Your Skin Makes Me Cry

Summary

The Lord of Spirits Podcast

Episode: “Your Skin Makes Me Cry”

Date: February 28, 2025

Hosts: Fr. Andrew Stephen Damick & Fr. Stephen De Young

Theme: The Seen and Unseen World in Orthodox Christian Tradition

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Episode Overview

This episode explores the invisible but ever-present world of angels within Orthodox Christian tradition, focusing on their roles, hierarchy, and interaction with humanity. The conversation offers a counter-narrative to flat, secular materialism by highlighting how the celestial and human communities are intertwined through love, agency, and participation in God’s plan. The hosts also address frequent misunderstandings about angelic activity, mediation, and prayer, arguing that “efficiency” is not a category that pertains to God's ways.

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Key Concepts and Discussion Points

1. Angelic Hierarchy: Ranks, Roles, and Uniqueness

[04:35–09:00]

• St. Dionysius’ Nine Ranks: Seraphim, Cherubim, Thrones, Dominions, Virtues, Powers, Principalities, Archangels, Angels.
• Not Species, But Offices: Unlike created species, angels are unique beings. Each angel’s “rank” refers to its assigned task or proximity to God, not progression or promotion.
  • “Angels don’t have species... Every angel is sui generis, meaning it’s unique.” – Fr. Stephen [06:54]
• Hierarchy Mirrors the Church: The structure parallels ecclesiastical hierarchy—not a value judgment of holiness, but a difference in role.
  • “A bishop is not a different species than a layperson… they just have a different role.” – Fr. Stephen [09:04–09:17]
• Archangel Ambiguity: “Archangel” can mean both a particular rank and a title for any “chief” angel; there’s not only “The Seven.”

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2. The Ongoing Work of Angels Post-Christ

[14:44–16:34]

• Misconception: Some believe angels were “laid off” post-Incarnation and now God handles everything directly.
• Orthodox View: Angels still serve as intermediaries; but through Christ’s ascension, humanity is glorified “above” the angels.
  • “Now there’s either a new rank one or ten... that is glorified humanity.” – Fr. Stephen [16:16]
• Example: The Theotokos is cited as the exemplar of glorified humanity, not replacing but expanding the hierarchy.

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3. Human Saints and Angelic Functions

[23:06–24:01]

• Saintly Roles: Saints in glory perform activities previously ascribed to angels—delivering messages, protection, hearing prayers.
  • “All the stuff that you see angels doing in the Old Testament, human saints are doing under the new covenant.” – Fr. Andrew [23:34]
• Scriptural Support: Luke 20:36 refers to the “sons of the Resurrection” as “equal to angels.”
• Honor vs. Slander: Venerating saints is the opposite of the New Testament’s warning against “slandering angels.” [24:11]

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4. Angels and the Nature of “Spirits”

[25:02–25:30]

• Noetic Realm: Angels and saints function in the “noetic” or spiritual world—higher consciousness that motivates humans collectively.
• Good Influence: While demons seek destruction, angels and saints work to guide people toward God.

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5. Love Over Efficiency: The Divine Gifting of Agency

[31:03–34:54]

• God's Methods: God doesn’t “need” intermediaries but chooses to include angels and saints out of love, not efficiency.
  • “Efficiency... is completely irrelevant to an omnipotent being... If you're God, it doesn’t matter.” – Fr. Andrew [32:21]
  • “He can do anything he likes. He can work directly... But he’s given me that privilege out of love.” – Fr. Stephen [33:45]
• Sharing as Divine Mode: God shares His love by letting angels and saints participate in His work, which enriches both the giver and receiver.

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6. Agency, Free Will, and Guardian Angels

[53:29–55:09]

• Free Will in Angels: Angels have agency; their alignment with God is voluntary not coerced. This is critical for understanding the concept of obedience.
  • “The fact that you voluntarily align your will and your activity with God’s... does not mean you don’t have free will.” – Fr. Stephen [54:17]
• Guardian Angels: Tradition, liturgy, and prayers support the idea of angels assigned to individuals—especially at baptism—but the specifics are not “boxed in.”
  • “It doesn’t all have to be prose. Poetry is okay.” – Fr. Stephen [51:07]

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7. The Fall and Repentance of Angels: Entwined with Humanity

[56:13–60:46]

• Mutual Alignment: Angelic “falls” coincide with human rebellion—angels align with humans in rejecting God, not in isolation.
  • “Every time that happens, there is some angelic being and some human being... who align their wills with each other over against... God’s will.” – Fr. Stephen [57:56]
• Repentant Demons?: Even rare patristic stories about demons “repenting” involve their interaction with “particularly holy” humans, reflecting humanity’s unique mediatorial role.

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8. Thoughts, Influences & The Noetic Struggle

[64:05–65:30]

• Spiritual Warfare: Angels send “positive, godly thoughts”; demons send those that destroy. We cooperate by nurturing good thoughts into ideas and actions.
  • “This is part of what we’re talking about... replacing the negative with the positive.” – Fr. Stephen [65:30]
• Guided Discernment: “Is this thought going to help my salvation or harm it?” – Fr. Andrew [65:40]

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9. Misattributing Angelic Action to the Holy Spirit

[66:03–75:32]

• Common Protestant Error: Attributing every insight or feeling to the “direct” action of the Holy Spirit rather than recognizing angelic mediation.
  • “The Holy Spirit gave me this… Often it's the Holy Spirit told me to tell you.” – Fr. Andrew [66:39]
  • “That wasn’t the Holy Spirit, bro.” – Fr. Stephen [67:07]
• Healthy Humility: Spiritual impressions should be offered with humility (“it seems to me...”) instead of dogmatic “God told me” assertions.

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10. Angels as Intermediaries in Prayer; Mediation and Intercession

[84:18–94:51; 97:07–106:08]

• Guardian Angels Intercede: Drawing from Christ’s words (Mt. 18:10), guardian angels present our needs to God, not because God needs information, but as a participation in love.
  • “That angel is always before the throne of the Father in heaven... acting as an intermediary, sharing in this relationship of love.” – Fr. Stephen [85:49–86:50]
• Mediation Not “In Place Of”: The oft-cited verse (1 Tim. 2:5) about “one mediator” is read contextually to support, not contradict, the practice of intercession:
  • “I desire that intercessions be made for all men... because there is one mediator between God and man, the man Christ Jesus.” – Fr. Stephen [99:08]
  • “The mediation Jesus does is a different mediation than intercessory prayer. It’s in addition, not in place of.” – Fr. Stephen [100:47]
• Intercessory prayer as love: Praying for others and asking for their prayers is a communion of love, not a negotiation of spiritual efficiency.

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11. The Battleground: Spiritual Warfare and the Human Mind

[108:26–113:44]

• Not Physical Combat: “Spiritual warfare” between angels and demons is not literal sword-fighting but a struggle over human hearts, minds, and will—what thoughts we nurture, what actions we take.
• The Devil’s Goal: Demonic forces seek to destroy humanity; God works to save and redeem.
  • “The battlefield between angels and demons is your mind, your heart, your thoughts.” – Fr. Stephen [112:49]
• The Choice is Ongoing: We continually choose whom to follow: “Deuteronomy... here is life and death, blessings and curses. Each of us has a choice to make...”

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• On hierarchy: “A bishop is not a different species than a layperson... they just have a different role...” – Fr. Stephen [09:04]
• On love vs. efficiency: “Efficiency... is completely irrelevant to an omnipotent being.” – Fr. Andrew [32:21]
• On prayer as love: “Praying for someone, really with some effort, is one of the highest forms of love for that person.” – Fr. Stephen [106:08]
• On misguided “God told me” rhetoric: “That wasn’t the Holy Spirit, bro.” – Fr. Stephen [67:07]
• On the isolation of modern believers: “It’s a crowded spiritual world... There’s this whole, as Scripture says, ‘great cloud of witnesses’ present with us all the time.” – Fr. Andrew [113:44]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

| Topic | Timestamp | |--------------------------------------------------------|----------------| | Angelic hierarchy and uniqueness | 04:35–09:00 | | Archangels in tradition | 10:08–12:36 | | Angelic function post-Christ | 14:44–16:34 | | Human saints as “angelic” mediators | 23:06–24:01 | | The “noetic world” and agency of spirits | 25:02–27:20 | | The purpose of mediation: Love not efficiency | 31:03–34:54 | | Guardian angels, their agency, and free will | 53:29–55:09 | | The fall of angels: Linked to human rebellion | 56:13–60:46 | | Angels in the realm of thought: positive influences | 64:05–65:30 | | Attribution errors: Angelic vs. Holy Spirit impulses | 66:03–75:32 | | Angels’ intercessory role; 1 Tim 2:5 explained | 97:07–101:22 | | Angels, prayer, and the battle for the mind | 108:26–113:44 | | Concluding remarks on isolation and spiritual world | 113:44–117:31 |

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Memorable Touches

• Humor throughout: (“Angels are influencers… click the bell…" [80:37], “No angelic unemployment after the Ascension.” [77:05])
• Pop culture references: Journey, Chocolate Rain, The Sound of Music, Marvel Comics, Highlander, and more, all for levity and illustration.

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Takeaways

• Angels are real, active, and individual beings serving specific roles, not unlike human community members with unique responsibilities.
• Humans in Christ are elevated to a unique place “even above the angels,” sharing in the “business” of guiding, interceding, and caring for others within God’s love.
• Intercessory prayer—of both angels and saints—is not about spiritual “efficiency,” nor does it place intermediaries “in the way”; it is a loving communion, made possible and meaningful through Christ’s mediation.
• Spiritual warfare is not a mythic battle in the clouds but a real contest waged in the realm of human thought, intention, and action.
• Christians are never truly alone; the spiritual world is “crowded,” and engagement with angels and saints is a vital antidote to isolation and loneliness.

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For questions and further engagement:

• Email [e-mail] or leave a voicemail at speakpipe.com/LordOfSpirits

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“Blessed are you, for you are never alone and the cloud of witnesses surrounds you.”

Transcript

[Narrator]

He will be a staff for the righteous with which for them to stand and not to fall. And he will be the light of the nations and the hope of those whose hearts are troubled. All who dwell on the earth will fall down and worship him. And they will praise and bless and celebrate with song the lord of spirits. First Enoch, chapter 48, verses 4 through 5. The modern world doesn't acknowledge, but is nevertheless haunted by spirits, angels, demons and saints. In our time, many yearn to break free of the prison of a flat secular materialism, to see and to know reality as it truly is. What is this spiritual reality like? How do we engage with it? Well, how do we permeate everyday life with spiritual presence? Orthodox Christian priests, Father Andrew Stephen Damick and Fr. Stephen DeYoung host this live call in show focused on enchantment in creation, the union of the seen and unseen as made by God and experienced by mankind throughout history. Welcome to the Lord of Spirits.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Good evening, giant killers, dragon slayers, angels of the apocalypse. You are listening to the Lord of Spirits podcast. My co host, Father Stephen DeYoung, the bane of the banshee, is with me, straight from Swamp City and here.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Oh, sorry, not, not that.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

In Lafayette, Louisiana. And I'm Father Edge Stephen Damick in Emmaus, Pennsylvania, perched precariously atop the arcane tower of podcasting, hovering tens, if not dozens or thousands of stories about a disused gateway to the underworld. We're not live this time.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Or are we?

