Malcolm McDowell | The Magnificent Others with Billy Corgan

Summary

Podcast Summary

Podcast: The Magnificent Others with Billy Corgan
Episode: Malcolm McDowell
Date: October 15, 2025
Host: Billy Corgan
Guest: Malcolm McDowell

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Episode Overview

In this captivating episode, Billy Corgan sits down with legendary actor Malcolm McDowell to unpack the actor’s remarkable career, focusing on the inflection points that defined it. From the artistic and cultural impact of If.... and A Clockwork Orange, to the personal challenges of navigating fame, artistic integrity, and controversy, McDowell candidly reflects on the moments that made him. The conversation covers the nature of creative lightning, working with geniuses like Stanley Kubrick and Lindsay Anderson, surviving in an industry that seeks to typecast, and the resonance of art across time.

The warmth, wit, and candor of both men create a rare space for probing the questions behind artistic immortality and the mechanics that power it.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. The Genesis of A Clockwork Orange and Early Career (00:00–07:00, 15:49–20:24)

• Stanley Kubrick’s Process: McDowell recounts how Kubrick watched If.... repeatedly before deciding, “‘We found our Alex.’” (20:16)

  • “Stanley had a projectionist on 24/7 standby, got Paramount to bring out the reels of film to watch it.” (19:09, McDowell)
  • “Stanley looked at his wife and said, we found our Alex.” (20:22, McDowell)

• McDowell's Initial Reaction: He found the A Clockwork Orange novel difficult, but recognized upon rereading it that Alex was “one of the great parts.” (24:00–25:00)

• Casting Experience: Kubrick’s hesitancy to outright offer the role (“Yes.” in a low tone) and his need for control in negotiations (24:25–25:12).

2. The Influence and Atmosphere of Lindsay Anderson and Theatrical Roots (04:01–07:30; 28:01–31:34)

• The Royal Court Theater: McDowell’s passion for working at the avant-garde Royal Court, which ironically had him performing in Shakespeare (Twelfth Night) rather than cutting-edge plays (04:32–05:30).
• Lindsay Anderson as Mentor: Anderson was a “people person,” nurturing actors unlike Kubrick.
  • “A director that loved actors is a rare thing indeed.” (17:05, McDowell)
• Acting Technique: Anderson’s advice to McDowell on playing Alex: “the scene in if.... where you open the doors to be beaten... you look at them and you smile. That's how you play it.”
  • “What an extraordinary piece of direction. Because that's all it took. Boom. First day, sail through.” (43:14, McDowell)
• “Brechtian” Approach: Anderson called McDowell a Brechtian actor: “you will let the audience know that you're acting, but you're going to make them believe you anyway.” (37:00–37:45)

3. Kubrick’s Genius and the Making of Clockwork Orange (02:24–03:53; 25:13–27:35; 45:21–47:14)

• Kubrick’s Directorial Style: Kubrick understood McDowell’s instincts, humor, and persona before shooting began. Directing occurred mostly off camera, with Kubrick telling McDowell, “That's why I hired you”—leaving him to interpret Alex on his own (27:13, McDowell).
• Creation of the Iconic Look: McDowell improvised Alex’s “trance” while listening to Beethoven, which became the iconic poster image:
  • “It was a sort of intensity, like a possession... And he [Kubrick] was laughing so hard, he went, oh, that's it. That's it. That's great.” (45:56–46:56)

4. Art, Zeitgeist, and Cultural Impact (30:01–35:12; 47:25–50:46; 57:11–64:01)

• Lightning in a Bottle: The right physical look, psychological attitude, and “absolute defiance” came together in the roles, especially Mick in if.... and Alex in A Clockwork Orange (49:18–50:02).

• Enduring Symbol: McDowell as Alex became a generational symbol, influencing icons like David Bowie and John Bonham.

  • “There are few symbols per generation that sort of make the cut. And that's one of them.” (44:51, Corgan)

• Resonance of the Anti-Hero: Discussion of how audiences/later critics wrestled with embracing a “heroic” immoral protagonist and the timelessness of that theme.

  • “It's an immoral man who is made out to be the hero of the film. That is, by the way, never been done before in a studio movie.” (61:04, McDowell)

• Societal Parallels: Billy and Malcolm draw lines from the film’s themes—social conditioning, behavioral psychology, state violence—to current conversations about AI, digital influence, and shifting morals (58:42–61:19).

5. Surviving Fame & Maintaining Integrity (64:01–68:16)

• Post-Clockwork Choices: McDowell refused to get typecast, turning down lucrative but poor or derivative roles, choosing instead to follow his artistic instincts and long for meaningful collaboration.

  • “If I play that game, I'm dead... go back to the theater... Do your own film with the man you really love, Lindsay.” (66:45–67:51)

• Longevity: His English theatrical roots and humility kept him from being consumed by Hollywood:

  • “You always think that's your last part. Nobody's ever gonna ask you again.” (68:15, McDowell)

6. Caligula: Art, Scandal, and Vindication (69:00–75:11)

• Production Anecdotes: McDowell shares outrageous stories about the making of Caligula: lunches with Gore Vidal, meeting Princess Margaret, and the exploitative chaos introduced by producer Bob Guccione.
• New Cut & Redemption: The recently restored version aligns with his artistic intent, and McDowell feels “completely vindicated.” (74:46)
  • “It is the movie I thought I made.” (74:43, McDowell)
  • “I loathe Caligula. I loathe Guccione. I thought he was an evil man... But now... I feel completely vindicated.” (73:48–74:46)

7. Meeting Legends and Reflections on Legacy (82:07–87:37)

• Old Hollywood Encounters: McDowell describes awe at meeting stars like Paulette Goddard and Gene Kelly—who famously snubbed him for using “Singin’ in the Rain” in a violent context (85:00–85:57).

• Comparisons of Acting and Music: The two reflect on similarities between musicianship and acting, and the emotional power of music.

  • “It takes you three minutes to make people laugh, to move them, and then make them cry. It takes me two hours to do the same.” (86:29–86:48, McDowell)

• John Lennon Stories: McDowell’s Liverpool ties and memories of seeing the Beatles as the Silver Beatles, and his admiration for Lennon’s raw genius.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “[Kubrick] looked at his wife and said, we found our Alex.”
  (20:23, McDowell)

• “That’s why I hired you.”
  (27:13, Kubrick to McDowell)

• “What an incredible piece of direction. That’s all it took. Boom. First day, sail through.”
  (43:14, McDowell on Lindsay Anderson’s advice)

• “There are few symbols per generation that sort of make the cut. And that’s one of them.”
  (44:51, Corgan on the Clockwork Orange poster)

• “The journey with Stanley was he did all the directing of me before we ever turned the camera.”
  (26:45, McDowell)

• "It's an immoral man who is made out to be the hero of a film. That is, by the way, never been done before in a studio movie."
  (61:04, McDowell)

• On musicians vs. actors:
  “It takes you three minutes to make people laugh, to move them, and then make them cry. It takes me two hours to do the same.”
  (86:29, McDowell)

• “You can’t repeat it again and again and again. And that is the greatness of it.”
  (89:59, McDowell)

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Timestamps for Major Segments

• 00:00–03:53 – Early A Clockwork Orange casting, Kubrick’s genius
• 04:01–07:30 – The Royal Court Theatre, Shakespeare, Lindsay Anderson
• 17:43–18:24 – The director as “people person,” comparing Anderson and Kubrick
• 19:09–20:24 – Kubrick’s process in picking McDowell
• 25:13–27:35 – Directing style: Kubrick vs. Anderson
• 30:01–35:12 – Zeitgeist: cultural timing, symbolism, Lennon & Burdon
• 37:00–37:45 – Brechtian acting and breaking the 4th wall
• 43:14–43:47 – Anderson gives the key to Alex’s character
• 45:21–47:14 – The poster image, improvisation, and Kubrick’s laughter
• 57:11–64:01 – Censorship, public reaction, and the cultural legacy of A Clockwork Orange
• 64:01–68:16 – Typecasting, career longevity, English theatre roots
• 69:00–75:11 – Caligula: scandal, restoration, and personal effects
• 82:07–87:37 – Old Hollywood, meeting Gene Kelly, acting & music intersection
• 87:48–89:59 – The ineffable magic of creative moments

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Final Reflection

The conversation ends with both men marveling at the mystery of authentic artistic magic. McDowell asserts that the timelessness and power of his career-defining roles come partly from the impossibility of consciously recreating such moments on command—a truth every artist, from actor to musician, must ultimately accept.

“What makes it so incredible and indelible is the fact that you can't. You can't repeat it again and again and again. And that is the greatness of it.”
(89:59, McDowell)

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This summary encapsulates the flow, richness, and genuine camaraderie of the episode, providing a detailed tour for those who have not heard it while preserving the flavor of the original conversation.

Transcript

[Malcolm McDowell]

I could see him struggling. He didn't really. He was in two minds whether he was going to tell me what the title was. Well, what is it? He said, Clockwork Orange. Somebody asked me how I got to be cast, and I went, oh, I think he saw if Stanley looked at his wife and said, we found our Alex.

[Interviewer]

Wow.

[Malcolm McDowell]

I read it again and I knew that it was one of the great parts. Hmm, let's play the music and I'll see. And there was a sort of an intensity, and he. He was laughing so hard, he went, oh, that. That's it. That's it. That's great.

[Interviewer]

You made the right decision because you're still here.

[Malcolm McDowell]

I reading the New York Times best and worst lists. I have one film on each.

[Interviewer]

Malcolm McDowell, thank you so much. You honor me by being here, so I'm gonna go out on a limb, but you tell me if I'm wrong. You've talked about Clockwork Orange about a hundred times more than you've ever talked about the movie. If is that close or is you wanna give me a better ratio?

[Malcolm McDowell]

Well, you know, Clockwork is the jewel in the crown, as they say. It's an amazing movie. And, yes, I've talked about it ad nauseam. And so what I try and do occasionally now is zen myself back to sort of arriving in the car to shoot and seeing Stanley in his big kind of Parker thing, regardless of the weather, by the way. And then he had a dark blazer, a blue shirt and gray pants, and he wore that for a year. And I said, have you got six pairs of everything?

[Interviewer]

Really?

[Malcolm McDowell]

No, I think. I don't know, maybe he had two. But he. He considered dress to be of minimal importance and.

[Interviewer]

But here's a man who would import up a palm tree from Vietnam or something. You know what I mean?

[Malcolm McDowell]

Well, he put it, you know, he. He was absolutely brilliant on the technical side. Anything technical. Stanley was the man you could argue.

