Gavin Rossdale | The Magnificent Others with Billy Corgan

Summary

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The Magnificent Others with Billy Corgan

Episode: Gavin Rossdale | July 2, 2025

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Episode Overview

This episode features an extended, intimate conversation between host Billy Corgan (frontman of The Smashing Pumpkins) and Gavin Rossdale (lead singer of Bush). The two alternative rock veterans look back on their upbringings, musical journeys, the realities of immense success, and the challenges of authenticity in the music industry. They candidly wrestle with career turning points, artistic identities, the familial cost of fame, and mutual respect among contemporaries—all with humor, vulnerability, and genuine admiration.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Early Influences and Upbringing

• Family Background:

  • Gavin discusses growing up in London with divorced parents, being raised mainly by his father from age 12, and having a "bossy" older sister who pushed him musically and culturally.

    "I think my sister enjoyed the control over me, so I learned to be controlled by women at an early age."
    —Gavin Rossdale [02:23]

  • Experiences with absent mother, rough neighborhoods, and elite schooling created a feeling of being caught between worlds—a tension that later fueled his creativity.

• Punk Awakening and London in the 70s/80s:

  • His sister immersed him in punk culture, taking him to the iconic King's Road scene and exposing him to squats, punk fashion, and anarchic spirit.

    "I obsessed with the Sex Pistols and Johnny Lydon, that whole Richard III thing... It just spoke to me, that sort of rebellion."
    —Gavin Rossdale [09:24]

  • The punk ethos of personal autonomy and defiance became foundational, distinguishing his attitude and, later, artistic decisions.

2. Formative Years in Music & Songwriting

• Early Musical Exploration:

  • Started with bass at age 14, hanging around his sister’s boyfriend’s band and learning the rites of musical passage in "dank, squalor" rehearsal rooms.
  • Picked up the guitar at 16-17, initially focused on songwriting in the vein of Dylan and Neil Young—emphasizing lyrics over virtuosity.

• Songwriting Development:

  • Describes moving from collaborative to solitary songwriting out of necessity—which led to genuine artistic voice.

    "I'd always been sat with someone... I was like, oh, my God. You're such a phony. Like, you say you're a singer. Like, write a song already."
    —Gavin Rossdale [33:30]

  • Emphasizes the value of “improving the silence” with great music, not just contributing more noise.

    "You just should make things when you can improve the silence."
    —Gavin Rossdale [02:17]

3. The Alternative Rock Boom & Bush’s Unique Path

• Breaking Out: Industry Hurdles

  • Recounts industry rejections, stalled U.S. record deals (Disney’s Hollywood Records), and being dropped after the death of an A&R supporter.

    "At the company, they threw the CD at him and said not only are there no singles on this record, there's no album tracks."
    —Gavin Rossdale [00:09]/[37:34]

  • Navigating the height of Britpop in the UK, Bush’s “heavier” sound wasn’t what labels were seeking.

    "That was the height of Britpop...People were looking for, like, the next Pulp and Blur... Our style, I suppose..."
    —Gavin Rossdale [38:40]

  • Ultimately, U.S. radio (KROQ) starts playing Bush, leading to Interscope picking up 16 Stone after a convoluted label handoff.

• Handling Criticism and Authenticity Wars

  • Discusses being vilified by critics and bands as “inauthentic” or a “second-wave” grunge act.

    "It was like bursting into the best party ever and then, and you’re naked...I just always felt out of place, really out of place."
    —Gavin Rossdale [45:40]

  • The duo reflect on the '90s culture of pitting bands against each other and their evolving mutual respect—both having experienced harsh reviews and industry skepticism.

    "I made the same mistake that Steve [Albini] made with me, you know...and then eventually I’ll figure out, like, no, we’re actually all kind of in the same club."
    —Billy Corgan [54:55]

4. Creative Process, Evolution, and Endurance

• Musical Identity and Evolution:

  • Bush purposefully avoided blues-based rock clichés to establish their own “emphatic” sound.

    "I’m always like really proud of the fact that we avoided all or lots of blues changes."
    —Gavin Rossdale [20:16]

  • The importance of evolving across albums—Science of Things brings in London-inspired, electronic elements.

• Working with Steve Albini and the Pixies’ Influence:

  • Choosing Albini for the second album, bulk of tracks recorded live at Abbey Road, partly as a statement of distinction from Nirvana comparisons.

    "It was somewhat suicidal in the face of the criticism with Nirvana...but I just like...now you’ll see the difference between the bands."
    —Gavin Rossdale [63:17]

• Pandemic and Recent Creative Renewal:

  • In the 2020s, re-energized by new generations of fans, more confident in performance, and grateful for artistic resilience.

    "It’s just an exciting time. I have the freedom to make records. People still want to come."
    —Gavin Rossdale [76:24]

5. Life Beyond the Band: Family, Fame, and Reflection

• Familial Impact & Artistry vs. Parenthood:

  • Describes guilt and emotional complexity of touring as a parent; compares approaches to balancing family and career.
  • Billy shares homeschooling/touring anecdotes and framing show business as a family enterprise.

• Celebrity Marriage (to Gwen Stefani):

  • Reflects simply and warmly on the relationship, prioritizing emotional connection over celebrity trappings.

    "When I met her, it was just magic. It was just instant...she changed me so much."
    —Gavin Rossdale [71:45]

• Acting and Alternative Creative Pursuits:

  • Acting offered a creative outlet without the burden of starting from nothing; admits to missed opportunities but no regrets.

• The Cooking Show:

  • Discusses his recent foray into television with a home-based interview/cooking show, born from a desire to stay near his children and express himself outside of music.

    "I also wanted to find a way to get my voice back...I wanted to create a way of staying home."
    —Gavin Rossdale [88:19]

6. Legacy and Perspective on Rock’s Future

• Surviving and Thriving

  • Both artists reflect on surviving industry churn, critical barbs, and shifting musical eras.
  • They champion the diversity of the alternative rock movement (“the competition is within ourselves, not between bands”) and advocate for embracing new, younger rock acts as part of the genre’s continued vitality.

• Mental Health, Meaning, and Enduring Themes:

  • Rock music’s enduring conversations about melancholy, alienation, and internal struggle have become more culturally resonant.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Not Speaking Until Age Four:

  "Maybe I hadn't thought of anything good to say."
  —Gavin Rossdale [01:40]

• On Early Punk Scene:

  "Outside my house where we lived, the 31 bus right outside my house would go down to World's End... punks would be one side of the street... Seditionaries, Malcolm McLaren, Vivienne Westwood's shop."
  —Gavin Rossdale [08:29]

• On the Power of the Pixies:

  "It was the Pixies that I think cracked our heads open. We thought, we can be cool and play rock."
  —Billy Corgan [24:11]

• On feeling like an outsider:

  "I just always felt out of place, really out of place...I even had this weirdest thing. When I was a kid, I used to dream about Los Angeles."
  —Gavin Rossdale [45:50]

• On Steve Albini:

  "Steve was the real deal... If Steve held you up to that mirror, you kind of had to look at it and say, okay, why am I really doing this?"
  —Billy Corgan [54:55]

• On Writing and Editing:

  "For me... the better the song you write, the better the performance you give, the easier your life is anyway... I feel very, very in control and like the best at editing myself I've ever been in."
  —Gavin Rossdale [56:04]

• On Being a Parent AND an Artist:

  "I have deep, sort of conflicted emotions when I'm leaving... I feel like I'm betraying every single entity, person, my kids, my dog... But then you're out there, and it makes sense."
  —Gavin Rossdale [76:22]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [00:32] – Gavin’s early childhood, delayed speech, and reflections on family.
• [07:45] – Immersion in punk scene via his sister; effects on identity.
• [13:22] – The distinction between British shoegaze and expressive, performance-driven rock.
• [20:33] – Deliberate avoidance of the blues and defining Bush’s “non-traditional” rock sound.
• [22:00] – The Pixies' influence on Bush (and alternative rock in general).
• [37:34] – The label wars: rejections, setbacks, and eventual breakthrough in America.
• [45:40] – On sudden success, feeling like an outsider, and public scrutiny of authenticity.
• [54:55] – Steve Albini’s legacy, integrity in rock, and reconciling with former industry “rivalries.”
• [63:17] – Recording with Steve Albini at Abbey Road and strategic career choices.
• [71:45] – On marriage to Gwen Stefani and the personal impact vs. public perception.
• [88:19] – Gavin the Chef: creating a TV show centered on cooking and conversation.
• [84:52] – Advice and perspective for a new generation regarding Bush’s legacy and rock’s future.

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Closing Reflections

The episode offers a raw, relatable account of what it’s like to come up through the trenches of alternative rock, to find and hold onto a creative voice, to endure the slings and arrows of critics and changing tastes, and to persist—sometimes out of stubbornness, sometimes out of genuine passion. It's a celebration of friendship, vulnerability, and the messiness of both music and life. Both Billy and Gavin emerge as thoughtful survivors, deeply grateful to still be in the game and still connecting with listeners old and new.

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This summary was created to provide a rich, accessible, and structured recap for those who wish to engage with the insights of this extraordinary episode.

Transcript

[Billy Corgan]

My understanding is you kind of get a deal with Disney's Hollywood Records and they just kind of stall you for a while. You kind of do that spin that they would do.

[Gavin Rossdale]

Well, what happened is they, they, we delivered, they delivered the record that was 16 stone to them. And that's the story is according to the guy from our label, Rob Kahane, that they. The record at the company, they threw the CD at him and said not only there no singles on this record, there's no album tracks, and threw the record at him.

[Billy Corgan]

Everybody of course talks about Nirvana and there's good reasons for that, but really it was the Pixies that I think cracked our heads open. We thought we can be cool and play rock.

[Gavin Rossdale]

Yes.

[Billy Corgan]

It seemed to all kind of mash it together at the right moment.

[Gavin Rossdale]

I was lost. It'd be fair to say that I. What I. What I'd done exactly that point is I had been in London and my second band had failed and I was left looking what to do. And it's the first time in my life I was worried about it, cuz before that I had like the brazen youth, like it will come right. It will come right. And that was just the most helpful sort of signpost in the. In a. In a bleak. On a bleak mountain.

[Billy Corgan]

Thank you very much for being here.

[Gavin Rossdale]

Thank you for having me. I'm so thrilled.

[Billy Corgan]

We've known each other now about almost 30 years. Somewhere in there, somewhere around. Yeah, it's crazy.

[Gavin Rossdale]

And I was saying that I was so happy that so not many things are not surprising anymore. I got that call to come here and I was like, that's so exciting. Yeah, absolutely.

[Billy Corgan]

Okay, so let's start at the beginning. I usually like to start different places, but with you I want to start at the beginning. So is it true you didn't speak till you were four years old?

[Gavin Rossdale]

Yes, I think I had a bossy older sister, so she took care of a lot of that. And for whatever reason, there seemed to be no point. Maybe I hadn't thought of anything good to say.

[Billy Corgan]

Well, it wasn't a developmental thing. It wasn't tongue tied.

[Gavin Rossdale]

No, it just was a. Just a feral attribute. Early feral signs of life.

[Billy Corgan]

It's pretty early age to decide. You know what, I'm just not going to talk.

[Gavin Rossdale]

Yeah, I'm just, you know, I have this thing anyway about making music that, you know, there's. Because there's already too much music in the world, but not enough great music. It's like you just should make things when you can improve the Silence. And I couldn't figure out how to improve that silence.

[Billy Corgan]

That's an interesting.

[Gavin Rossdale]

I couldn't figure it out. And it was really, you know, I just sort of point what I needed. And I think my sister enjoyed the control over me. So I learned to be controlled by women at an early age.

