Podcast Summary: The Magnificent Others with Billy Corgan

Episode: Conrad Flynn Part 2
Date: February 25, 2026
Host: Billy Corgan
Guest: Conrad Flynn

Episode Overview

In the second part of their conversation, Billy Corgan and writer Conrad Flynn explore the intersection of music, occultism, pop culture, and systems of power. They delve deeply into the creation and impact of avatars in public life, the mechanics of fame, occult influence in music, governmental interplay with celebrity culture, and the evolution of pop versus rock—connecting the dots between mass influence, ritual, and personal experience. The tone balances open-minded skepticism, first-hand stories, and incisive cultural critique.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Avatar and the Nature of Fame

• Avatars in Culture
  • The hosts discuss how public figures build “avatars”—identities separate from their true selves that are consumed and reinforced by audiences. Both agree this phenomenon is prevalent in music, film, professional sports, and politics.
  • Corgan: "What I attach to is it's the mechanics of getting people to buy into an avatar." (02:00)
• Historical Comparisons
  • Examples include Hulk Hogan/Terry Bolia, John Wayne/Marion Morrison, Lady Gaga, and more.
  • The process of becoming an avatar often leads to personal alienation and blurred boundaries between self and public persona.
• Public Demand for Avatars
  • Social and business incentives encourage celebrities to uphold these personas; deviation risks ostracization from the inner circle.
  • Flynn: "Other people's desire for you to be a thing can, of course, encourage you to be that." (09:34)

2. Wrestling, Pop Music, and Marketing

• Billy Corgan explains the parallels between pro wrestling and pop music in crafting larger-than-life personas to “work” the audience.
• Corgan: "Music seems to be behind this particular curve... people still want to believe that Lady Gaga is Lady Gaga all the time." (03:00)
• Both agree the "work" is more explicit in wrestling, but prevalent unseen in music and celebrity.

3. Secret Histories and Cyclical Pop Culture

• Conrad describes his Substack “The Flynn Effect,” where he tracks historical patterns like the parallels between Lennon’s political adoption by the New Left and Kanye West’s by factions of the New Right.
• Flynn: “There’s a picture of Abbie Hoffman where he looks exactly like Nick Fuentes... these countercultural things, they tend to repeat.” (06:53-07:29)

4. Power, the Occult, and Shadow Systems

• Rock & the Occult’s Secret History
  • Conrad relays stories, such as Jimmy Page’s acquisition of Aleister Crowley’s books and how prominent figures in British society often blurred lines between politics, occultism, and espionage.
  • Flynn: "The guy that Jimmy Page bought his Crowley books from was a famous labor member of Parliament named Tom Dreiberg... Crowley’s anointed successor." (23:43)
• Systems of Influence and Blackmail
  • Explains the real purpose of elite parties is less about hedonism, more about blackmail and control—relationships become assets and liabilities.
  • Flynn: "Those parties serve a very valuable purpose..." (29:24)
• Mutual Protection Among Elites
  • Both point to how scandals are sometimes contained due to a “gentleman’s agreement” to avoid mutually assured destruction, referencing cases like Jeffrey Epstein and Dennis Hastert.
  • Corgan: “There’s sort of a gentleman’s agreement... they’ll lob whatever mental hand grenades they want... but not those.” (31:33)

5. Conspiracy, Control, and Information Games

• Discuss how actual networks (powerful people across politics, media, and entertainment) operate more through informal connections and shared interests than overt conspiracy.
• Corgan: “Is it reasonable to think people actually run a particular business… they get calls or inferences from people above them in the power structure…?” (87:48)
• QAnon is described as counterintelligence—a diversion with a “kernel of truth” but designed to distract or misdirect, not expose real power structures.
• Corgan: “QAnon is a perfect example... sprinkled with enough kernels of truth that it would hold some fascination, but... to pull everyone away from something...” (32:16)

