Diane Warren | The Magnificent Others with Billy Corgan

Summary

Podcast Title: The Magnificent Others with Billy Corgan
Episode: Diane Warren
Release Date: March 5, 2025

Summary:

Introduction

In this enlightening episode of The Magnificent Others, host Billy Corgan engages in an in-depth conversation with legendary songwriter Diane Warren. The discussion delves into Diane's prolific career, her unique creative process, her experiences navigating the evolving music industry, and the personal philosophies that have driven her success. With a career spanning over four decades and approximately 1,500 songs penned, Diane shares foundational insights that have cemented her status as a formidable force in music.

Diane's Writing Environment

Diane Warren begins by describing her personal sanctuary for songwriting—the room she affectionately refers to as her "disgusting writing room" (00:34). Contrary to Billy’s term "the Cave," Diane embraces the chaos and comfort of her space, highlighting its significance in her creative journey. She emphasizes the importance of feeling safe and comfortable to foster creativity:

Diane Warren (00:17): "The data that matters is. Does it make the hair on your arm stand up? Does it make you feel something?"

Daily Routine and Tools

Diane outlines her disciplined daily routine, starting her day around 9 a.m. (00:59). She discusses her preference for solitude in the morning, focusing solely on writing before transitioning to other activities like recording or meetings. Her toolkit includes drum machines, keyboards, and a grand piano, which she alternates within her workspace to inspire different musical elements.

Songwriting Process and Techniques

The conversation shifts to Diane's meticulous songwriting process. She prefers to work on one song at a time, ensuring each piece receives her full attention to maximize its potential:

Diane Warren (03:23): "I like to be comfortable. And then I could just not think about where I am because, you know, when we write, we kind of..."

Diane avoids writing lyrics before the melody, contrasting with Billy's approach of prioritizing melody first. She strives to craft songs that resonate emotionally, aiming for authenticity and depth without overanalyzing:

Diane Warren (25:08): "I want them to sound like they could be hits. I want them to all connect. I want to write songs."

Early Influences and Career Beginnings

Diane reflects on her musical upbringing, heavily influenced by her father’s support. She recounts early experiences like meeting the Beatles and her first encounters with influential songwriters such as Carole King and the Holland-Dozier-Holland team. These influences shaped her understanding of songwriting as both an art and a craft:

Diane Warren (08:46): "I think I've allowed that to happen. I try not to now, but I try not to write a bad song."

Her relentless pursuit began in her teenage years, facing initial rejections but continually presenting new work until gaining acceptance and recognition.

Persistence and Relentlessness

Diane’s unwavering determination is a recurring theme. She describes herself as "relentless," a trait that has been pivotal in her longevity and success in the music industry:

John Doe (13:46): "Relentless."

Diane Warren (13:48): "Yes, I am relentless."

This relentlessness is further underscored by her continuous drive to improve and never rest on her laurels:

Diane Warren (14:22): "Talent without work doesn't mean. Work without hard work without talent doesn't mean. But if you."

Changing Music Industry Dynamics

Diane offers a critical perspective on the transformation of the music industry from her early days to the present. She contrasts the more organic, less corporate environment of the past with today's data-driven approach, heavily influenced by platforms like TikTok:

Diane Warren (20:36): "Doors can open, but if your TikTok numbers aren't high."

She expresses concern over the current focus on metrics over emotional resonance, advocating for songs that truly move listeners:

Diane Warren (20:17): "The data that matters is. Does it make the hair on your arm stand up? Does it make you feel something?"

Collaborations and Hits

Highlighting her extensive catalog, Diane mentions numerous artists who have performed her songs, including Celine Dion, Whitney Houston, Taylor Swift, and Aerosmith. She discusses the satisfaction and surprise of seeing her songs become hits, often finding success despite initial doubts:

Diane Warren (25:08): "I want to write a great song. Hopefully, it's a great single, too."

Her ability to write across diverse genres and for various artists speaks to her versatility and deep understanding of musical expression.

Genre Flexibility and Musical Projects

Diane touches upon her willingness to explore different genres, though she admits limitations in areas like rap or death metal. She also discusses her ventures into musical projects, such as the upcoming Disney music show How We Became the Biggest Band in the World, where she writes authentic hit songs tailored to the characters:

Diane Warren (26:09): "So it is kind of writing to order, you know."

Personal Insights and Challenges

The discussion delves into Diane’s personal experiences, including her interactions with therapy and her reflections on being potentially on the autism spectrum. She shares anecdotes about negotiating house prices with David Geffen’s boyfriend and navigating her relationship with her parents:

Diane Warren (38:39): "I think we’re probably all on the spectrum that do this."

Her candidness about personal struggles and her determination to overcome them provides a deeper understanding of the person behind the prolific songwriting.

Views on Love and Idealization

Exploring the emotional core of her work, Diane explains that her songs often embody different characters and perspectives, without anchoring them to an idealized version of love or a specific person. This allows her to create authentic and relatable songs for a wide audience:

Diane Warren (41:44): "I can fall in love in every song because I could be in that."

She emphasizes the importance of authenticity over idealization, allowing each song to stand on its own narrative and emotional weight.

Conclusion

Diane Warren’s conversation with Billy Corgan offers a comprehensive look into the mind of one of the most successful songwriters in the industry. Her dedication, adaptability, and authentic approach to music creation have not only produced an extensive catalog of beloved songs but have also left an indelible mark on the music landscape. This episode serves as both an inspiration and a masterclass in the art of songwriting, highlighting the profound impact of passion and perseverance.

Notable Quotes:

• Diane Warren (00:17): "Does it make the hair on your arm stand up? Does it make you feel something?"

• Diane Warren (02:17): "Why is it weird that it's weird."

• Diane Warren (13:48): "Yes, I am relentless."

• Diane Warren (20:17): "Does it make the hair on your arm stand up? Does it make you feel something?"

• Diane Warren (25:08): "I want to write a great song. Hopefully, it's a great single, too."

• Diane Warren (38:39): "I think we’re probably all on the spectrum that do this."

• Diane Warren (41:44): "I can fall in love in every song because I could be in that."

Timestamp References:

• Introduction: General overview of the episode and guests.
• Diane's Writing Environment: 00:34
• Daily Routine and Tools: 00:59
• Songwriting Process and Techniques: 03:23
• Early Influences and Career Beginnings: 08:46
• Persistence and Relentlessness: 13:48
• Changing Music Industry Dynamics: 20:36
• Collaborations and Hits: 25:08
• Genre Flexibility and Musical Projects: 26:09
• Personal Insights and Challenges: 38:39
• Views on Love and Idealization: 41:44

This structured and detailed summary encapsulates the essence of Diane Warren's insights and experiences, providing listeners with a comprehensive understanding of her journey and contributions to the music industry.

Transcript

[John Doe]

Who's singing when you're writing?

[Diane Warren]

Because, well, sadly, it's me.

[John Doe]

I'm always oriented to. I gotta sing my own song.

[Diane Warren]

Yeah, you're lucky. You're a great singer.

[John Doe]

I mean, you are a song assassin. I love it.

[Diane Warren]

I love that.

[John Doe]

Is it 1500 songs at this point, you're up in Irving Berlin territory for songs written.

[Diane Warren]

That's a lot of songs.

[John Doe]

That's what the Internet says.

[Diane Warren]

1500, wow. You know, the data that matters is. Does it make the hair on your arm stand up? Does it make you feel something?

[John Doe]

So I'm intrigued about the Cave. Do you have a name for the Cave?

[Diane Warren]

I mean, I. I didn't name it the Cave, so it's a place I've been.

[John Doe]

But what do you call it?

[Diane Warren]

I just call it my disgusting writing room. I don't know. I mean, you know, Robert Hilburn one time wrote an article and used to be called the Calendar. It was a magazine. It was a really long time ago. And he called it the Cave. And so. But I never called it. I mean, I don't call it anything, really. Just called my room, you know, I've had it for almost 40 years.

[John Doe]

I've seen the pictures.

[Diane Warren]

Yeah, it's kind of. I mean, I like it in there. I was there today. I start every day there, you know.

[John Doe]

What time do you start every day?

[Diane Warren]

About nine. A little after nine.

[John Doe]

And is it okay? What's your normal workday? Because I read some.

[Diane Warren]

I just, you know, my normal workdays, I show up like around 9:00 and just start writing. And, you know, then I also have a building where my studio is a couple of blocks away. So I usually start out at, you.

[John Doe]

Know, my place and then go record whatever. You're writing.

[Diane Warren]

Yeah, not necessarily recording, but I go have lunch and then I might have a meeting or I might, you know. Like today I was just recording something before I got here. So, you know, it's all kind of. But I like to start out the day just by myself. Like, I have my company. It used to be at that. At that place.

[John Doe]

Okay.