[Billy Corgan]

We'll get to that. I didn't find a lot of information on what your parents were like.

[Gavin Rossdale]

Right. Yeah, Very interesting. It's sad in a way because when they met my dad was. Was doing driving rally cars. Was doing rally. But amateur. Right.

[Billy Corgan]

Doing rally driving but like F1 track type tracks or.

[Gavin Rossdale]

Or no.

[Billy Corgan]

Oh.

[Gavin Rossdale]

Road.

[Billy Corgan]

Rally.

[Gavin Rossdale]

Rally like way down the thing. But he was in a little.

[Billy Corgan]

This is where they go through the villages and you almost run people over.

[Gavin Rossdale]

Yeah. And then. And. And my mom was from Scotland, from a small town in Scotland and. And she'd come to London to be a model in, you know, swinging 60s or whatever. And when they met, they both. Well, he stopped driving and she stopped modeling to sort of like help, you know. I know to have a marriage. I thought it was a real shame they should have like continued on. Oh, okay. So they were together till I was 12 and then I grew up just with my dad.

[Billy Corgan]

But what were their personalities like?

[Gavin Rossdale]

Well, my dad is really. Was really. He passed a couple two few years ago. Three years ago, four years ago. It's so weird. Everything is two years ago now. Covid destroyed all timings.

[Billy Corgan]

Right.

[Gavin Rossdale]

My brain just goes everything. If I. If it's not now, it's two years ago.

[Billy Corgan]

Almost like pre Covid, postco rain. Do you feel that?

[Gavin Rossdale]

Yeah. BC literally. So he was a really gentle, really funny, sly like sushi chef. Like cut you up with wit but very demure, understated. And then my mom was really fun. She was like. Wanted just to. She was the best out at dinner, like you know, with a nice cold white wine and just like living the. Living the life. She was sort of. She lived like that. So it was an interesting balance between the two. So I think I. I have mostly my dad's characteristics. I think a little bit more laid back. Like I'm not the kind of artist that is in a room full of people just really wants to play everyone my new song. Some people want to do that. Check it out. And then everyone's sort of. Yeah, I'll do it. But it's. I'm. It's not my natural state.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah. Why did your parents get divorced?

[Gavin Rossdale]

You know, I think my mom wanted a. Was looking for a. Just a. That Bigger life. And I think that he was a bit more not looking for that big life. And so I think there's a disconnect there. And so I felt that she was searching, which I thought was a really good lesson to learn at 12, you know, that just to understand why someone leaves because they're searching for something. And we reconnected when I was about 20, mid-20s, you know, and I'd seen her every year, more or less, but it was, she had different husbands, boy and boyfriends and that. So it was a bit disconnected, which, you know, which is like really furtive ground for our world. That's really, really good. Yeah, that really good.

[Billy Corgan]

But I mean, is it, you know, it sounds a little bit like the John Lennon story where his mom kind of goes out of his life, she's around, but he ends up living with an auntie.

[Gavin Rossdale]

Right.

[Billy Corgan]

You know, so in this case, you're living with your father and I think an ant.

[Gavin Rossdale]

Yeah, my aunt for a while. And she, she, she.

[Billy Corgan]

But was that painful for you that your mom's kind of like.

[Gavin Rossdale]

Yeah, around. Well, she wasn't around. She moved out of, actually England for a couple of years.

[Billy Corgan]

Okay.

[Gavin Rossdale]

And then she moved out of town. So she was really elusive. I don't know where she was.

[Billy Corgan]

Was she just started living the gypsy life or.

[Gavin Rossdale]

Well, no. Two or three stepfathers, husbands that she would move with where. Wherever they were. So.

[Billy Corgan]

But did you feel abandoned by all that or.

[Gavin Rossdale]

Yeah, of course it was. When I, I, I think about it most now when I look at my kids that age and I just think, you know, they, you know, if I go upstairs and no one's getting the orange juice out of the fridge and they're like dumbfounded as how to put the, the glass of the orange juice together from the other side of the kitchen or going on tour. When I feel horrible, when I go on tour. And I just, it's easy now because a little bit older, but when they were really younger, just that guilt, that hollow guilt. So now I reflect on that a lot and I think that, wow, because there's no therapy then and no one said to me, ever, how you doing? You're right. I was a very mixed up kid. I lived in a quite a rough neighborhood, but then went to a really intellectual school. So I had the kind of like the, the split life where no one trusted me, no one liked me for, you know, it was sort of caught in two worlds. And so that creates inner worlds, you know, and those inner worlds are the reason we're here. That's how we got here.

[Billy Corgan]

So I knew a little bit about your history in. In late 70s 80s music scene. You know that you were around seeing some of these great artists that are now considered legendary and influential. But at the time they were just kind of punk rock or. I don't know who you were particularly influenced by. I saw a couple of things but I know that's probably a little bit more specific than that. But you. I think it was attributed to your sister.

[Gavin Rossdale]

Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

Kind of turned you on to this when you were about 12 or so. Yeah.

[Gavin Rossdale]

What happened is she was really very cool punk. So when punk hit she was really just.

[Billy Corgan]

Is she dressed punk and was punk?

[Gavin Rossdale]

Yeah, it's all the kind of the egg white in the hair and just Right return of it. And so it was like a real revolution. I mean it was a revolution in England.

[Billy Corgan]

It was still.

[Gavin Rossdale]

It.

[Billy Corgan]

I mean we realize it still now. It's. It's such a watershed moment in music.

[Gavin Rossdale]

Yeah. The Italians were. The green mohawks in Picadillo Circus are trying their best to keep it going. But it really had its moment then. Yeah. And so it's exciting to be part of that. So for me I fit into that role of the kind of the. The. The. The cute young kid who just was. Go along with him.

[Billy Corgan]

Like tagging along.

[Gavin Rossdale]

Yeah. And they. And the. Outside my house where we lived. The 31 bus right outside my house would go down to World's End. And that what we had there was on the King's Road was we had. The punks would be one side of the street and all congregating around seditionaries. Malcolm McLaren Vivian Westwood Shop. And then you'd have the Teds who they were meant to be the. You know, they're all fighting. I never saw mobs. That's like the left Army Ted's. That was. That was the. The. You know and then walking up and down. So we'd get 31 bus and we'd park up there and walk up and down the Kings Road all day. You know. Go into. Didn't have any money. Just like the. The bus money and then you know, stuff like that. So the beginning of public image. Public image played on the rooftop of. Of this. Of this building. We didn't get in. We were just all in the. You know.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah.

[Gavin Rossdale]

It was just like a 12 year old kid. You know. Just. It was all happening.

[Billy Corgan]

Amazing.

[Gavin Rossdale]

And so that really is. It really shook up the fire in me performance wise. Like I just obsessed with the Sex Pistols and Johnny Lydon just His performance and that whole Richard III thing, that whole stage thing was just. It was just. It was just brilliant. Everything about him was just. Was just everything that I sort of wanted to be, even though I was not. I was not a kid in a council estate. I was surrounded by council estates. But it just spoke to me that sort of rebellion and that sort of autonomy.

[Billy Corgan]

What about the rebellion spoke to you think?

[Gavin Rossdale]

I just think that the making your own way and sticking up for yourself and not. Not make. Make you a brat, but just make you have that sort of tenacity to just follow your own way. Like, for example, I used to go to school every day where they'd sing Latin hymns. Latin hymns. And I'm not religious at all, right. But I think that's where I learned my sense of cadence and melodies, because I would hear those things. I always use biblical references in my lyrics, believe it or not. And so during that time, for example, I'd sit in the church and I'd see people and I'd be like. Because I really did not feel connected to a God, a living God, you know, or a God that people see as traditionally. I was like, come on, we can't all be. Come on. I'd be looking around in the congregation or whatever if I go to. And I'd be you really? You really is that we really feel that, you know, And I've always disconnected from that. And then the biggest irony would be that my. I got a half brother who, with my dad, had three wives, but his first wife, he had a son with. And that son went on become like a really successful person in the church. He's like, okay, Bishop, that's interesting. Yeah. So there's a real. Between the two of us, definitely a wide range of things. Yeah, a wide range, a wide berth.

[Billy Corgan]

So what were some of the artists that you saw in those kind of early punk?

[Gavin Rossdale]

Well, the bet the thing was not

[Billy Corgan]

just punk too, because I, I, I'm. I'm more of a goth, you know, new waiver, but you know those. Because it's such an interesting period.

[Gavin Rossdale]

Yeah, well, at that time, I was too young to see the coolest bands that were happening. What, what happened for me is that I would. There was a record store at the top of my street. Like, the 31 bus was there on Fairfax Road. And then above it, this is like 30ft away, is the record store. So what they gave me was a. Was every week when I take my pocket money for doing chores around the house, cleaning stuff up wherever I could or not for My dad, I would get all these singles and I go up every week and I, you know. And so I just fell in love with all these different bands. X Ray Specs was probably my favorite. Sex Pistols uk. Well, not the UK subs, but I liked. I like this guy. Ian Jury. Yeah. Injury in the Blockheads. It just was Billericky, Dicky and all these. And what happened was. And then there was just some reggae thrown in. And then all these people around my house, all these like punks. They were like a couple of years older than me and I just thought they were so cool and they lived their life. There were squats with my sister. Take me to the squats. I just couldn't believe that these. It just seemed like freedom. It was like, you know, they're all like anarchy and freedom and they do the living. Squats around the corner from my house and we go to these mansion blocks. And I was like, just a token kid. So I like that spirit. So that just transferred. And really, the more that I think about it, even though I'm pushing maybe faster than you want. No, no. That's what got me into that performance of, you know, the time when I was making music in London. It didn't really. The. The whole Brit pop thing didn't have any performance connected, but there's nothing.

[Billy Corgan]

Was the Shoe Gazers. Right?

[Gavin Rossdale]

Yeah. And I love my Birdie Valentine. That's one of my favorite bands. But not to go and see, you know, go and see the Throwing Muses and it's not a big show, you know, and so I like that performance stuff. And, and, and that's what I liked about the. I never saw like. I loved the Gang of Four. I never saw them live. You know, they were just a little bit before I could get in places.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah.

[Gavin Rossdale]

So it was really like people like Perry, you know, Perry and Jane's Addiction I saw at this really tiny club in Portobello Road. And that just was just one of those life changing moments of just like. Yeah. To be mesmerizing. Like I'd seen Jim Morrison on. On video and I'd be like, you know, he's got this sinewy way on stage and he's trying to, you know, and I was trying to work out my own stage thing and starring in it, you know, being terrible and just like, what do the great people do? And. And that's why often it comes back around. And I think that that's what I love so much about the guitar sound that was hearing from, you know, from America with James With Alice and Chains. With yourself. You know, it just was. It was so much. It was exciting to me. You know, I didn't want to be people.

[Billy Corgan]

Now you're skipping ahead in my story.

[Gavin Rossdale]

Yeah. So my bad. But it just. I just. I've been thinking about it, so.

[Billy Corgan]

No, because. Because I. What I was. Where I was going to go next is. Is. When did you pick up a guitar? Like, we're in this arc. Did you pick up a guitar?

[Gavin Rossdale]

Well, I got given a bass when I was 14 and I used to take you beginning that began with that question. And my sister's boyfriend had a band, so what I did was like, just help them move gear around and go to the rehearsal rooms and, you know, rehearse rooms like I do. It's like, you know, that. That dank squalor, stink the worst. You know, everything sounds awful. Filthy mirrors, dirty sink. And I. And I love it.

[Billy Corgan]

You take.

[Gavin Rossdale]

I loved it.

[Billy Corgan]

I'm still like.

