Daryl Hall, Part 1 | The Magnificent Others with Billy Corgan

Summary

The Magnificent Others with Billy Corgan

Episode: Daryl Hall, Part 1

Date: September 17, 2025
Host: Billy Corgan
Guest: Daryl Hall

Episode Overview

In this first part of his conversation with Daryl Hall, Billy Corgan explores Hall's musical upbringing, his deep roots in the Philadelphia music scene, and the evolution of his storied partnership with John Oates. This episode delves into Hall’s personal and professional journey before Hall & Oates' commercial breakthrough, with intimate discussions on songwriting, collaboration, soul influences, and the intricacies of creative compatibility. Hall reflects candidly on the joys and frustrations of his early career, the realities of genre-hopping, how the industry viewed him, and the enduring magic of Philadelphia's musical tradition.

---

Key Discussion Points and Insights

The Essence of Collaboration

• Collaboration as a Core Principle
  • Hall shares that throughout his career, collaboration has been central ("My whole career has been based on working with a partner." [01:04]) and explains his psychological affinity for creative partnership:

    "The truth is, I love collaboration. That’s my thing. [...] I like that interaction thing. I like what happens when you put two different people. [...] I don’t like it when it gets too many more people." — Daryl Hall [01:13]

  • He credits collaboration as the foundation for projects like "Live from Daryl’s House."
  • Hall notes the importance of chemistry in the studio, particularly with Dave Stewart (Eurythmics):

    "He’s like me. He likes to work with other people. He’s good at it. [...] We’re both very spontaneous people." — Daryl Hall [02:32]

Genre Fluidity and Industry Labels

• Movement Across Styles

  • Billy Corgan observes Hall’s effortless shifts across genres, comparing him to Elton John, David Bowie, and Billy Joel, yet notes Hall doesn't always get recognized for it [04:00].
  • Hall reflects:

    "Not earlier I didn’t, but I think now I am. I’m getting plenty of credit for it." — Daryl Hall [04:24]

  • Hall emphasizes that success in multiple genres is rooted in genuine love and encyclopedic knowledge of music, not trend-chasing [04:48].

• Critics and Labeling in the Early Days

  • Hall recounts struggles fitting into industry and critic-imposed boxes:

    "That was the golden age of critics... If you’re not playing that game, then they don’t know what you are. They don’t know how to label you." — Daryl Hall [05:19]

Roots in Philadelphia Soul

• Early Influence and Doo-Wop Roots

  • Hall describes his Philadelphia upbringing, absorbing R&B, doo-wop, and “baby food” soul as a street-corner singer [06:24].
  • He fondly recalls Philly icons and DJ Jerry Blavat who "played really old, like, R&B music, street corner music" [06:52].

• The "Blue-Eyed Soul" Label

  • Corgan recounts his personal history with Hall’s music and the family significance of "Sarah Smile" [07:33].
  • They discuss the "blue-eyed soul" term:

    "Because I think it’s racist. I mean, I’m a soul seeker, that’s all... I don’t like to put racial names." — Daryl Hall [08:42]

  • Corgan notes his father’s parallel view — that musicians played soul out of love, not mimicry or appropriation [08:53].

The Temp Tones and Early Success

• First Acts and Talent Shows

  • Hall recalls his first group, the Temptones, and performing at Temple University.
  • He details the formative moment of winning a talent contest at Philadelphia’s Uptown Theater, with the James Brown band as backing musicians [11:01–12:20].

    "I was oblivious to it. I just took it for granted." — Daryl Hall [12:33] "I did belong, and I felt like I belonged, so... Everybody treated me like I was part of the whole world." — Daryl Hall [12:53]

• Working with Gamble & Huff

  • Hall worked and learned at Sigma Sound Studios, observing legendary producers:

    "Kenny was a really good organizer, and Leon is a great piano player, musician... who can say what made them great? They were a great combination." — Daryl Hall [14:04]

  • He paints an intimate portrait of the Philly scene as locally grown, democratic, and collaborative [14:25].

Resistance to Psychedelia and Regional Identity

• Philadelphia’s Musical Insularity
  • Hall discusses Philadelphia’s resistance to 1960s psychedelic trends:

    "I had nothing to do with that shit." — Daryl Hall [15:45]
    "Philly was very resistant to all that stuff. They didn’t even like the Beatles in Philadelphia." — Daryl Hall [15:57]

  • Conversation on Philly’s inferiority complex versus New York and the unique creative culture it produces [16:08–16:38].

Origins of Hall & Oates

• Meeting John Oates

  • Hall and Oates met as students and roommates at Temple University, developing a musical partnership almost incidentally:

    "It was student stuff... It’s like college stuff. He’d sit there playing the guitar and I’d say, well, you sing along... and that developed into maybe we’ll try writing a couple songs together." — Daryl Hall [17:11]

  • Acknowledges their divergent tastes (Oates: country, folk, bluegrass; Hall: Philly soul) and the challenge of fusing them [18:26].

• Gulliver and Session Work

  • Hall explains that "Gulliver" was more an after-hours project among session musicians than a traditional band [19:08].
  • Notes brief connection with Elektra Records and meeting label impresario Jac Holzman [20:01].

