John 5 | The Magnificent Others with Billy Corgan

Summary

The Magnificent Others with Billy Corgan

Episode: John 5 | The Magnificent Others with Billy Corgan
Release Date: October 8, 2025

---

Main Theme

In this episode, Billy Corgan sits down with virtuoso guitarist John 5 to discuss his musical journey, obsession with collecting, surviving and thriving as a session musician, and his role in some of rock’s most iconic bands. The conversation ranges from their shared love of KISS and guitar heroes to the emotional toll of loss and trauma, with revealing stories about David Lee Roth, Marilyn Manson, Rob Zombie, and joining Mötley Crüe.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Music, Greatness, and Collecting (00:00–05:30)

• John 5 emphasizes that, above all, it's always about the music:
  "It really is all about the music. And you can't. I really don't think you can deny greatness." (00:00)
• Billy notes John's uniqueness:
  "You are uniquely voiced for that circus. You've always struck me as some sort of, like, island in the middle of the ocean that doesn't need to sort of be thrown around like the rest of us." (00:09)
• John details his vast KISS memorabilia collection (over 5,000 items), the joy of cataloguing, and running private guided tours.
• Both share their collector’s mentality, with Billy discussing his love for postwar Japanese porcelain and the deep nerdiness among collectors.
• Insight into why collecting resonates: nostalgia, history, and personal fulfillment.

2. The Value of Musical Objects & Connection to the Past (05:27–09:43)

• John describes his most prized KISS possessions: Gene Simmons’ Destroyer boots (“barely hanging on... smell... mold... blood”) and the TV-era stage costume.
• Discussion of how band gear drifts into collectors' hands and stories behind unique items.
• Emotional weight of old friendships—John reveals the loss of two close collecting companions to cancer, and the impact it had on his relationship with collecting.

  "I was devastated. I was so devastated that I was. I couldn't even look at the stuff, you know..." (08:21)

3. KISS’s Musical Legacy and Public Perception (09:43–14:25)

• Both marvel at KISS’s enduring appeal to musicians and fans alike, noting recurrent themes of brilliance, showmanship, and criticism.
• Classic media moments recalled—Gene Simmons’ early controversial interviews (Mike Douglas, not Donahue) and their long-term effect on Kiss's image.
• The band’s ability to command awe despite media caricature and public skepticism.

4. Early Musical Influences & Guitar Heroes (14:25–20:14)

• John 5’s guitar path started after seeing musicians on 'Hee Haw'—specifically Jimmy Henley and Don Rich—with a telly-shaped void that never left him.
• Both reminisce about how limited TV exposure to music in the 1970s/80s made every moment precious.

  "Music was so scarce on television in America in the 70s... Like, we took it wherever we could get it." — Billy (16:18)

• John’s attachment to country players, Partridge Family, The Monkees, and how this era shaped his style.

5. Hardship, Therapy, and Instrumental Focus (20:14–22:44)

• John reveals multiple family losses; therapy led to the advice: immerse the mind in focused, productive activity.

  "He said, do something to occupy your brain. To really occupy your brain. And that's why I was started with the instrumental records." (21:20)

• His instrumental solo albums became a means of channeling grief and energy constructively.

6. Finding “Home” in Multiple Gigs (22:44–25:00)

• Billy likens John’s career movement to Jeff Beck—a wandering gunslinger—rather than a “proto shredder.”
• John discusses enjoying the best of both worlds: playing for big-name bands (Manson, Zombie, Mötley Crüe) and going all-out for instrumental records.

7. From Detroit to LA—Chasing the Dream (25:00–29:02)

• John describes his privileged but sheltered upbringing in Grosse Pointe, Michigan, opportunity knocking from Warner Bros. as a teenager, and his highway west.
• Insane stories from his arrival in LA: robbed first night, early gigs, sleeping on floors, surviving in stark contrast to his roots.

8. LA Scene and Breakthroughs (29:02–34:12)

• Tales from the trenches—playing in Sun King with Rudy Sarzo; memories of Gazzari’s, Hollywood Billiards, and getting “discovered.”
• Sarzo emerges as a guardian angel, connecting John with network, gigs, and his first session experiences.
• Bob Marlette’s influence, and how half-priced, speedy session work built John’s reputation.

9. Session Musicianship, and the Joy of “Giggerdom” (34:12–41:49)

• John’s session work spans everything from TV shows (Baywatch, Flipper) to Salt N Pepa.
• He underlines his original dream: to become a behind-the-scenes “session guy” rather than a name frontman—sparked by watching a ’70s TV show, “Session Man.”
• Billy and John bond over the value of musical support roles and the odd journey of career musicians.

10. Trauma, Loss, and Physical Manifestations (44:10–47:10)

• John speaks candidly about how family tragedies led to severe stress-caused medical issues (non-bacterial prostatitis), and he hides physical suffering behind routine and practice.

  "Pelvic floor squeezes your prostate so hard... and it's just from stress. You can't piss, you can't sit, you can't do anything. And this is a stress related medical condition." (45:12–45:40)

11. The Process, Repetition & Safe Places (47:10–48:01)

• The ritualization of playing—regardless of band or setlist—is John’s method for grounding himself, “keeping my mind intact.”

12. Almost David Lee Roth’s Guitarist—Missing the Stage for Manson (48:01–58:59)

• The intricate, operator style of John’s partnership with Diamond Dave:
  • Sending songs through Bob Marlette
  • Recording “DLR Band” album in two takes per song as per Roth’s demand
  • Nearly touring with Roth, but switching to Marilyn Manson at the last moment on Gene Simmons’ advice:

    "I remember calling Gene ... should I join Manson or stay with Roth? And he goes, join Manson." (58:00)

  • Roth’s supportiveness and later friendship.

13. Manson Years: Alienation, Camaraderie, and Ouster (63:26–71:19)

• John's initial experience: only Manson, Ginger were kind; other bandmates were mean even before he joined.

  "I'm not gonna say hi to you. You're only gonna be in the band for six months." — Pogo, as recalled by John (65:50)

• Friction over creativity, technical savviness (proving he hadn’t made mistakes by playing back tapes) leading to tension and eventual sacking.
• Manson eventually apologizing for the way it ended—something that stuck with John.

14. Being an “Island in the Ocean”: Confidence, Not Arrogance (43:27–44:50)

• Billy:

  "...you've always struck me as some sort of like island in the middle of the ocean that doesn't need to sort of be thrown around like the rest of us, you know, and it's. I think it comes across in the way you play. Even there's a confidence, but it's not an arrogance confidence." (43:27)

• John credits upbringing and therapy as sources of stability:

  "I'm not trying to prove to anybody I'm doing this and learning, still learning every day, like just to just keep my mind in. In intact, you know..." (44:09)

15. Rob Zombie, Mötley Crüe, and Living the Dream (43:43–84:15)

• 17 years with Zombie—daily ritual and pride in musicianship.
• Mötley Crüe gig: John’s long-time friendship with Nikki Sixx and Tommy Lee led to a seamless transition.

  "I was so close with Nikki... and I, you know, knew Mick really well... it's just like playing with your, your buddies you know..." (79:58)

• No auditions; John was simply given the gig because he was trusted, loved, and knew every note.

  "When they gave me the set list and they were like, all right, learn these. I'm like, I know all these... I could go play a show." (81:15)

• His philosophy: play every classic lick/note as it was on the record; never “mess” with the arrangements.

16. Guitar Preferences—The Telecaster and Its Meaning (84:21–86:49)

• Despite genre or context, John plays a Telecaster—thanks to childhood inspiration from Don Rich:

  "It's like, you know when you're coming into your own and you're like a certain kind of woman? You like either like boobs or a butt or something like that. And that's how I was with the telly." (84:42)

• Discussion with Billy about instrument “soul mates” and the magic of signature guitars in iconic songs.

17. Solo Music, Instrumentals, and Next Challenges (88:05–89:00)

• John insists on keeping solo music instrumental as a creative outlet apart from his “singers” in major bands.
• Teasing an ambitious upcoming project: 50 shows in 50 states in 50 days.

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On collecting KISS memorabilia:

  "There's 2,500 items, but if we're counting records and cassettes and eight tracks and reel to reels, then we're well over 5,000." — John 5 (01:24)

• On the therapeutic power of playing:

  "If not, I'd probably, you know, be throwing feces at traffic or something, you know, so." — John 5 (21:37)

• On trauma’s impact:

  "I got this thing called prostatitis... It's when your pelvic floor squeezes your prostate so hard... and it's just from stress." — John 5 (45:11–45:31)

• On being a session musician:

  "I never dreamt like that. I never thought. Never... I had one of being a session musician, really making records." — John 5 (40:08)

• On joining Mötley Crüe:

  "It's just like playing with your, your buddies, you know, it's. It's very, it's very strange how it all came." — John 5 (80:58) "I don't change a note... I will play exactly how it's recorded, not how it was played live." (81:37)

• On the original Van Halen:

  "When those four guys are together, it was so magical. Eddie was such a brilliant, brilliant genius." — John 5 (61:18)

---

Timestamps for Important Segments

• KISS collection madness: 00:44–05:50
• Coping with tragedy, therapy, starting instrumentals: 20:14–22:44
• First years in LA, survival stories: 25:00–29:02
• Breakthrough with Rudy Sarzo & session career: 29:24–35:34
• David Lee Roth stories: 48:01–58:59
• Manson—joining, band drama, and eventual apology: 63:35–71:19
• Mötley Crüe—friendship, transition, philosophy: 77:42–84:19
• Telecaster talk: 84:21–86:49
• Solo project announcement: 88:05–89:00

---

Tone and Language

The tone throughout is informal, warm, unfiltered, humorous, and heartfelt. Both Billy and John share candidly, gravitating naturally between deep musical geekery and personal emotion, with an affectionate, mutual respect and a love of the craft—and especially the underlying camaraderie among musicians.

---

Concluding Note

This episode offers an intimate portrait of John 5—not just shredding guitar hero, but a thoughtful collector, a survivor of pain, and a musician who sees purpose and magic in music’s rituals, wherever he lands. For anyone interested in the spirit behind the showbiz myth, it’s an honest, revealing journey through the gears and guts of a real musical life.

Transcript

[John 5]

It's all about the music. It really is all about the music. And you can't. I really don't think you can deny greatness.

[Billy Corgan]

This is my quote for you. You are uniquely voiced for that circus.

[John 5]

It's great.

[Billy Corgan]

You've always struck me as some sort of, like, island in the middle of the ocean that doesn't need to sort of be thrown around like the rest of us.

[John 5]

The other guys were so mean to me, like. And I just wanted nothing for them to succeed.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah. Everything's just swimming along. MLE Crew.

[John 5]

Unbelievable. Unbelievable, right? It's so weird to even say.

[Billy Corgan]

Well, thank you very much. It's nice to see you again. You know, you've done so many things musically, but let's talk about kiss. Yeah, let's talk about what we really care about. So someone from your world sent me a clip of you on the news. And I just had to laugh because, you know, it's like, here we are at the Kiss. And then it's like on, you know, local TV nights in Satan's service Museum. And I was like, oh, my God, this is so, so meta. America didn't. No one realized it was, you know, had something to do with Satan. I don't know. In the local news.

[John 5]

Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

So am I. 2500 items is your. Is your.

[John 5]

There's 2,500 items, but if we're counting records and cassettes and eight tracks and reel to reels, then we're well over 5,000.

[Billy Corgan]

Wow. So.