[Gavin Rossdale]

I know. I just. It just sort of felt that I was there to get something done.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah.

[Gavin Rossdale]

It just felt like I didn't. You don't want it. That everyone would do it. Like, if it was. If it was like sort of flying first class in Emirates to do. To do a band, literally too many people would be doing it. I like the fact you have to go through this rite of passage and you have to accept the stink.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah. So when do you start playing the guitar?

[Gavin Rossdale]

The guitar was probably 16, 17, and just. Just getting really trying to understand how people wrote this sort of Dylan, Neil Young.

[Billy Corgan]

Right.

[Gavin Rossdale]

Busking.

[Billy Corgan]

Simple is more. You were thinking of it as a

[Gavin Rossdale]

songwriting all as a songwriter. I mean, it's only much later on that I just was. I started studying much more and I went to see a great guitar teacher I still work with today, the legendary Jean Marc. He's very well known in la. And I said to him, because he teaches. Was working with my guitar player, Chris, and I said to him, will you come and teach me? You know, I'm. I need to. I'm getting lost around the net. This is ridiculous. You know, I need to get lost together. And he goes, I said, by the way, I'm really. I'm a songwriter. I'm not. I'm not. I'm not Chris, you know, don't. Don't be. He goes, yeah, but your compositions are awesome. So he was. So, yeah, it began like that. And. Yeah, it just began like that. I think it began much for me more lyrically was what I felt that I could offer first. More than being Able to come in and being any good at, you know, rearranging four chords.

[Billy Corgan]

There's this. The span you were in Midnight, which I didn't know about till I started studying you up.

[Gavin Rossdale]

Right.

[Billy Corgan]

I was kind of surprised. What's interesting to me when I heard it was you sound like you even then you're singing.

[Gavin Rossdale]

Right.

[Billy Corgan]

Your cadence of your singing and your voice is already there.

[Gavin Rossdale]

Right.

[Billy Corgan]

So it sounds like the Gavin that we all know, but basically in front of a synth band is. That's a fair.

[Gavin Rossdale]

Yeah, well, what happened is that I had this amazing. Because it all comes through ignorance from my perspective, it all comes through sort of pushing yourself. So when I was leaving school, I just thought it'd be so great to be a singer, because that really was like.

[Billy Corgan]

Never crossed your mind before?

[Gavin Rossdale]

Well, yeah, I was in a band at school, but we spent most of our time discussing what the name of the band was and playing jam songs. We did three or four jam covers. So it just was like nothing was. We couldn't get anything going. And then.

[Billy Corgan]

Okay, but what period of the jam?

[Gavin Rossdale]

Down the tube station at midnight.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah. Right, okay. Because, you know, if you're a jam person, you got to kind of pick your period.

[Gavin Rossdale]

Right? Right. No, we didn't get into the style council, even though I did like those records. Paul Weller, I think is really amazing. Really incredible.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah.

[Gavin Rossdale]

So I had the weird thing about just. I used to sing verses and songs into a tape recorder and say, the guy I didn't know enough. I'd be like, you must have a lot of chords. You know, I was given the chance to play and sort of people I knew my school, and I was like, you know, I say play like, you know, the Stone Roses, you know, it's really happening. I said, what. What are the. We're showing what are indie chords? And I remember the guitar flow, Midnight going. To me, that's just people that can't play very well.

[Billy Corgan]

That's kind of true in a way, but I was like, but they work.

[Gavin Rossdale]

Yeah, yeah, but. But there's a barbarism to it that. That. That is essential that. That he was missing that. That is that. I. I tuned too much later, so I got better at guitar. And all that happened is that then the next band I was in, which had a number of names with a.

[Billy Corgan]

Throw one at me, if you could.

[Gavin Rossdale]

There's the Little Jukes. There was. I heard about that head with two Ds. But then there's another bit. So that was the Little Dukes, right? But he was a really good guitar player. He is a really good guitar player, but really super bluesy. Now, for whatever reason, the blues don't sit with me. Me, I've done. Have never really used the blues.

[Billy Corgan]

Apart from. Can I say something I love? Because when Jane's Addiction first started Breaking America, there was an article in Rolling Stone and they were in the rehearsal room with James and the line that really stuck out in my head was, Dave was playing something and Perry said, no blues. Because if you think of James, they solved the problem of playing rock without sounding bluesy.

[Gavin Rossdale]

Yeah. I mean.

[Billy Corgan]

Right. Somehow they sound epic. There's playing the same chords, but it doesn't sound bluesy.

[Gavin Rossdale]

Right.

[Billy Corgan]

Which growing up in Chicago, you know, there's always the shadow of the blues, of course. Especially if you do A to D to E. It's like that's every blue song ever.

[Gavin Rossdale]

Right, right. Well, it's just a sound, isn't it? That, that. And that's why I never like it. I always bristle when everyone says cause Bush, rock and roll. Because I'm always like really proud of the fact that we avoided all or lots of blues changes.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah. I. I have a bit in here about that. So like hold.

[Gavin Rossdale]

I mean, hold that thought a little bit. Slide, obviously is bluesy that we did all over the first record and that thing. But.

[Billy Corgan]

But I don't think I. I think you've completely avoided.

[Gavin Rossdale]

Yeah, yeah, we have. It's a certain sound and I'm.

[Billy Corgan]

But let me get to that, please. What I try to do when I talk to somebody that I like is I try to think like, what don't I know? And oftentimes what surprises me is there's a lot. A lot of things I thought I knew. I don't know. Right. And. And then when I fill it in, I get a much more three dimensional picture of what actually happened.

[Gavin Rossdale]

Right.

[Billy Corgan]

You know what I mean? And especially because we were both doing it at the same time. Right. You know, your memory is like. Like images flashing by in a window. But to slow it all down and go back through it, like made me appreciate things about you that I hadn't appreciated before. So that's kind of what I want to get at. But I. You got to let me get there. So when did you first start hearing. You know, obviously there was things like the Valentine's. My bloody Valentine in UK is as early as I think 89 that was going on. And there was bands like Ride and stuff like that. And then obviously across the pond, as you all say, there was the Seattle Thing there was what was going on in Minneapolis, like, what part of all that?

[Gavin Rossdale]

And.

[Billy Corgan]

Right. What. What part of all that, like, first got your attention and around what year?

[Gavin Rossdale]

The year might be tough. Whenever. Surfer Rosa. I was obsessed with four AD records, you know. Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

Oh, it's 80.

[Gavin Rossdale]

88. Four AD surfer Rosa.

[Billy Corgan]

88. Eight or nine?

[Gavin Rossdale]

88. 89. So what happened was.

[Billy Corgan]

Is that the album after Dolittle?

[Gavin Rossdale]

No, it's before.

[Billy Corgan]

Okay, Right.

[Gavin Rossdale]

So it was like.

[Billy Corgan]

You're talking about the Pixies. So they're like, what the hell?

[Gavin Rossdale]

So what happened is. Is that like, Aerosmith were ruling the world. Or like hair metal bands, right?

[Billy Corgan]

Oh, yeah.

[Gavin Rossdale]

They're doing rock now. When I would listen to those, I'd enjoy Aerosmith, which are super bluesy, who are super boozy, but only because I just couldn't believe his voice is just the most incredible instrument, you know, One of the greatest voices of all time, I think. So I loved him, but I felt really disconnected from any ability to go anywhere near that style of music. It just. It just seemed I didn't have the pants tight enough. So when I. When I. When I played the Pixies.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah.

[Gavin Rossdale]

And I remember the moment because the most beautiful artwork. Vaughan Oliver, who I subsequently hired to do Razor Blade Suitcase, right quick. Because I love him so much. If I couldn't get signed to the label, I might as well use their art director. Right? And. And when I put that record on and I opened just the. The. The Steve sound. Well, it was the sound of the Pixies, but actually Steve's sound, which is just Steve's drum sound. And then hearing, you know, Michael Frank, Black, whatever, singing, I suddenly realized that was. That it was possible to make rock music. Emphatic music.

[Billy Corgan]

I think we all had the same realization of the thing like that. I think we all had the same realization almost the exact same time. Cobain talked about it a lot.

[Gavin Rossdale]

Right.

[Billy Corgan]

I saw them in that exact same period and I had the same revelation. It's like, how do you. How are you generating this power? But you don't sound like all those other bands. It was. Everybody, of course, talks about Nirvana, and there's good reasons for that, but really, it was the Pixies that I think cracked our heads open. We thought, we can be cool and play rock.

[Gavin Rossdale]

Yes.

[Billy Corgan]

It seemed to all kind of mash it together at the right moment.

[Gavin Rossdale]

I was lost. It'd be fair to say that I. What I. What I'd done exactly that point is, I had been in London and my second band had failed. And I was left looking what to do. And it's the first time in my life I was worried about it because before that I had, like, the brazen youth. Like, it will come right. It will come right. And that was just the most helpful sort of signpost in the. In a. In a bleak. On a bleak mountain of where to head towards, you know, and then you have to make your way, you know, Kim being the perfect foil for him. You know, there's certain. So many things about it you can't emulate, you can't do. They were unbelievable. But that was where I really felt liberated. That there was hope, there was a. There was a way forward. You know, you have to forward your own way. And if you look at. Then you get into, like, you find Fugazi and you find, you know who. I just. Just think they're the greatest band. That turned me on to the Jesus Lizard. That's why I was listening to all of. All of the. Steve.

[Billy Corgan]

We had a lot of that in Chicago because Jesus was Chicago. And everybody would come through and play the metro in Chicago. So we got every one of those bands. I saw Happy Mondays open for the Pixies undo little.

[Gavin Rossdale]

Wow.

[Billy Corgan]

Packed metro. I mean, you couldn't move, right? And of course, the Mondays were an hour and a half late because the lead singer was getting a VD shot.

[Gavin Rossdale]

Oh.

[Billy Corgan]

So the Mondays made everybody wait an hour and a half to start the gig. And when the Mondays came on to play, the crowd booed him out of the building. And the Mondays being Manchester, right? One of these. And they just started playing. And by the end, the crowd loved them. I've never seen a band turn a hating, growing object crowd into loving them into 60 minutes like I've seen in that gig. And then after that was in the Pixies doing Doolittle in that. In that moment in Chicago, you know, with Steve and his whole world there, because obviously the connection. So that was really. Those were really interesting ground zero moments, you know.

[Gavin Rossdale]

Right.

[Billy Corgan]

Saw Soundgarden same time, you know, Louder Than Love, that tour.

[Gavin Rossdale]

Yeah, that was. That was. You see, that. That for me was just the record. Because I was stuck in London, so I would hear that record when I heard that loud. Yeah. Of. I just. I just. I. I feel that confusion of, like, one.

[Billy Corgan]

What is this?

[Gavin Rossdale]

Yeah, yeah, like.

[Billy Corgan]

And I remember the first time I heard them, I think I couldn't tell if they were taking the piss. And actually, some people I knew were like, oh, it's a joke. They're not really playing Heavy. They're pretending to play heavy.

[Gavin Rossdale]

Right.

[Billy Corgan]

But then you'd listen to Chris singing. You think, I don't know. If they're pretending. There's no way you could sing like that.

[Gavin Rossdale]

And of course, Alice in Chains are great.

[Billy Corgan]

Fantastic.

[Gavin Rossdale]

And that man in the box was, you know, Dave Jordan. It just was like there was hope. It was just sort of. It felt like that was when it made sense that I began my journey really focusing on the words and thinking that other people were doing the music and inadvertently, people weren't doing the music. So when my second band, where the guy wouldn't let me play, I wasn't, you know, he didn't want me to play guitar because he was a really, really good guitar player. But the point about it is, as we know, it's not about being the best guit as having the right chords to support the song.

