Daryl Hall, Part 2 | The Magnificent Others with Billy Corgan

Summary

Podcast Summary

The Magnificent Others with Billy Corgan

Episode: Daryl Hall, Part 2
Date: September 24, 2025

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Episode Overview

In Part 2 of this candid, in-depth conversation, host Billy Corgan sits down with legendary singer-songwriter Daryl Hall to unpack the extraordinary highs and underlying challenges of a career at the heart of pop and rock history. The episode focuses on Hall's philosophy of hit-making, his resistance to industry pressures, creative partnerships (especially with John Oates and Sarah Allen), the defining impact of "Live From Daryl’s House," and the personal aftermath of the split and recent legal conflicts with Oates. It is a reflective, often vulnerable look at Daryl Hall’s journey through fame, creative fulfillment, and self-actualization.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Early Hit-Making Philosophy & Record Industry Realities

[00:05–01:15]

• Daryl Hall shares his unique approach to creating hits:
  • "My philosophy is don't think about it." [00:14]
• Hall reflects on the unpredictability of pop success and the arbitrariness of the label system, referencing the reissue of "She's Gone" and the cover by Tavares.
  • On initial success, Hall says:
    • "Sure, I wasn't complaining... you screwed it up the first time, so try and do it right the second time." [00:53]
• He describes the whirlwind of performing with acts like David Bowie and Stevie Wonder, recalling Bowie’s second-ever US show:
  • "It blew my mind, to tell you the truth." [02:48]

Hall's Notion of "Hits" and Industry Pressure

[03:40–05:16]

• Hall insists he can't predict what will be a hit and often finds commercial performance surprising.
  • "If I have a philosophy, it's that I don't know what hit is. I'm always surprised if something is successful commercially or not." [03:40]
• On resisting music trends even when industry insiders, like Tommy Mottola, pressured him toward certain styles:
  • "I always used to get... Tommy Mottola pressure, you know... It would be very good if you would stop playing the guitar songs, stay with the piano..." [05:16]

The Making of "Rich Girl" and Loyalty vs. Solo Ambitions

[05:54–08:22]

• Hall recounts the real-life story that inspired "Rich Girl," rooted in Sarah Allen’s college boyfriend:
  • "He was acting pretty crazy... I went, man, he's a rich boy, but he's gone too far. That's about as far as I got. And then I said, no, that don't sound right. So I changed it to Rich Girl and then finished the song." [06:44]
• Though encouraged to go solo, his loyalty to partnerships (notably with Robert Fripp and John Oates) was both a strength and regret:
  • "I am, actually. I mean, I do consider myself very loyal and to a fault sometimes... I got so much pushback from my manager... and the record company. It just made it impossible. They sabotaged it." [07:37, 08:10]

The '80s Pivot, MTV Fame, and Pressures of Success

[10:24–15:53]

• Transitioning into the 1980s, Hall describes evolution as organic—the result of self-production and English influences, not strategic reinvention.
  • "It wasn't a decision. It was the fact that we were producing ourselves... I had been spending most of my time in England." [11:08]
• On success and MTV's seismic impact:
  • "We were dominating that... whole network. I mean, I was a guest DJ all the time. VJ all the time. And, you know, they just give us five hours to do whatever you want, that kind of stuff." [13:30]
• Hall clarifies that massive fame was isolating and unfulfilling for him:
  • "I didn't find it that pleasant because that wasn't my motivation... I couldn't go out of the house. I had people bothered me all the time... And I didn't like it." [14:26]

Partnership with Oates & the Business “Glass Ceiling”

[16:32–19:18]

• Hall addresses the oddity that, despite having hits rivaling peers like Billy Joel, he and Oates were kept from playing stadiums, trapped by management decisions:
  • "Why were you staying in Holiday Inns and playing high schools when you should been playing stadiums?" [16:32]
  • "The math kicked in. Everything kicked in. But I was trapped, okay? I was literally trapped in... a world where... my business world was on the other side." [17:58]
• On being gaslit and kept dependent by business forces:
  • "There would always be some reason why the money was... Money's tight, you know..." [18:32]

Artistic Golden Ages and Adaptation

[19:48–20:24]

• Hall corrects a misattributed quote about the end of a "golden age," clarifying that eras—not individuals—have their creative peaks. Yet he acknowledges the shift of relevance toward 1990:
  • "My period as a quote, pop star... wound down around 1990, but then else kicked in." [19:48–20:07]
  • "Now I think that I might end that now because... pop music is bigger than it ever was now. But it's a different kind." [20:16]

On Creative Partnerships: Allen, Oates, and Definitions of Identity

[20:39–25:32]

• Hall highlights Sarah Allen's (and her sister's) profound influence on Hall & Oates’ hits—emphasizing the complexity of songwriting credits and collaboration:
  • "A lot of the best songs in that period of time were written by the three of us... Kiss on My List was... a real collaboration. And with Private Eyes... she brought Private Eyes to the table..." [21:22–21:40]
• Hall admits the flexibility in his creative life and resists being defined solely by famous partnerships:
  • "When I'm on stage, I'm the focal point... when I'm creating, sometimes I have partners... sometimes I don't. It's flexible." [23:09]
  • "I guess I'm not creatively monogamous." [25:20]

"Live From Daryl’s House": Motivation and Musical Community

[25:32–28:36]

• Hall explains the genesis and spiritual core of "Live From Daryl's House":
  • "Instead of traveling the world, why don't I do something where the world comes to me... Instead of having an audience... just have a good time." [25:54]
  • On spontaneity: "I want them to know how spontaneous it really is and how good my band is. They're outrageous, man." [27:32]
  • Story of playing King Crimson’s "Red" with Robert Fripp on almost no rehearsal:
    • "We did it in 10 minutes." [28:22]

Legacy, Touring, the Pandemic, and the Split with Oates

[29:37–33:25]

• A marked change in Hall & Oates’ post-pandemic touring signaled the end of the era, with Oates opting for Nashville and new pursuits:
  • "Anything, any of all those kind of underlying resentments or desires to go off on their own... the pandemic... definitely was the catalyst for us to go in different directions." [30:29]
  • "It was his idea... He wanted to go off and live in Nashville and do whatever the hell he does." [31:11]
• On their legacy, Hall is humble, dismissing all-time rankings:
  • "It's flattering. I don't think it means anything." [32:02]