[John 5]

Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

Have you thought about. No, there's a. Satan's plane is flying. Have you thought about. I mean, I don't know your wife, but I mean, at some point does she go, should we put this, like, institutionalizing it, making it like an official thing?

[John 5]

Yes, she. She gives me that sigh of disappointment.

[Billy Corgan]

You know, as only a wife can. So she sees you bidding on something. Yeah, yeah. An auction. Right.

[John 5]

Sweating.

[Billy Corgan]

Yes. You know, I have the same problem. So I. People watch my show, get mad when I interject myself in other people's things. But, I mean, I think we're similar, that we collect a lot of stuff.

[John 5]

Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

So when I was reading about you collecting, I was like, that makes total sense to me.

[John 5]

And I can watch things on people collecting anything, like thimbles or.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah, I just, I think collecting so fascinating. And I always. Because I collect weird stuff. But like, like, sometimes people say, what do you collect? So I like to collect post war Japanese porcelain figures. They call them post war Japan.

[John 5]

Interesting.

[Billy Corgan]

The us. The us in order to get the Japanese economy going again. Started buying a lot of porcelain from Japan, so. So they're literally stamped Post War Japan. Wow. And they. And they look like kind of early anime. It'll be like an American cowboy, but it looks like anime Speed Racer Y vibe, but, like, from the 50s. Yeah. So. But, you know, as you know, when you go down the rabbit hole of a collecting world, then there's. Now you're in Kiss world.

[John 5]

Yes.

[Billy Corgan]

Now you're in porcelain. Post war, you know, it's like, it gets really nerdy in there and like. Like, oh, you don't want that. That's. That's, you know, that. That came out later. That's the reissue. This is the real thing. Right, Right. So what, did you start collecting pretty early on?

[John 5]

Yeah, I started collecting, and I believe that in my eyes. It just makes me feel good from my childhood because you and I grew up and Kiss was all over the place. And I would collect back then. I would remember going to Toys R Us and thumbing through the dolls and. Or the action figures, I should say.

[Billy Corgan]

Not dolls, but I could see Jane action.

[John 5]

Yeah. Yeah. So I. I loved it. And I still have been collecting through all this time. But what I'm doing is I'm really trying to document and make a catalog of everything. I mean, I like.

[Billy Corgan]

Like, almost like a master catalog.

[John 5]

Yes.

[Billy Corgan]

They probably don't have something like that, right?

[John 5]

Oh, no, no, no. I mean, I'm talking from every country of, like, oh, my goodness, South America and Korea and everything. There's 27 different versions of Dynasty from Korea. And it's still in that era of. Because I cut off at the coin years. Of 83. Of 83. But I really do Trying to do a. Just for rock and roll history.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah, yeah. Cause Gene sat in that very chair, and he was like, you know, we had two factories in the valley, you know, full time, 24 hours a day. But I mean, it's the Beatles. Like, they just threw their name on everything. But that's what makes it cool, you know?

[John 5]

Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

So for those who don't know what we're talking about. Home museum. Right. Privately guided tours by you.

[John 5]

Yes.

[Billy Corgan]

You're taking, like, six people at a time. Does that sound accurate?

[John 5]

Yeah, because I want to spend a couple hours with each person and talk to them, play pinball with them, you know, really? And. And aficionados come in there and they're like, oh, do you have the tour book that was only released for these two shows? And, you know, here it is.

[Billy Corgan]

Oh, wow.

[John 5]

Things like that. So people really enjoy it. I Mean people. It brought tears to their eyes just to touch the costumes from back in the day.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah, I'm big on objects, I guess that's. I have some original wrestling stuff. You know, I have like, the original female belt of the world. You know what I mean? And when you just hold that piece of history and you think that the buildings that this belt was in. So when you're holding something like something of jeans from 1974, it's like it's living history. So what's your. You must have a prized possession or prized possessions.

[John 5]

I believe I have two. I have the only remaining destroyer boots. So he used those. Those dragon boots. And they're just. They're barely hanging on and they smell and there's mold and there's blood and everything. So those. And then Gene's outfit from. I don't know if you saw the clip on Donahue when he was on there very early on. It was like their first TV appearance.

[Billy Corgan]

I think I was watching it live in Chicago.

[John 5]

Yeah, it's. So he's got that outfit on. He's worn it for hundreds of shows. So I have that as well. He told me he would just ride on it with the subway, like, because he was. You know, they had no money and. Interesting.

[Billy Corgan]

This is a little bit of a side question, but I always wonder with. With the band like Kiss, how much stuff ends up floating out into the market. Especially when it was band members. Personal stuff. Would. You must know some of the allegorical history. Would they just give stuff to like a roadie or. Like, they didn't think anything of it or.

[John 5]

Such a great question. Because on the COVID of Halden Hill and Paul wore this belt in at tons of concerts. And on the COVID of Holler in Hell, he's got this belt. And someone reached out to me and said, oh, I have his belt. And he sent me a letter of how he got it. And Paul just traded it to him for a ring for some jewelry. Cause in 1975 in Port Huron. Because, you know, to Paul, it was probably just some old costume piece. You and I have both known about that. What do we do with it? And the guy had it for decades and then just got it to me. But I think everybody ends up selling eventually. We all. Once. We perish.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah. But I guess what I'm saying is it always strikes me it's one thing if it comes from the. The artist. Sure. Like, you got stuff that I. You got stuff that only you would have. I got stuff only I would have. Of course. Right. You Know, like, you go on tour with Molly Crue. It's like you got one of so many tour books. Some. Something like that, and you throw in the closet. You know, it's. It's like, there it is.

[John 5]

Right?

[Billy Corgan]

But. But when it. When it seems to kind of like when you say these boots, like, at one point did. Jean turned to a cousin and go, you can have the boots. And, you know, that's. That stuff always strikes me as certain.

[John 5]

It is.

[Billy Corgan]

It's interesting novel. I saw one reference this. So please excuse me if I don't have it. Right. But did at some point, you had a Kiss collection. You sold it to somebody or.

[John 5]

That's correct. So what happened was. And I'm just gonna be completely honest, I was collecting and had my buddy who I would collect with, this wonderful, wonderful guy. His name's Reuben. And, you know, he was just such a incredible person. Didn't have a lot of friends, but, you know, we were like, partners, and we would collect together and we'd have so much fun. And he was young, got sick, got cancer and died. And I was devastated. I was so devastated that I was. I couldn't even look at the stuff, you know, so then. This is so strange, Billy. This is so strange. Then a few years later, I picked it back up and got back into it, and I got my new partner that I would, you know, collect with. And we had. We had such a good time. We do all this thing. And he was just diagnosed with stage four cancer.

[Billy Corgan]

Oh, my goodness.

[John 5]

And he's young. I'm like, what is going on? You know, so he's fighting. I talk to him twice a day, every day. So it's just. It's just, you know, it's very strange.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah. When Gene was here, Gene Simmons, of course, I argued with him that I thought Kiss was better than he thought. And I thought it was a novel approach to take because I've seen him be kind of almost pseudo dismissive at times of Kiss. His music. Sure. And I thought, I bet no one's ever gone at him like this. And I actually kind of got him back on his heels a little bit, which is hard to do, as, you know, Gene's a very tough character, very bright, and he's heard it all and he's seen it all. So, of course, let's try to even find an angle in to talk about stuff. But I was curious about your. Because as a fan, especially as a great musician, what's your take on their sort of musical legacy? You know, like, let's Call it the musicians take for musicians of Kiss.

[John 5]

Absolutely. I don't think we'd be talking about Kiss today if it wasn't for the music. And it's not just the music. From the debut record to Creatures of the Night, all those great records. They had so many hits in the 80s.

[Billy Corgan]

It's crazy.

[John 5]

Tons of a great, great, great, great song.

[Billy Corgan]

Heaven's on Fire. I mean. Oh, my God.

[John 5]

Crazy nights, like Lick It Up All Night X and Sex, you know, I mean, it's unbelievable. It's all about the music.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah.

[John 5]

It really is all about the music. And you can't. I really don't think you can deny greatness. I mean, there's. There's two types of music. There's good and bad.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah. I just think it's interesting because generally speaking, there's a ton of love for Kiss in the rock community. And it's not just sentimental. It's like everybody knows Ace is a great guitar player, that they wrote great songs, but somehow there's that sort of public thing. And I think a lot of it honestly has to do with Gene kind of talking in public for so many years, kind of making it about money. And I don't know if it was on the Donahue appearance that you referenced, but I remember watching Gene interviewed very. When I. I mean, I couldn't have been. It was probably mid-70s. I would have been 8, 9 years old watching them. And I was a fan. And he was so crass. And the audience was like, you're right, you know. Cause they'd all grown up on Gene Autry, you know, just want to sing these songs and, you know, Liza Minnelli and all this. And here's G. Just like, we do whatever we gotta do, you know, and it was. It was so crass that it was shocking. And it was effective in a kind of a market way of, you know, making people think about what they were doing in a different way.

[John 5]

But absolutely.

[Billy Corgan]

I think in the. In the long tail of that was then Kiss, it became. And you've seen it because you're a fan. You've seen those reviews from, like, 1975. Like, you know, they can't play, they can't sing, can't dance, you know, all that stuff.

[John 5]

So, yeah, it's. It's funny because in the beginning, they didn't want Jean to do interviews because he was.

[Billy Corgan]

Oh, because it was the character.

[John 5]

Yeah, yeah. And he was. He's so educated and so well spoken. And so when you, like, just for fun.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah.

[John 5]

You know, go on the YouTubes. And look up this interview. Donahue, 1974. And it's so weird because he's like, your audience looks very appetizing and stuff like that.

[Billy Corgan]

Oh, is that when he was trying to be that character?

[John 5]

Yeah. So they. They were just, you know, what's that famous?

[Billy Corgan]

Is it Mike Douglas, where he's on.

[John 5]

There with like, oh, it's Mike Douglas. I'm sorry, it's not Donahue. Oh, my God.

[Billy Corgan]

But, but, but. But there's that. It's Mike Douglas, but he's some actress. And she goes, oh, come on. I know. You're just a Jewish boy from the Bronx.

[John 5]

Yeah. You can't hide the hook. Yeah, yeah. Oh, my God.

[Billy Corgan]

So there's this, like. But he's trying to kind of play evil, right?

[John 5]

And he's, like, trying not to, like, smirk and laugh.

[Billy Corgan]

Mike Douglas, who's, like, totally schmaltzy.

[John 5]

Yeah, Mike Douglas. Oh, my God, I feel so bad. Why did I say Donahue?

[Billy Corgan]

But what was funny about that is now it looks kind of funny in the abstract, right? Because now we know how the. Like, when Paul was here, I said, you know, now we know how the movie ends, so we could kind of look at it and have fun and look at things, you know, in a. In a rosy way. But I think it's fascinating that they didn't really know what they were stumbling into. And. And there are those moments where Gene's like, am I supposed to be the evil guy? And then at some point, he settles on the kind of, you know, the. The stentorian kind of. Or is it centurion? Is it very Daijin?

[John 5]

Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

You know, and then, of course, Ace is just the loose cannon. The famous. The famous. What's it called? Tom.

[John 5]

Yeah, yeah. Tom Snyder.

[Billy Corgan]

Tom Snyder. I was on Tom Snyder once, and I was totally geeking out. But, yeah, but I mean, Ace is out of his mind, and you can see the band just, like, going, oh, God, there goes. There goes our career. He was killed.

