Pat Benatar & Neil Giraldo | The Magnificent Others with Billy Corgan

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Magnificent Others with Billy Corgan
Episode: Pat Benatar & Neil Giraldo
Release Date: March 19, 2025

---

Introduction to the Guests

In this episode of The Magnificent Others, host Billy Corgan sits down with the legendary duo Pat Benatar and Neil Giraldo. Pat Benatar, a trailblazing female rock artist, and Neil Giraldo, her long-time guitarist, collaborator, and husband, delve into their expansive careers, personal journeys, and the intricate dynamics of their partnership in the music industry.

---

Early Musical Journeys

Timestamp: 00:00 - 07:00

Pat Benatar reminisces about the profound impact of her lyrics, expressing gratitude for being understood through her music. Neil Giraldo shares a vivid memory of his early career struggles, including a moment of frustration that led him to violently exit Capitol Records by throwing a stool through a window (00:06). The conversation quickly touches upon their shared Roman Catholic upbringing, highlighting how their Midwestern roots and religious backgrounds have influenced their lives and music.

Pat Benatar [00:00]: "That lyric was the first time I felt somebody understood what I was going through."

Neil Giraldo [00:06]: "...I threw a stool through the glass window in Capitol Records..."

---

Formation of Partnership

Timestamp: 07:00 - 18:00

Neil Giraldo recounts his transition from a bank teller and bar band singer in Virginia to pursuing a serious music career in New York. He describes the moment he decided to quit his stable job to embrace his passion for music fully (12:07). Meanwhile, Roger Capps, Pat's bassist, shares his early influences and the impetus behind his dedication to songwriting from a young age.

The trio discusses the serendipitous meeting between Pat and Neil, facilitated by producer Mike Chapman. Neil explains how Chapman recognized their potential synergy, leading to their collaboration (29:08).

Neil Giraldo [12:07]: "Because I decided one day to quit that bar band and go back to New York, and that's what I did."

Roger Capps [29:08]: "Mike knew exactly what I was talking about."

---

Overcoming Industry Challenges

Timestamp: 18:00 - 34:00

Pat Benatar and Neil Giraldo delve into the challenges they faced within the music industry, particularly dealing with record labels' expectations versus their artistic vision. Neil shares his initial struggles with maintaining his unique sound while adhering to commercial pressures, leading to creative tensions during recordings.

They discuss the creation of iconic songs like "Love Is a Battlefield" and "Hell Is for Children," highlighting the emotional depth and social commentary embedded in their work. Pat emphasizes how these songs resonated with listeners, providing solace and understanding to those experiencing similar struggles.

Pat Benatar [49:00]: "That lyric was the first time I felt somebody understood what I was going through."

Neil Giraldo [19:18]: "It got scrapped. And then Mike Chapman came in with Peter Cole."

---

Creating “Hell Is for Children”

Timestamp: 34:00 - 55:00

The conversation shifts to the impactful song "Hell Is for Children," which addresses child abuse—a topic rarely explored in mainstream music at the time. Neil explains how reading about various forms of abuse inspired the lyrics, leading to significant backlash from the religious right, including boycotts and protests at their concerts (50:54).

Pat shares her poignant experience relating to the song, discussing how it mirrored her own struggles and the importance of acknowledging abuse openly in society.

Neil Giraldo [50:54]: "The religious right boycotted."

Pat Benatar [53:02]: "If you've been abused, absolutely, you don't have to. There's nothing to prove."

---

Evolution of Sound and Production

Timestamp: 55:00 - 75:00

Roger Capps discusses his role in shaping the band's evolving sound, emphasizing a shift from purely guitar-driven tracks to more diverse and rhythmically complex arrangements (55:44). He highlights the intentional decisions to incorporate various instruments and rhythms to complement Pat's powerful vocals, creating a distinctive and enduring sound.

Pat praises the clarity and authenticity of their music, noting how their sound stands out amidst the changing landscape of the music industry.

Roger Capps [55:44]: "I want to use different instruments. I want different rhythms."

Pat Benatar [58:42]: "The genius of it is the clarity is there, because it's really about celebrating your voice."

---

Navigating Mental Health and Parenthood

Timestamp: 75:00 - 90:00

The guests open up about the immense pressures of the music industry, particularly the lack of support for mental health and the challenges of balancing parenthood with a demanding career. Neil shares his personal struggles, including thoughts of suicide amidst the stress of recording and touring, and the subsequent fallout with record labels over maternity-related issues (70:27).

Pat relates her own experiences advocating for abused children and battling misconceptions about her authenticity and motives in her music.

Neil Giraldo [70:27]: "They sat me down... And I got violent in the studio... I threw a stool through the glass window in Capitol Records."

Pat Benatar [82:05]: "If you show that same passion in music, you will find an audience that will value you."

---

Reflections on the Music Industry

Timestamp: 90:00 - 95:03

In the concluding segment, Pat, Neil, and Roger reflect on the evolving nature of the music industry, critiquing its commercialism and the diminishing space for authentic artistic expression. They discuss the importance of perseverance, maintaining artistic integrity, and the unique challenges faced by artists who strive to innovate and stay true to their vision amidst industry pressures.

Pat underscores the significance of their partnership and the enduring power of their music, encouraging fellow artists to continue pushing boundaries and staying passionate about their craft.

Pat Benatar [91:08]: "Your voice and your voice and your voice has an authenticity that has lasted my life."

Neil Giraldo [94:31]: "I have no intention of doing anything that resembles what we did. And unless we do that going forward, I have no interest."

---

Conclusion

Throughout the episode, Pat Benatar and Neil Giraldo offer a candid and heartfelt exploration of their lives in music, the trials they've faced, and their unwavering commitment to artistic authenticity. Their dialogue not only highlights their individual talents but also the strength of their enduring partnership, serving as an inspiration to both fans and aspiring musicians alike.

---

Notable Quotes:

• Pat Benatar [00:00]: "That lyric was the first time I felt somebody understood what I was going through."
• Neil Giraldo [00:06]: "...I threw a stool through the glass window in Capitol Records..."
• Neil Giraldo [12:07]: "Because I decided one day to quit that bar band and go back to New York, and that's what I did."
• Neil Giraldo [19:18]: "It got scrapped. And then Mike Chapman came in with Peter Cole."
• Pat Benatar [49:00]: "That lyric was the first time I felt somebody understood what I was going through."
• Neil Giraldo [50:54]: "The religious right boycotted."
• Pat Benatar [53:02]: "If you've been abused, absolutely, you don't have to. There's nothing to prove."
• Roger Capps [55:44]: "I want to use different instruments. I want different rhythms."
• Pat Benatar [58:42]: "The genius of it is the clarity is there, because it's really about celebrating your voice."
• Neil Giraldo [70:27]: "They sat me down... And I got violent in the studio... I threw a stool through the glass window in Capitol Records."
• Pat Benatar [82:05]: "If you show that same passion in music, you will find an audience that will value you."
• Neil Giraldo [94:31]: "I have no intention of doing anything that resembles what we did. And unless we do that going forward, I have no interest."

---

Final Thoughts

The Magnificent Others episode featuring Pat Benatar and Neil Giraldo is a profound exploration of resilience, creativity, and the relentless pursuit of artistic truth. Their stories serve as a testament to the enduring power of music to heal, inspire, and bring people together, transcending the challenges posed by an ever-evolving industry.

Transcript

[Pat Benatar]

That lyric was the first time I felt somebody understood what I was going through.

[Neil Giraldo]

Oh, no.

[Roger Capps]

Oh, good.

[Pat Benatar]

Thank you for that.

[Neil Giraldo]

There was no handbook for this, okay? They didn't care. All they knew is it was time to go back in the studio. It was the only time I was violent in the studio. I threw a stool through the glass window in Capitol Records, I had conquered all that boys clip and everything else. But this next part, I don't know. This is something else altogether.

[Pat Benatar]

So correct me if I'm wrong. Are we all Roman Catholics?

[Roger Capps]

Yes.

[Neil Giraldo]

Raised? Yes.

[Roger Capps]

Raised, yes.

[Pat Benatar]

Latin Masses?

[Roger Capps]

Yes.

[Neil Giraldo]

Yes. Polish and Latin.

[Roger Capps]

A lot of incense.

[Pat Benatar]

Jesus on the cross.

[Roger Capps]

On the cross. Stations of the Cross.

[Neil Giraldo]

Oh, yeah. Confession.

[Pat Benatar]

So I feel like we have some kindred understanding. Of course, we're both Rust Belt Midwesterners.

[Roger Capps]

That's correct. Correct. In the pew, I had my mother to the left, my sister. In the end, my mother, myself, my father. My father's tone deaf. My mother could sing, and I would be having vertigo when the incense frankincense would go on and I'd be going, oh, my God. And I. You know, one pitch and no pitch. That was pretty good.

[Neil Giraldo]

You went to Catholic school?

[Roger Capps]

I sure did.

[Neil Giraldo]

Our kids did, too. I did not. I went to public school.

[Pat Benatar]

Yes. I just. I just. I saw that note on you guys, and I thought, okay, we gotta start here because it sort of defines, I think, everything that we get into the.

[Roger Capps]

Midwest and Roman Catholic.

[Pat Benatar]

It might have something to do with rebellion or.

[Roger Capps]

Yes.

[Pat Benatar]

I don't really.

[Neil Giraldo]

Are you the same. Are you as close to the same age as we are?

[Pat Benatar]

I'm 57.

[Roger Capps]

Oh, no, we're 50.

[Neil Giraldo]

So we're a lot older than you.

[Pat Benatar]

Well, we'll get to how I know how I know both of you.

[Neil Giraldo]

I was just going to ask you about, like, did you go to church and the.

[Pat Benatar]

I didn't go to Catholic school.

[Neil Giraldo]

No. But you went to church.

[Pat Benatar]

I'm assuming. My stepmother was a Roman Catholic. What was cool about the Roman Catholic Church that we went to? This would have been about, like, 73, 74. They realized that they weren't getting young parishioners, so they took, like, kind of a side building and they set up, like, the young, cool priests.

[Roger Capps]

Correct.

[Pat Benatar]

And they started doing, like, day by day. We did that.

[Neil Giraldo]

Yeah.

[Pat Benatar]

And I remember thinking, oh, this is so cool. Because now. And the priest would make jokes about the Super Bowl.

[Roger Capps]

Correct. That's right.

[Pat Benatar]

Like, wow, a priest is talking about the Super Bowl. He's giving a prediction on the game.

[Roger Capps]

Yep.

[Pat Benatar]

So you felt like I was the cool priest.

[Roger Capps]

But we had the same thing. Absolutely.

[Pat Benatar]

Really?

[Roger Capps]

And I. I remember my mother saying. Yeah, well, that you start. All of a sudden you had a guitar player on stage, and they would be. You know, the songs would change, and my mother never liked it. Sure. It came later, you know, like with.

[Neil Giraldo]

Our kids, but not me.

[Roger Capps]

No, no. It happened when I was like, 15 or something. 14.

[Pat Benatar]

Day by day. That was the big one.

[Neil Giraldo]

Yes.

[Roger Capps]

Yeah.

[Pat Benatar]

Okay. Actually, let's start here, because I want to talk about your children's book. Tell me, because I want to write a children's book, so I'm jealous.

[Neil Giraldo]

Oh, you should. It's so fun.

[Roger Capps]

What is? Grandparents book. Okay, so it's not. Yeah. We didn't do the children. We did grandchildren. Because as you will find out, if you have grandchildren, everything they say about them is true.

[Pat Benatar]

Okay, can you give me an example?

[Roger Capps]

I'll give you an example. When your children are born, you're having a great time, you love your children, and you think it can never get any better. But then grandbabies come and you go, how did this happen? My sister told me about it. I couldn't believe it. And when we had them, I went. She was right.

[Pat Benatar]

Is it the notion that you get to kind of, like, parachute in and parachute out?

[Neil Giraldo]

But that's not even.

[Roger Capps]

But there's this connection of love that's so powerful.

[Neil Giraldo]

This other thing with them, they're not in your physical. Like, you didn't have them. They love you so much. It's, like, ridiculous.

[Roger Capps]

It's insane.

[Neil Giraldo]

And, like, you're their favorite person on earth, and they're never mad at you. Like, your kids get mad at you and stuff, but not your grandchildren.

[Roger Capps]

They're the best.

[Pat Benatar]

That's. My grandparents were like my rock in my turbulent youth.

[Neil Giraldo]

So we wrote a book. It's called My Grandma and Grandpa Rock.

[Pat Benatar]

So are you the guys, the characters or. So I don't know anything about the context of this.

[Roger Capps]

Yes. We begin. We're the characters. And then we explain all the diversity, all the different grandmas and grandpas and what their names are and what they do for a living and all that stuff.