Regrets and Personal Growth

[33:25–35:07]

• Hall acknowledges he wouldn’t repeat several choices in his career due to misplaced trust:
  • "I would have done it differently... I listened to the wrong people for way too long. I allowed myself to get wrapped up in..." [33:26]
• Corgan observes that "Live From Daryl’s House" revealed new sides of Hall’s personality to the public, a key reason for its creation:
  • "People didn't know who I was... I felt like people didn't know what my motivations were, who I was, what kind of person I was." [34:13]

The Legal Rift with John Oates

[35:07–39:19]

• Hall clarifies public confusion over the legal conflict with Oates, emphasizing it was about a restraining order—not a lawsuit—over Oates’ attempt to sell Hall & Oates’ shared company without notification.
  • "[He] tried to sell the company without telling me... I don't know why he did what he did." [35:53, 36:02, 36:44]
  • Hall expresses sadness and shock at how the partnership ended:
    • "There was a lot of things. It was again, after the pandemic, I felt like I was dealing with a different person." [36:16]
    • "I can just say I gave him a hell of a lot, you know." [36:32]
  • Corgan sums up the public confusion and reiterates that Hall did not “throw Oates out,” countering some rumors.

Present Joy, Creative Renewal, and Acceptance

[39:28–42:34]

• Hall celebrates his new album and partnership with Dave (Stewart):
  • "It's an album of joy and... it was cathartic... really musically successful. It showed what great... partnership Dave and I have." [39:44]
• Hall’s ongoing musical enthusiasm, even in later life:
  • "No, I'm hanging out with the ghosts!" [40:24]
• On letting others interpret his legacy and contributions as they will:
  • "They can think what they want to think." [41:19]
• Daryl expresses that only with "Live From Daryl’s House" did he feel he truly emerged as himself to the world:
  • "I became really me when I started doing the series, the Live From Darrell's House series." [42:34]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Daryl Hall on creative philosophy:
  • "If I have a philosophy, it's that I don't know what hit is. I'm always surprised if something is successful commercially or not." [03:40]
• On loyalty vs. going solo:
  • "I am, actually. I mean, I do consider myself very loyal and to a fault sometimes." [07:37]
• On the music industry’s pressures:
  • "I always used to get... Tommy Mottola pressure... it would be very good if you would stop playing the guitar songs, stay with the piano..." [05:16]
• On the end of Hall & Oates:
  • "It was his idea. He wanted to go off and live in Nashville and do whatever the hell he does." [31:11]
• On regret:
  • "There's many things I would have done differently... I listened to the wrong people for way too long." [33:26]
• On his real motivation for "Live From Daryl’s House":
  • "I felt like people didn't know what my motivations were, who I was, what kind of person I was." [34:13]
• On his current creative life:
  • "It's an album of joy and, and it. It was cathartic... showed what great, a great partnership Dave and I have, what a real, really good partnership can be." [39:44]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Hall's outlook on hit-making & creative pressure: [00:14], [03:40], [05:16]
• Origins of "Rich Girl": [06:11–07:06]
• Decision not to go solo & partnership with Robert Fripp: [07:37–09:33]
• Pivot to 80s sound & self-production: [10:24–11:49]
• Unpleasantness of celebrity & MTV era: [13:23–15:09]
• Business traps & touring limitations: [16:32–18:40]
• Sarah Allen and songwriting collaborations: [21:22–22:37]
• Creative non-monogamy and partnerships: [23:09–25:32]
• The spirit of "Live From Daryl’s House": [25:54–28:36]
• Impact of pandemic on Hall & Oates: [29:37–31:16]
• Legal dispute with Oates clarified: [35:07–39:19]
• Hall’s post-split musical renewal: [39:44–40:54]
• Feeling finally seen & self-actualization: [34:13], [42:34]

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Conclusion

This episode delivers a revealing look at Daryl Hall as both a creative force and a survivor of the music industry's mercurial winds. With unguarded stories about loyalty, regret, creative partnerships, artistic independence, and hard-won self-awareness, Hall and Corgan lay bare the costs and rewards of a life spent in music. For fans and newcomers alike, it is as much about the lessons learned as the hits made.

Transcript

[Daryl Hall]

When I'm on stage, I'm the focal point, and that's what. That's what I do.

[Interviewer]

Because you've been such a successful hit maker, do you have a particular philosophy about making hits? Because, again, your ability to move through.

[Daryl Hall]

Genres, you know, my philosophy is don't think about it.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Daryl Hall]

I worked with. We opened for everybody from David Bowie to Billy Paul and Stevie Wonder. I mean, go on and on and on.

[Interviewer]

So only in the record business does your old label release a song that you had before to capitalize on your success with the other label that you're now signed to.

[Daryl Hall]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

And of course, we're talking about She's Gone.

[Daryl Hall]

Right.

[Interviewer]

Which they reissue becomes, I think, number seven.

[Daryl Hall]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

You must have been like, okay, like.

[Daryl Hall]

Sure, I wasn't complaining. Right. I just thought, well, okay, you screwed it up the first time, so try and do it right the second time.

[Interviewer]

Yeah. And of course, it's. It's a classic now, which is funny how those things work, you know.

[Daryl Hall]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

How long. How much after that kind of was reissued, did Tavares do their cover, which was also a hit? Number one R&B.

[Daryl Hall]

I'm not. I. I'm.

[Interviewer]

My brain.

[Daryl Hall]

I'm. I'm. I'm forgetting what came out first. Tavares. Tavares did it, but I'm. I don't know if they did it before. Before.

[Interviewer]

Before the re. Release.

[Daryl Hall]

I think Tavares did it and then we. Then ours was.

[Interviewer]

Because their version's great, too.

[Daryl Hall]

Yeah. Yeah. That was good.

[Interviewer]

Yeah. Really cool. I'm curious because. Okay. Now you're having your first true success. You've got two hit singles. I mean, for people like us, it's like, wow. I mean, it's two hit singles. It's actually happening. I'm that guy. Right. What was your personal life like then?