Atlantic Records and the Early Hall & Oates Albums

• Atlantic Signing and Early Uncertainty

  • Hall describes the impact of signing to Atlantic and being around legends ("I was there, man, when, you know, in the rooms with Aretha and everything..." [21:04]), but reveals little awe—emphasizing a grounded attitude [21:15].
  • Atlantic was attracted by the singer-songwriter wave of the early '70s; Arif Mardin saw promise in the duo's college songs [21:58–22:22].

• The Producer’s Touch: Arif Mardin

  • Both Corgan and Hall gush about the late producer’s adaptability and genius:

    "He was a true, true gentleman... he was amazing. Another one who could work with anybody... he was so adaptive." — Daryl Hall [23:21]

  • Hall places Arif Mardin on par with Quincy Jones; Corgan shares a brief personal experience with Mardin [23:44].

• Creative Restlessness and the Search for Identity

  • Hall admits to still “searching for himself” on their first two Atlantic records, with the first album feeling like "a student aspiration album" [25:17].
  • Explains how he was trying to reconcile his Philadelphia soul roots with broader ambitions, often feeling transitional and unsettled [26:22].
  • Notes his early passivity ("I was being more passive. I was still looking for myself..." [26:15])—especially vocally—despite his later reputation as the principal vocalist.

The Shift to RCA and the First Major Hit

• Switch from Atlantic to RCA

  • Hall reveals that their move from Atlantic to RCA was less about being dropped and more about a strategic change, brokered by their management, with a deal secured before leaving Atlantic [31:10].

• Developing Solo Aspirations

  • Around the RCA transition, Hall began to consider solo opportunities, prompting new creative relationships (notably with King Crimson's Robert Fripp) [32:35].

• Commercial Breakthrough: "Sarah Smile"

  • Hall demystifies the myth that "Sarah Smile" was an intentional lead single—RCA initially released two John Oates songs first (Corgan remarks: "You're standing there in your prime... you're in a new situation and they start the new situation with two songs by the other guy. Very interesting." [34:31–35:09]).
  • It was grassroots R&B radio support in the Midwest that forced RCA’s hand:

    "It became an R&B hit." — Daryl Hall [35:39]
    "An R&B station... started playing 'Sarah Smile'... and it became an R&B hit... and then they put it on pop radio and it worked. But it started on R&B radio." — Daryl Hall [35:37–36:04]

  • Corgan closes the conversation promising that Part 2 will address Hall & Oates’ subsequent rise to stardom.

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments (with Timestamps)

• On effortless genre-hopping:

  "You gotta be able to do it. It’s as simple as that." — Daryl Hall [04:46]

• On Philadelphia Soul's roots:

  "If you lived in Philly and you’re a musician, I think you would move toward that. That was, yeah, that was baby food." — Daryl Hall [06:24]

• On being a 'blue-eyed soul' artist:

  "Because I think it’s racist. I mean, I’m a soul seeker, that’s all... I don’t like to put racial names." — Daryl Hall [08:42]

• On early success and taking things for granted:

  "I just could do it, you know? I mean, I always sang, you know, and I listened to that music." — Daryl Hall [10:18] "I was oblivious to it. I just took it for granted." — Daryl Hall [12:33]

• On 1960s psychedelic music:

  "I had nothing to do with that shit." — Daryl Hall [15:45]

• On John Oates’ influence:

  "He likes country music and he likes folk music and he likes bluegrass music. I didn’t know anything about that stuff and, and still don’t really. I like bluegrass, but that’s about it. [...] I think truthfully, we never matched it up." — Daryl Hall [18:38]

• On Arif Mardin:

  "He was so adaptive. He, he, it didn’t matter what you threw at him. He knew how to deal with it." — Daryl Hall [23:21]

• On Atlantic years and transition:

  "I was being more passive...I was still looking for myself." — Daryl Hall [26:15] "I think it was starting to become evident that there had to be a. Somebody driving the bus." — Daryl Hall [29:06]

• On RCA’s initial handling of singles:

  "They ran with John Oates twice and then they decided to go with Daryl, which is what I’m saying. I mean, we know how the story ends, which is why it’s funny, right?" — Billy Corgan [34:31]

• On "Sarah Smile" and real-world momentum:

  "And then they put it on pop radio and it worked. But it started on R&B radio." — Daryl Hall [36:04]

---

Key Timestamps for Reference

• [01:13] — Daryl Hall on his love for collaboration
• [02:32] — Hall on studio chemistry with Dave Stewart
• [04:24] — Hall on finally receiving recognition for his genre-jumping skills
• [06:24] — Hall on Philly’s musical influence
• [08:42] — Hall’s take on the “blue-eyed soul” label
• [12:33] — Hall on being oblivious to early star power moments
• [15:45] — Hall on resisting psychedelic trends
• [17:11] — Hall on developing partnership with Oates
• [25:17] — Hall on "student aspiration" of first album
• [29:06] — Hall on internal shift in the duo
• [31:10] — Hall on being managed out of Atlantic, new deal with RCA
• [35:37] — Hall describing organic R&B radio success of "Sarah Smile"
• [36:04] — "Sarah Smile" goes national on pop radio

---

Tone and Atmosphere

The conversation is candid, warm, and deeply knowledgeable, with Hall and Corgan displaying mutual respect as musicians. Hall’s responses are reflective, occasionally self-deprecating, and tinged with understated humor. Corgan’s tone is inquisitive, personal, and often confessional—offering his own stories and admiration in equal measure.