[Neil Giraldo]

The concept is that our grandchildren are saying, my grandma and grandpa rock, but we're saying in the book that we bet your grandmas and grandpas rock, too, and that we show all the different ways that other people that are grandparents.

[Pat Benatar]

So whose idea was it?

[Roger Capps]

Us together. Yeah. And they just came to us. You like the idea, said, sure. Here's a question for you. What do your children call you?

[Pat Benatar]

Daddy Daddy?

[Roger Capps]

Yeah, we're Papa. Because Italians are so. It's Papa. So even the grandbabies call me Papa, not Grandma.

[Pat Benatar]

Is she Nona, then?

[Neil Giraldo]

No, she didn't do anything.

[Roger Capps]

She didn't do anything like that. But when she was reading the book, the oldest one, she was looking, she goes, she's reading. She and Grandpa, she goes, you're not Grandpa. It should be Papa. So that's kind of cool.

[Neil Giraldo]

It's fun.

[Pat Benatar]

So, okay, I want to start with you. Bank teller, was that. So you were bank. Is it Virginia, right? You're a bank teller?

[Neil Giraldo]

Yeah, when I was. I got married the first time. Really young.

[Pat Benatar]

Yeah.

[Neil Giraldo]

Because I just.

[Pat Benatar]

You as a bank teller, I just. It seems like such a good way to start.

[Roger Capps]

That's a good thing.

[Neil Giraldo]

Well, it was great being in the south because, you know, I was wearing a leopard dress, and, you know, we had to wear a dress.

[Pat Benatar]

This is around 75.

[Neil Giraldo]

Yeah, like 70. No, early two. Two. So I was like 29, 20 years old. I'm wearing a leopard dress. And we had to wear dresses. And I was really mad because, you know, I'm from New York, and there was no such thing as that dress code. I mean, they're ridiculous. So we had to wear a dress. And it used to make me crazy because the staircase that went up to the break room was a floating staircase, an open staircase, and the lone officers, who were all men, set underneath it. So I didn't want to wear a dress. So when they told me I had to wear a dress, I wore a leopard dress. And so people would come to my window in South Carolina, because that was the first place I was a banker.

[Pat Benatar]

Just have a little accent throughout here.

[Neil Giraldo]

And they would say to me, veneta, that's not a local name. And I go, no, I'm from New York. And they go, I'll go to the next window.

[Pat Benatar]

Really?

[Neil Giraldo]

Yeah. So that was that. But then, you know, when I went to Virginia, they were much more liberal, and it was, you know, it was fun. It was a way to make money.

[Pat Benatar]

The reason I want to start there is because this is when you did. Is what, your first recording day gig?

[Neil Giraldo]

Yes, because when I was in Virginia, I met. I started singing with. Besides working at the bank and going to vcu, I also was in this bar band, and we were doing cover songs and stuff. And the guy who was the piano player for that band also wrote songs. And that was one of the first songs.

[Pat Benatar]

I was surprised because it has a little bit of like a Curtis Mayfield, Dionne Warwick.

[Neil Giraldo]

They Were like, you know, they were.

[Roger Capps]

Like a bard sort of on the laundry side.

[Pat Benatar]

But did you have professional aspirations at that point, or. It was just kind of a.

[Neil Giraldo]

No. It was like I sang. You know, I always sang my whole life. And I was working and going to school, and I thought, well, this will be fun.

[Pat Benatar]

Because my father was a kind of a club bar musician. So I remember those times pretty well. And a lot of people were playing, and a lot of people didn't have professional aspirations. There seemed to be a lot of bands.

[Neil Giraldo]

And, I mean, I did when I. When I was. You know, the plan when I was growing up in school was to go to Juilliard. And then that was the whole thing. I was being prepared to do that. And then my boyfriend at the time got drafted, and I was afraid he was gonna die in Vietnam, which he didn't, and I married him. But anyway. But that's why I didn't do. I dropped all the professional aspirations because then I decided to go to school and be a schoolteacher and whatever.

[Pat Benatar]

Okay, so you're over here, bank teller, little side hustle with music, but no real, like, I'm gonna be a star vibe.

[Neil Giraldo]

Not until I did that bar band thing. And then I realized how much I really love singing. And I just decided one day to quit that bar band and go back to New York, and that's what I did. But he started really young.

[Pat Benatar]

Right, because you're like, were you in Cleveland or New York? Because I get a little confused on that. When did you go to New York?

[Roger Capps]

I went in New York when I joined Rick Deringer's band.

[Pat Benatar]

Okay, so let me go early because so is this in Cleveland. Like, you're, you know, you're like a lot of kids, that generation. You listen to Kinks, the who and Yardbirds.

[Roger Capps]

Yeah.

[Pat Benatar]

And. And so did you want to be a rock star?

[Roger Capps]

It was like, well, Sicilian family, right? Growing up the Italian Sicilian. And, well, my father wanted me to play guitar so I could do duets with my sister, who played accordion so we could do the songs of the old country. You know, this was the idea.

[Pat Benatar]

And then I grew up in this.

[Roger Capps]

World, too, so, you know what's going on.

[Pat Benatar]

That's why I'm laughing.

[Roger Capps]

You understand? It was supposed to be.

[Pat Benatar]

Trust me, I had the speech one day. You don't want to play guitar, you want to play accordion.

[Roger Capps]

Yeah. Yeah. I eventually did start playing accordion, too.

[Pat Benatar]

Because there was money there.

[Roger Capps]

I didn't like my sister. I didn't care for how she played. So I got a little Weird. I'm a little weird. Sorry about that. Yeah, she knows about that, so. But that was the idea. After church on Sundays for your family, you were going to do these duets. You know, I was six years old when I started playing guitar. My Uncle Timmy was my mentor. He's only four years older than me, so he came, moved in. Because my grandpa passed away early. He was having. It's like having an older brother. So that was super cool. Wilder brother. Wild, wild older brother. Right. So.

[Pat Benatar]

But it's like a lot of those guys, like back in the day, you're just playing with bands, teen bands, high school dances. Like, what was your kind of.

[Roger Capps]

Well, well, a little different. A little different because I never cared for contemporary pop music. I did, but I wanted it to be different. I didn't want to do cover songs. I wanted to do original songs. Even when I was very young, 12, what I used to do too, which is very weird. And I think back on it, you know how it applies to what you do as well, when you grow up, you filter in all these inspirational people, right. And you don't always know them. Maybe you'd ever seen them listen to the records and you're playing along and you don't know what they look like or anything. And stuff goes in. Right. And then as time goes, you don't forget about it. But it shows up in your playing, singing, writing. Right. So what I would do is I would get a record. My Uncle Timmy would buy me a record. I'd get a record. I'd listen to the record, and I'd listen to all the songs back to back. And I'd start writing songs at an early age because I.

[Pat Benatar]

So what age was that?

[Roger Capps]

About 12.

[Pat Benatar]

That's pretty early. You start writing songs.

[Roger Capps]

Yeah. 12, 13. The songs probably were terrible, but the idea was I was so inspired by the record. In all the songs, I'd say, h, I'll start writing instead of playing the parts on the record.

[Pat Benatar]

Yeah.

[Roger Capps]

And that's. That's how I began that. And that's why I, I, I, as a musician, I use instruments as tools. My main goal is to make great songs, great records. So that's how I always thought, and I still think to this day. So it's all about that to me. So I started real young. I don't know if there's a song in your lifespan when you were a kid that you heard to kind of define where you were gonna go.

[Pat Benatar]

Yeah.

[Roger Capps]

When I heard Elvis Presley, Heartbreak Hotel, because we're like 12 years older. So when I heard that on the hi Fi system my parents had. And I could hear the spatialness of the song. But I was really young. But I can hear the richness of the voice and the reverb and the openness of the song.

[Pat Benatar]

Wasn't that made like at RCA New York or something? Like when Elvis had left Sun.

[Roger Capps]

Yeah, I don't remember. 1956. Yeah, I think it was.

[Pat Benatar]

Sam Phillips sold Elvis's concert to RCA.

[Roger Capps]

Correct.

[Pat Benatar]

For $35,000.

[Roger Capps]

Yeah, I know.

[Pat Benatar]

But that's the first time Elvis is in a real studio.

[Roger Capps]

It was amazing.

[Pat Benatar]

And the. The bass on that record is richness. Like you can tell. It's stand up bass, everything but the space.

[Roger Capps]

Spatialness. There's a piano, there's.

[Pat Benatar]

Remember who wrote that song. Is it. Is it Doc Thomas?

[Roger Capps]

He has no. He has credit for writing it, but there's. I think there's two other people that wrote it.

[Pat Benatar]

Is it Libra Stoler?

[Roger Capps]

No, it's. It's not. Who.

[Pat Benatar]

You know what, you're right. It's like kind of this. They're almost kind of an obscure writing.

[Roger Capps]

I think it was a. Yeah. A guy and a girl.

[Pat Benatar]

Yeah.

[Roger Capps]

And I don't know if they.

[Pat Benatar]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Roger Capps]

I don't know what.

[Pat Benatar]

Because I was reading about this recently, that's why.

[Roger Capps]

But it was so thunderous, the whole feel of that. And right then I kind of went. That's what I.

[Pat Benatar]

Was it. That it had a kind of a cinematic aspect to it too.

[Roger Capps]

Well, that's funny you mentioned that thing because a lot of times in arranging and producing, I hear stuff in a cinematic form, like an architectural form, you know, where you have the vocal here and you have the reverb and the snare and all these instruments. But I see that.

[Pat Benatar]

That's interesting.

[Roger Capps]

That's how I. I don't do colors. I don't do red, green. And that sounds blue. I don't do that. But I do more architecturally. You know, it's a weird thing, but it always works. It worked like that.

[Pat Benatar]

How do we get you to New York now? So. Because you're. This.

[Neil Giraldo]

Because I wake up one day and I decide that, you know what, this is ridiculous. I should be singing. And I went and I quit.

[Pat Benatar]

So you had that.

[Roger Capps]

She's from New York too, so.

[Pat Benatar]

No, I get that.

[Neil Giraldo]

But I'm saying I quit the bank job. I left the band there.

[Pat Benatar]

How do you. I gotta hear this. So they're saying to you when you march into the office, I'm leaving.

[Neil Giraldo]

I just. I just quit. And I just.

[Pat Benatar]

Was it dramatic? No, no.

[Roger Capps]

Dramatic.

[Neil Giraldo]

No, I mean, it was dramatic for those guys. I mean, we were doing regionally in that part of the country. Like, we had a PBS special, you know. Really? Yeah. We did all this kind of stuff. And I was. And I said, I'm going back to New York. And they're, oh, you'll be back. You know, and all that kind of stuff. And I'm like, I never. I never looked back. But, you know, that was it. And I just decided, this is crazy. And I'm going back to New York and you can't do something for real here. This is crazy. You know, you can be like a big fish in a small pond.

[Pat Benatar]

Is this Richmond?

[Neil Giraldo]

Yeah. And fabulous. I mean, I had the best time. I loved everything. It was great. The people were darling. We had the best time. It was so much fun. But I knew I had to go back to New York.

[Pat Benatar]

Okay.

[Neil Giraldo]

And that was that.

[Pat Benatar]

So the. Your apocryphal story, is it Catch a Rising Star, you're on stage, I go.

[Neil Giraldo]

On at 2:45 in the morning.

[Pat Benatar]

Is it just a kind of a open mic?

[Neil Giraldo]

It's open mic. That's what it was.

[Pat Benatar]

Is it rockabye baby or 60s?

[Neil Giraldo]

I was still doing, like, cabaret music. You know what I mean? You have to understand that even though, like, his whole sensibility started as a young child, the only part of my life that was about pop music and rock and roll music was what I liked as a person, not as a performer.

[Pat Benatar]

Sure.

[Neil Giraldo]

Because my whole thing was about classical music and theater. I was in every musical that was possible to be in. But my favorite singers were, like, you know, Robert Plant and, you know, the Four Talls.

[Pat Benatar]

But I also saw a mention of you being inspired by Liza Minnelli.

[Roger Capps]

No.

[Neil Giraldo]

This is a total fallacy.

[Pat Benatar]

Okay, great. That's the problem with the Internet.

[Neil Giraldo]

This is a total fallacy that I had all of my gay friends.

[Pat Benatar]

Because I love Liza. That's what I was gonna ask you.

[Neil Giraldo]

I mean, I love her mother. I mean, she's fabulous. But that's not what happened.

[Pat Benatar]

Tell me. Tell me the real story.

[Neil Giraldo]

I'll tell you what happened. I have all my gay friends in Richmond. Okay? They say we're gonna go see Liza Minnelli at the. Whatever, Richmond Coliseum. It's a giant thing. I'm working in the bank. I'm singing with. No, I'm not singing yet. I'm just working in the bank.

