Christ Jesus.
Caller/Guest
Yes.
Father Andrew Stephen Damick
It gets thrown out of.
Father Stephen DeYoung
See, there's one mediator, nobody else. You don't need any of these people praying for you.
Caller/Guest
There's.
Father Stephen DeYoung
That's never applied, by the way, to asking people in your church to pray for you.
Father Andrew Stephen Damick
Hey, there's one meter between God and man, you guys.
Father Stephen DeYoung
Yeah, why are you asking me to pray for you? Why don't you pray directly to God?
Caller/Guest
Right.
Father Stephen DeYoung
You never hear that. But yeah, that's the verse you hear. Okay, so there should be a tip off to you because that word for in the translation at the beginning basically means. Because. So if you have a sentence here that begins with because it's not even really a sentence. It's a clause within a sentence. It's part of a sentence.
Caller/Guest
Right.
Father Stephen DeYoung
So there's something, something, something, right. In First Timothy 2, 1, 4, something, something, something. Because there is one meteor between God and man, the man Christ Jesus. And the way it's quoted, you would think that the something, something, something in the first four verses is you don't need anyone to intercede for you.
Caller/Guest
Right.
Father Stephen DeYoung
But lo and behold, when you go to 1 Timothy 2, verse 1, context, 1st Timothy 2, verse 1, to see the beginning of the sentence, the beginning of the sentences, St. Paul saying, I desire that intercessions be made for all men.
Father Andrew Stephen Damick
Wait, that can't be right.
Father Stephen DeYoung
Yes. And he enumerates your kings, rulers, princes. You should pray for everyone. Pray for everyone. Intercede for everyone before God. Because there is one mediator between God and man, the man Christ Jesus. So folks who quote that against the idea of intercession are abusing Scripture. You are abusing St. Paul. You are quoting St. Paul out of context. You are quoting the Bible, the scriptures out of context to say the exact opposite of what they are saying. That's why you need to stop it.
Caller/Guest
Yeah.
Father Andrew Stephen Damick
It's because there's one mediator that you should do this. Interesting.
Caller/Guest
Yes.
Because.
Father Stephen DeYoung
So you are literally trying to make the opposite point by quoting the Bible out of context.
Caller/Guest
Yeah.
Father Andrew Stephen Damick
Obviously the mediation that Jesus is doing is not.
Father Stephen DeYoung
Is a different kind of mediation than intercessory prayer.
Father Andrew Stephen Damick
Because mediation, the word mediation, it just means being in the middle between, you know, but it shouldn't be taken in an utterly literal way, right?
Father Stephen DeYoung
Well, I think it is in a literal. Literal might not be the right word there.
Caller/Guest
Yeah, yeah.
Father Andrew Stephen Damick
But like, you know, like, you shouldn't take the. You shouldn't take the image and push it to every possibility. So, like, if I, If I pray for you, I'm being a mediator, but that doesn't. And in that sense, I'm between you and God. But not in the sense of like, don't get me between me and Me and God. You know, like, I'm not cutting off access, just Jesus is not cutting off.
Father Stephen DeYoung
It's in addition, not in place of. Yeah, yeah, yeah, like just. Yes, just like Christ. Does it cut off your access to the Father?
Father Andrew Stephen Damick
Right.
Father Stephen DeYoung
Quite the opposite. But. So no, what St. Paul is talking about there with a mediation and then how that because works in this sentence.
Caller/Guest
Okay.
Father Stephen DeYoung
Any of those people who want to quote it the other way, explain to me how the because works in that sentence.
Caller/Guest
Okay.
Father Stephen DeYoung
Because I Can explain how that because works in that sentence, in that St. Paul's talking about the Incarnation. Christ mediates between God and man in his person.
Father Andrew Stephen Damick
Yeah, he's both.
Caller/Guest
Right.