[John 5]

The first time I met Gene, I was a little kid, and I. It was the Lick it up tour, so I was probably 13.

[Billy Corgan]

Just like a meet and greet type of deal.

[John 5]

No, I was. I skip school, which is very odd and meant to be.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah.

[John 5]

But I was like, I went to the posh train hotel in Detroit downtown. Not the safest place in the world, and a preppy kid from Grosse Pointe, Michigan, and got there and waited all day, and here comes Gene, and he just walks right by me and gets in the elevator. And I was like, I'm going to get in the elevator. I'm not going to blow this. So he's standing like this, like this. And I have the originals booklet. And I said, will you sign this? And he just wouldn't answer me. He was just. And I'm just this little kid like, standing there with, like, my booklet. And he just wouldn't answer me. He wouldn't look at me. So he gets. We get to the floor and, Billy, I'm being so honest. I can't believe I did this. Door opens, he goes, do you want me to sign that for you, son?

[Billy Corgan]

And.

[John 5]

And I go, no, it's okay. Can you believe it? I can't believe I did that.

[Billy Corgan]

Like, well, he hurt your feelings.

[John 5]

Yeah. Like, he just obviously didn't want to, you know, do it. So I was like, it's okay. Forget it.

[Billy Corgan]

Well, God bless him.

[John 5]

Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

All of them, really.

[John 5]

Oh, I love them.

[Billy Corgan]

So let's talk about you now. Thanks for having me. It's been great talking to you about Kiss. I love. And tell me if I'm wrong, but I saw that you started playing guitar. Cause you saw somebody playing on Hee Haw. And it was the guy. I think he was playing banjo. But.

[John 5]

Yeah, but of course.

[Billy Corgan]

What's his name again?

[John 5]

Jimmy Henley.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah. And of course, Roy Clark was like, oh, total shredder.

[John 5]

The best.

[Billy Corgan]

Crazy, crazy. And I think it's hard maybe for younger generations to understand that music was so scarce on television in America in the 70s, in the early 80s. Like, we took it wherever we could get it.

[John 5]

Yeah, Anything. Parts Family, the monkeys. Hee Haw.

[Billy Corgan]

Right. So we like. And Mickey Dolens was in that chair, too. And it was like. But. But it's that. It's like, oh, my God. Somebody singing a cool song to me. Thank God there's something.

[John 5]

Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

Banana Splits. Anything.

[John 5]

Anything, Right? Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

So talk a little bit about that. Because I think that's. He has a very underappreciated part of our culture. Absolutely. Because in middle America, it was sort of presented as like, you know, the. The local yokel, rednecks having a laugh. But when you really look, there was like, Buck Owens. I mean, you had real musicians there.

[John 5]

All of them were just incredible. And I would watch this with my dad and, you know, was. It was what was on. And I was so.

[Billy Corgan]

It was all. All that was on.

[John 5]

It was all that was on.

[Billy Corgan]

That's it.

[John 5]

I was so drawn to Don Rich and. And.

[Billy Corgan]

Oh, God, Don Rich.

[John 5]

Oh, my God. I was like, just.

[Billy Corgan]

Can that guy play?

[John 5]

Oh, my God. And Buck Owens Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

Telly guy.

[John 5]

So I was so drawn to the electric guitar. I was like. I couldn't. I just couldn't take my eyes off of it. And that's why I play a telly, because at my young age, I was like six, I. I was like, I want to play the electric guitar. And I didn't think they came in any other shape. I thought it was just.

[Billy Corgan]

Oh, you just thought that was the shape.

[John 5]

I just thought that was the shape of an electric guitar.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah.

[John 5]

And I was so mesmerized by it. And I just would always talk about the guitar. And so I saw Jimmy Henley in 1976 playing this banjo. He's playing Orange Blossom highway and just killing it. And he was this kid, too.

[Billy Corgan]

He.

[John 5]

He was a kid.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah.

[John 5]

And I was, like, shocked. I was like, I can't believe this is incredible. And. But even at such a young age, I mean, I. I play banjo and I love banjo, but even at a young age, I was like, I. I want to play electric guitar, not banjo, you know, so.

[Billy Corgan]

Something about the guitar.

[John 5]

Yeah. And. And it really was such an epiphany for me.

[Billy Corgan]

Do you play Scrugg style?

[John 5]

Oh, yeah, yeah. Oh, yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

I haven't quite. I can't wear the.

[John 5]

Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

Do you do the.

[John 5]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

I've never been able to get comfortable with that.

[John 5]

Yeah, it's. It's so interesting. And I'll use my fingers, like, live. I'll play.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah.

[John 5]

You know, but I'll just use my fingers. But I love the banjo. But Kihaw, like television, I think, is so important because it could change your life forever. You know, just being influenced by music and. And things like that.

[Billy Corgan]

Well, you know, Morello and Adam Jones and I all grew up in sort of the same area, so it's like. And we were all watching the same stuff. You were watching. Yeah. Outside of Detroit. Right. It's just like we were taking it anywhere. We could get it anywhere. So there's something really beautiful about that. I. I think that on some level, I almost say that the scarcity of information forced us to use our imagination and our musical ambitions in unique ways. And I think that's why we're all kind of unique guitar players. Yeah. Of course, we didn't sort of all end up in the same camp. Of course, it's loosely defined as alternative music, but I don't really think. Of course, like, I've always said no, but I, like, I. When I. When you play guitar, I understand how you play guitar. You know, we don't play the Same. But I get why you do what you do. It's not like I'm listening. It's too weird. To me, it makes total sense. Yeah. And I always felt that way. Morello and Adam, same way.

[John 5]

Yeah. And it's funny, the reason I do play guitar like that, because, just being honest, it's like I don't really talk about it that much, but I had, you know, I loved Randy Rhodes and Yngwie and, you know, everybody that we all loved, Steve Vai and Joe Satriani, and I learned all that stuff and really loved it. But I started, like, putting out instrumental records. I've had so many deaths in my family. Like, an unusual, strange amount. Like my mom, dad, two sisters, brother in law, best friend, father, you know, niece. Like, it just goes on and on. Very strange. And so I would go into therapy. I was going into therapy because I was like, you know, I thought it was cursed in some way. You know, it's just very strange. But the therapist told me something so imperative that I'll never forget, and it changed my life forever. He said, do something to occupy your brain. To really occupy your brain. And that's why I was started with the instrumental records.

[Billy Corgan]

Oh, okay. I was going to ask about that. We could talk about it now.

[John 5]

Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

She put out 10. Is that accurate?

[John 5]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

So it's just a way to have something to really. Hyper focus.

[John 5]

To hyper focus. Because if not, I'd probably, you know, be throwing feces at traffic or something, you know, so.

[Billy Corgan]

But you'd be playing on Hee Haw.

[John 5]

Yeah, that'd be great. But, yeah, it really helped so much. I mean, it was incredible. It's incredible because you're really trying to, you know, master this technique and this different styles of music and all that stuff, you know. So it really helped a lot.

[Billy Corgan]

That explains it. Yeah. Because you're. You're an unusual case because when you kind of came onto the musical scene and I heard about you and people talk about your playing, you know, you didn't have this immediate, like. I don't wanna say a Man Without a Country, but, you know, for a while you seem to kind of float between projects, bands, artists and stuff like that in. In a way that, like, Jeff Beck or something more like a gunslinger type. And you seem comfortable with that. But. But that explains it to me because I was like, well, how does this other component fit in it? Because you've never. You don't seem like somebody who wants to be viewed as a proto shredder type. Like, it's not really your brand.

[John 5]

Right.

[Billy Corgan]

Do you. How do you. Here's a question for you in 2025. What's. How do you define your brand?

[John 5]

I love to. I. I love music in general. Country, jazz, everything rock. But I love just being with different bands like Manson or Zombie or Motley Crue or. But then I love to, like, just go nuts and do these crazy, you know.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah.

[John 5]

Shredding shows and. And albums. I really have the best of both worlds because I'm not gonna go play, you know, home Sweet Home with sliding arpeggios and stuff like that. It just wouldn't work.

[Billy Corgan]

But you'd cause some kind of riot.

[John 5]

Yeah. But that's why it's just wonderful to have kind of the best of both worlds, you know, It's. I'm so happy and very fortunate to be doing what I'm doing.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah. Yeah. Well, it's. I mean, we're living the dream.

[John 5]

Yes, for sure.

[Billy Corgan]

Explain to me how you suddenly end up in LA at 17. Was it the classic Midwest? I gotta get out of here. I'm gonna go where the music is. Yeah.

[John 5]

Well, where I grew up, Grosse Pointe, it's kind of like. Like Beverly Hills, but kind of even beyond.

[Billy Corgan]

I once had a girl, a crush on a girl in Gross Point. So I have a little bit of Gross Point information.

[John 5]

Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

Back in the day.

[John 5]

It's beautiful. Like, it was beautiful because.

[Billy Corgan]

Sorry. Because. And I'm not a Detroiter, I'm a Chicagoan.

[John 5]

But Sure.

[Billy Corgan]

But, you know, people would say to me, oh, she's from Grosse Pointe.

[John 5]

Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

Meaning it's never going to work. See, that's a good one. Right?

[John 5]

That's a good one. That's a good one. That's actually really good.

[Billy Corgan]

Because I had a crush. She was very beautiful and it was like, it's never going to work. She's from Grosse Pointe.

[John 5]

That's so funny. That's so funny.

[Billy Corgan]

But the point being, she's always going to go back to the country club. She's not going to hang out with the Rock.

[John 5]

Of course she's not going. Which is, you know, like every Bill.

[Billy Corgan]

Murray ever movie ever.

[John 5]

But I was in high school and these. This is such a strange story, but these people from Warner Brothers came. Flew because heard about me and they.

[Billy Corgan]

Were like a local rep. Think.

[John 5]

Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

Okay.

[John 5]

Very odd.

[Billy Corgan]

Are you local bands? Because I. There's not a ton of information about you in this period of your life.

[John 5]

Like, did had like, this local band. We played all Van Halen, you know, and it was just we won all these battle of the bands. And I was playing nightclubs at, like, when I was in junior high. And, you know, it was like, are.

[Billy Corgan]

These just like rocker bars? Yeah, okay.

[John 5]

Yeah, rocker bars.

[Billy Corgan]

Not more on the rock side, which.

[John 5]

You would maybe know. Harpos.

[Billy Corgan]

You remember Harpos? I don't think we ever played there, but okay.

[John 5]

Yeah, but so there was. Anyway, these people came and they were like, oh, we think he. He would do really well, and blah, blah, blah. So I didn't even graduate, so I just went, okay, stop there.

[Billy Corgan]

So what do your parents say at this point?

[John 5]

So I've never had a drink, never had a smoke or anything. Never cigarette or anything. And they were supportive because they were.

[Billy Corgan]

Like, you're an adult and you can handle this.

[John 5]

Yeah, well, we know you're not gonna, like, you know. And I was so obsessed with the guitar. I mean, so obsessed. And I drove out. And I drove out actually with the drummer from Megadeth. He was on the album. So far, so good. So what.

[Billy Corgan]

What was his name? I can't remember.

[John 5]

Chuck Bueller.

[Billy Corgan]

Okay, right.

[John 5]

So he. I drove out with him because he lived in Michigan. You're driving out there and I knew nothing. I mean, I was so sheltered.

[Billy Corgan]

So you have. You have your stuff and the guitar.

[John 5]

Yeah. And I was so sheltered, I knew nothing. I could hardly cross the street, you know, so.