[Billy Corgan]

Even the. Even the feelings.

[Gavin Rossdale]

Right. So to support the song. And so it just unlocks something in me. But it's interesting because. But what about with you? Did you. When did you start playing guitar because you're so musical? That must have been an early journey. You didn't. You didn't know. Like a ragamuffin like me coming in late with, you know, my father was.

[Billy Corgan]

My father was a professional musician, so. And he was a really great guitar player. So I started playing about 82, but I wanted to be a metal guitar player. So all my. Thank you. All my early playing was all shredding.

[Gavin Rossdale]

Right.

[Billy Corgan]

Of course. Ingbae Malmsteen, Richie Blackmore, Eddie Van Halen.

[Gavin Rossdale]

Right.

[Billy Corgan]

That's all I did for the first couple years. And then I had a disabled brother. I still have a disabled brother. And because I had to take care of him a lot, I would be stuck inside the house. So I would play the guitar sitting on the bed, and I. And I would think it was so boring just to play chords. It sounded so boring to me. So I started playing that style where it would sound like two guitars at once. I'd never heard the Cure, and the first time I heard the Cure, I was like, wow, somebody plays like me because of that Susie, the Banshees or whatever that style is, that open style. And that's when I started to merge this idea of metal, you know, and this idea of, like, let's call it alternative guitar.

[Gavin Rossdale]

Right, right, right. You know, so long time to catch up. Hey, that's my thing now.

[Billy Corgan]

I mean, I was doing that stuff in. I actually. I had a band called the Marked at that plate in Florida that Played that style in 85. So I was combining Sisters of Mercy and Metallica in 85.

[Gavin Rossdale]

Wow.

[Billy Corgan]

But the band wasn't very good, so I gave it up. And then I picked it back up when Jimmy Chamberlain joined the Pumpkins. And that's when we started playing rock. So we were playing rock by 88 in earnest. And then we'd see bands coming through, like Soundgarden and Jane's and stuff like that. We open for Jane's, and so we start to see this. Like, there's this other thing happening. So that's kind of where that all came from. But it all came from having played metal first.

[Gavin Rossdale]

Right.

[Billy Corgan]

Not new wave.

[Gavin Rossdale]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's the great things. Like working. When I work with Paige Hamilton.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah, great. We. I. I'm pretty sure we either opened for them once or I saw them once.

[Gavin Rossdale]

Right.

[Billy Corgan]

On that. On the famous album.

[Gavin Rossdale]

Right. Meantime.

[Billy Corgan]

Oh, are you kidding?

[Gavin Rossdale]

Yes.

[Billy Corgan]

Because nobody was really playing downtune then.

[Gavin Rossdale]

Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

So when you heard it live.

[Gavin Rossdale]

Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

And it was a place that held like maybe 200 people.

[Gavin Rossdale]

Right. Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

So good.

[Gavin Rossdale]

We did. I did a. You know, I always wanted to. You know, you always. Somewhat chasing. Especially when you're young. You're like chasing a tire. I thought, I know if I do a side project, it's going to look really creative. Look, it's really cool. People do side projects, you know, on Touch and Go. They do side projects in, like four weeks and then go back to. I was on Interscope, so it took me a couple of years of Jimmy Ivy making me write hit singles. I'm like, this is a side project. I'm just trying to be on. I meant to be on Matador Records, you know, what are you doing to me? I want to go back to my other band afterwards. And, you know. And Paige came in to produce us.

[Billy Corgan]

So it's just for context. You're talking about Institute. After Bush broke up. Yeah, you do this.

[Gavin Rossdale]

They took a break. And one guy had. The guitar player felt, you know, he wanted to spend more time with his kids. And I said, I want to do this side project. So I always thought it looked cool when people do side projects, you know, and for whatever reason, I thought it'd be a fun thing. And. But so I had a few songs and detune songs as really fun. D down a C. And Paige said, you know, I love to do the record. And he goes, as we're leaving, the meeting goes. All the songs are in C. Right. And drop. I was like, yeah. So you hadn't written. I Hadn't written them. I was like, yeah, of course they are going off and just wrote a whole lot.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah.

[Gavin Rossdale]

And so getting to that whole dune thing was really fun. I obsessed with detuned guitar now.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah.

[Gavin Rossdale]

It's the whole world.

[Billy Corgan]

Just so you know. I have a. I have a new guitar model that's tuned D to D. Wow. So it's the whole normal guitar dropped a whole step down. And then if you want to drop it, then it's C. The dad guide. Yeah, no, no, it's the whole guitars. D, G. Right. C, F. It's normal guitar. It's a little slightly longer.

[Gavin Rossdale]

Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

And it's pitched forward. Downtown guitar. Oh, so I gotta get you one.

[Gavin Rossdale]

I've got to get one.

[Billy Corgan]

It's good.

[Gavin Rossdale]

It's really make it.

[Billy Corgan]

With Rev. Yeah.

[Gavin Rossdale]

Oh, wow.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah. I've done four signature guitars with Rev. So this is the fourth.

[Gavin Rossdale]

Wow.

[Billy Corgan]

People love it. It sounds Chef's kiss. Really? Sure, Chef. Now. All right, so let's go back. Got to keep you on my. My little timeline here.

[Gavin Rossdale]

Here.

[Billy Corgan]

So you meet Nigel, 1991, somewhere on there. Future Primitive.

[Gavin Rossdale]

Yep.

[Billy Corgan]

I didn't know that was the original name. So was your intention with Nigel? Okay. I want to do this type of music.

[Gavin Rossdale]

What happened with him is that I met him, we. Through a friend of ours and we had like a long night together and we were just playing. He loved the Gun club birthday party. And it was just really exciting getting to know someone who could play. You see, because I'd been limited to the musicians I knew the last guy was so. Was too bluesy for me. So it was like doing my. Every time we do solos, be like, why? Why is it? What I'm meaning was, is that the blue sound is just not good for me. It's just like, you know, if John Mayer, who's an amazing blues guitar player, but if he played on my stuff, it was something like that. So I try to convince him to do a band together, you know, and he said to me, look, I'm doing these training videos for clients. And they were paying a thousand pounds a time. He's maybe doing a couple of weeks. He says, well, I can't really afford to take the time out to write songs with you. If you have songs, why don't I just demo them for you?

[Billy Corgan]

So that's interesting.

[Gavin Rossdale]

That's where it all began, that I wrote songs on my own. So I went and I was like, I sat.

[Billy Corgan]

You never really wrote songs on your own before?

[Gavin Rossdale]

Never. I'd always been sat with someone.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah.

[Gavin Rossdale]

So then I was like, oh, my God. I was like, you're such a. Of phony. Like, you say you're a singer. Like, write a song already. So I sat down, started writing songs, and I was, like, amazed that.

[Billy Corgan]

Okay.

[Gavin Rossdale]

Oh, okay, if you. And I found. It was like this liberation. And so I'd write and I'd take him. Like, the first song I took him was Come down and I. And. And he demoed up so good. And I was like, oh, my God, this is incredible. And it felt. I felt so free because I felt constrained by the other bands because I had no control over the music. I could say what I liked, but I wasn't physically playing it, so it was a bit limiting. And by getting by to write the songs myself. And then he plays on top. He's doing all the Joey Santiago, all the semitone stuff, and everything's all happening. And he even did when we did the. That was when Billy Cobham had that Safe From Harm. The Massive Attack had that sample out on their record Unsafe From Harm. And that fit. It's similar. So I remember sitting in my bath in my apartment in London and thinking, that's it. It doesn't matter. I'm just now in a cool band. I'm never gonna be successful. But the point is, this is. Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

Finally cool.

[Gavin Rossdale]

I was. Because every time I'd. I played demos for people and they. They would be like. They'd look at me like it wasn't cool. And I'd be thinking to myself, I know it's not that cool, but it was just this terrible disconnect. So this was the first time he'd be playing stuff. I'd be like, oh, my God. And he. He was a master, Nigel, of finding the right notes. Just. He could find the right notes, however simple they were. I mean, the. The machine head, the intro, it's just these octaves. It's nothing. Yeah. Yet in that moment, in that time, on that. In that. That. So the alchemy of those two notes of his chords. Brilliant. Yeah. This is so good. And he always would do it. He'd always find those notes and elevate whatever I did. So then when I go back to him, I say, I take the pressure off now. So finally, can we write together? You know, now. Now we'll go back to normal. He says, no, this is working great. I'm making my money and you're bringing me good songs. So once we built up a repertoire of, say, 12 songs, he said, let's. Let's try a band. Let's rehearse them out, see what it's like. So I had a friend of mine who's a screenwriter. Is a screenwriter. He subbed in at drums for us for a while and he was a really. He's a jazz drummer so he was really fun and he was on heroin at the time. He really had a laid back, good feel. Right. And, and, and we had this bass player, Malcolm, who's lovely Swedish guy Malcolm. Pardon? I always. I thought there might be a problem in future the bass player called Malcolm Pond. But he's a really amazing bass player. He left and then I got this drummer called Amir who's Iranian jazz drummer. Because I love jazz drummers in rock, you know.

[Billy Corgan]

Is it because of the swing in it?

[Gavin Rossdale]

It's the feel. Yeah. You know, I mean I, I would consider like Jimmy has that feel. Yeah. Matt. Matt from South. You know.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah. There's an internal swing.

[Gavin Rossdale]

Yes. As opposed to much more.

[Billy Corgan]

It's weird when you play with the guy who's a great drummer but doesn't have the internal swing. Yeah, it feels a little too.

[Gavin Rossdale]

Yeah, yeah. It's. That's. That's most rock drummers for me. So. So then he left to join a 12 piece jazz band just before we signed our record deal. I was so sad to lose Amir. He was brilliant. And. And then we got Robin who's a great drummer but much more straight. Straight straighter. But he did great for us. And then now these last few years I've got a drummer who's much more in the middle with a great. With a lot of as he chops and vibe. So.

[Billy Corgan]

Nick Hughes, walk me through this. I mean we don't have to go too long into it but my understanding is you kind of get a deal with Disney's Hollywood Records and they just kind of stall you for a while. You kind of do that spin that they would do.

[Gavin Rossdale]

Well, what happened is they, they. We delivered. They delivered the record that was 16 stone to them. And that's the story is according to the. The guy from our label, Rob Kahane, that, that they. At the record, at the company, they threw the CD and said not only are those singles on this record, there's no album tracks and threw the record at him because Frank Wells who'd signed us got killed in a helicopter crash. So we're being reviewed by the team there, the subsequent team there, you know, and they, they dropped us.

[Billy Corgan]

Was Frank Wells killed in that crash with Stevie Ray Vaughan and I don't know.

[Gavin Rossdale]

No, I don't think so. The Same crash, but it was just a helicopter crash. So I was just so confused, you know, because I did the record. Then I went back to work, you know, I was back. I was back painting. So I was like, okay, you made the record. I had no idea what was possible. No one told me what was possible. I didn't know what was possible. I was living in London, you know,

[Billy Corgan]

and you're dealing with American record company, right?

[Gavin Rossdale]

Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah.

[Gavin Rossdale]

So I didn't know what, you know.

[Billy Corgan]

Was there not interest in you guys in the uk?

[Gavin Rossdale]

There was interest to rock. There was. There was. That was the height of Brit pop. Right. So that was. That was. People were looking for, like, the next Pulp.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah.

[Gavin Rossdale]

And the next Oasis and. And Blur and our style, I suppose. So I was. I was well known enough to the whole community to make. To get demo time, so I could always afford to go and make the demos. I've never hear back what they thought of the demos, but I quietly was building up the repertoire of, like, having the real band because Nigel would do the stuff at his house and then we go in and so all those recordings were paid for by, you know, all the different labels in London.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah.