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

You never know. I mean, how about what happened last.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Week when nobody wants to talk about that. They're sick of hearing about that big news story last week.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

I know. Denmark, California invasion. I mean, who could have seen that coming? Yeah, Vikings on the loose once again. But we're not going to be taking any calls this time because this is probably a prerecorded episode. We'll get to those next time, God willing. So last time we talked about demonic possession, the action of demons generally in the world, and this time we're flipping the script, talking about the action of angels in the world. This is very retro 2020 era Lord of Spirits. So maybe this episode is going to be a little bit less creepy. So just will it, Father? I mean, I'm not saying you have to make promises.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

All the angels are wheels with eyes.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Oh, is that creepy? I mean, a little startling maybe.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

I mean a little bit. A little weird.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

I know. It's funny that the quote unquote biblically accurate angels, they never do the wheel bit. It's always just lots and lots of.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Feathers and they Try sometimes there's, like. But it just. It looks like, you know, arm bands or something. Like, it doesn't really look like a wheel.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah, right, right. I'm disappointed in all the memesters. Come on, you can do better.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Not like a wheel in the sky that keeps on turning.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Thank you for that. I was having a very 80s morning, actually. I saw someone did a trailer for Legends of Zelda as if it were like, every 80s T teen movie, which apparently someone made this, like, like 15 years ago. And I came across it again. It was very, very amusing. So look it up.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

You're just, like, 15 years behind on the Internet is what you're saying.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

I did live on Guam for five years, and that set me 15 years behind.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Did you see that Chocolate Rain video? Oh, did you see that one?

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

I have seen that one.

[Caller/Guest]

Yes.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Okay.

[Caller/Guest]

Yep.

Yep.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

So angels. What's.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

What's up with angels? Yeah. What's their deal?

[Caller/Guest]

Yeah.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

So, yeah, we are going to be talking about angels and related things. And, yes, like last time, some of this is going to be pulling together threads from previous episodes. And by previous episodes, I mean very early episodes.

[Caller/Guest]

Yeah.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Episodes fraught with all manner of technical difficulties. So maybe this will help.

[Caller/Guest]

But.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

And so we need to start by again, doing a little bit of. A little bit of review, a little bit of some of that material, which we're not going to belabor, but we do need to sort of touch on it. Refresher.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

So the first thing, of course, is classically, you know, if there's one orthodox thing about angels that an orthodox person is aware of, it's the idea of the ranks of angels. Saint Dionysus, the Areopagite.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Those nine ranks being in order. Seraphim, Cherubim, thrones, dominions, virtues, powers, principalities, Archangels, and angels.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Nice. Did you rattle that off from memory? Probably not, no.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

I can't do Sleepy, Happy, Grumpy, Dopey, Sneezy, Bashful, and Doc.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Oh, nice. My wife used to have all of that. Twas the Night Before Christmas memorized, actually.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Which I probably do accidentally.

[Caller/Guest]

Yeah.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

But I'm not gonna try. I'm not gonna check. We memorize Luke 2 every year for her. Yes, that was the.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Now that I said this podcast people are gonna approach my wife and be like, okay, tell me that. You know they're gonna make her do that. I'm sorry.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

When you get home, just say, you're welcome.

[Caller/Guest]

Yeah.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

She'll be like, what?

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

This is definitely the day to give her such a gift. But anyway, not to let on when we're recording.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

But actually she doesn't care about this day. Like, she literally actively opposes it.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

It's a saint's day.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

It is a saint's day. Saint Auxentius.

[Caller/Guest]

Yes.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Because everyone knows.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

What if she got against Saint Auxentius?

[Caller/Guest]

I know, I know.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

These people who war against the saints.

[Caller/Guest]

I don't get it.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Don't understand.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Deep cut there, Father Stephen. Deep cut, yeah. So there's those nine ranks.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yes. And so now. But again, we have to. There are ways of understanding this that are less helpful. So one way of understanding this is that these are sort of species of angel.

[Caller/Guest]

Yeah.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Because especially because they're depicted differently. There's this idea of like, oh, it's this kind or it's that kind.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

And so angels don't have species. There's a very good reason why they don't have species. They don't reproduce. Right, right.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

That's kind of the definition of species is a group that can reproduce with each other.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

So species kind of doesn't work. In fact, since they don't reproduce and they don't have material bodies, technically speaking, every angel is sui generis.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

It's its own genera, meaning it's unique.

[Caller/Guest]

Yeah.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Each angelic being is unique. So then what are these ranks?

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

It's also not ranks in the sense that, like, well, you start out as an angel, you get your wings, now you're an angel, and then you kind of work your way up.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

You put in 15 years and they make you an archangel. And then, you know, you keep working hard and, you know, maybe you could be a throne someday, kid. No, that's not.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

How it works. This is. These are essentially roles or jobs.

[Caller/Guest]

That.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

They have that these beings are entrusted with. That's what puts them in a particular rank. And then related to that job description, they are nearer or farther from God. What that means is not literal space, obviously, but it refers. It's a reference to the amount in which they participate in the glory of God. So there is a hierarchy. There are levels to this. There are levels to which they participate in God's grace, allowing them to perform the job, the tasks that are assigned to them by God. And we talked last time about the fact that God is doing this out of love. But we'll talk more about that later today. But this is, and this is obviously Saint Dionysius, if you understand how the celestial hierarchies, his text works, it works. It functions along with alongside, parallel to his ecclesiastical hierarchies. He's making a deliberate comparison.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

And a bishop is not a different species than a layperson. A bishop and a layperson are both humans.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

They just have a different role and a different task that God has called them to carry out.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

And just like with the angelic beings, the idea is they are to be faithful in carrying out that role and those tasks.

[Caller/Guest]

Yeah.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

And there is a hierarchy. Like it's, you know, some are first, some are second, some are. That's just the way that it is.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

It doesn't mean my bishop is the boss of me.

[Caller/Guest]

Yeah.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

It doesn't mean your bishop is necessarily a better person than you now.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Probably, but yes, in my case. Yes. But yes.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

But, you know, it, it's.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Or holier sub deacons who are better people than me. I mean, this is not.

[Caller/Guest]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

So it's, it's not about. It's not about who's considered to be, you know, more holy or anything like that.

[Caller/Guest]

You're right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

The other issue related to this that sometimes causes confusion is so there is this second lowest quote unquote, lowest rank archangels.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

And then there are the seven archangels. And sometimes people get confused about this. So they assume that those seven archangels. We're not going to talk about them a lot tonight. We've talked. But past episodes we have Saints Michael and Gabriel, Raphael, Uriel and then others, depending on which list you're looking at for which father. But those seven are in this second lowest rank. Some folks assume, or some folks assume that that second lowest rank only has seven members. Even though, for example, the liturgy, at one point in one of the prayers, we talk about there being thousands of archangels and ten thousands of angels.

[Caller/Guest]

Yeah.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

You're like, well, wait a minute, I thought there were seven archangels.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

So we have to remember how ark or arch works as a title. It just means first, literally. Or chief.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Ranking. So, like there are archbishops and arch priests.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

And so that could be used to indicate this rank of which there are thousands of members. But it could also be used, as it is with the seven to say these are the seven chief angels out of all the angels of all the ranks. And if you pay close attention to the church's tradition, this is borne out. For example, the synaxaria of the feasts of St. Michael say that he's a seraphim.

[Caller/Guest]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Well, and, you know, there's the reference, of course, in Revelation to these seven spirits who stand before the throne of God.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Right. Which is part of how Raphael introduces Himself in Tobit that we talked about last time.

[Caller/Guest]

Yeah, exactly.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Exactly.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yeah. So the seven archangels don't necessarily belong to the rank archangels, and the rank of archangels includes a lot more than just seven. Those. Than just seven. So those. That term archangel is being used in different ways.

[Caller/Guest]

Yeah.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

So we understand. And it's pretty clear when we read the Old Testament.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

We see lots of angels doing things.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

And we kind of see this sort of authority structure. God sends angels to do things. Angels are sort of intermediaries for various things. Second Temple tradition, for example, there's sort of an angelic intermediary or angelic intermediaries in terms of the giving of the Torah on Mount Sinai, etc. Angels get sent with messages. Archangels get sent with messages. St Raphael and Tobit, we're not going to rehearse every example of angels of the Old Testament now, but that God sort of administers things and sends his messengers, administers the creation through these angelic beings. Often, however, when we get to the New Testament, we have this particular mode of thinking that comes from a particular Protestant tradition that we've all kind of inherited in the United States where.

[Caller/Guest]

We.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Act as if all of that kind of drops out.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Because now we don't get a lot of talk about in the common sort of Christian world parlance in the United States. I'm talking about now, you don't hear anyone saying, I prayed to be healed and God sent an angel to heal me.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah, yeah, right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Like that's just not a way of speaking.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

But used to be, commonly used to be. But it's not.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Everything is sort of God directly.

[Caller/Guest]

Yeah.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

This kind of flattened hierarchy that just has God above and then everybody else.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yeah. And so as if.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

You know. Well, yes, these angels had all these jobs and had all these tasks and did all these things before Christ.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

There's a big reduction in force.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yes. There were just massive layoffs to the heavenly deep state at Christ's ascension.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

And now I guess they're just out of work. But of course, there's no reason to believe that.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Rather, what we see happening in Christ's incarnation and ascension, and look at the hymns of the feasts of the ascension. And now that what they say in terms of angels, what has changed is that through the incarnation, through Christ becoming man, and then through him taking our humanity and elevating it to the throne of God, humanity has sort of ascended that hierarchy, ascended that authority structure. Hebrews gets into this a lot. So that now there's depending on whether you want to count the nine ranks down, with seraphim being rank one, or you want to count the other way with angels being rank one, there's either a new rank one or 10, or rank zero or rank zero, zero through nine, if you want to go that way. That is glorified humanity.

[Caller/Guest]

Yeah.

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Saints and glory. And also for this, see Hymns to the Theotokos.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

More honorable than the cherubim, more glorious than the seraphim.

[Caller/Guest]

Yeah.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Which. Those are the highest ranks of angels. So if she's above that, that's a higher rank.

[Caller/Guest]

Right. And.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

A word here about the Theotokos, because I know we have non Orthodox listeners and non Roman Catholic listeners who probably involuntarily, even if they don't want to get a little bit of heebie.

[Caller/Guest]

Jeebies.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

When we start talking about the Theotokos.

[Caller/Guest]

Okay.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

But on this point and on all these points, Right. You have to remember that for the Orthodox Church, the Theotokos is the greatest human saint.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

And so when we're talking about human saints, we're talking about redeemed humanity, glorified humanity. We use her as the primary example because she is the prime example of a glorified human, of a human who has dedicated their life to God. Now, some of you may be thinking, why don't we use Jesus? Because Jesus is God.