[Billy Corgan]

Especially coming out here. So that would have been what year?

[John 5]

I'm trying to do 88.

[Billy Corgan]

That's a good time to come out here. Yeah, I actually came out here right about the same time, too. Really? Yeah. A friend's sister had moved out here, so we kind of came out here for a week to kind of hang. Yeah. And went to a club. Scream.

[John 5]

Sure.

[Billy Corgan]

Saw the Fuzz Tones.

[John 5]

Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

And Ian Asbury showed up and sang a song. It was very la.

[John 5]

Yeah. Yeah, it's. It was. I mean, a great time to. Great time to be here.

[Billy Corgan]

Plus Early Janes. Right.

[John 5]

I saw everybody.

[Billy Corgan]

Tsol.

[John 5]

Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

When they kind of went almost like more a new wave.

[John 5]

Yeah. Rage. And. And they would just play these clubs and.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah, there was. There was that interesting little sliver of time.

[John 5]

Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

Care Metal was kind of at the. On the Wayne. And there was that sort of moment of like, where does this go?

[John 5]

Yeah. And you would see a lot of bands just get up and play, like Guns N Roses at the Cat House. They would just get up and play.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah. I'd hear the stories, but I was never there.

[John 5]

Yeah, I was. I was there. Luckily, Ricky Rackman would let me In. I was so young. I was so young. But he knew I was. Ricky knew. He knew. He knew I didn't drink or anything.

[Billy Corgan]

Like Jiminy Glick.

[John 5]

He knew. But I drove out here with the drummer and he was like, oh, I gotta go to my friend's house. And I'm like, we're like, in a bad neighborhood. What are you talking about? And he would go score dope. I didn't know what he was doing. I was like, oh, how's your friend? You know? And I didn't know. I still is your friend.

[Billy Corgan]

Okay.

[John 5]

Yeah. And all of a sudden, he was all better.

[Billy Corgan]

Okay, you're triggering your memory. Because when I was out here and we were staying with, like, the friend's family type thing, the guy, the man of the house, he was smoking heroin.

[John 5]

Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

So suddenly, like, we had to leave.

[John 5]

Right.

[Billy Corgan]

Like, we got kicked out.

[John 5]

Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

Which is like. But we're just sleeping on the floor for a few more days and we're going to go down to Hollywood Boulevard. It's like, you got to get out now. And we kind of got thrown out. Barry la, right?

[John 5]

Barry la. Kind of same thing.

[Billy Corgan]

Right.

[John 5]

When I got to la, I slept on this floor of these guys. And that Chuck knew, and he's like, yeah, just sleep here. And I was like, okay. And I. I don't know how I fell asleep. I just didn't get so excited. And they robbed me first night, so I. I didn't.

[Billy Corgan]

I thought I was assuming the best.

[John 5]

Yeah. First night they robbed me, so I was like.

[Billy Corgan]

Robbed your guitar?

[John 5]

No, just the money I had.

[Billy Corgan]

Sleeping with you.

[John 5]

Yeah, yeah, just the money I had. Just.

[Billy Corgan]

Oh, God, I'm sorry to hear that.

[John 5]

Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

And we laugh now, but.

[John 5]

Yeah, you can laugh.

[Billy Corgan]

It's terrible.

[John 5]

Yeah, it was. And I knew one other person and luckily, you know, I.

[Billy Corgan]

Until he was Nikki Sixx. No.

[John 5]

Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

Right. Oh, my God. I didn't know all that stuff.

[John 5]

So.

[Billy Corgan]

Somebody, I assume you love him still? Rudy Sarzo.

[John 5]

Love Rudy Sarzo. Love Rudy Sarzo.

[Billy Corgan]

How amazing is Rudy Sarzo? So you come in. Somehow you end up in a band briefly with Rudy called Sun King. Right.

[John 5]

Yeah. So I'm playing.

[Billy Corgan]

I didn't know about Sun King.

[John 5]

Yeah, I don't really. It's so weird. I don't really talk about, like, a lot of this stuff. Like, I love this stuff because I do, too. But people don't ask it.

[Billy Corgan]

Well, you know, they want to ask about, you know, what's it like being on the road.

[John 5]

Yeah, yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

Private plane. I'm like, no, no. Tell me how you got from there to there.

[John 5]

And that's why.

[Billy Corgan]

Because you and I know that's an impossible journey.

[John 5]

It's so hard.

[Billy Corgan]

Which is why we kind of sit here. Go. Okay, it worked. I'll take it. But those we like. You're sleeping on the floo.

[John 5]

Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

You know, you ain't sitting. Like, one day, I'm even playing at the stadium with the crew. You're like, oh, my God, I can't eat.

[John 5]

Yeah. Literally.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah.

[John 5]

So I'm living at the Hollywood Billiards. That was on Hollywood and Western and no bathroom, no food, no anything. And we actually had to put nails outside of our door so they wouldn't kick it in because there's all these gang members and stuff, which is a pretty good idea. But then we had this gig and.

[Billy Corgan]

But there's a gig.

[John 5]

Yeah, but then there was a gig at Gazzari's, and Betsy Brownie.

[Billy Corgan]

Is Gizzari still alive at this point?

[John 5]

Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

So you got that whole experience.

[John 5]

It was Gizzarris.

[Billy Corgan]

Keep going, keep going.

[John 5]

Yeah. And so Betsy Brownie. Rudy was putting a band together, and he was in Whitesnake at the time. And I was like, oh, my God, Rudy Sarz was coming to the gig.

[Billy Corgan]

It's like this Rudy Sarzo.

[John 5]

Yeah. It was like, you know, Paul McCartney coming to the show or something. There was the sweetest. The most beautiful, best, talented, sweetest person you could ever meet. You know?

[Billy Corgan]

Talk about an angel.

[John 5]

Oh, incredible. Just an incredible person. So I am so excited. We're like, oh, my God, Rudy Sarzel's here. It's him and his wife and a couple waitresses. No exaggeration.

[Billy Corgan]

So. One of those LA Knights.

[John 5]

Yeah. Okay, we gotta go out there. All right. So we open up, like, this, like, thing without the. Just little instrumental piece. Not anything. Just, like, chords and stuff. And then the singer comes down and he. He bumps his head on, like, something because it's real dark. He bumps his head and we're playing and the singer goes like this. And there's blood coming down his head. And he goes. The singer just goes guitar solo. And then I just play in this guitar solo because he's, like, fixing himself up. Rudy's like, this is the best show I've ever seen. This is incredible. And so that night of dreams, that night, he took me to Denny's, and It was like 2:30 in the morning.

[Billy Corgan]

He's like, this is the Denny's, like.

[John 5]

Down on Gower, on Sunset, right? And rock and roll Denny's, you know, like the. Yeah. So it was like. Like I was like, oh, my God, you know, I can eat.

[Billy Corgan]

And I'm hanging out with Rudy Sarza. Yeah. Not listening. In that order.

[John 5]

Yeah. I'm gon put this band together and our manager is going to be Trudy Green.

[Billy Corgan]

Right?

[John 5]

You know, Trudy Green, Rolling Stones, all this stuff. I was like, oh, my God. So I literally got in my car and I was like, I made it.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah.

[John 5]

And Rudy really is the reason where, you know that I met a lot of people. I did a lot of sessions with John Wetton, Wilson Phillips. Like all these people. Like all these people. He introduced me to so many people and it was just an incredible experience. He taught me so much and took me under his wing and it was just incredible. And just the sweetest person.

[Billy Corgan]

I mean, talk again. What an angel to run into. Because he's just the best, you know, Like, I asked him when we did the Ozzy gig, the last Ozzy gig, we were talking a bit about him being on tour during those. The Blizzard of Oz days and all those. And I said, what were you doing while all that mayhem was going on around you? He said, I was in my bunk reading my Bible. Yeah, he's that guy. He's just that guy.

[John 5]

He's that guy.

[Billy Corgan]

Also, I saw that you end up becoming friends and working with Bob Marlette. I know Bob a little bit. I worked with him on a Tony Iommi solo record. Bob's an interesting guy. Right. He kind of. He found that niche in there where it's like. As the music business was kind of dissipating, it's like you need a guy like Bart Marla to actually bring projects together. And was he feeding you work or kind of helping you out or kind of explain that relationship a little bit?

[John 5]

I met Bob through Rudy and. Cause Bob and Rudy were playing like, you know, knew each other in the late 70s. And Bob is another one I owe everything to. He introduced me to so many people, like, and he just really taught me a lot about recording and doing sessions. Because I love doing sessions. I loved it.

[Billy Corgan]

What kind of session work were you doing?

[John 5]

Anything?

[Billy Corgan]

Any gig.

[John 5]

Baywatch, Flipper, Salt N Pepa.

[Billy Corgan]

I love it.

[John 5]

Everything. Anybody that needed a guitar player, I would just do it. And I can read. And so I would just go in and do the stuff. But I would do it for half the price of anyone else. Like way less than anybody else. And I would do.

[Billy Corgan]

Was it an economy just I need. I need to work. Or are you just happy to do the Sessions.

[John 5]

I just thought to myself, I don't know how smart I was, but I was like, well, I'm gonna do it for half the price of everyone else and at twice the speed just to get it done.

[Billy Corgan]

I see.

[John 5]

And then I started, and.

[Billy Corgan]

You get a rep. Yeah, yeah.

[John 5]

There's this dumb kid that'll do it for, like, a few bucks, you know, And. And so I just started getting all these. All this work from. From Bob. And he was incredible. Just incredible. But he introduced me to Rob Halford.

[Billy Corgan]

Right. And this is the. The Reznor.

[John 5]

Yes. Yeah. And he said, go, you know, Rob wants to meet you and go out to Phoenix. And I'm not a great flyer, and I always take these Reese's Peanut Butter Cups with me and, you know, put them in my pocket. And I. And I get to Rob's and I'm all nervous, and we're talking about.

[Billy Corgan]

You're on his white couch.

[John 5]

Yeah, I'm on his white couch. Do you know the story?

[Billy Corgan]

No, I just made it up.

[John 5]

But I'm guessing he's got this white couch. And I sit on there, and I'm like.

[Billy Corgan]

I just imagine Rob having a lot of white furniture, and just like, I.

[John 5]

Am right now talking to him, and I'm like, oh, my God. Thinking to myself, oh, my God. So he goes, you want something to drink? And I said, absolutely. So he gets up, and I get up like this and take the cushion and there's chalk all over, and flip it around, and I'm just walking around. Just like, if I was walking around here, you'd be like, what's the matter with this guy? And years later, I told him, and he goes, johnny, I really. I thought it was the cat. I thought the cat just went in there or something like that. But it's a true story. But, yeah, this all comes from Bob Marlette. And just, you know, we did so much great work together, and just still recently we did Skynyrd together and all this great stuff.

[Billy Corgan]

Nice to work with Bob, man.

[John 5]

Yeah, well, not lately, because of, like, Motley and all this stuff, but a little bit here and there. Absolutely. I love him dearly.

[Billy Corgan]

You end up playing with Lena Ford opening for Kiss. I mean, back to Kiss for a second. It's gotta be a pinch me moment. Now this is Kiss before the full makeup reunion.

[John 5]

Oh, absolutely.

[Billy Corgan]

So where was kiss at? 95.

[John 5]

Kiss. I'm gonna say this is maybe Hot in the shade.

[Billy Corgan]

Okay.

[John 5]

You know, or maybe a little later, maybe revenge.

[Billy Corgan]

Is this Bruce Kulika, guitar?

