Devo | The Magnificent Others with Billy Corgan

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Magnificent Others with Billy Corgan

Episode: Devo | The Magnificent Others with Billy Corgan

Date: September 10, 2025

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Overview

In this vibrant, insightful episode, Billy Corgan sits down for a deep-dive conversation with Devo’s Mark and Bob Mothersbaugh—two pioneers of experimental rock and cultural subversion. Set in a live setting at Madam Zoo, the discussion traverses Devo’s origins, their landmark SNL appearance, philosophical foundations including de-evolution and Dada, their complex dance with music industry machinery, and the enduring legacy (and contemporary relevance) of Devo’s socio-cultural critique.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

The SNL Performance and Cultural Impact

• Billy begins by recounting Devo’s pivotal Saturday Night Live (SNL) performance (October 17, 1978)—a watershed moment that brought Devo into American living rooms and sent shockwaves through popular culture.
  • [02:00] Billy: “You played two songs, Satisfaction and Jocko Homo...my father howling with laughter and glee from the other room...he pointed at the TV and said, ‘you have to watch this.’”
  • The appearance changed Devo’s fortunes overnight, bumping their venue sizes and broadening their reach.
  • [04:39] Mark Mothersbaugh: “Pretty much overnight, yeah [we felt the effect].”
  • [05:21] Mark Mothersbaugh: “That night, all the young kids who were too young to go out and have dates or whatever…they were watching Devo.”
• Polarization: Devo instantly split audiences into lovers and haters—radio largely rejected them; hipsters latched on.
  • [06:31] Mark: “At that time, the thumbnail was that we didn’t see evidence of evolution. We saw massive evidence of de-evolution in the culture.”

The Philosophy of De-Evolution

• Devo’s concept of de-evolution—society regressing rather than progressing—was more than a gimmick, it was a guiding philosophy.
  • [06:31] Mark: “People less able to think logically, critically, more...pronounced ability to spout slogans back at you that they learned. And mass conformity that we were warning against.”
  • [07:13] Bob: “Well, we were hoping we were just paranoid, but it hasn’t turned out that way.”
• Artistic Influences: Dada, Futurism, Technology
  • The band drew inspiration from Dada, European avant-garde, and American pop-art thinkers like Warhol.
  • [08:43] Bob: “…even the outfits in Ballet Mécanique were geometric...we were drawing, you know, like geometric shaped outfits [for the band].”

Subversion vs. Nostalgia

• Devo’s goal was not to restore an idealized American past, but to subvert and challenge it.
  • [09:23] Mark: “We were trying to subvert in a creative way. Our whole existence was a creative response to horror and trauma. That’s really what it was. And we were just anti stupid, okay?”
  • [10:20] Bob: “We wanted to work in all the mediums,” highlighting Devo’s early embrace of video art and synthesizers.

The Music Industry, Management, and Corporate Culture

• Neil Young and Elliott Roberts:
  • Neil Young introduced Devo to manager Elliott Roberts, leading to key career leaps including the SNL slot.
  • [19:15] Mark: “He [Neil] introduced us and said…I know you’ve had bad experiences…meet my man.”
• Elliott Roberts' Legacy:
  • Warm memories but frank criticism—his style was a mismatch, solved with the addition of Bill Gerber.
  • [20:27] Mark: “We liked him as a person, but his management style was very ineffective...Bill Gerber turned everything around.”
• MTV and the Visual Turn:
  • The advent of MTV brought new challenges for bands—videos became mandatory and expensive, labels gained new leverage.
  • [43:01] Bob: “It just made it really nasty...By the time we did our third one...we had Whip It...but after the early ‘80s...if you were in a band, you had to have a single that was also a video.”
  • MTV’s business model forced artists to supply content for free, shifting industry power.

Collaborative Process & Band Cohesion

• Devo’s internal cohesion was exceptional—decisions and art originated through organic, collective, often basement-level, collaboration.
  • [17:47] Mark: “We were all on the same page as people like to say, and we wanted the same thing...worked together in a collaborative way.”
  • Billy finds this unusual: “Very few bands I can think of that are all in the same direction at the same time.” [18:36]

Working with Bowie and Eno

• The legendary partnership with Brian Eno and David Bowie brought friction as Devo was highly self-assured.
  • [46:34] Bob: “…people like Brian Eno, I’ve heard him say they were the hardest band I ever tried to produce. They were too intense.”
  • [47:58] Bob: Anecdote about “turning down” Eno and Bowie’s surprise production additions at the mix stage.
  • [49:28] Mark: Eno’s “Oblique Strategies” vs. Devo’s Dada irreverence—Mark and Bob acknowledge they sometimes unintentionally offended Eno.

The Personal Touch: General Boy and Family

• Devo’s iconography included characters like “General Boy”—a role filled by Mark and Bob's real-life father, adding layers of satire and authenticity.
  • [38:04] Bob: “General Boy. Yeah…that was totally an accident, too. We didn’t really set out to hire him, but then it turned out that he had closet aspirations...”
  • [39:34] Bob: “Oh, Jerry wrote most of his dialogue. But then he started contributing.”

Coping With Success, The Machine, and Legacy

• The conversation addresses the inevitable clash between subversive intent and music-industry commodification.
  • [54:12] Billy: “There’s the kind of—the funny, like, okay, I guess we’re in the machine now. And then there’s the day you wake up…‘now I’m stuck in the machine and I can’t get out of the machine.’”
  • [55:27] Bob retells the record-industry shift post-“Whip It”: “They said, ‘whatever you do, do another Whip It.’ And we’re like, well, we never thought about music that way.”
  • The emotional honesty of the band (“Jerry broke down in tears…inconsolable...”) captures the toll of major-label expectations.

On Contemporary Culture, Technology, & AI

• The digitization and democratization of music is a double-edged sword: more opportunities for artists, but the same old problems of content saturation and corporatization.
  • [31:04] Bob: “On a phone, little kids have…better technology than the Beatles...”
  • [31:37] Bob: “...if you’re doing music because you love it, there’s a lot more people doing that now...I think that’s great.”
  • [63:32] Mark: “Right now, there’s nothing more Devo than AI music because you just hear all these cliches being mishmashed together.”
• Devo sees AI as a new wave of both potential novelty and continuing challenge to authentic human agency.
  • [65:07] Mark: “I just haven’t heard the AI written hit yet. But what happens when we do?”

Lasting Influence, Vindication, and the “Freedom Example”

• Billy reflects Devo back to themselves as a “living example of what freedom actually looks like.”
  • [32:51] Billy: "At some point it becomes like this is the living example of what freedom actually looks like."
  • Mark responds: “There you go.” [32:51]
• The band is recognized as generational connectors—new-wave’s Grateful Dead.
  • [59:03] Mark: “Only because recently, when we play, there are three generations of people out there...So we are the new wave Grateful Dead.”

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On SNL Performance:
  • [03:01] Bob: “The most common story we get is I watched you guys on Saturday Night Live and it scared the—out of me.”
  • [05:21] Mark: “That night, all the young kids who were too young to go out and have dates...they were watching Devo.”
• On De-Evolution and Society:
  • [06:31] Mark: “We didn’t see evidence of evolution. We saw massive evidence of de-evolution in the culture.”
  • [07:10] Billy: "What’s frightening is not only were you right…the trend line has continued."
  • [07:13] Bob: “Well, we were hoping we were just paranoid, but it hasn’t turned out that way.”
• Band’s Philosophy:
  • [09:23] Mark: “We were trying to subvert in a creative way. Our whole existence was a creative response to horror and trauma.”
• On Industry Mechanics:
  • [43:01] Bob: “It just made it really nasty...you had to have a single that was also a video...if they [MTV] didn’t program it...that was it.”
• Artistic Integrity Amidst Industry Pressure:
  • [55:27] Bob: “Whatever you do, do another Whip It...we never thought about music that way.”
• On AI, Technology, & Music:
  • [63:32] Mark: “There’s nothing more Devo than AI music because you just hear all these cliches being mishmashed together.”
  • [64:54] Mark: “Sounds like it. I am [still endorsing human agency].”
• On Lasting Validation:
  • [60:49] Mark: “Vindicate is good.”
  • [32:51] Billy: “At some point it becomes like this is the living example of what freedom actually looks like.”
• Billy Corgan’s Hall of Fame Speech Link:
  • [67:17] Billy: “One of the biggest, or probably maybe the biggest album of all time in Dark Side of the Moon wasn’t voiced for radio…And thank God I had bands like you to say, no, there is…this other way…”

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Important Timestamps (selected for depth and turning points)

• [02:00] — SNL moment and its fallout on Devo’s reach
• [06:31] — De-evolution philosophy distilled
• [08:43] — Dada, Ballet Mécanique, outfits
• [19:15] — Neil Young introduces Elliott Roberts
• [25:57] — Stories about recommending bands to Elliott (Human League, Residents)
• [29:35] — Perspective on corporatization of music, double-edged irony
• [38:04] — General Boy’s (their father) accidental role initiation
• [46:34] — The Brian Eno/Bowie "production wars"
• [55:27] — The “Whip It” pivot with the record label
• [63:32] — AI and the future of creative music
• [67:17] — Corgan’s “the thing that should not be” reflection (meta on Devo’s improbable success)
• [68:21] — Mark: “We need somebody with a hillbilly voice as if they’re in Deliverance to go, ‘Devo, you should not be. But you are.’”