[Interviewer]

You could argue the greatest ever on.

[Malcolm McDowell]

That level without a question. I mean, 2001 is one of the most extraordinary feats of special effects ever. And it took, you know, science fiction on a millennium jump. Before Stanley, there was basically Flash Gordon and cardboard sets. And Stanley went into the whole philosophical aspect of it and made it a very. Even though it was very antiseptic in many ways, it was also very moving and touching. Yeah. In a weird way, of course, the only person really, with any character was, of course, a computer.

[Interviewer]

How. Well, we're. We're in that now. In. In our AI world. Yeah, yeah, I saw. I Saw recently, maybe in the last five years, they did in Hollywood a 70 millimeter print. A film print reissue of the. Of 2001.

[Malcolm McDowell]

Stunning. I saw it on 70 mil.

[Interviewer]

Right. And it. It was remarkable because a lot of those movies, the special effects date. Pretty bad.

[Malcolm McDowell]

Yeah. Somehow it held up well because he. It wasn't computer generated, it was models.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Malcolm McDowell]

They were brilliantly done.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Malcolm McDowell]

And he had the most amazing special effects team. They won the Academy Award. Of course. I think Stanley kept it.

[Interviewer]

Yeah. So let's talk about if. Because this is a movie dear to my heart and it certainly launched you. And then sets up the Clockwork Orange jewel in the crown moment. You're doing Twelfth Night. I saw. I saw where you. You said you were playing the worst character in Shakespeare wrote.

[Malcolm McDowell]

I say that with. Is that Sebastian tongue in my cheek now. Yes. Sebastian and Twelfth Night.

[Interviewer]

I was going to ask you with what.

[Malcolm McDowell]

One great speech and right after the interval and you know, when they've just come out of the bar, one great speech to shut them up and that's it. But, you know, as a young actor have never done a film, of course, to work at the Royal Court was really, you know, an achievement because the Royal Court was where, you know, Look Back in Anger started. It's where all the great avant card playwrights worked. Joe Orton, for instance. All of Joe Orton's was done at the Court.

[Interviewer]

Oh, I didn't know that. Okay.

[Malcolm McDowell]

The Court was like the greatest avant garde theater and I wanted desperately to work there. Of course, I get there and it's not avant garde at all. It's Shakespeare, the oldest, creakiest old author of all.

[Interviewer]

But it was the whole thing where they do like a modern version of the.

[Malcolm McDowell]

It was only modern in the dress. Okay. Text was, of course, Shakespeare. And how do you.

[Interviewer]

How just as somebody who's done Shakespeare, how do you feel about when they do this kind of weird adaptations? Are you cool with that? Do you like it or.

[Malcolm McDowell]

It's okay. I mean, look, there's plenty of room for everything.

[Interviewer]

Sure.

[Malcolm McDowell]

And we've seen, you know, straight plays. This, that, that everyone.

[Interviewer]

But I love Cory. Is it Coriolanus?

[Malcolm McDowell]

I can never say Cor.

[Interviewer]

I love Coriolanus.

[Malcolm McDowell]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

And there's a cool version like the BBC did that you can find.

[Malcolm McDowell]

But I think one of the coolest versions, actually Helen did. Helen Mirin did with May have been Tony Hopkins. I'm not sure about that, but it was a while ago.

[Interviewer]

Of course. But are you sure that wasn't when they did Temp Tempest?

[Malcolm McDowell]

No.

[Interviewer]

Okay, Because. Because there's like some weird.

[Malcolm McDowell]

Oh, no. Tony did the Tempest here in LA at the Mark taper. I saw it.

[Interviewer]

Okay.

[Malcolm McDowell]

I went round and he went, oh, Jesus. I knew. I knew some being. I go, what? He goes, oh, darling. I just. I just speeded through the thing. I just gotta get out of here. And he literally did speed read it. It was fast, but, you know, that's one way of doing it.

[Interviewer]

Yeah. No, just because this version of Coriolanus that's out there that I think it's the only time it's ever been turned into a film that I know of.

[Malcolm McDowell]

You know, they do seen the film.

[Interviewer]

They do it as like a narco terrorist thing, like. Oh, yeah, South American gangs and.

[Malcolm McDowell]

Well, it's like when McKellen did Richard III, which was absolutely brilliant, you know, and they did it like the Nazis party. I've never seen that in Germany.

[Interviewer]

Was it a play or was it.

[Malcolm McDowell]

It is amazing. With one of the great performances from.

[Interviewer]

But is it a play or a movie?

[Malcolm McDowell]

It was a play.

[Interviewer]

Okay.

[Malcolm McDowell]

And they made a movie of it.

[Interviewer]

Oh, okay.

[Malcolm McDowell]

And it's amazing. It's really.

[Interviewer]

Oh, fantastic.

[Malcolm McDowell]

One of the greatest Shakespeare movies you'll ever see.

[Interviewer]

Right.

[Malcolm McDowell]

And is it as good as Olivier's? No, nothing is as good as that. By the way, a story about that, because it's kind of fun. This was told by John Mills, who was a great friend of Larry. We'll call him Larry Olivier. And he was opening first time in Richard iii. And John Mills was organizing the party afterwards, after the first night. And, oh, this is the first performance. Anyway, so John Mills thought, I'll pop in and see sir, you know, before. Just make sure everything's okay, we're okay for the party. He goes in there. Olivier's like this in front of the mirror. And he sees him and he goes, oh, darling, Jesus Christ, don't cancel the party. The party's off. I haven't got a clue how to play this part. This director's useless and he's going into this whole thing. And of course, John Mills, a little first night thing or whatever. Okay, don't worry. Okay, we'll cancel. Well, don't worry. You'll feel better. Don't even worry about it. You know, John Mills said he went out to watch the performance. This was Laurence Olivier spontaneously finding the character of Richard iii. As you watched it, you will never ever see that ever again. Because it happens in rehearsal. Yeah, you never see it. Not when it's found. And he said it was one of the most brilliant things that he'd ever seen.

[Interviewer]

Do you know what he was struggling with?

[Malcolm McDowell]

God knows.

[Interviewer]

Oh, okay. Yeah.

[Malcolm McDowell]

But, you know, he had. You know, he had great times when he just blocked, you know. I mean, it's just well known that he did. And I understand that. And I used to think, there but for the grace of God go I. Because it happened to another brilliant actor who I really liked very much. I was very fond of him. We were sort of friends. Ian Holm, okay, Ian Holm was the best Henry V I ever saw. I was in it moving furniture and had a two lines and. And I used to watch him every performance from the wings. I'd watch Ian when he did the wooing scene with the princess of Princesses of France and the. This. All the great scenes. And I just thought, wow, this. It's one of the great performances. It's funny. So I hadn't seen him for many a long time, and I was walking down Notting Hill Gate and I bumped into him and I went, ian, oh, my God. And he'd known that I'd done if, you know, I was playing tiny parts the last time. So he goes, hey. Oh, Malcolm, God, it's great to see you. So, hey, you know, well done on everything. And what are you working on? I went, oh, I'm doing this thing for this guy called Stanley Kubrick. And he go. And I saw him recoil, and I said, what's up? Did I say something? He goes, no, just be careful of him. I went, why, may I ask? He said, well, that strung me along to do Napoleon for 18 months. And he goes, after 18 months, who was supposed to go and do. And start. I'd had all the fittings and all this and all that. He goes. And suddenly, not a call. I tried to call him many times. The phone was always dead. He said he didn't even have the wherewithal to pick up the phone and say, I'm sorry, I couldn't get the dough. We've had to postpone. And he just cut him off.

[Interviewer]

Wow.

[Malcolm McDowell]

And, of course, having worked with him, I totally understand.

[Interviewer]

Well, the kids call these these days. Ghosted. He got ghosted.

[Malcolm McDowell]

Oh, is that it?

[Interviewer]

Yeah, they call it ghosted. It's like when people suddenly don't return your texts anymore.

[Malcolm McDowell]

Oh, I see.

[Interviewer]

That's very modern with the.

[Malcolm McDowell]

Well, I've heard. I've heard it, but I never knew what it was.

[Interviewer]

It means. It means you don't exist anymore.

[Malcolm McDowell]

Oh, wow.

[Interviewer]

In the digital world sense of the word.

[Malcolm McDowell]

Wow. Do people do that?

[Interviewer]

Oh, yeah, they do it to me. Oh, well, how dare they?

[Malcolm McDowell]

Why would they do it to you?

[Interviewer]

Oh, I'm sure. I'm sure they have good reasons. I mean, people are. People are cruel these days in. In a new way.

[Malcolm McDowell]

Well, people have always been cruel, let's face it.

[Interviewer]

Which if. But I said in a new way. This is what I'm saying. They found a new way to be cruel.

[Malcolm McDowell]

Ah, okay.

[Interviewer]

You see, when you have.

[Malcolm McDowell]

No, I get it, I get it.

[Interviewer]

When you have an instant, constant attention thing with the phone, when it goes cold, it's like. It's almost unfathomable that.

[Malcolm McDowell]

You mean when there's no calls coming in.

[Interviewer]

We grew up in a time when, you know, if you couldn't get to the pay phone, well, you just dealt with it, you know, or you could. The pay phone would be dead or something. You'd have to wait till you got home to call somebody. We got used to those lapses of time in the modern era. A minute is a long time if somebody doesn't respond. Really.

[Malcolm McDowell]

I don't respond right away. I mean, if somebody texts me, I look at it and chew it over. I don't even respond immediately. And I remember one guy sent me this whole thing about something he'd seen that I'd done. And he went into this whole diatribe of why he thought it was great and what I did and what. Which was news to me because I just did it. Right. I wasn't trying to break it down, I just did it. And so at the end of it, I just sent him a thumbs up.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Malcolm McDowell]

And sent it back.

[Interviewer]

And he got me disappointed.

[Malcolm McDowell]

That's all I get. And I thought, well, yeah, that's all you get. I didn't ask for your comments.

[Interviewer]

I once wrote Eric Burdon of the Animals a long letter.

[Malcolm McDowell]

He's my dearest friend, had no idea.

[Interviewer]

So hopefully you'll find last night, oh, God bless him. I wrote him this long thing. I made sure it got to him just through somebody. It was probably an email, but I wrote him a long letter of appreciation as a fellow musician.

[Malcolm McDowell]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

I've also covered one of his songs. And first song I ever learned how to play on guitar was House of the Rising Sun. Because I love the Animals version. And so I think the greatest. He's one of them.