[Daryl Hall]

It was. Well, I was still. I was. I was living in the Village in New York and with Sarah Allen and. And I was on the road a lot.

[Interviewer]

Right. You know, you're doing those package tours where it's like, you guys.

[Daryl Hall]

I was playing with everybody, man. We. I was. I worked with. We. We opened for everybody from David Bowie to. To Billy Paul and. And Stevie Wonder. I mean, go on and on. Cheech and Chong.

[Interviewer]

Wow.

[Daryl Hall]

No, we didn't open. No, they open for us.

[Interviewer]

Yeah. How'd you get on with Bowie? He must. He might. I don't know. I knew David. I must have loved what you were doing.

[Daryl Hall]

Yeah, I was. This was too early to. He. He was. This was the second show he played in the United States.

[Interviewer]

Is this Ziggy Stardust time?

[Daryl Hall]

Yeah, this was, this is the first Ziggy thing.

[Interviewer]

Okay.

[Daryl Hall]

And it was in Memphis, Tennessee, and I, it blew my mind, to tell you the truth. And, but his.

[Interviewer]

Oh, he's so good.

[Daryl Hall]

But, I mean, you know, he was, they were treating him like he was. I don't know what the, you know, they would carry him around and it was hell.

[Interviewer]

It was, it was. Well, that's when he was with Tony DeFreeze.

[Daryl Hall]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

All that Tony Freeze was charging him 50, putting him in limos and bankrupting him. So everyone.

[Daryl Hall]

That whole Tony defries situation, oh, man, it was. He had these guys in karate suits walking around. I mean, it was, it was stupid. But, you know, I love David, man. I mean.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Daryl Hall]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

I'm curious because I don't think there's any information that I saw. Because you've been such a successful hit maker, do you have a particular philosophy about making hits? Because, again, your ability to move through genres.

[Daryl Hall]

If I have a philosophy, it's that I don't know what hit is.

[Interviewer]

Okay.

[Daryl Hall]

I am always surprised if something is successful commercially or not.

[Interviewer]

So you wouldn't fall into the trap of thinking, okay, this one's going to be hit.

[Daryl Hall]

I mean, I, I sometimes I think it's going to happen and it doesn't happen at all.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Daryl Hall]

You know?

[Interviewer]

Yeah. Sometimes I say to my fans, you know, if I knew how to recreate it, I would, you know.

[Daryl Hall]

Oh, yeah. They always say, what's your formula?

[Interviewer]

Are you kidding? That's why I asked. More of a philosophy, you know.

[Daryl Hall]

Yeah, no, my philosophy is, is don't think about it.

[Interviewer]

Yeah. I, I do think it's remarkable that obviously there's cultural influences in your music as you go through the eras, but you seem overall immune to trend. Does that, is that a fair comment, you think?

[Daryl Hall]

Yeah, yeah. I think I'm out of the sweet, generous kind of thing. I try and even. I don't do it at all now. I don't even pay any attention to trend. But even in days when it was more important because of the way radio worked and all that, I, I, I still only just picked and chose little things to try and be relevant and, and congruent with the, the other people that were on the radio.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Daryl Hall]

You know, although my stuff wound up not really sounding like everybody.

[Interviewer]

Yeah. Were you receiving any particular business pressure to go in a particular direction at that time?

[Daryl Hall]

Yeah, I always used to get, like, Tommy Mottola pressure, you know, that kind of stuff. You know.

[Interviewer]

You know can you define that?

[Daryl Hall]

You know, it would be very good if you would stop playing the guitar songs, stay with the piano, you know.

[Interviewer]

Yeah. I had a manager once, tell me you write songs that girls like. What is all this heavy, loud guitar music? He said you should just stick with the pretty girl songs.

[Daryl Hall]

Oh, yeah, this is all that was.

[Interviewer]

1990, which is before all I wrote.

[Daryl Hall]

You make my dreams. He said, what's that? Charles Dickens? What is that supposed to mean?

[Interviewer]

Oh, my God. Okay, so we're at the watershed moment of the second Atlantic album. Rich Girl goes number one. Great. Still one of the great songs of all time. Is there a fresh story there about that song?

[Daryl Hall]

I don't know if there's a fresh story. There is the story.

[Interviewer]

All right, tell me this story.

[Daryl Hall]

I mean, I've told this story, but it was Sarah Allen's college boyfriend who she still hung out. Not hung out with, but, you know, knew. And he came to our house, our apartment, and he was tripping or something. I don't know. You know, he. He was, he was, he was acting pretty crazy. And, and, and, and he, and he happened to be an heir to a fast food place in Chicago. It's Chicago. Chicago area.

[Interviewer]

Was it Sausage King stuff?

[Daryl Hall]

It was one of those kind of things. Yeah. And. And he left. I went, man, he's a rich boy, but he's gone too far. And that's. And then I. And I sat down, I went, he's a rich boy and he's gone too far. That's about as far as I got. And. And then I said, no, that don't sound right. So I changed it to Rich Girl and then finished the song.

[Interviewer]

I'm curious at this stage because I know how the music business works all too well. There had to be someone in your ear telling you at this time to go solo.

[Daryl Hall]

There had to be my real friends.

[Interviewer]

Okay.

[Daryl Hall]

As opposed to the business people.

[Interviewer]

Was there any internal dilemma for you of following that?

[Daryl Hall]

There was a lot of people. And this went on for quite a while where people were saying, why are you just. Why don't you just.

[Interviewer]

Are you innately a loyal person?

[Daryl Hall]

I am, actually. I mean, I do consider myself very loyal and to a fault sometimes. And, and, and, and I did this. I'm, you know, I bucked it and went with Robert and did this and did those two records. Yeah, Robert. And that was when I was actually making a statement going like, okay, I'm going, I'm. I'm doing a solo. Excuse me, a solo thing. But I got so much pushback from my manager, Ms. Hola. And the record company. It just made it impossible. They sabotaged it. That's really what happened. I mean, as simple as that.

[Interviewer]

Is it because they're like, this is working. Don't mess it up.