---

Preview for Part 2

The episode wraps on the verge of Hall & Oates’s ascent into superstar status—set for exploration in the next installment.

---

For newcomers and superfans alike, this episode offers a rare, granular look at the early career and creative convictions of Daryl Hall, peppered with stories of Philly street corners, music industry machinations, and soul’s enduring power.

Transcript

[A]

There's an effortlessness about it.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

That's always been.

[B]

I never. I never tried too hard.

[A]

You don't really have that. You've sort of just ignored all of it.

[B]

I didn't. Philly was very resistant to all that stuff. You know, they didn't even like the Beatles until it up.

[A]

Darrell, thank you so much for being on my podcast. It's a great honor. We're here in your beautiful home.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Undescribed, undisclosed. In wrestling, we say parts unknown.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So we're part. We're.

[B]

Unfortunately, it's easy to find where anybody lives these days, so.

[A]

That's true.

[B]

Whatever.

[A]

I've had my battles with Google. Google asking them to remove my name off of.

[B]

Good luck.

[A]

I want to start with your latest album, which is the D album. Work with Dave Stewart of Eurythmics fame. I know Dave a little bit. I was sort of interested because of your long history of working with different people. Do you like working with a partner? Is that something you sort of welcome? Yeah.

[B]

My whole career has been based on working with a partner.

[A]

Yeah. So I'm. But I'm asking for your. Because I didn't find a lot of information, like, let's call it from a psychological point of view, why you like working with a partner.

[B]

The truth is, I love collaboration. That's my thing. I don't know why. I mean, I'm perfectly capable and I do it all the time of writing songs on my own. That's not the issue at all. But I like that interaction thing. I like. Like what happens when you put two different people. Usually two different people. I don't like it when it gets too. Too many more people.

[A]

Too many cooks in the kitchen. Yeah.

[B]

Too many cooks. But how that. What happens when. When that chemistry comes together. And I really enjoy that. I mean, that's what. That's what the lfdh, you know, laughing Darrell's house show is based on. Is that kind of thing. That's what made me. One of the reasons that made me do it. And it's. And it's. It's sort of what I like to do with people. I mean, I like that songwriting team thing.

[A]

Yeah. I saw where you referred to Dave as your shadow partner. Is that a.

[B]

Well, he is. I mean, Dave and I have been working together since 1985. Yeah.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

I mean, we did an album, a complete album together, and then we've been doing one one off things over the years ever since then.

[A]

Yeah. I'm curious. As somebody, I've never worked With Dave, I know him. Like I said, I know him a little bit. But what is it about DAV in the studio? Because he's been such a successful collaborator with so many different great talents.

[B]

He's like me. He likes to work with other people. He. He's good at it. He and I. I can't speak for other people. We are both very spontaneous people. You know, he. He's extremely talented guy. His mind is going thousand, you know, per minute. And. And. And I. We don't waste any time, you know, we. It's just a. And sometimes we scrap it and sometimes we start over, you know, whatever. But there's always some kind of action going. Moves, moves, it moves. And. And I. I really hate that thing that when you're sitting with a. Somebody to write a song, everybody's kind of just sitting there, you know, thinking and thinking. And, you know, that's soul destroying that, that, that.

[A]

Is it partly the world that you grew up in, which really was based on that coming in a room and making magic happen in a matter of hours?

[B]

Yeah, I learned that. I learned that from the earliest, from Gamble and Huff and people like that.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And, you know, the Philly guys that. That I started with. And that was. Yeah, that's what we did.

[A]

In listening to your new record, I had this sort of revelation that I'd never had with you before. And I thought it was. It brought to mind something that's fair and unfair about you. About. Not you, but about how people perceive you, which is that I think you're in very rare company when I look at your generation. Elton John, David Bowie, Billy Joel, And I guess McCartney by extension, where you seem to move seamlessly between genres and styles, like, it's almost like effortless. There's a sort of joy with oscillating between different. But very few people are highly skilled at it and had great success with it. Yeah, but I feel like in a weird way, you never got credit like some of those other people did for being able to move that way.

[B]

Not earlier I didn't, but I think now I am. I'm getting plenty of credit for it.

[A]

Well, you deserve more. That's my point.

[B]

Well, thank you. But. But you know that all those people you mentioned, they're. They're very. They. They could move seamlessly in. Within the different genres, just like me. And first of all, it requires. You got to be able to do it. It's as simple as that.

[A]

But it also comes from a love of music.

[B]

Well, absolute a knowledge of music and almost encyclopedic knowledge of music. Yeah, you have to be, you have to be at home with all these different genres. You can't just like, fake it.

[A]

What were some of those who, who are some of the people? Not so much just that inspired, but you gave you that sense that rock and roll could, could really move into 3 60, you know. Cause I, I, I had similar things where people would question me, like, why are you not staying in one lane? And I always thought that's.

[B]

Well, that was, that was the, the biggest problem that I had in the early days because people couldn't understand or didn't want me to. Not was that was the golden age of critics.

[A]

You know, they're still there.