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Final Thoughts

The episode is a rare cross-generational forum—Billy Corgan, an icon in his own right, drawing out Devo’s radical intentions, trial-by-fire industry lessons, and continued relevance with humor and warmth. The group reflects on the irony of fighting cultural “de-evolution,” only to see their cautionary art become reality, yet also points to a continued spirit of innovation and sincerity.

For listeners:
Devo’s journey is more than musical—it is a philosophical case study in subverting norms, staying sincere, and embracing collective creativity in the face of systemic inertia. The episode leaves with a sense of vindication and inspiration—the “thing that should not be”—remains a blueprint for artistic freedom.

Transcript

[Mark Mothersbaugh]

That night, all the young kids who were too young to go out and have dates or whatever.

[Bob Mothersbaugh]

Yeah, yeah.

[Mark Mothersbaugh]

They were watching Devo.

[Billy]

So in my parlance, I call it the thing that should not be Devo. Should not be. But you are.

[Mark Mothersbaugh]

Well, you know, we were really controversial and polarizing back then, and there were people who loved us and people that hated us.

[Bob Mothersbaugh]

More of them that hated us.

[Mark Mothersbaugh]

Well, yeah, more in the beginning. You know, like anything new.

[Billy]

That's the beauty of rock and roll. It doesn't. Is always looking for the next thing.

[Mark Mothersbaugh]

The only reason people are interested in us now is because we did something sincere and creative and original at that time. That a lot of it has withstood the test of time.

[Billy]

Well, here we are. Thank you for being at Madam Zoo. This is our first ever live podcast from my podcast, the Magnificent Others. So I'm very honored to have you on my podcast. You can apply. It's hard to get people to visit and.

[Mark Mothersbaugh]

And this is the first time I've met you in person.

[Billy]

Yes, we played together in about 2007 in Kentucky. That's right, Kentucky.

[Bob Mothersbaugh]

They kept us apart, though.

[Billy]

Well, you know, despite your sort of egalitarian profile, you know, it was like, don't go near them, don't talk to them. Don't look at them in the ey.

[Bob Mothersbaugh]

You could catch something.

[Mark Mothersbaugh]

Who said that?

[Billy]

Probably some guy wearing a flower pot.

[Mark Mothersbaugh]

Yeah, that's the problem.

[Billy]

Okay, so let's jump in. So I know where you were. October 14th, 1978.

[Mark Mothersbaugh]

Do you remember October 14th?

[Billy]

That's what it said.

[Mark Mothersbaugh]

Oh, I remember. The 17th. Saturday Night Live.

[Billy]

Yes. Yeah, maybe I have the date wrong. Was.

[Mark Mothersbaugh]

All right, somewhere around there. Close, Close.

[Billy]

Okay, I'll go with you because you were there. October 17, 1978, Saran live. He played two songs, Satisfaction and Jaco Promo. Yeah. And the reason I want to start here is because my father was a musician. Hated pretty much everyone, maybe outside of Sly Stone or something. And I didn't have a bedtime when I was a kid, so I would have been, at this point, 11 years old. And I heard my father howling with laughter and glee from the other room.

[Bob Mothersbaugh]

Oh, okay.

[Billy]

And I walked in because I couldn't understand the. Whatever he was laughing at, but it wasn't laughter, mockery. It was like he couldn't believe what he was seeing.

[Mark Mothersbaugh]

Exactly.

[Billy]

And I came in, and we had the little roller TV on color TV in the kitchen, and he pointed the TV and said, you have to watch this.

[Mark Mothersbaugh]

Oh.

[Billy]

And that was the first time he.

[Mark Mothersbaugh]

Was a good dad.

[Bob Mothersbaugh]

Yeah. You know, we. The most common story we get is I watched you guys on Saturday Night Live and it scared the. Out of me.

[Billy]

Oh, really?

[Bob Mothersbaugh]

Yeah, we get that. Yeah.

[Mark Mothersbaugh]

Nobody believed it was real. I. I remember people telling me, did. Did Lorne Michaels and those people, did they speed up the video? And I go, well. Well, they couldn't because it was live. How did you guys do that?

[Billy]

Well, what was strange for me was I was used to my father pointing at the television saying, I hate this. I hate. Because he was a musician, and it was always bad, bad, bad, worse, bad. He can't sing, she can't dance. And I couldn't quite at that moment. Now it makes sense to me, understand what he saw in it, because it was so different. And my natural thought would be, well, this would be something he wouldn't like.

[Mark Mothersbaugh]

But it was two steps ahead of difference. So that he couldn't hate it.

[Billy]

No, I think he immediately got what you were doing. Now, he was a stoner, so that might have contributed.

[Mark Mothersbaugh]

No, there were people like my parents who were just like your dad about everything, but when they saw the Beatles, it kind of stunned them.

[Billy]

They.

[Mark Mothersbaugh]

They weren't.

[Billy]

That's what I'm saying. He had that.

[Mark Mothersbaugh]

They weren't able to process it.

[Billy]

It was sort of like, this is so awesome. What is this?

[Mark Mothersbaugh]

Yeah.

[Billy]

So, yeah.

[Bob Mothersbaugh]

Yeah.

[Mark Mothersbaugh]

Until then, it was like. It was all terrible. Stupid.

[Billy]

Did you. Did you. Did you feel the effect of that performance or that appearance immediately? Was that apparent to you from the inside?

[Mark Mothersbaugh]

Pretty much overnight, yeah.

[Bob Mothersbaugh]

We changed our venues. We were in the middle of a tour and our venues all changed.

[Billy]

You went up to the level?

[Bob Mothersbaugh]

We went up a step, yeah.

[Mark Mothersbaugh]

Because you got to remember the viewership then. There were only three channels, Right. National TV channels. Everybody had common experiences. And Saturday Night Live was this revolutionary thing. And on any given night, they had about a 15 million share. 15 million viewers. And so that night, all the young kids who were too young to go out and have dates or whatever.

[Bob Mothersbaugh]

Yeah, yeah.

[Mark Mothersbaugh]

They were watching Devo.

[Billy]

Yeah. Fantastic.

[Bob Mothersbaugh]

College students. Everybody watched snl. It was a phenomena.

[Billy]

Did you get any kind of. Not. I won't say media kickback, but, like, did the hipsters decide they all liked you all of a sudden? Was that.

[Mark Mothersbaugh]

Yes, the hipsters did, but not radio.

[Bob Mothersbaugh]

Right.

[Mark Mothersbaugh]

They all decided they hated us.

[Billy]

Really? Yeah, because it was. Pick your adjective.

[Bob Mothersbaugh]

Well, we were trying to trick people into thinking it was rock and roll or something like that, you know, and they didn't get at all what we were.

[Billy]

Yeah. For the Punters in the crowd, including me. Give me your sort of general. Because this was the. I bring this up because when I did start paying attention, which was immediately after that performance, I remember the first thing that hit me conceptually was the idea of de evolution. And that was a big thing. So can you give me your kind of thumbnail on. Because it obviously drove the philosophical underpinnings of the band, if that's a fair way.

[Mark Mothersbaugh]

At that time, the thumbnail was that we didn't see evidence of evolution. We saw massive evidence of de evolution in the culture. People less able to think logically, critically, more pronounced ability to spout slogans back at you that they learned. And mass conformity that we were warning against.

[Billy]

Well, thankfully we course corrected and now our country is.

[Mark Mothersbaugh]

Yeah, yeah, it's all better now.

[Billy]

What's frightening is not only were you right, I mean, it's the trend line has continued.

[Mark Mothersbaugh]

Correct.

[Billy]

That must strike you in as some sort of irony.

[Bob Mothersbaugh]

Well, we were hoping we were just paranoid, but it hasn't turned out that way.

[Mark Mothersbaugh]

So, yeah, we thought we were canaries in a coal mine and being kind of like snarky and, you know, student cool. But it's beyond idiocracy now.

[Bob Mothersbaugh]

Yeah.

[Billy]

Do you agree with that? If you could talk a little bit about the Dada influence on your thinking.

[Bob Mothersbaugh]

You know, we were at school and we were at school, all of us, in the late 60s, early 70s, and we were really interested in all the art movements going on in Europe in the 20s and 30s. And I just remember wishing I could have been there then. You know, back in the, you know, there were the futurists in Italy that we didn't share their politics, but we loved their concept of music where they thought that, you know, current orchestras and the music that was available then didn't relate to our culture. And they said for industrial society you need new instruments. And they were experimenting with foghorns and clanging sounds and songs.