[Daryl Hall]

The old cash cow. They liked it. They thought, they thought hall of Oats was more viably. Was more commercial to their interests.

[Interviewer]

Do you wish now that you had. He did that call.

[Daryl Hall]

I wish that I would have done more with Robert. Yes. Yeah. And he does too. I mean, Robert and I are close.

[Interviewer]

Friends and Another total gentleman.

[Daryl Hall]

Yeah. A great guy. Really great guy. And. And I just saw him a couple weeks ago and I. I wish that we had done more together. Yes, I do. I mean, he, he really, he was into it. He was, he was pushing for it. He said, let's, let's go, let's. You know, he wanted to call it League of Gentlemen. You know, he said, okay, and you be the singer and then we'll write songs. And. And then I, I just got. It got too much pressure. I mean, I. I was living in a bubble. I will be first to say that I was almost se. Semi hypnotized by it all because I was. I was kept in a situation where I didn't really have any advisors.

[Interviewer]

They did that back then very well in the business.

[Daryl Hall]

I mean, everybody was on the side against me and they were all in collusion with each other, whether it be lawyers or accountants or record company or the whole thing, management. And they were all saying the same thing, stick with loads, stick with loads, stick with loads. And then I did and did the Voices album. And that was around the time when I could have made that choice of either going and doing something.

[Interviewer]

77.

[Daryl Hall]

No, this was more like 79.

[Interviewer]

Okay.

[Daryl Hall]

And. And whether I was going to do this thing with Robert or I was going to make an album for rca. Yeah. And I did it. And then. I don't know what you want to call it. Fortunately you kind of buried it or well, became. I mean, that was kiss of my list and all that stuff.

[Interviewer]

Okay.

[Daryl Hall]

You know, so then it was successful.

[Interviewer]

I do remember because I was a fan. I do remember when you seemed to at least publicly felt like you guys made this pivot to what became more of an 80s sound. I was surprised that when you went there, you went there a lot earlier than a lot of people. In many ways, I think you're probably more influential in that space than I would have given you credit for, because in my mind that stuff was more like mid-80s. But it really starts about 1980, which was Kiss on my list. And was that something that you had decided internally? Where'd that come from?

[Daryl Hall]

It wasn't a decision. It was the fact that we were producing ourselves pretty much with the engineer. And I had been spending most of my time in England. And I think that that's why you.

[Interviewer]

Picked up on the.

[Daryl Hall]

I picked up on it because it was happening faster over. And so there's. There was that influence.

[Interviewer]

What was attractive about that? Because there's a. You know, 80s music is kind of cool. It's alien in a way, but it's got a coldness, too. But that's what makes it pretty.

[Daryl Hall]

Yeah. I don't know. I mean, it was just a different sound.

[Interviewer]

Yeah. So there's nothing like you had this kind of moment. It's just like you just kind of drifted there.

[Daryl Hall]

Yeah. Yeah. Okay.

[Interviewer]

That's interesting.

[Daryl Hall]

This is.

[Interviewer]

You guys go on this hellacious run so you lost that loving feeling Goes to number five. Kiss on my list. Number one. You make my dreams come true Number five. Private Eyes, number one. I can't go for that. That was number one. Maneater, number one. Obviously not all in a row. An out of touch, Number one. That's like Crazy land. Success.

[Daryl Hall]

It was. Whatever it was that we were doing, people suddenly really liked.

[Interviewer]

What do you think it was about that, looking back?

[Daryl Hall]

That it's very hard for me to tell you. It doesn't sound like other people. It sounds very much like me.

[Interviewer]

And to my ears, it still sounds super fresh. Which is weird because.

[Daryl Hall]

Well, that's what everybody says.

[Interviewer]

It's like the kind of thing. If it came out today, it would still work, which is weird.

[Daryl Hall]

That's part of its lasting success. These songs, I mean, I play them on stage all the time without John, and nobody seems to. It sounds same.

[Interviewer]

Well, we'll just leave that way for a moment. Okay. Now, I asked you before what your life was like when you started. Okay. Now. Now you're in a totally different stratosphere of success. I mean, the whole world knows who you are, especially back then. You're on MTV every five seconds. I mean, how are you being recognized?

[Daryl Hall]

That whole MTV thing, I mean, that took it to another place because it coincided exactly with the initial success of.

[Interviewer]

Right Place, Right Time.

[Daryl Hall]

I mean, totally. Right Place, Right Time. And we were dominating that. That. That whole network. I mean, I was a guest DJ all the time. VJ all the time. And, you know, they just give us five hours to do whatever you want, that kind of stuff.

[Interviewer]

Now, for those Paying attention to our conversation. I mean, you are the dominant vocal force in this moment of high achievement. And it's, you know, it's. I'm not saying it's unprecedented, but you're. You're in that sort of weird Beatles stratosphere where you have this run of hits that's like. I mean, it's. Only a few groups have ever had anything remotely like that.

[Daryl Hall]

Well, in the 80s, just me and Billy Joel.

[Interviewer]

Okay.

[Daryl Hall]

We were the two.

[Interviewer]

Okay, so give me a little bit what your life is like that, like. Then let's start there.

[Daryl Hall]

It was. It was a. The old cliche. It was like. It was like a whirlwind. And we were hurricane. We were in the.

[Interviewer]

Did you.

[Daryl Hall]

Did you enjoy it or not really? No. If you want the truth, I didn't find it that pleasant because that wasn't my motivation to get to do it the first place.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Daryl Hall]

You know, I'm a musician. I don't. You know, I'm not looking for attention, if you want, you know, and it was. It was. It was. I couldn't go anywhere. It was, you know, I couldn't go out of the house. I had. People bothered me all the time. I couldn't go shopping, couldn't go to the supermarket, you know, all that kind of stuff. And. And I. I didn't like. I didn't like it.

[Interviewer]

Were you still living in the city, though?

[Daryl Hall]

No, I was living up here.

[Interviewer]

Okay.

[Daryl Hall]

Not here.

[Interviewer]

You got. You got the hell out.