Father Stephen DeYoung
And that's why it says there's one meteor between God and man, the man Christ Jesus. And so St. Paul has received this tradition of angelic intercession. He's a Jewish person in the first century A.D. they believe in this.
Caller/Guest
Okay.
Father Stephen DeYoung
And he's saying because of who Christ is, because of the incarnation and the ascension. Now, human prayers and human intercessions.
Caller/Guest
Are.
Father Stephen DeYoung
As powerful, if not more powerful, than angelic intercessions. That's the argument here. That's the. Because. Because of the Incarnation and the ascension and humanity being seated at the right hand of God. That's why St. Paul wants humans to pray and intercede for the whole world, for everyone in it, for all kinds of people. And the incarnation lies behind. As we were saying earlier. Call in Barderman. Incarnation lies behind. So much of St. Paul's theology. Just referring to Christians now as holy ones. Remember holy ones. That gets translated, saints in the New Testament and often not in the Old Testament. Holy ones is what's used to refer to angels in the Old Testament.
Caller/Guest
Yeah.
Father Stephen DeYoung
And he refers to humans in the church by that title.
Caller/Guest
Right.
Father Stephen DeYoung
So this is a connection between humans and angels that's being made and here that's being applied to intercessions. And the reason there's a parallel there between humans and angels is because of the incarnation of Christ through which humanity has been exalted even above angels, such that as St. Paul also said and we talked about earlier, we're going to judge them one day.
Caller/Guest
Right.
Father Stephen DeYoung
So again, this intercession is not only is it not in place of right, it's in addition to, right, I ask someone to pray for me while I also pray.
Caller/Guest
Right.
Father Stephen DeYoung
And the someone I ask to pray for me can be anyone who's alive, which includes the saints, right?
Caller/Guest
Yes.
Father Stephen DeYoung
And angels. That's. Is it necessary? Okay, we're not saying necessary. Here's that efficiency thing. Rearing its ugly head again. I've used that. Rearing its ugly head. Rearing its hoary head again. Gotta vary it up a little.
Caller/Guest
Right?
Father Stephen DeYoung
That, that. And no one is saying that. Right. We all understand this. We all understand that. Like, you don't convince God by reaching a certain number of people praying for something.
Caller/Guest
Yes, yes.
Right.
Father Stephen DeYoung
Like, we had one too few Facebook likes. So the kid died.
Caller/Guest
Right.
Father Stephen DeYoung
We know that doesn't happen.
Caller/Guest
Right.
Father Stephen DeYoung
God's not like counting. Okay, well, we've got 87 people praying for this now. If it hits 100, I guess I'll do it.
Caller/Guest
Right.
Father Stephen DeYoung
Like, that's not how this works.
Caller/Guest
Right.
Father Stephen DeYoung
None of us thinks that you're going to, like, convince God by getting someone important or influential or a particular saint to pray for you.
Caller/Guest
Okay.
Father Stephen DeYoung
Like, well, if I could just get, you know, the Patriarch of Constantinople to pray for this for me or celebrity pastor or whomever.
Caller/Guest
Right.
Father Stephen DeYoung
I think has God's favor this week or St. Oxentius to. If I could just get them to pray for this, then God will do it.
Caller/Guest
Right?
Father Stephen DeYoung
We don't think that.
Caller/Guest
Right.
Father Stephen DeYoung
None of us think that.
Caller/Guest
Right.
Father Stephen DeYoung
Hopefully it's an expression of love for one another. It's an expression of love. It's a communion with each other.
Caller/Guest
Right.
Father Stephen DeYoung
My parishes pray for each other.
Caller/Guest
Right.
Father Stephen DeYoung
Not because they think that, oh, well, you know, if they just pray themselves, God won't do it, but if we all pray, then God will. We don't think that.
Caller/Guest
Right.
Father Stephen DeYoung
But that coming together and praying for each other and praying for the same things together is an expression of our love for each other.
Caller/Guest
Yeah.