[Caller/Guest]

Yeah.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

He didn't have to repent.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

And I'm not. But I am a human like the Theotokos.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

But the things we say about the Theotokos in this regard are true of glorified humanity in general in many cases.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

She's just being used as an exemplar.

[Caller/Guest]

Yeah.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

The difference between her and other saints is really a difference of degree.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Not in quantitative, not qualitative.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah. In this particular case, obviously there are certain unique things about her. She gives birth to God himself, which.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

No one else does.

[Caller/Guest]

Yeah.

Right.

But.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

But there are other things we say about her that give people the heebie jeebies. Like that she didn't actually commit sins that we also say about, like St. John the Forerunner.

[Caller/Guest]

Yeah, yeah.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

We were saying about St. John the Forerunner. People might give you a weird look, but they don't get the heebie jeebies the same way. And so if you're one of those folks, you should think about that for a minute. And what is it that's really giving you the heebie jeebies about the Theotokos? Is it just you've had some kind of homophobia hammered into you from childhood?

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

I say this as a Dutch person. That happens to people sometimes. So, yeah, so she's the exemplar. But she is an example of humanity has been glorified in Christ and therefore has ascended this angelic hierarchy. And what we mean by that, again, is not that now she's like part of the Trinity or a goddess or something like this in those kind of senses. What we mean by that is, again, redeemed humanity, glorified humanity is like another rank meaning. Has tasks.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Has things that they do on behalf of God.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Things that God has them do.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

And this is something that I think everybody of any even vaguely Christian stripe agrees on in terms of the world to come. When we're talking about the life of the world to come, we're talking about the resurrection, we're talking about eternal life. Oh, yeah, we're going to have all these jobs, we're going to have things. We're not just going to be sitting around doing things. Unless you're a stare at the orb type.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah. It's explicit in the Scriptures.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

So, yeah, the age to come is subject. It's not to angels that the age to come is subject, as St. Paul says.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

But it seems like for a large segment of folks, especially American evangelicals, they think the glorified saints just sort of twiddle their thumbs until then.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Like they're not doing anything. They don't.

[Caller/Guest]

They.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

They reject soul sleep. So they're asleep, they're conscious, they're in heaven or with Christ or, you know, however it wants to be phrased. But they're not doing anything.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Playing harps.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yeah, well, on clouds. And see, you can see how this is part and parcel of the same problem we mentioned earlier, because the angels also aren't really doing anything in the New Testament.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Right.

[Caller/Guest]

Yeah.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

For a lot of those folks.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

There's just sort of these. They're just enjoying life, I guess, or enjoying being angels, I don't know, singing. I don't know what they're doing all the time, but.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

But this sense of having a role in a task sort of gets bracketed off for this New Testament era and some kind of weird celestial dispensationalism.

[Caller/Guest]

Right, that.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Oh, yeah. In the Old Testament. Yes. And in the world to come. Yes. But not now.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Right now it's just God doing everything directly.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

But this idea, this understanding.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

When you, when you take the understanding of angels and their roles.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

That's clearly in the Old Testament scriptures. When you take the idea we've talked about before on the show about replacing fallen angelic beings, about glorified humans replacing full angelic beings. And then you add in the New Testament teaching of the incarnation of Christ that transcends even replacing angels to man was made a little lower than the angels, but exalted with glory and honor, first of all in Christ, and then Christ gives that benefit to us.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

That's where the whole concept of saints comes from.

[Caller/Guest]

Yeah.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

In the church.

[Caller/Guest]

Yeah.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

From the early days.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Add on, you know.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yeah. It's part and parcel of. Yes. They assume the kind of duties and do the kind of things that we see angels doing in the Old Testament.

[Caller/Guest]

Yeah.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

I mean, you just kind of list it off, like delivering messages, protecting people, hearing prayers, passing them on to God, you know.

[Caller/Guest]

Yeah.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

And especially if you, like, include all of church history, you see them doing things, you know, like being present at, like, alterations of the landscape, you know, stuff like this. Right. There's, you know, all the kind of stuff that you see angels doing in the Old Testament human saints are doing under the new covenant.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Right, right. And that will then continue in the life of the world to come.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

I mean, this is why Jesus describes sons of the Resurrection as equal to the angels in Luke 20:36.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

And the idea of venerating them, meaning showing them honor, is just the opposite of the biblical warnings we get in the New Testament against slandering angels.

[Caller/Guest]

Yeah.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Ever wonder what those are about? You ever just accidentally slander an angel? I don't get that a lot in confession.

[Caller/Guest]

Yeah.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

I was talking trash on my guardian angel.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Oh, man, don't do that. Your guardian angel might be. Might switch sides on you.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

That's a big no. Yeah, no for me, dog.

[Caller/Guest]

So.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

What that also means is, and we talked last time about, or we reviewed sort of last time about what a spirit is.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Is that as being sort of a level of consciousness above human consciousness that can sort of animate and motivate human consciences.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

On a collective level. Well, that means when someone becomes a saint, they become a spirit in that sense.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

See, our spirit episodes.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yeah. They exist in the noetic world, in the world of thoughts, the world of the mind, and they are able to. Then both angels and glorified humans are able to then function in that way.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

And what is that way? What is the goal? Well, it's the opposite of what the demons do.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

It's influencing and directing and guiding and shepherding, but towards God rather than towards destruction.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

And so the demons have an end in themselves. Just destroying people.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

They have no greater purpose. They're not trying to get you to go where. Worship Satan.

[Caller/Guest]

Right, Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

They don't care. They'll destroy you however they can.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

And they could do that through sort of casual, boring, depressive atheism.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

And if that's the way to destroy you, that's how they'll do it.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

Yeah.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Whatever it takes.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

They don't care.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

But angels have this very specific. And the saints have this very specific purpose of guiding people toward God. And Saint Dionysius and others say this was the purpose of the angels who God put over the nations, was to guide them back to God.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

After God had to distance himself from them because of their sin at Babel. So this idea of guiding and shepherding is what they do. And again, this is what's going on with. With the Theotokos and why she's using it as an example. She always directs and leads people to her son.

[Caller/Guest]

Yeah.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

In fact, in many icons, she's literally pointing at him.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yes, yeah. And she's always depicted with him.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Not always.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Always.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Well, not always.

[Caller/Guest]

Always.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

She's supposed to be always depicted.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

So, I mean, there is a.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

That is a rule, but like every other rule of the Orthodox Church.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah, but there is a tradition of icons of her at the moment of the Annunciation in particular.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Well, but even there. There's the beam.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Where Jesus sometimes. So he's. He's in the picture.

[Caller/Guest]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

But.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

But yes, overall true. I just had to get in my chance to. I'm actually. You, you know.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

No, no, you better shot. See if you're gonna. Actually, you should have brought up the icons of her birth.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Oh, there's that too. Or stuff like her as. As the abbess of Mount Athos.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yeah.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

This kind of thing.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

You know, holy protection.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Like every rule of the Orthodox Church, there's exceptions.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

Yes, Yep.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

But when you're just depicting her.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

So you could have a depiction of St. John the Forerunner or St. Nicholas, just an icon of them that doesn't have Jesus in it. Yeah, but you don't have an icon of the. You're not supposed to have an icon of the Theotokos like that without Jesus in it. And of course, as soon as you refer. One of the reasons why we refer to her all the time as the Theotokos is that keeps Christ in the picture.

[Caller/Guest]

Yeah.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Birth giver to God.

[Caller/Guest]

Yeah.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

But so that's. That's again, she's pointing Christ, but St. John the Forerunner.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

A lot of icons Especially icons that are going to go next to an icon of Christ or where Christ is in the icon, he's bowing toward him, gesturing toward him, pointing at him.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

And this is the case of all of the saints.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

They're pointing you, leading you, directing you to Christ. So one could ask the question, why doesn't God just come to humanity directly? Why the administrative state?

[Caller/Guest]

Yeah.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Wouldn't that be more efficient?

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Doesn't God need to cut the waste? That whole bureaucratic layoffs again at the Ascension? Yeah. So there's a couple things we have to say about that. Number one, sometimes God does.

[Caller/Guest]

Yeah.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

So see, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

[Caller/Guest]

Yes.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

He does talk directly to people sometimes.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

He appears directly. He shows that he eats with them.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

He wrestles with them.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

I'm more Adam and Eve. I mean, for crying out loud.

[Caller/Guest]

Right?

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yeah. I mean, very directly. So God does that sometimes. And of course, see Christ in the New Testament.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

But he doesn't always do that. Right. And there's something important to say, as we've said, as we just alluded to, with the Tower of Babel and with the flood, the presence of God, the direct presence of God is highly dangerous to sinful humanity.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

And so there's that. That sort of approach can end up, you know, causing a flood and wiping out humanity.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

And no one wants that.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

No one wants that. But there's something more important than that.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Because it's clear from him appearing to Abraham and Isaac and especially Jacob, who are not exactly sinless, that God can do that without killing someone if he wants to.

[Caller/Guest]

Sure, sure.

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

So it's not that it's beyond God, but the more important thing that we alluded to a little bit ago is that is the whole reason why God create, created anything. And that's love.

[Caller/Guest]

Yeah.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Which is not exactly efficient.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Why is there anything rather than nothing?

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Because of God's love. And so he created beings like us and like angels and other critters.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

To share his love and his life with. Out of his love. And so a big part of love is sharing. We've now turned into Mr. Rogers.

[Caller/Guest]

Yeah.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

And also, like I've said it before, and I'll say it again, Fred Rogers is the one saint produced by Presbyterianism.

[Caller/Guest]

Huh?

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

They got one.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Okay.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Only one. But they got one.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

I do hope that they will dedicate a church to him or something, or at least some kind of building. Yeah.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

I mean, the other thing is they ought to have something dedicated to Him.

[Caller/Guest]

Yeah, yeah.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

A Pittsburgh shrine. You know, like a lot of this particular critique, like, you know, is based on this idea of efficiency. Like God. Can't God just directly go, you know, whatever. Why through saints, why through angels? But like efficiency, while a significant component of day to day human life and, you know, communal life and government, whatever, whatever, whatever is completely irrelevant to an omnipotent being. Like, in what sense does efficiency matter when there's no limits? Right? Just think about it for a second, boys and girls. It doesn't matter if you're God. It doesn't matter.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Have you seen the Sound of Music?

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

I have seen the Sound of Music.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Are you going to try and run your family with ruthless efficiency? Have we learned nothing from Rogers at Hammerstein? You gotta open up to love if you want to escape the Nazis. But anyway, yes, but, yeah, right, and so, yes, God doesn't need angels, he doesn't need us. He doesn't need me. No, right.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

He can do anything he likes.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

He doesn't need me to celebrate liturgy in order to work in the lives of my parishioners. No, no, he doesn't. He can work directly in their lives if he wants to.

[Caller/Guest]

Yeah, right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

But he's given me that privilege out of love.

[Caller/Guest]

Right?

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

And him giving me that privilege out of love, that way of him using that way of working in the lives through the Eucharist, through the sacraments of my parishioners also has created this community of parishioners that's a community of love, people who love each other and God help them, even love me for some reason.