[Diane Warren]

And then the. The COVID shutdown happened and. And everybody stayed home. And I was like. But I went there every day. I go. I really like it. I like being here. I like being here by myself. And I just bought the other place and I was making that to be where the company would move to.

[John Doe]

So moved out to just a bunch of keyboards, drum machines. Like, what is your kind of work palette?

[Diane Warren]

Yeah, drum machine. Like, you know, keyboards. And I have a Couple of rooms in my old place. And I have a piano, a grand piano in one room. So I kind of just kind of float around both. All those rooms, and then I go to the other one and I write in the studio sometimes.

[John Doe]

See, you touch my heart when you talk like this. Because you and I have a very similar experience of just thousands and thousands of hours by ourselves.

[Diane Warren]

Is that weird that it's weird? It's weird. Like, people go, God, you write songs by yourself. I go, yeah. Why is. It's weird that it's weird.

[John Doe]

It's my happiest place.

[Diane Warren]

Me too. Me too. Like, it's like, that's where all the.

[John Doe]

Dreams come true or something, right?

[Diane Warren]

Yes. I love it.

[John Doe]

So I really, I. When you're talking, I can feel it, like.

[Diane Warren]

Yeah, you get it?

[John Doe]

Yeah.

[Diane Warren]

But no, it's so weird now. There's so many people. Like, there'll be like 10 people in a room. Like a writing camp. I'm like that, you know, I mean, I. You know, can I talk like that? They'll be believing me a lot. That's fine. But, yeah.

[John Doe]

So to paint the picture for our great audience, like, describe. I know there's stuff all over the floor. There's cassettes.

[Diane Warren]

Yeah, there's.

[John Doe]

I don't know, is there DAT tapes?

[Diane Warren]

Are we going like, oh, there's dats, there's cassettes. There's everything. I mean, it's like. There's probably like dinosaur eggs in there. I don't know. I've been there so long, who knows what's there? I'm either. I'm probably immune to every disease because, like, I've been there for 40 years, probably.

[John Doe]

Yeah, it's all like mold. And.

[Diane Warren]

Yeah, the mold won't even go in there.

[John Doe]

Do you. When you go into write, are you focused on one idea that captures your attention? Are you in a free associative state? And then go back and review.

[Diane Warren]

I mean, I like just to be. Work on one song at one time because I have to give it my full attention because I have to really make that song as good as possible.

[John Doe]

I hate this question, but I'm such a fan of your writing. I'm gonna ask the question I don't like.

[Diane Warren]

Thank you.

[John Doe]

Which is Melody. You know what's the first thing?

[Diane Warren]

Generally, I like to have a concept of something I want to write.

[John Doe]

So I'm gonna steal this because this is really getting a free classroom.

[Diane Warren]

No, but not that I can teach anything, but I like to like something that's going to compel. Compel me to write it. But it might be just playing some chords. Like that happens, too.

[John Doe]

Okay, but if it's. If it's a. If it's an idea, is it. Is it a scenario? Like a.

[Diane Warren]

No, it might be just a title. I don't know. I just kind of.

[John Doe]

Anything.

[Diane Warren]

Yeah.

[John Doe]

As long as you feel.

[Diane Warren]

Yeah. Feel compelled to do it. Or I might just be playing chords, you know, and. And then not knowing what you know. But I don't ever write a lyric first and write music to it. I've never done that.

[John Doe]

Never, huh? I've done that a few times, and it's always worked, so I don't know why I don't do it more. I don't think it's my. Excuse me. I don't think it's my natural state. I think my natural state is melody first.

[Diane Warren]

Yeah.

[John Doe]

And then kind of the melody takes. Almost tells me the story Exactly. Okay. Are you. Are you superstitious?

[Diane Warren]

I. I kind of. Kind of am. You know, but it's not. That's not why I don't want to clean my room.

[John Doe]

Please tell me why you don't want to clean.

[Diane Warren]

No, I'm just too lazy. I don't know. I kind of like. I'm used to it. I like it.

[John Doe]

Well, you know, as we say, if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

[Diane Warren]

Exactly.

[John Doe]

Explain. I think I know, but I want to hear it from you. Explain the advantage of writing in a place that you feel comfortable in or safe in or.

[Diane Warren]

Yeah, it's like anything. I mean, it makes it easier if you feel safe. It's like, you know. I don't know how to answer that. I just. I like to be comfortable. And then I could just not think about where I am because, you know, when we write, we kind of.

[John Doe]

It transports us, so it's a more. It's a lack of distraction in a way, like.

[Diane Warren]

Yeah. Yeah. Even though it's really just. Even though I got a lot of distraction in my room. Like, it's all messy and disgusting, but in my mind it doesn't. I don't notice anything. I don't. You know, I could. I drive down Sunset a million times, and I'll go, oh, you know, I'll see something. Not realize it's been there for 30 years and I've been driving by it, but I just don't notice.

[John Doe]

Yeah. So are you an astrology believer?

[Diane Warren]

Not as much, but I do like a good horoscope. I believe in it when it's a good horoscope, so.

[John Doe]

I looked up your birthday, September 7th, and it said this. I thought this was funny. Visionaries and ready to act on impulse as long as their instincts are nurtured as they grow up. I'll say it again. Visionaries. So your date, birth date is September 7th. Visionaries and ready to act on impulse as long as their instincts are nurtured as they grow up.

[Diane Warren]

I'm not sure if the last part of it makes sense. Cause I don't know how nurtured I was growing up.

[John Doe]

Well, that's kind of what I was getting at. You know, there's these apocryphal stories that you read. And of course I want your version. But this idea that your father was more supportive of your interest in music than your mother.

[Diane Warren]

Yeah, my dad was really supportive. My mom was like, how are you gonna make a living doing that? You know? And I grew up really literally a mile away from where we're sitting right now.

[John Doe]

It's pretty cool.

[Diane Warren]

So weird.

[John Doe]

Yeah.

[Diane Warren]

But, yeah, you know, I mean, the chances of look same with you. Like, what are the chances that we would. That you'd be successful?

[John Doe]

There's zero.

[Diane Warren]

You know, I don't know. I didn't have anybody in my family that was in music. You know, my dad sold insurance.

[John Doe]

See, my father was a musician, but he didn't want me to play music. So it worked the opposite. Everybody assumed he would be supportive. And he was totally not supportive.

[Diane Warren]

Cause it was probably hard for him. And he didn't want you to have that life.

[John Doe]

Yeah, and other reasons, but it's not important. So describe for me. Here we are in Van Nuys. Describe for me. Van nuys, sort of mid-60s. Because, you know, in Chicago we have such a Beach Boy version of California.

[Diane Warren]

Right.

[John Doe]

But give me your version. In your teen, you know, just hanging.

[Diane Warren]

Out with my friends, getting stoned all the time. We talk about, like, when we were a little kid. I was a little kid. Or when I was about.

[John Doe]

I guess I'm looking for when you really started in. You know, let's call it 10, 12, 14. When music becomes sort of central to your identity.

[Diane Warren]

Well, I was obsessed with music before I even, you know, at what age, playing it. Seeing the Beatles.

[John Doe]

So you saw the Beatles?

[Diane Warren]

Yeah, on Ed Sullivan. But I saw them in person, too. Cause I have older sisters.

[John Doe]

Was it Santa Monica Civic or something?

[Diane Warren]

I saw them at the Hollywood bowl and Dodgers.

[John Doe]

Ah, you saw the Hollywood Bowl.

[Diane Warren]

Yeah, I remember a lot of screaming. But I remember making my mom buy me meet the Beatles after seeing them on that. So I think that that that fuse lit everybody, you know, it lit a lot of people.

[John Doe]

Yeah.

[Diane Warren]

And, you know, I was obsessed with music, and I got to hear everything. Growing up in my. In my house, you know, my parents listened to show I had older sisters.

[John Doe]

The show tunes I can hear in.

[Diane Warren]

Your writing, which is weird because I don't really hear that, but it's. But it's an interesting thing.

[John Doe]

I can hear it. But the other thing is, it's also in McCartney's writing, too. You know, he had a lot of show. I guess I would say it's.

[Diane Warren]

Maybe it's a melody thing.

[John Doe]

It's a melody thing, but also the melody tells a story.

[Diane Warren]

Right, I see that. But anyways, When I was 11, my dad got me a little guitar from Tijuana. I started making up songs, and he was taking me to a guitar teacher, and the guitar teacher wanted me to learn scales. I think it was. It was somewhere on Balbo and Devonshire, so it's around here, too. It's so weird. And he told my dad not to bring me back because I had no future in music because I didn't want to learn the scales. I wanted to make up my own songs. So that's when I started getting the bug, you know, to write.

[John Doe]

Do you. Do you remember, like, a first song?

[Diane Warren]

Not exactly. I remember some of the old songs, but not the exact first.