[Daryl Hall]

Yeah. Yeah. Well, I. I still had an apartment in New York, but I was. I was living in Connecticut.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Daryl Hall]

And. But it was. It was just really hard. And. And then combine that with the. Whatever happens on the road. That was big 80s time, you know, with all the excess and everything. Thank God I was in a drug. Yeah, I was in the drug guy. But it was. It was some wild man.

[Interviewer]

Yeah. What's your relationship like with your musical partner at this time? Because, you know, at least from an observational point of view. And again, I was listening to you guys back in the 70s, so I was aware of the partnership. But at this point, I mean, you are like the face of the thing. Who cares what it's called? I mean, it's very much you that's singing the songs on tv. What was your relationship like then?

[Daryl Hall]

We had a pretty good one, I have to say. I mean, you know, it was. We were together in the midst of all this, so that drew us.

[Interviewer]

That sort of bond. You.

[Daryl Hall]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

Okay.

[Daryl Hall]

Drew us together.

[Interviewer]

Yeah. So it didn't bring anything out that you look back now, that sort of shows the seeds of kind of where you guys ended up. Does it make sense?

[Daryl Hall]

Only in small ways.

[Interviewer]

Okay. I'm curious, too, because there was that interesting time, like, you know, Bowie has Let's dance, he's playing stadiums. Tina Turner has this massive comeback, she's playing stadiums. And I'm not saying you guys didn't have a lot of success. You were obviously huge, but, I mean, there had to be some point where you thought, I could have that.

[Daryl Hall]

For me, this is the big question mark. And this came up in another podcast where the guy said, yeah, I was a student at. At a Marist, not Marist College, but a Catholic college in Western Pennsylvania. And you guys played in the assembly room, and it was like 1982. He said, even we were thinking, why are they here? Why are they playing here? And ask anybody. And they're going to say, ask anybody in the live world. Any agent that was around back in those days. And they're going, why the. Did he do what he did to you? Why were you staying in Holiday Inns and playing high schools when you should been playing stadiums?

[Interviewer]

Okay, but back to my point, because to me, this is sort of the crux of what I'm after is. I mean, if it was me sitting in front of a tv, watching my contemporaries who. I'm.

[Daryl Hall]

I used to say, why is. Why is so. And so doing this? And why am I here? And I would get double talk. I would just get double. Yeah, why are they making all this money? And I'm. And, and, and, and.

[Interviewer]

But didn't the math kick in at some point where you thought, not only can I get out of this, but I.

[Daryl Hall]

The math kicked in. Everything kicked in. But I was trapped, okay? I was literally trapped in. In a world where every single. I'd said that before. Where in my. In my business world was on the other side?

[Interviewer]

Right. I. I know that feeling. So I'm. That's why I'm nodding my head, because it's. It's. It's. It's hard to explain if you haven't experienced it. It's sort of a haunting. It's like the. It's the famous movie Gaslight, right? It's like, yeah, you're being gaslit and you're being gaslit.

[Daryl Hall]

It's.

[Interviewer]

It'll say stuff to you, like, don't get too full of yourself. You know?

[Daryl Hall]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

That all that.

[Daryl Hall]

Or there always, somehow the. The wolf would be at the door. There will always be some reason why the money was Money's tight, you know that kind of.

[Interviewer]

Yeah, or you're only good as your last hit.

[Daryl Hall]

Yeah, yeah, any of that.

[Interviewer]

I'm abusing the quote and again it's the Internet, so if it's not your quote, please tell me. But I saw a quote where you said something along the lines of every artistic form has its golden age and unfortunately mine ended in 1990. Is that something you said? You think I said that? I saw it attributed to you. But it doesn't mean every artist has.

[Daryl Hall]

A golden age that ended in 1990.

[Interviewer]

No, no, no, Every, every, every, every artist. Sorry. Every artistic form has its golden age and unfortunately my what I was good at or what I was sort of recognized for that ended in 1990.

[Daryl Hall]

No, I didn't say that. Okay, but, but what I did say is close to that somehow that got turned. I said that every, every era has artistic situation has its gold and that age ended in 1990.

[Interviewer]

Maybe I'm nothing to do with me. Okay, OK. I didn't mean it that way. What I took it as is that tide shift and oftentimes great success is followed by sort of a period of confusion because it's almost impossible to sustain that level of intensity.

[Daryl Hall]

Yeah, well, you have to. One has to adapt and evolve. I mean I think that when I look back on it, my period as a quote, pop star, whatever you want to call that, I think that that kind of wound down around 1990, but then else kicked in.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Daryl Hall]

And so I think that did coincide with the end of, of a certain golden age of, of, of pop music.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Daryl Hall]

And now I think that I might end that now because I think the pop music is bigger than it ever was now. But it's a different kind. But it's a different kind of pop music.

[Interviewer]

True.

[Daryl Hall]

It's a whole different.

[Interviewer]

I, I, I. You would have in your, in your youthful prime, I mean you would have still been able to be a dominant force because your ability to move.

[Daryl Hall]

I probably would have be able to swim in those waters.

[Interviewer]

I take that bet on you. My show is not about gossip, so please understand why I'm asking this. There's not a lot of information about your relationship with Sarah Allen, so I'm more interested in the musical part of the partnership.

[Daryl Hall]

Well, I can tell you both really, even though this is gossip, I mean Sandy and I, I called her name Sarah, Sandy. We were together for a long time, almost 28 years, something like that. And she was, and her sister, I always have to add her to it, were very influential. I mean a Lot of the best songs in that period of time were written by the three of Private Eyes.

[Interviewer]

I can't go for that. Man Eater.

[Daryl Hall]

Right. Well, I can't go for that as there's a lot of misattribute. What's the word? Misattribute.

[Interviewer]

Misattribute.

[Daryl Hall]

Yeah, There you go.

[Interviewer]

We'll agree on that. We'll agree that we don't know how to say.

[Daryl Hall]

Yeah. However you say that in writer's credits, you can't go by writer's credit. Okay, but. And I'll say that for no can do. I wrote that song. Nobody else. But you mentioned Kiss and Private Eyes. Yeah, that was Alan's Sisters and me. And the Kiss on my list was a song I wrote with Jana Ellen. She was only 20 years old, and she came up with it with the chorus, and then I fleshed out the verse, and that was a real collaboration. And with Private Eyes, she brought Private Eyes to the table. She had written this kind of template for the song with a guy named Warren Pash, and. And they gave it to me and I altered it and changed it, and then Sarah and I wrote the words. So, I mean, these were collaborations between them. And Sandy really had a lot to do with this stuff.