[Caller/Guest]

Right?

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

That's all created by the way that God does this. That's what we're talking about when we say that God is doing this out of love, right? And for the purpose of love. And so, yes, he doesn't need to send the Archangel Gabriel to the Theotokos. Yeah, he could have just told the Theotokos directly.

[Caller/Guest]

Yep.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

But he gives this mission to the Archangel Gabriel, who. Read our hypnography, right? Read the biblical text. This archangel, this highest ranking angelic being, is like honored and awed by this task he's been given.

[Caller/Guest]

Right?

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

That's a gift that God gave him.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

And so, I mean, that's really what I meant by try running your family, try operating, functioning in your marriage based on efficiency, right?

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Look, I told you last month that I love you.

[Caller/Guest]

Yeah.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Hasn't changed.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

No time for this discussion, honey. I have work to do. Yeah, right, like that dog don't hunt, Right. Or try racing your kids based on ruthless efficiency. Watch what happens. I can tell you, I can warn you in advance. They'll all go crazy the second they get out from under your thumb.

[Caller/Guest]

If not.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

That'S so. Yeah. And so that's not how God operates.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

That's not how God operates. That's not really how we want him to operate. Do you want your relationship to God to be marked by ruthless efficiency? Created You. Yeah. You are not necessary to the equation. So maybe not.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yeah. Now, again, I want to make very clear, we're not saying that there's something God can't do.

[Caller/Guest]

Yeah.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

I mean, he could also use fear and surprise in addition to ruthless efficiency.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yes. And a fanatical devotion to the Pope, which I do not have, by the way.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

I was going to ask.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Fanatical or even non fanatical.

[Caller/Guest]

Right, right. But.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

But yeah, we're not, we're not saying that there's something God can't do. As we said before on the show, anytime you see any theological principle or theological point being made that's premised on there being something God can't do.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

You know, you should reject it. You know, this is nonsense saying God can't do blank.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Even if they say something to you like God can't sin.

[Caller/Guest]

Yeah.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

That's time to interrogate what they mean by sin.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Mean by. Yeah, exactly.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

And what's going on there.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Something that seems like, whoa, okay, that sounds right.

[Caller/Guest]

Well.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Nonetheless.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

God can do anything he wants. Nonetheless. What we see, what's revealed to us in the world, what we know of God is His working in the world, his operations, his activities. And we observe that God works in certain ways based on love, based on sharing, based on. Right. These are ways that we observe him working.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

And that's how we know who he is. And so we don't base our discourse on God on what we think he can and can't do. We base our discourse on God on how we see him working and what we see him doing. And what we see him doing in the Scriptures.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

All through the Scriptures is operating through agents working through means in the world. The way he usually expresses his love for people is not like directly beaming it into their soul or their heart. Honestly, it isn't. It's through other people.

[Caller/Guest]

Yeah.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

That's the most common way God shows His love. And this is all of these things. All of these things. This is why the Book of Acts is so important. The Book of Acts gets treated like it's just sort of an epilogue to the gospels.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

And St. Luke's gospel in particular. But the Book of Acts is Very important for a bunch of reasons. But some of those reasons are what we're getting at right here. So, for example, we see angels coming and doing things in the Book of Acts just like they did in the Old Testament. That seems to imply that there's not a change in the role of angels after Christ's ascension.

[Caller/Guest]

Yeah.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

If they're still doing the same things, like letting St. Peter out of prison.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

So there's not. We see there's not a big shift there. Also importantly.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

If we're, if someone were motivated to make the point that, like, well, okay, no, now there's Jesus. Right. So we have these Old Testament figures. Yeah, those old figures. Testament figures were important because they're sort of types of Christ. They sort of point us to who Jesus will be. But now we have Jesus. So, like, none of that's important anymore. We just focus on Jesus. Except the Book of Acts is in the New Testament and is mostly about St. Paul.

[Caller/Guest]

Yeah.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

I mean, and also St. Philip, St. Stephen, St. Peter.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

And here's the fun bit. At the very beginning, St. Luke writes, you know, in, in my, in the previous, in my former treatise, O Theophilus. I love that translation. But, you know, referring to his gospel.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

He says, volume one in our last episode.

[Caller/Guest]

Yeah, exactly.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Volume one. This is, you know, Acts as volume two. You know, I, I wrote about all the things that Jesus began to do and to preach, meaning that the Book of Acts, which is basically, frankly, the earliest collection of saints lives, Christian saints lives, but mostly St. Paul, is Jesus continuing to do and to preach.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

But he's doing that through human agents, through his disciples and apostles. His apostles being the ones he sent out to do these things.

[Caller/Guest]

Yeah, yeah.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

And assign these tasks. So even in the New Testament.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

God is administering his creation, working in his creation through means, which includes glorified human saints, includes the angels, as it always has, and it includes humans here on earth.

[Caller/Guest]

Yep, yep.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

So. All right. Well, that's our first half for this episode. We're talking about angels. And we'll be right back.

[Narrator]

Father Andrew, Stephen Damick and father Stephen DeYoung will be back in a moment to take your calls on the next part of the Lord of Spirits. Give them a call at 855-237-2346. That's 855-AF-RADIO.

[Announcer]

The centuries after the Protestant Reformation brought about a radical reinterpretation of The Epistles of St. Paul, disconnected from any historical reality. But Paul operated during his entire life as a faithful Pharisee within the Roman Jewish world. In St. Paul the Pharisee, Jewish apostle to all nations, Father Stephen DeYoung surveys Paul's life and writings, interpreting them within the holy tradition of the Orthodox Church. This survey is followed by De Young's interpretive translation of St. Paul's epistles, which deliberately avoids overly familiar terminology. By using words and ideas grounded in 1st century Judaism, DeYoung hopes to unsettle commonly held notions and help the reader reassess St. Paul in his historical context. Available now at store.ancient faith.com Again, that is store.ancient faith.com.

[Narrator]

We'Re back now with the Lord of Spirits with Father Andrew, Stephen Damick, and Father Stephen DeYoung. If you have a question, call now at 855-8523-7-2346. That's 855-AF-RADIO.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

All right, we're back. It's the second half of this pre recorded episode of the Lord of Spirits podcast. So if you call, we will not answer. Someone else.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Someone might, though, so see what happens.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Probably not. Don't bug Trudy. We gave her the night off.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Well, then she won't answer the phone, will she? There you go. Won't be there. Exactly.

[Caller/Guest]

Exactly.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Someone else could be working late. Like, oh, I wonder who's calling?

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

That's what I'm saying. Maybe they'd. Some telephonic company. It could be. Could be. They're burning the midnight oil.

[Caller/Guest]

Yeah.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

We're talking about angels. Last time we talked about demons and their activity in the world, and this time we're talking about angels and their activity in the world. And we just did a kind of review, actually, of a lot of stuff that we've discussed in previous episodes. Who are angels? What are angels? What do they do in the scriptures? And then also the fact that God works through agents, you know, that are not always directly. And that's okay because he doesn't need to be efficient because he's God and he loves us and wants to share. How about that?

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Let's go watch the Sound of Music. Seriously.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

I know. I kind of wonder sometimes, like, what people's view of God is that they think that efficiency is this really important thing. Like, how do they understand who God is? Is he God?

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Well, he's definitely a capitalist. I mean, we know that for sure.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

He's definitely a.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Whenever he blesses a preacher, it's by giving them a lot of money.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah, clearly.

[Caller/Guest]

Yeah.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Like he's sitting on top of some big machine that works in a particular way that he set up. I feel like that's the notion of God that says that he has to be efficient, that saints and angels are not really, you know, do you have to go through them? You know, we'll talk more about that, of course, as we go. So. All right, so let's. Let's talk a little bit more about angels as they actually. As we experience them, as they're actually acting in the world in a more experiential level and not just the sort of theoretical level we've been talking about.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yeah, yeah. So, yeah, as we said, angels have jobs.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

They have assignments. They have roles that they play is actually the better term. And because job, we don't want to get too little. Again, God not a capitalist per se. We don't want to get too literal about the jobs thing. There's no promotions, as we talked about. Right. This is. But the tasks and assignments of angels can change.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

If you.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

So the archangel Gabriel, when he appears in Scripture, is doing different things.

[Caller/Guest]

Yeah.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

So like, what he's doing in Daniel, for example, and what he's doing when he comes to the Theotokos are two different missions, tasks, roles, jobs.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

So there are different things.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

And of course, those could be taken away because as we talked about under the heading of demons, there are angels who fell. There are other reasons why God takes things away. The angels who were placed over the nations didn't fulfill their task. And as we've talked about before the show, see Psalm 82, which is the judgment they receive for that. And then see Matthew, the end of Matthew 28, and Christ saying, right before his ascension, all authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore, go make disciples of all nations.

[Caller/Guest]

Yeah.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

I mean, could it be said that when they walked off the job that they. That they ghosted?

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

No. Oh, okay. Because they didn't actually walk off the job.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Oh.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

They had to be escorted out by security. Oh, that's.

[Caller/Guest]

Yeah, that's true.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

So, okay, I thought I had a.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Decent little joke there, but no.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yeah, you're trying. I'm all about.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

It's some new material. I gotta try it out.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

You're still working it out on the road. Yeah, that's right.

[Caller/Guest]

But yeah.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

And for anyone who still doubts that interpretation we just quickly gave, I would note to you that in the Holy Saturday liturgy, we sing Psalm 82 and then we read the end of Matthew 28.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

So, yeah, they're directly connected.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

And Psalm 82 is sung as the gospel hymn. As the introduction to that gospel reading.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Exactly. It's not just. It replaces the alleluia so, like, it's literally connected to the gospel. It's not just the thing that comes before for it. Yes, it's directly connected.

[Caller/Guest]

Yeah.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

That.

[Caller/Guest]

Yes.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Singing. Somebody who introduces that gospel reading. So the church has ruled on this liturgically, folks.

[Caller/Guest]

Yeah, yeah.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

You know, so take your. Your passel of half fake patristic quotes you got from chat GPT and go pound sand. Thank you.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Sadly, a real thing.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

I know. But yeah. So probably the assignment when we're thinking about different roles and tasks that angels are assigned, probably the one that's most, as Father Andrew said at the beginning of this half that's most experientially relevant to us is our guardian angel.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

The one that's assigned to me.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Because I'm a narcissist. That's the most important one. So. And so again, this is something we get questions about because we've talked about this other show, and I know this is affliction. I know folks can't help it.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

And they're trying to get over it. But we still have this spreadsheet thing where we're trying to fill in our boxes. And so one of the questions we get an awful lot is, right, because of course, there is this tradition, and it's in the prayers that a guardian angel is assigned to someone when they're baptized. And this over time has gotten us a legion of questions about, well, what if I was Chrismated?

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Does that mean anybody who's not in the Orthodox Church doesn't have a guardian angel? Does the baby not have a guardian angel until it gets baptized? Does. You know, what about later on in the liturgy, in the litanies where we ask for an angel of peace, a faithful guide, a guardian for our souls and bodies? Why do we have to ask for one if we got assigned one at baptism?