[John Doe]

Right. And who would you have been listening to when you first.

[Diane Warren]

To the. To the radio.

[John Doe]

Okay, so whatever was on in.

[Diane Warren]

Yeah, because radio, when I grew up, it was like kla, kfwb, khj. They played everything. So it wasn't like, so fragmented like it is now.

[John Doe]

Well, the pop radio at the time was pretty sophisticated.

[Diane Warren]

Yeah, but you could hear everything. You could hear the Beatles. You could hear Motown, Petula Clark. Yeah. Downtown. Great song.

[John Doe]

Yeah, I just heard it the other day.

[Diane Warren]

It's such a great key change in the chorus.

[John Doe]

Yeah. Right.

[Diane Warren]

But so I got to hear. It was like getting this masterclass of songwriting because to me, that was the golden age. I love the Brill Building era.

[John Doe]

So was your father's support, in hindsight, just an act of loyalty because it meant something to you, or do you think he saw something in you?

[Diane Warren]

I think he saw something in me.

[John Doe]

Can you try to define that a bit?

[Diane Warren]

I don't. It's hard to define. I think my dad was, you know, like, after he retired, he worked. Would work with actors at this place called the Migot Theater down. It was on kind. What was it? Sado Around White Oak And I think my dad was like a frustrated performer almost or something, you know, like, he. Anyways, but he. Yeah, he totally, you know, supported me. He would take me to publishers and stuff, and I was like, an arrogant little asshole.

[John Doe]

But. How old is he?

[Diane Warren]

About 15 or 16.

[John Doe]

That's a pretty. Yeah, tell me a story. Like, going to see a publisher. Cause this is.

[Diane Warren]

Let me see, one time this was funny. So I was, like, probably about 16 or 17. My dad took me to see a publisher, you know, and the guy, he liked my songs, but he didn't, you know, he said, well, you know, I used to go. Go in the studio, do some demos. My dad goes, if you. If you like him so much, why aren't you spending your money? I'll never forget that, you know, but, you know, and then I made my dad get me a subscription, a billboard or where I studied everything, you know, who wrote everything, who produced record.

[John Doe]

Okay, so when you started doing that. Yeah, because I started doing that, too, around a similar age. It was like, who's really running this thing? Right. Like, did you start to see songwriters? You know, like, you see Carole King's name and you start. You know, did you.

[Diane Warren]

Yeah, I would see different names, you.

[John Doe]

Know, but who sticks out in your mind that.

[Diane Warren]

Well, seeing Goffin King was one of the first things I ever saw in a single that when I said I want to be in that parenthesis, it.

[John Doe]

Even sounds good, right?

[Diane Warren]

Yeah. Gotham King. I mean, like, I knew Carole King more as a songwriter from Tapestry, you know.

[John Doe]

Right.

[Diane Warren]

Cause that World Building era to me is like the greatest, you know, songs ever.

[John Doe]

Amazing. You know, it's kind of a fantasy, right? Like, to go back in the time machine and just be in that building.

[Diane Warren]

Yeah. Those little cubicles. That's why I like to be in little. Like, that's why I like my room, you know, I kind of feel like I created my own version of it.

[John Doe]

Yeah. But are there any other writers whether. I mean, you might not have been conscious of them at the time, but are the writers looking back or even then, that really stick out in your mind?

[Diane Warren]

Yeah, I mean, you know, I loved all the Holland Dozier Holland songs, all the Motown songs, all the, like, you know, I would. Yeah. You know, people like that. And then I would just, you know, really get into, you know, like, I hated school. I failed everything, you know, basically.

[John Doe]

But when I was. It. It was just your oppress, so I was disinterested and I didn't give a. Yeah.

[Diane Warren]

Like, you know, but when you find what you probably like, you. You find. Find music or you find something you love.

[John Doe]

I was it. I was off. Like.

[Diane Warren]

Yeah. It's like, okay, like, I want to know everything. I want to know. And I just. Yeah, I would just study everything.

[John Doe]

This is a bit of an esoteric question, but in your mind, is there a sort of a California dream? I mean, you grew up.

[Diane Warren]

I grew up here, so I could see it from the outside. I guess it is like. You think it's like, probably like beach. Poison around the beach. No, I mean, we were in the Valley, me and my friends. You know, we had our little, you know, group of weirdos, you know, I mean, you know, so it was, you know, it wasn't like we thought the California dream because we were not that we were living the California dream. We just were like valley kids.

[John Doe]

Sure. Yeah. I think it's hard because back in Chicago, through the prism of television, this looked like this magical. Right.

[Diane Warren]

It's almost like how Hollywood looks outside.

[John Doe]

Oh, absolutely.

[Diane Warren]

When you're in Hollywood, it looks so, like, glamorous.

[John Doe]

Yeah.

[Diane Warren]

And cool or whatever.

[John Doe]

Yeah. But that's what I love about you, saying your dad took you to publishers. Like, he was like, let's get in in there. Like, yeah, because that's where you would go. That's where he would take.

[Diane Warren]

And then there was this thing called the Songwriter Showcase that my dad would take me to.

[John Doe]

Tell me. So just explain that.

[Diane Warren]

It was Len Chandler and John Brahaney were. They. They had a showcase that they'd showcase for publishers and stuff. And my dad would take me there. He first took me. I was like, 15, and I was like, they didn't really like the songs I first brought them. And I'd argue and say, you don't know what you're talking about. I was such an arrogant little brat. And then my dad would, you know, go, you need to listen to them. And they'd go, Mr. Warren, go in the other room. And then, you know, they'd talk to me. And then I'd come back the next week with five more songs. I kept coming back, and then finally, you know, I, you know, I got to be on their showcase. I was like 16 years old or something, you know, but, you know, I don't know. I'm always someone that keeps coming back.

[John Doe]

So it's the title of your documentary.

[Diane Warren]

Relentless.

[John Doe]

Yeah, relentless.

[Diane Warren]

Yes, I am relentless.

[John Doe]

At what age did you think, okay, I can do this. This is like, my thing.

[Diane Warren]

Oh, I thought I could do this when I had no reason to. Like, I thought I'd be Like, I. I thought it was great when I wasn't. But I think you have to have that, you know, you have to have a little bit of that kind of self.

[John Doe]

Okay.

[Diane Warren]

You know.

[John Doe]

Okay. So what makes you great?

[Diane Warren]

I don't. I mean, what makes anybody great is, I don't know, hard work and talent.

[John Doe]

Yeah.

[Diane Warren]

And when you can't have one without the other.

[John Doe]

Absolutely.

[Diane Warren]

Talent without work doesn't mean. Work without hard work without talent doesn't mean. But if you.

[John Doe]

So you had the drive innately.

[Diane Warren]

Yeah, totally.

[John Doe]

So once you found that thing, you.

[Diane Warren]

Were like, yeah, this is it. And I'm. And I'm still as driven and hungry as I am ever.

[John Doe]

Like that, to me, is impressive, you know?

[Diane Warren]

Yeah. I don't. I never. Like, I don't. My rear view mirror doesn't work, so I just.

[John Doe]

I don't look at it because, you know, your chops haven't been in this dispute for a long, long time.

[Diane Warren]

And I can always get better, so I always want to get better at what I do.

[John Doe]

That's what impresses me as a fellow writer is like, you just wok. Give it up.

[Diane Warren]

No, no.

[John Doe]

Like, there's no resting on the laurels. It's impressive. It really is.

[Diane Warren]

I don't even know where the laurels are.

[John Doe]

I think it's your most admiral quality. Because talent is a weird thing. Whether you want to argue. Is given to us or. You know what I mean. It's like we were sort of hit with a wand somewhere coming down.

[Diane Warren]

Somewhere.

[John Doe]

Somewhere.

[Diane Warren]

Yeah.

[John Doe]

But the rest of it is really up to us.

[Diane Warren]

Up to us. Yeah. And up to. You have a gift, but it's what you do with it.

[John Doe]

Yeah. Did you. Because of that environment, that late 60s, early 70s environment. Did you see that being a woman in the music business on the production writing side was going to work against you?

[Diane Warren]

No. I mean, I never. First of all, I never got the memo because I'm a woman. I couldn't do something, you know.

[John Doe]

No, I don't mean it that way. I'm just talking about the culture around you.

[Diane Warren]

Oh, no, I never mean to be a. Well, I never wanted to be a producer anyways.

[John Doe]

But did you feel there was any prohibition?

[Diane Warren]

No, because it was. I didn't feel there was a prohibition because it was never anything I desired, you know, I mean, I just wanted to write and I never felt like. I never felt because I was a girl that it was going to be harder. I think. I think if I was.

[John Doe]

I didn't mean to, like, maybe I'm not phrasing it. I mean it along the sense of, like, if, if, If a. If a young man walks in an office in 1972 versus a young woman walking you in office in 1972.