[Pat Benatar]

All right.

[Neil Giraldo]

These are my friends that I work with at the bank. The gay guys, they wanna go I'm like, sure, whatever. I loved her mother. She's great. Let's go. We go. Here's what happens. The lights are still on in the building. The stage is dark. She's not out yet. I'm sitting there, and I'm looking around, and I'm looking around, and I'm thinking to myself, hmm. And then the lights come on, she comes out, and she starts singing. And I say to myself, are you kidding me? I can do that. And I quit the next day. So it's not her.

[Pat Benatar]

But God bless Liza because she's there. Do you ever meet Liza?

[Neil Giraldo]

Sure. But it wasn't her as a performer. It was what she was doing inside this building.

[Pat Benatar]

I just want to talk about lies. That's why I'm poking you.

[Roger Capps]

It's the rumor. One person starts it by the time. At the end of the day, it changes.

[Neil Giraldo]

No. Robert Plant and Levi Tubbs. Those are the people you know from Fort Fort Charles. And like Joni Mitchell. These are the people that were. And John Lent.

[Pat Benatar]

No, I just thought it was an interesting, you know, thing.

[Neil Giraldo]

I know. Well, I'm glad we cleared that up.

[Pat Benatar]

So is Chrysalis. Somebody from Chrysalis sees you and I'm.

[Neil Giraldo]

In New York and Gambia, Starkie. And I'm showcasing.

[Pat Benatar]

Yeah.

[Neil Giraldo]

Okay.

[Pat Benatar]

But are you looking for a deal?

[Neil Giraldo]

I'm making the transition from being a cabaret musical theater singer. Took me three years.

[Pat Benatar]

Okay.

[Neil Giraldo]

Start working with songwriters. Because I'm so used to still singing other people's music and emulating, you know, what their performances are.

[Pat Benatar]

Can I. People in your ear. Because there's always somebody in your ear when you're young. What were they telling you that you should be? Because obviously we know.

[Neil Giraldo]

Who told me I should be Olivia Newton John. They said, look how good she's doing. And. Are you crazy? Girls don't do.

[Pat Benatar]

You could have done that. No problem.

[Neil Giraldo]

Of course. But girls don't sell at Madison Square Garden. And I was like. And that was. That's all I needed. That's all. All you had to say done was Liza Minnelli and girls can't sell at Madison Square Garden.

[Pat Benatar]

That's what I'm saying.

[Roger Capps]

Sorry.

[Pat Benatar]

Sorry. It was a bad joke. So you get offered a deal, and now you.

[Neil Giraldo]

First I have to go through, like, three years of the transition.

[Pat Benatar]

Okay, but, you know, then the movie. That's a quick cut.

[Neil Giraldo]

I know, but it's not that quick, because I know.

[Pat Benatar]

I want to hear about. I'm actually.

[Neil Giraldo]

It was me starting to sing, you know, like, trying to, like, sing Satisfaction. I sounded like Julie Andrews. It was like, not, you know, And I love.

[Pat Benatar]

Is that where you kind of. Because when I first heard you, what amazed me is I love that you had a rock quality to your voice. That's my earliest memories of listening to you. It was like, wow. I actually like a woman singing rock.

[Neil Giraldo]

I just learned, though, because I loved it so much. I just didn't know how to take everything that I had here.

[Pat Benatar]

Yeah. I didn't know if that was natural because it.

[Neil Giraldo]

It was the most unnatural thing on earth.

[Pat Benatar]

But to be honest, for me, as a young fan, that was like. That's what attracted me.

[Neil Giraldo]

Well, good.

[Roger Capps]

My work is.

[Neil Giraldo]

But it was. Because I never. I was working with guitar, like, you know, guitar players and everything. Everybody was. And they were patting me on the head like, y. Yes, we understand. Yes. And I'm like, no, you don't understand at all. And when I signed with Chrysalis, I still didn't know Spider yet. And that first we did. We still had Heartbreaker. What do we have? Heartbreaker. I Need a Lover. No, no, we had Heartbreaker.

[Roger Capps]

That's.

[Neil Giraldo]

And we had. I don't know. Something. I don't know. We had a few.

[Pat Benatar]

Don't jump my storyline. No, but wait, I gotta talk about. But I have to tell you, Rick Derringer.

[Neil Giraldo]

Okay, we're gonna get there. But. But the point is that you did.

[Pat Benatar]

Warn me, by the way.

[Roger Capps]

I did. I warned you. I tried to warn you.

[Pat Benatar]

No, please, please, please. Because I think the problem is I'm.

[Neil Giraldo]

Getting to him, which is really important, is that I couldn't find anybody who actually understood what I was doing.

[Pat Benatar]

Okay, I get that.

[Neil Giraldo]

They're patting me on the head. We actually made beginning of a record, five songs with Chrysalis. Me and all these people. They put together, Wattie and all these people. And Terry Ellis came to me when we did the five songs. And while we were doing it, I was thinking, oh, my God, this is my one chance, and this is not it. And I'm, like, freaking out. And he comes to me and he says to me, you know, it's the first time. I don't want you to expect too much. And I said, oh, my God, I expect everything.

[Pat Benatar]

Okay, has that changed or.

[Roger Capps]

No, that's okay. That's why I'm quiet right now.

[Neil Giraldo]

It got scrapped. It got scrapped. And then Mike Chapman came in with Peter Cole. Now, Mike didn't do a whole lot.

[Pat Benatar]

Of work, but don't jump my toe story.

[Roger Capps]

You're jumping ahead. No, but you're Jumping way ahead.

[Pat Benatar]

No, because it's. Cause it's important. Because let me give you a perspective. Right. First time I ever see your husband is he's with you. So that's all I know as a fan, but when I actually do the research, it's like, oh, he did this. And it was.

[Neil Giraldo]

That's what I was trying to tell you.

[Roger Capps]

But I'm saying.

[Pat Benatar]

Let me tell that story too.

[Neil Giraldo]

Let me tell that story.

[Pat Benatar]

No, because as a fan, you know, you get these impressions, but they're not accurate.

[Neil Giraldo]

They're not. Okay, go.

[Pat Benatar]

Right. That's what I'm saying. Thank you.

[Roger Capps]

You know why? Because there's a thing. There's a little formula. Assumption plus judgment equals X. So you assume something you don't really know, and then you judge that. And most of the time, 5%, you may be right. 3%, you may be right. You don't really know, in other words.

[Pat Benatar]

Yeah, because I consider myself a bit of a snobby rock historian. And when I did my research on you, it surprised me because. And I want to talk about those things, but it was like I found myself connecting dots. Like, oh, I didn't know you did that. And that makes sense. And that's where that sound went this way. And that's why it had this influence. So that's why this partnership works. But as a fan. And by the way, the albums were called Pat Benatar. Correct?

[Neil Giraldo]

Because it was signed as Pat Benatar.

[Pat Benatar]

Okay, I get you. But I'm saying, as a fan, it's not Pat Neil.

[Neil Giraldo]

No, we tried.

[Pat Benatar]

And let me tell you, because I Woke up at 4:30 this morning to interview you guys today to get ready. And you know the first thing, I opened my email and somebody sent me an email. I said, pat Neal, and it just read like, two old ladies. Like, who are Pat Neil? Like, you know what I mean?

[Neil Giraldo]

I was like, we are. Well, one of us is an old lady.

[Pat Benatar]

No, but I get that. What I'm saying is, like, I'm like, who's Pat Neal? Because the way it just rang, you know. Okay, so Rick Derringer. I love Rick Derringer, by the way.

[Roger Capps]

Rick's the greatest.

[Pat Benatar]

Please tell me about Rick, because I always love rock and roll Hoochie Coop. But I. I love Rick with Johnny Winter. And I love. What was this band, Rick's original band.

[Roger Capps]

Oh, you mean Hang on, sloopy. Oh, the McCoys.

[Pat Benatar]

McCoys, yeah. Great band, too.

[Roger Capps]

Great band. Number one record.

[Pat Benatar]

Basically, everything Rick's ever touched is really good. So, like guitar players, we Know, Rick's.

[Roger Capps]

Really good, great player.

[Pat Benatar]

Yeah, tell me a little bit about. There's like 400 people auditioned or something.

[Roger Capps]

It was 200. 200 plus people audition. Yeah, that's, that's, that's, that's impressive. Yeah.

[Neil Giraldo]

Going up to it?

[Roger Capps]

Yeah, yeah, I will. Hold on. So, you know, I was playing in many bands and I was young, 21 years old. So a lot of bands like you do when you're growing up, you do all these things, doing strange covers and weird songs, you know, you never play in high school places that other people are playing, making a lot of money. We didn't do that in the bands I was with. So anyway, so I was playing in this band. I was getting kind of depressed and I was moving around. I was playing bass guitar and keyboard. It was just, it was one of these four piece bands where everybody kind of switched around, you know. And I was playing in a band and this person came up to me during a break and says, wow, you're a great bass player. Would you like to audition for. What the heck is his name now? Oh, with White Trash.

[Neil Giraldo]

The Cleveland guy?

[Roger Capps]

No, he was in White Trash with, with Edgar Winner. Edgar Winner, the bass player Hartman.

[Pat Benatar]

Okay.

[Roger Capps]

Yeah, I think. I can't remember now. I was like, that's what happens. You get older. Forget this. But anyway, I said to him, I said to him, I said, well, I have to ask my bandmates if it's okay if I do something. He goes, it's in New York. I says, but I'm more primarily a guitar player and a piano player. I don't play bands.

[Pat Benatar]

You don't necessarily want to be a bass player.

[Roger Capps]

So he said, oh, well, Rick Derring was looking for a guitar player. I went, could I see him? So he set up an audition for both of them the same day. I went to Rick first. I got done auditioning for Rick. And I says, well, I get Dan Hartman. Dan Hartman.

[Pat Benatar]

And then singer, songwriter. Dan Hartman.

[Roger Capps]

Yeah, yeah. Bass player. Yeah. And. And then I says, Rick, I says, you know, I really enjoyed it. Thank you for having me. I says, I gotta go audition for Dan Hartman now. He goes, no, you don't. You're not going. I says, well, I have an audition. He goes, no, you're not. So I became a finalist in the, in the, in the last five out of these 200 guitar players. Okay, so. But it goes like this. This is the funny part about this. So as I'm waiting to go do the audition, the first time this guy walks out, he's got this long black hair, he looked like Fabi. A leather jacket, all these rings and all these came out and went, oh, my God, there's no chance I'm going to get this gig. Because I had a rope belt, pair of jeans, white sneakers and a white T shirt. That's all I had. And I looked at him, he goes, hey, how you doing? I go, good. I go, I'm Neil. And he goes, I'm Rudy. Really? Rudy Valentino was his name. Now here's the funny part of the story. So he comes out and he's like, jesus, I ain't got a chance. Well, it went, went in there, went really well. I had to come back first.

[Pat Benatar]

Wait, stop one second. So in order to edition for Ricky Aringer, you're just jamming, you're playing a song or.

[Roger Capps]

Well, he told me, they told me a few songs to learn song. I learned everything.

[Pat Benatar]

Yeah.

[Roger Capps]

Okay. And then when I went in there and started playing and I says, you know, you're going to do any Jerry Lee Lewis, I know you do this Rave up stuff. And he goes, we might. I go, well, I play piano too. He says, well, prove it. Put the piano in there. I play it. Prove it. So, so, and what else do you do? I go, I like to write songs. You know, I sing backup. I don't care much about singing, but. And I love writing and does. Okay, prove it. So I had to go back to Cleveland with the band and write a song and record it.

[Pat Benatar]

Oh, you didn't have any songs?

[Roger Capps]

No. Record it. Well, not that I could play him. I was too embarrassed. So I went, wrote something, recorded it and went back. And that's when I got the gig. Wow. Yeah. So it was a. It was.

[Pat Benatar]

And you're with Rick how long?

[Roger Capps]

About a year and a half. Yeah, about a year and a half. And actually, when we made the first record, I finished the first record, I was back in New York and I saw Johnny Winner.

[Pat Benatar]

Yeah.

[Roger Capps]

And he heard the record, I played in the record. And he goes, oh, I like that, I like that. I go, yeah, I, I, you know, I'm in Rick's band, you know, I don't think I can go back to Rick Eagle. No. He goes, you should be, you should be there.

[Pat Benatar]

I said, johnny Winter. Told you.

[Roger Capps]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Pat Benatar]

Wow, that's interesting.

[Roger Capps]

Yeah. And then Rick says, you're coming back, right?

[Pat Benatar]

I'm sorry, because you felt you had an arc.

[Roger Capps]

Well, here's the thing. For me, this is the basis of why this works so well from my perspective. I'm not A singer. I sing because I have to, to write. No, no, no, no, no.