Father Stephen DeYoung
In fact, praying for someone really, sincerely praying for someone with some effort is one of the highest forms of love for that person. There's been this demeaning lately of, you know, thoughts and prayers and demean thoughts all you want.
Caller/Guest
Like, sure.
Father Stephen DeYoung
You know, you were always on my mind, you know, nice Willie Nelson song, but who cares, Right. Just, you know, thinking it makes you cry at the, you know, animal shelter commercial. But anyway.
Caller/Guest
Right.
Father Stephen DeYoung
So. So no, prayers do have values for the highest forms of love. But it is also true, some of the pushback against that thoughts and prayers thing does have a correct point in that that doesn't replace other forms of love.
Caller/Guest
Right.
Father Stephen DeYoung
Oh, this person needs help.
Caller/Guest
Right.
Father Stephen DeYoung
This person needs a ride to the emergency room. I'm going to pray for him. I'm going to pray for him real hard tonight. That someone helps them.
Caller/Guest
Right.
Father Stephen DeYoung
No, obviously.
Caller/Guest
Right.
Father Stephen DeYoung
You also help the person.
Caller/Guest
Right.
Father Stephen DeYoung
Again, there's no reason to separate those two things.
Caller/Guest
Right.
Father Stephen DeYoung
Oh, I don't just pray about things. I actually go and do them and help people and make them happen. Or on the other side. Well, I pray for people. That's the most important. No, you do both. Por que de los dos? But actual intercessory prayer for someone is a beautiful expression of your love for them and will change how you view them and will change your relationship with them.
Caller/Guest
Yeah, yeah.
Father Stephen DeYoung
Won't necessarily get God to do what you want.
Father Andrew Stephen Damick
Yeah.
Father Stephen DeYoung
I mean, that's not what prayer is anyway.
Caller/Guest
Right.
Father Andrew Stephen Damick
I mean, one of the things I tell people a lot is especially if they're having a relationship problem with somebody, which, I mean, that's a lot of what confession is about. Right. Is, you know, are you earnestly, consistently praying for that person? Because if you're not, then you're like cutting your legs out from underneath yourself, you know, it's not gonna get better. Probably.
Caller/Guest
Yep.
Father Stephen DeYoung
So in summary of the last two episodes, what has all this been about? Where has all this been going? Kind of nowhere, but I'm gonna try and put a bow on it anyway.
Father Andrew Stephen Damick
What's all this?
Father Stephen DeYoung
What's all this then? And that's if we take all these things we've been talking about in the last two episodes and think about what does it mean for angels and demons to fight.
Caller/Guest
Yeah.
Father Andrew Stephen Damick
We actually got a question in the Facebook group. I think it just came in through this morning, actually. Someone was saying that they had heard this idea that when natural disasters happen, you know, that earthquakes or big storms or hurricanes, whatever, that that's war in the heavenly realms, you know, Titan.
Father Stephen DeYoung
I thought thunder was angels bowling, but.
Father Andrew Stephen Damick
We should have an episode titled Angels Bowling. That's an idea.
Father Stephen DeYoung
There we go. So, yeah, so sorry. Frank Peretti fans, he had the sort of Highlander version of. Of angel demon fights, right? Lots of big, heavy sword swinging and trying to decapitate each other. Because there could be only one. Which is cool. I mean, cool.
Caller/Guest
Yeah.
Father Andrew Stephen Damick
You know, but who wants to live forever?
Father Stephen DeYoung
Fun read. But, yeah. And Harry, your Cavill, you can't do everything, man. But again, not what we're not. What we're talking about, right? What we're talking about, honestly, right, Is what we've been talking about with the world of thoughts, right? The battle is really the battle for the mind. The battle is about what thoughts am I going to nurture and turn into ideas and what kind of ideas am I going to come up with and how am I going to try and implement them and use them in the world? And what am I going to bring about? What direction am I going to go, Right? Because the whole game for the demonic, whether we're talking about the devil himself or demons or whatever kind of demons or whatever that we talked about last episode, the whole end game for them is to destroy as much of humanity as they possibly can.