[Diane Warren]

Right.

[John Doe]

By and large, the history of this business is the man would have a better opportunity to be heard, listened to, support.

[Diane Warren]

Right. I see.

[John Doe]

And the female writer on the business side, you know, I mean, meaning, like, because the business of making music is its own business. You know, you own your publishing and all that type of stuff.

[Diane Warren]

Right, Right.

[John Doe]

I just was wondering if there was any. You felt any of that.

[Diane Warren]

I didn't really feel any of that.

[John Doe]

That's amazing.

[Diane Warren]

No, I didn't.

[John Doe]

Maybe that's just your.

[Diane Warren]

I think it's also different if you're an artist, if you're being a female artist, that what might be, you know, a different kind of thing. I'm thinking.

[John Doe]

I don't know. Yeah.

[Diane Warren]

You know, but I never. I just.

[John Doe]

That's why I asked the question, because I, I, I assume things. But I think it just might be in my own head, this, like, I'm imagining.

[Diane Warren]

Probably. I mean, it's a legitimate question.

[John Doe]

So when you start to enter into, like, let's call it the professional side of the equation.

[Diane Warren]

Yeah.

[John Doe]

What's the first time you're like, okay, I'm here. I'm in this weird Willy Wonka world of now I'm a writer. Now I'm. What's like for you? What's the first, like, stake in the ground that you see like that.

[Diane Warren]

I. Well, I always thought I could do this, you know, and make a living at it, like, again.

[John Doe]

You made that clear.

[Diane Warren]

Okay. But the first time I, like, it was like, wow, I. I have a hit record. Was Rhythm of the night. Yeah.

[John Doe]

85. 85.

[Diane Warren]

85. Like 40 years ago. This.

[John Doe]

Yeah.

[Diane Warren]

You're so weird. I was like five when I wrote it. I was such a prodigy. Yeah. So that was great song. Thank you. Yeah. It's.

[John Doe]

My father used to cover it, you know.

[Diane Warren]

No. How cool is that? Wow. What did your dad play?

[John Doe]

Guitar.

[Diane Warren]

Wow.

[John Doe]

It was more of a. He. He could play lead no problem, but he was a great rhythm player.

[Diane Warren]

Wow. That's.

[John Doe]

So he liked anything that had a good rhythm. Yeah.

[Diane Warren]

I think I just got in my drum machine. A Lynn drum. Is that what it would have been at the time?

[John Doe]

Yeah.

[Diane Warren]

And I was, like, playing around with. That's how. That's how that song started.

[John Doe]

So describe the music world. Let's. Because I'm always interested in what it felt like so it's one thing to say, you know, I wrote the song, it was a big song, 1985. But it's another thing, like, what did it feel like to you, that environment? Because the music business back then was smaller than it is today. Less corporate than it is today, maybe a little bit more Wild west, free for all.

[Diane Warren]

Well, I was signed to, you know, this German publisher. His name was Jack White, not White Stripes. Jack White. So it was like my first publishing deal, you know, So I was kind of. I don't know if I'm answering the question, but it's just.

[John Doe]

I'm just trying to get a sense from you, like a snapshot of what of those days.

[Diane Warren]

Like, it seemed a lot more fun. Like, you know, like, you know, that era.

[John Doe]

Yeah, that's kind of what I'm saying. Yeah.

[Diane Warren]

Before it got really corporate.

[John Doe]

Yeah, that's kind of what I'm out.

[Diane Warren]

And I. And then later on I became. A couple of my friends were in promotion, record promotion. So I would go out with them and you know, to remember LA Dome back in the day.

[John Doe]

Oh, yeah.

[Diane Warren]

You know, and all those places that were like, just. And I wasn't really a partier. I was, you know, I wanted to get to work the next day and I'd be staying at my friend's house, you know, and getting ready to get up to work. And you know, her roommate would be coming. They're all coked out of their minds. They're coming back in the morning and I don't know, those were crazy days.

[John Doe]

Yeah, that's kind of what I'm after. It's just like, it's important sometimes because especially I think for young people, especially people looking into getting into the business, whether it's as an artist or as a writer, they're presented such a corporate wound up. Weird business.

[Diane Warren]

Must be weird to get in now where it's like about all about TikTok.

[John Doe]

And that's what I'm trying to say.

[Diane Warren]

Like with the best, greatest artists in the world be signed now, would Prince be signed, you know, if his Tick Tock numbers or would he have.

[John Doe]

Right. Would he have to do silly stuff to.

[Diane Warren]

Probably. Which is.

[John Doe]

So that's kind of what I'm after is like. Like you. You saw it.

[Diane Warren]

I see. So I. I grew up, I came up and when it wasn't like that. And I'll be in the studios, I work with a lot of young artists and I'll be like, oh, so why aren't they promoting that song? Oh, and it's a Great song. It's a great record. Oh, the TikTok numbers aren't high. Oh, the data. Like, you know, the data that matters is. Does it make the hair on your arm stand up? Does it make you feel something? And it's so tech data, you know, it's just. It's the antithesis of.

[John Doe]

Yeah. It's not a harp. It's more of, like. I think it's important to illustrate that the business that you and I came up in had a different sense of opportunity, which is, like, if you were willing to go for it and you got it done and you had the gift to do it, doors would open. Now, imagine you get.

[Diane Warren]

Well, doors can open, but if your TikTok numbers aren't high.

[John Doe]

But that's what I mean. So crazy.

[Diane Warren]

Like. Like, within the Springsteen days, where they'd wait to. I think was his second album that broke. You know, it wouldn't have even been his second single.

[John Doe]

Yeah.

[Diane Warren]

I mean, they would have dropped him.

[John Doe]

I'm sure you've heard those stories where major labels in this town will sign artists solely on their numbers. It. They don't even care if they can sing.

[Diane Warren]

Oh, I. I work with some of these. I've worked with some of them, you know. Yes. And it's like. Oh, my God. You just. It was like. Like. Like some kind of viral TikTok thing that was lightning in a bottle. You. This isn't real. A real artist. It's like, they're not gonna last.

[John Doe]

Yeah.

[Diane Warren]

You know, and I. Yeah, I. I deal with that sometimes.

[John Doe]

Okay. I'm curious of. Was there a point where you made the decision, I don't want to be the person behind the microphone. I want to be the person.

[Diane Warren]

Oh. I always knew I didn't want to be the person behind the microphone. I always knew I just wanted to write.

[John Doe]

Really?

[Diane Warren]

Yeah. Even though.

[John Doe]

So I. Somehow I got the sense that at some point there was a moment where you.

[Diane Warren]

Okay, I wasn't. I'm never again.

[John Doe]

Maybe I made that up. No.

[Diane Warren]

I've never been a frustrated artist. I never. I know. But I did start a record that I might finish just for the of it. Like, not that I care about it, but, like, I know I like being. I'm very happy behind the scenes with better singers singing my songs.

[John Doe]

Is there a frustration, though, that comes in when you know you've got a song and you can hear it in your mind and you trust it, and then the person singing it doesn't have the right understanding of it? It's not the right voice.

[Diane Warren]

It's happened. It's happened.

[John Doe]

But is that frustrating?

[Diane Warren]

And once it's a hit, I'm like, well, it's the right voice.

[John Doe]

But what I'm saying is, in my mind, I go back to, you know, I'm always oriented to. I gotta sing my own song.

[Diane Warren]

Yeah, you're lucky. You're a great singer.

[John Doe]

Well, God bless.

[Diane Warren]

You know, I'm like, you know, Blanche dubois in Streetcar Named Desire. I always depend on the kindness of strangers.

[John Doe]

Don't make me laugh. Do you. Do you write with singers in mind when you.

[Diane Warren]

When you're, you know. No, I try to write the best song I can write. And then I. Then I. Then, like, a lot of my songs go different ways, but, like, I just try to write a great song, but then as I'm writing it, I'm thinking, oh, that could be right for so and so or that or someone like that. I never thought of, like, Steven Tyler. Like. But I don't want to miss a thing. Like, I never in a million years thought Steven Tyler would be A, would ever do my song.

[John Doe]

Yeah.

[Diane Warren]

You know, and B, would, you know, that that would have been a song for him. But now I can't imagine anybody else.

[John Doe]

Yeah. It's just. It's the idea of when you're writing, you know, in my mind, you would always be the star of the movie. Right. Is that fair?

[Diane Warren]

It depends on what movie, you know.

[John Doe]

Right. But I'm saying is that I'm not trying to project because, again, it's all respect with your gift. It's just trying to understand because you've written so many great songs and you had such great success. I feel like there's got to be some consistent voice in there, even if it's eternal. Does that make sense?