[Pat Benatar]

Okay, wait, stop. How good a singer is.

[Neil Giraldo]

No, he's a very good singer.

[Roger Capps]

No, I'm not.

[Neil Giraldo]

He's got real soul. It's like amazing.

[Roger Capps]

No, I'm not. So all's I'm looking for is a great singer, right? To work with.

[Pat Benatar]

That's all.

[Roger Capps]

I want somebody that can sing and do. Because I love a lot of different genres.

[Pat Benatar]

You know what they say in life, Be careful what you wish.

[Roger Capps]

I know that. Look what happened. That's what I'm saying here. So, I mean. And I didn't care.

[Pat Benatar]

You got the full deal.

[Roger Capps]

I know. I didn't care if it was a woman, a guy. I don't care. I just want a great singer. And all the bands I was with, I had singers in a band, but they weren't great. I wanted great. And then when I. I met Patricia and I went, oh. I said. First thing I told her, I says, you sure you want to do this? You know, because.

[Pat Benatar]

Well, why did you say that?

[Roger Capps]

Because her voice was so smooth and easy and she was doing falsetto. She wouldn't go to the note in a real range, real voice. She didn't have that yet.

[Pat Benatar]

You mean the rock?

[Neil Giraldo]

Yeah, that's what I'm saying.

[Roger Capps]

Yeah. She would cheat on it, so.

[Pat Benatar]

Yeah, I get it.

[Roger Capps]

And then.

[Neil Giraldo]

Cheating.

[Pat Benatar]

That's cheating for rock people. It's cheating.

[Roger Capps]

It's cheating. So I told her, you sure you want to do this? I don't want to be the guy that's going to damage your voice, you know.

[Pat Benatar]

Oh, because. To push her voice. Yeah, because you hear what rock does to her voice.

[Roger Capps]

We kept working, kept working until we hit that score.

[Pat Benatar]

How long was that period of working?

[Roger Capps]

A couple months. Because.

[Pat Benatar]

Are you writing too, or just working on.

[Roger Capps]

Just working on that bit. Writing was part of that process later, but it was. I just. I knew that there was something else that she had in her that she had to get to because she had all this range. And it was. But it didn't carry. This note did not carry with the regular voice here. It went to falsetto. You can't do that. We cannot do that. Yeah, please do that.

[Pat Benatar]

It's your turn.

[Neil Giraldo]

The reason this happened, you guys are so cute together.

[Roger Capps]

They're not cute.

[Neil Giraldo]

No, but this is observation. But this is what happened. What happened is that what I was saying is that when I was making the record the first time, I had all these people who are amazing players, but none of them was doing what I was talking about. And I.

[Pat Benatar]

Was it. Sorry to interrupt you. Was it an emotional thing you were after or a feeling? Explain it to me. Explain it to me how you explained it to them.

[Neil Giraldo]

I was looking for this really powerful bed to sing on top of.

[Pat Benatar]

Is that rock to you or just an emotional feeling?

[Neil Giraldo]

No, it was a musical thing.

[Roger Capps]

I was looking for emotional.

[Pat Benatar]

I hate to interrupt you, but I just wanna. I really wanna understand. Is it rock that you. Are you saying I wanna sound like this band? Or is it an emotional. Understand, like, what I do? What's the languaging you were using?

[Neil Giraldo]

Okay.

[Pat Benatar]

Because. Sorry. Because you did get there, obviously, together. And I was one of those people who bought that first record and was like, what is this? So whatever you figured out was good. But I want to know what you told him.

[Neil Giraldo]

Okay. I didn't want to be a girl singer singing falsetto parts up at the top. I wanted to be this other thing. I heard it. I knew what I heard in my head. There wasn't enough bop. There wasn't enough bass of music. Like, I didn't have enough power underneath.

[Pat Benatar]

It to push you, to push you. Okay, I got that.

[Neil Giraldo]

Okay. So what happened was when. Then Mike Chapman came in with Peter Coleman. Mike and I were sitting together and he was like. He was hilarious. He could do like three songs. And I was like, whatever. And Peter was gonna do the record, which turned out to be the best thing that happened. But Mike and I sat together and he said, what do you want? And I told him that. And he said to me, I got your guy.

[Roger Capps]

Cause I was with Derringer. He saw me. Cause he produced Rick's record.

[Pat Benatar]

But Mike Chapman had also done, like, the Suite and stuff like that. So he knew how to get a.

[Neil Giraldo]

But he knew exactly what I was talking about.

[Pat Benatar]

So when you explained it, he thought of him.

[Neil Giraldo]

He thought of him. And I said, okay, fine, let's do it. So all he wanted us to do was to meet each other. That was it. Because he knew exactly what I was talking about.

[Pat Benatar]

So take me to that first meeting. You look and say, here's my future musical partner. Here's my future husband. Like, what was your first impression?

[Neil Giraldo]

It was everything but the.

[Pat Benatar]

They say. Women know, right? They do. They say. It was my wife said she and I. It just took me 12 years to figure it out.

[Neil Giraldo]

I don't know what to do with that. Because it was.

[Pat Benatar]

I got that. We'll stay on the professional side of the equation.

[Neil Giraldo]

No, but I'm saying. No, but I mean, we can. It's an important part of the day is that I was signed. Okay. As me with a bunch of fabulous musicians who were just coming and going. No band. Not yet. We're at. Sir. He's coming down.

[Pat Benatar]

Sir. Here?

[Roger Capps]

No, in New York.

[Pat Benatar]

Oh, sorry.

[Roger Capps]

Yeah.

[Neil Giraldo]

We don't know each other at all. I know about him. I have recently.

[Pat Benatar]

Was he wearing a rope belt when he came?

[Roger Capps]

Yeah.

[Neil Giraldo]

Yes, he was. And he. When he. The rope belt told Jerry, go to New York to meet this person. He didn't know at first that I was a female. He didn't know.

[Pat Benatar]

He just heard a singer and the.

[Neil Giraldo]

First thing he said was she good looking.

[Pat Benatar]

I mean, well, that's what a guy would say.

[Roger Capps]

This is telling you, ma'am, what's he gonna do?

[Neil Giraldo]

So I want you to understand where I did that. That was where that was. But they told him that I was this.

[Pat Benatar]

See this empathy here is. I'm Sicilian too. He doesn't know that.

[Roger Capps]

But I. You are too. So you connect.

[Pat Benatar]

I'm feeling the flow.

[Roger Capps]

That's what I'm saying. That's why we connect.

[Neil Giraldo]

And I am a ball buster because it is the women's movement and I'm not having anybody tell me what to do ever. Okay.

[Pat Benatar]

I kind of got that feeling right about now. I just met you.

[Neil Giraldo]

But so anyway, that's why I'm flying now. I'm prepared for this guy who they're telling me all about now this. He's young. I mean, he's younger than me, all this stuff and everything. And I have my back to the door. I'm talking to my manager at the time and they say, neil Giraldo's here. And I'm like, oh, okay, cool. And I'm signed. Okay. And he says. I hear him say he didn't bring his guitar.

[Roger Capps]

Well, no, I was playing piano first.

[Neil Giraldo]

So he was going to play piano. He didn't know what he was coming to play. And he says to somebody in the room, my back is still to him, can I borrow your X man? And I'm like, what? And I'm like going to turn around now and just go like this, okay? And I turn around, ready to just like. Like this. I turn around and I go, oh, my God. Okay. He hasn't played a note. He turns around and he's got the guitar on his body and he goes like this, like that.

[Pat Benatar]

I know how he stands on stage. I got it, I got it.

[Neil Giraldo]

So now I'm seeing all swagger now. And I want to smash my own face. Okay. I want to smack out of myself, like, get a grip. Okay. What the are you doing? Okay. And I'm looking at him, and I don't know, I can't even breathe now. And he hits one chord, and I'm like, that was it?

[Pat Benatar]

That was the sound you were looking for?

[Neil Giraldo]

That was it?

[Roger Capps]

Yeah.

[Pat Benatar]

You found all out all this stuff later, right? You're just like, I just went in an acorn.

[Neil Giraldo]

A and R guy.

[Roger Capps]

Oh, yeah, the A and R guy. But what she misses, what she leaves out, is the fact that, yeah, Mike saw me play. Mike was the guy that connected us all, saw me play with Derringer, because he produced the record before. The record before with Derringer. So he's perfect. He's a guy that understands song structure to play instruments. He can help with the writing, the produce, all these things. Here I am, perfect. Perfect match. So I. I go down there because I want to talk to her. It's kind of like we're auditioning each other in a way, because what is it you want to do? And how could I be helpful?

[Pat Benatar]

For all you know, it's just another. I don't know. Yeah.

[Roger Capps]

So I sit down at the piano and play piano. I says, well, what. What do you think about. I heard some of the demos in. In those. Or whatever that part of that record was, and it wasn't anything like.

[Pat Benatar]

What did it sound like to you? Like, like kind of schlocky.

[Roger Capps]

Well, there's.

[Pat Benatar]

First of all, kind of.

[Roger Capps]

Well, there was. There was no. There was no. There was no emotional giving of. Of attitude or punch or. It wasn't there. And her. Her singing was very light, like, you know, hitting the notes, pretty. And she did a cover of Crying. Roy Orbison crying. Okay, beautiful. But what. That ain't what you're trying to do here. So when we started playing at that rehearsal, I started playing and I. I stop and I say, you just talked about what you want to do. That's not happening yet. So that's when I knew we had to start developing, changing keys, arrangements, things pushing, working together.

[Pat Benatar]

So what convinced you that you wanted to be musically involved? The life part is coming, but the musical, like, what were you like? Okay, I want to. Or do you just see it as an opportunity?

[Roger Capps]

I saw it as an opportunity, but it was also a gift because of the raw talent. It wasn't as though Patricia was doing clubs for 10 years prior to that. In that rockin world, the world that we grew up in, she wasn't experienced in that. She was not that quote, I Hate to do this. This chick group. Chick, girl singer, rock.

[Pat Benatar]

I totally know what you mean.

[Roger Capps]

She wasn't that when I met her. I'm thinking, you're such a normal, nice. You're educated, you went to school, you know all these things. You didn't play.

[Pat Benatar]

Probably not. And also not overly affected in how she was singing. Right?

[Roger Capps]

Nothing. So it was this really. This really virgin musical journey that I could be able to really embrace and be from a beginning.

[Pat Benatar]

So you saw your own kind of.

[Roger Capps]

Oh, totally. It was a way that we. A partnership. Because when we met and we decided that, yes, okay, I'm the guy and this is going to work, there was a partnership done between her and I. We were equal partners. She had the record deal, but we were equal partners in the fact that we were anything. In other words. It was a pretty strange thing. But when the A and R says, I'm glad this is going to work, you can do anything you want. That was the word. Anything you want.

[Pat Benatar]

So you guys met in 78, is that right? Yes. Okay, so please don't jump. I'm too far ahead. But you mean 78. How soon from that? Let's call it ground zero of meeting. And you go, oh, like I have this feeling. How soon are you talking? Like you're talking now. Is it sexually six months in music or which way? Well, there's. In my mind, in the movie, in my mind, there comes a day where you guys sit down at a coffee shop and go, okay, we gotta sort of figure this out, because whatever's happening here is bigger than.

[Neil Giraldo]

Okay, you mean.

[Roger Capps]

Correct. This was 70.

[Pat Benatar]

It doesn't matter. It just strikes me that your partnership is so intense and obviously it's remained.

[Neil Giraldo]

We decided.

[Roger Capps]

It was in 79 too, by the way. It was in month of May, I think in 79 when we met.

[Neil Giraldo]

That's true. It was 70. I knew. They told me about in 78, but we decided this immediately because I was such a willing. A willing acolyte.

[Pat Benatar]

But are you pitching him on love and business or just business?

[Neil Giraldo]

No, we're not together. We make that whole record. Not together.

[Pat Benatar]

But you're having these feelings.

[Neil Giraldo]

No, we're losing our minds. But we're like, we know what this means and we know that we should not do this because is it the.

[Pat Benatar]

If. If we cross this line, we might up this other thing that's obviously going to work.

[Neil Giraldo]

They were in there because you dare. Don't.

[Pat Benatar]

Oh, so you had other people in your ear.

[Neil Giraldo]

Yeah, they were in there, like, do not do nothing. This up. Okay, now we were like insane. Okay. It was crazy. But, you know, it made that record really fun because it was so much tension and like, you know, all that kind of stuff going on. It was bad.

[Pat Benatar]

And how are you feeling through this whole.

[Roger Capps]

Yeah, I had a girlfriend and I was living in Southern California. She was married and I had a girlfriend. And then that went sideways. So, you know, I thought it was.

[Neil Giraldo]

That day that was.