[Gavin Rossdale]

So we just like, okay, thank you. 3. Get three days in the studio and just try and do, you know, you do four songs, you know, that sort of thing, and you cram it. And so then when I got this, then I did a TV show called. It was. It was the midweek show on Channel 4 for a TV show, and they always showed an unsigned band and they did a video. So that. That worked as a video for us. Went to this guy in America and then we had all. All the songs that was all 16 stone.

[Billy Corgan]

Wow.

[Gavin Rossdale]

And they. They said, he's like, oh, yeah, we'll sign him. And then everyone was like, don't sign with a guy in the Valley thing. He's crazy. And I was like, or do what? Or do what? Sometimes in life you got to jump. Jump?

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah.

[Gavin Rossdale]

So we just decided to jump. And this is Interscope. Well, no, that was the trauma then. So we did the record then. Then. Then they said, oh, distribution's falling through. What does that mean? You know, with Dumb Young. What does that mean? Well, there's no one to distribute the record.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah. We could put it out, but no one's gonna. Yeah, yeah.

[Gavin Rossdale]

There's no one to take it from store to store. Literally can't distribute it. Oh, what do you do about that? Don't worry. Just leave it with us. So then I got the. You know, that was Working. And I was doing 11 dentist offices. I've said that story, but so very Kafka because there was sort of large offices painted in magnolia color. So it was very weird, which is

[Billy Corgan]

this over and over.

[Gavin Rossdale]

And I was like, yeah, and. But I didn't feel bad because I sort of felt quite excited that I'd made a record I was proud of. I felt good. I felt like, okay, so where's life going to take you now? You know, you're a musician, you have this record. My aunt, who I grew up with and was like my second mum to me, like you brought up to me. She knew this guy called Colin and he'd made one record and it was just cool as when he came around because he was on a record, he was like sort of a. He did the sort of a yacht rock, early yacht rock stuff. I don't know what it was, but it's just like he had. She had a record with Colin on it. He had a record and he came around to the house and I just. Because she lived with us, you know, I just thought, that's so cool. So, like, I've done it, I've got a record now. Let's see what you know. You're young and just bouncing around and getting on with like life. And then when they said, oh, come to. You have to come to la. Krock's playing your. Your song. It's a. It's a hit on kroc. I was like, that's amazing. What is?

[Billy Corgan]

They know. Did they even. Because, you know they were even putting it out.

[Gavin Rossdale]

No.

[Billy Corgan]

No one even told you?

[Gavin Rossdale]

No, no.

[Billy Corgan]

That's such a record label thing.

[Gavin Rossdale]

Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

So what they probably did is throw it at the wall to see if it would stick.

[Gavin Rossdale]

Well, no, what they did is they. They had got the interest from Kroc, Kevin started playing it, then Ted Field heard it. The nrd me from his car on camera and he. So then I say. He said, come to America. I remember it was in the middle. Come to America. Your record is really taking off at Kroc and we need you to come out here. So I came back out and then they took me to the record company to see Jimmy and Ted. And now I've been to all these labels before and been rejected 100 times. So I was like, what? I've flown all this way. I don't understand. I thought you were my record deal. I was so naive. Just an independent label. Yeah. We don't have the capacity to distribute the record we just signed to us.

[Billy Corgan]

Okay, so Interscope wanted to basically do a deal with Trauma because of your record.

[Gavin Rossdale]

Yeah. So they did, they. They did the distribution and that's how then. And then that's when no Doubt, who had been languishing on the five years, you know, making the record, that's when they got picked up. Jimmy said, go with this guy. Look what he's done with this band. And that guy did it for them as well. That's how that worked.

[Billy Corgan]

That's crazy.

[Gavin Rossdale]

So that's how it worked. So that's how that. Yeah, that was it. So isn't it amazing how life is like these. Just like a knife edge of things? Like these things, they weren't like could have been.

[Billy Corgan]

It had been that one day that somebody decided no and know you, you. We would know who you are.

[Gavin Rossdale]

There was no feeding frenzy. There was no feeding.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah, well, we got rejected 20 times, you know, before we got signed. And even then they were kind of like, okay, we're going to give you this little side deal. So I know that feeling. You're like, you're waiting and waiting and you're like, what are we waiting for? Is. It's either. It's either a yes or a no.

[Gavin Rossdale]

I feel like I'm still waiting.

[Billy Corgan]

Waiting for what, though?

[Gavin Rossdale]

Well, that's the thing. Just the next step. Just what is it, you know, to just, you know, how are the wolves really at the door? You know, I think that some people have it. I don't mind it. I sort of feels quite. It feels solid to be always in a situation where you are making your own way.

[Billy Corgan]

Okay.

[Gavin Rossdale]

It feels like that, you know, like I don't know what it feels like for you, but it never stops being a fight. Never stops being. It's to convince people of this. I want to do that. It's never. Nothing's easy. Nothing. Of course. What a great idea. Here, let's help you do that. You know, it's just always a bit like, a bit challenging.

[Billy Corgan]

My thing is I finally realized the fight is my. With me. It took me about 40 years to figure that one out.

[Gavin Rossdale]

Right.

[Billy Corgan]

It's strictly with me. I've been fighting me the whole time.

[Gavin Rossdale]

It's worked for you.

[Billy Corgan]

Yes and no. Okay, so I love that you've explained all this because it does help me understand because of course, you know, I'm just in a band and hear you guys come and suddenly you're on the radio and all that stuff. And as you know, I was very critical at the time of what I perceived as second wave bands, the bandwagon you know, suddenly like, oh, now everybody wants to do grunch. You know what I mean?

[Gavin Rossdale]

Everybody's sad.

[Billy Corgan]

Sure. You know, a minor for to intern to eternity. So how did you. Because you're telling a beautiful story, which is like, you know, it just kind of happened. And I had faith and I found the right guy and we did the thing and here we are and it looks like nothing's going to happen. And suddenly it's happening and suddenly I'm in LA and Jimmy Iovine wants to talk to me.

[Gavin Rossdale]

Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

You know, and then boom, you're thrown in. You're as red meat into this culture award that was going on in America about authenticity, about who sounds like who and who has a right to play loud guitar and it all that. How did that, how did you feel about all that?

[Gavin Rossdale]

Well, it was like bursting into the best party ever and then, and you're

[Billy Corgan]

naked, you're very good looking, so it wouldn't be such a bad fact.

[Gavin Rossdale]

I just mean the idea that you, you know, I, I, I think that before I found a way to, to connect with people that like the band, I just always felt out of place, really out of place. Like I just knew that there was something. I even had this weirdest thing. When I was a kid, I used to dream about Los Angeles. I had no reality, no connection or no justification for that. It just seemed to be some sort of Xanadu, some place that could save me and someplace that I just wanted to get away from. Where I was, I was desperate to get away. It seemed so gray and, and dark and dour and I just, just couldn't, I just, all I could think of Los Angeles, but I'd had nothing tangible that would justify that. It just was a notion, an idea, you know?

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah, well, like, like a Shangri La, right?

[Gavin Rossdale]

Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

So, but I just want to persist in the question a little bit more because I remember this very acutely and you and I talked about it around those times, but, but I want to hear your, your impression now. It's not an easy place to be if you're being held up as the example of something, you know, especially. And, and I, and I learned to know this about you over time. I didn't have that impression at the time, but over time I, I gained, I think, what is a more refined impression of what you were doing musically. But it couldn't have, it couldn't have been easy to kind of be given a certain amount of stick about it.

[Gavin Rossdale]

Yeah, well, it was, it was so, like, it was as if When I got going and selling the records or having people come to the shows, I felt suddenly I was in the right place. This is where I should be. This is why I was like hanging on to the rope. Wouldn't let go through all the things going past me. So therefore it was disappointing to not be, you know, to have that disconnect for people. Yeah, because it was like from, in our journey. It was like, damn, I don't know. We just wrote these songs and like everyone said no for so long and then somehow we, we got in, we snuck in the door and suddenly we're inside the building and people like it. Don't, don't, I don't know. So we were sort of vilified for that. But yeah, it was, it was, it was, I think it was hardest or the biggest disappointment was, was from contemporaries with journalists, it just was sort of, it seemed par for the course. One of my favorite things I ever did was interview Marky Smith. The four were massive band for me. I love the four. Great band, Just amazing.

[Billy Corgan]

What a, what a brilliant lyricist and. Yeah, all of it.

[Gavin Rossdale]

And when I would, did it, I did an interview with him once for Q magazine and we, we, we were interviewed by the same journalist. And I've never seen anyone terrorize a journalist better than Markie Smith. It was just unbelievable. And I was just so naive and not good at it. And I always, you know, I kept thinking I should have been more cynical. I should have been more, you know, I should have, you know.

[Billy Corgan]

That's not your nature though.

[Gavin Rossdale]

No, it wasn't. So. But it didn't serve me well because I just would go into these interviews in these situations, like kind of gauntlessly and just open and then just be, and then can just kind of be a savaged.

[Billy Corgan]

Well, at least you understand maybe a little bit better now why I was the way I was then.

[Gavin Rossdale]

Right.

[Billy Corgan]

I, I wouldn't take that.

[Gavin Rossdale]

Yeah, well, the thing is, I wasn't savage in the moment. I was there was all it was.

[Billy Corgan]

So they would come at me in the moment.

[Gavin Rossdale]

Oh, right. No, I was never. I, I, I would have, I would have preferred that because it's not like, you know, it's like I grew up in a major city, so I'm perfectly good with confrontation. It's some, it's sometimes easier because then I know this is where we're at

[Billy Corgan]

just, yeah, just this is where we're at the table.

[Gavin Rossdale]

When you're, when you're just sort of, when you're naive and waffling and just Full of youth and nonsense that could be just like, you know, tailor made, any way you like. I did have a guy come up to me at, actually at Sasha's house that my ex drummer guy helped me out, a guy from Rolling Stone who had said to me, he said I'd go. He waited till other people had gone into another room. There's a whole big dinner. And he wanted to talk to me on my own. And he said, I want to really apologize to my review of Razor Blade Suitcase. There was an editorial slant and I was told. And Steve Albini had said, you should listen to this band. You must listen to this band. Don't count this band out. They're much more interesting than you think. And he said, he said, I wouldn't do it. And I savaged you. And I want to apologize for that. I said, well, I sure hope you feel better.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah. To give, to give some context to what you're saying. I've met journalists through the years and they were, would. They would turn in a review of our records and the editor would say, you need to go back and rewrite this and slag the band or you're going to lose your job.

[Gavin Rossdale]

That's so weird because I don't think of you like that. I think of the Pumpkins as such a. Oh, we got horrible.

[Billy Corgan]

We got horrible reviews in the time. Horrible. Yeah, you got too much. You, you, you got kids. But we got horrible reviews. Horrible, horrible. Especially in the uk. The worst reviews we got was in the uk.

[Gavin Rossdale]

Right. That doesn't really make sense to me. But I, I was completely unaware of that. That's a.

[Billy Corgan]

Well, it always looks, it always looks rosy.

[Gavin Rossdale]

Yeah, I mean, I think I've done that. I don't think you quite had your fair accolades of the devastating place you have in music. The musicality you brought to rock is your. There's no one who's done it like, oh, gosh, I do think that that's. And, and it's funny because my son is so in love with your band that we basically. I hear more Pumpkins than anything else in my life.

[Billy Corgan]

It's my great revenge on you.