[Diane Warren]

I mean, like, a voice I'm hearing. So I read so many different genres of songs. Like, you know, I go from, like, I just did something with Angelique Kidjo, and then I'll go from that to, you know, 88.

[John Doe]

Then I'll go to. We're getting to the list of people that have recorded your songs.

[Diane Warren]

So it's not one. In other words, so it's not one voice. It's kind of whatever voice is right for that song.

[John Doe]

So I must be projecting. I. I just imagine it's.

[Diane Warren]

No, it's interesting. I'm. I mean, there have been questions.

[John Doe]

Yeah, it's. It's. I just. I just curious, like, who's singing when you're writing? Because.

[Diane Warren]

Well, sadly, it's me.

[John Doe]

But. But. But that's But.

[Diane Warren]

But, I mean, because I'm the one in the room.

[John Doe]

But we've all had that experience of we're totally into a song and we record it and we. We feel it.

[Diane Warren]

Yeah.

[John Doe]

And then we listen back and go, oh, my God. Like, who's singing the song? The voice in the head for me is always stronger than this voice.

[Diane Warren]

But you can really see I don't like to listen to myself sing. So sometimes I'm writing, I pretend I'm somebody else.

[John Doe]

That's kind of what I'm after. That's what I'm saying.

[Diane Warren]

I don't know, but it just.

[John Doe]

Is it characters you can play, you know?

[Diane Warren]

Well, no, it's like, it might be an artist. It might be. When I'm writing, I'm like, imagining someone doing it, but then I come back to earth and I have to hear me. So.

[John Doe]

Are you the type of writer that you go in thinking, I want to write a great song or I want to write a great single, or is it.

[Diane Warren]

I just try to. I want to write a great song. Hopefully it's a great single, too.

[John Doe]

Yeah. Because your success at writing singles is.

[Diane Warren]

But you never know what's going to. Like some things.

[John Doe]

Have you. Okay, so I just try to write songs.

[Diane Warren]

I want them to sound like they could be hits. I want them to all connect. I want them to write songs.

[John Doe]

Okay, but is there a song that we would know that you thought, I really love this song. I don't think it'll ever be a single. And it became a big success.

[Diane Warren]

I have to think anytime any of them are successful, I'm always shocked, to be honest, because everything can work against it.

[John Doe]

Yeah.

[Diane Warren]

You know, so when one comes through, it's like, oh, my God, what didn't up there? You know?

[John Doe]

So when you start having hits, 85. Right. Does the phone start ringing?

[Diane Warren]

People started liking songs that they didn't like a week before. I remember that I love this town, you know? Yeah, right. And then the ones that suddenly you're.

[John Doe]

A genius, suddenly now you're a genius.

[Diane Warren]

And all the ones that didn't want to sign you go, oh, my God. I always believed in you and stuff, but it's okay, you know, you just smile and go, you can. You.

[John Doe]

You can you write to order?

[Diane Warren]

I can if I have to. You know, just walk me through. I mean, right now I have a TV show that I. That I helped develop that's a big Disney, you know, music show.

[John Doe]

Is it out yet or.

[Diane Warren]

It's being filmed now. So it's about three young Girls.

[John Doe]

Can you share the name or.

[Diane Warren]

Well, it's called how we Became the Biggest Band in the World. So it's about these three girls, young. They meet in junior high.

[John Doe]

So you're writing to the characters, so.

[Diane Warren]

Yes, I'm writing songs for them, but I'm writing hit songs that are authentic to who they are, you know?

[John Doe]

Yeah.

[Diane Warren]

So it is kind of writing to order, you know.

[John Doe]

This is a totally self indulgent question. Do you have a favorite key to write in?

[Diane Warren]

I kind of tend. I like D. I had a feeling. Yeah. Is that weird? Maybe it's because my name starts with a D. No, I'm just kidding. I don't know. I think we, you know, on the guitar. C and G. I mean, all those normal keys. But, you know, I like D flat. I've written some good songs on D flat.

[John Doe]

It has a different. It has a sorrow to it. Do you?

[Diane Warren]

Yeah, yeah. Darker.

[John Doe]

Right. Even if it's major.

[Diane Warren]

Yeah, it's dark.

[John Doe]

Yeah. I know you don't just write alone, but.

[Diane Warren]

Well, I basically do.

[John Doe]

I was getting there. But my point is, is. Is there a. Is there an inner reason or that's just again, your comfort?

[Diane Warren]

It's just what I. Yeah, it's what I'm comfortable. I like. I like taking something from nothing and building like. It's like we're world builders in a way. Right?

[John Doe]

Oh, yeah.

[Diane Warren]

You know, like every song is a world and it. It has its own laws and its own rules that only fit that. And I love doing that. I love creating those worlds.

[John Doe]

So not in the. In the. Like we're sitting in front of a bunch of kids, like they want to write songs.

[Diane Warren]

Yeah.

[John Doe]

Like, to a pro like me, like, what's your most sage writing advice? Do you have, like.

[Diane Warren]

I mean, my advice for anything if you want to succeed, to show up.

[John Doe]

Right. Well, you've showed up.

[Diane Warren]

Yes. I mean, you gotta show up. You gotta show up and work.

[John Doe]

I always say. I always say my personal breakthrough, and I want to ask yours. My personal breakthrough was when I allowed myself to write a bad song.

[Diane Warren]

Well, yeah, I mean, you know, I think I've allowed my. I think I've allowed that to happen. I try not to now, but I try not to write a bad song. But, you know.

[John Doe]

But was there a moment where you. You felt this breaking open of the doors? Does that make sense in terms of, you know, like there are those periods when we're learning, like, oh, Lennon McCartney wrote this kind of cool intro and you kind of learn it and you go, oh, okay, now I understand why they did it that way. There's the mechanical part of learning the chop, and then there comes a point where it's like, you're writing your song.

[Diane Warren]

Yeah.

[John Doe]

Was there a sort of personal breakthrough where you felt that.

[Diane Warren]

You mean, like, learning someone else's song to.

[John Doe]

No, I meant, like, more along the lines of, like, a breakthrough of going.

[Diane Warren]

To another level of writing.

[John Doe]

Yes. Where you're like, okay, now I'm writing my song. Like, this is what I envisioned. I'm writing it. It exists, and now it is in the world.

[Diane Warren]

Well, I'll give an example. I mean, I don't know if I'm answering your question, but when I wrote that song, I wrote because youe Loved Me, I was like, this is a whole different level of my writing. And I. And when I wrote it, I go, this song is better than me. And I have to catch up to that song.

[John Doe]

That's kind of what I mean.

[Diane Warren]

So what about like. I go, this is. Well, how did I write that? And I have to catch up to that because that's just one other.

[John Doe]

For people who don't know writing. Can you break that down a little bit?

[Diane Warren]

I don't even know how to break it down. I just. It was the level.

[John Doe]

Was it identifying an emotional part of you that you.

[Diane Warren]

No, it's just the craft of it or something. It just was. It was just. I don't know. It just. I felt like it. It was like, I don't analyze stuff. I just kind of do.

[John Doe]

I'm a nerd, so I apologize.

[Diane Warren]

It's okay. I just don't really sit in it. And, like, I just knew. I just knew that, you know, when you get that feeling, you know, it's like. It's a breakthrough.

[John Doe]

Yeah, I feel. I feel the best writers don't analyze. Yeah.

[Diane Warren]

I have no clue how I do what I do, so I just show up.

[John Doe]

I spend all my time trying to figure out how I do what I do.

[Diane Warren]

That's all right.

[John Doe]

This is a fun list. It's long, but I think it's important because for those who don't know why we're here, these are some of the people that have recorded songs of yours. Bette Midler, Stevie B, Celine Dion, Cheap Trick, En Vogue, Whitney Houston, Belinda Carlisle, Taylor Dane, Britney Spears, Marcia Hines, Alice Cooper, Christina Aguilera, Beyonce, tlc. Aliah. Right. Aaliyah Aliyah. Sorry. Hart. Agnetha. Fault song. Is that. Is that from abba?

[Diane Warren]

One of the ABBA girls.

[John Doe]

I know what a.

[Diane Warren]

You're going in the old Days. A lot of those.

[John Doe]

But I'm just going. What's on the paper? Elton John, Cherry. Tina Turner, Bryan Adams, Selena, Jessica Simpson, Air Supply, Olivia Newton, John. Barbra Streisand, Aretha Franklin, Roberta Flack, Roy Orbison, Tricia Yearwood, Patti LaBelle, Michael Bolden, NSync, Renee Froeger, Lori Estefan, Reba McIntyre, Enrique Iglesias, Paloma Faith, Russell Watson, Rod Stewart, Aerosmith, the Colt, Kiss, Ricky Martin, Monica, Faith Hill Meatloaf, Sugar Babes, Mariah Carey, Toni Braxton. I mean, it's just.