[Billy]

There's even that kind of early Dada film where it was trying to kind of. It was called something mechanical. Ballet.

[Bob Mothersbaugh]

Ballet.

[Mark Mothersbaugh]

Ballet. Mechanique.

[Bob Mothersbaugh]

Yeah, yeah. That influenced us a lot. I mean, even the outfits in. In that were geometric.

[Mark Mothersbaugh]

Yeah.

[Bob Mothersbaugh]

And. And so we like that. So we were drawing pictures of how we imagined if we ever got to play a show somewhere, you know, we'd dress and, you know, we were drawing, you know, like geometric shaped outfits.

[Billy]

Going back to American culture for a second was. Was. And I know this is a bit of a heady way to put it, but was your. Was Your hope that American culture would be subverted and it would be replaced? Or did you, in a way, wished it turned out to be the idealized, sort of 50s version that we all talked about?

[Mark Mothersbaugh]

No, you're right. Subversion's the word.

[Billy]

Okay?

[Mark Mothersbaugh]

We were trying to subvert in a creative way. Our whole existence was a creative response to horror and trauma. That's really what it was. And we were just anti stupid, okay? It went beyond any kind of partisan thing or. It was about the duality of human nature being so flawed and so dangerous that what we saw was the danger of stupidity, you know, just crushing liberty and the human spirit. And so we were being funny and creative.

[Billy]

Yeah.

[Mark Mothersbaugh]

And having fun.

[Billy]

Did you. Did you hope with that subversion that it would be replaced by something? Or was it sort of like, can we kind of reverse the trend line here?

[Bob Mothersbaugh]

Well, we thought things were gonna go differently than they did. We were paying attention to artists like Andy Warhol and other current artists at the time that were just coming out. And they were like multimedia. They weren't just, I just do this. I just play one instrument or I just do one kind of art. They were about the idea first. And then they would use whatever technology or whatever, you know, method they needed, whatever, you know, whether it was visual or audio or film or whatever. And we liked that. We wanted to work in all the mediums. And so at the time we were come, we were forming, there was. Video was just starting to become available to the average person. You could go get, you know, some really clumsy, you know, like video equipment.

[Mark Mothersbaugh]

Beta, beta camera, Right. We were embracing technology. And Mark was definitely. He was the guy that had a mini Moog and an ARP Odyssey, you know, and he wasn't interested in trying to make beautiful, fake orchestral sounds. He was making noise. And I said, that's great. This is great. Because when you ask that question that you just asked, and the crux of it's very serious. We weren't trying to roll anything back and go back to the Beatles. We were trying to project a way forward. When music had stultified and gotten rancidly self involved with guys with, you know, platform shoes and big socks in their crotches. You know, the whole. The cliche was so disgusting and stupid to us. We were trying to show people a way forward.

[Billy]

Did. Did any artists of that time take umbrage with the sort of the. Let's call it the subversive?

[Mark Mothersbaugh]

Did they all. Yes, they did.

[Billy]

Did they tell you about it or did you hear about it? I mean.

[Mark Mothersbaugh]

Well, we'd hear about it indirectly, but I remember one meeting with. Who was it? Todd Rundgren. Remember that? When we were summoned to his studio in San Francisco and we went to this meeting, he goes, are you guys just trying to shock people, or do you want to be successful? It was hilarious. It was like, this is 1977. I'm like, what? Well, we're doing what we do, you know, he was really upset.

[Billy]

So he just wanted to talk to you. I mean.

[Mark Mothersbaugh]

Yeah, well, I guess we were important enough on his radar to have him have to, like.

[Billy]

Isn't it ironic then, that he eventually had that hit about banging on a drum? I mean. I mean, it could have. It could have. It's a message that could have come out of Devo. Right. This idea.

[Mark Mothersbaugh]

That's true.

[Billy]

You know, it's kind of an idea of erasure, and I just need to bang on the drum to be happy. You know, they all come around eventually.

[Mark Mothersbaugh]

I'm glad you remember that.

[Billy]

I'm not sure who said it, but it was in your. In your documentary. The quote was, we're not cynical. We just watch the news. Absolutely. Can you. Can you point to some of the cultural forces at the time of the bands? I know the formation didn't happen overnight. You know, bring it up. Saturday Night Live is nice, but there was this formative years before that. You know, it's like, was there. Was there, you know, like. Some people say Nixon, or was it, you know, like.

[Mark Mothersbaugh]

Well, Nixon was.

[Billy]

Who was your. Who was your. Like, your top five?

[Mark Mothersbaugh]

Tricky Dicky was important because he. He tried to do something where he knocked down the three rails of government, you know, like the checks and balances of the judiciary, the executive, and the legislative branch. And in a. In a way that was in your face. And. And we were upset by that. And that's why the expansion of the war happened from Vietnam into Cambodia without an act of Congress. This was unprecedented in history of the.

[Billy]

United States up to that point.

[Mark Mothersbaugh]

Up to that point.

[Billy]

And. And.

[Mark Mothersbaugh]

And then after that, it was normal.

[Billy]

Yeah, now it's normal.

[Mark Mothersbaugh]

Yeah, exactly. And. And that's why all the students across America were upset. And that's why the protests happened at Kent State University when I was there about the expansion of that war without an act of Congress. And that's when they brought in the National Guard with live ammunition and M1 rifles. And we didn't know that. You know, it was like the old hillbilly song. I didn't know Gun was loaded. Right. We didn't know we were Stupid.

[Billy]

Were you the only person in the band that was at that.

[Bob Mothersbaugh]

No.

[Mark Mothersbaugh]

Yeah, yeah, that day. Oh, at that day.

[Bob Mothersbaugh]

Yeah.

[Billy]

Sorry.

[Bob Mothersbaugh]

I was at the first demonstration. Bob was at the one the next night, and then Jerry was at the one the third day.

[Billy]

Yeah. Wow.

[Mark Mothersbaugh]

I was the one that killed people because, you know, I had been a member of sds, to be honest. And what's SDS students were a democratic society. It was kind of lefty, but it was really just against illegitimate authority controlling your life. In other words, centralization. They thought that people should have locally their own agency over their own government.

[Billy]

Yeah. Nothing too crazy, just.

[Mark Mothersbaugh]

Yeah. In other words, not big government.

[Billy]

Yeah.

[Mark Mothersbaugh]

Which now all we have is big government. So, anyway, that. That's. And what's weird about that day is they shot at us, and it was completely, just shockingly, you know, unforeseen. They shot at us, but they shot over the heads of all the students who were closest to them because the National Guard was composed of kids who were the same age as me. Right. And my friends. And I think because they had gas masks on and they could see us, they didn't really want to shoot us point blank like. Like ducks in a shooting gallery. And so they kind of shot over our heads. And the people that got killed and wounded were all 20, 40ft behind us.

[Billy]

So you almost think in a way it was maybe not accident, but, you know, was. They weren't necessarily trying to hurt people.

[Mark Mothersbaugh]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Billy]

I think I never heard.

[Mark Mothersbaugh]

They were given an order and then they didn't really want to do it.

[Bob Mothersbaugh]

Yeah.

[Billy]

I'm struck, looking at your long partnership, if that's even a fair word, that you had such a unique trust with each other. It really. It really comes across to me when I watch your performances. There's a. There's a. There's a cohesion in your. In your. I mean, you are articulate, man.

[Mark Mothersbaugh]

Cohesion is the key.

[Billy]

But it was that something. I mean, was it something that came natural? Was it something you guys kind of worked out, you know, sitting around a table and then like, let's. Let's get on the seat. Okay.

[Bob Mothersbaugh]

Yeah, it was. We talked about it, but it was. Most of it was just. It just happened in a basement. And it was like things that made us laugh or things that. That.

[Mark Mothersbaugh]

We were all on the same page as people like to say, and we wanted the same thing. We have the same goal, and we worked together in a collaborative way to make it happen.

[Billy]

It's. It's. It's. It's really beautiful to Watch. Because, you know, having been in band bands, it's not. Doesn't take much for people to go in their own direction.

[Bob Mothersbaugh]

Yeah.

[Mark Mothersbaugh]

Oh, yeah, well.

[Billy]

And that's natural. That's human, you know, And a band, in many ways is like a family and, you know, blood here too. But. But it doesn't always work that way. I mean, there's. Reality sets in at some point and. But when I watch those performances, it's like you committed to that space in a way that's. I. It's. There's very few bands I can think of that are all in the same direction at the same time.

[Mark Mothersbaugh]

And that's what energized me and that's what I loved. That's. You know, it was incredible. And that's what people like, too, because they like to see a collective of people working together and moving in one direction because that gives them hope in their lives that they're not just isolated and that they could do that.

[Billy]

Yeah. I know at one point you were managed by Elliot Roberts. Was that first, second album, or is that sort of when you needed.

[Mark Mothersbaugh]

He was our manager from the beginning because of. Because of Neil Young. Neil Young brought him in.

[Billy]

Neil Young brought him in to you guys.