[John 5]

Yeah. Who's great Who I love.

[Billy Corgan]

I used to hang out a lot with Bruce back in the day. And always.

[John 5]

Lovely guy, wonderful, talented. So I was doing a session for Lita and she said, you know, do you want to come do some live shows? I was like, you know, I like to travel.

[Billy Corgan]

Opening for Kiss.

[John 5]

I don't like to travel. And she goes, oh, we're going to open for Kiss. And, like, San Antonio. And I was like, okay, I'll be there, I'll be there, I'll be there. So I'm on plane and I have this footage, like the. The camcorder. That's like one of those, you know, so big, you know, and they're on the plane, but like regular seats. I don't even think they were in first class because I can see them. And I was like. And I was like, years.

[Billy Corgan]

This is before the. The van came back together.

[John 5]

And I would film them walking to the bathroom. I had this and I. And I filmed, like the road cases. And it was so rad. It was so.

[Billy Corgan]

That'd be a fun present sometime. You put that together for the boys and say, this is when I was stalking you.

[John 5]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's why. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, he loves it.

[Billy Corgan]

So this is a Jimmy Chamberlain. Jimmy the drummer.

[John 5]

I love Jimmy.

[Billy Corgan]

Jimmy.

[John 5]

God, I love Jimmy.

[Billy Corgan]

He's very Joliet. But Jimmy calls him giggers. So Jimmy hates giggers. Right. And Jimmy's estimation of a gigger is the guy around LA never quite gets traction, waiting for the call. You know what I mean? So I'm not saying you were a gigger. You might quantify yourself as that. You know, Jimmy's best friend is Billy Moeller. I'm sure you know Billy. Do you know Billy from.

[John 5]

Of course, sure.

[Billy Corgan]

So. And Billy, in his own way, would loosely be quantified as a gigger, but he's obviously past that. But I guess I'm just trying to make you laugh. But, I mean, at some point, you worried that you're just going to become kind of one of those guys? Does it make sense the way I'm asking it?

[John 5]

Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

I mean, we know how the story ends, so it's laughable now. But at the time, do you worry I'm just going to become one of these guys where it's like. Because you. I was like. And I love Katie Lang. You know what I mean? We used to work with her music collaborator, band. I can't think of his name right now. He played on one of her records. Really lovely. And she's lovely, too, but, like. And she's an amazing singer. And you, like, you said, you love country music.

[John 5]

Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

But, you know, now you're playing with Katie Lang. You're over here. You know, you can get that rep in town where you're like, you're the guy they call, but you're not the guy who ever ends up in the band.

[John 5]

Right, right, right. You know, I. When I was younger, just like a lot of other people, musicians, they always dream of, this is what they want to do, and this is what they want to do. I never dreamt like that. I never thought. Never.

[Billy Corgan]

You never had a kind of an aspirational vision?

[John 5]

I had one of being a session musician, really making records. And I was like, God, that would be a dream. That's why I would study so much of reading and all this stuff.

[Billy Corgan]

Was there somebody in your mind that you. You know. Cause we know about the Wrecking Crew. And was it like a Wrecking Crew vision?

[John 5]

You know what it is? It's so funny. I wish I had a cooler story, but there was this show in the 70s called Session man, and I had a terrible, terrible flight. When I was a kid, we would always go to Palm Springs, and it was just one of those 70s, horrible flights, and I was throwing up, and it was just horrible. And I said to myself, I never want to fly. So I saw Session man, and what they would do is they could just go to these studios and play and make a living.

[Billy Corgan]

Was this a docu series or was this like a.

[John 5]

It's like a little story. You can find it on YouTube. It's really interesting. It's like this guy just trying to make it as a session, but like a TV show. Yeah, we never heard of a TV show. Yeah, it's worth a Google. And I thought to myself, that's what I want to do.

[Billy Corgan]

Okay.

[John 5]

And at a very young age, and.

[Billy Corgan]

But so when you're doing all this, it's not. You're like. You're not thinking you're going backwards. You actually think, no, this is what I.

[John 5]

This is exactly what I want to do.

[Billy Corgan]

That also explains it.

[John 5]

Yeah. So I never thought.

[Billy Corgan]

Why would.

[John 5]

Never think of myself like people knowing my name or wanting a picture or playing in front of all these people.

[Billy Corgan]

It explains something about you because, like, again, from an outside point of view. And this is before I knew you a little bit personally. You know, usually someone in your position, they're looking to. It's the Yngwe thing they're looking to find. It's either gonna be about them or they're gonna end up with the right gig.

[John 5]

Right.

[Billy Corgan]

So you're odd in that because you're. You're not actually looking for that because everybody else is. Yeah. So you just assume it whether you're just true or not. Does that make sense? Did you feel people putting that on you too? Like, shouldn't you be more something, something or.

[John 5]

Yeah, yeah, of course. And I just, I still feel like I'm gonna wake up and go, oh my God, I had this dream I was in Molly Crue and like, well.

[Billy Corgan]

That we'll get to that dream slash nightmare in a moment.

[John 5]

Weird, crazy life it's been. And you know, like, it's just. I just wanted to be a session guy and that was it and just have like a normal home because I grew up in the big home with the maids and all that stuff and I had all. I.

[Billy Corgan]

What was it that your parents did that you had. You guys had money like that?

[John 5]

My father was an investor and also insurance, but one of the higher up guys at all states. Good hands people. He was like one of the fingers.

[Billy Corgan]

You know, My dad was the. My dad was the fourth.

[John 5]

Yeah, yeah. And so it was like that. So, yeah, we lived on the lake and it was wonderful, you know, it was absolutely wonderful. It was, yeah. Oh, just an incredible.

[Billy Corgan]

It explains a lot about you though, because there's a confidence there. It's one of my questions in a bit, but you've always struck me as somebody who has a confidence because as you know, and you've worked with them and some of them are mutual friends of ours, you know, most people, particularly on the alt side of the equation, come from a lot of damaged homes, broken homes, and we're all whacked out of our minds. So you've always struck me as some sort of like island in the middle of the ocean that doesn't need to sort of be thrown around like the rest of us, you know, and it's. I think it comes across in the way you play. Even there's a confidence, but it's not an arrogance confidence. It's just like I'm not trying to prove anything to anybody.

[John 5]

Right. No, I. God, I'm so. That's. This is why I love this show.

[Billy Corgan]

Oh, thank you.

[John 5]

I mean, it's just. You hit it right on the head. I'm not trying to prove to anybody I'm doing this and learning, still learning every day, like just to just keep my mind in. In intact, you know, because, you know, I have physical ailments from just of what happens and just Horrible crippling physical ailments from my past of the tragedy and things like that. So when.

[Billy Corgan]

What tragedy is that? I don't even know.

[John 5]

The deaths of.

[Billy Corgan]

Oh, I'm sorry.

[John 5]

No, no, no, no.

[Billy Corgan]

I call it trauma. That's a fair word.

[John 5]

Trauma.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[John 5]

So it was so these physical things.

[Billy Corgan]

But did it have a physical manifestation, the trauma? Oh, you don't have to go into it, but it was Billy.

[John 5]

It's hor. It's the worst thing you can ever imagine. So I got this thing called. I'm not. I can't believe I'm going to even say it, but I got this thing called prostatitis.

[Billy Corgan]

Okay.

[John 5]

Non bacterial prostatitis. And it's.

[Billy Corgan]

It sounds like a metal band from Denmark.

[John 5]

It does, doesn't it? It's not.

[Billy Corgan]

Sorry.

[John 5]

But it's when your. This is so weird. Pelvic floor squeezes your prostate so hard.

[Billy Corgan]

I'm sorry.

[John 5]

No, it's crazy.

[Billy Corgan]

It sounds like.

[John 5]

And it's just from stress. You can't piss, you can't sit, you can't do anything.

[Billy Corgan]

And this is a stress related medical condition. Wow. So you're so trauma stressed out that it has this physical manifestation.

[John 5]

Yeah, that's why I was going to therapy and all this stuff. So it's the most crippling thing I remember. I was. I'm just gonna spill it all. I was doing this show with Slash and Ozzy and all these people and we were going to Norway and I was bedridden for months with this because you can't sit.

[Billy Corgan]

The only thing you could do had you been diagnosed.

[John 5]

Yes.

[Billy Corgan]

So you knew what it was and they don't. What. I mean, sorry to ask for the symptom. Like what do they tell you what to do?

[John 5]

Therapy, muscle relaxers, Xanax. But you know, I don't. But I'm not a drug taker. So that's when the. You know, I started really honing in on this stuff. But I was on this plane with Ron Wood and Ozzy and all this stuff and I was sit. Kind of like on my back. So I wasn't sitting like on the area on the area. And I would act like I was sleeping and it was just horrible. But I just. But luckily, you know, you just get through it and it's just from all the trauma. It's just all the goodness, you know, gracious. But yeah, I'm sorry to hear that. Yeah, it's. It's. It's nuts. But, you know, it's. That's where it all comes from, you know.

[Billy Corgan]

Well, you've hit it well, because, I mean, you. For the lot of us. I mean, you seem like one of the sane ones and there aren't many.

[John 5]

Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

And you played with a lot of crazy people.

[John 5]

But that's the confidence. Like you were saying, what I do every day doesn't matter. Like, I was in zombie for 17 years. I would go over the set every day, play it. Playing the same set we've been doing for 17 years every day.

[Billy Corgan]

Does that relax your mind? Is this sort of thing relaxes everything. Interesting.

[John 5]

Yeah. Same thing with, you know, Motley or Manson or anything. Every day. Every day. Every day. I did it before I came here. I woke up extra early and did my instrumental set and then the Motley set. Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

Wow. Is it just because it allows you to kind of. Safe place. Is it interesting?

[John 5]

That's exactly it.

[Billy Corgan]

Well, let's talk about the safe place of David Lee Roth. Diamond Dave.

[John 5]

Diamond Dave.

[Billy Corgan]

Let's start here. I love Diamond Dave.

[John 5]

We all do.

[Billy Corgan]

I'm not looking for any gossip on Diamond Dave, but. But as a gunslinger guitarist, I'm definitely on the sloppier end of that scale. But.

[John 5]

No playing.

[Billy Corgan]

Thank you. But. But. And I. And I had the same conversation with Steve. I. I mean, stepping into the shadow of Eddie Van Halen is. You know what I mean? That's. That's an itch. It's one thing to think I'm in the Van Halen cover band. I can do it. It's one thing to sit there and play Van Halen one in front of a cassette deck. It's another thing to stand up in front of those fans with that guy and have everybody dissecting every guy note you're playing.

[John 5]

Yeah. There's a lot of great stories. And pick one. I will tell you, even from the very, very, very beginning, I was sitting on my friend's couch and I saw the book Crazy from the Heat. And I thought to myself, I wonder what Dave's doing? Because it was after the whole Vegas debacle.

[Billy Corgan]

And I was like, he was on a lot on Warner Brothers, I think, trying to get a movie made. Right. Wasn't that, like, weird?

[John 5]

But he wasn't really. It was pretty quiet.

[Billy Corgan]

Okay.

[John 5]

And there was an address on the back. And I called and wrote a letter or something. I said, hey, I'd like to send some music.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah.

[John 5]

And Ed Anderson answered the phone, who was Van Halen's bodyguard from all the great.

[Billy Corgan]

I know the name. Yeah.