[B]

They're still there, but that was the golden age. And, you know, it's like, if you're not playing that game, then they don't know what you are. They don't know how to, they don't know how to label you. The old story, it's the oldest story music. But I just, I don't know, I like music. I listened to lots of listened. I don't listen to so much music now, but I listened to a lot of music and different ones. And I really, I know what I like.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And it doesn't matter about genre, but.

[A]

When you were growing up, was there a station that sort of, you know, because obviously. And I, I have a story I want to tell in a second. But obviously you have a great love for soul music and R and B, whatever we would call it now, it's, it's changed.

[B]

Yeah. But. Yeah. Yeah, I, well, I grew up with it. I mean, that's, baby.

[A]

Is it the, is that the kind of the Philly?

[B]

Yeah. If you lived in Philly and you're a musician, I think you would move toward that. That was, yeah, that was baby food.

[A]

Yeah. And also, can you name some of the bands that would.

[B]

Yeah, the Intruders and, you know, Jackie the Starlights, you know, all those kind of people. I, I started in the do op world. You know, I was a street corner singer and with various people, whoever happened to be around. And that's how I broke into whatever. And how I met people like Gable and Huff.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And all that kind of thing. It, it came directly from the street and, and I was interested in those days. There was a DJ called Jerry Blavitt in Philadelphia that played really old, like, R B music, street corner music, all that kind of thing. And I was a fool for that kind of stuff, you know. And then I moved seamlessly and the sound of Philadelphia is based on that. You know, it's all very vocal oriented and all that kind of thing. And so I moved right into the world world, you know, with Tommy Bell and Gable Huff and all those kind of people.

[A]

Yeah. So excuse me. My little story is my father was a musician. I talk about it all the time on my podcast, but, you know, a gigging musician, he never had any real success. But I remember there were always 45s around the house. So somewhere circa 1975 or so, I pick up a record, your record, Sarah Smile. And I have a very distinct memory of listening to that song for the first time and just being like, I didn't know what I was listening to, which is always, to me, the great revelation with music. Right. It's like I knew where it was coming from because my daddy liked that type of music. My dad only loved soul music, so I instantly understood where you were coming from. But I thought, wait, this is different. And my dad would sing your song because he had a similar voice to yours, more high and reedy than yours. But so hearing my daddy sing that song and having a personal connection to that song, I think it's interesting that we're, I, I can remember that moment, you know what I mean? And, and, and you, you really hit on something in that. Well, obviously in, in that moment. This is the template for your, your success. It's this. I know they call Blue Eyed soul or something. You know, it's a name I hate, but. Okay, tell me why you hate that name.

[B]

Because I think it's racist. I mean, I'm a soul seeker. That's all. I mean, I, I, I, I started as that. I don't know. I don't like to put racial names.

[A]

On, to be fair. My father felt the same way. You know what I mean? He had a great love of African American music, but he didn't see himself as the white guy playing in the black band. No, he was just like, we're all doing this music because we love.

[B]

Did you do any? Because then I think it felt right.

[A]

So when you say that, I, I feel that because that's the way I was raised too. Okay. The temp tones. I didn't know about the temp tones. I did do my, My temp tones deep dive.

[B]

That was, that was it. We reason we had that name is we were, we were all freshmen at Temple University. People used to think we got it from the Temptations, which, you know, they were my idols, of course, but that isn't where it came from.

[A]

Yeah, but.

[B]

So. So we. That we. Again, it was just. It's street corner stuff. We sang on the corner.

[A]

Well, what struck me in listening, it's Girl I Love you was the. The one single. Right. I mean, you do a pretty good Eddie Kendrickson whenever you were 18 years old.

[B]

Well, I was. I was still a sieve in those.

[A]

Days, you know, but what I'm saying. And not just anybody can do Eddie Kendricks. I mean, that's a very particular way of singing. And even.

[B]

Well, it's falsetto singing, as you know.

[A]

Even to sing with good pitch up in falsetto, that's a difficult thing to do. Most people couldn't do it. So it's all there. Even at. Whenever you were 18 years old, did you feel that? Did you see people reacting to you in that way?

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. But I took it for granted, I have to say.

[A]

Tell me how you took it for granted.

[B]

I just could do it, you know? I mean, I always sang, you know, and I listened to that music.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I mean, I knew that stuff from my earliest days, so that's how my voice developed.

[A]

Yeah. I don't want to say it was easy, but, I mean, did it come easy to you? Yeah, yeah.

[B]

Yes, it did.

[A]

Yeah. There's an effortlessness about it.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

That's always been.

[B]

I never. I never tried too hard.

[A]

So I'm jealous of people like you. It just. You open your mouth.

[B]

What am I saying?

[A]

Well, what I'm saying is I've. I've.

[B]

Your voice is like, sort of sometimes. Yeah. On the edge of falsetto, you know?

[A]

Yeah. That's where I like my voice best.

[B]

Yeah. No, I like. You sing very well that way.

[A]

Thank you. God bless you. So, you know, there's this night. I know you've told this story a thousand times, but I still think it's important to share here. You know, Uptown Theater. You guys win this talent contest?

[B]

Yeah. Yeah, it was. Yeah, it was.

[A]

The Delphonics were your competition.

[B]

No, it wasn't.

[A]

Blame the Internet.