[Malcolm McDowell]

His voice.

[Interviewer]

He's one of the most underappreciated musical artists ever.

[Malcolm McDowell]

Yes.

[Interviewer]

His influence in putting people together and all of it, including working poor and Jimmy and all things. So I run this long Loving thing, which was like, I just want to let you know, as a fellow musician, and here's who I am. And I assume he. Because I covered his music, he had some sense of who I was. And all I got back was, wow, man.

[Malcolm McDowell]

Well, but again. But I'm saying, did you go, oh, that's a bit.

[Interviewer]

It was a bit much.

[Malcolm McDowell]

But from him, a wow man. Knowing him, wow, man. That was.

[Interviewer]

Yeah. Like something out of San Francisco's message. Wow, man. Wow. So I. I stayed on the positive with it. Wow, man.

[Malcolm McDowell]

Well, but please, I'm gonna.

[Interviewer]

Tell me my regards.

[Malcolm McDowell]

How nice. We had fun, and I hope so. But I can tell you from him, he'll give you a bit more than a wow man. Would love it.

[Interviewer]

Yeah. Love to have him sit here and talk to him privately. I just think he's one of the most underappreciated musicians of all time, at least in our. In our modern times.

[Malcolm McDowell]

He was John Lennon's favorite singer.

[Interviewer]

I can see one wonder why.

[Malcolm McDowell]

And he is the eggman. You know that.

[Interviewer]

I did not know that. I thought I knew all my Beatles lore. Yeah. Let's get back to you for a second, Gus.

[Malcolm McDowell]

Okay.

[Interviewer]

Because I think, obviously most people run to the brightest side of the room, which is Clockwork Orange, and it's easy to talk about it.

[Malcolm McDowell]

Well, we were talking about if.

[Interviewer]

That's why I'm saying I want to talk about if, because I think if is just as important because it's one of those seminal sort of moments in time that, like, sort of unleashes the energy that sets up all these other things.

[Malcolm McDowell]

And.

[Interviewer]

And of course. And you tell me, because you were there, Kubrick sees you in if. And basically he's like, there it is. And he just basically transplants that you and that guy into the.

[Malcolm McDowell]

And a lot of the film, by the way, was definitely inspired by Lindsay Anderson's if.

[Interviewer]

Okay, start here. How did Lindsay feel about that inter. Interpolation.

[Malcolm McDowell]

Okay. I'll tell you what happened. He. He saw it in New York because he was there getting the money for. Oh, lucky man.

[Interviewer]

Sure.

[Malcolm McDowell]

And so, of course, a lot of talk about Clockwork Orange. And Lindsay had heard a lot about it. And he'd also given me the key to playing the part, but that's another story. But so I got a telegram which said, dear Mark, saw Clockwork Saw. Not my cup of tea. But you were brilliant. Now, I knew that, of course, he could never say another director was brilliant. It would have been like pulling teeth. Also, they were so different in Human Terms that Lindsay was, you know, a people person. He was. He loved artists, he loved actors. He actually loved actors. A director that loved actors is a rare thing indeed. And. And sits with them and talk to them and cajole them.

[Interviewer]

Did you. I mean, I. I saw the. The thing that you did. I don't know how to quantify it. I mean, it was a documentary, but it was also kind of a one man show. Talking about your relationship.

[Malcolm McDowell]

It was my love letter to him.

[Interviewer]

You're beautiful. Fantastic. I mean, I wish somebody would do that for me some days.

[Malcolm McDowell]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

So.

[Malcolm McDowell]

Well, somebody said, why didn't you do it for Stanley? And I said, because there's nothing there, really. There's nothing poetic about Stanley. I mean, yes, he's a genius, if you want to talk about, you know, lighting and microphones and all that. But on the human side, to play that would only last 20 minutes.

[Interviewer]

Yeah. So that's kind of why I wanted to talk about if. Because if is the key to this. I don't. I'm not a filmmaker, but to me, if provided Stanley Kubrick with the key of what he needed to make Clockwork Orange. Why it was so successful.

[Malcolm McDowell]

Well, after he passed away, I was asked to go with Christiana, his widow, to Australia to open this museum event of Kubrick's movies and life.

[Interviewer]

Okay.

[Malcolm McDowell]

And I said, I'd be happy to do that. Of course I'll go. And we went out together and I saw a lot of her for the week that we were there. And I was doing, you know, Q and A things and I didn't really. Somebody asked me how I got to be cast. And I went, oh, I think he saw if. That was all I knew. And so Christiana said, oh, Malcolm, no. What happened was the film was the red hot thing in London. Everybody was talking about if. And Stanley had a projectionist on 247 standby, got paramount to bring out the reels of film to watch it. And they were all there watching it at the house. She goes, you made your first entrance. Stanley hit the intercom and said, relace that. Let's see that again. Four times. After the fourth time, and I'm shaving my moustache off when I've grown it in the holidays, you know, back to college, school, this, oppression, this. And. And Stanley looked at his wife and said, we found our Alex.

[Interviewer]

Wow.

[Malcolm McDowell]

Yeah, she told me. I was quite moved, actually. I was like. And of course, an actor would never know that, you know. So all I got was, this director wants to meet you. And I went well, I'm shooting. He goes, yeah, you can go in your lunch hour. I went, oh, well, luckily, the film I was shooting was in Elstree, and he lived next. He lived there, Boreham Wood, which is quite a way outside London on North London. And so I went to see him in my lunch hour and he took me into a small little study that had a TV and a sofa, and that was about it. And we chatted and I thought, wow, what an interesting guy. You know, he had these amazingly black, intelligent eyes that were kind of mesmerizing, actually. And I told him, you know, I'm doing this film with Brian Forbes and blah, blah, blah. He goes, oh, yes, I know Brian. I mean, he is a very nice guy. And we're having fun. And. And so I went and, ooh, Stanley, I have actually gotta be back because I'm first up after lunch. And I stood up and he just looked at me and I said, was there anything special that you wanted to see me about? And he said, well, yeah, have you heard of this book? I went, which book? And it was. I could see him struggling. He didn't really. He was in two minds whether he was going to tell me what the title was. Well, what is it? He said, Clockwork Orange. I went, doesn't ring a bell. He went, really? It's a real cult thing. I went, well, I don't know. It's not my cult. Then. I don't know. I've never heard. He goes, well. He goes, look, here's the book. I want you to read it and call me. I went, okay, okay, will do. You know I'm shooting a film, right? He goes, yeah, okay. So I went, thank you very much. And I see you. So I go back, of course I have to. I can't read it right away. I'm learning lines and stuff. So then I start on it and thought, God, this is a tough read. What the hell does all this mean? And I'm looking at the back and the glossary and, you know. Yeah. Anyway, I struggled through the first read and I thought, there's no way you can make a film. Then I thought, I better read it again. Now, the next time was a lot easier. And I thought to myself, oh, God, this is extraordinary. And I thought, I better read it one more time because he's going to grill me or something. I read it again and I knew that it was one of the great parts. So I picked up the phone. Now a week had gone by, okay. I said, stanley? He went, yes. I said, it's Malcolm, look, I've read the book. He went, oh, I thought you would have called days ago. And I said, yes, no, no, no. It's just I wanted to really read it very thoroughly. And I read it three times. He went, oh, what do you think? I went, well, I think it's remarkable. And now having heard this story from Ian Holm.

[Interviewer]

Right, so you knew this.

[Malcolm McDowell]

Then I said, so, Stanley, are you offering me the part? And he did, you know, it was the part. Meaning, like, well, there's only one part.

[Interviewer]

Okay, but I'm just saying that you felt that. Yeah, yeah, okay.

[Malcolm McDowell]

I said, are you offering me the pot? There was silence.

[Interviewer]

It's funny because. Sorry to interrupt, but yeah, it's almost funny because, like, the way you're portraying, it's almost like a scene from the movie.

[Malcolm McDowell]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

You know what I mean? Well, life imitates art.

[Malcolm McDowell]

Yeah, absolutely. So there was silence and I thought, well, I'm going to wait this one out. And he said, yes. That low. Yes. And when I got to know him, I realized that. That for him to say that was pulling teeth. He would never say, you've got the part, because he'd be terrified I'd use it against him in the negotiation.

[Interviewer]

Yeah, it was a control.

[Malcolm McDowell]

But of course, I was a naive kid. I did it for. And then he goes, he called me. I said, yes, I'll do it, but I want to meet you. You'll have to come to my house. Not knowing the guy never leaves his house. I had no idea. So I lived in Kensington, Notting Hill, Kensington, at the end of a cul de sac. And by the time he's supposed to be there, I'm looking out of my window up the street because that was the very end. I see a Mercedes followed by a range, a Land Rover, a white Land Rover. It's the one they used in the thing with the police are in it. That one drive up and I see this guy get out and he. They're looking around. I open the door and I went, are you looking for me?

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Malcolm McDowell]

I went, stanley. He went, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. He comes into my. I had this incredible space. He looks at it and he goes, wow, we could use the cat lady here. We could shoot it. I went, nah, not in my house. The first thing he said, yeah, yeah. So anyway, that. We talked about it a little bit, I guess, and. And that's how it all started, the journey. And he did the journey with Stanley was he did all the directing of me before we ever turned the camera.

[Interviewer]

Okay.

[Malcolm McDowell]

He got to know me, my sense of humor, my sensibilities. Before we started shooting. And then when we started shooting, I remember I said, what do you want me to do? I mean, we've talked about this. We've talked about that. Everything else. You know, where you're going to get these lights from? From Germany and where going to get this. I said, but I'm playing the guy.

[Interviewer]

I, I, I need more information.

[Malcolm McDowell]

Who is this guy? He goes, that's why I hired you. And walked off. I went, oh, nice. I remember saying to him once, I know why you love Peter Sellers so much. Because he'd just do four or five different little things and you and he'd go, pick one, Pick one, You know.

[Interviewer]

Yeah, I saw a reference and I think it was in your, in your love letter to, to Lindsay. This idea of the surrealist, the goddess and the influence. Did was that coming from you or did I read that somewhere? But it was, it's the idea of that there was this movement afoot of cultural subversion. And obviously that flows in the clockwork. But going back to if for a second. Were you aware of this kind of movement around you?

[Malcolm McDowell]

No, you know, really, I'm just a very instinctive kind of actor. Was not trained. I didn't go to rada. Oh, I went in for this funny little things at Lambda. But I never actually had a teacher except this old lady in Liverpool who's very charming. But I went to her simply to listen to her talk. Talk about her experiences as a silent movie star. Okay, do you remember who it was? Yes. Mrs. Harold Ackley.