[Diane Warren]

It's a lot of people on there.

[John Doe]

Lady Gaga, I mean, Starship Weezer, Joe Cocker, Milli Vanilli. I mean, it's just flame on the rain. And this is. This is like. This is just like part of the iceberg. Yeah, that's so I. You know, obviously I want to flatter you, but.

[Diane Warren]

You don't have to flatter me.

[John Doe]

I like flattering.

[Diane Warren]

No. Okay, then if you flatter me, I have to flatter you.

[John Doe]

It's just such a rare list of accomplishments. Oh, do you feel that it's.

[Diane Warren]

I mean, I don't think about it. I kind of forgot some of those people on the list. I'm like Renee Frog. But. But.

[John Doe]

Well, is it 1500 songs at this point? Although you're up in Irving Berlin territory. First songs written?

[Diane Warren]

Probably. I'm. I'm a lot of songs.

[John Doe]

That's what the Internet says. 1500.

[Diane Warren]

Wow. I like. I'm Irving Berlinsi hero.

[John Doe]

You know, he could only play the black keys.

[Diane Warren]

I know. And he had that thing on his piano. Isn't that weird?

[John Doe]

Yeah.

[Diane Warren]

Yeah. Maybe we should just played in. What was it? In D flat or something?

[John Doe]

Well, he would have either been playing in. In. In. In. In E flat or D sharp, however you want to say it. I. I didn't. I'm not trained. Yeah, Me or F sharp. So he's basically playing F sharp, E or C sharp.

[Diane Warren]

Right. Wow. And he just never bothered to learn how to play in different keys.

[John Doe]

How do you write like that? Right?

[Diane Warren]

I don't know. It's like right now you just press a button.

[John Doe]

Nine number one songs.

[Diane Warren]

Yeah.

[John Doe]

You.

[Diane Warren]

Yeah. I think I'm tied me and Lionel Richie with the most number ones. Well, solo.

[John Doe]

Look out, Lionel. But what a. Right. What a great writer, too.

[Diane Warren]

Oh, yeah. Wow.

[John Doe]

Like, great.

[Diane Warren]

Great guy, too.

[John Doe]

It's. It's. It's my parlance, but I. You know, when people can write like you, I call you assassins. You guys are assassins.

[Diane Warren]

I like that. Someone else called me an assassin.

[John Doe]

You're an assassin.

[Diane Warren]

I love that.

[John Doe]

I mean, you are a song assassin. I love it.

[Diane Warren]

I love that.

[John Doe]

I love it.

[Diane Warren]

Someone, like, not that long ago called me a trained assassin. I'm like, I like that.

[John Doe]

Recently, an interview with a fellow musician, I was using the analogy of, like, you know, the gunfighters in the movies. And, you know, like, I'd be afraid to face you on the street, you know, I don't know. Cause you're an assassin.

[Diane Warren]

I know, but you probably are, too. And you'd probably.

[John Doe]

I'm my own kind of assassin.

[Diane Warren]

Yeah.

[John Doe]

So you'd get me 33 top 10 songs.

[Diane Warren]

Yeah. Weird. I know.

[John Doe]

Is that enough for.

[Diane Warren]

No, nothing's enough.

[John Doe]

I love it. I love it.

[Diane Warren]

It's never enough. No.

[John Doe]

I gotta tell you, one moment that I. That really connects me to you. We. We've met in the past, which was nice because I got to talk to you in the past. But this is. Let's call it the. The snobby musician. Not really understanding how great you were until this moment.

[Diane Warren]

Oh, wow. You a snobby musician.

[John Doe]

I'm a totally snobby musician.

[Diane Warren]

Okay, so. But you're talking to me, and I'm like the most uncool person in the world.

[John Doe]

Listen, you're a lot cooler than you think you are. I mean, thank you. When you can do what you can do, it's pretty cool to me. So I don't care what anyone says.

[Diane Warren]

I think you're cool, too. Thank you.

[John Doe]

God bless.

[Diane Warren]

You are cool.

[John Doe]

Thank you. God bless you. But. Okay, so let me tell you this moment.

[Diane Warren]

Okay?

[John Doe]

So I don't remember where it was. It's some MTV thing. Could have been the Grammys. I don't remember. And it was when the Aerosmith song.

[Diane Warren]

Oh, wow. Yeah, yeah. 1998. I don't want to miss a thing.

[John Doe]

I don't want to miss this thing. And like a lot of old school Aerosmith fans, I was kind of condemnatory of ballad Aerosmith.

[Diane Warren]

Oh, right.

[John Doe]

It felt like it was this new.

[Diane Warren]

Aerosmith did a Diane Warren song. They sold out.

[John Doe]

Well, I was probably one of those snobby rock fans saying the same thing. And, you know, remember they used to do that skit on SNL where it would be like, I think Adam Sandler where he would sing like seven different Aerosmith ballads.

[Diane Warren]

Oh, I didn't see that, though.

[John Doe]

It was kind of a funny skit. He would sing crying, and then, like, it was just like they would just play the same song, you know, musically, and he would sing the lyrics to like, seven different Aerosmith ballads. So by the time it got to the song that it. It was the. From the movie. I can't remember.

[Diane Warren]

Armageddon.

[John Doe]

Armageddon, yeah. Huge movie, huge moment. And. And I. You know, it's one of those things, like, when you're at one of those award shows. I was like, in the seventh row, and I could see Stephen, who I didn't know then, and I don't know him now, but I've met him since. But I saw him on the side of the stage getting ready. You know, typical musician kind of pacing around.

[Diane Warren]

Yeah.

[John Doe]

And he's chewing gum. Like. Like, Right. And then, you know, you could see somebody coming over going, like, you know. You know, we're about to go.

[Diane Warren]

Right.

[John Doe]

He spits out his gum, and he steps up and he. And that performance was just. I was like. And then for the first time, this.

[Diane Warren]

Is probably the Grammys, right?

[John Doe]

Yes, but for the first time. That's the last time they invited me to the Grammys, by the way.

[Diane Warren]

So I didn't go either.

[John Doe]

Exactly.

[Diane Warren]

Sorry. I'd rather go to the Oscars.

[John Doe]

God bless. We'll get to that, too. But for the first time, I found myself going, who the wrote this song?

[Diane Warren]

Oh, wow.

[John Doe]

Right.

[Diane Warren]

I love that.

[John Doe]

As a musician. Right. Like, as a snobby musician, I'm like.

[Diane Warren]

Because I hate that. But.

[John Doe]

Well, I'm not the biggest fan of that type of music. It's just the way I am. It's nothing personal, but I'm watching him kill this vocal.

[Diane Warren]

Yeah.

[John Doe]

Oh, right.

[Diane Warren]

Yeah.

[John Doe]

And so the first thing I did was, who wrote this song?

[Diane Warren]

Oh, wow.

[John Doe]

And then I saw your name. Now I knew your name. You know what I mean? Because you just. You're in the Ethereum. But then I started going, oh, she wrote that song, and she wrote that song, and she wrote that song. And then it was like, I hate them all. But since that moment, I've paid attention because I was like. Because I was like, okay, this person knows what they're doing sometimes.

[Diane Warren]

Yeah.

[John Doe]

Well, Major League Baseball, you've only got to get three hits out of 10, and you're a star.

[Diane Warren]

Okay.

[John Doe]

They're paying you a billion dollars. Okay. Sixteen Academy Award nominations.

[Diane Warren]

Speaking of. Sixteen right now.

[John Doe]

Yes.

[Diane Warren]

And ask me how many I won.

[John Doe]

Well, one of my nicknames is Zero, so I think it's Zero.

[Diane Warren]

I think that should be my nickname, too. Oh, yeah. No, but it's great. It's. It is. It. I mean, this is a cliche. It's just great to be just nominated. But it really is for. Especially with the Oscars.

[John Doe]

Come on.

[Diane Warren]

No, there's only five songs. They only picked five.

[John Doe]

But you wrote all of them. That's the problem.

[Diane Warren]

But. Well, I wrote one of five. Sixteen times.

[John Doe]

Maybe that's what it's gonna take. You gotta write all five.

[Diane Warren]

Oh, yeah. Then I would definitely win. No, but this. I'm really excited about this year. This. You know, maybe. Maybe it'll happen. You know, it's a really good song.

[John Doe]

Hopefully, by the time people see this, you will have won.

[Diane Warren]

Yeah. Or I'll just.

[John Doe]

I'm superstitious. Like, I can't pre congratulate you.

[Diane Warren]

Okay. Yeah, don't do that.

[John Doe]

Is songwriting therapeutic? Another question I don't like, but.

[Diane Warren]

Yeah, but it is, isn't it? Like, don't you feel better when you write and you write something great?

[John Doe]

Better when I write a good song.