[John 5]

Yeah. And so I went to Bob Marlette's and recorded three songs and sent them. And they were like, oh, we really like these songs. Can you give us three more? And I'm like, oh, God, you know, I gotta beg Bob for, like, more studio time. Yeah. So I gave him three more. Oh, we really like these.

[Billy Corgan]

Was it. Are they Van Halen? Yes. Are they okay?

[John 5]

Absolutely.

[Billy Corgan]

Okay.

[John 5]

So I, they said, oh, we'd like these. Can you use three more? And I said, unfortunately, I can't. I'm so sorry. You know, I, I.

[Billy Corgan]

This is after you gave him six.

[John 5]

After.

[Billy Corgan]

That's for three more.

[John 5]

Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

Geez.

[John 5]

I said I had no. I have no. That's a good question, you know, And I get a call back, oh, Dave wants to meet you. Come to his house. And I was like, what? You know, so this is where you're.

[Billy Corgan]

Where you're, where you're ghee.

[John 5]

Like, this is like the Thomas Guide, you know, So I didn't know. I got the address and I drove there after I got off the phone to make sure I knew where I was going.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah.

[John 5]

And I had my, like, terrible, terrible Toyota Tercel. And, you know, I got there and, and I just found my way. And I got there a little bit early and rang the buzzer. Hello. You know, and it's that voice. And he goes, john, great to meet you. We're going to make a record. We're going to make it just like Van Halen did. We're going to do it live in the studio. And I was like, I was.

[Billy Corgan]

The classic one where he had to do a bunch of acoustic stuff and there was no click or something.

[John 5]

No, this is the electric. It's DLR band, slam dunk and all this stuff. I was like, oh, my God. And he goes, all right, we're going to go Monday, we're going to go to Ocean Way, and it's going to be 12 noon. I said, Mr. Roth, I have a rehearsal with Rob Halford. And, you know. And he goes, well, I don't want you after rehearsal. I want you fresh. So we're going to start at 6am and I was like, okay. So. So I'm, like, freaking out. And I remember we're in the studio, Ray Luzier's playing drums and, And Bourbon Bob is playing bass. And that's me because, you know. Yeah. He said right before we started, no joke. He goes, if you can't do it in two takes, you can't do it. Roll it. And that's what you hear on that record. It's just. Yeah, that's Two takes. Yeah. And it was incredible.

[Billy Corgan]

I think that's the first time I heard you and. And realized it was you playing. Cause I bought that record.

[John 5]

Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

Cause I heard something, I thought, well, this is interesting, because somehow you brought a fresh take to the thing. Yeah. Does it make sense? It's like, it. It. It's kind of what you would expect, right? Yeah. Yeah. Pyrotechnic. But at the same time, I was like, okay, this guy isn't trying to do his Eddie Van Halen imitation. He's got his own thing. So it did stick out that way.

[John 5]

Right. And it was so magical. But you have one of those CDs now. Dave did all that himself with this guy Kieran. Because this was on his own record label.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah. Because it had like some weird early Photoshop Betty Page. Oh, yeah. I was like, what is this? Yeah. And Dave did that. I have one in somewhere in my attic.

[John 5]

He pressed them.

[Billy Corgan]

I had no idea.

[John 5]

Yeah, he did all those. And I thought that was really smart. And this was when record.

[Billy Corgan]

Record companies were still record companies, and they were. They were not happy that artists were being independent.

[John 5]

Right.

[Billy Corgan]

It was the whole Prince.

[John 5]

And he was like one of the very first ones. But I'll fast forward to the acoustic record. This is a great story. We were in the studio playing these songs and loving it and having such a great time. And I was going on the road. I forget was somebody. And Dave's like, this is great. Sounds awesome. And when you're gone, we're going to have Greg Bissonnette come in and we're going to. He's going to play drums, and maybe we'll get Toggle to do some keyboards. And I was like, great, Dave. You know, let me know how it goes. And the engineer goes, well, wait a minute, we can put drums on this. There's no click.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah.

[John 5]

Dave's like, what do you mean? And I'm putting my guitars in the car. He comes running out and he goes, I've never said this before. He goes, john, I'm going to ask you for a favor. And, you know, a real favor. Can you redo this whole record with a click? And it's late and I have to catch a plane in the morning. He goes, I'll pay you, like, this much money. And I said, dave, I'm not going to take your money. I'll do it. And there's all these overdubs and all this stuff. And I did it for him. I redid the whole record in a day for him. Just because that's our guy.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah. It reminds me of when Sid Barrett, sadly was going insane and had left Pink Floyd Gilmore, who had been his friend, and the other guys, Floyd were still supportive and he was technically signed to Harvest, which was their label. They made those Sid Barrett records. I don't know if you ever heard them. Well, the only way they could record was Sid would go in and record live with all those weird stops and starts and timings. And then they'd have to figure out how to go back in and build a band around the tracks. And David Gilmore told me, he said it was a nightmare because it's like, you know, it's like, how do you follow that weird timing? And it would seem impossible, but it was like a label. It was. And. But it was this labor of love where they so badly wanted to support him. But it was one of those things, like, how do you. How do you. How do you overdub drums on an acoustic. I mean, played live with singing, you.

[John 5]

Know, like, do you think they cut it up a little bit? Do you think.

[Billy Corgan]

They must have done. I bet they did anything they could think of.

[John 5]

It's so interesting. I never knew that.

[Billy Corgan]

If you go back and listen to those records, I don't know if you've ever heard them. They're really beautiful.

[John 5]

Yeah, I have.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah. So those were all posthumously added music.

[John 5]

So odd.

[Billy Corgan]

I think in some cases they played live with them, but I think what I think. I can't remember if it's stuff that David Gilmore told me privately or stuff I've seen in interviews, but basically it got to the point where he couldn't play the same thing twice. So even if they rehearsed up a take, like, okay, you play the drums, I got the bass. He would play it differently the next time.

[John 5]

Interesting.

[Billy Corgan]

So the only way they could track to it was let him do whatever number of takes, edit those together, and then try to add instrumentation to it as he kind of slid into total madness.

[John 5]

Jeez, that's. That's.

[Billy Corgan]

That's intense.

[John 5]

Yeah, that's intense.

[Billy Corgan]

So not quite that. But. But, but I get. I get why they're. That's an impossible task.

[John 5]

Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

Let's just talk one more beat about Roth. So now you're out there in front of those. Those audiences, you're playing his solo stuff, Van Halen classics. How was your response from that crowd? How did you. Were they. Were they nice? Were they respectful? Were they thought you were insane? Or.

[John 5]

Here's. Here's the thing. Dave said, come over. Come over to the House. It's so scary.

[Billy Corgan]

I know where this goes.

[John 5]

You just had to, like, laugh about this. But he goes, come over to the house. We're gonna practice some moves. Like, you're gonna, like, crouch down. I'm gonna kick over you. And I was like, like in the Panama video. And he's like, exactly. And I'm like, this is the greatest thing ever. And. And then I feel bad about this. It's even kind of hard to talk about. And then I get a call from Marilyn Manson camp.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah.

[John 5]

And then I couldn't go do the St. Nicole. I couldn't do the live shows with. With Roth.

[Billy Corgan]

Satan called.

[John 5]

Yeah, Satan called, but I couldn't do the live show.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah. Oh, you didn't end up touring. Oh, I didn't know that.

[John 5]

Yeah. Because I joined Manson.

[Billy Corgan]

Ah.

[John 5]

And I loved Manson. Loved, loved, loved. During Katie Lang, like, before we go on stage, I mean, listen to Hate Anthem and.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah.

[John 5]

You know.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah. Was Dave mad at you?

[John 5]

He was. He understood. And I remember.

[Billy Corgan]

He'S a smart guy.

[John 5]

He's very smart, but he was very supportive and he's very kind. Like when the David Lee Roth, you know, and just. It's Dave, you know, and it's just like, he's very rational. Smart, smart, smart person. I remember calling Gene and I'm, you know. You know, Gene. And I said, gene, what should I do? Should I join Manson or stay with Roth? And he goes, join Manson. And. Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

Because Manson was still very much on the upswing.

[John 5]

Oh, yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah.

[John 5]

It was mechanical animals just coming out.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah.

[John 5]

And that's what I did. And I felt bad, you know, but me and Dave are still great friends today. We've worked many, many.

[Billy Corgan]

That's cool that he was supportive of you because again, he's smart enough to know, okay, this is a good thing for this guy.

[John 5]

Yeah, he was. He's always been so kind. And we wrote a really nice tribute to Eddie.

[Billy Corgan]

Okay.

[John 5]

It's called Nothing could have Stopped Us Back Then. And it's a song about Van Halen.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah.

[John 5]

And please, Billy, just look up the video. And it's just so touching. It's just Van Halen clips of. And it just tells the story of how they were together.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah.

[John 5]

It's incredible. But I love Dave. He's an incredible person.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah. It's a shame because maybe time will solve all these things because you still have the books coming out and it won't be long all this other Van Halen material is going to come out on the market. But like all great bands, there's 80 different stories that need to be told. But at the end of the day, and we go back to what we were talking about before with even Kiss, you set aside all the stories, all the bull, all the egos, all the cocaine. It's like if, if the music wasn't awesome, nobody would give it. And Van Halen, when those four were together and I. Did you ever get to see that lineup together?

[John 5]

Of course.

[Billy Corgan]

What, what tours did you see?

[John 5]

84.

[Billy Corgan]

That's when I saw him. So we probably, we probably saw him two days apart. Of course, because they either were going from Chicago, Detroit, Detroit, Chicago.

[John 5]

Absolutely incredible.

[Billy Corgan]

Unbelievable.

[John 5]

It's.

[Billy Corgan]

It's electric. Electric at a level that's almost hard to quantify.

[John 5]

It's like describing the color blue. You can't do it.

[Billy Corgan]

Exactly.

[John 5]

I believe the Beatles. I can't even put other bands, let's say the Beatles and then Van Halen. It's when those four guys are together, it was so magical. Eddie was such a brilliant, brilliant genius. His rhythm playing, his if, if he never played leads.

[Billy Corgan]

Oh, just his rhythm playing. Some of the greatest rhythm players of all time. And I, I mean we're talking all the way through jazz guys, everybody, like.

[John 5]

Like it was so different than any other guitar player. His rhythm playing, it was so percussive, of course, you know, and being a drummer, but it was, he was so incredible and an innovator and a great, unbelievable lead player. And on top of that, an unbelievable.

[Billy Corgan]

Songwriter and good looking and funny and all of it.

[John 5]

Couldn't we just put a bubble around him and just say, okay, world, just.

[Billy Corgan]

But that's the beauty of seeing them in 84. It was like that last flash. Obviously they did more touring later, but that last flash, prime of Youth, the relationships were still somewhat intact. How was the vibe the night you saw him? Because I saw him from the side. I was up in the balcony at what was called Rosemont Horizon back in the day, near the airport. And so I could see from the side of the stage down, obviously seeing the band. But then I could see Eddie's little guitar world behind. So when Ed would leave the stage to go have a smoke and talk to his tech, I could see into his little tech world. And Roth was doing these five minute, seven minute soliloquies, jokes, whatever his, this, that small C was into at the time. And Eddie would just sit, I could just see him shaking his head, getting pissed off. And when I met Eddie for the first time and I interviewed him for Guitar World, Guitar World, whatever, I asked him about that and he was like, man, I just got so sick of him just talking. And I got. Would get so mad. Cause I just wanted to play. So I just. I learned to just leave the stage, let him have his shtick. And then when it was done out, I'd come. So they only played like nine songs. It was very short. But, God, when they played Holy moly.