[Interviewer]

Okay.

[Malcolm McDowell]

She had a studio in the Crane building. Way later, 30 years later, I found myself maybe 20 years. I found myself at a dinner party sitting next to Rita Tushingham, who I adored. And she was a big star. You know, she'd done the Taste of Honey. And she was what they call at the forefront of the kitchen sink movies in England in the 60s. And she was fantastic. She did Sheila Delaney was the writer and really amazing writer. Anyway, I was talking to Rita and we were talking and I said, oh, I suppose you went to one of those posh, you know, acting academies or something. And she went, well, if you call Mrs. Ackley. I went, what? You went to Mrs. Harold Ackley? She went, yes, you too? I went, oh, my God. I've never known anyone else go to. So we were sort of jumping up and down laughing. Because of course, she did know. She did. No coaching at all, except she'd say, when you sit down, Malcolm, you know, in the Second act, you'll be sitting on the sofa, having a cup of tea, make sure the pinky is up. And I go, thank you so much. I'll make sure the pinky's up.

[Interviewer]

Yeah. The reason I was poking around about your awareness of the influence of the statism or surrealism in the filmmaking of the time, and obviously was in counterculture with music as well, is the Times often times pick people, in my parlance, out of a lineup. And I feel like the Times picked you because you were the perfect embodiment of something that they were unconsciously looking for.

[Malcolm McDowell]

Yes.

[Interviewer]

Did you feel that?

[Malcolm McDowell]

I know just the look, my physical look was kind of exactly what they were waiting for. Did I feel it? No. I mean, you don't feel your face.

[Interviewer]

But I think it goes beyond that. I think it goes into your. I mean, it's always hard because actors are really skilled at convincing us of something that's not real. Right. That's why they're actors.

[Malcolm McDowell]

Yeah, of course.

[Interviewer]

But with you, there was always a sense, and I have a very strong memory of seeing you in Clockwork Orange when I was 10 years old. If you felt like that guy. No, but I'm saying to me, watching to you.

[Malcolm McDowell]

Yeah, but I was acting that guy.

[Interviewer]

Right.

[Malcolm McDowell]

What I'm saying is, of course I loved that guy. I mean, I absolutely adored and loved Alex without a question. And I wanted to make sure that the audience loved him.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Malcolm McDowell]

And that's why the sort of liberal press kind of attacked Stanley. Well, the New York Times had this huge piece calling him a fascist.

[Interviewer]

Right.

[Malcolm McDowell]

Because he'd made this immoral man into somebody.

[Interviewer]

That immoral man was you.

[Malcolm McDowell]

Yes, yes.

[Interviewer]

Just to illustrate the point slightly differently.

[Malcolm McDowell]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

It's like. Let's talk music for a second. Back to Eric Burton. Okay. To me, as a musician, Eric Burton is the real deal.

[Malcolm McDowell]

Totally and utterly.

[Interviewer]

He is the real deal. Like up out of the street, and he is the real deal. He may not be the prettiest.

[Malcolm McDowell]

He's been playing those clubs in Newcastle when he was 14.

[Interviewer]

Right. Okay. Now, John Lennon, okay, talented in a completely different set of ways, is becomes a sort of a form of avatar. He sort of represents something of the age, but he's also. He's also talented enough to kind of go, oh, you want me to be this guy? Or you want. And. And that's why the Beatles, and him in particular, morph so quickly over five, six years. Yeah. The beards and the thing. It's like, who are you?

[Malcolm McDowell]

Yeah, yeah.

[Interviewer]

Eric Burdon can't Not. Not be Eric Burton.

[Malcolm McDowell]

No.

[Interviewer]

John Lennon. With we. When we think of John Lennon, it's really a composite of about 15 different John Lennons.

[Malcolm McDowell]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

And that's not to take anything away from John Lennon. You have to be very skilled.

[Malcolm McDowell]

John. John was but genius of the age, you know.

[Interviewer]

I mean, what I'm saying is that I feel like for. And I wasn't there. I was born in six.

[Malcolm McDowell]

I was there. I saw them as the Silver Beatles. You know that, right?

[Interviewer]

I did not know that. Oh, tell me. Well, I love me Beatles.

[Malcolm McDowell]

You do? Well, I'm from Liverpool, so I used to go to this club called the Gaslight. And then the, you know, there was a few. The Pink Ellie, the Gaslight, De Gas, as we called it. Degas. You're going to Degas tonight? Yeah. Okay, well, I'm going to the Cavern. Who's on? Oh, it's Silver Beetles. Oh, okay.

[Interviewer]

So you saw him with Pete Best then?

[Malcolm McDowell]

Yeah. I didn't know that. Yeah, but. So I had a girlfriend, actually, who took me because she said this band are great when. Okay.

[Interviewer]

Did you think they were great when you saw them?

[Malcolm McDowell]

Yes. Did I think they were going to be the next. The greatest thing since Mozart? No, of course not.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Malcolm McDowell]

Did I like them? They were very together for. I mean, for a little band, you know, in a tiny. I mean, the Cavern was tiny.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Malcolm McDowell]

I mean. And you know all that.

[Interviewer]

The walls sweating.

[Malcolm McDowell]

Yes. You'd stomp as the Liverpool stomp was. You'd hop from one foot to the other. That was the dance. Because there was no other room for anything else. But they did Chuck Berry and in the Liverpool way, you know, they were amazing. The energy, the. And, you know, and you were drawn. I mean, the stage was only this high.

[Interviewer]

Sure.

[Malcolm McDowell]

So it was like at the end and you were drawn. I was drawn to John because he had a kind of dangerous curve of the lip. He was dangerous. Paul was beautiful and exquisite.

[Interviewer]

Yeah. So to go back to my relentless analogy, you represented somehow on film that danger.

[Malcolm McDowell]

Yes.

[Interviewer]

So as someone who stood in a very rare moment of white hot zeitgeist.

[Malcolm McDowell]

Oh. I mean, hey, how lucky was I?

[Interviewer]

Yeah. Did you feel pressure to become. Become more of that? Did it become a typecasting thing?

[Malcolm McDowell]

No. Well, I. I refused to be typecast as much as I could be. So, you know that. I can't tell you how many knockoffs of Clockwork Orange I was offered in the next five years.

[Interviewer]

I can only imagine.

[Malcolm McDowell]

But I just went, no, no, no, it's over. Sorry.

[Interviewer]

Please finish.

[Malcolm McDowell]

No, no, that's it.

[Interviewer]

Had you written oh, Lucky man before Clockwork Orange became a hit?

[Malcolm McDowell]

Yes.

[Interviewer]

Okay.

[Malcolm McDowell]

It was going on during the shooting of Clockwork.

[Interviewer]

Okay.

[Malcolm McDowell]

And we'd go round to see Lindsay, you know. You know, and, and, and the only reason that I started writing this thing was because I just wanted to get to work with Lindsay Anderson again, who I considered to be, you know, just absolutely a genius. I mean, not that I knew any geniuses, you know, but I'd worked with Peter hall at the Royal Shakespeare Company and all those guys, but they weren't the real deal. They weren't. They were posers. Lindsay Anderson, this Oxford educated man who was. He was a very great man. It was like working for an Oxford don. And he would be so honest and so interesting.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Malcolm McDowell]

In the talks one had and, and about it, and, you know, and he cajoled, I suppose, without me knowing it. And he'd say things like, crazy things, like, he'd go, of course, Malcolm, you know, you're a very Brechtian actor. And I'd say, oh, yes, well, I'd be known. Of course, I'm known as the Brechtian actor. I go, and what does that mean? He goes, well, it means that you will let the audience know that you're acting, but they'll. You're going to make them believe you anyway. And I thought, wow, what a thing to say.

[Interviewer]

Okay, so back to me at 10 years old, watching Clockwork Orange. Somewhere there was a sort of connectivity there that's rare in my mind. I usually connect it more to music because music is so rooted in authenticity or the appearance of authenticity, where in Clockwork Orange it's this completely. It's so out, out, out there. But somehow you represented something that felt kind of pure in the center of it.

[Malcolm McDowell]

Well, it's really. What. Because, you know, he'd put the film to the side. He couldn't find anyone to play the part, so Stanley had discarded it.

[Interviewer]

Ah.

[Malcolm McDowell]

And that's why he went on to Napoleon, by the way, the famous movie he never made. The famous movie he never made. Yep. And so interesting. Yeah. That. Well, you know, if, to me was. I mean, you know, I was just playing small parts, went to meet this great man, and we got on very well because there was no bull from me. I'm from the north of England, fairly plain speaker, and like to just say what's on my mind, you know, without being rude, of course.

[Interviewer]

And.

[Malcolm McDowell]

And we gelled. But of course, it's a long way from getting the part, you know.

[Interviewer]

Sure.

[Malcolm McDowell]

And I don't you know what happened because you saw my one man show. So.

[Interviewer]

Yeah, yeah, I'm curious.

[Malcolm McDowell]

There was electricity in the air, put it that way.

[Interviewer]

Do you think Lindsay saw that zeitgeist in you? And I'm not trying to oversell it, you know, what I'm saying is, like, certain people. No, he did, okay, great.

[Malcolm McDowell]

Please eliminate it. Because, you know, it came out later that he'd 98% cast that part somebody else. And when I came in, it was a sort of end of the kind of. They were packing up for lunch actually. And he went, oh. And I was late. I got there and I said, I'm sorry I'm late, Bye, bye. He went, oh, okay, it's okay. I'll be happy to meet him. You know. And he jumped up on the stage and it was. And we had this chat and he said, do you want to read it? I went, I'm so. I'll be honest, I'm so bad at auditions. He goes, ah, yes, well, you've got to work on that. I went, I know, I know I do. You're right. Because that's the first thing. Without a good audition, you're dead in the water. You don't get cast. He goes, that's right. Yeah. So, yeah, he was wonderful. But so I'll tell you because it's an interesting that I didn't really have confidence in myself to know how to play Alex right from the first go. I've been, you know, been working with Kubrick for I think six. At least six months.

[Interviewer]

Really? And you still didn't know?