[B]

It's funny stories get convoluted. I knew the Delphonics would. When we were teenagers because I. My girlfriend went to Overbrook High School, so. And they were overbook guys and. And so I knew them and they had a record out right before. Well, how do I put this? I was friends with Tommy Bell and he said, I got this group and I just. I just did this song, tell me what you think. And it was. It was called he don't really love you. And it was like. I thought at the time I thought was the greatest song I ever heard. It's like, forget about it. But that's not about the Uptown. Right around then, we were trying to figure out how to get a record deal. And. And. And so we. We. We did the old traditional thing. We did a talent show at the Uptown Theater. It was like being at the Apollo.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

The Philadelphia version and James Brown band backed us up.

[A]

So it was. It was at the. It was the earlier version, like the Clyde Stubblefield version. It wasn't the Bootsy Band yet, was it?

[B]

No, no, it was Maceo. And I mean.

[A]

I mean, for somebody who loves soul music, you must have been like.

[B]

I was. It's funny, I was oblivious to it. I just took it for granted. I.

[A]

You look back now, though, I go.

[B]

In the dressing room and see Smokey Robinson and go, hey, man, how you doing? You know, that's. That's the way it was. It was. I don't know what was the matter with me or how I didn't. How I didn't.

[A]

Did you feel like you belonged to.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

That's what it was.

[A]

Oh, you did.

[B]

I did belong, and I felt like I belonged, so. And they treat. Everybody treated me like I was part of the whole world. So I won. We won the contest. And Jimmy Bishop, which was. He was a DJ for WDAS in Philadelphia. He hooked me up. He was kind of trying to be my manager, and he hooked me up with Kenny and Leon and we did. Girl, I love you. Yeah, that was it. Yeah.

[A]

Is it true you worked for them a little bit as a studio musician and were part of session?

[B]

I used to work at the. I used to hang out and work at Sigma Sound.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Where all that stuff happened.

[A]

Was it just whoever was around?

[B]

Yeah, I was kind of on the B team. I wasn't, but I played with all those guys. I mean, I sat in rooms and played with them.

[A]

Yeah. What was it about Gamble and Huff? You know, I mean, they're legendary now and, you know, they're giving credit. Obviously they didn't do it alone, but they're giving credit as kind of creating what we know is the Philly sound, at least the popular version of it. What was it about them that you can tell us that made them so as producers, maybe is what I'm after.

[B]

Well, Kenny was a really good organizer, and Leon is a great piano player, musician. I mean, just great. And I mean, I learned so much from Leon. I just used to sit there and watch him. But. But who can say what made them great? They were a Great combination. They knew how to do it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And they, they, they picked good people that. They picked people just off the street, man. I mean, you know, they're early. They're early people like Barbara Mason and the Intruders and people like that. They were just guys that were, I mean, I worked at a clothing store with, with, with one of the guys who was the Intruders, you know, on Ridge Avenue. I mean, you know, it was. That's the people that they picked to do this, you know.

[A]

Well, it's, you know, Sachs has a similar story. You know, like Booker T. Live.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like a block away.

[B]

And that's what. I mean, Motown, too, even Motown. I mean, they pick people out of high school. Yeah, that's, that's how it worked. You know, it was.

[A]

Did you have a sense there was a sort of a magical thing happening, or was it just that was your world?

[B]

It was my world. I mean, I, I, I knew something good was happening, for sure. I mean, I, I love that.

[A]

And how did your parents perceive your musical aspirations?

[B]

My parents were both musicians too, so, so they, they were nothing but encouragement.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. Awesome. I'm curious because most of your generation suddenly gets, you know, it's the Summer of Love psychedelic. You seem to resist.

[B]

I had nothing to do with that shit.

[A]

That's what I'm asking. It's very rare, you know what I mean? Because usually somebody has some psychedelic fuzz drip single in the corner. You don't really have that. You sort of just ignored all of it.

[B]

I didn't. Philly was very resistant to all that stuff. You know, they didn't even like the Beatles in Philadel. It took him a while to figure that out.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, it's a very insular place. It still is. Philadelphia is a very insular town in every way, culturally, musically, everything.

[A]

Is that because it's sort of in the shadow of New York, you think?

[B]

I think that has a lot to do with it.

[A]

I found that in my own life, dealing with people from Philadelphia, they have this kind of New York thing. And Chicago has its own version of a New York thing. Because living in Chicago, all we ever hear about is New York.

[B]

It's a similar thing. There's an automatic chip on the shoulder.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Yeah. It's like. But it's funny because, well, New York is, is, is, is submissive, you know, dismissive of Philadelphia. And Philadelphia has the chip on their shoulder about it. You know, they try to be. They try to be New York, and they know they never will be.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It's that, that's sort of the premise of. Of Rocky.

[A]

Yeah. So you meet John Oates when you're both in college.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So we're both senior. He's a freshman.

[B]

Freshman in temple. Yeah.

[A]

So was there an immediate personal kinship? Immediate musical kinship. What was it about? What you're.