[Roger Capps]

That was. That was the universe kind of talking.

[Neil Giraldo]

I mean, it was like all hooked up. It was, you know, it was like a thing. And I was trying to get divorced. And as soon as I knew that this was gonna happen, I sent people to take him to get divorced. So we just like that, you know. So.

[Pat Benatar]

All right, back to business.

[Roger Capps]

Yes.

[Pat Benatar]

First record.

[Roger Capps]

Right?

[Pat Benatar]

I got this, right, Right?

[Roger Capps]

Yeah.

[Pat Benatar]

So let me ask you this. And this has gone on a lot of covers interspersed. But great songs, cool choices. Like the Rascal song, you Better Run. We said it on the first or second.

[Roger Capps]

Second record.

[Pat Benatar]

Okay. But I mean, I always like that you guys picked really cool for cover songs.

[Neil Giraldo]

Yeah, I wasn't writing yet. And he wrote. The only song that we had that was original was We Live for Love.

[Roger Capps]

Off the first record. You like that one?

[Neil Giraldo]

Because that he.

[Pat Benatar]

See, sorry, we're talking like Schneider, but when she uses falsetto in that song, in that context, it's actually very new wave.

[Roger Capps]

Correct. That was the point.

[Pat Benatar]

But that works.

[Roger Capps]

That works. That was intention.

[Pat Benatar]

Knowing I was going to talk to you guys, I went back and started listening to stuff and I had this sense, like that song, cuz I heard it obviously, but I was like, oh, I love that song. When your voice goes up, it's so cool. It's very alternative.

[Neil Giraldo]

Yeah, it was.

[Roger Capps]

That was when we did. Yeah, we did 64. 64 vocals for that. But not eight. We did eight. She didn't sing it 64 times. We did eight. And then we would fly it in.

[Pat Benatar]

Okay.

[Roger Capps]

I got, you know. You know.

[Pat Benatar]

Yeah, before. Yeah, yeah.

[Roger Capps]

You know all this.

[Pat Benatar]

But I think this is cool. Just as a side note is your appeal is you. The rock audiences embraced you, which was unique. You know, Chicago, Cleveland, like, yeah, it was girls singing rock. You had to be the right person. So if you look at the air, like whether it was you or Chrissy Hine, very few women kind of broke through with a rock crowd. Embrace them.

[Roger Capps]

Totally.

[Pat Benatar]

But what's interesting is the alternative crowd that was coming that was listening to you. You were just as influential in this other way.

[Roger Capps]

Correct.

[Pat Benatar]

So your rock world and your Alternative role all comes from these moments that you guys are creating. That's pretty cool.

[Roger Capps]

It was fun. That was. Yeah. Again, I go back to that genre stuff, the diversity, and that was really important to me as a musician.

[Pat Benatar]

So it was a conscious kind of decision, too.

[Roger Capps]

Yeah. I wanted to go in a lot of different directions because, again, the gift, having the great singer, we were able to. I was able to do anything. I mean, it was this.

[Pat Benatar]

Well, you know, once you have success, then they're gonna.

[Roger Capps]

Oh, it was beautiful.

[Neil Giraldo]

Yeah, it just works because Peter Coleman was such an incredible teacher.

[Roger Capps]

Great, great engineer. Oh, my God.

[Neil Giraldo]

He was so. He just was like. He knew what we had as individuals. He knew what we had when we came together. And he was all about giving us a safe space to go.

[Roger Capps]

Yeah, he was great.

[Neil Giraldo]

There was no, like, nothing was. Nothing was wrong. Nothing wasn't okay. Everything was. Try. Throw everything against the wall. Because we had the capability to do that. We were able to do that the way that, you know. Because one of us, me, didn't have a clue. I was willing to do anything.

[Roger Capps]

She was great back then. What the A and R said he could do anything. I could do anything I want. And she was like, okay, okay.

[Pat Benatar]

So is the internal conversation. Hey, are you. I'm speaking as if I was him. Are you willing to let me kind of throw you where I want to throw you and see what works? And you're like, cool, let's have fun.

[Roger Capps]

Let's have fun.

[Pat Benatar]

Let's do it. That's correct. So your lack of knowledge, and so let's call it the rock side of the equation, helped him figure out who you were.

[Neil Giraldo]

It was a bl. It helped me figure out who I was.

[Pat Benatar]

Well, what's so amazing about that and credit to both of you is whatever came out sounded like you in the fan's mind. Like, that sound is you. Like, there's no other sound. That's you. So that's where I was a fan.

[Roger Capps]

Correct.

[Neil Giraldo]

And that was the part that I heard in my head.

[Pat Benatar]

Well, that's what's amazing. So from a nerd question. Yeah, I was always struck. And again, I was listening today. The guitar always seemed to be cleaner than I wanted it to be. Was that a conscious decision to make room for her voice, or did you. Because the songs rocked. It's not like when you cranked them up, they sounded amazing. Because we had the classic tube stereo in the midst of my father being a musician. That's where they did all their cocaine. We had a really loud stereo first Two records and cranked them. Right?

[Roger Capps]

Crank.

[Pat Benatar]

They sound great. But I'm saying, from a nerd point of view, was that space conscious, like you were talking about space before, not conscious.

[Roger Capps]

And only thing was, is when I. When I. I never liked the overly distorted guitar because I couldn't hear the articulation. And I love playing.

[Pat Benatar]

You always played Strats back then, right?

[Roger Capps]

No. What was it?

[Pat Benatar]

I. I remember you playing Strats live. Or is that it?

[Neil Giraldo]

Yeah.

[Roger Capps]

No, no. I did Strats and tellies. Yeah. BC Rich gave me guitars in the early 80s as well, and I used those, too, as well with the Humber's, that kind of stuff. But I always had a cleaner tone. Even if I play with a distorted amp, it always came out cleaner. And I don't know why.

[Pat Benatar]

It's just the way you.

[Roger Capps]

I think it's the way I attack heavy strings. Real heavy strings. I fight the guitar.

[Pat Benatar]

Okay. Maybe that's part of it.

[Roger Capps]

Yeah.

[Pat Benatar]

Because your sound's so distinctive.

[Roger Capps]

Correct.

[Pat Benatar]

Now, as a kid, I wanted more, like, heaviness.

[Roger Capps]

Sure. Well, you guys had. You know.

[Pat Benatar]

But I'm saying, I always wanted that. I always wanted that. And even live, I've heard live recordings where it's a little bit more like typical rock sound, but missing the records. Now, the genius of it is the clarity is there, because it's really about celebrating your voice.

[Roger Capps]

Correct. Always.

[Pat Benatar]

The older producer in me says that was the right decision.

[Roger Capps]

Always.

[Pat Benatar]

As a kid, though, I wanted more.

[Roger Capps]

Like, laugh, for sure. No, it's always about spatial. The voice. Listen, nobody's gonna be walking around singing guitar parts. You listen it to the vocal. That's the most important thing.

[Neil Giraldo]

Cause he was the most generous person. He was yards ahead of me when we started. Yards.

[Pat Benatar]

How about now, though, we're equal?

[Roger Capps]

Well, I'm a little bit.

[Pat Benatar]

Just a little Scott.

[Neil Giraldo]

But my point is, he was years. He was years ahead of me, Yards ahead of me in that area of the world.

[Pat Benatar]

I can't be.

[Neil Giraldo]

It wasn't like I wasn't a school musician. I was, but not here. This was fascinating to me because I had all this. I had all of this education, and I could articulate and I could. You know, I could basically sing in anything that I wanted to sing in except this, really. So this was nothing but fun. But he was so generous. This was the. I can't even tell you what a glorious first time this was, because everyone that was in there, we were all about the good of the whole. He was always about. He was last. He made himself last. All the time. It was always about the song. It was always about the performance of the song. And that's what he did. He did. I mean, the arrangements. He did. Working and working. And he was learning engineering. He learned in, like, moment. And it was amazing because I was. It gave me that bed that I was looking for. Of freedom and safety. That I could fly.

[Pat Benatar]

Yeah. Okay, so now you're on tour. You're still. You're feeling this. Feel like. At what point does this dam break.

[Neil Giraldo]

Open where you're like, okay, before we go on tour.

[Roger Capps]

Yeah, before the first show. Yeah. Okay.

[Neil Giraldo]

His girlfriend breaks up with him and he. We're sitting at lunch. And meanwhile, you know, I'm pretty much gonna commit suicide. Cause I can't take it any longer. We've made this whole record. I'm going to kill myself. And I don't know what to do anymore. And I don't wanna screw this up. And I'm trying to be my Capricorn self and not screw this up. And I'm a very pragmatic, grounded human. And I'm dying. And he sits down and he says, I have to talk to you. And I'm like, oh, he's gonna quit the band. We didn't even get out. We didn't even go, okay, all right, fine, I'm going. We're gonna go have a drink together in the afternoon after rehearsal. And he says, you know, she's leaving me. And I'm like, you have no idea. Like, I'm like this. I'm like, oh, God. I'm like, going, yes. Because I'm like the Catholic girl who would never take another girl's boyfriend.

[Pat Benatar]

See, back to Roman Catholics.

[Roger Capps]

There it is. We're back to that.

[Neil Giraldo]

If it ever happened, I am a principled person. I would never do this. All he had to do is say that. Done.

[Pat Benatar]

I don't know. Sorry to laugh.

[Roger Capps]

Yeah, I know. I laughed to myself.

[Pat Benatar]

So 79ish. You guys are doing the. Are you doing those tours, like, back then, where they just throw you on as an opening act? Where you do it for a minute in the beginning?

[Roger Capps]

Yeah.

[Neil Giraldo]

Yeah, for a minute.

[Pat Benatar]

But then the record takes off and then you're fired.

[Neil Giraldo]

We get fired. They can't go on after us. People that we're opening for can't go on after us. We get fired.

[Pat Benatar]

You want to name any names? Who fired you?

[Roger Capps]

I want to know who it wasn't. Not fired.

[Neil Giraldo]

Well, you know, they want you to go home.

[Roger Capps]

Yeah. Not fired.

[Pat Benatar]

They don't want you to look better Than you.

[Roger Capps]

Yeah. It was funny. At the very beginning, we opened for Eddie Money, and he's a great guy.

[Pat Benatar]

I've met Eddie. He's right out of central casting.

[Roger Capps]

Yeah, he's like, terrific.

[Neil Giraldo]

Great.

[Roger Capps]

Yeah. He's like Rodney Dangerfield.

[Pat Benatar]

Totally.

[Neil Giraldo]

Yeah.

[Roger Capps]

And his mother came up to us and says, you know, you guys should be closing Eddie. You should be opening up. His mother tells us that. Oh, my God.

[Neil Giraldo]

No. Yeah.

[Roger Capps]

So, yeah, we didn't.

[Neil Giraldo]

We didn't do very.

[Roger Capps]

It didn't last.

[Neil Giraldo]

It didn't last very long at all. We went straight to arenas. We didn't even.

[Pat Benatar]

Well, not arena on the first album.

[Roger Capps]

No, no, no, no. We went from clubs. Yeah, but then it started. Yeah, then it started going up. It went pretty quick because it got crazy.

[Neil Giraldo]

Like, really fast.

[Roger Capps]

Theaters, Bigger theaters.

[Neil Giraldo]

We went to theaters and it was.

[Pat Benatar]

Like, you know, did you. Because if you're not a rock singer in. In Miles, which is kind of what you're saying. When you went on the road, did you find it was hard to adjust at all?

[Neil Giraldo]

No.

[Pat Benatar]

You loved it.

[Neil Giraldo]

I always loved it because not everybody.

[Pat Benatar]

Can make that transition.

[Neil Giraldo]

I was, like, in my element. I could sing every day and I was traveling.

[Pat Benatar]

I loved it because the way things work these days, people give me tapes, and maybe it's because we're in an age of empowerment, but a lot of females will give me advice, and you can tell, they. They don't. They haven't really sung on stage. They don't have that 10,000 hours thing. Oh, yeah, it can sing fine. It just doesn't have the.

[Roger Capps]

Understood.

[Neil Giraldo]

Yeah, but I had always performed. I did okay.

[Pat Benatar]

That's what I was curious if that was a challenge.

[Neil Giraldo]

I was a competitive performer, too.

[Pat Benatar]

Well, but, you know, back then, the monitoring wasn't so great.

[Roger Capps]

Oh, no, it was terrible.

[Neil Giraldo]

We didn't have that. I sang acoustically, you know, I sang opera. We didn't have.

[Pat Benatar]

Yeah, but again, rock is a different animal.

[Neil Giraldo]

But I'm saying that performance was not an issue to me. It was easy.

[Pat Benatar]

That's cool.

[Neil Giraldo]

That was a piece of cake.