[Malcolm McDowell]

Yes, six months. And I thought I knew. But when it was only a week to go and then four days, I suddenly went, well, you haven't got a thing in your locker. What the hell are you gonna do? So I called Lindsay and said, lindsay, I hate to do this to you. I know. You know, because Lindsay had. He'd pooh, poohed Kubrick and you know, an American cinema, blah, blah. And of course, I was playing them both off a little bit, a little bit, saying, well, you know, Stanley would never do that. They say, oh, yes, of course, Stanley, Stanley, I'm sure. And then I'd say to Stanley, you know, Lindsay, you know, he went to Oxford. Of course, you know that Stanley. Oh, oh, really? Oh, yeah. What did he study? Oh, I think, you know, the classics.

[Interviewer]

Oh, oh.

[Malcolm McDowell]

Which is true. He did. Yeah. He'd give me a whole lesson on Greek theater. You know that theater comes from the Greeks, Malcolm, don't you. That is where drama started. And I went. I thought it was the Egyptians. No, the Greeks. Anyway, so I asked him if he would read the script. He said, bring it over. And I had to go over to his flat, give him the script. I went out while he was reading it and had a coffee, came back, and the first thing he said was, well, thank God I don't have to direct this. I mean, I know it's not your kind of thing, but look, I just. I don't know what to do with this character. And he said, look, Malcolm, the scene in if where you open the doors to be beaten in the gymnasium, when you're going in to meet the prefects, he goes, you look at them and you smile. He goes, that's how you play it. And I went, oh, my God. Oh, my God.

[Interviewer]

Beautiful piece of advice.

[Malcolm McDowell]

What an incredible piece of direction. What an extraordinary piece of direction. Because that's all it took. Boom. First day, sail through. Even though it was rather painful, there's certain things happened. Boom. On the second day, I forgot all about it because. And I didn't remember this until a year went by and I went, no, wait a minute. It was Lindsay. You would have loved him, actually.

[Interviewer]

Lindsay.

[Malcolm McDowell]

Yeah. And so entertaining. You know, I had to do these talk shows and everything after the movie came out, usually with him. And I'd sit there like an idiot, just listening, because he was so entertaining. I mean, it was just. I've done that a couple of times. The other one who was so entertaining, I would never interrupt him, was Anthony Burgess, who was brilliant and funny, hilarious.

[Interviewer]

But still, at the end of the day, it took you to kind of bring those people together. I guess what I'm after, it's a slightly.

[Malcolm McDowell]

Yeah, what are you after, Billy? Because you've gone around the bush here a bit. And I want to know what. What the hell are you talking about?

[Interviewer]

The image of the poster image of Clockwork Orange.

[Malcolm McDowell]

Yes.

[Interviewer]

You know, the famous image of you.

[Malcolm McDowell]

Yes, right.

[Interviewer]

There are. There are few symbols per generation that sort of make the cut.

[Malcolm McDowell]

Yes.

[Interviewer]

And that's one of them.

[Malcolm McDowell]

Yes.

[Interviewer]

And, you know, and I think what makes it interesting, and maybe I'm speaking as an alternative artist, because alternative artists have to kind of figure out how to go around the system that exists.

[Malcolm McDowell]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

You know, and maybe it's particularly American, you know, we don't have a. We have traditions, but they tend to be. They tend to exclude people like me.

[Malcolm McDowell]

Let me just tell you very simply what that was.

[Interviewer]

Okay, please.

[Malcolm McDowell]

So there was a scene when I come back and turn lovely, lovely Ludwig van on with a tiny little cassette. And it booms. And, you know, Alex in his room has got these great speakers. And you hear. And I'm taking my boots off, and suddenly the camera comes into this. And I went in, he went, make some. What are you gonna do? And I went, I don't know. Let's play the music and I'll see. And it was a sort of.

[Interviewer]

An.

[Malcolm McDowell]

Intensity, like a possession. I don't know what it was. And he was laughing so hard, he went, oh, that's it. That's it. That's great. Your eyes went. I went, what did he. So when we came to do the very first shot of the movie, which was a track with what's her name? Lens, zoom lens. So it was tracking and zooming. So it started here and went back. And when it was there, because I'd been drinking milk that was doped, I went into. Oh, I see, the trance. Alex's little trance, I called it. And it became the Look. And then I heard, you know, Jack did it in the Shining. It's absolutely bull, by the way, that. Not what Jack did.

[Interviewer]

Never heard that story.

[Malcolm McDowell]

But no, well. Oh, that's the cubric like thing.

[Interviewer]

Oh, I see.

[Malcolm McDowell]

But. But it's not. It's not. It's just maybe there was a shot of him looking crazed and it was similar, but it's nothing to do with.

[Interviewer]

Sure.

[Malcolm McDowell]

And so the whole of the end, you know, when he's possessed with the music. It's the music, the music. That's what it's all about.

[Interviewer]

Okay. Yeah.

[Malcolm McDowell]

And here's the great dichotomy, is you've got this thug who loves classical music.

[Interviewer]

Well, I always say. My joke, I always make is, Hitler loved dogs.

[Malcolm McDowell]

Yeah. Well, he wasn't quite as bad as Hitler, but he did love dogs. You're right. But did dogs love him?

[Interviewer]

I just. The reason I harp on about it is if you go across the annals of, say, the 20th century and now we're in the 21st, there are so few people who stand at a unique crossing of history between cultural. The cultural moment and the social moment.

[Malcolm McDowell]

Yes.

[Interviewer]

And you became the face in this one particular moment. But it's so rare that it lines up like that. So in my mind, and it's just my only little movie that I play, there's Clockwork Orange playing on a screen somewhere. And I can see the Beatles sitting there and John Lennon going, I want some of that. John Bottom. The great drummer Led Zeppelin decided he was gonna dress like a Droog. You know what I mean?

[Malcolm McDowell]

So did. So did Davy Jones. David Bowie was, you know, Ziggy and all that.

[Interviewer]

Right. It all flows from this singular moment. We have the. We have the luxury of looking back and saying, like. I was trying to explain to my son, who's nine years old. Yeah. About Duchamp in the. In the urinal.

[Malcolm McDowell]

Oh, yeah.

[Interviewer]

Is it Duchamp or. I can't. You know what the famous word is? Just the urinal.

[Malcolm McDowell]

Yeah, yeah.

[Interviewer]

To crucify me. It's not. If it's not Duchamp. But my son was like, why would a urinal be art? And I go. But that was the point.

[Malcolm McDowell]

Yeah, sure.

[Interviewer]

He broke something. You can never unbreak it.

[Malcolm McDowell]

Right, right, right. So you're right. So it is lightning in a bottle. It was the physical look, the psychological attitude. All came together with these extraordinary roles of absolute defiance. Mick was a pure revolutionary. A pure revolutionary. Nothing to do with Alex at all. Mick, you know, he was actually Lindsay. He wanted to tear it down.

[Interviewer]

I said, so he finally put. That's what I was trying to put together, because Lindsay voicing through you, his interest in you, and he saw something in you. Voices into this other zip code with Kubrick and the insanity of Burgess Book. And it's this weird lightning in a bottle. And we can hold it up like a chrysalis and go, oh, my God. Like, so much came from this thing. But what fascinates me even more is you're the living, representative representation of that moment. And I think the reason it resonates still, especially to artists like myself, is there's something in you that I understand. I don't know you, but that's kind of what I'm after. Where does the. Where does it.

[Malcolm McDowell]

I'm sure it is. I'm sure.

[Interviewer]

Right. Where does the acting end and the sort of this pure spirit begin?

[Malcolm McDowell]

Well, you embody it.

[Interviewer]

That's my point. That's why I belabor it.

[Malcolm McDowell]

So it's not acted. Although, of course it is. As Lindsay said, you tell them you're acting, but you'll make them believe you anyway.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Malcolm McDowell]

But when you're doing it, at least when I'm doing it, it's cooking. You know, I'll tell you, time stands still and you are.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Malcolm McDowell]

So in it.

[Interviewer]

Can I. Can I share something personal?

[Malcolm McDowell]

Yes.

[Interviewer]

I had at least one of those moments in my life when we had our biggest album.

[Malcolm McDowell]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

And so that was 30 years ago. Literally now.

[Malcolm McDowell]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

And I'm not saying you've experienced this, but because so many people continue to be interested in the zeitgeist of that moment. I find myself sitting around going, what was I thinking? And the answer is, I wasn't thinking anything at all.

[Malcolm McDowell]

No, no.

[Interviewer]

It was no different than any other day. So that's where it's complicated, because people like me want to ask people like you, what were you thinking? You're like, I don't know. I was just.

[Malcolm McDowell]

There's no thinking. I mean, it was. We get to work. First thing is, I gotta have a tea.

[Interviewer]

Is there any tea before I do this unmitigated violence?

[Malcolm McDowell]

And then we're gonna do what. What is the scene? Oh, it's me arriving at the jail. Okay.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Malcolm McDowell]

Okay. Well, he goes, well, it's not written. Oh.

[Interviewer]

Oh, it's not written. So he was doing on the fly, so.

[Malcolm McDowell]

Well, there's a guy here who's been to jail. Oh, okay. Hi, nice to meet you. You're out on parole or what's going on? Yeah, no. Okay. It was a while. So we've got a White lion here, and they're really, by the way. And we also have a genius actor, Michael Bates, who was the prison guard. I mean, he was absolutely a Joe Orton actor if ever there was one. I thought he was fantastic. And by the way, Joe Orton. The flavor of Joe Orton is over these things. And I didn't even know Joe Orton. I hadn't even read entertaining Mr. Sloan or Lute or what the butler saw. I had no idea. But I feel more in tune with him, I see about my work. To his work, than anybody else, including Jimmy Cagney, who I worship, who I adore.

[Interviewer]

I just bought. I collect some movie memorabilia. I just bought a late 30s, early 40s Cagney where they would just make a thing of the star for a poster that they could put in a theater.

[Malcolm McDowell]

Oh, yeah.

[Interviewer]

Oh, one sheet or sheet yellow with Cagney, which.

[Malcolm McDowell]

Oh, it's just.

[Interviewer]

It's just a. It's just a personality one.

[Malcolm McDowell]

Oh, okay. I just.

[Interviewer]

I just bought it.

[Malcolm McDowell]

Beautiful. Yeah.

[Interviewer]

I always love how Orson Welles would say, cagney's the best film actor of all time.

[Malcolm McDowell]

I think Spielberg said that. I.

[Interviewer]

Well, he probably stole it from Orson.

[Malcolm McDowell]

Yeah, probably so.

[Interviewer]

We'll get to Orson in a minute, but.

[Malcolm McDowell]

Oh, yeah, I work with him.

[Interviewer]

Do you work with Orson? Well, tell me, tell me.