[Interviewer]

Yeah. But I guess what I'm interested in is your life in 50 plus years in music, it's defined by these partnerships, and in this case, it's a personal relationship. And again, I'm not sort of after the gossip part of it. It's like, do you feel good that your life is defined by partnerships and. Or do you feel. Do you still have some part of you that thought I should have sort of stood in my own light at some point? Does that make sense? I don't. I'm not trying to sign anything to you. I'm just curious.

[Daryl Hall]

When I'm on stage, I'm the focal point, and that's what. That's what I do. You know, I'm the. I'm not. I'm. When I'm on stage, I don't have any partners. It's just me, you know? You know, and when I. When I'm creating, sometimes I have partners within. Within a project, and sometimes I don't. Sometimes I write songs on my own. Yeah, it's. It's just. It's flexible.

[Interviewer]

Yeah, I. I recently interviewed Sam Moore. Unfortunately, he just passed away. I think it might have even been his last interview. And I was asking him about his partnership with Dave, and I said, looking back, how do you feel about Dave and he goes, I don't think much of Dave.

[Daryl Hall]

Well, that's, I hate to say it, but that seems to be a common thing, especially with duos. Yeah, it's, it's, is it there?

[Interviewer]

Ultimately they're, they're by nature there becomes a power imbalance at some point. Yeah, it wasn't any different in my band.

[Daryl Hall]

I think it's inevitable. I mean, well, even, even in a band. Usually a band has two people doing things.

[Interviewer]

That's so more great bands. Everybody does something, which is why it gets wild.

[Daryl Hall]

True, true. But you know what I mean, it's like, look at the Beatles. I mean, you know, it was, it was Len and McCarthy and then, then, then it was the other.

[Interviewer]

But isn't it crazy with the Beatles that like you got. The guitar player can also write hits?

[Daryl Hall]

That's just where, well, that's what made.

[Interviewer]

I mean, that's where your mind just blows. It's like, how do you have, how do you have. That's the three guys who can write songs.

[Daryl Hall]

That's the best kind of band. But, but I didn't get that.

[Interviewer]

I didn't get that.

[Daryl Hall]

I think more commonly it's, it's usually two guys that, that, that expand upon themselves and form a band.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Daryl Hall]

What were we talking about? I can't remember.

[Interviewer]

Anyway, that, well, no, we were talking about. I asked you and I was sort of asking. You know, your life is defined in many ways by your partnerships. You know, obviously there's the one that everybody knows because it was the name of the door for 50 years. But even in your personal life with this 28 year relationship, there was a musical component to that partnership too.

[Daryl Hall]

I think a lot of people's lives are defined by their partnerships outside of music. Yeah, I think that's part of life.

[Interviewer]

But not everybody lives it in the glare of the public.

[Daryl Hall]

That's the difference. That's the difference.

[Interviewer]

Which is why I'm asking you these invasive questions.

[Daryl Hall]

But I, I, I, My partnerships are varied. So. Yeah, it's not, I'm, I guess I'm not creatively monogamous.

[Interviewer]

I like that. I like to talk a little bit about Darrell's House because it's such a great show. I love the spirit of Daryl's House. I mean, it's one of those shows as a musician. The first time I watched it, I was like, this is great. This is just music. Musicians celebrating music, having a good time. I know it kind of came is, you know, it kind of came in a somewhat spontaneous way. Right. It wasn't There wasn't some game plan. It's just kind of.

[Daryl Hall]

No, I. I just. I had a. One of those moments that I just went like, wait a minute. Instead of traveling the world, why don't I do something where the world comes to me and I. And. And in. In. In my house, you know?

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Daryl Hall]

Everything opposite land. And. And instead of having an audience. No audience. And just have a. Have a good time.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Daryl Hall]

Really?

[Interviewer]

I was watching this morning, your episode with Booker T. Oh, yeah. And knowing you love that music from. From Stax, and that was a good Sigma, but, I mean, there's gotta be that little kid in you that's still like, oh, my God, I'm hanging out.

[Daryl Hall]

With Booker T. Yeah. Well, I get. I get flashes. Well, that happens a lot with. With some of my idols that have been on the show. Maybe the most extreme two would be that my. One of my early ones was Smokey. When he came there, and I was like, wait a minute, Smokey came up here to do this?

[Interviewer]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Daryl Hall]

And then more recently was when I did it with the ojs, and that was like, again, baby food. That's Philly.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Daryl Hall]

And, you know, we went to a place, and that's when I really float. Start floating, you know? And. And Booker T. I remember singing Ain't no Love. Ain't no Love. And I was like, yeah, he wrote that song, man. I was always one. I'm a teenager, and I love. Yeah.

[Interviewer]

Yeah. What do you want people to. To understand about Darryl's house? Meaning? What is the. What is the message you want them to walk away with? Because there's a consistency there. But. But I'd like to hear it in your own words.

[Daryl Hall]

I think this. The people. I mean, I don't know if it's necessary, but I. I want them to know how spontaneous it really is and how good my band is. They're outrageous, man. They can do things. That blows my mind. He. I mean, I. We did that. We did the show when. With Robert Fripp and the song. We did the song Red. One of his. One of his.

[Interviewer]

Yes. King Crimson, right?

[Daryl Hall]

Yeah, King Crimson. Red. And we didn't even rehearse it. I mean, we. We rehearsed it separately.

[Interviewer]

Okay.

[Daryl Hall]

This is what we do. We rehearse things separately, and then we come in the room and we just play it.

[Interviewer]

Wow.

[Daryl Hall]

Everybody works on their own parts, and.

[Interviewer]

King Crimson is a little bit.

[Daryl Hall]

And Robert flipped out. He went. I have never played this song with anybody that didn't take at least three days of hard work to learn. How to play. And we did it in 10 minutes.