[John 5]

There's. There's really, there's.

[Billy Corgan]

But how was the vibe when you saw him? Incredible. Because they were all. Because I felt like I saw him on a bad mood night.

[John 5]

Oh, no. In Detroit. I was. I couldn't believe it. It was unbelievable. And I think it was the MTV Lost. Lost weekend. Because that happened in Detroit. And it was. I mean, it was magical. I'll never forget my very first concert was Iggy Pop, Santana and the rolling stones in 1981. And that was, you know, a big stadium. But nothing will Compare to that 1984 show. It was just unbelievable.

[Billy Corgan]

Okay, so speaking of Satan, were you around Manson? Before you end up in that world, were you around them at all?

[John 5]

It's a great question. I heard they needed a guitar player.

[Billy Corgan]

After Daisy, but I'm saying, had you hung out socially with them?

[John 5]

No.

[Billy Corgan]

Okay. See, the reason I bring this up is because we were making our album Adore, so we used to.

[John 5]

Great record.

[Billy Corgan]

Oh, thank you.

[John 5]

No, no, no.

[Billy Corgan]

Unbelievable icon. So we were. We were going up to that house they were all living in.

[John 5]

Oh, yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

So that's why I end up doing some of the ghost writing on that record and giving them advice on how to do certain things. So I always saw the whole mechanical animal things playing out in real time. And it was wild. And it was wild.

[John 5]

It was wild, it was wild. But I love them so much. I didn't.

[Billy Corgan]

They did have a great camaraderie during that time. It kind of all went later, you know what I mean? Including, like, one of them saying weird about me, like. And I never had a problem with the person. And it was like a camp that was.

[John 5]

I got great stories with that. There's reason for that stuff.

[Billy Corgan]

Okay.

[John 5]

And it's so strange, but.

[Billy Corgan]

Like.

[John 5]

Okay, so I guess I don't even know where to start, but I'll start from where I was playing with Halford, and I wanted to see Manson so bad, and he didn't play because something happened. And I was so bummed I didn't get to see them live. And I always missed it. You know, I was doing Conan o'. Brien. I ran down to Roseland to watch them and their show. Got like, ended like an hour earlier. So I never got a chance to see them.

[Billy Corgan]

It was wild times.

[John 5]

Yeah. And so I get a call from coming home from Europe. Oh, Manson wants to meet you because of the whole Trent Reznor Nothing Records, Rob Halford thing.

[Billy Corgan]

Okay, that makes sense.

[John 5]

And so I got in the band. And this is like what you said before. I was at Tony Cula's party, birthday party.

[Billy Corgan]

They much agree with Tony Ciula.

[John 5]

Yeah. And I was there and I was like, you know, and all the guys are there. And Mansa was like, really nice. And all the guys were really nice. And I liked Pogo. I thought Pogo looked really cool and crazy.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah.

[John 5]

And I had like. I really thought Pogo was cool. And I was like, hey, Pogo. At Tony's party, wouldn't say anything. And I thought maybe didn't hear me. Maybe didn't hear me. Hey, Bogo, how's it going? Nothing. And I was like. And it's just me and him. I go, I'm gonna try one more time. I'm saying to myself, hey, Pogo, how you doing today? He goes, I'm not gonna say hi to you. You're only gonna be in the band for six months. And I was like, it's just like, what you were saying, like, not Manson, but the other guys were so mean to me, like. And I just wanted nothing but for them to succeed.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah.

[John 5]

I played everything just. I was first one there, last to leave, played, you know. And I remember at rehearsal. It's funny, I never told these stories. I was at rehearsal and we were doing that Great Big White World, that song. And Pogo was trying to remember the keyboard part. And I go, oh, it's like this Pogo, you know, but not like. I kind of went aside and just showed him and he went. He got so mad at me. I was like. And then Manson came in and was like. They were arguing. They were arguing. Like, I've never seen two people argue in my life still to this day. And I thought, oh, the band's over.

[Billy Corgan]

Oh, that's just another. That was a Tuesday.

[John 5]

That was just another day. And I had no idea. Yeah, but they were. But not Manson. Manson was always, you know, really good and kind to me, but the other guys were so me. Ginger was nice, but, like. And I was like, I wonder why, you know, but it was so weird, like, when you said that, it brought.

[Billy Corgan]

Back that I still know. I mean, I. Like I said, I just was curious if you. If you were around that camp before you ended up Playing with them because, you know, I was watching it happen in real time. And of course the separation, you know, Manson starts to become a much bigger star and there was resentment. This classic band stuff. Did you. I guess the gestation of the question is. And it goes back somewhat to what you talk about being a studio musician in your mind in this situation now you're helping write music, a lot of strong music. You know, the guitar obviously is very featured in that, in that group. Did you feel in those four or five years that you were there, that you were part of it or you still feel, or do you feel like one foot in, one foot out? Does it make sense?

[John 5]

I felt a part of it.

[Billy Corgan]

From.

[John 5]

Manson and I had such a respect for Twiggy. I thought he was super talented. He's crazy talent, crazy talented, great songwriter. And he was like weird with me in the beginning, but then he knew I was there as a whole and then he started to open up a little bit and we worked together and we worked really well together. I believe we wrote some great music. I felt like I was in the mix. I felt good, I felt strong. But this is where it got really strange. Golden AGE OF GROTESQUE TOUR and everything's going good, everything's going great. And all of a sudden I was getting these weird things. Like they were like, oh, you messed up in this song. And I was like, I don't really remember that, but okay. And then it happened again. And I told our sound man, Brad Maddox, I said, brad, can you record the show? And he recorded the show DAT tapes back then. And he said, oh, you messed up in this part. And I go, no, yeah, you did me. You messed up. And I played it and I go, no, it's right here. And they got so mad. So one of the members were. Was trying to get me out.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah.

[John 5]

And then, you know, I. I just thought everything was so good. I mean, the band was super tight, great. And you know, yeah, I got let go and so I was like. I was surprised at it.

[Billy Corgan]

Well, I got defriended at some point, so I experienced it sort of more on the social end, but I watched it happen to others where it would just like the machine would roll on and people would just get kind of cleaved off. And so that's why I was asking because, you know, you seem to take great possession of it and. And the band was benefited from that. You know, bands like that. I don't want giggers, you know, it really has to feel like people.

[John 5]

Yeah. And I, I just. I wanted to stay as long as I could stay. But, you know, what was really incredible is that Manson gave me a call and he apologized. And I just thought that was so kind. And he's, you know, he's. I'm so sorry. You know, I knew you were. Just wanted the best for the band and all that stuff, and I just thought that was really very nice of him. But I wanted to stay as long. I mean, I stayed in Rob zombie for 17 years. You know, I want someplace to just hang my hat.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah.

[John 5]

You know, is that.

[Billy Corgan]

Because, I mean, if you. If you. If you look at the personalities, we'll include Lita Ford in this. Lita Ford, David Lee Roth, Manson, Rob Zombie. You know, in all. In those cases, it's like, you know, some charismatic person. It's like their brand. And then, you know that you need this. This other person to bring some spark and fire. It's just up. Up until you working with Motley Crue, it always felt like, at least from a public point of view, that you never quite found it. And maybe that's just because it's observational, you know, like in the five years that you were with Manson or whatever, you were in it. You said you were in it. But from my viewpoint of view, it's. It goes by fast.

[John 5]

It does. Don't blink.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah, right. So I was just curious how you felt in that. Did you. Does it feel. Did it. Did it feel mercenary? Did it feel. Some. Did. I don't know. It's hard for me because I'm always at the center of it. And the reason I'm asking is it has a certain sensitivity because through the years working with different people, they'll kind of. Kind of sometimes give me this vibe that I'm somehow responsible for their discomfort. And I'm not saying you experience that, but they'll put that on me. And I'm like, what the. What am I supposed to do with that? I mean, on me. I figured out how to do this. I write my own songs. I don't necessarily need a lot of help, but it doesn't mean I don't want you here. But it's like they almost want me to bridge something I can't bridge.

[John 5]

Right.

[Billy Corgan]

Does it make sense?

[John 5]

Absolutely. I mean, you write your songs, you write your music, your melody, your lyrics, but you want people behind you to support what you're doing.

[Billy Corgan]

Well, even I'm a lot more open to contribution than people would think.

[John 5]

I mean, Jimmy.

[Billy Corgan]

Well, that's.

[John 5]

Come on.

[Billy Corgan]

Well, that one fell out of the sky.

[John 5]

It's like Geez.

[Billy Corgan]

I saw a clip today of Taylor Hawkins son playing our song Silver Live Somewhere in Europe, just playing these. And it's like. And, you know, I was there. I mean, you know, 1992, when you were playing those crazy beats. I was like, I'll take that.

[John 5]

You know, But Manson was always nice to me.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah.

[John 5]

You know, he was always nice to me. So I was crushed, you know, when I got fired and.

[Billy Corgan]

Did they give you. That's. Did. I don't know. Maybe it's. Maybe it's his cruel sense of humor. Did he say anything in particular? Was it Tony that gave you the.

[John 5]

It was Tony, you know, and they just. He just said, oh, he just wants to write with other people. And I was like, okay.

[Billy Corgan]

But, yeah, to be fair. And I'm not defending him, to be fair, because I had a conversation with him in 1998. Yeah. About this very subject, because I was around the mechanical animal stuff. I tried to explain to him because he's not a very musical person. You know, he's very conceptual in his artistic thinking, but he's not a musician, maybe is a better way to put it. You know what I mean? Like, you and I could sit, even if we've never written together, and we could write a song because we speak a common language. And I tried to explain him that, you know, he was gonna forever be dependent on whoever was in the room with him because he couldn't write his own tunes. And he saw that as a form of freedom. And I said, no, you're gonna ultimately find this a form of enslavement. And I wasn't telling him to get a Tascam and learn to write his own songs. But I said, the source of your frustration is never going to go away. So you need to have a better sense of your collaborators and understand why they're valuable because you think you can trade them in and out, but you're not going to find that's that easy.

[John 5]

Like Roth and Eddie.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah. Or even Roth and. I mean, even Eddie and Hagar.

[John 5]

Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

You know, when I interviewed Eddie in 98 for Guitar World. Guitar World, that was. Sammy had left maybe within the last six to nine months, and there was a ton of acrimony in there. And Eddie was going on at length.

[John 5]

Oh, absolutely.

[Billy Corgan]

None of that got printed, of course, and that's fine. But I got the firsthand blasts.

[John 5]

Oh, yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

Of how he felt. But it's the same thing, right. You know, Rick Nielsen about Robin Zander. And it's like you got one of, you know, you Got one of the greatest vocalists, if not the greatest vocalist of all time.

[John 5]

Absolutely.

[Billy Corgan]

Rick Ocasek complaining to me about Ben Orr in the Cars.

[John 5]

Really?

[Billy Corgan]

Oh, yeah. Because I worked with Rick around the Same age, late 90s. It's this frustration of needing other people. But to me, I sort of. I'm not making it about me, but I'm saying I sort of crossed that bridge a long time ago that I was gonna need people. I was okay with being self contained. And I would be like, okay, well, I need a drummer. You know what I mean? But in the case of somebody like Manson, I also saw where he had a hard time understanding that you can't just dream your crazy dystopia into reality. You need people to actually implement into real things. And I remember having a very specific conversation about Alice Cooper's band. And I love Alice Cooper, of course, but here we're, you know, in when the time we're taping this, the Alice Cooper band just put out their first album together in like 50 years. And if you're an Alice Cooper fan, like I am, and he made a lot of great music after the band. But that original band had something that's a one of a kind thing. And same thing with Manson. When that original band dissipated, including whoever doesn't like me in that band, something got lost because Manson became the name Marilyn Manson. But I was standing there actually saying, this is a lot more valuable than you think it is because it just doesn't happen the way you think it happens.