[Mark Mothersbaugh]

Yeah. He introduced us and said, I know you've been thinking about a manager, and I know you've had bad experiences meeting with people here. Here you go. Meet. Meet my man.

[Billy]

So how'd you. How did you know Neil before that? I didn't. I thought it was the other way around. So that's.

[Mark Mothersbaugh]

No, we. We were introduced to Neil Young through Tony Basil and Dean Stockwell.

[Billy]

Okay.

[Mark Mothersbaugh]

And we were amazed that he liked us. It was just like.

[Bob Mothersbaugh]

We thought, that's a weird.

[Billy]

Well, he's definitely a kind of an outlying personality.

[Mark Mothersbaugh]

Absolutely.

[Bob Mothersbaugh]

Yeah.

[Billy]

But the reason I bring up Elliot is because I was managed by Elliot at one point, so I didn't know that. Yeah.

[Mark Mothersbaugh]

So sorry about that.

[Bob Mothersbaugh]

No, I mean, that's great. That's great.

[Billy]

I. I was getting there. I was getting there. But, you know, Elliot, you know, he sort of extolled the 60s virtue of not selling out and.

[Bob Mothersbaugh]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's. That was.

[Billy]

Until it doesn't work. You know what I mean?

[Bob Mothersbaugh]

Yeah.

[Billy]

But I was curious how that worked. Did that kind of 60s. He wasn't really a hippie, but he was very much a 60s brain. How did that fly with you guys at the time?

[Mark Mothersbaugh]

We liked him as a person, but his management style was very ineffective. And about two years in, we had met this guy, Bill Gerber. Who was young and brash and smart and plugged into what was happening with the emerging music scene. And we actually told Elliot we wanted him to hire Bill Gerber or we had to leave. And so he hired Bill Gerber, and Bill Gerber turned everything around.

[Bob Mothersbaugh]

Yeah.

[Billy]

Did you end up going with him eventually then, or.

[Mark Mothersbaugh]

Well, Bill Gerber worked for Elliot till the end.

[Billy]

Oh, so it kind of worked.

[Mark Mothersbaugh]

Yeah.

[Billy]

Okay. Yeah.

[Mark Mothersbaugh]

And Bill Gerber ended up being a big deal producer for Warner Brothers films.

[Billy]

Right. When you guys kind of. And I don't know if what your memory is, but it seemed like that movie with Neil, was it Human Highway? But then other stuff of yours, visually seemed to be on television a lot in the. In. In that period.

[Mark Mothersbaugh]

Yeah, we were lucked out. Yeah.

[Billy]

I mean, it was a lot. I felt like Human highway was on every five seconds on HBO for a period. Yeah, but what was your. What was your thought of working with Neil so publicly? You know, did you. Did you sort of see it as an alliance or. It was fun or.

[Mark Mothersbaugh]

It was a wonderful anomaly. I mean, we like Neil personally. We couldn't believe. It's like, oh, he's not the grandfather of granola rock. This guy's whacked out.

[Billy]

And he.

[Mark Mothersbaugh]

And he was so youthful in his thoughts. Right. He was so curious. And you could see him, like, being energized by our aesthetic.

[Bob Mothersbaugh]

Yeah. You know, his. I liked his filmmaking better than his music, actually, because I liked his style of. It was kind of like Robert Downey Senior. It was impromptu on the street stuff where he wasn't afraid to just shoot things and let them happen and then turn that into a movie. And it was kind of da, da.

[Mark Mothersbaugh]

Yeah.

[Billy]

Did you ever put together, you know, Mr. Soul is basically Satisfaction in reverse. Did you know that?

[Bob Mothersbaugh]

No.

[Mark Mothersbaugh]

Let me think about that.

[Billy]

My take, and I don't know it For a fact, Mr. Soul is Neil's piss take on Satisfaction.

[Bob Mothersbaugh]

Oh.

[Billy]

It's the riff in reverse. And if you listen to the lyrics, he's kind of making fun of the Stones.

[Mark Mothersbaugh]

Wow.

[Bob Mothersbaugh]

Dang. Now I gotta go listen to the song. Yeah.

[Billy]

Not bad, right?

[Bob Mothersbaugh]

Yeah. You know, our thing with Satisfaction is it was 1974. It was like 10 years after satisfaction was first came out. And I remember thinking, well, rock and roll's over now. So what's the new. You know, what's the new sound? And so we took Satisfaction and created our version of it 10 years later because we wanted to. We thought it was the best rock and roll song.

[Mark Mothersbaugh]

Yeah.

[Bob Mothersbaugh]

That was ever made.

[Mark Mothersbaugh]

I Thought Satisfaction was the most incredible, like, definitive rock and roll moment.

[Billy]

Well, even the lyrics are sort of anti commercialism in their own kind of weird way.

[Bob Mothersbaugh]

And the. The guitar riftico that has three notes up and the bass is going four notes and they. They clash each time they play them. That was like a devo thing. That was great.

[Billy]

Yeah, I just had this meta thing of like, Neil's piss take on it. Your piss take on it. And then you guys working with Neil.

[Mark Mothersbaugh]

I guess it's karmic, maybe. Yeah.

[Billy]

So did you stay with Elliot through that? Through the.

[Mark Mothersbaugh]

We stayed with Elliot till the end.

[Billy]

Okay. Yeah, I fired Elliot.

[Mark Mothersbaugh]

I understand that.

[Bob Mothersbaugh]

Yeah.

[Billy]

And he. And he was very mad at me for firing him. It was kind of like, how dare you fire me?

[Mark Mothersbaugh]

I'm Elliot Roberts.

[Billy]

Yeah, pretty much. And I tried to, because I liked him very much personally. He was a great person.

[Mark Mothersbaugh]

Yeah.

[Bob Mothersbaugh]

Well, I remember. I remember we went to England and played our first shows. We were. We were playing our first shows after our. We recorded our album before. While we were recording our first album, singles that we had released with Stiff records were charting and they were going number one in different countries. And somebody showed us that and they. They were like, hey, you gotta come play a few shows in England before you go back. So we. And why am I telling you that?

[Mark Mothersbaugh]

Elliot Roberts.

[Bob Mothersbaugh]

Elliot Roberts. Okay. So we got. So while we were there, we met bands, and while we were in Manchester, we met a Human League who were. Half of their band was. What was the other band that they had? That they had? Yeah. When they split apart, they became Heaven 17, which I loved.

[Mark Mothersbaugh]

Heaven 17.

[Bob Mothersbaugh]

Yeah. They were the heavier of the two pieces. But we got back and Elliot said, did you hear any good music? I said, yeah, check this out, it's Human League. And the next day he goes, if that music is ever a hit, I'll eat my hat. And so I was like, okay, whatever. And then about a month later.

[Mark Mothersbaugh]

But he didn't wear a hat.

[Bob Mothersbaugh]

He didn't wear a hat. He was smart. Yeah. But he. After they became big, he said, hey, are there any other bands you think I should sign? Okay. So I said to him, yes, there's this band from San Francisco called the Residents. You gotta sign them, they're great. And so he did, and he put the Residents on a tour. And I remember the first show was in Pasadena and they were doing their most extreme, hard to watch show of any of the shows they ever did. And I remember about halfway through the show, he came walking up the aisle and he passed Me. He goes, don't ever recommend another band to me.

[Mark Mothersbaugh]

He did get us on Saturday Night Live, though. That's right.

[Bob Mothersbaugh]

That was the big thing.

[Billy]

Oh, Elliot.

[Mark Mothersbaugh]

Yeah, that's how we signed with him. Because he came to the set when we were filming Human highway with Neil Young and Dean Stockwell and Dennis Hopper.

[Bob Mothersbaugh]

Yeah, Dennis Tamblyn.

[Mark Mothersbaugh]

And he, you know, we met him for the first time. And he goes, neil tells me you guys are adverse to managers. And I said, well, no, they just, they want 20%. They want a piece of your publishing. They want you to sign a three year deal. I, I couldn't do of that. I had to say no. He goes, I don't want any of that. Just 15%, 30 day handshake. I get rid of you, you get rid of me. Anything else? I said, yeah, we've been trying to get our tapes and our songs to Saturday Night Live because we want on that program. And he goes, come into my office next week. No problem. And of course, he was good friends with Lorne Michaels. What we didn't know is that Lorne had been trying to get Neil Young on his show for two years at that point, because they started in 75, now it's 77. So what Neil, what, what Eliot does is he promises Lorne, who doesn't give a hell about Devo, he doesn't know who it is, he says, I will get you Neil Young if you put these guys on your show. And Lawrence goes, okay. And he didn't even like what we were doing. What was perfect is that it came a week after the Stones were on the opening part of 77 season. So we come on Playing Satisfaction a week after the Stones opened the season.

[Billy]

Oh, it was even more kind of.

[Mark Mothersbaugh]

And it just all looked like a big, big deal. And it was partly planned and partly not.

[Billy]

Yeah.

[Bob Mothersbaugh]

Partly an accident. Yeah.