[Diane Warren]

Yeah, me too. Even starting one where I just go, oh, I love this. Yeah, it's totally therapeutic.

[John Doe]

Is it true that therap going to therapy helped you write songs, or is that.

[Diane Warren]

It didn't hurt me. You know, can you.

[John Doe]

Can you explore that a little bit?

[Diane Warren]

When I. When I. When I. What happens? I bought. I bought David Geffen's house. Like, his little house.

[John Doe]

I've been to the other one.

[Diane Warren]

No, not.

[John Doe]

That's why my eyes got really wet.

[Diane Warren]

Where his boyfriend was living at the time a while ago, and I tried to negotiate the price down, and he said, you're crazy. You need to see my shrink. And she was this woman named Beatrice Foster, and she was kind of this mean Argentinian. But my friends would. You know, people I knew would go, you know, it's gonna hurt your writing and all that. And it didn't. You know, it didn't hurt my writing at all.

[John Doe]

Yeah, I can't imagine that.

[Diane Warren]

Yeah.

[John Doe]

This is the. Not the typical. You know, explain it for the. Those in the crowd who don't understand, but it's addressed in your. In your documentary, which, again, I haven't seen yet, but I saw some of the clips. But whether it's Asperger's or on the spectrum.

[Diane Warren]

I mean, that shrink, the mean Argentinian one, she's the one who said, I have Asperger's. So I never technically was diagnosed, but I think we're probably all on the spectrum that do this.

[John Doe]

Yeah. That's kind of why I wanted to ask, because it seems like one of those things where it's like.

[Diane Warren]

I mean, to sit there and do, like, sit and do one line of a song all day. Long. You have to figure it out. I mean, you gotta be a little bit weird.

[John Doe]

Well, I don't know, because I don't feel I'm on the spectrum and I'm just as driven and driven and laser focused as you are.

[Diane Warren]

Yeah. So, I mean, I think it's. People put names on all these things. I mean, what does that really mean?

[John Doe]

You know, do you have that thing. And this is a. This is a shop question. But like. Like the song gets in you and it won't, like.

[Diane Warren]

Yeah.

[John Doe]

Won't leave.

[Diane Warren]

Yeah.

[John Doe]

Like, you go to bed.

[Diane Warren]

Yeah.

[John Doe]

And you wake up and it's like, oh, my God, leave me alone.

[Diane Warren]

Yeah, that happens. Yeah, it does.

[John Doe]

Have you had the thing where you go to bed and you wake up and your brain has rearranged the song?

[Diane Warren]

No, I wish that happened.

[John Doe]

That happens to me sometimes.

[Diane Warren]

That's your life.

[John Doe]

Which is cool.

[Diane Warren]

You're lucky. That's cool.

[John Doe]

Because my brain does a better arrangement than I did.

[Diane Warren]

Wow.

[John Doe]

So I'll wake up and I'll.

[Diane Warren]

You figured everything out.

[John Doe]

Yeah. It solves the problems for me.

[Diane Warren]

Okay. So I don't have that brain. I wish I did.

[John Doe]

It doesn't happen all the time.

[Diane Warren]

It's amazing.

[John Doe]

But have you dreamt songs? Have you had that?

[Diane Warren]

No. If I've dreamt something, I don't remember it. So I'm never really. I don't really dream. Songs become songs.

[John Doe]

I have three or four songs that came out in records that were from dreams.

[Diane Warren]

Wow.

[John Doe]

Yeah. But they never sound as good on record as they sounded in the dream.

[Diane Warren]

Well, yeah, everything looks better and sounds.

[John Doe]

Better in the dream. It's like, oh, my God, this is the greatest song ever.

[Diane Warren]

Wow.

[John Doe]

I'm not looking for gossip, if this is not a gossip show. But I'm curious about.

[Diane Warren]

I am. You got any?

[John Doe]

I'm happy to talk gossip with you. You all talk gossip with me all day. But this idea of being single or saying, I don't want a relationship, I feel. The way it comes off the stuff I read, it feels like reductionist or something.

[Diane Warren]

I don't know. I just. That's just my life. I like to sleep with a cat.

[John Doe]

But can the cat write songs?

[Diane Warren]

No. So she's kind of useless? No. But I could stay awake just to hear her purring. So. I really love the Aerosmith song.

[John Doe]

Is there any connection, though, with. With being out of relationship in the literal sense of the word, that creates an ambiance around love that keeps it in a certain place for you because you've written so many love songs.

[Diane Warren]

I could fall in love in every song because I could be in that. In that. That character, and then I'm out of it, and I'm on the next one. I can write a you song next, and I can write. You know. You know, it's just. Yeah. I've never got the memo I had to be in a relationship with anybody. It's just not me.

[John Doe]

When you're. When you're writing and you're. And you're poking around a melody, are you more. Is it more phonetic, or are you looking for lyrics?

[Diane Warren]

I'm just. I'm just seeing what happens.

[John Doe]

Okay. Yeah, I get that. What's your favorite story in a song? And what I mean by that is like, you know how they say in Hollywood there's only 12 stories? You know, boy meets girl, boy loses girl, girl.

[Diane Warren]

So what was my favorite? I don't know. I don't.

[John Doe]

Do you have a favorite? Kind of mythological?

[Diane Warren]

No.

[John Doe]

Really?

[Diane Warren]

Not. Not really. Oh, do you?

[John Doe]

It seems to be looking for something that doesn't exist.

[Diane Warren]

Okay.

[John Doe]

I think it has a lot to do with growing up without my mother.

[Diane Warren]

Oh, I'm sorry.

[John Doe]

Yeah. Well, thank you. But. So going back to the California, I think, mine.

[Diane Warren]

I do think there's a theme in some of my songs, like. Cause we're here to talk about, like, you know, proving people wrong. You know, there's always that, like, you know, you. I'm gonna get through it. I'm gonna.

[John Doe]

You got a scrappy thing to you.

[Diane Warren]

Yeah, I'm pretty scrappy, you know.

[John Doe]

Yeah. I just wanted.

[Diane Warren]

Even in the Journey, even, like, the number. My latest song with her nomination.

[John Doe]

Sixteen.

[Diane Warren]

Number 16.

[John Doe]

We're sweet 16.

[Diane Warren]

Come on. But basically, that's what the song. You know, when you're going with your heart, you can go farther than you ever thought possible. Prove them all wrong.

[John Doe]

Okay. So that's foundational. Yeah. There's a mythological foundation to that. Right.

[Diane Warren]

It's the journey.

[John Doe]

Is it being small, too? Is that part of the. Sort of the smallness.

[Diane Warren]

No, basically, it's just. Basically that against all odds, just like, you know, growing up a mile away from here, and I'm sitting here talking about a career that I know is one in a billion.

[John Doe]

It is. I might even be more than one.

[Diane Warren]

I mean, you know. You know, so I. I don't lose sight of that.

[John Doe]

So is there a musical genre you can't write for?

[Diane Warren]

I probably don't know how to write rap, but I can get. I can write for rappers that sing, but I think I've, you know, yeah, that's probably the, you know.

[John Doe]

Yeah.

[Diane Warren]

I don't know. Maybe death metal wouldn't be what I would do.

[John Doe]

Yeah. I once got into kind of a quasi argument with somebody on Broadway who didn't think I could write for Broadway.

[Diane Warren]

I bet you could write amazing for Broadway.

[John Doe]

Well, that's what I told him.

[Diane Warren]

Yeah.

[John Doe]

And I said, you know, that's like telling someone who cooks really good Italian food, they can't cook good Mexican. You don't understand the chop of a writer. A writer can write a book, you can do anything. A cook can cook, and a writer can write.

[Diane Warren]

Exactly.

[John Doe]

Exactly. But I was just wondering if there's anything that you would be intimidated by genre.

[Diane Warren]

Just not knowing that I wouldn't be able to do it or want to do it.

[John Doe]

Have you tried your hand at alternative rock? You know, not a lot of melody.

[Diane Warren]

Not a lot. Not a lot, but not a lot of melody there. But.

[John Doe]

I know the answer to the question, but tell me if I'm wrong, which is like, there's never enough songs.

[Diane Warren]

Yeah. There's always new ones.

[John Doe]

There's always another song.

[Diane Warren]

Yeah. Yeah. I'm always on to the next one.

[John Doe]

Is there is, though, at the root of it, is there some pathological drive there?

[Diane Warren]

Probably, but I don't think about it. I just do it.

[John Doe]

Well, we're here to think about it.

[Diane Warren]

No, I just, you know, it's just what I do.

[John Doe]

Yeah.

[Diane Warren]

You know, is there.

[John Doe]

Is there something that you still hope to achieve in. In song?

[Diane Warren]

Like, just get better at it, you know? Like, I want to just keep writing great songs.

[John Doe]

And you must have been approached to write musicals and stuff like that.