Caller/Guest
Right?
Father Stephen DeYoung
Because as we talked about early on when we were talking about the fall of Satan in our very early episodes, right, the fall of the devil, this whole Miltonian thing of, oh, he's going to overthrow God and make himself God. And I'm like, oh, okay, what's step one to do that?
Caller/Guest
Yeah.
Father Stephen DeYoung
You can't do. That's not a thing.
Father Andrew Stephen Damick
This is not paganism.
Father Stephen DeYoung
There's not a way to do that.
Caller/Guest
Right.
Father Stephen DeYoung
It's not like God has God powers that you can seize with a cosmic siphon or something. That's Galactus and Dr. Doom.
Caller/Guest
Right.
Father Stephen DeYoung
Totally different thing.
Caller/Guest
Right.
Father Stephen DeYoung
That's not how any of this works.
Caller/Guest
Right.
Father Stephen DeYoung
You can't do that. The devil can't do that.
Caller/Guest
Right.
Father Stephen DeYoung
The devil fell out of envy, envy of humanity. He can try and destroy humanity. He can try to destroy humans who God loves. That's his shot.
Caller/Guest
Right.
Father Stephen DeYoung
And a great part of the story of scripture is that the lengths that God goes to to redeem and save humanity from that fate. So the battlefield between angels and demons is your mind, your heart, your thoughts. That's where spiritual warfare is happening. It's in terms of sin. It's in terms of your enslavement or your freedom regarding sin. It's in terms of how much you will yield to the demons or how much you will align your will and your work in the world with God.
Caller/Guest
Right.
Father Stephen DeYoung
All of these things we've been talking about, this is what spiritual warfare is. This is where angels and demons are fighting. This is where you have to pick which side you're going to follow.
Caller/Guest
Right. And.
Father Stephen DeYoung
The stakes are whether you live eternally or you perish. That's honestly it. And so in that regard, talking about demons in the last episode and angels in this episode, it's like Deuteronomy, right? Here is life and death, blessings and curses. Each of us has a choice to make, not just once, but over and over again through our lives as to which. Which one of those directions we're going to go and which of those we're going to receive. And those are pretty much my final thoughts. Oh, see what I did there?
Father Andrew Stephen Damick
That's great. I will add just a little bit. Yeah. I think, you know, in. In one of the things that's. That's said a lot these days and I think is true, I mean, based on my. My personal experiences with people, is that there is a growing sense of isolation and loneliness. And I'm not going to draw a straight dotted line from that back to this kind of flattening of the spiritual world that happens with the Reformation, where all the angels and saints are kind of pushed off to the side and it's just God up there and then us directly underneath him. But I do think that that theological outlook isn't helping and maybe is the context for some of this sense of isolation. You know, we've said since 2020 on this show that it's a crowded spiritual world. It's crowded out there. There's this whole, well, as scripture says, great cloud of witnesses, right? The angels, the saints who are present with us all the time. This is why someone like St. Anthony the Great or the other hermits and anchorites and ascetics, they go off to be alone. And indeed, you know the Greek word for them, Mona Chos, you know, monk, it refers to being alone, but they actually have a very strong sense of not being alone. So they're alone as far as the world is concerned, but they're not really alone because they are engaging with the spiritual world, the noetic world, to use the technical term. And so I, I believe very much that one of the things that can help us in this time of isolation and loneliness is to renew our sense, or maybe for many of us, begin having a sense of this, this crowded spiritual world, to engage with the angels and the saints by asking for their prayers, by asking for their help. And again, it's not instead of God, it's. It's in addition to your prayers to God. As Orthodox Christians, if you were to, like, add up all of the prayers that we say in terms of, like our private prayer, our liturgical prayers, or whatever the vast majority of them are, are directed, you know, directly towards God himself, Father, Son and Holy Spirit. And then we also have our prayers to the saints, to the angels, right? Just like for most Christians, the vast majority of your prayer is to God directly. And you also ask for your friends to pray for you when you ask for something, by the way, that is literally what prayer is. I mean, that's just what the English word prayer means in its most basic sense. And so it's for our spiritual health and in many cases, for our mental health, connecting with this larger community, the community in Christ that is both the seen and the unseen at the same time. I think it's just absolutely so, so vital for us. So that wraps up this episode of the Lord of Spirits podcast. Thank you very much for listening. Listening, everybody. This was not a live episode. We didn't. We pre recorded it, so we didn't take any calls. But we'd like to hear from you. You can email us at LordOfSpirits Ancient Faith.com you can message us at our Facebook page. You can leave us a voicemail@speakpipe.com LordOfSpirits and if you have basic questions about Orthodox Christianity or you need help in finding a parish, because that's critical, head over to orthodoxintro.org and join us for.