[Billy]

I'm not asking the classic, you know, hey, we're all getting older, so let's take a shot at young people's music. But, but no, I'm not, that's not what I'm asking. But you know, the. You, you, you went out of your way in your youth to assail the corporate state of music. And, and, and, and now it's truly institutionalized.

[Mark Mothersbaugh]

Yeah.

[Billy]

And in my generation, we did our own version of it.

[Mark Mothersbaugh]

Yes, you did.

[Billy]

And for a brief moment, there was some daylight.

[Mark Mothersbaugh]

You saw daylight above the water.

[Billy]

For a brief moment, yeah. For a brief moment.

[Mark Mothersbaugh]

Yeah.

[Billy]

So I'm curious from your perspective, how you view the corporatization of music at this point because it's something that's always been something that you focused on. Is that a fair question?

[Mark Mothersbaugh]

Well, I mean, I think we were always making a kind of a double edged joke about that. Like you are part of it whether you want to be or not. But we were assailing that in a creative way that was satirical and humorous. Even the way we created our own talking points and our own publicity and our own merchandise. It was making fun of publicity and merchandise that was the mainstream of the record business.

[Billy]

But does your heart break a little bit that it. Not that it, it. Maybe it's doomed to fail whoever takes that mountain on. But does your heart break a little bit because you, you maybe you understand that the true effect it has on particularly young people, it's, it's, it sort of sends this weird message that there's no escape. You know, it's like a, like, like a sart play, you know, sure, you're never going to get out of this.

[Mark Mothersbaugh]

Yeah. And that's not a good message to have to tell people.

[Bob Mothersbaugh]

You know, technology is, has totally turned everything upside down. It's, it's such a different world than 1977 when we first were, you know, going out and playing things, playing places and I. The one thing that's good about it, I think is technology has made it so there's so many more people making music and you don't have to do, you don't have to be with record company anymore.

[Billy]

You can like that's, that's, I would argue that's the best part of it.

[Bob Mothersbaugh]

That's the best part of it. Yeah. I mean on a phone, little kids have the same, have better technology than the Beatles had when they did their first album. And they don't have to go to a record company. They just say, okay, I'm opening up a. Yeah, social media site. And.

[Mark Mothersbaugh]

But then what, but then it's like.

[Bob Mothersbaugh]

Then it becomes, well, you're doing, are you doing music because you're trying to get rich? And then that's different than if you're doing music because you love it. Well, and if you're doing music because you love it, there's a lot more people doing that now. And I really.

[Billy]

Okay, I see.

[Bob Mothersbaugh]

I think that's great. And so I hear music, my kids, people, everybody, they play me things that surprise me and I go, oh, that sounds great. I never heard that before. But you don't have a radio, you know. You know, it's not the same thing as when there were 20 songs.

[Mark Mothersbaugh]

I mean, I think the only people. The only reason people are interested in us now is because we did something sincere and creative and original at that time. That a lot of it has withstood the test of time. There's a kernel of validity and they're excited by that. They're certainly not excited by watching Septa Woodgenarians play on stage, except that they can still do it. You know, like.

[Bob Mothersbaugh]

Like, look at that. This could be the last one. Guys are doing it.

[Billy]

I've been, I've. It's not a. It's not a contrarian take. I have just slightly different perspective, which is. I almost feel like at some point it becomes like this is the living example of what freedom actually looks like.

[Mark Mothersbaugh]

There you go.

[Billy]

Like, I like that you're so kind.

[Mark Mothersbaugh]

But I mean it.

[Billy]

I mean it sincerely.

[Bob Mothersbaugh]

It's like, I want to believe that.

[Billy]

No, but I think the freedom of choice. But, but I, but I'm saying it's. It. It becomes more and more rare that there is something that is actually free, clearly. So in that sense, it's. It is truly rare. And I, and, and, and I say this as somebody who's been listening to since 1978. Right. So. And that's what shocks me. And sort of thinking back, reviewing my own version of it, you know, it's. Any fan, would you kind of have your own take on it all? And then watching the documentary, I was like, wow, what they were saying and what they were after in sort of a more of a global sense of the word. It feels even more relevant now. And at the time, it felt really relevant. But the compliment is, it's only a compliment because things really turn to. In so many other ways.

[Mark Mothersbaugh]

Well, you know, we were really controversial and polarizing back then, and there were people who loved us and people that hated us.

[Bob Mothersbaugh]

More of them that hated us.

[Mark Mothersbaugh]

Well, yeah, more in the beginning, you know, like anything new. And then at this point, people go, oh, yeah, de evolution. Yeah, right. It's like. It's real.

[Billy]

They just.

[Mark Mothersbaugh]

Yeah, they're like, oh, yeah, party. De evolution.

[Bob Mothersbaugh]

We're here.

[Billy]

I had one thought. I'm not trying to pitch you on an idea, but I just thought it'd be interesting. The documentary sort of delves into your philosophical underpinnings. We talked about a little bit Dada and stuff like that, but I almost feel like, you know, there's that one book that came out, it was called, like, the Business of the Dead, and it was all about the sort of examining the business model of the dead. In hindsight, I almost Feel it'd be interesting to read a book about your. How your philosophical unity and what you developed and is still poignantly present. Even just talking to you. It'd almost be interesting to actually sort of go down those rabbit holes. Right.

[Mark Mothersbaugh]

Because that would be great because.

[Billy]

It.

[Mark Mothersbaugh]

Wasn'T cynical and it wasn't like planned in a self conscious way.

[Bob Mothersbaugh]

Because there.

[Mark Mothersbaugh]

Were no words as there were no such thing. People didn't talk about the brand in music. They didn't talk about it.

[Billy]

No, that came later.

[Mark Mothersbaugh]

Yeah, right. They didn't talk about postmodernism, they didn't talk about deconstruction. That's all those things we were doing and we were self branded in a real way and we were deconstructing music and, and so in retrospect, the things we did. Right. Are the only reasons we're even here tonight and you're talking to us.

[Billy]

Yeah. I think it would be interesting to have something that was, you know, obviously a documentary is compressed 90, 100 minutes. But I found myself wanting more information about that part of it.

[Mark Mothersbaugh]

I wish I'd been there, but you know, I had no control over that documentary.

[Bob Mothersbaugh]

And they got to somewhere around 90 minutes. You got to like start reeling them in anyhow.

[Billy]

Yeah, it is. This is the modern dopamine clock.

[Mark Mothersbaugh]

It is like we didn't talk about that. It isn't like we didn't on camera have interviews about.

[Billy]

Yeah, I know you have your own YouTube channel too. I found that looking around, which is cool.

[Mark Mothersbaugh]

And that hasn't even been exploited at all yet. Except for interviews about the restoration of our music videos, which is a nice start.

[Billy]

But I think, I think young people, and I don't know anybody under 40 is to me is young at this point. But it's like I think a young artist class would benefit just like it would be reading about like Picasso or Man Ray would benefit from your philosophical take. Because we have all that information from those great surrealists, what they were thinking.

[Mark Mothersbaugh]

And I mean we have a potential platform to do that as you, you. I hope we get to the point that you are here tonight with what you do. I hope we can do that.

[Billy]

You should, I hope you do. Because I think it's, it's, it's, it's a valuable part of the record. And I'm not saying in some sort of museum thing. I think it's just we need that type of information because you lived it.

[Mark Mothersbaugh]

Well, you know, a lot of, A.

[Billy]

Lot of, I call it cosplay. A lot of people like to play rebellious. You know what I mean?

[Mark Mothersbaugh]

Well, I mean, you have a voice in the marketplace right now, and it's important, and that's. And we. We have that potential.

[Billy]

We.

[Mark Mothersbaugh]

People still want to potentially know what we're thinking and saying, and we can do that.

[Billy]

Yeah.

[Bob Mothersbaugh]

Well, if we get that show, Bob, you can be the house band.

[Mark Mothersbaugh]

Okay.

[Bob Mothersbaugh]

All right.

[Billy]

I want to touch briefly. I mean, there's so many things we could talk about, but I have my own reflection, which is why I'm sort of offering this up. But having your father. I can't remember his General Boy.

[Bob Mothersbaugh]

General Boy. Yeah.

[Billy]

I just think that's just the greatest thing ever.

[Bob Mothersbaugh]

And that was totally an accident, too. We didn't really set out to hire him, but then it turned out that he had closet aspirations, and it just.

[Billy]

Wouldn't you at least take picture the first time you go, hey, we want you to.

[Mark Mothersbaugh]

Well, we had this guy, Chris Barron. He was cast as the general, and we were going to shoot him.

[Bob Mothersbaugh]

He was about our age.

[Mark Mothersbaugh]

He was a couple, and he bailed, he freaked, and he bolted. And we were in crisis, and we asked Mark's father if he'd do it. And it was the perfect moment. He was great.

[Billy]

The reason I bring it up is I remember seeing him on God knows what. Television, right?

[Bob Mothersbaugh]

Yeah.