[Gavin Rossdale]

No, it's. No, no problem. I, It's. It's devastating. And it occurred to me, it's funny that when you're young, you know, we had that, we had that lovely talk at the MTV Awards. I think it's in Europe where you said to the Science of Things, you said, I'm finally a fan. He said, I'm finally a fan. I listened to your record and I finally found it was the third album, so. And I was like. And then I remember you said to me, we were talking and, you know, it was really fun for me to talk to. You know, I, I sort of respect you. Do you. So much at that point as I do now and again. And I said to you, you said, yeah, you know, I mean, you had your MTV moment. And I was like, I did, I did. God, I remember leaving there thinking, God, I guess I've had my moment with mtv. You get.

[Billy Corgan]

I'm terrible.

[Gavin Rossdale]

I.

[Billy Corgan]

You reminded me of the first time we ever really talked. And I. And I love and respect this about you to this day. We were somewhere at something, you know, God knows where the. We were in the 90s, but. And I saw you and I thought, oh, God, you know, because I'd said dumb about you. And you came up and you said, why are you saying these things about me and my band? You know what I mean? And we had this kind of conversation where I was very honest with you about my impressions. And you said, said okay. And I, I was like, oh, he's a good guy. You know what I mean? And that began a. I don't want to say it's a relationship, but it, but we've had this like, beautiful kind of connection ever since then. It was like the first time I saw. He's a real person.

[Gavin Rossdale]

Right?

[Billy Corgan]

You know, not a construction, not a record company. Fiction.

[Gavin Rossdale]

Right.

[Billy Corgan]

You know, and then because of that, then I started paying attention and then I became a fan and. And now, because I, I know I was going to talk to you, I went back and listened to everything again and so much of the stuff holds well.

[Gavin Rossdale]

Thank you.

[Billy Corgan]

It's. It's aged really, really well. Well produced, well sung, great lyrics. So you, you. You proved me and ton of people wrong. And I, I mean, I figured out in the 90s that you. That you were part of us because it, you know, it was hard for us to even earn, you know, even one quick thing. Because you worked with Steve Albini when Steve passed away not too long ago. And it was obviously a sad thing and way too young people dug up all these quotes where Steve was slagging us off like way, way back in the day. And I said it on one thing, but nobody really caught it. I, I talked about how Steve and I got to know each other. And Steve was amazing with me. He would lend us gear. He saved my ass a couple times with like studio stuff. I recorded it electrical. He was a great guy. So it's this idea of like that, you know, red team, blue team. You know what I mean? So I made the same mistake that Steven made with me, you know, Right. He's there, I'm over here, you know, and I'm here, and you're over there. And then eventually I'll figure out, like, no, we're actually all kind of in the same club. And we kind of come at it from different ways. And in a good way. I'm appreciative of Steve because Steve. Steve was. If you're going to hold people up on the. Let's call it the integrity Olympics. Steve was the integrity Olympics. He was that guy. He was the guy who recorded a band for $500. He was the guy who lived it. And he. He wasn't just. A lot of those people are fake as, you know.

[Gavin Rossdale]

Right.

[Billy Corgan]

The indie. Indie people. Right. Steve was the real deal. So if Steve held you up to that mirror, you kind of had to look at it and say, okay, why am I really doing. Doing this? So anyway, the point I was trying to make is, you know, I think it's really cool that it's all kind of worked out. I don't know if you feel that, but I feel that now.

[Gavin Rossdale]

Yeah. I mean, I think that.

[Billy Corgan]

I mean, you guys are doing big tours and.

[Gavin Rossdale]

Yeah, it's making beautiful. Yeah, it's. Yeah. And I think that's. I hope it just comes down to just the. The eyes always been on the right thing, which is just to be as great as possible. And like you're saying the battles with yourself. For me, in our world, the better the. So you write, the better the performance you give, the easier your life is anyway. Do you know what I mean? And. And I. And I. And I just feel deeply at the wheel of my creativity. I don't feel like I'm phoning in any records, any songs. I'm not. You know, I. I feel very, very in control and. And like the best at editing myself I've ever been in.

[Billy Corgan]

Well, what's interesting, because I went back and listened to the. To the. To the catalog recently, and from the first to that third album, there's this kind of figuring out that goes on. It might have been the touring, it might have been confidence, but. But when you hit that third album, you've, You've. You've arrived. Like, you sound like you. It's your world, it's your museum.

[Gavin Rossdale]

Sick.

[Billy Corgan]

And people can't see that about you, I think, including myself. And it took me a hot minute to do it. It's it sells what you did short. And I think. I think I have this whole rant that I've been doing lately, but it's essentially like this. We all grew up in the shadow of the baby boomers. You know, all we ever heard about was the Beatles and Pink Floyd and the Stones, and they're still going, right? We had to kind of fight as a generation to kind of say, this is who we are. We have a different way of doing it. And in a weird kind of way, we could. Because we grew up in a baby boomer system, it pitted us against each other. We had to kind of fight to be on MTV or fight the. You know what I mean? Because the oxygen for rock bands at that time was very, very limited. So I think there's something sort of beautiful about, like, almost like when soldiers reconcile after a war. It's like we all survive that. Those magazines, what they cared about don't matter. But our music has endured. And the fact that we can lovingly respect, like, wow, what you did and what I did and what Steve did and what the Pixies did, we can all step back and say, wow. That we did anything at all is a miracle. And the fact that 30 years later, the people care, particularly young people.

[Gavin Rossdale]

Right?

[Billy Corgan]

That's the most, like, humbling thing. So when you say that your son loves my band, it's like. It's like. It hits me right in the heart because.

[Gavin Rossdale]

Is really, really respectful.

[Billy Corgan]

He's also a tea drinker from our.

[Gavin Rossdale]

From our. So, yeah, he. Oh, my God, that was the best day of his life. And he got that package from Clark. He just thought it was a great.

[Billy Corgan]

My. My wife loves you, by the way. It's just so, you know, she said to say hello to you. So since we were talking about Steve, talk a little bit about working with Steve. Abbey Road. It's the year 1996. You remember 1996?

[Gavin Rossdale]

Yes, I do. Well, I remember going for lunch with him because I. I got one of my. The greatest letters from. From Steve. One of the great letters. Letters of my life. So I went for lunch on a. You know, we're on tour and we're just playing clubs, but we had a day off in Chicago and they said, you know, doing new record. Who do you think working with now? That's when I'd loved, obviously, the Pixies, but also PJ Harvey's record that. That Rid of Me had just had come out.

[Billy Corgan]

And that was Steve.

[Gavin Rossdale]

Yeah. Oh, and that was my favorite record of hers. It still is. It's just. And super bluesy. But really.

[Billy Corgan]

But even the way she to be here. I don't know. I don't know her. I don't know Polly. But somehow she made the blues sound.

[Gavin Rossdale]

Yes, because she's so fresh. But. Yeah, for sure. But. So when I heard that record, I just. It just filled me. I remember listening when we actually were making 16 stone. I remember. And I said to Clive Lango, can you make it more like this? He goes, you gotta write the songs like that. So whatever. When I was going to make a record, I just thought, oh my God, Steve would be amazing. Because we've been on tour now for two, three years. We'd gone. Actually gone from clubs, theaters, we were playing arenas on that one record. And so it was like we basically, you know, maybe there's Dave Jordan I'd spoken to, but I went to have lunch with Steve and I didn't know what it'd be like. I remember I. I met David Y for the first time at Ross Kilda and I said to him, I was so naive and an idiot. I was like, you know, I can't wait to meet Steve. He's, you know, he's so pure. He's so real. And Yao goes, yeah, he's really real. I was like, I knew then I'd like, I'd. I'd like, you know, it was not a good poker player. But then I went there. So I went out to lunch with him and I went for lunch with him and Heather. We went for a Greek restaurant, Greek Town in Chicago. And I just.

[Billy Corgan]

Which, by the way, Pete Katzis, who's works with you and. And I've known Pete for 35 years. His dad used to run around that. That very part of Chicago.

[Gavin Rossdale]

Yeah, they paid him.

[Billy Corgan]

Nick the Greek, I think was his name. Yeah.

[Gavin Rossdale]

Okay. Protection money. So we. We go for lunch and we're just talking whatever. And then. And I got this great letter paraphrasing the letter. And he says, dear Dave, who's our manager at the time. I've been around so many people in the music business that I'm almost not inured to the bull that surround me. Heather, however, has an excellent detector and has found Gavin in fine form. And so therefore, I'm more than happy to extend my services with Bush for their upcoming album. What details to follow. And so it's a great moment. And yeah, we did. First off, we did a little bit in. In the countryside at Trevor Horn Studio. And it was funny seeing Steve in a. In a domestic setting with like the. The birds Chirping. And a wonderful old Tudor home. And it sort of didn't seem right. You know. And Benny had to go back to do something. And then when he came in he had a problem. And we ended up. He said, if we canceled that place and we're going to go to Abbey Roads. We did Studio 2 where the Beatles worked. And he did everything live. Like it was just some. It was so wild. Like.

[Billy Corgan]

You know, the tracking was live.

[Gavin Rossdale]

Yeah. He didn't really believe in much overdubs unless it was compositionally intended. If you said like. You know. I did. I said, Steve, you know, this is. Chorus. It's cool. Can I put a harmony on it? So he's like. Like. Okay. So I go. I come back as you have a track listing. Pointless Harmony. The album. I wanted to call the album Pointless Harmony.

[Billy Corgan]

That's a pretty good title.

[Gavin Rossdale]

I should have called it.

[Billy Corgan]

I should still. That's a. You should. I'd still use that.

[Gavin Rossdale]

It's so good.

[Billy Corgan]

And were you happy with the way it turned out?

[Gavin Rossdale]

Yeah. I think that what happened is that. I wish that I kept on forcing him to say, I know you're not a producer, but Steve, just what should we do? Help us. Because I would. As. I would edit it a bit. You know. I think that we've gotten so into extending songs to play to accommodate playing live. To play. An hour and a half. Yeah. That I just don't know why I thought it was. I was talking about Glenn Branker and Cycles. Repetition. I don't know why it was so necessary to stay so long before I'd start singing or something. I'd be like. It's not that. These two chords are not that good. Things like that. That I just wished. He just moved me along a bit.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah.

[Gavin Rossdale]

But. So that's. That's kind of it. So. But I. What I do get from it is a capturing of a band which I wanted. It was also. It was. It was somewhat suicidal in the face of the criticism with Nirvana and the

[Billy Corgan]

fact I was going to ask that. Kind of like. So. Running into the rotor blades.

[Gavin Rossdale]

Yeah. But it's like. I just like. Like it. Now you'll see the difference between the bands. I was like, this is exactly how you'll find the difference between bands. And I was already on a losing streak on that thing anyway. So it's a kind of a. You. It was like no one was going to. The people that wanted to. To hate me at that point. For those.

[Billy Corgan]

It was a number one albums. Guessed right.

[Gavin Rossdale]

Yeah. Jimmy Ivan was like you know, you took a chance. You were right.

[Billy Corgan]

That's a good Jimmy.

[Gavin Rossdale]

Yeah, he's the only. Is the one of the few compliments. But, yeah, it was. It was just such a seismic moment. If you can imagine, we go back to a conversation about the Pixies, to have been inspired to do music and to find my direction through the Pixies, then to do a record that. With Steve Albini and with the same artwork and the way that I. Listen, look to the. Don't you remember the artwork? Yeah, the Matador girl, the gold cover. It's the. The monkey. I just was like, this is so beautiful. I couldn't believe it.

[Billy Corgan]

It.

[Gavin Rossdale]

And it was. You know, it wasn't Prince, it wasn't Aerosmith, it wasn't what was happening. This was this new thing. And those records were larger than life. And so for me, I just was like, well, those people kind of hate me anyway. What am I going to do? I'm not getting them anyway. But not. What am I going to. How am I going to get him back?