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

When we say the prayers for someone who's traveling, why do we ask God to send an angel like Saint Raphael with Tobit if you already have one?

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

And people get very confused. That's because you're trying to put these things in boxes, Right. They don't have to be in boxes. Let them breathe. Poetry is okay. It doesn't all have to be prose.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Amen.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

And so, yes, it is true on the one hand, that there is a tradition. We believe that a person who is baptized or a person who becomes a Christian, they have an angel assigned to watch over them and spiritually protect them and most importantly, do what we were talking about in the last half, guide them in their life toward God. Toward Christ.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

That is the guardian angel's most important task to help guide.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

But we also pray all the time for that angel to watch over us and protect us.

[Caller/Guest]

Right?

Yeah.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

And because, as we just said, assignments can change. Some of those prayers have as their subtext. Man, I've been doing a lot of rotten stuff that my guardian angel, being holy, doesn't want to know about and doesn't want to see. Don't take him away.

[Caller/Guest]

Yeah.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

And then there's also, you know, I.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Still need his help.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

That 1983 Scorpion song, Send me an angel.

[Caller/Guest]

Right now. Yeah.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

That was for our European listeners. So. Yeah. So we don't have to totally nail this down. Right. But yes. Oh, man, that Amy Grant song just came into my head. Nightmare fuel. Okay, moving on.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Do you need to take a moment, Father?

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

I need. Well, I need a stiff drink, but I don't think I should take one on the air. So. But so angels, Right. Also, it's important to recognize, just like demons, angels have their own agency.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Angels are not just like sock puppets God uses. Right. Like.

[Caller/Guest]

Yeah.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Or inanimate tools.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

They have a will. But the reason it's important to make this point is our weird, distorted view of free will.

[Caller/Guest]

Right?

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Our weird, this is a very modern thing, distorted version of free will is, well, demons have free will because demons do what they want, but angels don't. Because angels just do whatever God tells them.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Well, first of all, if they don't have free will, how did there end up being demons?

[Caller/Guest]

That's.

Yeah.

But.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Checkmate.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yeah, take that. But no, angels have their own agency. The fact that you voluntarily align your will and your activity with God's will and God's activity, like we were talking about in the last episode, the fact that you choose to do that does not mean you don't have free will. It means you have freely done that.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

I mean, this is one of the things that sometimes people, skeptics of religion, quote unquote, will sometimes say, like, well, you only think that or do that because your. Your priest or your pastor, your bishop told you to. You know, I'm like, that one's making me be here.

[Caller/Guest]

Yeah.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

You know, I am on my own recognizance. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's. And even. And this is. This is important, an important principle in orthodox life.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

When we. And we've talked about this on the show before, we're talking about, like, the concept of obedience.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

For obedience to be obedience, it has to be freely given.

[Caller/Guest]

Yeah.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

It's a Voluntary aligning. I mean, literally voluntary. That means according to the will.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yeah. If you're enslaved, right, you are not being obedient, you are being threatened and punished and forced to do things.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Like, that's not the same thing as someone in authority telling you to do something and you voluntarily obeying that command. Those are two different things. So. Yeah. So angels are the same way, right? They have their own agency as spirits. They're spirits. They're not ideas. They're not sock puppets. They're not drones. They have their own agents and they.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

As we just alluded to, how did there get to be demons? Okay, a little more detail, because we talk about this, we've talked about, you know, we talk about all the time, angels falling. And we've talked about that with a little more nuance, I think, on this show than a lot of places. But what does that concretely mean? And how concretely does that happen?

[Caller/Guest]

Right?

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

And we've even used some terminology where if you press it, like, what does that mean? So, like, when we've talked about the angels who are set over the nations, we've talked about the, you know, the, the, the humans of that nation start worshiping them as gods. And we've used language like, well, they accept it.

[Caller/Guest]

Yeah.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

What does that mean? What does that mean behind some altar somewhere? And, and yes, Give me, give me, give me, give me. That, that.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yes. Thank you for the smoke. Thank you for burning those bones.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Is it like in the Iliad, you know, where they're up there going, smells great, I'm going to give you favor and war.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yeah, Right. So what that means is, what we're talking about is we're talking about an angelic being aligning its will with a human will.

[Caller/Guest]

Hmm.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

So it, this is why in each of the Angelic Falls, all 5ish of them that we reiterated last time, there is this human component, right. It is commensurate with some group of humans also falling.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

It's not this separate event that we sort of hear about objectively.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

And so in each of those cases, every time that happens, there is some angelic being and some human being or beings, right, who align their wills with each other over against aligning themselves with God's will.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

So angelic falls happen in communion with humanity.

[Caller/Guest]

Yeah.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Which is. I mean, this is why St. Paul says, don't eat pagan sacrifices, because that's basically don't do communion with demons because it's going to drag you down.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

And this is. I mean, they understood this St. Paul understands this. The passage in 1 Corinthians you're talking about reflects that. But this is how the pagans understood it. They were in communion with their gods. They were part of a community with their gods.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

And there was this relationship.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Of give and take.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

And of being shaped.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

And you can see Plato talking about the age of Cronus, where the gods were first assigned and they were all sort of peaceful and merciful shepherds. And then something happened. And now not so much for Plato.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yeah. And so that sort of concretely, if you want the how that happens, that's how that happens. And by the way, that is the answer to the whole puzzling question. People roll over and over again all the time of like, well, wait, how can angels be mutable if they don't have physical bodies? Why can't they repent? Why can't be beautiful?

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Because this happens.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

In terms of humans who do have physical bodies that are mutable, that has happened through communion with humans. And you know those Minority Report of weird stories where you do see a demon, something happens akin to repentance. They become an angel again. There's a few stories, the Desert Fathers, where that happens. In every one of those stories, it's through communion with a human, a particularly holy human.

[Caller/Guest]

Yeah.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Which kind of suggests a human saint.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Humans have power over angels.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yes. That's through whom. They're almost like we're going to judge them someday.

[Caller/Guest]

Huh.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

I feel like I read that somewhere.

[Caller/Guest]

Yeah.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Like we're in the hierarchy above them. Glorified humans are in the hierarchy above them. It's almost like that.

[Caller/Guest]

Yeah.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

A lot of what St. Paul says in this regard assumes the Incarnation.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Even though he never straight comes out and says, and this is why, again, somebody like Bart Ehrman even thinks. He now roughly thinks that St. Paul was an Arian. He doesn't think. He isn't fully there yet, but he has moved from the position that St. Paul didn't think Jesus was divine to. Oh, no, there is some kind of incarnation thing happening here in the background that's fundamental to his logic.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Come on over. Bart Ehrman for the show.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

So almost there.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Keep going, Keep going.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Don't call in tonight. Next live show, call in and we'll talk about it.

[Caller/Guest]

Yeah, absolutely.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

We'll just clear everything off the.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Well, I will. I will clear the decks and just talk to Bart Urban for three hours. If he wants to talk for three hours. I doubt he wants to talk to me for three hours. I don't know that he wants to talk to me for five minutes, but I really doubt. Three hours, but open invitation, but I would if you wanted to. And yeah, so, but so what that's showing is, again, we talked about this last time, humans have a noose, have a mind, right. We are the type of being that overlaps the spiritual world, the world of thoughts, the noetic world, and the physical material world.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

And we experience all of that together. Again, that's kind of the theme of this show. The overarching theme of the show is that humans experience all of that, even if they want to deny part of it, they still experience it and participate in it. Angelic beings are in that noetic layer of the created world. My dogs are in the physical, material part of that creation. Human beings overlap it. And so that's why there is, in the same way that humanity has a certain relationship to the rest of the material creation vis a vis, representing it to God.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Humanity also has a role, especially in light of the incarnation, in terms of.

[Caller/Guest]

The.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Noetic realm, the realm of angels and demons. And that's what St. Paul is getting at there with the, with the judging angels. But so that world, that world of thoughts, that noetic world, that world of the noose.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

That we perceive through our mind, that's where angels, not just demons, but also angels, operate primarily when you're not seeing them, which is most of the time.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

And in that world of thoughts, just as demons come and throw thoughts at us, sometimes described as darts, that whole reshef analogy that comes through the psalms, angels come with positive thoughts, with godly thoughts, thoughts of God. And those likewise are thoughts that we could choose to focus on. As St. Paul says, whatever is good, whatever is pure, whatever is noble, think on these things.

[Caller/Guest]

Yeah.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

I mean, and we all have this experience too, right? Like you'd be just doing something, and then something very good will occur to you. And if you're like me, you kind of go, that's nice, and move on most of the time. But actually, how.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Back to this social media post that's making me angry.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah, exactly. But you know, just, hey, hey, pay attention to those thoughts a little bit more. If you can, you know, and think, wait, could I do that? Usually the answer is yes.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

And the, the. And as we talked about last time, those are the thoughts that we need to be building into ideas.

[Caller/Guest]

Yeah.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Like work with that and ideas that we then act upon.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

That we then put to work in our lives. Yeah, yeah, right, yeah. Rather than the other thoughts.

[Caller/Guest]

Right, yeah.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

This is Part of what we're talking about last time with replacing the negative with the pot. Right. The idea is these things, these good things, we take those, focus on those and build those.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Right?

[Caller/Guest]

Yeah, yeah.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Like, I mean, a thought comes into your head, it's good to ask this question of this, of the thought. Is this thought going to help my salvation or harm it? And, you know, usually the answer to that question is pretty straightforward and easy. And then, you know, based on that, you can focus on the thought or tell it to take a hike.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yeah, yeah. Now we have to make a note here because there's another place where sort of Calvinist Puritan Protestant tradition rears its ugly head in American evangelicalism. And that's that this stuff we're talking about with angels and thoughts, if you're used to hearing anything like that in the American Christian world, it's probably all attributed to the Holy Spirit.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah, the Holy Spirit told me.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yeah, the Holy Spirit told me this.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Often it's the Holy Spirit told me to tell you.

[Caller/Guest]

Yeah.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

You know, the Holy Spirit gave me this. Or, you know.

[Caller/Guest]

Yeah, God.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

The thing that always ground my gears when I'd hear somebody. I was going to talk about something totally different, but the Holy Spirit really laid it on my heart to say this. Then they say something that's just absolutely incorrect about the Bible.

[Caller/Guest]

Yes.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Like verifiably, factually incorrect. And I'm like, that wasn't the Holy Spirit, bro.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah, God laid it on my heart. That's something you hear a lot.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Technically, you just blasphemed. No, that is. That's blasphemy.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah.

[Caller/Guest]

No, I know.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Taking your own words and claiming they're the words of God.

[Caller/Guest]

Yeah.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Okay. Claiming God told you something that isn't true. That's blasphemy.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

I think. Yeah. I think it's because, you know, people, for whatever reason, people have been trained that a strong feeling or a good feeling or something making sense to them equals the action of God directly on them.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

But.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

And you can, you can weaponize this.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

And people, I'll give you a recent example that I found fascinating. So, prominent Protestant Internet apologist, okay. But my personal favorite Roman Catholic apologist, I'm not going to name any names here, but my personal favorite Roman Catholic apologist, for various reasons, makes a video just like, logically, point by point, annihilating this whole talk given by this Protestant.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Apologist.