[Interviewer]

Since we're in this beautiful house built in the 1700s, it's like late 1700s. What is it about your love of old homes and restoring these things? What have you found privately that you didn't find in the world?

[Daryl Hall]

Well, I, like many traveling people who have done most of my life, I really have a real desire, a domestic desire to balance it out. That's one thing. Number two, I grew up with this stuff. I grew up in Chester County, Pennsylvania, outside of Philly. And I grew up with old houses. I grew up with colonial and all that kind of thing. I was born in. So is that. And also, you know, some people collect art. I like to live within art. And that's what this is to me. This is a giant painting. So there you go.

[Interviewer]

Thank you. I used AI for this thing, but I was sort of surprised. I said, tell me your touring history starting in 2000, you know, and it's, you know, it's like 43 shows, 65 shows, 35 shows. I mean, there's this consistent going out and playing, and then 20, 22, seven shows. And that's it, you know, between you and Mr. Oates.

[Daryl Hall]

Well, that was, that was. Yeah. I'm trying to remember what we. We knew this was kind of after the pandemic, it just. I think a lot of people's mind changed on. A lot of people's ideas coalesced in thoughts.

[Interviewer]

Can you quantify that, though?

[Daryl Hall]

I think that anything, any of all those kind of underlying resentments or desires to go off on their own or do what you haven't done in the past, I think the pandemic, that silence that, you know, that it was deafening silence, you know, staying in one place and breaking all patterns. I think that that definitely was the catalyst for us to go in different directions.

[Interviewer]

Okay, so was there a. Was it just an understanding or you just. Okay, that's it.

[Daryl Hall]

Believe it or not. And people can't believe this, but he. It was his idea.

[Interviewer]

Okay?

[Daryl Hall]

He.

[Interviewer]

He.

[Daryl Hall]

He wanted to go off and live in Nashville and do whatever the hell he does.

[Interviewer]

Yeah. So here's the setup on. On our. On our finish, I asked. I asked AI again, so it's AI. But I said, where does. Where does this group fit on the all time list of success? And it came back with a very interesting answer. It said, in the rock and roll era, 1956 to present day, Hall & Oates is the 40th biggest artist of all time.

[Daryl Hall]

I don't know how you Quantify that.

[Interviewer]

Well, it tried to, but I'm saying it's still. When you consider the competition, you've done quite well.

[Daryl Hall]

Well, I mean, that's flattering. I don't think it means anything.

[Interviewer]

It does something to me. It does to me because it's. Think it's because, you know. How can I put it? Success can be an illusory thing to the public, depending on who's on television and who gets pushed and what songs get played and what payola and. Oh, yeah, you know what I mean?

[Daryl Hall]

All those factors.

[Interviewer]

The public eventually figures out who the real deal people are, and the Spotify numbers eventually sort of reflect that because that public will come back again, again, again, to those. Those important artists. Also, I said, I asked where you rank on the duo list all time, biggest duo, based on the quantification there in terms of, you know, it was measure box office, meaning sales and chart success. So it's very interesting to see it that way, you know, against what it's the Everly Brothers and six number one hit songs. I mean, there's nothing to sneeze at, as we say back in Chicago. So knowing it's ended a bit sour with Mr. Oates. Are you cool with that? Not. I'm not saying that stuff, but I'm saying, are you cool with the choices you've made? Are you like. Yeah. Okay. I would basically. Would you do it all over again?

[Daryl Hall]

No.

[Interviewer]

Okay.

[Daryl Hall]

I would have done it differently. There's many things I would have done differently, and they would have produced different results, but I don't doubt that they would have been okay with me, whatever that was. But I listened to the wrong people for way too long. I allowed myself, because I'm not a weak person, but I allowed myself to get wrapped up in.

[Interviewer]

Well, if I can give you some confirmation on that. Up until you started Darryl's House, I saw you in this kind of amber, preserved in amber kind of way. Big artist. I saw you as the frontman. That was. That was easy in my mind. But I didn't really know you, you know what I mean? It wasn't until Darrell's house, where I was like, oh, this guy's. There's a soulful person in there. There's a person who loves music.

[Daryl Hall]

That is.

[Interviewer]

There's a generous spirit.

[Daryl Hall]

That's another one of my motivations to have done the show. I felt like people didn't know who I was.

[Interviewer]

I've been listening to you for. Like I said, I started listening to you for Sarah Smile.

[Daryl Hall]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

And for the first time in 2007. Ish or something. I'm like, oh, there's this guy. Which is why I'm here. You know, if it was just about music, I don't think I would have come because it's just a cold pop star shelf somewhere.

[Daryl Hall]

I hear you, man. Yeah, that really. I should have said that when you asked me about my. Why did I do Darrell's house? That was one of my main motivations is I felt like people didn't know what my motivations were, who I was, what kind of person I was. I think they had a completely different idea what kind of person I was.

[Interviewer]

You know how the kids say you get your flowers? Do you feel like you've finally gotten your flowers here in this.

[Daryl Hall]

Yeah, I got plenty of flowers. Forest of flowers.

[Interviewer]

Yeah. Okay. Well, God bless. Again, not interested in the gossip, but I think it helps understand because legal issues can be complicated. So. And I'm pretty conversant. I did some pretty deep research because when the. When the story came out about your lawsuit against John Oates, you know, it's the public, you know, he says, he says type of thing. I knew right away that you wouldn't have been doing what you're doing if there wasn't some sort of legal foundation. That was my first read. But I've actually taken time to understand the suit as presented. But can you. I call it the punter way. Can you tell people what the sort of foundational.

[Daryl Hall]

I can't really talk about it too much because I'm still in the middle of. But it wasn't a lawsuit, it was a restraining order.

[Interviewer]

Okay.

[Daryl Hall]

What that was, was to stop him from basically selling the company.

[Interviewer]

Yeah. You had a shared company, or you.

[Daryl Hall]

Have a shared company, tried to sell the company without telling me.

[Interviewer]

Yeah. So that's all I could say about it. Okay, great. So. But from an emotion, not great, but you understand. But from emotional point of view, I mean, a 50 year plus partnership, that must have been an interesting kind of cold water.

[Daryl Hall]

There was a lot of things. It was again, after the pandemic, I felt like I was dealing with a different person.