[Billy Corgan]

Why was it three years after that record before you guys put out a third? A lot of touring.

[Gavin Rossdale]

A lot of touring. Two years of touring, and then that was the science of things after that. That was the one that. Because I got Clive Langer involved and I said, I really want to do it. Sounds ridiculous now. I mean, Nine Inch Nails are obviously doing it, but I was like, I want to combine this. I wanted to combine more of London. You know, I've. What happened is that I was taking the criticism and I was trying to sort of work out what would. What would sidestep it, what am I missing? And I was like, are you having. Do you have enough of England? Do you have enough of London in your sack?

[Billy Corgan]

Oh, interesting.

[Gavin Rossdale]

And London was all remixes, dance, kind

[Billy Corgan]

of drum and bass time, drum and

[Gavin Rossdale]

bass, everything like that. So I was like, why don't we incorporate? Just get a bit of London. Maybe they're right, you know, you don't want to. If someone criticizes you most of the time, your instinct is like, yeah. And then one bit they're like, what was that you were saying about that? Was it? So you go. Because you tick it off if things are fair or not. And I was thinking, well, on a place level, they might have a point. So I thought that. So what I did is I said to clap. We're going to have this hybrid thing. We have Johnny Rockstar, who's our amazing programmer, so high. He just would take ages on everything. You're programming But I'd say we combine it. We have these rock songs, but then we've got, like, the chemicals between us, which is like, much more kind of tricked out. And then we're going to have the. The straightforward rock song. Yeah. But we're just going to create this thing where we get people used to, you know, that feeling. And that was where it began. Wanted to experiment, really. And that's what they did. And then the next one was with Dave Sardi that we did make in America to just. Then it was like it. Let's just say it was like making it in America.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah. Like I was saying before, I think that's the record where, like, it all. All kind of came together. Did you feel. Do you feel that at the time?

[Gavin Rossdale]

Yeah, just, you know, just every record I make is an opportunity to learn something different. I mean, even up till now, the songs that I put together. I play a song, I love it. I said, it's so great, and I don't know why I like it so much. And then I realize it's the harmonic minor scale. And I realized that really speaks to me. Yeah. Yeah, really. I just love all those changes. And then I try. And so every song still remains a voyage of discovery. I'm not sort of good enough to be like, oh, I'm just going to do this one again. I'm always like, wow, what goes on if I do that? And what I find really intriguing is because I have my studio and I can engineer myself enough and I can do. Play the keyboards on it and make a lot of soundscapes, dreamscapes that people add to or subtract to from whatever. I'll put things together. That the alchemy of music is still so magical to me. If I was. If I. If I go backwards and I'm asked to recreate that, I'm. I'm at a loss to know why it was so nice that those two together. Well, that counterpoint was all these beautiful accidents that. That you. That happen in music, you know. You know, harmony is. The understanding of harmony is just. You can. It goes on.

[Billy Corgan]

Did you ever. You ever study it?

[Gavin Rossdale]

Yeah, I've been. I've been. I have. I have studied for. For years. Yeah. To play. And I studied piano, which I haven't been. Which is really annoying. And my son told me as well the other day, do you know that Billy also. He's as good at piano, is a guitar.

[Billy Corgan]

That's not true.

[Gavin Rossdale]

And I was like. I said to him, I wish it was true. I said to him, you go and play. Why do I never hear you playing? You've got a beautiful upright here in the studio. So if you're that inspired, do it, you know.

[Billy Corgan]

Not true. I play. I play piano terribly.

[Gavin Rossdale]

I'm not going to tell him that.

[Billy Corgan]

I call it Panda Piano. It's like. Like a power Panda would play like this. There's, of course one more record. But then. Is it. Was it the end of the 2000s, the dissipation of the record business? Was it the band grew stale? What. What. What was the general condition that led to the band sort of stopping there?

[Gavin Rossdale]

You know, I think that one guy had missed the one kid growing up because he'd been working so solidly. And I felt a bit. I wasn't sure where I was going. And that's why I did the Institute record. You know, I thought, this is going to just pet me up. It did. I worked with Paige. I should have done Drop Drop records from then, you know. But I did record Page and I loved all the songs and I thought, why are they not all? And then when I went. Then I. Then I went back to the band and said, we're going to get it back together again. And they said, still not ready.

[Billy Corgan]

Ah. I didn't know.

[Gavin Rossdale]

I was like. And. And I. The really listened to the worst part of my ego and I thought, I'll do a solo record. Nobody wants to solo record from a singer in a rock band.

[Billy Corgan]

I feel I'm at a similar.

[Gavin Rossdale]

Jerry. Jerry Cantrell aside, because we love him and we toured with him and his sort of thing, but I just think that people wouldn't. They want us in our bands. That's for me. They want me in the band.

[Billy Corgan]

And there's something that happens when you go out of your band. They're almost like mad at you.

[Gavin Rossdale]

Yeah, it's so. Not even. Almost everyone was mad at me. And I was like, it's not even my fault. They don't want to do it. I shouldn't. They don't want to hear it.

[Billy Corgan]

They don't give a.

[Gavin Rossdale]

And then the weirdest thing happened to me is that then I got. Was the most collaborative on my Solar record. Then I was told I have to go and work with everyone. So I worked with Dave Stewart, I worked with Linda Perry, I go and work with songwriters. I've never been in a room and jamming with someone because imagine I told you that every song I'd written on my own, I take in. They amend and change and do stuff like that. I work with adults so it's like it's a democracy, but, you know, the better, the better. Better the presentation of the song, the less they're going to change, you know, unless they feel intrigued or desire to. So, you know, I think.

[Billy Corgan]

We don't do gossip here, but you did marry a famous person. And what struck me about it is you've had these periods in your life. I don't even know if I can be succinct about it, but it's like maybe the simple way to be put it is. Is. Is you finding yourself or you put yourself in this bigger circumstance and somehow you got to kind of find yourself. Yourself. Throwing yourself into the celebrity MA of la, particularly as a celebrity couple. How do you feel about all that? Because I don't know. You know what I mean?

[Gavin Rossdale]

Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

I mean, I know what people do to kind of smile and work with it because it's an energy and like a. Like a bullfighter, you gotta kind of. You know, there's an advantageous and a disadvantageous and. And we all are aware what the disadvantageous part of it is. But it struck me as interesting that suddenly now you're in the heat of this other thing and it's not musical per se, it's. It's celebrity driven.

[Gavin Rossdale]

Yeah. It's so simple. I just really, you know, when I met her, it was just magic. It was just instant and so.

[Billy Corgan]

Which. She's a pretty magical person.

[Gavin Rossdale]

Yes, she is. And so that's all that I met. That's all that, you know, I was just. Just. She changed me so much. You know, she sort of softened me in so many ways. You know, she comes from such a wholesome life that there was some taming qualities to it that was. Was incredibly special. So I. I prioritized that feeling over any interpretation of it. I was again, I was moving so fast at that point. Point. So many things were going on, you know, from all angles that I don't. Wisdom wasn't. Wasn't one of them. Reflection wasn't. Wasn't one of my qualities at the time. I just was extremely. Just thought she was amazing and that was all that mattered. And everything else was a consequence of that, you know, it wasn't.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah, I get that.

[Gavin Rossdale]

Yeah, that was it.

[Billy Corgan]

Why the dabbling into acting was like a curiosity or was it an opportunity because you're kind of in it?

[Gavin Rossdale]

I think it was just the desire to do something creative that I didn't have to think of first, you know,

[Billy Corgan]

like, show me where to stand and I'll. Well, I sense I don't mean in a. Demeanor.

[Gavin Rossdale]

No, no, no, no, no. I just mean that, you know, I think we're the same when we go to work. You know, you start with a blank screen or a blank bit of paper. And like, I was talking.

[Billy Corgan]

That anxiety is something I think most people don't understand. Just.

[Gavin Rossdale]

It's. It's just right there. It says it's. It's. It's just a blank bit of space, silent screen, looking at you saying, make me good. So I think there was something about. Because I love words so much that I think that. That it was inspiring to. And I never did so much of it that it took away, because whenever I did a movie, all the crew would be like, you know, when's the next record? Mad at me. You talk about doing a solo record. Try doing a movie. People are like, what the fuck you doing? Yeah, we don't care about being an actor. But I like that process. And I. And I do. It was inspiring. It did always make me run back to doing music because I was like, I know, I know. And that's my main thing. But I thought that Tom Waits, who's a incredible artist, one of my favorite artists of all time, the way that he just showed up in movies, that would be amazing. You'd be like, why is he doing it? Yeah, yeah. I just thought that was a. A, an interesting thing to do. And it was just creative. And I didn't. Yeah, and. And it didn't. I was poised. At one point after Constantine, it was like I did have a massive agent and I was poised for a whole different life. That the universe said no.

[Billy Corgan]

You know, was it signs or was it something you just didn't. Weren't feeling?

[Gavin Rossdale]

Oh, stuff I didn't get hired for. I just. It just. It just didn't work out for me

[Billy Corgan]

in a way that I thought the stars didn't align.

[Gavin Rossdale]

Stars did not align. I turned down. We turned down the transporter film we got offered right after Luke Besson. And that would have. Until then, that's. Something better will come along. And nothing did. I see nothing better came along. And then I did that classic one. I had this manager who wasn't really helping me ask the said big agent, hey, do you think Gavin should still be with you? Or, you know, like to sort of rattle his cage a bit now? He should have said, said, no way. I'm going to step it up. He's like, maybe a small agent. So that was the end of that. So I was like, wow, those are the height of you know, and I was like, okay, it's. But I don't feel regret.

[Billy Corgan]

It's brutal up there.

[Gavin Rossdale]

Yeah. But I don't feel any regret about it. I mean, I still do some auditioning. I still fail some things. And there's some things I get. You know, I was in Sophia Copper's movie. I was in this movie just before COVID So they come along. I like them. You know, it's a fun reason.

[Billy Corgan]

I, the reason I ask is you, is in the last few years, maybe, maybe since the pandemic ended, you seem to found like a renewed musical kind of wind or energy or it's like there's, it's not just the fans rallying up around you in a new generation that wants to hear your music. You seem to be kind of entering into a place of commitment.

[Gavin Rossdale]

Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

And I know you decently well. Well, not great, but I know you decently well. And even when I see clips of you, like your whole, your, your, your energy on stage is somebody who's convicted and you're present. Yeah, that's something. I think maybe we, as performers, you can kind of read like, right. Does he really want to be there?

[Gavin Rossdale]

Right, right. No, I really want to be there.

[Billy Corgan]

I can feel that. And I'm happy. And by the way, I'm happy for you because you deserve that.

[Gavin Rossdale]

Thank you. I, I, I think that it's just an exciting time.

[Billy Corgan]

I, it's such a cool time.

[Gavin Rossdale]

Yeah. Isn't it? Exciting time? I, I have the freedom to make records. I, People still want to come. I spoke to my friend the other day, and he. I was feeling a bit blue because I have, I was, I have deep sort of conflicted emotions when I'm leaving, about to leave for a long time, because I feel very guilty. I know that when I'm out there and I'm doing it, it makes sense. But before, when I'm, and I just feel like I'm betraying every single entity, person, my kids, my dog, you know, they're all like counting on me being there. And it's like, by the way, I won't be here. So I, I have this quite, it's, it's quite hard for me. So I was talking to my friend the other day, my oldest buddy from England. I was like, yeah, you know, it feels, he goes, oh, what you mean? It feels really hard to travel around the world for five months and people wanted to see the songs. Wanting to play live. The songs you wrote, they must be awful. What a terrible feeling. How do you come Hope And I was like, all right, I know, but you know what I mean? I just feel a bit blue. But you do you feel the same way? I mean, you have young children, so it must be.