[Malcolm McDowell]

Well, it was a film by Sir Lou Grade. We fondly called him Sir Low Grade. But he did this film with many, many stars called Voyage of the.

[Interviewer]

Okay.

[Malcolm McDowell]

Directed by a lovely director, Stuart Rosenberg. Who had done Cool Hand Luke.

[Interviewer]

Okay.

[Malcolm McDowell]

A terrific movie. And Paul Newman, one of his great performances.

[Interviewer]

But.

[Malcolm McDowell]

And, you know, Faye Dunaway was in this and. Oh, God, everybody. Max von Sydow and.

[Interviewer]

Great actor, you think?

[Malcolm McDowell]

Great actor, absolutely. And actually a very funny man.

[Interviewer]

Really?

[Malcolm McDowell]

You had no idea he was so funny.

[Interviewer]

I thought.

[Malcolm McDowell]

I thought you one of the. He goes, oh, they're just the films that I do, Mark. And. Yeah. So we were shooting in Barcelona and Stuart Rosenberg said to me, malcolm, you don't have any scenes with Orson. He's here. He's here. You know, awesome palace. Oh, my God. So they're doing a scene with him. He goes, would you like to come to his suite tomorrow morning for breakfast? I went, please. He said, because he's a fan of if. And I went, oh, how wonderful. So I go there, meet the great man. He is.

[Interviewer]

He's huge.

[Malcolm McDowell]

I mean, huge. They had to build a ramp for him to get into the car. Anyway.

[Interviewer]

A true gourmand.

[Malcolm McDowell]

Yeah. So in come the wages with silver salvas full of melon, prosciuttos and cheeses and eggs. And I'm thinking, God, there must be 50 people coming, all for him.

[Interviewer]

Yes. I've read that he would order five, basically. Food for five men.

[Malcolm McDowell]

Yeah. Yeah. So we had a bit of this and a bit of that, a chat, and I realized, wow. He's, of course, you know, was brought up in the radio age and his acting is radioacting. It was really bizarre thought that I had when I was talking to him and I was like, wow, it's really a beautiful voice.

[Interviewer]

I'm sorry. I didn't mean to.

[Malcolm McDowell]

No, no.

[Interviewer]

Are you a fan of his? His, like, Chimes of Midnight?

[Malcolm McDowell]

Of course. Yeah.

[Interviewer]

It's beautiful.

[Malcolm McDowell]

Absolutely.

[Interviewer]

I think, to me, Chimes at Midnight is. Everyone, of course, talks about.

[Malcolm McDowell]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

I think Chimes at Midnight is just a stunning piece of work considering how he shot it on five countries.

[Malcolm McDowell]

Incredible how? Well, sometimes, you know, when you're under that kind of pressure, great art will come, you know.

[Interviewer]

Let me read you this quote from Mr. Kubrick. This is because when it. When it all started to get kind of controversial, the movie got banned in Britain.

[Malcolm McDowell]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

Clockwork.

[Malcolm McDowell]

We didn't get banned.

[Interviewer]

Tell me. Because I.

[Malcolm McDowell]

You know, Kubrick was getting death threats to him and the family about making such a violent movie. He went to Scotland Yard and they said, well, just withdraw the film.

[Interviewer]

I see.

[Malcolm McDowell]

That'll stop all that. And that's what he did. Only in Britain, though, did the English.

[Interviewer]

Press go crazy when that movie came out, I mean, in terms of like, this is going to inspire violence. And did they go just bonkers?

[Malcolm McDowell]

Of course, you know, the, the English.

[Interviewer]

Tabloids I've been the victim of. Cute three times.

[Malcolm McDowell]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

Stanley's quote, a social satire dealing with the question of whether behavioral psychology and psychological conditioning are dangerous new weapons for a totalitarian government to use to impose vast controls on its citizens and turn them into little more than robots.

[Malcolm McDowell]

B.F. skinner, isn't it?

[Interviewer]

Yes, yes. I read B.F. skinner when I was like 12 years old.

[Malcolm McDowell]

Yeah. Oh, you're an egghead, no mistake. Wow, I'm impressed.

[Interviewer]

Thank you. But the reason the quote struck out to me because it's fun to talk about old things. I like to talk about old things too, but. But I think it's interesting that there is a modern parallel now because we're having this big conversation about AI Behavioral modification through the use of social media. And.

[Malcolm McDowell]

Well, isn't. It's. I mean, look, I. You know, I'm doing this show up in Newfoundland called Son of a Critch, with a wonderful producer, actor, writer, Mark Critch. And so I sent him. A friend of mine did this rhyme about. And they said to AI, they said, do a limerick about Malcolm McDowell.

[Interviewer]

Okay.

[Malcolm McDowell]

This incredible limerick came back mentioning all my movies, or 20 of them in this incredible piece in three seconds.

[Interviewer]

Yes.

[Malcolm McDowell]

I mean, I was so, as they say, gobsmacked. I sent it to Mark in Newfoundland and I said, look at this. Your days are numbered, my friend. Writers are going to be over. He sent back another limerick about me that was even better. And I went, oh, my God. Touche.

[Interviewer]

And he wrote the limerick back and.

[Malcolm McDowell]

He did it himself. Yeah. And he said, no, no problem.

[Interviewer]

We'll be all right. Yeah. One other thing. I thought this was interesting. Critic Leslie Hallowell.

[Malcolm McDowell]

Oh, yeah.

[Interviewer]

Said a repulsive film in which intellectuals have found acres of social and political meaning. The average judgment is likely to remain that it is a pretentious and nasty rubbish for sick minds who do not mind jazzed up images and incoherent sound.

[Malcolm McDowell]

Poor man. Poor sweetheart. Darling, Kiss my ass.

[Interviewer]

My last thing on Clockwork. I think it's one of the greatest movies of all time.

[Malcolm McDowell]

I mean, well, people are still talking about it, still seeing it 50 odd years.

[Interviewer]

What I found, the reason I started this little thing here is, is I still see where the critical class has a hard time giving the movie its prop, which is kind of funny.

[Malcolm McDowell]

Yes, I. I understand that because I think we've touched on it slightly, is that there is an immoral man who is made out to be the hero of the film. That is, by the way, never been done before in a studio movie.

[Interviewer]

But aren't we living that now?

[Malcolm McDowell]

I would.

[Interviewer]

We're living. We're living people being celebrated.

[Malcolm McDowell]

Yeah, totally. And we're having.

[Interviewer]

And we're having.

[Malcolm McDowell]

And other things.

[Interviewer]

And we're having rational discussions about people doing awful things.

[Malcolm McDowell]

Yeah, I know.

[Interviewer]

Like when the moral needle moves to the point where we have to decide as a culture, a Western culture, whether or not this act of horrific violence is in essence, justified.

[Malcolm McDowell]

But Halliwell wrote that in 1971.

[Interviewer]

But that's what I'm saying.

[Malcolm McDowell]

Saying he probably wouldn't write that now.

[Interviewer]

No, I think. I think as oftentimes happens when a zeitgeist happens, the old guard continues to defend the way it used to be when young people have already moved on. I mean, that's why personalizing art is the greatest mistake that people make. The famous quote was always, picasso was a hole. Oh, you know, you've ever heard that?

[Malcolm McDowell]

I've. I've always heard that. It took Picasso 50 years to learn how to draw a straight line. And I always think that is a great quote, actually.

[Interviewer]

But the riff on Picasso as an. Is that we have to personalize the thing that the art engenders. Whatever. Clockwork, for example, using that as the topic of conversation unleashed into the culture, is it responsible for what it pointed was coming or is it responsible for what it engendered? And I think now, looking back, the criticism of Clockwork seemed trite compared to what followed.

[Malcolm McDowell]

I mean, listen, it was supposed to be futuristic, but of course it wasn't. I mean, because we'd seen this Pavlovian thing going on in. In American prisons, actually. This aversion therapy.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Malcolm McDowell]

So, I mean, it wasn't futuristic at all. It was happening and gangs were. Hello. Gangs have been going around. Look at west side Story singing about it. Yeah. And drugs. Hello. I mean, so we've seen all this before. It's just that Burgess. You know, nobody really gives Burgess the credit that he honestly deserves. He's up there with Stanley Kubrick. Absolutely. In what he delivered. I mean, without his stuff, well, there's nothing. I mean, Stanley wasn't really a writer anyway, even though he claims he did the screenplay. But.

[Interviewer]

So coming off of this massive moment, you know, the movie made gobs of money and all that type of stuff.

[Malcolm McDowell]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

This is always my fantasy, but give me your version. You know, you're sitting in the room with the agent, you know, you're, you're, you're. You're coming off a big movie. Like, what do you want to do? What do they want you to do? But.

[Malcolm McDowell]

I'll tell you that I was very aware that I would be manipulated to do things that I did not want to do, and I did refuse to do them. I was offered a movie, so much money to do a love story with an older actress. Actually, I was a great fan of hers, but the script sucked. So pass.

[Interviewer]

What?

[Malcolm McDowell]

All this money. How can you. My agents were absolutely, you know, beside themselves. And then, you know, came to Hollywood and met the guys running the studio, and they, you know, were very complimentary, blah, blah, blah. But, you know, then they offered me Lost Horizon. Lost Horizon. I'd just done Clockwork Orange. I mean, I couldn't do that. So I got straight into oh, Lucky Man. And I'm very fond of oh, Lucky Man. I love it. Alan Price's scores. Absolutely. Completely undersold and quite brilliant. And the lyrics, actually are really superb.

[Interviewer]

I'm sad to say I haven't seen it, but doing all this research on you.

[Malcolm McDowell]

Have you never seen it?

[Interviewer]

No, I want to see it now.

[Malcolm McDowell]

Oh, well, my God. If you like. If this is the follow up.

[Interviewer]

Yeah. No, I know that now.

[Malcolm McDowell]

If you have a friend on whom you think you can rely, you are a lucky man. If you have a reason to live on and not to die, you are a lucky man. Teachers and scholars and something don't know it anyway. It's Alan. Alan did a brilliant job. It's great.

[Interviewer]

I don't want to put words in your mouth, so please correct me, but now that you're in this deeper water of success and expectation and.

[Malcolm McDowell]

Darling, I'm 82.

[Interviewer]

No, not now. I'm not.

[Malcolm McDowell]

Oh. And then.

[Interviewer]

No, I've just. I find it fascinating what people do under extreme circumstances.

[Malcolm McDowell]

Let me tell you, I withdrew, okay?

[Interviewer]

That's what I was after.