[Interviewer]

Do you see that in hindsight as this kind of long simmering?

[Daryl Hall]

I think so, yeah. I don't know. I don't know the motivation. I never. I don't know if I ever will.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Daryl Hall]

It took me, it hurt me, it took me by surprise. I Can I just say I gave him a hell of a lot, you know.

[Interviewer]

Yeah. He. Well, that seems to be the general perception from the fan community.

[Daryl Hall]

Well, I'm saying that because I have a support to say that. But, I mean, I don't know. I don't know why he did what he did.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Daryl Hall]

Nobody else does it.

[Interviewer]

Can you. I know you're in a legal situation, but can you at least view it empathetically? That might be a too Piscean a.

[Daryl Hall]

Question, but view him.

[Interviewer]

But sometimes the analogy that comes to mind. Excuse the bad song analogy, but sometimes people put their cards on the table, Right. And once their cards on the table, you're like, okay, now I finally understand. This explains some of what's been happening over here.

[Daryl Hall]

I. I think that I just explained it as well as I can, but there's things that I don't understand myself.

[Interviewer]

Right. I. I guess what I'm saying is, at least in my own situation, sometimes when people reveal themselves, it's almost refreshing. It's like, okay, now at least we're dealing with your version versus my version, as opposed to this other thing that I thought I was in.

[Daryl Hall]

At first, there was the initial shock and surprise, and then I knew what I was dealing with.

[Interviewer]

Okay.

[Daryl Hall]

And then. Then it was adversarial.

[Interviewer]

Okay. If given the opportunity, which is what I'm after. Is there something you want people to understand about that musical relationship? Because you know how the public is. You were both on the poster. You're both on the album. I know in my own life, when I've tried to delineate what I've actually done in my group, you almost get this weird pushback, like, don't spoil our fantasy. Somehow you're the wizard behind the curtain that's killing the vibe.

[Daryl Hall]

Yeah. Well, I think there were certain fans that wanted to believe, but I think what I'm finding out subsequently, because I go out there and play in front of people and do what I do, that there wasn't that much of that belief. I think there was a lot of, okay, I get it. But I do think that there was misunderstanding that I threw him out of the band. Which is the opposite. Which is the opposite.

[Interviewer]

Yeah. Well, that's just the modern life. They need a bad guy to make this.

[Daryl Hall]

Yeah, they try to. At first, people try to make me a bad guy, but I. I think even now they're. They're realizing, at least the people that come to my shows. Well, realizing.

[Interviewer]

Well, I'm not asking you to comment on the lawsuit, but at least my understanding of the lawsuit was. He tries to. He tried. He basically goes against the partnership agreement, tries to sell his share of it to Primary Wave. Doesn't Tell you you had to give permission for any sale, so you don't even get notification. And then he puts you in a corner and basically forces you to deal with third party.

[Daryl Hall]

You hit it on the head.

[Interviewer]

Okay. So at least for people watching, if they haven't seen it.

[Daryl Hall]

I'm glad you're saying that. That's good.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Daryl Hall]

Because then people can hear that.

[Interviewer]

Yeah. Okay. So I'm looking for a happy ending, but maybe there's not a happy ending.

[Daryl Hall]

Oh, the happy ending is I'm out there working and I have an album called D. Well, we didn't even talk about that.

[Interviewer]

Well, let's talk about it. I'm happy to talk about it. Yeah, we did talk about it at the beginning, to be fair.

[Daryl Hall]

Yeah, no, no, I mean, really talk about it.

[Interviewer]

Okay, let's talk about it.

[Daryl Hall]

Well, I mean, now that I'm saying that, what am I going to say about it? It was. It was a real. It's an album of joy and, and it. It was cathartic. It was fun to make. It was, I think, really, really musically successful. And it. It showed what great. A great partnership Dave and I have, what a real, really good partnership can be.

[Interviewer]

Yeah. I was struck, listening to it yesterday. I was struck by how joyous it is. Full of life. I particularly, like, I'm 58 years old and you're just a little bit older than me. And so I found it inspiring because, like, you have not given up the ghost, you know?

[Daryl Hall]

No, I'm hanging out with the ghosts.

[Interviewer]

You know, America's a little slow compared to the European version of letting people like us age gracefully and still make music.

[Daryl Hall]

It's an unusual thing. I mean, you get bogged down by your own baggage. I think in a lot of cases, you get to be my age and my experience, and I think when you. It's like, find a new love or something, you know, it's like it's never too late. And you can be inspired by all kinds of things.

[Interviewer]

Last thing, because I've heard some stuff behind the scenes and there was some talk with Paul McCartney, with, you know, how they always were, like, Lennon and McCartney. And at one point, even I think I heard where Paul wanted to switch, you know, his songs. Where would say, McCartney, Lennon. And is it. Is it important for you to. For people to understand what your contribution was? Are you okay if they want to think whatever they want to think?

[Daryl Hall]

Well, they can think what they want to think.

[Interviewer]

Because again, like I said, as a fan of yours for, gosh, 40, almost 40 years, right. You know, the pleasure of doing an interview like this with you, it's like I'm put in a position where I have to sort of make decisions, right. And sort of check my fan version of reality. And, you know, going back to the first time I heard Sarah smile on a little record player, and I think what's interesting is that, you know, you've made this incredibly well received music and certainly benefited from it in terms of. Of public interest. But, you know, like I said when I was talking about Elton John, you know, there's been very few moments where you've had that breakout moment where it's really been about you. And I think there's something unfair about that. And so I appreciate you being so open to talk about these things because I think that's part of. It's not a restoration project. You know, you don't deserve restoration. You are, you, you, you've, you've already done it. My point is, but for someone like me as a fan, it does help to know that there's a sort of a truer story to the thing, at least from your perspective, because it makes me appreciate you even more what you've contributed to my life as a musician.

[Daryl Hall]

Well, I think that, you know, my answer to that would be that I became really me when I started doing the series, the Live From Darrell's House series. That's what I broke out and became. Me.

[Interviewer]

Yeah. Well, here we are. God bless you. Thank you.

[Daryl Hall]

Yeah, bro.