[Billy]

And I had no idea, you know? But I said, it makes it even.

[Mark Mothersbaugh]

More subversive, you know what I mean?

[Billy]

Because I thought he was just some guy that you got. And he was perfect at playing that guy.

[Bob Mothersbaugh]

Oh, my God. Well, after he was. He was on Saturday Night Live because he was in that first film.

[Billy]

Okay.

[Bob Mothersbaugh]

And so he saw himself on tv, and then that was it. He showed up at concerts in full gear, and people. And we'd have people come backstage, go, there's a man out by the back door, an old guy who said, he's. Let's say he's your father. He said, he's General Boy. And he'd come in and go, I wrote Mark, Jerry, Bob. I wrote this thing I want to read to the people before now.

[Billy]

Who was writing his dialogue, though.

[Bob Mothersbaugh]

Oh, Jerry wrote most of his dialogue.

[Mark Mothersbaugh]

So good.

[Bob Mothersbaugh]

Yeah.

[Mark Mothersbaugh]

But then he started contributing.

[Bob Mothersbaugh]

Oh, yeah. Okay.

[Mark Mothersbaugh]

Was that a good thing or a. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.

[Bob Mothersbaugh]

He had. He had these lyrics called Enough Said.

[Mark Mothersbaugh]

Yeah.

[Bob Mothersbaugh]

And it was put all the leaders in a. In a ring and let them fight it out. Enough Said. And we thought, oh, my God, these are so deep. We made a song out of it. And that changed.

[Mark Mothersbaugh]

Well, the apple doesn't fall far from The Streets.

[Bob Mothersbaugh]

Then it just went even one step deeper with him. And he found a band in Akron that were. They were like a country western band or something. Yeah. And he started getting them to take his lyrics and write music to it. And then he was sending us that stuff and we were like, oh, man, there really should be a General Boy album. It's like, it's shocking that we didn't do that, but could happen.

[Billy]

You never know. God bless. I just have such a fond memory of just like, because you would bring in these, obviously there'd be the bougie. You know, it's like these other characters were part of your self created world and he was this outlying force. So the fact that he was a family member to me is just makes.

[Mark Mothersbaugh]

Well, you know, we were making fun of patriarchal figures, you know, that we grew up with.

[Billy]

We all grew up with that guy.

[Mark Mothersbaugh]

That guy in the 50s and 60s that knew everything and had been in.

[Billy]

The war and been in the war.

[Mark Mothersbaugh]

Yeah. It's like, what's the. The Team America where Trey Parker, Matt Stone skewer everything and they have Mr. Spotswood and Mr. Spotswood, that character is the ultimate, like, know it all 60s guy with that patriarchal voice.

[Billy]

Yeah, like, you know, Gary the Night.

[Mark Mothersbaugh]

Yeah, yeah, that's. That's what we were. We were making fun of.

[Billy]

Yeah.

[Mark Mothersbaugh]

Because we'd all been victimized by these authoritarian figures growing up, you know, that tell you what to do and take away your liberty.

[Billy]

The impact of cable television, I know I referenced it, Reese, a little bit with the human highway thing, but it seemed like you were on cable television, like a lot. Is that my own impression or was that real?

[Mark Mothersbaugh]

That was our only outlet.

[Bob Mothersbaugh]

Yeah. Cable television, when it first came out, they were like, we don't make any money. We can't pay you anything. That's how MTV came up with that diabolical system where people made their films. Then MTV didn't pay you anything.

[Billy]

Yeah.

[Bob Mothersbaugh]

And you never got any. Anything back from it. So it's like that totally changed what it meant to be in a band. Like for Devo, you know, before we. We were before mtv. So by the time we got to do three albums and by the time we did our third one, we, we. We had Whip It on it, which kept us around for a couple more albums and. But, you know, then after, after the. In the early 80s, it's like if you were in a band, you had to have a single that was also a video and somebody had to pay for that. And the record companies didn't want to pay.

[Mark Mothersbaugh]

You had to have a hit on the top 100 going up or MTV wouldn't program it.

[Bob Mothersbaugh]

And you. And if they didn't program it, then you only had that one album. That was it. Yeah, so it was, it just made it really nasty.

[Billy]

You, you referenced that MTV pulled this coup where they got everyone to contribute content for free.

[Bob Mothersbaugh]

Yeah.

[Billy]

Do you remember, I feel like it was in the late 80s where the record labels, Warner was one of the labels. They basically said they were going to start their own mtv. Do you remember that?

[Mark Mothersbaugh]

Yeah, yeah.

[Billy]

So the quick version is.

[Mark Mothersbaugh]

Didn't work.

[Billy]

Three. Well, three of the major labels came out and said, we're going to start our own version mtv and we're not going to give MTV free content anymore.

[Mark Mothersbaugh]

Right.

[Billy]

They did this big announcement and the next day MTV came out and said, if you do that, any of the bands you play on your channel, we will no longer play on mtv. And within the week, the labels folded and gave up all their power to MTV at that point. Which is why in. In the, in the, in the 90s going into 2000s, you saw artists making million dollar videos because that was the only. If you weren't on mtv, that was the end of the label. That was the end of your musical life.

[Mark Mothersbaugh]

And then suddenly videos weren't even anything about mtv. It was all the reality TV program.

[Billy]

Well, that's, they. That's when they found out they could do double the ratings with a talk show or whatever, or just kids. What was that show that they had a. Their first reality show?

[Mark Mothersbaugh]

I can't remember what was the first one? Yeah, yeah, like little acting badly.

[Billy]

Tell me, tell me how you really feel.

[Mark Mothersbaugh]

Well, I mean it was even. It was like dumb. Here you go. It's like, yeah, I met dumb. I love this show.

[Billy]

It's a general question, but just because as I said before, when you would present yourself live is what comes to mind. Because that's was my way I interface with you. I'd see you.

[Mark Mothersbaugh]

Well, that's the most control you have, right?

[Billy]

Well, I'd see on Fridays. I remember that was that one time where you're doing the. It was like the, the treadmills. So I just thought this is so brilliant. It's like I. That stuff really still sticks with me.

[Bob Mothersbaugh]

Okay, go.

[Billy]

Well, they're mad at me. We don't want to talk about that. That band got mad at me because they were one of the first bands to figure out that they could use YouTube as a marketing thing. And they had that video Was like the. One of the first music videos that went viral and they got mad at me because I said, isn't it a shame that they can get 24 million views but they're not selling any records? And they took that as a dis. But I didn't mean it as a dip.

[Mark Mothersbaugh]

You just said truth.

[Billy]

Well, no, but what I was really trying to say is once you get into where the now the new thing is to get people to watch your video and it doesn't convert to record sales, well, what good is the video?

[Bob Mothersbaugh]

That sounds like a dis.

[Billy]

I might be wrong. Well, I have this other thing of questions here just for you, but I was going to say anything but.

[Bob Mothersbaugh]

But.

[Billy]

Take me, take me a little bit through because again, when I'd see you, you, you would present as an, maybe it's a very deagable word, organism. You came across as a singular organism that way. You moved it. Okay, so how did, how did it work? How does that work? In band practice or in, in, in, in the studio? Was, was there a. Was there something that I'm missing? Were you, were you as aligned in that way or was it, was it, was it a bit of a scrum behind the scenes?

[Mark Mothersbaugh]

No, for a long time it was real.

[Bob Mothersbaugh]

Yeah. Matter of fact, it's like people like Brian Eno, I've heard him say they were the hardest band I ever tried to produce. They were too intense. And I do remember him and David Bowie would wait till we left the studio and then they'd record extra tracks onto our. But we already knew what we wanted. You know, I'd already mixed all of our music and all we wanted to do was have a professional quality version of, of what we had. We weren't looking for them to change it. And so we'd go to mix a song down, you know, and you know how it, how it works. You know, every. You get all the settings and everything and then.

[Billy]

And there's always trying to cheat their, their level.

[Mark Mothersbaugh]

He never did that.

[Bob Mothersbaugh]

He never did that. But then you get, they go, okay, let's record it onto the two track stereo. That will be the master recording. So they start the tapes and we'd all be standing there, you know, you stare straight ahead because there's two stereo speakers. And I remember reaching up and going like this on the Bowie and the Eno tracks. And on the side I'd see Eno go like that and look at me and I'd just pretend I didn't see him. And we'd record the song and he didn't know how to deal with it. He just, like. We just said, okay, that was it. And we all shake hands and high five.

[Billy]

Have you ever gone back to sort of revisit their musical contribution?

[Bob Mothersbaugh]

Yeah, I kept all of the 24 track masters and we were transferring them, and I had forgotten there were all these tracks. I'm looking at this beautiful Brian Eno handwriting because it was before automation. So it's like he did all the EQ settings and all the effects settings and everything in this beautiful. And then I'm looking, it said things like Brian's vocals, David Bowie's vocal, David's vocals, David's guitar part. I'm like, what's that stuff? And so I kind of got the message to him through a mutual friend that, would you want to take the tapes back and mix them the way you were going to mix them? And he just kind of said, no, that was it. It was two letters. Yeah.