[Pat Benatar]

Yeah. I thought this was cool. I didn't know this. You Better Run was the second MTV video ever played.

[Neil Giraldo]

First female, first guitar player on mtv.

[Pat Benatar]

Well, yeah, but the first one, Video Killed the Radio Star, wasn't too far off. No Grammy Award for Best Female vocal on it would have been Hit me with your best shot.

[Neil Giraldo]

No, it was Crimes of Passion, and it was the whole record.

[Roger Capps]

It was that. It.

[Neil Giraldo]

80, 1980.

[Pat Benatar]

Okay, let me see here. I want to know this because I believe you guys are co writes on this song, but tell me this. Let me read this. And then you tell me who wrote this lyric. They cry in the dark so you can't see their tears. They hide in the light so you can't see their fears. Forgive and forget, all the while love and pain become one and the same in the eyes of a wounded child. Who wrote that lyric? I want to thank you.

[Roger Capps]

Great. Yeah.

[Pat Benatar]

That lyric was the first time I felt somebody understood what I was going through.

[Roger Capps]

Oh, no.

[Pat Benatar]

Oh, good. Thank you for that. Yeah, I love that song.

[Roger Capps]

We hear that a lot from people. I bet you do. Hurt and wounded. Yeah.

[Pat Benatar]

I'm getting chills just talking about it because that was the.

[Roger Capps]

The line that gets me is, be a good little boy and you get a new toy. Tell grandma you fell off the swing. That is. That just rips.

[Pat Benatar]

Thank you for that. Because it's hard to explain and obviously we live in different times, but back then there was so little information if you were being abused that just somebody acknowledging. Because when you would go to your family back then, they'd say, well, that's what happens. Or that's how we were raised. You go to the neighbor kids, and they were all getting their asses kicked, too. So to hear somebody on a record that I admired singing about what I.

[Roger Capps]

Was going through was like, whoa, that's the connection. That's fantastic.

[Neil Giraldo]

About this song was that Hell Is.

[Pat Benatar]

For Children is the song Hell is for Children.

[Neil Giraldo]

The incarnation of this song happened when we were in New York and Roger Capps, who was our bass player for many years there, we were reading. There was a serial article that came out in the Times for a couple of weekends. Neither of us had ever heard about this happening. We didn't experience. I didn't know anybody that.

[Pat Benatar]

Are you talking about sort of abuse, ritual abuse, or just kids being abused?

[Neil Giraldo]

Just anything. Any part of abuse. I didn't. I mean. I mean, kids got spanked. I never heard about the horrors of, like, abusing children. I mean, he. You know, we grew up in, like, really good families. You know what I'm saying? We didn't know any of this stuff. And I was horrified. So what do I do when I'm. When anything influences me like that? I just start writing. Like, I write, I just write. I write, I write. And when we got most of it, Roger wrote. Of course, Roger wrote a lot of it as well. And we handed it over to Spider. We said, can you make this. Can you make the pain in these words happen? With that guitar can you make this arrangement do this? And he said, gimme it. And that's what we did.

[Roger Capps]

Well, melodically, it was a whole scope. It was meant to start off real somber, and then you start getting a little angry, and then you're really off. That's kind of the whole. It works. Yeah.

[Neil Giraldo]

In the beginning, we had two things happen, which was really interesting. We had the religious right boycotting our concerts.

[Roger Capps]

Okay.

[Pat Benatar]

I didn't know this part. They were protesting outside because you were calling out child abuse.

[Neil Giraldo]

Yes. You know what Ted Cruz just did, right? You know what he did? Ted Cruz. I don't know. A couple of months ago.

[Roger Capps]

Come a year by now, maybe it is. I don't know.

[Neil Giraldo]

He's talking about Biden and, you know, and blah, blah, blah. Biden's this. And he's like the evildoer and all this kind of stuff. And it's. He said it's like. Like it. He says, picture Biden howling at the moon, having Pat Makhtar sing Hell is for Children. I was like, you.

[Roger Capps]

It said it literally like, hell is for children.

[Neil Giraldo]

This is why the religious right boycotted. They protested at our concerts.

[Roger Capps]

They burned the records.

[Neil Giraldo]

In the meantime, while this was happening, we were getting bags of mail. Our post office was like, what do you want us to do with this? It was like being Santa Claus. That's how much mail we got from people like yourself. What you just said.

[Pat Benatar]

Yeah. It's interesting, right?

[Roger Capps]

Yeah.

[Pat Benatar]

Now, of course, with these things are talked about so openly. In fact, just to give you some relatability, when I started talking about child abuse in my songs in the early 90s, I was accused of using as a marketing gimmick.

[Roger Capps]

Oh, yeah.

[Neil Giraldo]

Oh, no.

[Pat Benatar]

And then I would. And even to this day, it still happens. Not so much anymore. But people will ask me to qualify the abuse.

[Roger Capps]

Oh, that's ridiculous.

[Neil Giraldo]

They'll say, like, how.

[Roger Capps]

That's ridiculous.

[Pat Benatar]

How bad was it? And I said, well, you know, nobody tore my arm off and beat me over the head with it, but are we doing the abuse Olympics? Like, am I supposed to win a gold medal?

[Neil Giraldo]

Yeah. What amount? What amount?

[Pat Benatar]

Yeah. I even had a horrific experience where a family member. I told this person about a lot of stuff that I've been through, and they gave me a book about a boy who was horribly abused. I think it was called, like, a boy called it or something. And the abuse was like. It was so shocking with this poor child. Went through and. But I remember reading the book and thinking, okay, that happened to me. There was stuff in There, like, you know, you go days without food or being locked out of your house in the cold, all these weird. And I was like, okay, that happened to me. And about. There were nine things in the book. This person certainly had it worse than I do. But there were nine things in the book that I'd been through, like, you know, like a check mark. And so after I finished reading the book, the family member said, did you. Did you like that book that I got you? And I said, oh, yeah, it really, really touched me, you know. And they said, yeah, I thought it would help. And I started kind of explaining what I just explained to you. And they go, oh, no, no, no, you misunderstood. I wanted you to understand that you got. You. You shouldn't be complaining.

[Neil Giraldo]

Oh my.

[Pat Benatar]

Because. Because this person had it worse than you. So that's. I've done a lot of different times, advocacy for abused kids. But what I always say is, you know, if you've been abused, absolutely, you don't have to. There's nothing to prove.

[Roger Capps]

No, of course not. This is ridiculous.

[Neil Giraldo]

To even ask like that would be acceptable is insane. And it's not like a contest. Like, what are we talking about? That's insane.

[Pat Benatar]

I. I mean, it's probably as short as the last few years. I've had like big reporters ask me to qualify my abuse.

[Roger Capps]

Still. Are you talking about it?

[Neil Giraldo]

That's insane.

[Roger Capps]

Oh, that's ridiculous.

[Neil Giraldo]

That's crazy.

[Roger Capps]

That's ridiculous.

[Pat Benatar]

Well, we live in a crazy business.

[Roger Capps]

Yeah, I know. That's no good.

[Pat Benatar]

So precious time, now you're producing.

[Roger Capps]

Yeah, well, I was. I was producing as well.

[Pat Benatar]

Now your name's on the record.

[Roger Capps]

Yeah, now they said it was okay to put my name on it. Yeah, put on the record.

[Neil Giraldo]

But he was doing it before.

[Pat Benatar]

There's it. I'm not saying it stops being rock, but there seems to be a shift towards maybe a wider palette. Was that deliberate?

[Roger Capps]

Yeah, of course.

[Pat Benatar]

So what was your aim?

[Roger Capps]

I. I didn't want to be 8th note guitar driven songs anymore. There was. I wanted it to be. I wanted to spread out, open up. I want to use different instruments. I want different rhythms. I play drums. I love drums. I used to play drums to Simon and Garfunkel records because they had no drums. So I used to play my own rhythm.

[Pat Benatar]

Yeah, yeah.

[Roger Capps]

So everything's rhythm to me.

[Pat Benatar]

Okay. Right.

[Roger Capps]

And I wanted to explore more rhythm with. In different instruments doing it, you know. Yeah, yeah, I love that.

[Pat Benatar]

And what was your.

[Neil Giraldo]

Yeah, you know, we were grown up now.

[Roger Capps]

She was cool. I mean, I. After we do a record, the next day I would write something and I'd completely different and maybe hand it to the record company and go, why can't you just do the same thing again? I go, no, no. I want to keep changing and keep evolving.

[Pat Benatar]

Yeah. I didn't know if that was, you.

[Roger Capps]

Know, that was intentional because we're all.

[Pat Benatar]

Been in that situation where somebody's trying to push you never.

[Neil Giraldo]

They can't ever do anything.

[Pat Benatar]

Well, now that I've met you, I get that.

[Roger Capps]

The record company turned down many things that I handed in that became hits.

[Neil Giraldo]

Sure.

[Roger Capps]

Because I refused to change them. Because I wanted to walk me through.

[Pat Benatar]

That process a little bit. Because I think I like talking about these things publicly because these are things we talk about privately in the music business. Imagine you're on top, you've got hit records, you're on mtv, you're young, you're going the right direction. And there's some guy in the office going, nah, nah, I don't feel it.

[Roger Capps]

That's what happened a lot. I'll give an example with Love is a Battlefield is. I had the whole song done in my head, the whole thing. Like the architectural look of it. I had the rhythm. I had all this kind of thing going on. It was my first day. I had a Lyndrum. I just was randomly playing a beat on it. I made a mistake, made an eight bar phrase, a seven bar phrase. I liked the rhythm of it. I was starting to build it, but I had all the parts. I had everything all working. And even our engineer co produced with me. Peter Coleman was ready to tell me that I think you need to listen to record company. And I don't think. I think we need to do this some different way. Same. Yeah, a different way. I says, I'm not gonna do that, Pete. He goes, okay, let me listen to it tonight. So he goes home, he never drinks. He doesn't drink. He drinks half a bottle of cognac. He realizes as he's with those altic speakers. You remember those Altix. As big as he had those in his. Huh? He played the demo. Not the demo. He played where we were at with it, right. And he finally realized, went, oh my God, I think Neil's on to something. So he came in the next day. He goes, I support you for whatever we need. So I wouldn't. I refuse to.

[Pat Benatar]

I covered that song once. You probably have never heard it, but never heard it. It was bootlegged out, but it's. I did for a movie I like.

[Roger Capps]

Oh yeah, that's cool.

[Pat Benatar]

I did this. Really. I tried to find it because I. I thought I'd mention. And if I could, I could play free on a phone, but I can't find it, but, oh, I'd love to hear it. I'll send it to you. No problem. But it's like a really sad acoustic version.

[Neil Giraldo]

Well, that's.

[Pat Benatar]

If you slow it.

[Roger Capps]

That was kind of. I didn't know that began like that. But then I heard this thing. I. I heard it quicker. I just. It just. It just happened.

[Pat Benatar]

Yeah. Because as a fan, when you guys went there, I didn't get it. I. Now. I think it's. Now I love it. I think it's amazing. Here's a tip.

[Roger Capps]

Here's what I did a lot. I love doing this. I do. This is. I. I believe that life of records have a longer. Your shelf life. If you don't like it when you.

[Pat Benatar]

First hear it, that's interesting.

[Roger Capps]

It's really important because you're unsure. You can't understand what's going on. Like, what is he thinking about? Like, what is it? And then you listen to it again and go, wait a minute. What's going on here?

[Pat Benatar]

Yeah.

[Roger Capps]

Then if it works, they love it for life.

[Pat Benatar]

Yeah.

[Neil Giraldo]

Like Cilantro.

[Roger Capps]

It's sort of like Cilantro, but see.

[Pat Benatar]

Like, this is my own version. But, like, when I first heard song, it didn't get it. And obviously it's a big hit. And I saw the video and the right crazy stuff, and. And then when I was doing this soundtrack in 2001 for a movie called Spun, it was about a bunch of meth addicts. And the director was like, what do you want to do musically? And I said, because I'd done enough drugs that I thought, what would people want to listen to if they're coming off a drug? So in my mind, it was acoustic, but I didn't want to do Crosby, Stills and Nash.

[Roger Capps]

Correct.

[Pat Benatar]

So I had this idea. Now, of course, we hear it everywhere we go to cafes, but it was the idea of taking popular songs but kind of making them kind of sad acoustic songs.

[Roger Capps]

Sure.

[Pat Benatar]

So that song kind of popped out of the ether of me. And then I did this cover originally.

[Roger Capps]

Written as a ballad, as about slow, slow, slow down.

[Neil Giraldo]

But then I'm like. And he's like, no.

[Roger Capps]

And I go. It's just like. I just heard Bo Diddley. Bo Diddley on some sort of.

[Pat Benatar]

Well, it works.

[Roger Capps]

Medication. Yeah. But I just did. With the Lynn joke.