[B]

It was, it was student stuff. I mean, we, we became roommates because we both were slightly out of town. We needed a place to stay, so we got this, this apartment in Center City. And, and, and I knew that. Well, I actually, I met him at a. A show at the Delphi Ballroom. He had a. He had a band and I had the Temtones and I met him at this thing. And so we, we kind of knew each other sort of that way. And, and then we, we both needed roommates. We got together and we would sit there. He'd be sitting in a quarter playing the guitar. It's like college stuff. He'd sit there playing the guitar and I'd say, well, you sing along. You know, that kind of stuff. And, and that developed into maybe we. We'll try writing a couple songs together. Although we never really wrote a lot together and, but we would. I said, okay, let's perform together. So we, we had the, the duo thing, the two, the two guys. I played mostly piano, electric piano, and he played guitar. And, and we got a following going.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

In, in, in Philadelphia. Then we moved to New York.

[A]

Was the foundational idea with you too? Like, I'll do my songs, you do yours, we'll kind of work together. Was it. Was that the mindset.

[B]

We realized early on that we were. We had very different musical styles and it was hard. It was kind of my ability to put it together to, to make it sound like one thing.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because it was very disparate and, and he's always been that way. He likes country music and he likes folk music and he likes bluegrass music. I didn't know anything about that stuff and, and still don't really. I like bluegrass, but that's about it. And, and it was hard for me to match that all up. And I think truthfully, we never matched it up. We did variations of it.

[A]

We'll get there because I want us to take a slight detour. You end up in a band called Gulliver.

[B]

Well, that wasn't really a band. That was an after hours session.

[A]

So it was never a band.

[B]

No. Sigma gave us free time so we would play. We were all session musicians and we decided to put something together. It wasn't even really my idea.

[A]

I was just listening to the music. I didn't. There's not much of a footprint of you.

[B]

No, I. I was not really there.

[A]

You had the one single as a vocal, but, like, most of the record's not even you singing.

[B]

Yeah. I wasn't really there. I mean, in. In any creative way.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And. And then this guy, you know, reading.

[A]

It cold on a piece of paper, it's like, why did you go that direction? That's what I was. No, I get that. Because there were those weird records during those times where somebody would just throw around some money and be like, okay.

[B]

That'S what it was.

[A]

Okay. Did you ever. Any interactions then with Elektra and. And Jack Holtzman and.

[B]

I did. I. I like Jack Holtzman.

[A]

He's. He's such an interesting character in the history. You know, you look at who he signed.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, whether it's Tim Buckley or the Doors or.

[B]

Yeah. No, he was love and all that stuff. You know, I mean, he was. That was. I was. That was the best part of it is. Be. Is. Is I got to go and meet those guys. Or meet him. Sorry. Not meet those guys. Meet him during that period of time. That was quite cool.

[A]

Yeah. I sort of missed the age of the impresario. Right.

[B]

Yeah. Well, I went from him to Ahmet, so I was kind of like. I was still in that bag.

[A]

Yeah. So how do you end up getting. Well, I mean, I start here, and maybe I'm projecting on you, but, I mean, to be signed to Atlantic Records, knowing your love of. Of Blue Soul, R B. I mean, it must have blown your mind that they were interested in you.

[B]

It was, man. It was. It was a great.

[A]

That was as 1970.

[B]

70. No, 72.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

I was there, man, when, you know, in the rooms with Aretha and everything, and, I mean, Arif Martin.

[A]

Did that impress you? Did that get your attention?

[B]

Sorta.

[A]

Sorta.

[B]

But. But, but. But yet I didn't feel in awe of any of it. You know, I would meet these people and. And they were all just, you know, they were people.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And. And, you know, I remember Bob Dylan wandering in with this thing and just sit there in the corner like this. You know, that kind of crazy. And they were some interesting times. And. And there was amazing, you know, New York musicians, You know, they were.

[A]

So. You can give me the simple version if you want, but how is. What was Atlantic's interest in you with Oats? Like, what did. What do they see you as?

[B]

Well, they were. You know, that was. That. That was the Time. Excuse me. That was the time of the singer, songwriter, you know, 1972, think about it. You know, and, and I. We auditioned for. For Ahmet. And, and, and a brief.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And I sat there and played the piano and played those or whatever songs we had compiled in college.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And, and, and Arif saw something. I don't know, whatever he saw, and he said, let's, let's go. And, and he's amazing. I mean, I love to be.

[A]

I have my own brief story if you want to hear it.

[B]

Go.

[A]

So in the, in the mid-90s, they came to me, said, they want you. They want us to be on a charity record for Special Olympics. And they said, you know, give you. It's Christmas and so we'll give you some money. You can work with whoever you want to. And I said, I want to work with Arif Mardine. And I met Arif. I talked to him on the phone, but I met him for the first time in the session suit. That old school vibe.

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

And I. This is the only time I've ever done this in my whole life. I said, you tell me what to do. You produce me. I just want to. I'm just going to be the artist you produce. And he did this beautiful job. Did the string arrangement. Everything was. What a pleasure. And of course, I got to hear some of the great stories about working with Bee Gees and stuff like that, but what a.