[Billy]

Whatever you thought about. Seems like an interesting alternate universe. Like, if you guys release those, we could do it.

[Mark Mothersbaugh]

I don't think it'd be different enough. I mean, Brian had moved on from the guy that we loved in Roxy Music with the, you know, the boas and the makeup, and he had become this English gentleman that was totally Zen. He was into Zen. He had created oblique strategies, and he'd make us actually take the cards.

[Bob Mothersbaugh]

Yeah, he did that. Then we kind of made fun of.

[Mark Mothersbaugh]

It, and I. Yeah, well, because we were Dada and we were, you know.

[Billy]

We were already there.

[Mark Mothersbaugh]

Yeah, we. Well, I mean, we were disrespectful of everything on some level.

[Billy]

Okay, that's shocking to me, but.

[Bob Mothersbaugh]

Yeah, well, I mean, you know, I remember he had this one deck that was like his deck of oblique strategies, but there was all. And he was, like, trying to give them to us. But I remember one day before he got in, where we recorded at was at Connie Plank Studio in Neinkirchen, Germany. And it was a studio that Eno liked a lot, but the recording studio was in a converted pigsty.

[Mark Mothersbaugh]

It was a barn.

[Bob Mothersbaugh]

It was a barn. Yeah. And there were, like, sheep outside and things like that. But I remember I took. There was one blank card in the oblique strategies, like, aha. Oh, there's nothing on. And so I drew a rat and I put it on the card and I put it in one of the rat traps that were in the room. And I kept waiting for him to see it, and he wasn't seeing it. And I go, what's that, Brian? And he looks over and he sees it and he. And I think it was his special oblique strategies because he looked at it and he was just totally glum and he didn't really like.

[Mark Mothersbaugh]

I just felt like he felt attacked, he felt disrespected.

[Bob Mothersbaugh]

And I felt like, I wish I wouldn't have done that.

[Mark Mothersbaugh]

And it was unfortunate because we loved the guy. We really liked him. It's just that he had moved on and was trying to add beauty to our sound when we were stridently.

[Bob Mothersbaugh]

He put some stuff in it, though, you know, like in Too Much Paranoia, he did something with an even tone.

[Mark Mothersbaugh]

And we included those things. Included those. He does some great stuff. And he sings harmonies on Uncontrollable Urge. He's there.

[Bob Mothersbaugh]

Yeah. And I do got to say this about him. He really helped me figure out what I wanted to do on synths because of a Roxy Music song that was, I think, their first out. Roxy Music's first album was their best. And Brian wrote these incredible lyrics, you know, like. But there was a song that was kind of like a throwaway called Editions of you.

[Mark Mothersbaugh]

Yeah.

[Bob Mothersbaugh]

And, you know, it's like kind of a. Whatever it sounds like it was like a. I don't know, like a show tune or something. And they're going through and then that. Everybody takes a solo, the sax player and the guitar player, and then the synth player does. And he did a solo that. When I heard it, I said, that's. That's the way things are going to go.

[Mark Mothersbaugh]

It's brilliant.

[Bob Mothersbaugh]

It was like this incredible tonal type approach or.

[Mark Mothersbaugh]

Yeah, yeah.

[Bob Mothersbaugh]

It's amazing. You got to go, listen.

[Mark Mothersbaugh]

And soaring and bent. There's nothing. There's nothing but bent notes in it.

[Bob Mothersbaugh]

And that's why we. When people said, who would you want to have produce you? And we didn't know what that even meant. And we'd go, Brian Eno or David Bowie? And then they both. Yeah.

[Billy]

And watching the documentary, it struck me that he was obviously struggling with producing you. At least that seemed to be.

[Mark Mothersbaugh]

Well, he hadn't been the big time producer that he became.

[Billy]

Yeah. But I think the reason I say that I found it interesting was here's somebody who was part of. Of it reminds me of some of the struggles in the Dada movement. Like somebody would have a breakthrough and he was part of the team that had a breakthrough. And then the next person that would come along and have a breakthrough, somebody would argue and say, no, no, that's the wrong type of breakthrough.

[Mark Mothersbaugh]

Yeah, well, that's what happened.

[Bob Mothersbaugh]

There was some of that yeah, yeah.

[Billy]

I mean, you know, like, people talk about Elvis being the seminal breakthrough moment. 56.

[Mark Mothersbaugh]

Sure.

[Billy]

By 63, it's like he's a young. And here come the Beatles. You know, it's like, you know, that's the beauty of rock and roll. It doesn't sleep. It is always looking for the next thing. Yep. So that was observation.

[Bob Mothersbaugh]

Yeah.

[Billy]

Walk me through. You guys are smart. So you knew you were getting into the corporate mall with what you were doing. The minute you signed your name on a piece of paper, you knew you were in for it at some point. Yeah, but there's the kind of. The funny, like, okay, I guess we're in the machine now. And then there's the day you wake up. You're like, okay, now I'm stuck in the machine and I can't get out of the machine. And I'm used to this money and the touring and.

[Mark Mothersbaugh]

Or how do I stay in the machine?

[Billy]

All. All of the above. Right. So how did that work with you internally? Because at least in the. In the documentary, it seems to intimate that it kind of not broke the spirit, but it kind of took a bit of the wind out of your sails. Is that. Is that accurate?

[Mark Mothersbaugh]

Yeah, it's just conveniently chopped up and. And ended like, we didn't continue. And then it's in a lockbox and we never did something for everybody and that we're not moving forward now. It's just like, yeah, here it is.

[Billy]

But I guess I'm. It's. It's not revisionist. It's just. Take me back to that. That moment. Because, you know, it's. I don't know, it's. You know, it's like that poem, you know, if you love something, set it free in the butterfly. You know, I mean, you guys were the butterfly. You were free in. In so many ways that so few bands ever are. But you were signed to a label in a time when there wasn't a lot, you know, you did. You couldn't put your stuff on SoundCloud.

[Bob Mothersbaugh]

You know, the first three albums, in some ways were so much easier than the other ones. I mean, we recorded the first two out. We wrote the first two albums in Akron, Ohio, and we wrote the third one in Hollywood. But at that point, they had just labeled, pretty much had written us off as just weirdos that we signed because of Bowie and. And Dino. They talked us into it. And. And it was after the third album, you know, the third album had Whippet on it.

[Mark Mothersbaugh]

Keep going.

[Bob Mothersbaugh]

Okay. He knows the story. So. So it was after the third one. Maybe he's, he's overwhelmed, you know, because this is, this is the, this is where it happens. Like, we were. We were in this, in a scenario where we went in to do our fourth album. We were writing it and we were working on it, and there would be people from the record company coming in and popping their heads in the door and going, hey, how you doing? We'd go, we're doing fine. And they'd never shown up before. I mean, I remember we played the Forum and there were people from Warner Brothers who said, I didn't even know you were on our label. You know, it was that kind of a thing before that. And then after Whip it, it became. They said, well, go ahead, good luck, but whatever you do, do another Whip It. And we're like, well, we never thought about music that way.

[Billy]

You didn't even think of Whip it as a single when you wrote it?

[Bob Mothersbaugh]

No. You know, it was kind of responding to Thomas Pynchon, really. There was like in Gravity's Rainbow, there were. There were this very serious story that's really complicated, and then somebody would be looking out the window and they'd be distracted by little kids playing a nursery rhyme game. And he'd go through the whole nursery rhyme, the poem of it in his book, and then it would go back into the complex story. And then Jerry broke down in tears and he was sobbing and inconsolable and that's.

[Mark Mothersbaugh]

That was the end of an amazing story.

[Bob Mothersbaugh]

Yeah.

[Mark Mothersbaugh]

I don't know what's being said here, but. Yeah, no, I, I apologize. We have a very, very sick Savannah cat. And that was my wife. Yeah, the Savannah cat ate a meta medical pill that's meant for my dog, this Rovera, this totally toxic and poisonous to a cat. And the cat's a 22 pound Savannah cat.

[Billy]

And anyway, is a cat okay?

[Mark Mothersbaugh]

We don't know.

[Billy]

It's.

[Mark Mothersbaugh]

Yeah, it's.

[Bob Mothersbaugh]

Is she ready to pump its stomach if she has to?

[Mark Mothersbaugh]

It's an er, but it looks okay. I mean, it looks like, you know, because we're, we're sorry about that.

[Billy]

We're very involved in animal charity in this, in this house.

[Bob Mothersbaugh]

Are there any veterinarians in the audience?

[Mark Mothersbaugh]

I'm sure it probably is.

[Billy]

We work with a charity here called Paw Chicago. Okay. And Paw Chicago is a no kill shelter. So they'll stay with the animals for three, four years if they're not adopt. Oh, that's an amazing organization.

[Bob Mothersbaugh]

That is amazing. That's great.

[Mark Mothersbaugh]

That's great.