[Neil Giraldo]

You told him that?

[Roger Capps]

I just did.

[Neil Giraldo]

I didn't hear that.

[Pat Benatar]

You were thinking about your contract.

[Roger Capps]

I did it when we belong to the same thing. A lot of rhythm, wacky. Like, why do you have to. Why can't you just play on the keyboard? Why do you have to have all this stuff going on? That's what I do.

[Neil Giraldo]

They were constantly in our face all the time.

[Pat Benatar]

That's so crazy to me. I mean, I went through the same things.

[Roger Capps]

It's all the same.

[Neil Giraldo]

They're in your face. And we gave them a control on the. On the console. On the console that we say, well, you know, you just. You know, you think you can change a few things. It was attached to nothing. And they would go. And they would go. And we come back and they go, what do you think? We go, you know, it's actually an improvement. That's really great. And meanwhile, they did absolutely nothing. But they drove us nuts. But we never. It was always like this to me. You know what I mean? Like, really.

[Pat Benatar]

Yeah, I get you. Yeah. No, I'm sorry. I'm just in my own head. Cause it's like those experiences just always blow my mind.

[Roger Capps]

They're all the same. They're all the same. Everybody goes through them.

[Pat Benatar]

It's just crazy.

[Roger Capps]

It's crazy.

[Neil Giraldo]

But you know, what if we're the artists and they're not, and they're the car salesman, and I get that. And they're really good at that. But if they were us, they would be doing it, but they're not, and they're never gonna be us. And they don't get it. Ever.

[Pat Benatar]

Yeah. So as your relationship goes public, or it is public, how is that sort of. How did you navigate that? And I'm saying it from the context of, you know, we had a female when we started in our van for the first, you know, 10, 12 years. And I saw all this weird sexist stuff go on. So I can only imagine what people were putting on you. Both just as a female, but also a female in a relationship.

[Roger Capps]

Correct.

[Pat Benatar]

Well, I can. Let me.

[Roger Capps]

Sorry.

[Pat Benatar]

I mean, this is a compliment. When I think of you two together, I don't just like. I can't think of any gossip. I can't. I've never heard any gossip on you guys.

[Roger Capps]

We could start something if you want.

[Pat Benatar]

Okay. But I'm saying you guys have had. Your relationship is very quiet, right?

[Roger Capps]

It is quiet. We try to keep it.

[Pat Benatar]

I can't think of a single thing that, you know. You know, people talk in studios. I've never heard an unkind word about either of you. I've never heard like, oh, this or that.

[Neil Giraldo]

Like it's by design.

[Roger Capps]

They used to say, like.

[Pat Benatar]

So that's kind of what I'm after. What were they saying? Because they must have been curious.

[Roger Capps]

I think in the beginning they, they called me. What was I?

[Neil Giraldo]

Svengali.

[Roger Capps]

It was like Svengali. It was. Who was the guy with the. The pretty girl wife?

[Pat Benatar]

Rick Ocasek?

[Roger Capps]

No, no, no, he was. What's that guy's name? Was a director. It was a director and they, they called me that guy. I can't remember the name. His director and his wife was real pretty. Was it 10? Was the movie called 10? Oh, Derek.

[Pat Benatar]

Oh, John Derek. So you were John Derek. Well, that's nice.

[Roger Capps]

John Derek.

[Pat Benatar]

John was like kind of like the Pink Panther movie.

[Roger Capps]

Yes. Yeah, John Derek.

[Pat Benatar]

That was a terrible comparison.

[Roger Capps]

Yeah. No, but that, like this is the guy that was kind of doing all this stuff and he was controlling and doing all this, you know.

[Pat Benatar]

Okay, so that's. So there's a perfect example. So what's the implication? You're some puppet robot and he's really the.

[Neil Giraldo]

Yeah, for like eight seconds.

[Roger Capps]

I mean, I wouldn't let that lasted.

[Neil Giraldo]

Eight seconds because I was like, I.

[Roger Capps]

Wouldn'T let that be. That's just, that's just silliness.

[Pat Benatar]

So when he starts doing this other productions, I assume you're supportive with this because like Rick Springfield and Of course. And all this other stuff.

[Neil Giraldo]

Sure.

[Pat Benatar]

So I just talked to Rick Springfield a couple days ago.

[Roger Capps]

Yeah, it's fantastic.

[Pat Benatar]

And he mentioned you.

[Neil Giraldo]

He's a good friend.

[Pat Benatar]

Yeah. What a sweetheart. But again, like, so now when I think of Jesse's girl and knowing you're on it, and I never knew that until the other day, it's like, well, duh, now I hear you.

[Roger Capps]

Sure. Yeah. It's kind of funny. It's the story of my life. It was the only number one single. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, I've done a ton of stuff, but I don't go around making noise with stuff.

[Pat Benatar]

I didn't know you'd done this song and I love this song. John Wayne Change.

[Roger Capps]

Oh, yeah.

[Pat Benatar]

A producer saw that you did it. I went back and listened to it, cuz I was like, is that this? And I was like, I that what you did, I love in that song. But I never knew that was you.

[Roger Capps]

Yeah, yeah. Well, that was his first solo record. And you know anybody I've ever worked with.

[Pat Benatar]

Was he from the babies, John?

[Roger Capps]

Yeah, babies. But everybody I've ever worked with, they were. I've never had a falling out with anybody, you know, I produce a record for them. We're still friends, you know, he worked hard.

[Neil Giraldo]

He did Steve Forbert. He did so many. Did you do the Dellords?

[Roger Capps]

Oh yeah, Dellor, sure.

[Pat Benatar]

Dillards.

[Roger Capps]

Dellords.

[Pat Benatar]

Oh, sorry. I like the Dillards, if you remember.

[Roger Capps]

No, no, the Dictators.

[Neil Giraldo]

The Dictators turned into.

[Roger Capps]

My good brother friend Scott Kepner was with the Dictators. He formed Dellord's great band.

[Pat Benatar]

So you're also having success as a producer. Was that any. Not tension. I'm not looking for gossip. It's like did you feel like you had to make choices or. No, it was outside of your professional relationship.

[Roger Capps]

Anyway, the only choices I made, you know, I. I, Ozzy wanted me to make a record for him and I. I wanted to do it. That. How was that now?

[Pat Benatar]

When was that?

[Roger Capps]

It was right after that record. It was called Howl at the Moon. Was that the name of the record?

[Pat Benatar]

Yeah, Bark at the Moon.

[Roger Capps]

Bark at the Moon. It was going to be the next record and I couldn't do the record because we were going on the road and I. I wanted to give him enough time. I was talking back then, I was talking about doing a real life loops, but not, not digital loops. Yeah, just a lot of different creativity in the. In the process of making a record and we got on really well and I didn't do that record. I really wanted to do it but I couldn't because we had to go on the road. Yeah, so that was the pro. The problem was I didn't have the time.

[Pat Benatar]

That's kind of what I was after is like I didn't have the balance of choices.

[Roger Capps]

I had a band I really liked too. I wanted to do too. I didn't have time. Swimming pool cues, do you remember them?

[Pat Benatar]

I do remember. That was kind of my generation, right?

[Roger Capps]

Yeah, yeah, they were cool. I like those guys and gals.

[Pat Benatar]

It seems around 85 that your output obviously collectively your output becomes a little bit more sparse. Is that. Was there a reason for that child?

[Neil Giraldo]

We have our first show.

[Pat Benatar]

So. Is that because you want to devote more time to your family or is it.

[Roger Capps]

Yeah, we still made a record every year until 89, I believe.

[Neil Giraldo]

Yeah, we were contracted to do it every nine months.

[Pat Benatar]

But it seems you can feel somewhere around 85 there's this change.

[Roger Capps]

Yeah, we changed. We went into a different direction but.

[Neil Giraldo]

It just did this really cool thing. I mean it did. It was never going back to what it was before. Never. But we did.

[Pat Benatar]

Can you explain that a little bit Yes.

[Neil Giraldo]

I mean, it was because we had a baby now and you talk about sexism. There was no handbook for this. Okay, let me tell you about this. And they. Because we were contracted to do a record every nine months, they sat me down. I remember it was terrible. I was breastfeeding. That baby was probably. How old is she? Four weeks, five, six weeks old. We have to have a lunch and they're going to talk to me. Now I'm breastfeeding and I'm like freaking out. And I got it all padded in my shirt because I'm going to have to leave my child for the first time. And it's not even two months. And they're telling me that, okay, that's great you guys had a baby and all that, but chop, chop. Okay? So we're at lunch and you can't talk about a baby as you know, because you have them with your wife when you are breastfeeding. Because the minute you talk about the child, your body reacts. I had to go in the bathroom of the goddamn restaurant we were in and wring out everything because I was experiencing letdown and there was no slack. They didn't care. They didn't care about that. I had a newborn. And all they knew is it was time to go back in the studio. It was the only time I was violent in the studio. I threw a stool through the glass window in Capitol Records, probably.

[Roger Capps]

I'm pretty passive, see, I blocked it out.

[Neil Giraldo]

Evade us or put us on extension and that. Because.

[Pat Benatar]

Explain extensions.

[Neil Giraldo]

Extension means that if you don't do a record in a certain amount of time, they will freeze all of your royalties and everything else. And then the contract extends.

[Pat Benatar]

Extends to you.

[Neil Giraldo]

Okay, so. Which is not good. And I had our baby outside in a Winnebago with my parents watching that child so that I could go in there and make that goddamn record. And you know what the name of that record was? 7 the hard way. So talk about sexism. Oh, yeah, and misogyny right there. No slack. And I talked to Chrissy. I talked to Chrissy backstage and I said to her, she had Natalie. And I said, how are you doing this? And she said, I'm not. Because that was the part. Like I had conquered all that boys club and everything else. But this next part. Oh, no, this is something else altogether. And that took time. So that's why that slowed down, because I had to navigate, learn how to do this, go in guns blazing and figure out how to make them stop and be able to go in there and do what we had to do.

[Pat Benatar]

Yeah. And your side of this equation, are you just working?

[Roger Capps]

I'm just working. I'm so deep. I still am to this day. I'm just so deep into that. I used to have a philosophy. It's wrong. It's wrong. When it was passive and assertive. In the studio, I'm very assertive. She's very passive in the studio. In real life, outside of studio, I'm very passive. She's very assertive. I used to think that was the right. I was thinking that's the right way, but it's really not, because you got to kind of be equal.

[Neil Giraldo]

But I mean, he was supportive, but support always. It wasn't his fight.

[Pat Benatar]

It was my fight, so. Because I think it's important, because I think the music business is still grappling with, for lack of a better word, balance.

[Neil Giraldo]

The universe is grappling with balance.

[Pat Benatar]

Okay? But let's stick to the music business.

[Roger Capps]

Don't go political.

[Pat Benatar]

We can't solve all.

[Neil Giraldo]

I wasn't going political.

[Roger Capps]

That was leaning.

[Pat Benatar]

No, no, I didn't mean it that way. I'm saying is. What I'm saying is, is because you're so respected. I think the question. I think to ask is, what would have been the optimal circumstance in that? And just hit pause on that one second. Because people in the music business are just now starting to grapple with mental health issues. Like, look, how many people in my generation are gone and were gone by way too early and would be out there, by the way, to all you capitalists would still be out there making money.

[Neil Giraldo]

That's true.

[Roger Capps]

Yeah, that's true.

[Pat Benatar]

And they gave two with those people driving off cliffs.

[Roger Capps]

Yeah, true, right. No question. I felt that yesterday.

[Pat Benatar]

So I have an answer. If you ask me what should be the position of the music business vis a vis mental health, they finally started at least dealing with the drug issues. So the question I want to ask you is, what would it for you as a mother, especially young mother, what would have been the optimal circumstance for you so that it helps us sort of figure out how to do that going forward collectively?

[Neil Giraldo]

You cannot separate this from the worldview. And I'm not talking about politics, okay? This is the worldview. It's like jumbo shrimp, okay? You can't separate the music business. The music business is just a tree.

[Pat Benatar]

How does jumbo shrimp get into that, though?

[Neil Giraldo]

Because it's an oxymoron. It's like, you can't be. You can't. You are still. No matter. I don't care what you do for a living. It is. You can have it all, but you sometimes cannot have it all at once.

[Pat Benatar]

Okay.

[Neil Giraldo]

Okay, so this is my point. This is what happens. I don't care what you do for a living. If you are the female and you are having the babies, there is a path that doesn't change. I don't care who you are or what you do.

[Pat Benatar]

Okay, so practically time off.

[Neil Giraldo]

Yes. If you would have given me six months. If you would have just been a little bit kinder and more compassionate. It didn't even like. It was like, okay, you know, like, get a nanny, you know, basically.