[Malcolm McDowell]

Because I knew that it would eat me up personally. Yes.

[Interviewer]

Were you not strong enough or you just didn't want it?

[Malcolm McDowell]

I wanted it on my terms. And I thought if I play that game, I'm dead.

[Interviewer]

So the fact that you're still.

[Malcolm McDowell]

Go back to the theater. Do a play. Go do a play. Which is what I did. Do your own film with the man you really love, Lindsay, and admire. Do that. And, you know. Okay. It wasn't the success of if still an incredible film, and today it's fated. You know, if is considered one of the great British films made.

[Interviewer]

Well, it strikes me as a rancon Tour myself. I think you made the right decision because you're still here. A lot of people in your position, they tend to fall off a cliff at some point because they can't sustain that.

[Malcolm McDowell]

Well, I kind of fell off the cliff, but I.

[Interviewer]

But you fell off the cliff, but you kind of chose to fall off that cliff. Does it make sense?

[Malcolm McDowell]

Yes.

[Interviewer]

Is that fair?

[Malcolm McDowell]

Yeah, I did. So, yes.

[Interviewer]

I mean, it was interesting just to play along with you. I mean, here's a note that I have on my note card. Many actors fizzled out, but he persists. Why?

[Malcolm McDowell]

Ah, well, because I'm English.

[Interviewer]

Is that it?

[Malcolm McDowell]

And no, I'm English and I was brought up in the theater.

[Interviewer]

So you have that.

[Malcolm McDowell]

So listen, you always think that's your last part. Nobody's ever gonna ask you again. You know, you're lucky to be working. And I always sit on sets and even today, to a certain extent look around and go, oh, my God, this is so much fun. Are they paying me? I am the luckiest person like you, I'm sure. I know you're a musician and you must love it.

[Interviewer]

I do.

[Malcolm McDowell]

You just don't love the travel. That's.

[Interviewer]

But, you know, there's lots of things I don't love. Okay. Yeah, let's just have a little fun. You take this however you like. And thank you for indulging me. I really do appreciate it. In 1979, you make two around that area.

[Malcolm McDowell]

Oh, I know this story well. Yes. No, please.

[Interviewer]

Over here we have Caligula.

[Malcolm McDowell]

Yes.

[Interviewer]

And over here we have Time After Time.

[Malcolm McDowell]

So I Reading the New York Times best and worst lists. I have one film on each.

[Interviewer]

Well, I'm happy to say that I saw Time After Time when it came out in the theater with my mother.

[Malcolm McDowell]

Ah, yes.

[Interviewer]

You go to movies about, you know, once a month. And so I saw it.

[Malcolm McDowell]

Finally, I made. When it came out, finally I made a movie that my mother could go see.

[Interviewer]

Yeah. So walk me walk. Because this is a. This is. This is an odd period of your life. You're making this. This famous debauched disaster.

[Malcolm McDowell]

I did that first. It was.

[Interviewer]

Well, if you want to start, you go dark to light.

[Malcolm McDowell]

Okay. I was called by Govidel, a man who's of a certain literary reputation.

[Interviewer]

Sure.

[Malcolm McDowell]

And he. He says, I want to have lunch with you. I've got something I want to urgently talk to you about. I am doing my. Gore Vidal's Caligula. That was the title. I went, Gore Vidal's Caligula. Okay, where do I come in? Are you Playing the bar?

[Interviewer]

No, no, but this is my.

[Malcolm McDowell]

Yeah, I said, okay, okay, let me read it. I read it. It was awful. Actually, to be honest, it wasn't great. But he promised he'd do rewrites and we'd get into it.

[Interviewer]

What'd you think of him, just personally?

[Malcolm McDowell]

Oh, I thought he was entertaining beyond belief. I adored him, actually. I mean, look, you know, I wasn't having an affair with him and I had. There was a big, long. You know, there was a moat between us. But I enjoyed his company. He was lacerating who he'd go after, you know, God Almighty. You should be on the other end of it. But he, you know, he like. I mean, he was a fun guy. He'd call me up and go, malcolm, do you have a tie? I go, well, I think I got one somewhere. He goes, wear it. I'll pick you up at 6:00'.

[Interviewer]

Clock.

[Malcolm McDowell]

Well, where are we? I'll pick you up at 6 o'. Clock. Click. 6 o'.

[Interviewer]

Clock.

[Malcolm McDowell]

Got my tie on, jacket, comes in a cab. I get in. Where are we going? You'll see. Come up to Kensington Palace. We stop by the friendly Bobby Pre, 9 11. And he goes, yes, come on in. Her Royal Highness is waiting for you. Princess Margaret, the Queen's sister. So there we are hanging out with Princess Margaret, who then? And we go to dinner and she sits next to me and she looks at me and goes, my husband tells me you've made a movie about. And I went, really? Which movie would you. Oh, there is a. Yes, mom, there is. I've been told to call her Mom. Yes, mom is in it, but it's not about. It really is.

[Interviewer]

Sorry to laugh. This is too good.

[Malcolm McDowell]

She go smoking all the time. Good. My God. So in the middle of this, I'm going, oh, my God, this is so dreary. She's going to start talking about dogs next or horses or something. Anyway, he comes over and he goes, I think Princess M is expecting you, Malcolm, to go back tonight. And I went, go, I can't. I can't do it. I went, it's the Queen's sister. You don't get it. You know, I can't. He goes, well, it would be nice. He goes, just close your eyes and think of England. And off he went. So I literally was moming, momming. Mommy got up, walked out, got my jacket, went out into the street, called a cabin, just split. I got a call the next day going, well, where did you go? We were looking all over for you. Princess M was very disappointed yeah.

[Interviewer]

Did you know that Orson Welles was offered $1 million to play in Caligula? Did you know that?

[Malcolm McDowell]

To play Caligula?

[Interviewer]

No, to be in Caligula.

[Malcolm McDowell]

Wow, that would have been fabulous.

[Interviewer]

I love this.

[Malcolm McDowell]

But Petro too, they got pizza and they got deer.

[Interviewer]

Did you know when you were making this thing that it was a penultimate disaster?

[Malcolm McDowell]

No.

[Interviewer]

And by the way, I know they've recut it.

[Malcolm McDowell]

No, no. Let me tell you.

[Interviewer]

Okay, Please.

[Malcolm McDowell]

Yes, It's a new film. It is amazing.

[Interviewer]

Okay. I have to see it now.

[Malcolm McDowell]

You do?

[Interviewer]

Because I saw that you endorsed this new.

[Malcolm McDowell]

I loathe Caligula. I loathe Guccione. I thought he was an evil man. I really did loathe him. He was just so horrible. The way he treated these girls, these pets, was disgusting. And it really pissed me off. But, you know, look, I was working for him, you know, he just put a load of in the movie, used us, the main actors, to sell it with the. Okay, you know, all right. It's not the end of the world, you know, all right. Of course, as far as I was concerned, I almost had a nervous breakdown because it so upset me and I put so much into that performance.

[Interviewer]

So now that you. Now that this re.

[Malcolm McDowell]

Well, it's the movie I thought I made.

[Interviewer]

And you feel good. Now that you see that I feel.

[Malcolm McDowell]

Beyond good, I feel completely vindicated. For instance, Helen Mirren. Helen's performance in the Guccioni movie was 17 minutes in this one. It's an hour.

[Interviewer]

Okay. She had a great, the great quote, which was. It's an unmistakable mix of art and genitals.

[Malcolm McDowell]

Yeah, that's Helen.

[Interviewer]

I mean, what a quote.

[Malcolm McDowell]

Yeah. Isn't that a great quote? Yeah. Yeah.

[Interviewer]

So I, I, I am duty bound to see this new because.

[Malcolm McDowell]

Yes. Well, I'm going to. We're going. I'm off to Florence with my Beckett. With my oldest or the oldest of the three. I've got two more, but different. Different. Mom, we're going to Florence and Helen's gonna join me for the first time seeing this movie.

[Interviewer]

Oh, fantastic.

[Malcolm McDowell]

And so we're gonna have. First time they're showing this version in.

[Interviewer]

Italy just to give you a little bit of American feedback. So when I was a kid, we kept hearing about this movie. Now, of course, when you're a young man in America in the 1970s, any hint of. He is utterly fascinating.

[Malcolm McDowell]

Well, you've got Debbie Does Dallas, the Green Door, behind the Green Door.

[Interviewer]

In fact, the first time I ever saw he was Debbie Debs Dallas.

[Malcolm McDowell]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

This kid was a school chum.

[Malcolm McDowell]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

He asked me to stay over.

[Malcolm McDowell]

Oh.

[Interviewer]

And he said they had one of those original Betamaxes, you know, when the machine was. And he says, I got this, and we're in the basement and he. He. He puts on, you know, and it's making noise. There's no way to turn the noise off. And I'm so mortified that we're going to get caught.

[Malcolm McDowell]

Yeah, of course.

[Interviewer]

So I said, isn't there a way to turn the. There was no mute button back in the day. So isn't there a way to turn off the sound? He said, well, no. I said, well, then I can't watch it because I can't risk somebody coming down and catching us. So he said, well, there is a way. He said, if we put it on.

[Malcolm McDowell]

Fast forward, oh, my God, then there's no sound.

[Interviewer]

So the first time I ever saw was Debbie Dos Dallas at like one, one and a half times speed.

[Malcolm McDowell]

He's a bit like Charlie Chaplin. Yes, that's funny.

[Interviewer]

So. So you go out of this, you know, this epic, you know, this controversy.

[Malcolm McDowell]

And then Time After Time, which is.

[Interviewer]

Such a beautiful movie.

[Malcolm McDowell]

I'm reading Time After Time as I'm, you know, somebody's getting your grace, whatever.

[Interviewer]

And.

[Malcolm McDowell]

And that was absolutely weird because Gore wanted me to bugger this guy. Of course he did go to this wedding and make love to the bride and then make love to the groom.

[Interviewer]

Well, of course.

[Malcolm McDowell]

And. And, you know. And that's Caligula, because that's just the way it is or the way it was. And so I went, gore, I'm not comfortable, you know, doing buggery, to be honest. He went, oh, how. That's. Oh, you're such a prude. I went, I'm a prude? Have you ever seen Clockwork Orange? I am not a prude.

[Interviewer]

I just talked to the queen's sister.

[Malcolm McDowell]

I went, anyway, he kept on at this on. And so eventually was shooting, and it was coming up, like, in two weeks. The producer was a lovely man, Franco Rossellini, the uncle of Isabella.

[Interviewer]

Yes.