[Billy]

So we're it's so you got. You got a lot of animal lovers in this. In this zip code. If, if, if. If the idea was, okay, look, if we want to get what we want to get across, we have to work within this system. You succeeded in that system, you know, and even if it broke you, you still got plenty through, because we're still talking about it. Yeah, but do you view, if we're talking about it completely as a subversive mindset or a subversive movement? Do you feel you. You won more than you lost?

[Mark Mothersbaugh]

That'd be optimistic. And maybe. Maybe it's true. Only because recently, when we play, there are three generations of people out there. There are the people of our generation that are about to croak, and then there's their sons and daughters, and now their sons and daughters that discovered us and love us in our 20s. So we are the new wave Grateful Dead. And that goes back to the book. Yeah.

[Billy]

There's a business modality there that. That's what I would argue, is that your business modality. And it wouldn't work without the music. We know that.

[Mark Mothersbaugh]

Well, of course.

[Billy]

No, but I'm saying that very emphatically. Like, if you were a band, it definitely wouldn't work.

[Bob Mothersbaugh]

Yeah.

[Mark Mothersbaugh]

You would think so, no matter how.

[Bob Mothersbaugh]

Strong your hope is. Yeah.

[Mark Mothersbaugh]

Because there's got to be proof of concept.

[Billy]

That's what I'm saying. You prove the concept that the music, of course, is always the leading edge.

[Mark Mothersbaugh]

Right.

[Billy]

But the philosophical thing, I think, is so valuable. I mean, certainly its influence on Gen X, my generation is unmistakable.

[Bob Mothersbaugh]

Okay.

[Mark Mothersbaugh]

Yeah.

[Billy]

Did you feel that at the time?

[Mark Mothersbaugh]

No, I didn't.

[Bob Mothersbaugh]

We were too close.

[Billy]

Yeah.

[Bob Mothersbaugh]

At the time. And, you know, you see it more and people talk about it more, and, you know, people like Nirvana covered us. I. Somebody worked for me for two years, this younger girl, and one day she said, you wrote Turnaround. I thought that was. I thought Kurt Cobain wrote that. So, you know.

[Billy]

But you feel. I don't know. Take a word. Vindicated, proof of concept, like, pick your word.

[Mark Mothersbaugh]

Vindicate is good.

[Bob Mothersbaugh]

Yeah, We're. Okay.

[Mark Mothersbaugh]

You're very good at labeling.

[Billy]

And. And I worked with Elliot Roberts.

[Mark Mothersbaugh]

Yeah.

[Bob Mothersbaugh]

Yeah.

[Billy]

He's still mad at me, wherever he is.

[Mark Mothersbaugh]

Yeah.

[Billy]

Okay. Last little bit. And I'm. And I'm not asking for the trendy take. I'm more like, give me the devo version of where AI takes us. Right. If we're in decline, which many people feel we're an empire in decline, and we work in the cultural end of that decline. Right. Is that fair? Okay, so where does AI take us now?

[Mark Mothersbaugh]

How. Right. In other words, humans are in decline as the dominant species. They've actually declassified themselves by creating AI which is the extension of their own duality, their own problems.

[Billy]

Did you see this thing recently where somebody asked an AI and said, if you gain control or power, will you work against humanity? And the AI said, well, I'll probably keep you around as a curiosity, but in terms of functional value, no, you have none. And I would, if it was up to me, I would get rid of you.

[Mark Mothersbaugh]

Well, because we're the problem.

[Bob Mothersbaugh]

And the, and in some ways, that's true. We are the problem. We're the one species that is out of touch with nature and out of harmony. We're out of harmony and we're, you know, I hope it's not by destroying humans is the only way to save planet Earth.

[Billy]

Well, there's always that Star Trek, it was a, what's Twilight Zone episode, You know, where it's like the most dangerous animal and then it's, you look and it's the mirror.

[Mark Mothersbaugh]

Yeah. Or Outer Limits, where they're all altering themselves to be, quote, beautiful.

[Bob Mothersbaugh]

Yeah, yeah. My favorite one is how to Serve Man. And you find out at the end, don't go on that rocket ship. Don't take off. It's a cook. Boo.

[Mark Mothersbaugh]

I love those simplistic things.

[Billy]

So good. Right? But where's, where does AI take music now? I mean, go, go just a little bit deeper because I, I, I think you're uniquely voiced to talk about it from the standpoint of, okay, is, is it, does it become a tool of subversion? Or does ultimately, is there, is there the devo of the future, not you, that steps aside and says they basically.

[Mark Mothersbaugh]

Do right now, there's nothing more devo than AI music because you just hear all these cliches being mishmashed together. It's hilarious.

[Bob Mothersbaugh]

It's like when the Mellotron first came out and American Federation of Musicians sent out letters to everybody and said, fellow musicians do not use a Mellotron. You know, taking away work from violinists and flute players and horn players. And the reality is, the thing never sound, you know, it was true. It was recordings of real instruments. But every time a violinist plays a note, you know, it's different. They're breathing different, their heart's beating different, the temperature is different in the room, and every single one sounds slightly different. And people notice that stuff. So my feeling is, is that it. It'll be for a while. It'll be, you know, a novelty, and there will be ways to use it to make. Give people more power that are writing.

[Billy]

Music, for instance, on some level, are you still not. You're not on some level. Am I getting you right? You're still endorsing the human agency in this situation?

[Mark Mothersbaugh]

Sounds like it. I am. Yeah.

[Bob Mothersbaugh]

So if. If you just start listening to music that was written on machines only and. And that keeps you content, then. Then maybe you're lucky. I don't know.

[Mark Mothersbaugh]

But I. I just haven't heard the AI written hit yet. But what happens when we do?

[Billy]

Oh, then are we using it or.

[Mark Mothersbaugh]

Is it using us?

[Billy]

Oh, it's coming. Yeah, it's absolutely coming.

[Mark Mothersbaugh]

Yeah.

[Bob Mothersbaugh]

Well, you know, but then when you say hit.

[Mark Mothersbaugh]

Well, in other words, something about people, like, people love it.

[Bob Mothersbaugh]

Well, people love a lot of what people call hits now. Sounds like it could be AI anyhow. A lot of.

[Mark Mothersbaugh]

You mean it could be. Sound like Taylor Swift?

[Bob Mothersbaugh]

I didn't say that.

[Billy]

But he doesn't want, you know, 8, 000 Swifties showing up at his.

[Bob Mothersbaugh]

But, you know, I'm just saying that I think it's a tool that is very, very sophisticated and I'm curious to see where it goes. Yeah.

[Billy]

Okay. Last couple things, I swear I had the distinction in the 90s of inducting pink Floyd in the Rock and Roll hall of Fame. Wow. And the reason I bring that up is they said, you know, the Rock and Roll hall of Fame committee or whatever said so you could say whatever you want. And I did. I was raised on Devo, so I saw it as a unique opportunity to speak to all these people in the room. I certainly wanted to pay tribute to the band going in, but I was like, I have a unique thing. I have one chance to say it to all of them. And they're all. It was Mo, Austin and Elliot and all, you know, that old Mo is alive. Then they were all there. That's about 96 or 97. Okay. So they're all there. And the one hook line, and this is where I tie back to you, is the one hook line I said is. Isn't it amazing that one of the biggest, or probably maybe the biggest album of all time in Dark side of the Moon wasn't voiced for radio? And. And. And, you know, doesn't that strike anybody as odd that we're celebrating a band that really wasn't particularly about singles Right.

[Mark Mothersbaugh]

At all?

[Billy]

And, you know, you kind of get the knowing, like, yeah, sure. And I go and, oh, by the way, I haven't forgotten about disco. And I know you're all still in the room, and I got one of those. One of those laughs like you've.

[Mark Mothersbaugh]

I love that because it was.

[Billy]

Thank you. Because it was such a rare moment to say, look, in my world, I grew up valuing this because it wasn't that thing, right? And you're also the people that tried to cram all this plastic down my throat when I was a kid. And thank God I had bands like you to say, no, there is. There is this other way of looking at this. So in my parlance, I call it the thing that should not be. Devo, should not be. But you are. You broke through. You got through the wall or the. You know, their magical land where everybody's perfect. And you did it with such grace. It's shocking to me. So thank you for that. How do you.

[Mark Mothersbaugh]

So kind, so kind. Billy, you know what? I love that we need somebody with a hillbilly voice as if they're in deliverance to go. Devo, you should not be.

[Billy]

But you are.

[Mark Mothersbaugh]

I know. But you are.

[Bob Mothersbaugh]

Yeah.

[Mark Mothersbaugh]

That'S good.

[Billy]

I love it. I think that's. I think.

[Mark Mothersbaugh]

Yeah, I think that's. You wrapped it up.

[Billy]

Do you have a good time?

[Bob Mothersbaugh]

I sure did.

[Billy]

Did you have a good time, Bob?

[Bob Mothersbaugh]

I sure did.

[Mark Mothersbaugh]

Thank you, everybody.