[Diane Warren]

Yeah, there's a couple things I'm kind of doing.

[John Doe]

Yeah. You know, isn't there something where they're talking about doing, like, a songbook musical?

[Diane Warren]

Yeah, there's one that's in development, that's been written and stuff, so it's a bunch of my hits, but with new songs, too.

[John Doe]

Yeah.

[Diane Warren]

You know, but it's not my day job. It's. It's not really my world. But it's. It's cool if it works.

[John Doe]

Yeah.

[Diane Warren]

It just takes forever.

[John Doe]

It's definitely a different modality, too.

[Diane Warren]

Yeah.

[John Doe]

They're very driven by other forces than we would be a pop song.

[Diane Warren]

It's not. It's not as, you know, it takes too long. It takes a long time. It's not as.

[John Doe]

You know, you could probably speed it up a bit, but it still takes too long.

[Diane Warren]

Yeah, it's still, you know.

[John Doe]

Yeah. It's weird because I've talked to people on Broadway and say, don't you want to have songs on Broadway that people would want to buy?

[Diane Warren]

Yeah, exactly.

[John Doe]

Like, not. Not people.

[Diane Warren]

If I do musicals, I want to do, like, ones that have. That are hit songs.

[John Doe]

That's what I don't understand why they don't.

[Diane Warren]

It's weird.

[John Doe]

It seemed to have worked that out of their business model, like Oklahoma. And all that.

[Diane Warren]

The ones my parents played, they were on the charts. Those were great, like, hit songs, you know, and you can modernize.

[John Doe]

Well, not only that, those songs would be covered by Charlie Parker or Miles Davis or Ray Charles. Yeah, I don't understand what happened to that part of the culture.

[Diane Warren]

When I do my musicals, there's gonna be hits.

[John Doe]

There you go. Okay, last question. And I want to explore this a little bit of depth because it's so at the heart of your writing. Is there a perfect love or a perfect. Not lover, like a person. But is there an ideal there in your mind?

[Diane Warren]

No. Well, it has four legs.

[John Doe]

Okay, well, we can go there too, but.

[Diane Warren]

No, I'm just kidding.

[John Doe]

Well, my point is, is if you're. What's. What's the oppositional force to the scrappy fighter? Does it make sense?

[Diane Warren]

What. What am I fighting against?

[John Doe]

No, it's like if. If. If. If the per. If you're a person who wants to be understood or seen. The foe on the. That. That end of the equation is somebody who doesn't see you or doesn't appreciate you.

[Diane Warren]

Right.

[John Doe]

And you have to prove them wrong.

[Diane Warren]

Yeah, it's.

[John Doe]

But the positive side. The positive side of that equation is somebody who understands. What is it that they understand about you? That maybe most people.

[Diane Warren]

I don't know. I don't know what they'd understand. I don't know if anybody understands anybody, really, but.

[John Doe]

So when you're writing a love song and you're writing about somebody else, is it just a sort of miasmic idea.

[Diane Warren]

Of, well, I'm just in that character.

[John Doe]

Okay.

[Diane Warren]

Like, so.

[John Doe]

So if it has to be, I'm.

[Diane Warren]

Being authentic to what is being said in that song.

[John Doe]

But is there an oppositional character usually that you're speaking to?

[Diane Warren]

It depends, depending on the song.

[John Doe]

Okay.

[Diane Warren]

You know, it depends on.

[John Doe]

Yeah. Just because you wrote. You've written so many great love songs.

[Diane Warren]

I almost. I have some good, you know, songs that are.

[John Doe]

I've heard the angry songs, too, but those are fun. I was just wondering, if there's, like, sort of an idealized thing, does it make sense?

[Diane Warren]

No, not one idealized thing.

[John Doe]

Yeah. So I think I have an idealized thing that's kind of.

[Diane Warren]

What is that? What is that?

[John Doe]

I think it has something to do with my mother and I. You know, it has something.

[Diane Warren]

Well, maybe mine does, too. The proving people wrong. That was. The first person I was to prove wrong was my mom, so.

[John Doe]

Right. That's what I'm saying. You're s. You're sort of speaking to somebody.

[Diane Warren]

Right. So even if it's about something else, there's a, you know, subliminal thing.

[John Doe]

Yeah. Because part of my story is my mother was institutionalized when I was four. So my mother was in my life but at a distance. So I had to create a kind of mental version of my mother that was or wasn't real. That over time, had to. To be amended.

[Diane Warren]

Wow.

[John Doe]

So when that became a. You know, there's that old. I'm sure you've heard it, like, little boys marry their mothers and little girls marry their fathers, that type of thing. But the. But the notion is that if you. If you're. If you have an idealized conception of. Of, in this case, the mother, well, then when you go into adult life and you're trying to find a partner, and if that holds true, that you're looking for your mother, well, you're looking for somebody that doesn't exist.

[Diane Warren]

Right.

[John Doe]

Because I had to create an idealized version of my mother in my mind.

[Diane Warren]

Wow.

[John Doe]

Because the real person, I couldn't navigate.

[Diane Warren]

Do you ever get to know her?

[John Doe]

Oh, yeah. I was very close to my mother. And it's. It's a very strange.

[Diane Warren]

Wow.

[John Doe]

Long story that I'd love to tell you if you want to hear it, but. Yeah, but. But. So I feel like I'm oftentimes writing to the. Like a ghost.

[Diane Warren]

Oh, wow.

[John Doe]

And then by extension. And that's why I asked about California and growing up here, because by extension, I think. And I think this is a very similar to. A lot of people grew up in the Midwest in basements and latchkey kids.

[Diane Warren]

Right.

[John Doe]

We're kind of talking about something that we were sort of promised, but we know it isn't real. But television created a fake.

[Diane Warren]

Right.

[John Doe]

Because there it was, and now it's the Internet now.

[Diane Warren]

It's, you know, Instagram.

[John Doe]

Sure.

[Diane Warren]

Isn't it? Right.

[John Doe]

But the 1975 version was Erik Estrada on a motorcycle.

[Diane Warren]

Right, right.

[John Doe]

You know, or Farrah Fawcett, you know, Charlie's Angels, all this. It was like.

[Diane Warren]

It looked enticing.

[John Doe]

Yes. And it created a kind of mental idea of something, even though it's not real. You believe it to be real, so you. You kind of chase it.

[Diane Warren]

I wonder how many people came, you know, to Hollywood and, you know, endless with that.

[John Doe]

Like, thousands of people see you growing up here. I think it's probably a different perspective. I always. The analogy I always get is people get off the bus.

[Diane Warren]

Right.

[John Doe]

Think of how many Sallie Maes came from Kansas. They were the high school prom queen.

[Diane Warren]

And they came here and there was like a million of them.

[John Doe]

Oh, yeah. Can you imagine that moment where you look around and you realize you're like, you're working with the other prom queen that was from the other state.

[Diane Warren]

Yeah. Or the other city right next door to you that you didn't know. But, you know, growing up, like I said, right down the street from here, you know, Hollywood was a million miles away, too.

[John Doe]

Can you explain that a little bit?

[Diane Warren]

Well, just when I'd go, you know, going over the hill to have meetings, and it just seemed like it was almost like being from the Midwest, being in the Valley, but not the idealized thing, you know, not like, you know.

[John Doe]

So are your parents alive or. They passed away?

[Diane Warren]

No, no, they're gone. Yours both?

[John Doe]

Yeah, they're gone. Yeah.

[Diane Warren]

Yeah, we're orphans.

[John Doe]

So when did your mommy and daddy pass away?

[Diane Warren]

Well, my dad. A long time ago, and he was 70 in 87. My mom in 2002.

[John Doe]

Okay, so dad got to see some success.

[Diane Warren]

Yeah, yeah. Oh, he was. He'd call radio stations and, you know, and request songs.

[John Doe]

That's so amazing.

[Diane Warren]

Yeah, it was kind of cool.

[John Doe]

That must have felt.

[Diane Warren]

Yeah. And then I got a good friend from that because one of the people he called, I ended up becoming really good friends with.

[John Doe]

So. And your mother, how would she see your success?

[Diane Warren]

You know, she saw a lot of it. And she would say she's proud of me, but she wouldn't. You know, I'd say, you know, Mom, I just gotta check for, like, some ridiculous amount of money. She goes, well, how much are you gonna keep?

[John Doe]

Well, that's that old logic. Like, you're not. It's not gonna last.

[Diane Warren]

And in the Depression era. Cause my parents were older parents when they have me.

[John Doe]

Okay, last question. So did you prove whoever you're trying to prove wrong? A lot of them, but not all of them.

[Diane Warren]

Not all of them. Nice talking to you.

[John Doe]

You too. Thank you, Diane.

[Diane Warren]

You know. Thank.

[John Doe]

You.