[Caller/Guest]

Okay.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

So, of course, people, both people on the Roman Catholic side and people on the Protestant apologist side want the Protestant apologist to Respond to this. Okay, so Deluge thinks, hey, are you going to respond to this? Are you going to respond to this, man? Like, it really sounds like you kind of wrecked. Wrecked your battleship. Right?

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Like you're totally pwned.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yeah. Like, are you. When are you going to respond to this? Are you ready for the response they got from all sides? God, in terms of, will he address this?

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Sitting on the edge of my seat here?

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Do you want person's name to spend time on this rather than the things God has given him to talk about?

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Wow.

[Caller/Guest]

Wow.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Amazing.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

So, yeah. Talk about weaponization.

[Caller/Guest]

Right?

I know.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

And what is buried in there? The claim that every video this Guy releases on YouTube is coming from God.

[Caller/Guest]

Right, Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

This isn't a charismatic guy who would call himself a prophet, but he's basically claiming to be a prophet when he says that.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

I know it's. And it's, you know, it's obviously wrong on its face. Right. Because. Because the problem is the people who make these claims for themselves or about the guy that they're simping for, you know, what about the fact that other people who are making those exact same claims say things that contradict what, you know, prophet number one is saying? Then you have to pick between them, and then it's like, well, why should you pick this guy and not this guy? You know, why is this set of opinions, though? This is the set of opinions from the Holy Spirit. This one guy has it, which, I mean, okay, yes, that's theoretically possible, but that's not Christianity, you know.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

This is not the Messiah. Right. I actually read someone. Someone the other day on. On the tweeters said, you know, if you dislike so and so. Speaking of a. Of an orthodox figure online, if you dislike so and so, then you oppose the church. Father. Whatever. I'm like your buddy there is not Jesus, you know.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yeah. You know, he is not the church fathers, even.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah. He's also not. Yeah, exactly.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Like, you know, he's not even one of the church fathers.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

I'm like, oops, you kind of did an idolatry there.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yeah. He's not even a saint yet.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Right, Exactly.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Maybe someday, but.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Exactly. Simply easy.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Oh, stops it, everyone. Like, if you are an adult man, okay, there are ways you should never talk to another adult man. But I get emails anyway. Just stop.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

Email.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

But. So here's what we're suggesting. We're not just, hey, let's pick on the way evangelicals talk. That's not. That's honestly not what we're trying to do.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Right? No, no.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

What we're trying to say is. And the reason I gave. The example I gave is that's where that just. Oh, way of talk. Well, yeah, that's just a way of talking. It got kind of weaponized in a weird way.

[Caller/Guest]

Right?

Yeah.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Like to shut down discussion, to not have to be accountable, have some restraint.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Like. Like, it's like say.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

No, no. Just here, you say this. You say this because this is what we're saying. The truth is.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

You say a thought occurred to me.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

And I think it's a good one. And here's my idea based on that.

[Caller/Guest]

Yeah.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Here's my fallible idea.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Because as we talked about, when you move last time, when you move from a thought to an idea, your subjectivity comes into it. My subjectivity comes into it.

[Caller/Guest]

Yeah.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

You're engaged, therefore it's fallible.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

That's right. That's right.

[Caller/Guest]

Yeah.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

That thought did come from God through an angel. I might get it wrong.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Right, Right. I think there should just be a whole lot more, a whole lot less of God laid it on my heart and a whole lot more, it seems to me.

[Caller/Guest]

Yeah.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

This is coming from me.

[Caller/Guest]

Yeah.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Like, this is coming from me. Not directly from God. Not even directly from an angel. It's coming from me.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

Yep.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

But I think this is.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

That's. You know. Yeah.

[Caller/Guest]

And that.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

You don't get as many clicks that way. Father.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

None of my books. Yeah. I had a really disappointed parishioner because I pointed out to them that if I went back and read Religion of the Apostles right now.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

That I wrote. I technically I wrote it like six years ago.

[Caller/Guest]

Yeah.

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

That I would probably think that some of it is not correct.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Because I've learned things. I've changed my opinions on things. There are at least things that I probably word differently.

[Caller/Guest]

Sure, sure.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Or explain more or whatever that I would change.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

The editing could just never stop. That's always the problem with being like.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Oh, wait, I can't believe I read. Especially after years. Right. Like, go back to it. You're like, oh, yeah, no, you know, that was cringe. Really be more like this. Yeah.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

But this kind of upset him because he's like, well, wait, should I read it or not?

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Like you're telling me it's.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

And I had to say, like, at any time I talk to you, I'm doing my best.

[Caller/Guest]

Sure.

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

I'm giving you my best case. My best understanding in that moment.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

But I hope that a few years from now, my understanding of these things will be better. Which means I'll think that my understanding today was to some degree, wrong.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Unbelievable.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

But I am very aware of my own subjectivity and fallibility.

[Caller/Guest]

Right. And.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yeah. And so I'm sorry if that bothers people.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Like, this parishioner wanted me to present it as if, like. No, I stand by every word of this. And I'm like, if I read it, I probably don't.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Like, you know, not every word.

[Caller/Guest]

No.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

And that's okay. It's all right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

It's the world we live in, of human communications.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

That's why most of what's on our bookshelves is Apocrypha.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yes. Yes. Extra biblical literature is everything except the Bible.

[Caller/Guest]

Yes.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

So. Yes. Good digression. Good digression.

[Caller/Guest]

Yeah.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yeah. Well, no, it is important to disambiguate that, though, right? It really is.

[Caller/Guest]

Yes.

Right.

Yes.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

That there is not. When St. Paul talks about the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Read his epistles. Show me where he talks about it as the Holy Spirit feeding us information.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

About people, about the future, about their future, any of that. The comparison he's always making is to the presence of God in the temple in the tabernacle, and the Holy Spirit is the presence of God in us. That's the comparison he makes over and over again. And the presence of God in the tabernacle in the temple was not like whispering prophecies to the priests while they served.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

It wasn't oracular.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

That wasn't a thing.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

Yeah.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

So I know that a lot of groups in America today, they think that's what the Holy Spirit does, but frankly, that's not in the Bible, man. And especially if you're one of our Protestant friends, it being not in the Bible should be super important to you.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

I mean, he's going to give you utterance, bro. It's just going to occur to you, he's going to like, you know, the words are just going to appear in your brain and, you know.

[Caller/Guest]

Yeah.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Or not.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Well, we won't go down that rabbit trail anymore. Another. We already have, I think, back in our prophecy, our episode on prophets and prophecy.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

So what else are angels doing? So angels are kind of. They're hanging out in the world of thoughts. What else?

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Well, they're not hanging out. They have jobs.

[Caller/Guest]

Okay.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

You know what I mean? That is where they are. No angelic unemployment after the Ascension.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

No loafers.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

But so the kind of thoughts. What are the kind of thoughts?

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Well, positive.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

We don't just mean positive like Wholesome or think good thoughts. Pretty or nice.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

That's not what we're talking about. We're talking about reminders and guidance. Right. They're guiding us to God. So reminders of sin and repentance.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Reminders of God's forgiveness of us and the forgiveness that's available to us when we repent. Reminders of God himself.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Reminders that the good things we have come from him.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Reminder. These are the kind of thoughts we're talking about.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

That would be the ones that angels are throwing our way as opposed to the ones that demons are throwing our way.

[Caller/Guest]

Yeah, Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

But we also want to, because we talked about how humans. Right. Bridge these two sort of layers of created reality. The sort of angelic or noetic or the world of thoughts and the physical and material world. Again, as we've said since literally the very beginning of the show, since the first episode, these are not two different realities.

[Caller/Guest]

Yeah.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

These are not split natural, supernatural. That's not an orthodox Christian thing.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

No. There's not some barrier between the two. You don't, like, astrally project to get into the other one. Sorry. Dr. Strange and Professor.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Sorry.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

A lot of astral projection in Marvel Comics. I'm just realizing that.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

I know, right, sorry.

[Caller/Guest]

Dr.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Strange.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Well, he is the sorcerer supreme, which I assume means he has all the toppings. But anyway, so these aren't two different realities, Right. This is one created world, one creation of God that has these different elements and aspects to it.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

That we can distinguish between. And so angels aren't sort of restricted to this world of thoughts.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

And we see this in scripture, obviously.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

And they're associated with places and with things.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

There are the angels who govern. Philo quote, which we won't read again. Right. The sun, moon and stars.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

And different parts of material creation. The nations, as we mentioned.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

And so there's not this barrier sort of between them, like. Oh, though they're just restricted to this thought world. They can't, like, sort of appear in the physical or material world. They can't act within the physical material world. They're not related in any way to it. No, they are. Right. That's.

[Caller/Guest]

Yeah.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

But they don't live in both the way we do because they don't have material bodies like us.

[Caller/Guest]

Yeah, yeah, Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

They live in one, but it's not separated from the other part. The other.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

They function as spirits. As spirits. That's their main function is this sort of influencing, you know, thing.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

They're influencers. That's what we're saying.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

There we go. So make sure you like and subscribe. Click the little notification button, click the.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Bell, you know, every time a new thought appears.

[Caller/Guest]

Exactly.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

All right. Well, that's the second half of this episode of Lord of Spirits talking about Angels. We'll be right back with the third and final half. See you soon.

[Narrator]

Father Andrew Stephen Damick and father Stephen DeYoung will be back in a moment to take your calls on the next part of the Lord of Spirits. Give them a call at 855-237-2346. That's 8555-AF-RADIO.

[Announcer]

People often complain that the Divine Liturgy is always the same week after week. But every ritual phrase and action in the service has meaning and purpose, drawing in worshippers with its hymns and prayers and allowing ordinary people to leave the world and enter heaven for a short time. In the new book Blessed Is the Kingdom, Father Stavros Akrotirianakis, a longtime parish priest, offers reflections on the text of the Divine Liturgy of Saint John Chrysostom to help readers learn to pray the liturgy and to understand and appreciate the mystery that unfolds each time it is celebrated. Available [e-mail] Again, that is store.ancientfaith.com we're.

[Narrator]

Back now with the Lord of Spirits, the Father Andrew Stephen Damick and Father Stephen DeYoung. If you have a question, call now at 855-237-2346. That's 8-55-AF-RADIO.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

And we're back. It's the third half of this episode of the Lord of Spirits podcast. Once again, we're pre recorded, so we're not taking any calls. We don't know what will happen if you call that number, but we're not taking any calls.

[Caller/Guest]

Exactly.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Most of you don't listen live anyway, so. Yeah, so, you know, it's the same experience as always. Anyway, we're talking about angels and we just finished up our second half where we were talking about the sort of the nitty gritty of angelic activity in the world. So what else is there? I mean, we, yeah, I mean, there's more to say about their ministry, but there's some, some interesting things about what angels have to do with humans. Exactly. I think that we could talk about here.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yes. Yeah, yeah. So we talked about, in the first half we talked about sort of how God administers creation through angels. And then the second half we talked a little bit about how angels interact with us within the created world. And now this third half, not to show Our hand too much. But you might detect some madness to our method. We're going to talk about how angelic beings function in terms of our relationship upwards toward God.