6. Pop, Occult Symbolism, and Systemic Trends

• Occult Imagery in Pop
  • The group debates how much occult symbolism in pop is sincere versus calculated marketing, but both agree it’s now omnipresent and complicated.
  • Flynn: "Some of them, I think, do it for real, but some know at this point that if you do put these symbols in videos, it's going to get eyeballs." (45:29)
• Marketing and Influence
  • Noted that young rappers today are highly literate in occult lore, referencing Manly P. Hall, Crowley, and sex magic.
  • Mentions the strategic “superstar push” in pop and rap (e.g., Kanye West, Sean Combs).
• Ham-fisted Symbolism
  • Corgan: “Most people are not operating in a sophisticated way when they deal with the symbiology. They’re doing kind of like Spooky 101.” (52:05)
• The Monkees as the Pop Prototype
  • Explores how groups like The Monkees became the model for pop acts and the commodification of authenticity in the music industry versus rock's disappearing cultural dominance.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Avatars:
  “I tried to create a clear delineation between my public and private personality when I was very young, and I continually ran into people who expressed overt and outward disappointment that I was not living up to the image they thought in their mind.” — Billy Corgan (09:45)

• On Exploitation and the Music Industry:
  “I see a system put in place in the last 20–25 years that was already there and existed in Hollywood, but it’s actually publicly commoditized now… And that, to me, is the heart of evil. Because what you’re doing is you’re giving people binary choices which aren’t binary choices at all.” — Billy Corgan (53:49)

• On the Occult’s Appeal:
  “They get into the occult, they do rituals, and it coincides with their success.” — Conrad Flynn (47:30)

• On Conspiracies & QAnon:
  “It was sprinkled with enough kernels of truth that it would hold some fascination, but it was not to get to any truth. It was actually to pull everyone away from something…” — Billy Corgan (32:25)

• On the Shift from Rock to Pop:
  “Rock has been purposely dialed down in the culture.” — Billy Corgan (61:54)

• On Navigating Fame:
  “The hardest thing for me, navigating the music business for over 30 years, is understanding you’re in a rigged game. And a sane person… goes, I’m not going to play the game anymore.” — Billy Corgan (83:16)

Important Timestamps

• 00:35 — Flynn welcomes the comparison to a double album for this two-part appearance; Corgan dives into the wrestling analogy for pop artistry.
• 01:52–03:00 — Deep exploration of avatar building; the story of Bob Dylan and Gorgeous George.
• 06:53 — Flynn details the cyclical adoption of pop avatars by political movements in history.
• 14:27 — Corgan on speaking universal truths, audience reaction, and the persistence of public avatars.
• 23:43 — “Granddaddy of all rock and occult stories”: Crowley, Dreiberg, Jimmy Page, and British intrigue.
• 31:46–32:16 — The QAnon analogy; how controversies are managed, and certain ones are off-limits.
• 45:29 — Occult symbols in pop: sincerity vs. marketing.
• 53:49 — The moral binary between innocence/exploitation at the heart of Hollywood and pop.
• 61:54–62:37 — The intentional sidelining of rock by industry/cultural forces and its replacement by pop and rap.
• 87:48 — Is it reasonable to believe “levers of power” shape the entertainment business?
• 89:30 — Flynn asks Corgan about the feeling of quasi-fascistic crowd energy as a performer.
• 91:14–95:05 — Corgan discusses rock concerts as shamanistic energy rituals, the power of music to alter consciousness, and responsibility as a performer.

Additional Topics

• Elite Social Ecosystems: Stories of Nantucket and Martha’s Vineyard as informal meeting grounds for American political, cultural, and business elites.
• Celebrity Meltdowns: Discussion of Kanye West’s rise and fall, handlers and handlers’ interests, and the system of moving stars up or down the influence pyramid.
• CIA and Music: Anecdotes about The Police’s Miles Copeland and alleged ties to government influence in music; the organic versus guided rise of musical acts.

Concluding Thoughts

Corgan and Flynn circle repeatedly back to the paradoxes and mechanisms of power—spiritual, psychological, and institutional—that shape the modern pop landscape. They invite listeners to question received narratives, pay attention to the industries and systems shaping stars, and offer a sliver of spiritual advice for artists trying to maintain their integrity: to ground oneself in something larger than fame or the system—whether that’s faith, love, or personal authenticity.

Next Episode Tease:
The conversation hints at exploring comedy's occult side (Del Close, L. Ron Hubbard, ritual in improv) for a potential third episode.