[B]

He was a true, true gentleman. Right in the very old school, you know, awesome. Yeah, yeah, he, he was amazing. Another one who could work with anybody. For you to say, do whatever you want with me, that's not usually what he liked to do. He liked to. He, he. He was so adaptive. He, he. It didn't matter what you threw at him. He knew how to deal with it.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

You know, he, he was, he would produce. Well, okay, in, in succession. He produced you're so Vain, then Amanda Lachenette from. From Me, and then the next, a week later, started Average White Band and produced who was the other guy? He just died. Oh, never mind. Anyway, but all these different. He would just go seamlessly. And then young, gifted, and black. In the middle of it all, he could just do anything. And he was like Quincy, you know, I mean, I equate him with Quincy.

[A]

Yeah. I still am amazed I got to work with him. It's like it stands out as one of those beautiful moments in my life.

[B]

You were a lucky guy, man. I was a lucky guy.

[A]

I'm glad we share that because most people wouldn't know who Reef is.

[B]

I know he didn't get. He didn't get the publicity that like, Q got and all that, but, but man, he was, he was something.

[A]

So I know you said this was the time of the, of the, of, you know, singer, songwriter, duo. Was, was. Did you have a different aspiration than that or were you sort of like, this is what people are into? I'm, I'm sort of curious.

[B]

It was kind of what people were into. Yeah.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But I was trying to. To me, it was all transitional. I was always moving. I wanted to get out of that time and move.

[A]

Yeah. Because I was struck listening to the. Especially the first album that you guys did for Atlantic. It's a bit anodyne. Very.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

More polished. And I know you like your gut bucket R B. So I was, it sort of surprised me.

[B]

It was, I, I, that was, that was sort of a student aspiration album. Like trying to be something different than what you really are.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

I think that's a typical thing that college kids do. You know, they want to expand from what they, what they, what, you know, what they really are and what they did. You might want to be.

[A]

But at that early stage, you know, obviously your major label, it's Atlantic. I mean, it's the whole impri. Of the whole thing. What was your hope for it?

[B]

I didn't really know. I wasn't sure. I think I was too young to have. I certainly didn't have a master plan other than to move through it.

[A]

Yeah. I'm struck because, you know, vocally, it would kind of go back and forth. You know, to me, is not the strong. Your part former partner is not the strongest singer. As a lead singer, you know, I was surprised there wasn't more focus on you as, as the singer because you have, you know.

[B]

Well, I, I was being more passive.

[A]

You're trying to be team player.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. Pretty much.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I, I was, I was still looking for myself, you know, I, I, I, I knew I knew what I was. I knew I felt comfortable, as we talked about before, in being that person, that Philly guy in, in that world. But I was trying to figure out how to go outside of that. And it's a big. I don't know what. Realize something else, you know?

[A]

Yeah. And when you get in that bigger world, you really do feel that.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

Like you go to London or something. It's like, wow, this is a whole other trip over here.

[B]

Yeah. So I was, I was like scrambling around and creatively.

[A]

Yeah. So first album does not great. Is that, is that fair to say?

[B]

Yes. I'm kind of glad because. No, not that people know about it.

[A]

No. But I mean, you know, I mean, it's nice sometimes to tell a story knowing that the, that the end result of the toil is success, you know, so you can look at that sort of in a rosy way and say, well, it didn't work, but maybe there was a reason and maybe it's a good thing because we went this other direction.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And again, second album, you know, it seems like there's still some search for something Arif's producing.

[B]

Yeah. But that I would call that a success. People still talk about that album.

[A]

Well, and I have your first kind of breakout moment.

[B]

Yeah, but beside the, the hit, you know, which wasn't a hit even then, but, but people still talk about that album as, as light as, you know.

[A]

How do they quantify it, you think.

[B]

They, they say that they, it would, I don't know, people get emotional about it.

[A]

Head of its time or they just.

[B]

Say it was, it signified a time in their life. You know, the kind of things people.

[A]

Yeah, well, certain records crystallize a moment. Yeah. Summer.

[B]

Yeah. But it had, it influenced a lot of people. I mean, I, I was told, you know, various musicians over the years that it, that it influenced them and really inspired them, you know, all that kind of stuff. But I mean, I think that it was a good album and, and I, I, I think there was glimmers of what I was trying to do in that album. I think the song Abandoned Luncheonette is a particularly cool song.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But again, I look at it as transitional.

[A]

Okay. Was there because you had some traction finally with She's Gone. Obviously you're the, you're the lead on that. Was there some feeling there that the, the energy should kind of shift more towards you as a focus? Or was it this idea again of the.

[B]

I think it was, I think it was starting to become evident that there had to be a. Somebody driving the bus.

[A]

How did that work internally?

[B]

Not, not really sure.

[A]

I think I had my own versions of these things.

[B]

That's why I think, I think what's happened in the, in more recent times is as a result of it.

[A]

Okay. So, yeah, there's, there's a seed there where it's like, I thought we were one thing and now we're another. And, and in my position. And again, you tell me what's different for you? My position. I was like, well, I'm not responsible for the way the people are reacting. To what we're doing.

[B]

Exactly, exactly.

[A]

Don't we want to lean towards where of energy is?

[B]

I said, if you can keep up, keep up.

[A]

Otherwise you're ringing bells in my head over here. So, third album. What was the vibe in Atlantic on the third album? Because, you know, the end of the stories, you had guys end up getting drunk. But what was the vibe going into the third album?