[John 5]

And we communicated, like musically in the studio. We really had a connection. And writing like, you know, Disposable Teens and the Nobodies and fight song and this is the new stuff.

[Billy Corgan]

I still hear that stuff. That's how you know it's working, right?

[John 5]

And we. We did it like this and it was like we really had an incredible connection. Writing wise.

[Billy Corgan]

It was.

[John 5]

It was great.

[Billy Corgan]

Okay, last bit.

[John 5]

Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

Everything's just swimming along. Motley Crue.

[John 5]

Unbelievable. Unbelievable, right? It's so weird to even say.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah, well, here you are.

[John 5]

Yeah. It's so strange.

[Billy Corgan]

So 2022. I wrote, this is my own quote. I'm gonna quote myself. And I didn't. I wrote this in my notes, but I had to quote myself. This is my quote for you. You are uniquely voiced for that circus.

[John 5]

That's great. That's a bumper sticker that I have on my car.

[Billy Corgan]

Because there was a time I still am very fond of Nikki, but there was a time where we were kind of friendish and spoke to him a lot in that period. And then I've worked with Tommy and I've known Tommy for years.

[John 5]

Yeah, we just. Sorry to interrupt. We just went to O and I said, oh, I'm going to see Billy. And he didn't have. He just was saying so many great things about you. He loves you.

[Billy Corgan]

Oh, sweet.

[John 5]

He loves you.

[Billy Corgan]

I love Tommy too. So I feel like I have a really good grasp on the gig because I know two of the principals pretty well. You know, I've spoken for hours and hours and hours with Nikki about songwriting and music and I've worked with Tommy and. Fantastic musician, you know, just natural talent. In fact, I speak in Alice Cooper. I was thinking of something to tell you today. I was in the studio working with Tommy on this album of mine from 2014 and I wanted to play a certain thing and I go, you know, it's like that song by Alice Cooper, 18. And he goes, very Tommy with the sticks. He's like, bro, don't really know that one. I go, tommy, how the do you not know I'm 18 by Alice Cooper? He goes, I just didn't really listen to that. But only Tommy could say that. You with a straight face and you're like, really? How do you not know that song? You said just. And I'm. And so of course, like, I'm thinking, you know, and he's like, I guess it was into something else. And I'm like, I know exactly what you were into. It wasn't the radio. Right. So just walk me through the basics of them coming to you because I know you had a somewhat of a relation, musical relationship with Nikki that went back before. How per. How much did you know them personally?

[John 5]

I. I mean, I was so close with Nikki. Like, I mean, so close. We talk like 10 times a day and just like, what? Just chit chatting for years and years. Decades, you know, like. And I knew Tommy. I played on some of his stuff and I was kind of always in the mix, you know, and I, I, you know, knew Mick really well and talked to him. They were just my friends, you know, and there was not one time where there was ever talk like, oh, you should never. Not once. We would just go to the mall.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah.

[John 5]

Go ride our bikes and, you know, go to Neiman Marcus and trying funny clothes and stuff, you know, spangled je. So it was. It's just like playing with your, your buddies, you know, it's. It's very, it's very strange how it all came.

[Billy Corgan]

Am I correct in assuming that they figured out it was you before they called you and they never auditioned anybody.

[John 5]

Yeah, no, it's like. I mean, I'm around those guys so much playing guitar, and I've been playing these songs since I was. Since the records came out.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah. Such great.

[John 5]

When they gave me the set list and they were like, all right, learn these. I'm like, I know all these.

[Billy Corgan]

I know these.

[John 5]

Like, I could go play a show.

[Billy Corgan]

Touch such great guitar playing. Such a cool, great, one of a kind guitar player. I just love his.

[John 5]

I. I love him. Absolutely love him. And it's just. I don't change a note.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah.

[John 5]

I don't. Why would you? Yeah, it's just like taking a piece of classical music and going, that doesn't work.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah.

[John 5]

You play exactly how it was recorded. Now I'm. I love it so much that I will play exactly how it's recorded, not how it was played live, but because I would go see bands when I was little and I would love these certain guitar licks or certain drum fills and they wouldn't do it.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah.

[John 5]

But when I saw, like Rush on the signal store, it was exactly how it was, and that's how I'd like to do it.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah.

[John 5]

Because people have grown up with these songs, including myself.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah.

[John 5]

And they want to hear it just like how it was on the record. It's perfect.

[Billy Corgan]

Why would you change it?

[John 5]

Why would you change it? It's perfect.

[Billy Corgan]

Because I was listening to the. What's the album with the pentagram on the COVID Senior 1. I mean, I was listening to that recently. It's. It's like. It's like a perfect record. It's like. Yeah, I wouldn't change it. Yeah. I wouldn't change anything.

[John 5]

No, all of it.

[Billy Corgan]

It's just. It's like. It's really. Is a perfect record.

[John 5]

And the videos, you know, the videos were on mtv, every other video, you know, and it's.

[Billy Corgan]

It.

[John 5]

It's weird. Like when I'm on stage with them and we're playing these big places and I see Vince, like, singing Home Sweet Home and I see Nicky or Tinto, I'm like.

[Billy Corgan]

What is.

[John 5]

This is weird. You know, it feels like it's like in Hot Tub Time Machine where the guy, like, imagined himself in Molly Cruise. It was. It's like that, you know?

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah. Well, I think it's a credit to how they, how they view you as a person. I mean, it's. I'm not saying it's not about music because you got to be able to do the gig, but I. When I saw that you got the gig. I totally understood why they wanted to work with you. Because it's a weird spot, right? You got a guy who's obviously mix. You know, his physical situation is well documented and. But it's one of those great weird rock things. It's sad because as a fan, you want to see the band. So when they picked you, it made total sense. It's like, here's somebody we can trust, somebody who's gonna do it right, so we don't have to worry about this person. Especially with everything they've been through. It makes sense to me. So I'm glad. At least my sense of it is that it's a happy gig for you.

[John 5]

It's a great gig. It's a great gig because they know I love them and I love the music. And that's how, you know, I, I, I go to rehearsal and do a gig every day. I just treat it with such respect.

[Billy Corgan]

Okay, two things, because we don't need to belabor it. I gotta say now, because I'm a guitar whore.

[John 5]

Yes.

[Billy Corgan]

The telly.

[John 5]

Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

I'm like, I know. I know you like your telly, but.

[John 5]

I'm like, I know, I know.

[Billy Corgan]

I'm not asking you to defend it.

[John 5]

No, no.

[Billy Corgan]

But did you ever consider going? Like, it's like, I'm really putting you on. I don't, I don't do gossip on my show. But this is like. This is as tough a question as I ask.

[John 5]

It's like, you know when you're coming into your own and you're like a certain kind of woman? You like either like boobs or a butt or something like that. And that's how I was with the telly.

[Billy Corgan]

So it's Don Rich's fault.

[John 5]

Yeah, it's totally Don Rich's fault. It is totally Don Rich's fault. It's just something in my brain went boing and I, like, loved it.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah.

[John 5]

I just loved it. And, you know, my first real guitar was a Stratocaster.

[Billy Corgan]

Okay.

[John 5]

And like, you, you know, of course, play Stratocaster and love that Strat and made it.

[Billy Corgan]

I love that thing.

[John 5]

Some of the greatest songs ever on that Strat.

[Billy Corgan]

I hate Fender, but I love that strap.

[John 5]

Yeah. And it. I didn't love it. I was waiting for my telly, you know, I get it.

[Billy Corgan]

Okay. I get it. Because I, Jimmy Chamberlain, actually, my first Strat, he came to me and he said, I got the Strat. It was like a 74 bullet head strat. And I said, okay. I tried it. Like, how much. He goes, $270. So I bought it. And that became the first pumpkin guitar, the one that got stolen that I got back after 27 years. Stolen in Detroit.

[John 5]

That's right. You told that on St. Andrews Hall. At Saint Andrews Hall, 1992.

[Billy Corgan]

Somebody walked out the back door with. Just got it back, like, whatever. A few years ago, you were talking.

[John 5]

About it on one of the shows, one of the episodes.

[Billy Corgan]

So. So, okay, so that becomes the sound for me. And like you. I understand what you're saying. As soon as I had the guitar, I was like, this is what I've been looking for my whole life. Yeah. This is like. This is the exact feel and the thing. And I can do the Jimi Hendrix thing. And it was like, okay, cool. So about five years later, I'm somewhere at a bar, some in Chicago, this guy comes to me, he goes, he's still playing that Stratocaster. And I go, yeah. He goes, did you get it from Jimmy? And I go, yeah, yeah, he sold it to me. He goes, you know, he stole that from me. Oh, my. He goes, jimmy and I used to be roommates or something. And he goes. And I'm thinking like, oh, shit, he's gonna ask the guitar back. He goes, it's cool, you can have it.

[John 5]

I'm glad you're playing it.

[Billy Corgan]

He goes, how much they charge you for it? And I go, 270 bucks. He goes, oh, that explains it. That was the rent. So Jimmy didn't even upsell the guitar to like 300. So he's a burger money.

[John 5]

Brilliant. That's the greatest story.

[Billy Corgan]

So he stole his friend's guitar, sold it to his bandmate, paid the rent, and then the guy. And the guy was. He was like, you can have it. It's all good.

[John 5]

But think about this story. Think about this story. But think about how that guitar found you and you wrote all those great songs.

[Billy Corgan]

Okay, I get it. So you don't have to, but.

[John 5]

No, no, no, seriously. That wrote these songs.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah.

[John 5]

Do you ever see the Red Violin?

[Billy Corgan]

No. I know what it is.

[John 5]

It's a great movie about this violin that's, you know, hundreds and hundreds of years old and goes all.

[Billy Corgan]

It's.

[John 5]

I mean, it's the same kind of thing. It's unbelievable.

[Billy Corgan]

So you are the telly, and the telly is you. And there you are playing a telly and Motley Cruise.

[John 5]

And I'm so proud. I'm so proud.

[Billy Corgan]

All right, cool. I get that. Okay, one more tough question. I know we talked a bit about you doing your solo records. I'm just curious why you don't. There's gotta be somebody in your saying, can't you have a song with the singer and we could do a single and is there a reason you keep your solo records without vocals?

[John 5]

Just because I have a singer. I think I've always had a singer. If it was, you know, Manson or Zombie, and now Vince Neil, but that's my singer. So I just kind of, like, just go nuts, you know, and. Yeah, and that's just. I just love to just go crazy and play. I love to go out and play so much. I'll play anywhere with electricity, you know, And I'm not doing this to, like, push something, but I have this idea, which is going to come to fruition next year. I'm going to do 50 states in 50 days. 50 shows.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah.

[John 5]

You know, so 50 in a row.

[Billy Corgan]

Okay, now when you. Let's go back to our beautiful wives. When you sit down at the kitchen table, I got this idea. She says the.

[John 5]

Just disappointing. I think we end right there.

[Billy Corgan]

I don't think we're gonna talk. Thank you, thank you, thank you.