[Billy Corgan]

I don't feel that way, no. One thing that we've done, my wife and I, is we made the decision when, when my son was a baby that we would just include them as. As much as possible. So I'll take my kids on the road, just me and them, no nanny. So when the band's rehearsing, they're on stage with like the gun range headphones on. On.

[Gavin Rossdale]

Right. But how the. Okay, but when they go to school, that's a bit harder.

[Billy Corgan]

No, they're homeschooled.

[Gavin Rossdale]

Oh, yeah. So I would do that. So they go with you ever?

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah, I mean, not all the time, but I'm saying is we live a life where it's totally modular.

[Gavin Rossdale]

Yeah. Yes.

[Billy Corgan]

So if I'm going on a six week run, my kids might be out for two or three of the weeks and then they, by the time they're done with three weeks of tour, they're like, I want to go home and see my kids cat. They're happy to leave me. Like, you enjoy your tour, dad. I'm going home because I want to see my cat.

[Gavin Rossdale]

That's a great.

[Billy Corgan]

So it's beautiful because it sort of balances out.

[Gavin Rossdale]

Yeah, very lucky. Chloe, obviously, is a perfect foil for that. If you, you know, if I was with, you know, someone who has a job that can't leave or a job that takes places, then you get that, that disconnect.

[Billy Corgan]

No, it's, it's, it's difficult because it's. Ultimately, there's a form of selfishness in it. Do you know what I'm saying? All artists are selfish. It's just the nature of the beast. I must go somewhere and be with my own thoughts. And by the way, I must share them. And not only must I share them, I need you to buy them. It's a bit there, there is a selfishness there, but I think once the model's been proven, and in your case, you know, over 30 years, it doesn't matter what the wellspring of the thing is anymore. It exists for a reason. There's ultimately a healing or a larger message at play. And the thing I try to tell my children is we're involved in something that's bigger than our family. And we're a show business family. And so what we do is we entertain and we put smiles on people's faces. So you're part of that process. So when we're here, we're doing this, and when we're out, we're doing that. And that's just the way it goes. It's not to say they don't have agency in the decision making process because when they say to me, I want to go home, I'm like, okay, I'll put you on a plane tomorrow. If you want to go home, you don't have to. You don't have to stay out here with dad on tour in Helsinki. You know what I mean? It's kind of up to you.

[Gavin Rossdale]

Right?

[Billy Corgan]

And so we've kind of found this interesting balance. But I realize it would. It's not for everybody. It would. It's. It's a difficult because there are times where, like, my kids don't get of where the hell we are. They're tired and yeah. You know, they just want to watch tv. And I'm like, you know, we got to go to the gig, you know, and they're like, do we have to. Can, can you, can you skip the gig today, Dad? I thought to ask you this one thing because it's very rare that. People have a common experience that most people wouldn't understand. If you talk about this or I talk about this, it sounds a bit, you know, having a go. But I like the idea of having. In this context, when you have success and you have a catalog and then bands come to see you play. What's your. What's your. Because you put out four albums since the band reformed in 2010. Is that right? So what's your, what's your vibe on, like, the expectation of the audience, the hits versus new material. Like, how do you, how do you sit on all the.

[Gavin Rossdale]

Now I, I think of it from my own perspective. When I go and see a band that I love, there are certain songs that I do want them to play and things I don't want to let me down on. But as long as they still put their, you know, foot to the floor when they write new songs, then they should play whatever they want. I don't think they're obscure. Like I'm. I, I often think of sets in tempos.

[Billy Corgan]

Okay.

[Gavin Rossdale]

You know, and just what you might want. And if, you know, I, I'll be fully aware. If I've had like, you know, two or three similar tempos, then I know I'm going have to pick it up. Yeah. Yeah. So I'm always just trying to avoid that lull three quarters of the way through the show.

[Billy Corgan]

I love the lull.

[Gavin Rossdale]

Someone, someone offers to go buy the drinks. I mean because the lull you play the beautiful song, you do something. But I just always thinking that, that people are spoiled and they want to be. They just want to be blown away by you. This is ready. It's like it's of a best man speech. Like people come to your show especially with us when they have the history of the bands. They want to have a great time. So you've really got to get up to it up. So in that case I'm laughing because

[Billy Corgan]

I so enjoy this process.

[Gavin Rossdale]

You I, I, I make sure on a skeletal level we never veer too far away, too long away from. From footholds. They would know.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah.

[Gavin Rossdale]

They keep them in there. You can't satisfy everyone. Especially when you do an hour set or like a Lollapalooza. We did an hour. So there hour and a half. I can give a nice spread of.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah.

[Gavin Rossdale]

Don't let you down. This is new. And I and but nothing. You know, in those spots where you maybe extract something they might know. We've got to make sure it's up. It's driving. Definitely going to be detuned. Yeah. And it's that people. Makes sense. Right. So that's, that's what, that's how I do it. And I try and change it up. You know every. What I do is I have slots. So like the skeleton set. And then there'll be a space where that could be one of five songs can go in there. I always wanted to do that thing of where you do the completely different sets. But we just tried that and just. It didn't, it was too confusing.

[Billy Corgan]

We, we played with you, you somewhere like in the Far Far east or something. I don't remember. It was somewhere. And I watched about half your show and then I had went back to warm up. But I could still hear you playing. And you put so much pressure on the set that I was playing. Because you played such a great set. Because it had an up tempo feel. Maybe. Does it make sense? Not that it was always up tempo but it had up. It was, the energy was very up for your show.

[Gavin Rossdale]

Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

And I thought oh mother, I gotta go out.

[Gavin Rossdale]

But we should. I, I look, I look forward to the day when we tour together again. When we played in Portugal. I remember Portugal's that warm night. And I just thought that we just, we fit really well together. I was like I love.

[Billy Corgan]

Anytime love to tour with you. Couple last questions. I feel like the wheel is finally turning the right way with you.

[Gavin Rossdale]

You.

[Billy Corgan]

And I'm happy about that because I really think, you know, our ranks are thin. We lost a lot of great people along the way. And I like it when all of us collectively when out we're all. Not that we're all friends, but I like it when we're all strong. I think we actually all win more if we're all strong.

[Gavin Rossdale]

I agree.

[Billy Corgan]

So what do you want? The people. People because you've, because you've survived, you know, whatever the bull was. And the 90s was its own bull. And then there's the downturn in the music business and there's the. The classic, you know, greatest hits kind of mentality of. Of 2000 audiences and stuff like that. Where do you think the band's landing now? And I don't mean in the present tense. I mean if people are looking, a 20 year old kid is looking and they don't care about any of the politics, anything and they look like, okay, this band was there, this band was there. What do you want them to understand about your band Hand?

[Gavin Rossdale]

Well, I appreciate everything you're saying because it's, it's, it's. It's very, it's concisely putting a sort of a. An elephant to bed kind of thing. Yeah, it's very, very welcome. We appreciate that. I think it's just to do with. I believe in rock music. You know. I think that it, it really, it's. It's.

[Billy Corgan]

You like, you like your guitar.

[Gavin Rossdale]

I love guitar and I love the emphasis and I like the way that the combination of a lyric, a sentiment and what a guitar can do, either softly, gently, you know, mayonnaise, you know, or what a guitar can do aggressively. Either way, I find it really expressive. Yeah. And so for me, anyone who's doing rock records, I'm so in a war of. And proud of because I think that exactly to what you're saying, the funniest part is that it was a ruse all along. They made us. It was like the. We just, we were just like fodder for the. The. For the Roman Empire and the people. Because people want. I would. Would rather have five great records than one great record. So there is no competition. The competition has always been within the band, within ourselves to be the best we can be. And then everyone rise up and you know. Extraordinary band with you, extraordinary sound. Garden Nirvana. It's just all these incredible Pixies, Fugazi, Jesus Lizard, all these incredible bands and isn't it beautiful that they. They coexist. The Death Tones have Also been, you know, really, obviously one of the greatest bands, but really kind of endured. And just like Chino, just because he's such a great singer. I mean, he's such a great band. They deserve it. That's what.

[Billy Corgan]

But it's gained. It's gained gravity over time, which is really cool.

[Gavin Rossdale]

Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

Cuz sometimes only time helps you understand that.

[Gavin Rossdale]

Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

Basically what the deftone sounds do and what they represent has gained energy and almost like. I don't know, it just feels like it's got more weight to it.

[Gavin Rossdale]

Yeah. Yeah. For sure.

[Billy Corgan]

Or like with what Jerry does. Alison, she's always had that gravity.

[Gavin Rossdale]

But I think also, you know what's interesting is that. I mean, I try to allude to this on this record. I. I beat Lonely and you have this.

[Billy Corgan]

These interviews aren't particularly time sensitive. We call them evergreen. But. But I know you have a new record.

[Gavin Rossdale]

Well, I have a new record. What I mean is that. Is that I think that it's. It's a really important discussion around mental health. People's mental well being. The truth about the melancholy of people, the disconnect of people, which in fairness we've been singing about forever. That's what we've been doing.

[Billy Corgan]

Well, that's why we have a thing with Chloe called Sorrow is the family business. That's what we do.

[Gavin Rossdale]

But. But. But you can now see it in. In the. In the. In the world, in. In the culture that people are talking to it. We just use guitars with that. So I just like it when. When great bands are making great records. You know, it was f. I'm. I'm happy to see all these bands doing well. And I do like these younger bands coming up. I think that the extraordinary kind of post metal sound, the sort of bad omen sound, the. The poppy. Just the records they make. It's just like the next level of like. It's.

[Billy Corgan]

It's good. Good. It's healthy.

[Gavin Rossdale]

Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

Okay. Last thing. Gavin the Chef take me into that.

[Gavin Rossdale]

I wanted to find a way to stay high home. And I also wanted to find a way to get my voice back. I felt that I had been in this world for so long, the show business as such, you know, and had only been. This was before, you know, before obviously podcast, things like that. People now get a sense of what the people are like.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah.

[Gavin Rossdale]

An extended way before then we were always sort of exactly. Sort of at the mercy of the editor of how they. How we, you know, the cadence of how we speak, what we prioritize. Interesting things. And I stake now when we go on TV shows, we, you know, we're not the actors. So we'd. No one asks us anything about how we're doing or what our day was like. We just played the song and off.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah.

[Gavin Rossdale]

And so I thought I've always had this ability weirdly to put food together. I don't know, it's just being able to put food together. People say to me for years, you should do a tv, a cooking show. I'll be like doing what exactly? I mean, so what I can, I can grill a steak. Big whoopee do.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah.

[Gavin Rossdale]

And then I just came across this, this thing of trying to create a way of staying home, not leaving to work so I could be around my boys more. And I thought do this interview show. And I thought it'd be so easy. And that was. It was like a seven year process of making the.

[Billy Corgan]

Oh okay.

[Gavin Rossdale]

I didn't think the pilots and then showing it to everyone like this is amazing. Except for anyone who was a combining editor. No one who made the reality TV or non unscripted is what we're called. Nobody knew would sign me know what to do with this. It was just like my music. I was like, there's a world of no. But then you say to yourself, is it. Is it a world of no or is it just slowly working our way towards yes from someone? Like it was in music I just needed one person.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah.

[Gavin Rossdale]

And in this I got one person. And that's seems to be the my face and gives me effectively my truth. Because that's how it is. That's what life is like. There's no copyrights, even though people would assume there are.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah. All right. Thank you, brother.

[Gavin Rossdale]

Thank you.