[B]

That album was weird, I gotta say. I mean, you know, objectively, it was. I mean, I did it with Todd. Yeah. Todd Rungren. And when I say I did it, I pretty much did that album that was. That was the beginning. Said, okay, I'm driving the bus. But I didn't even where the bus was going. And. And. And. And it became a very strange album.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And what was that?

[A]

Was there something you were trying to do?

[B]

I think it was. I had just really settled into New York City and I was being influenced by. By the cacophony and the. The chaos.

[A]

It was a bit more glam.

[B]

Yeah. And all that stuff was going on. Yeah, it was. That's the period of time. And. And Todd, of course, Todd being pretty out there at the time. And.

[A]

And we.

[B]

We concocted that album and Atlantic didn't understand it, you know, I mean, as simple as that.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So that was. That was when I think they. I don't know, I think it was really business things. I think it was my manager, Mottola, that really moved me away from Atlantic. I think. Otherwise, I might have stayed there anyway.

[A]

Okay. So it wasn't so much them getting dropped. It was like, kind of like, we need to part ways. When they did drop you, two questions. One, how did you take that? Did you see it was a good thing because now you can go find somebody who's interested or. And then secondly, did you think, okay, this partnership's not working the way that.

[B]

I thought the part? Well, you want the truth? I knew the partnership wasn't working around that.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yes, I knew that. I knew that we were not heading in the same direction creatively or whatever. And. But we had a deal with RCA even before we left. Oh, I didn't know that. So there wasn't really being dropped. It was just like, okay, we leave here, we go there. There was no period where we were. Like, we weren't homeless, you know, did.

[A]

You have a moment where you thought, okay, I need to go on my own here, or kind of put together my own thing, or.

[B]

I think I was. I think that maybe I felt like I needed. I agreed that maybe it was A time to try a fresh place.

[A]

Okay. Yeah. Right. So I'm just. Because I'm still confused. So did you have a feeling that you should go solo there or did you. Do you think, okay, well, we got the deal. It ain't broke, don't fix it. Keep going and just keep moving forward. Kind of like you said, my focus was just on and always movement.

[B]

I can't remember when I finally decided it was around that time, actually. I'm really thinking about it. I met Robert Fripp and It was around 1974. Yeah, it was then. And Robert and I became friends and that was the first time that I started feeling spark of kindred spirit, creativity, that I wanted to move and move away and work with somebody different. Completely different. And so eventually I wound up working with Robert and that got. And those plans got scotched for various other reasons, you know.

[A]

Yeah. So, okay, you're on RCA now. Obviously, it was a different record business then, but did you feel any particular pressure? Because now you're in a new situation and now you have to kind of prove something. I.

[B]

I never was a person who felt particular pressure. I just felt like I'm doing it and. And let. Let the chips. Let the chips fall.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

You know, and I got. I won't say I got lucky or whatever it was, but I wrote Sarah Smile and. And. And that.

[A]

You're jumping ahead on my story.

[B]

No, but that was the first. That was the first song on rca.

[A]

Yeah, but, you know, there were two singles before that.

[B]

They were so.

[A]

Again, because I'm. So.

[B]

You remember things I forgot.

[A]

Well, trust me, I. I mean, I've. You know, I spent three hours this morning doing a deep dive on your. On your life.

[B]

I don't even remember which one the first singles were.

[A]

Okay, I got it right here. Tell me, is it spelled Carmelia?

[B]

Camellia.

[A]

Camellia. Sorry.

[B]

That was an Oats.

[A]

That was the first single.

[B]

That was an Oats song. Song.

[A]

Okay. Second single, alone. Too long.

[B]

An Oats song they ran with John Oates twice and then they decided to.

[A]

Go with Daryl, which is what I'm saying. I mean, we know how the story ends, which is why it's funny, Right? And again, not casting Shade. It's just the music business is whorish about selling records. It hasn't changed. It's just digital numbers now. But a point is, you're standing there in your prime. You've already had a charting single, the only charting single the duo has ever had. You're in a new situation and they start the new situation with two songs by the other guy.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Very interesting.

[B]

Very interesting.

[A]

Were there political forces at play?

[B]

I haven't a clue. I. I never. Truthfully, I never thought about it.

[A]

Wow. But I would.

[B]

Now I'm realizing I don't. You know, it's. I can't put myself back in that place. But. But you know what happened is that an R and B station in. I won't say Akron, but it was someplace somewhere over there, I'll say Akron. It wasn't. Akron started playing Sarah Smile.

[A]

Oh. So it was one of those things like an organic.

[B]

And it became an R and B hit.

[A]

So they didn't even release it as a single song.

[B]

Rca, they weren't even paying any attention to it. And the local promotion guy that worked the R and B stations said, you know, people are playing this song in the Midwest and it's kind of breaking out of Ohio. And RCA went, oh, okay, well, maybe we'll try this.

[A]

I mean, it's a stone cold classic.

[B]

And then they put it on pop radio and it worked. But it started on R and B.

[A]

Radio number four nationally. And then. Well, we'll save that for part two of our interview. But what's funny about that is, you know, that's, you know, so while you're having that moment in your life, I'm in a cold basement in Chicago listening to you. You know what I mean? So it's kind of a funny thing. Yeah. I think that's part one. So you gotta stay tuned for part two, all right. Where we get to all the really good stuff.

[B]

Oh, I wonder what that's gonna.