[Caller/Guest]

Yeah.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

And so one window we get into that is the reference that Christ makes to guardian angels.

[Caller/Guest]

Yeah.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

When he talks about the little ones who we are not to offend because their angels are always before the throne of the Father in heaven.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

They're angels.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

So they have angels, hence the reference to guardian angels. But it's not just that, oh, they have a guardian angel and he's going to come smite you.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

If you offend them. But that angel is always right, is standing before the throne of the Father in heaven. So what's it doing?

[Caller/Guest]

Yeah.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Isn't it supposed to be guarding them? Why is it hanging out?

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah. What are you doing there? The space doesn't work the same in the noetic realm as it does.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

So if in the first half we were coming at it sort of top down, right. God toward creation, now we're sort of coming at it sort of bottom up.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

And in that sense we see this angel clearly that Christ is talking about. These angels are functioning as sort of intermediaries, Right. They're interceding with, speaking to, praying to God, communicating to God about what is going on with their charges, these little ones on earth who are being abused in some way.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

And Christ is saying, you should be aware of that before you mistreat.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

One of these, that, Right. This is what you're doing is being reported to God. Now again, does that mean God wouldn't know otherwise?

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Why doesn't Christ just say, hey, God sees what you do and he sees how you treat people.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

He knows when you're sleeping, he knows when you're awake.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

I mean, he does. That would be a true statement, right?

[Caller/Guest]

Yes. Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

We're not saying God doesn't.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Like that would be a true statement.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

But this points to a reality that again, right, out of love, God has given these angelic beings this intermediary role.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

That they are participants in and share in this relationship of love between God and this human person he's created.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

So hard to imagine being my guardian angel would be any kind of privilege as opposed to being someone else's. Maybe not, but in this sense it is.

[Caller/Guest]

Right?

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

In this sense it is this, by the way, right. When we talk about, and we mentioned this, we mentioned this in terms of the quote we've mentioned several times from St. Andrew of Crete, but the idea of the devil falling through envy.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

This, of course, is understood to be talking about envy of the sort of special relationship between God and humanity.

[Caller/Guest]

That.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Isn'T shared in the same sense by God and angels. See, Hebrews, right? Because of the incarnation. About which of the angels did God ever say?

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

Yeah.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

And he responded to that with envy, right?

[Caller/Guest]

Yeah.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

But the correct response, right? And what we see with the angels who didn't fall out of envy or anything else, right. Is that they were given a role within that relationship. That relationship between humans and God is shared with the angelic beings. They are participants in that.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

And we see them participating in that. The angels and the stars. Well, yeah, same thing. But who are. Who are singing in Luke 2.

[Caller/Guest]

When.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Christ is born.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

It's not that they're this third thing who are cut out of, you know, like God, you know, they were the first draft and then humans. And God likes humans better.

[Caller/Guest]

Right?

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Like someone's family, I don't know whose I could be talking about where, you know, the mom just loves the second child more.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

I mean, it just. It's a thing, you know, that happens sometimes. Right. But that's not what we're talking about with God.

[Caller/Guest]

Yes.

Right, right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

God loves angels, just the angels he created just as much as the humans he created.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

That's not. It's not like. But again, different roles, different purposes, right? But angels are part of that community. They're not cut out from it. They're not separated from it unless they separate themselves from it.

[Caller/Guest]

Right?

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

So the devil falls through envy, meaning the devil wasn't happy with that role that he was given by God. And this is the story of rebellion sort of all through the scriptures.

[Caller/Guest]

Right?

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

And the story of sin as rebellion as a whole is God gives us a role to play. He makes us who we are and places us where he places us in history, in time, in space, and the family we're born into, Right. Gives us gifts, different gifts, right. Different places, different times, different. Right. All these things are different. And all these things are kind of given to us without our say so. And the core of sinful rebellion is being unhappy with that and wanting something else, wanting to be someone or something. We're not wanting to have some gift from God that He hasn't given us, not wanting the ones he has given us, not wanting to be where he has put us, wanting to be somewhere else. That's the core of rebellion.

[Caller/Guest]

Right?

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

But so angels are a part of that. And having this intermediary function is how they're part of that Love and part of that relationship.

[Caller/Guest]

Yeah.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

So again, they're not necessary in there. Yes. God knows he doesn't need an angel to tell him.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

To report to him.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

Yep.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Nonetheless, read your Bible, read Job.

[Caller/Guest]

Okay.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

It's very clear. Angels come and report things going on on earth to go all the way to. All the way to revelation.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

That'S there. We see angels bringing the prayers of the saints to God in Revelation post ascension.

[Caller/Guest]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Do they need to. Does God not know about the prayers of the saints unless they get brought to him in a bowl by an angel? Of course he does.

[Caller/Guest]

Yeah.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

But the angels are given this role and it's very clear, I mean abundantly clear in Second Temple Jewish literature that angels have this intercessory role. And in Second Temple literature, I'm including the Book of Revelation. These purposes, though it is canonical, it is also technically part of Second Temple literature. I mean, maybe technically not, because the temple was destroyed 25 years before it was written. Sorry, preterists, but you know what I mean. Now, within pre Christian Judaism and ongoing in Christianity, it's important that this idea that there are these intermediaries involved with prayer, with intercession. Right. With speaking to God on behalf of people in the world and what's going on in the world. This is in addition to. Not in place of the other.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

So it's not that the angels prayed for people so they didn't have to.

[Caller/Guest]

Yeah, yeah.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Or like they don't get in the way. That's a frequent criticism from some Protestants is like angels, you know, get, get. If you talk to an angel, it gets in the way between you and God as though there is. That's even a possibility.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

And this is. And the problem with asking the question.

[Caller/Guest]

Right, well, wait, Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

So I pray. God hears my prayer. God knows I pray.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Why does some angel or some glorified saint have to come and offer my prayer to God or double down on it or pray with me again? There's no have to. There's no have to. And if you're going to ask that question, you might as well ask, well, why pray at all? God already knows what I'm thinking and feeling. Why do I have to vocalize it? And why should I confess my sins to God or anybody else? God knows what I did. He knows about sins I didn't notice and forgot about or don't realize. God already knows, so why bother?

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah, I mean, the same argument can be used against prayer entirely. Like why pray at all between you.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

And God, why pray at all? Why confess sin at all?

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Right, yeah.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Even confessing it directly to God, why? He already knows.

[Caller/Guest]

Yeah.

Right.

Yep.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

But this idea, you know, I was having a discussion with, with an Orthodox Jewish person and they were trying to minimize. Because really, honestly, even in post Christian Jewish tradition, there's intercession of angels and saints, but he was trying to sort of minimize that part of the tradition and said to me, give me one example. He said, can you give me one example of Second Temple literature of saints and angels interceding for people? And I said, man, I can't think of a single Second Temple Jewish interpreter, or even later Jewish interpreter for that matter, who understands Rachel weeping for her children when Israel went into exile or when Judah went into exile as anything other than Rachel weeping for her children.

[Caller/Guest]

Yes.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Not some weird.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Who didn't take it literally. They all took that literally, that the spirit of Rachel, the Old Testament saint, was weeping, seeing her right before God, crying out to God over what was happening.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

And then St. Matthew, of course, applies that to the slaughter of the innocents. And I would therefore see no reason why Anyone would understand St. Matthew to be interpreting that any less literally.

[Caller/Guest]

Than.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

All the other Jewish interpreters living at the time. He did.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

So, yeah, this is just a thing.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Not because it's quote unquote necessary. But now when we talk about this, when we talk about angels are glorified saints interceding, the most common thing, the most common thing that people who oppose that idea or practice or just get the heebie jeebies from it.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

The most common verse that you hear in response is first Timothy 2, verse 5. And we're now going to tell you why you need to stop that.

[Caller/Guest]

Yeah.

Okay.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

1 Timothy 2, 5, which is depending on your translation, roughly, for there is one mediator between God and man, the man Christ Jesus.

[Caller/Guest]

Yes.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

It gets thrown out of.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

See, there's one mediator, nobody else. You don't need any of these people praying for you.

[Caller/Guest]

There's.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

That's never applied, by the way, to asking people in your church to pray for you.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Hey, there's one meter between God and man, you guys.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yeah, why are you asking me to pray for you? Why don't you pray directly to God?

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

You never hear that. But yeah, that's the verse you hear. Okay, so there should be a tip off to you because that word for in the translation at the beginning basically means. Because. So if you have a sentence here that begins with because it's not even really a sentence. It's a clause within a sentence. It's part of a sentence.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

So there's something, something, something, right. In First Timothy 2, 1, 4, something, something, something. Because there is one meteor between God and man, the man Christ Jesus. And the way it's quoted, you would think that the something, something, something in the first four verses is you don't need anyone to intercede for you.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

But lo and behold, when you go to 1 Timothy 2, verse 1, context, 1st Timothy 2, verse 1, to see the beginning of the sentence, the beginning of the sentences, St. Paul saying, I desire that intercessions be made for all men.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Wait, that can't be right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yes. And he enumerates your kings, rulers, princes. You should pray for everyone. Pray for everyone. Intercede for everyone before God. Because there is one mediator between God and man, the man Christ Jesus. So folks who quote that against the idea of intercession are abusing Scripture. You are abusing St. Paul. You are quoting St. Paul out of context. You are quoting the Bible, the scriptures out of context to say the exact opposite of what they are saying. That's why you need to stop it.

[Caller/Guest]

Yeah.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

It's because there's one mediator that you should do this. Interesting.

[Caller/Guest]

Yes.

Because.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

So you are literally trying to make the opposite point by quoting the Bible out of context.

[Caller/Guest]

Yeah.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Obviously the mediation that Jesus is doing is not.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Is a different kind of mediation than intercessory prayer.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Because mediation, the word mediation, it just means being in the middle between, you know, but it shouldn't be taken in an utterly literal way, right?

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Well, I think it is in a literal. Literal might not be the right word there.

[Caller/Guest]

Yeah, yeah.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

But like, you know, like, you shouldn't take the. You shouldn't take the image and push it to every possibility. So, like, if I, If I pray for you, I'm being a mediator, but that doesn't. And in that sense, I'm between you and God. But not in the sense of like, don't get me between me and Me and God. You know, like, I'm not cutting off access, just Jesus is not cutting off.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

It's in addition, not in place of. Yeah, yeah, yeah, like just. Yes, just like Christ. Does it cut off your access to the Father?

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Quite the opposite. But. So no, what St. Paul is talking about there with a mediation and then how that because works in this sentence.

[Caller/Guest]

Okay.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Any of those people who want to quote it the other way, explain to me how the because works in that sentence.

[Caller/Guest]

Okay.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Because I Can explain how that because works in that sentence, in that St. Paul's talking about the Incarnation. Christ mediates between God and man in his person.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah, he's both.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

And that's why it says there's one meteor between God and man, the man Christ Jesus. And so St. Paul has received this tradition of angelic intercession. He's a Jewish person in the first century A.D. they believe in this.