[Malcolm McDowell]

He went to New York and he comes back and I said, how was New York, Franco? Well, you know, he talked to someone who'd been out of this set, I mean, there for nine months on the set, and he goes, oh, I had a wonderful time. I went to this place, you know, in the meat market. It was. I went, oh, yeah, this club. I think it was the Anvil or something. I went, oh, really? Oh, I've heard of this. Huh.

[Interviewer]

I've heard of this.

[Malcolm McDowell]

Yeah, yeah.

[Interviewer]

Not the story. The. The Anvil.

[Malcolm McDowell]

Wow. Oh, you really. You've been there. So anyway, he goes to the Anvil and he goes, ma, you wouldn't believe it. All these guys on a stage and everybody's fist in the club. I went, what? Are you serious? He goes, how do they. He goes, oh, they had things of Grease and they had just. I went, oh, my God. And I went, that's what I could do. Let's move it to a kitchen and I'll fist the guy. It's way better and quite amusing. And they all looked at me a bit like you did, open mouthed. And I went, yeah, that's it. So we get to the thing, we're there and I say, where's the actor? And they went, they're preparing. I went. And I look over and there he comes. This guy is coming. I said, all these people are around him like he's a heavyweight boxing champion or something. He's getting to the ring. And I'm. Who are all these people? What's going on? And they went, well, you know, there is family. I went, his family? Listen, I'm not. I don't really want to be fist the guy with his family watching. I mean, that's. I mean, can't we do something about that? And I went, wait a minute. Does the guy know what's going on? They went, not yet.

[Interviewer]

Oh.

[Malcolm McDowell]

I went, oh, my God. Well, I'm going to my room. When you've sorted that out, let me know. He was a very good sport, but the one thing that really upset him was after I've done I, Caligula Caesar, in the name of the Senate and the people of Rome, and I had this sort of little posy. Of Little.

[Interviewer]

Yes, I remember. So kind of a garland.

[Malcolm McDowell]

Yeah, A little garland of little roses. I plucked a rose and I popped it like a cherry on the cake. And I walked off. And after much discussion, Tinto, the director, said, malcolm, fantastic. This is very, very good. We have a problem that. Whatever his name. I've forgotten his name. Guido, Whatever. Guido, he's upset. I went, I know it's. It's upsetting. I mean, it is. And he goes, no, okay, it. It's the rose on his. And I went, oh, my God. Let's cut that. Cut it. I. I won't do that. I'm sorry. I. I apologize.

[Interviewer]

What was it about the rose that set him off?

[Malcolm McDowell]

It was just humiliating.

[Interviewer]

Ah.

[Malcolm McDowell]

I mean, it's bad enough, you know, but then to crown it all, probably a Wrong choice of words. But anyway.

[Interviewer]

Two things. I saw something where you were talking about when you were making Time After Time, you ended up at some point, after doing location shots in San Francisco, shooting on the Warner Brothers backlot.

[Malcolm McDowell]

Yes.

[Interviewer]

And having that sense of that history.

[Malcolm McDowell]

Yes.

[Interviewer]

Can you talk a little bit about that? Because I love that stuff. And so.

[Malcolm McDowell]

Well, you know, when they first said, you've been invited to Hollywood, I mean, do you want to go? And I went, do I want to go? I mean, my God, yeah, please. And, you know, getting in the limo from the airport and I'm going to the driver, well, where is Hollywood? I mean, where is it? And he goes, well, this is Beverly Hills. I went, well, it's not the kind of Hollywood I'm thinking of. He goes, well, we'll drive down Hollywood Boulevard. And I'm going, this is it.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Malcolm McDowell]

I was just absolutely amazed how scruffy and ordinary it was. And then my minder, Warner's said, hey, Malcolm, there's a party tonight. You want to go? There'll be a lot of old movie stars. And I went, that's why I'm here. I. I'd love to pay my respects. I mean, you know, it's my childhood. I. I mean, I'm a great fan. I don't care.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Malcolm McDowell]

So we go along, and sure enough.

[Interviewer]

Your mic just popped out. The. The pack might have. Oh, no. Might have sat on a button.

[Malcolm McDowell]

Did I what?

[Interviewer]

The button might have been kind of stuck in with the package.

[Malcolm McDowell]

Oh, well, that won't do. This is a good moment. Keep it in.

[Interviewer]

Yeah, we'll pick. I know exactly where to pick.

[Malcolm McDowell]

I love the whole thing of coming in with the mic. That's very Lindsay Anderson.

[Interviewer]

Oh, is it?

[Malcolm McDowell]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

We'll keep that correct.

[Malcolm McDowell]

Ian.

[Interviewer]

One second. Slow. Sure.

[Malcolm McDowell]

Does it need a new battery? Okay. The aerial's loose.

[Interviewer]

Yeah. Speaking of Brecht. It is.

[Malcolm McDowell]

Yes, exactly.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Malcolm McDowell]

It's some coming on with the post.

[Interviewer]

We're actually not even in the set. We're just.

[Malcolm McDowell]

I love it. Yeah. Okay. I'm just gonna put it down there. So what were we saying?

[Interviewer]

You were going to a party to meet old Hollywood stars.

[Malcolm McDowell]

So I go. And there is Paulette Goddard. Wow. There she is in Earth.

[Interviewer]

Fantastic.

[Malcolm McDowell]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

Wasn't she married to Chaplin at some point?

[Malcolm McDowell]

Yes, exactly. Very good. And then the mind that goes, malcolm, Gene's here. Do you want to meet him? Gene Kelly?

[Interviewer]

Okay.

[Malcolm McDowell]

Oh, And I went, I'd love to meet you.

[Interviewer]

Did he think you ruined his song or.

[Malcolm McDowell]

Well, he cut me dead. He came Over. They tapped him on the back, and he turned around, looked at me.

[Interviewer]

Did he have his toupee on?

[Malcolm McDowell]

Oh, yeah. He looked.

[Interviewer]

He looked like Gene Kelly.

[Malcolm McDowell]

He looked like Gene Kelly. He was very handsome, man. I mean, I guess he was Dancer's body. Yeah. He must have been in his 60s, I guess. I don't know.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Malcolm McDowell]

Anyway, he just cut me dead and walked off.

[Interviewer]

Really?

[Malcolm McDowell]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

Didn't even say hi?

[Malcolm McDowell]

No. And the. The Mindo started to apologize and I went, please don't apologize. I get it. He's pissed. Yeah. I don't blame him. Listen. But I hope one day he'll realize it was in homage of his greatness and the greatness of that film. And the imagery to the world was one of euphoria. When I'm doing those dastardly things, I'm euphoric. That's why it popped into my head when I did an improv. That's why.

[Interviewer]

Yeah. Last thing. It's much easier for me to interview musicians because I know how musicians think, but I don't really know how actors think.

[Malcolm McDowell]

I think it's rather similar.

[Interviewer]

Okay, please tell me.

[Malcolm McDowell]

I've always felt a great comradeship with musicians. In fact, I'm jealous of musicians to a certain extent. My son Beckett is a musician.

[Interviewer]

I heard this. Yes.

[Malcolm McDowell]

And it really. I say this is sort of tongue in cheek, but actually it's sort of true, is that it takes you three minutes to make people laugh, to move them, and then make them cry. It takes me two hours to do the same. And there is something so beautiful in encapsulating in that three or four minutes, you know, a world, a story, an emotion. It's just amazing. And it's.

[Interviewer]

No, please. So. Because I think to flip the script, the musician looks at those images on the screen. The grandeur of that. Obviously, we've tried to emulate it in music videos, but you could never get the emotional scope of a great film.

[Malcolm McDowell]

No. And that's the one thing I have over you guys. But I still. I still. I'm in awe of great performances, great musicians.

[Interviewer]

It's.

[Malcolm McDowell]

I mean, you know, I can listen to a song and instantly cry. Instantly. If I hear John Lennon.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Malcolm McDowell]

You know, I think that's a band. That whole album, to me is like.

[Interviewer]

Oh, yeah, they mean where he kind of came out of the scream therapy. That sort of starkness.

[Malcolm McDowell]

My God.

[Interviewer]

Right. Ah.

[Malcolm McDowell]

That was.

[Interviewer]

Mother. I never had you, but you had. You had me, but I never had you.

[Malcolm McDowell]

Yeah. Mother. Yeah. I think it's. I. And then. Don't Believe. Oh, my God. He goes through the litany of don't believe.

[Interviewer]

Oh, yeah. Don't believe in Beatles.

[Malcolm McDowell]

So beautiful. But I think, to me, he had one of the great rock and roll voices.

[Interviewer]

Did you ever read Jeff Emmerich's book about recording the Beatles?

[Malcolm McDowell]

No.

[Interviewer]

Jeff was the engineer behind.

[Malcolm McDowell]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Is this a.

[Interviewer]

It's like in the last 10 years. I think you're there and everywhere.

[Malcolm McDowell]

Oh, I'll find it.

[Interviewer]

It's really beautifully written. And he's much more favorable. Jeff Emmerich is much more favorable to McCartney as a personality. McCartney was the guy who would stay late. I know it was a chum. And would work on his baseline, all that.

[Malcolm McDowell]

And I love him for that. We all love Paul, you know, but.

[Interviewer]

He said what was so. And I'm using the term loosely. Infuriating about Lennon was he would write a song like A Day in the Life.

[Malcolm McDowell]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

He'd come in with a cold, bad attitude.

[Malcolm McDowell]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

He'd sit down and sing the song four times and leave. And you would sit there and say, how did he just do what he did A. Fucking. Jesus. And he said, and we're still listening to that. One of those four takes. And he. And he. And he. In 45 minutes, there it is. And we're still listening. We're still decoding and dissecting this level of genius.

[Malcolm McDowell]

Do you see something about that rawness that speaks this.

[Interviewer]

See, this is what I was going to end with, if you don't mind. Is what. We're lucky mutually. Is that front row to that magic. And when it works, it's sort of like, wow.

[Malcolm McDowell]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

And we've both been lucky in that we've stood in that magical moment and. And again. And people will sit and ask us into infinity what happened? And we don't really know because, like, I'll tell fans sometimes, if I knew how to do it again, I would give it to you again and again and again like a Willy Wonka machine. I would give it to you if I could. I don't.

[Malcolm McDowell]

But what makes it so incredible and indelible is the fact that you can't. You can't repeat it again and again and again. And that is the greatness of it.

[Interviewer]

Thank you, sir.

[Malcolm McDowell]

My pleasure.