Father Stephen DeYoung
Our live broadcast on the second and fourth Thursdays of the month at 7pm Eastern, 4pm Pacific. It's fine. It's cool. You can say that we're nothing, but you know the truth.
Father Andrew Stephen Damick
If you're on Facebook, you can follow our page, you can join our discussion group Super Active. Leave reviews and ratings everywhere and share this show with a friend or family member.
Father Stephen DeYoung
And finally, be sure to go to ancientfaith.com stroke support and help make sure we and lots of other ancient AFR podcasters stay on the air. I guess I'm the fool with her arms out like an angel through the car sunroof.
Father Andrew Stephen Damick
Thank you, good night and God bless you all.
Narrator
You've been listening to the Lord of Spirits with Orthodox Christian priests, Father Andrew Stephen Damick and Father Stephen DeYoung, a listener supported presentation of Ancient Faith Radio. And I beheld and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders, and the number of them was 10,000 times 10,000 and thousands of thousands, saying with a loud voice, worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power and riches and wisdom and strength and honor and glory and Blessing. Revelation, chapter 5, verses 11 through 12.
This episode explores the invisible but ever-present world of angels within Orthodox Christian tradition, focusing on their roles, hierarchy, and interaction with humanity. The conversation offers a counter-narrative to flat, secular materialism by highlighting how the celestial and human communities are intertwined through love, agency, and participation in God’s plan. The hosts also address frequent misunderstandings about angelic activity, mediation, and prayer, arguing that “efficiency” is not a category that pertains to God's ways.
[04:35–09:00]
[14:44–16:34]
[23:06–24:01]
[25:02–25:30]
[31:03–34:54]
[53:29–55:09]
[56:13–60:46]
[64:05–65:30]
[66:03–75:32]
[84:18–94:51; 97:07–106:08]
[108:26–113:44]
| Topic | Timestamp | |--------------------------------------------------------|----------------| | Angelic hierarchy and uniqueness | 04:35–09:00 | | Archangels in tradition | 10:08–12:36 | | Angelic function post-Christ | 14:44–16:34 | | Human saints as “angelic” mediators | 23:06–24:01 | | The “noetic world” and agency of spirits | 25:02–27:20 | | The purpose of mediation: Love not efficiency | 31:03–34:54 | | Guardian angels, their agency, and free will | 53:29–55:09 | | The fall of angels: Linked to human rebellion | 56:13–60:46 | | Angels in the realm of thought: positive influences | 64:05–65:30 | | Attribution errors: Angelic vs. Holy Spirit impulses | 66:03–75:32 | | Angels’ intercessory role; 1 Tim 2:5 explained | 97:07–101:22 | | Angels, prayer, and the battle for the mind | 108:26–113:44 | | Concluding remarks on isolation and spiritual world | 113:44–117:31 |
For questions and further engagement:
“Blessed are you, for you are never alone and the cloud of witnesses surrounds you.”