[Caller/Guest]

Okay.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

And he's saying because of who Christ is, because of the incarnation and the ascension. Now, human prayers and human intercessions.

[Caller/Guest]

Are.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

As powerful, if not more powerful, than angelic intercessions. That's the argument here. That's the. Because. Because of the Incarnation and the ascension and humanity being seated at the right hand of God. That's why St. Paul wants humans to pray and intercede for the whole world, for everyone in it, for all kinds of people. And the incarnation lies behind. As we were saying earlier. Call in Barderman. Incarnation lies behind. So much of St. Paul's theology. Just referring to Christians now as holy ones. Remember holy ones. That gets translated, saints in the New Testament and often not in the Old Testament. Holy ones is what's used to refer to angels in the Old Testament.

[Caller/Guest]

Yeah.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

And he refers to humans in the church by that title.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

So this is a connection between humans and angels that's being made and here that's being applied to intercessions. And the reason there's a parallel there between humans and angels is because of the incarnation of Christ through which humanity has been exalted even above angels, such that as St. Paul also said and we talked about earlier, we're going to judge them one day.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

So again, this intercession is not only is it not in place of right, it's in addition to, right, I ask someone to pray for me while I also pray.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

And the someone I ask to pray for me can be anyone who's alive, which includes the saints, right?

[Caller/Guest]

Yes.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

And angels. That's. Is it necessary? Okay, we're not saying necessary. Here's that efficiency thing. Rearing its ugly head again. I've used that. Rearing its ugly head. Rearing its hoary head again. Gotta vary it up a little.

[Caller/Guest]

Right?

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

That, that. And no one is saying that. Right. We all understand this. We all understand that. Like, you don't convince God by reaching a certain number of people praying for something.

[Caller/Guest]

Yes, yes.

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Like, we had one too few Facebook likes. So the kid died.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

We know that doesn't happen.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

God's not like counting. Okay, well, we've got 87 people praying for this now. If it hits 100, I guess I'll do it.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Like, that's not how this works.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

None of us thinks that you're going to, like, convince God by getting someone important or influential or a particular saint to pray for you.

[Caller/Guest]

Okay.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Like, well, if I could just get, you know, the Patriarch of Constantinople to pray for this for me or celebrity pastor or whomever.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

I think has God's favor this week or St. Oxentius to. If I could just get them to pray for this, then God will do it.

[Caller/Guest]

Right?

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

We don't think that.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

None of us think that.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Hopefully it's an expression of love for one another. It's an expression of love. It's a communion with each other.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

My parishes pray for each other.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Not because they think that, oh, well, you know, if they just pray themselves, God won't do it, but if we all pray, then God will. We don't think that.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

But that coming together and praying for each other and praying for the same things together is an expression of our love for each other.

[Caller/Guest]

Yeah.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

In fact, praying for someone really, sincerely praying for someone with some effort is one of the highest forms of love for that person. There's been this demeaning lately of, you know, thoughts and prayers and demean thoughts all you want.

[Caller/Guest]

Like, sure.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

You know, you were always on my mind, you know, nice Willie Nelson song, but who cares, Right. Just, you know, thinking it makes you cry at the, you know, animal shelter commercial. But anyway.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

So. So no, prayers do have values for the highest forms of love. But it is also true, some of the pushback against that thoughts and prayers thing does have a correct point in that that doesn't replace other forms of love.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Oh, this person needs help.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

This person needs a ride to the emergency room. I'm going to pray for him. I'm going to pray for him real hard tonight. That someone helps them.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

No, obviously.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

You also help the person.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Again, there's no reason to separate those two things.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Oh, I don't just pray about things. I actually go and do them and help people and make them happen. Or on the other side. Well, I pray for people. That's the most important. No, you do both. Por que de los dos? But actual intercessory prayer for someone is a beautiful expression of your love for them and will change how you view them and will change your relationship with them.

[Caller/Guest]

Yeah, yeah.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Won't necessarily get God to do what you want.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

I mean, that's not what prayer is anyway.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

I mean, one of the things I tell people a lot is especially if they're having a relationship problem with somebody, which, I mean, that's a lot of what confession is about. Right. Is, you know, are you earnestly, consistently praying for that person? Because if you're not, then you're like cutting your legs out from underneath yourself, you know, it's not gonna get better. Probably.

[Caller/Guest]

Yep.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

So in summary of the last two episodes, what has all this been about? Where has all this been going? Kind of nowhere, but I'm gonna try and put a bow on it anyway.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

What's all this?

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

What's all this then? And that's if we take all these things we've been talking about in the last two episodes and think about what does it mean for angels and demons to fight.

[Caller/Guest]

Yeah.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

We actually got a question in the Facebook group. I think it just came in through this morning, actually. Someone was saying that they had heard this idea that when natural disasters happen, you know, that earthquakes or big storms or hurricanes, whatever, that that's war in the heavenly realms, you know, Titan.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

I thought thunder was angels bowling, but.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

We should have an episode titled Angels Bowling. That's an idea.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

There we go. So, yeah, so sorry. Frank Peretti fans, he had the sort of Highlander version of. Of angel demon fights, right? Lots of big, heavy sword swinging and trying to decapitate each other. Because there could be only one. Which is cool. I mean, cool.

[Caller/Guest]

Yeah.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

You know, but who wants to live forever?

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Fun read. But, yeah. And Harry, your Cavill, you can't do everything, man. But again, not what we're not. What we're talking about, right? What we're talking about, honestly, right, Is what we've been talking about with the world of thoughts, right? The battle is really the battle for the mind. The battle is about what thoughts am I going to nurture and turn into ideas and what kind of ideas am I going to come up with and how am I going to try and implement them and use them in the world? And what am I going to bring about? What direction am I going to go, Right? Because the whole game for the demonic, whether we're talking about the devil himself or demons or whatever kind of demons or whatever that we talked about last episode, the whole end game for them is to destroy as much of humanity as they possibly can.

[Caller/Guest]

Right?

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Because as we talked about early on when we were talking about the fall of Satan in our very early episodes, right, the fall of the devil, this whole Miltonian thing of, oh, he's going to overthrow God and make himself God. And I'm like, oh, okay, what's step one to do that?

[Caller/Guest]

Yeah.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

You can't do. That's not a thing.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

This is not paganism.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

There's not a way to do that.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

It's not like God has God powers that you can seize with a cosmic siphon or something. That's Galactus and Dr. Doom.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Totally different thing.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

That's not how any of this works.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

You can't do that. The devil can't do that.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

The devil fell out of envy, envy of humanity. He can try and destroy humanity. He can try to destroy humans who God loves. That's his shot.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

And a great part of the story of scripture is that the lengths that God goes to to redeem and save humanity from that fate. So the battlefield between angels and demons is your mind, your heart, your thoughts. That's where spiritual warfare is happening. It's in terms of sin. It's in terms of your enslavement or your freedom regarding sin. It's in terms of how much you will yield to the demons or how much you will align your will and your work in the world with God.

[Caller/Guest]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

All of these things we've been talking about, this is what spiritual warfare is. This is where angels and demons are fighting. This is where you have to pick which side you're going to follow.

[Caller/Guest]

Right. And.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

The stakes are whether you live eternally or you perish. That's honestly it. And so in that regard, talking about demons in the last episode and angels in this episode, it's like Deuteronomy, right? Here is life and death, blessings and curses. Each of us has a choice to make, not just once, but over and over again through our lives as to which. Which one of those directions we're going to go and which of those we're going to receive. And those are pretty much my final thoughts. Oh, see what I did there?

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

That's great. I will add just a little bit. Yeah. I think, you know, in. In one of the things that's. That's said a lot these days and I think is true, I mean, based on my. My personal experiences with people, is that there is a growing sense of isolation and loneliness. And I'm not going to draw a straight dotted line from that back to this kind of flattening of the spiritual world that happens with the Reformation, where all the angels and saints are kind of pushed off to the side and it's just God up there and then us directly underneath him. But I do think that that theological outlook isn't helping and maybe is the context for some of this sense of isolation. You know, we've said since 2020 on this show that it's a crowded spiritual world. It's crowded out there. There's this whole, well, as scripture says, great cloud of witnesses, right? The angels, the saints who are present with us all the time. This is why someone like St. Anthony the Great or the other hermits and anchorites and ascetics, they go off to be alone. And indeed, you know the Greek word for them, Mona Chos, you know, monk, it refers to being alone, but they actually have a very strong sense of not being alone. So they're alone as far as the world is concerned, but they're not really alone because they are engaging with the spiritual world, the noetic world, to use the technical term. And so I, I believe very much that one of the things that can help us in this time of isolation and loneliness is to renew our sense, or maybe for many of us, begin having a sense of this, this crowded spiritual world, to engage with the angels and the saints by asking for their prayers, by asking for their help. And again, it's not instead of God, it's. It's in addition to your prayers to God. As Orthodox Christians, if you were to, like, add up all of the prayers that we say in terms of, like our private prayer, our liturgical prayers, or whatever the vast majority of them are, are directed, you know, directly towards God himself, Father, Son and Holy Spirit. And then we also have our prayers to the saints, to the angels, right? Just like for most Christians, the vast majority of your prayer is to God directly. And you also ask for your friends to pray for you when you ask for something, by the way, that is literally what prayer is. I mean, that's just what the English word prayer means in its most basic sense. And so it's for our spiritual health and in many cases, for our mental health, connecting with this larger community, the community in Christ that is both the seen and the unseen at the same time. I think it's just absolutely so, so vital for us. So that wraps up this episode of the Lord of Spirits podcast. Thank you very much for listening. Listening, everybody. This was not a live episode. We didn't. We pre recorded it, so we didn't take any calls. But we'd like to hear from you. You can email us at LordOfSpirits Ancient Faith.com you can message us at our Facebook page. You can leave us a [e-mail] LordOfSpirits and if you have basic questions about Orthodox Christianity or you need help in finding a parish, because that's critical, head over to orthodoxintro.org and join us for.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Our live broadcast on the second and fourth Thursdays of the month at 7pm Eastern, 4pm Pacific. It's fine. It's cool. You can say that we're nothing, but you know the truth.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

If you're on Facebook, you can follow our page, you can join our discussion group Super Active. Leave reviews and ratings everywhere and share this show with a friend or family member.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

And finally, be sure to go to ancientfaith.com stroke support and help make sure we and lots of other ancient AFR podcasters stay on the air. I guess I'm the fool with her arms out like an angel through the car sunroof.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Thank you, good night and God bless you all.

[Narrator]

You've been listening to the Lord of Spirits with Orthodox Christian priests, Father Andrew Stephen Damick and Father Stephen DeYoung, a listener supported presentation of Ancient Faith Radio. And I beheld and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders, and the number of them was 10,000 times 10,000 and thousands of thousands, saying with a loud voice, worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power and riches and wisdom and strength and honor and glory and Blessing. Revelation, chapter 5, verses 11 through 12.