[Pat Benatar]

I see.

[Neil Giraldo]

It was the most misogyny.

[Pat Benatar]

I don't want to say what they're doing now.

[Neil Giraldo]

Right. I know, but it was disgusting. It was disgusting. And, you know, for being their premier person, it didn't matter a goddamn bit. Nothing.

[Pat Benatar]

That's hard to hear.

[Roger Capps]

Yeah. It's real.

[Pat Benatar]

Is it true you haven't made an album since 2003?

[Neil Giraldo]

Correct.

[Roger Capps]

Maybe. Yeah.

[Pat Benatar]

That's what I saw. And I was like. I had a hard time believing it.

[Roger Capps]

Seems like a long time.

[Pat Benatar]

Yeah, that's a long time. Over 20 years.

[Roger Capps]

I know.

[Neil Giraldo]

In doing it either.

[Pat Benatar]

Okay, tell me why, though.

[Roger Capps]

Yeah, I'm still. I mean, I'm still. Right. I still write a ton. A lot. I did film scores. I do films and stuff.

[Neil Giraldo]

We have 150 songs written.

[Roger Capps]

Yeah. I think. I. I don't know. It's like, I don't see. I don't see, like, I can't put this into words. I don't see like a 360 view for a whole record. I don't see that. I don't know.

[Pat Benatar]

Is it circumstantial for you?

[Roger Capps]

Like, it's hard to articulate this. It's like, I want a record that. Where song one to song thirteen all makes sense in its togetherness. And I don't have that. Cause it's so diverse. There's so much diversity. I don't.

[Pat Benatar]

Is it because of the changes in the business or the changes in the music?

[Roger Capps]

No, no, just us. It has nothing to do with the business. I don't care.

[Pat Benatar]

I'm just trying to understand.

[Roger Capps]

No, not that. It's just from an artistic point of view, there's no path for this. So for that.

[Pat Benatar]

But tell me what that means.

[Neil Giraldo]

It means that the amount of time.

[Roger Capps]

Well, that's different for her to me, so.

[Neil Giraldo]

But I mean, I'm saying this for both of us. The amount of time and consideration and everything, to give out that much art that no one is going to hear.

[Pat Benatar]

Okay, but see, this is where I don't disagree with you.

[Roger Capps]

Yeah.

[Pat Benatar]

I don't believe that.

[Roger Capps]

I'm not believing that.

[Neil Giraldo]

That's my motivation.

[Pat Benatar]

No, no, no. But I want to parry with you a little because I'm curious about this.

[Neil Giraldo]

So I.

[Pat Benatar]

Because I'm in a similar circumstance.

[Neil Giraldo]

Yes.

[Pat Benatar]

You know what I mean? Because we're all facing. We're all looking at the same horizon.

[Roger Capps]

You would be. No question. I understood.

[Pat Benatar]

Okay.

[Neil Giraldo]

It's not a loss for me.

[Pat Benatar]

Could I argue with you as a fan?

[Neil Giraldo]

No, I understand that part. I do. And I understand.

[Pat Benatar]

Look, can I give you a slightly different take on that?

[Neil Giraldo]

Yes.

[Pat Benatar]

Okay. I'm asking permission.

[Roger Capps]

You got permission.

[Pat Benatar]

Thank you.

[Neil Giraldo]

It's only because I'm older. It's. Okay.

[Pat Benatar]

Let me say this as sort of an overall comment because I've struggled with the same issue. So let's say we've all looked down the same telescope lens and we go, hey, back in the day, at least there was this straight line, do this, do this, do this, get it right. You win and you feel it, and you're there. Now, as we say often in my group, who knows what success is anymore? The business is basically reduced to who can sell tickets.

[Roger Capps]

That's what it is. That's correct.

[Pat Benatar]

Music has just become a marketing tool to sell tickets. Correct. We grew up in a time where it was the other way.

[Roger Capps]

The other way around. No question.

[Pat Benatar]

Okay, so I understand the dynamics that you're.

[Roger Capps]

Yes.

[Pat Benatar]

But here's my one argument. And please argue with me if you disagree. I think that we all grew up with I hope I die before I get old.

[Roger Capps]

Yep. No question.

[Pat Benatar]

Right?

[Roger Capps]

Definitely.

[Pat Benatar]

We've all blown past that. And I'm not talking about, hey, I hope I can go see you guys play these great songs one more time. I'm talking about a new way of thinking because in many ways, we're tasked with how to change the way the business works because no one before us was put in this circumstance. So in many ways, we're the first people on this new planet, which is called social media over here and lack of a music business over here. So here's my one argument to you. I would be curious to hear from you where you're at right now.

[Roger Capps]

Correct.

[Pat Benatar]

And I don't give a if nobody else cares, because there's only one you and only one you. And your partnership is valuable. And I'm not talking even about fans. Your voice in the wilderness of this says, I don't give a F. Just like how you started. I don't give a. What you think.

[Roger Capps]

Correct.

[Pat Benatar]

I'm gonna do this because this is what I believe in. Now, if you say you don't need it, that's different.

[Neil Giraldo]

I don't need it. But I agree with you. Here's. I agree with you that I think it is still valuable. I think that what we do is unique to us. Okay? However, the mechanism to get that where it needs to go.

[Pat Benatar]

I don't like you talking about streaming.

[Roger Capps]

No.

[Neil Giraldo]

Any of it. Because my point is that if I was. If we did this record and we handed it to you to take to your house, I would love that. The idea that I have to hand this over to someone who's gonna now what you're gonna, like, market it, like, oh, it's a comeback.

[Pat Benatar]

But, you know, there's different business models, and I don't know about that. Okay, good.

[Neil Giraldo]

I do.

[Pat Benatar]

Cause that's what we're doing.

[Neil Giraldo]

It is my qualm. My qualm is do not make this, like, here is a dinosaur partnership that we're gonna try to make, like, important today. Okay? Cause that's not what it is. It's important. Cause it just is. You know what I mean? So don't, like, put all this other crap that you're gonna put. I don't even know how to navigate what they're doing. I can learn. I'm really smart. But the point is, I don't want, like, I am a principled person. You can't make me. You can't make. I don't already like what you're saying. They're doing stuff. What are they doing now? They're putting our records out on colored vinyl. I'm like, oh, for God's sake. Because their only reason to do anything is financial, and my only reason to do anything is artistic.

[Pat Benatar]

But can I raise my hand now and tell you that I'm putting out my own records on colored vinyl?

[Neil Giraldo]

But that's the way you're doing it.

[Pat Benatar]

But I'm saying you can do that too, if you want.

[Roger Capps]

No question.

[Neil Giraldo]

But their motivation. I hate the motivation.

[Pat Benatar]

But I'm saying you can cut that corner crowd out. Now, I know that if you want to.

[Neil Giraldo]

That's true, but I. We. I mean, they only.

[Pat Benatar]

I don't think you guys need to check. So why don't you just do what you want to do?

[Roger Capps]

Correct.

[Neil Giraldo]

That's it. That is what I want to do. I want to only do what we have, and then I'll decide if it ever should be heard by anyone.

[Pat Benatar]

Okay. That's all. I'm not trying to belabor it.

[Roger Capps]

Yeah. Well, just two different thoughts here. She thinks differently than I do.

[Pat Benatar]

So tell me how you think.

[Roger Capps]

Yeah, well. Yeah, yeah. There's a difference here. I'm not afraid of anything. I'm not afraid of who's going to hear it, who's not going to hear. I don't give a. About any of that. Really don't. Doesn't matter to me because all the.

[Neil Giraldo]

I just don't like it.

[Roger Capps]

I know. Hold on a second, please. All the emotional success, not money and not anything, but the emotional success that I get from being brave and being innovative. Not for the reason of just being innovative, because I think it's funny and like, oh, look at me. Not that. It's not that at all. It's like, how crazy can I really get? What can I really do? How could I live up to my heroes like Brian Wilson? How could I get in that club? I want to be there with that. So I have that fire. I have that thing.

[Pat Benatar]

That's what you need.

[Roger Capps]

With Patricia, it's a little different because I'm really left field. I'm really left field. And when we get in it. Sometimes Patricia has an opinion these days, more often than not. Where she'll fight that. In the past, she would fight it just for a short, short, very short time. Now the time's more extended.

[Neil Giraldo]

You can't just be like crazy.

[Roger Capps]

But see, I don't. You have to prove it. I won't prove it.

[Neil Giraldo]

But you did. You just proved it. You just showed me that.

[Roger Capps]

I did show you something.

[Neil Giraldo]

That's right. And what did I do? Tell me what happened.

[Roger Capps]

Yeah, you gave me a lot of. About it. But you did do it for it.

[Neil Giraldo]

Because you gotta prove it.

[Roger Capps]

Yeah.

[Pat Benatar]

Please. I want you to finish.

[Roger Capps]

But I think you understand what I'm talking about. Cause we're kind of thinking the same way. Cause I'm not afraid of that. I want to be brave. I really do. And I'm working on a Christmas record. And I've been working on it for about 100 years. Where it's diverse, different people putting people in uncomfortable situations. So if there's like a country singer, let me take that country singer, put them in a very awkward position. Maybe a New Orleans Cajun based song, Right? All these awkward things to really kind of mix it up a little bit. And it's working really well. The songs I love, all original songs. They're all interesting. It's all about. It's not like Frosty The Snowman. Not that there's anything wrong with, but it's about the time of year of what happens during the holidays. When it gets towards the end of the year, people's relationships either break up or get stronger.

[Pat Benatar]

It's an intense time.

[Roger Capps]

The first of the year. They're gonna take care of themselves. They're gonna take care of all the emotional things that they destroy. All these things, all that goes on. That's what those songs are about. So it's not a Christmas record, per se. Right. But that's a reason I mentioned that is that's different than working this way because I have the diversity to go in. I'll go in with you, Billy. I have an idea for a Christmas song. If you want to write together, let's write it together. But here, this is where I want it to live. That's exciting to me and I will always kind of do that. But this is a little more challenge.

[Pat Benatar]

Well, point, if you don't mind. Yes. The other thing I've been surprised by, and I think you can only figure it out when you get there, is. And I've seen this thing happen using my generation as an example. Gen X is half, almost maybe 55, 60% of the population of the generation before and after. So Gen X, I think, might be the only generation that never has a president in the history of our country. I read that somewhere else.

[Roger Capps]

Oh, really? That's interesting.

[Pat Benatar]

Gen X doesn't have a lot of power. Gen X's one flash of power was 90s grunge.

[Neil Giraldo]

Right.

[Pat Benatar]

90 to 96. That was our kind of moment. And then we all blew up and died. I was on the blew up when I didn't die.

[Roger Capps]

But you did die. That's good. Thank God.

[Pat Benatar]

Thank you, Jesus.

[Roger Capps]

I was wondering the first thing I was gonna say. I was happy that we're still stand. That was the right thing I was going to tell you.

[Pat Benatar]

Okay, thank you. God bless. But this is kind of the point I'm trying to make to you collectively. The thing that surprises me is as we're rewriting the rules of rock and roll, partially because whatever's happened in the last 10 years has elongated the interest in what we are good at. Even if it's just because of a song we did years ago.

[Roger Capps]

Correct.

[Pat Benatar]

There's something resonant that's happening that's very different than ever happened before.

[Roger Capps]

Understood.

[Pat Benatar]

We all remember Sha Na Na. You know, it was like looking back at the Greasers and the Doo Wop and all that stuff. And we've all had that moment where it's like the 80s are in and now people are telling me the 90s are in. Whatever. What I'm surprised by. And this is a shift that's really only happened in the last two years. There's something about perseverance that is for the first time in my life, become more powerful than the catalyst.

[Neil Giraldo]

That's. And which is my point.

[Pat Benatar]

Okay, so we're on the same wavelength.

[Neil Giraldo]

We are. Here's what you just said for me, because I am a forward thinking person. Like I don't. I am. Right. I like to stay here, right where I am. But the next thing that I really like to do is go forward. I have. There is nothing about going backwards that is appealing to me.

[Pat Benatar]

But that's what I'm saying.

[Neil Giraldo]

Right.

[Pat Benatar]

Okay, so we're on the same point.

[Neil Giraldo]

Is correct. I have no intention of doing anything that resembles what we did. And unless we do that going forward, I have no interest.

[Pat Benatar]

Okay, so last thing. Songs are always important. We know that. We live in nice houses because great.

[Roger Capps]

Songs gotta have songs.

[Pat Benatar]

But I'm telling you for the first time in my lifetime, and I've watched rock pretty good for 50 years, somehow the people that have earned some sort of respect, organic respect maybe is the right word.

[Roger Capps]

Okay.

[Pat Benatar]

It's not about legend. It's not about pioneer. It's about something about. You know what? Now that I look back, I realize that your voice and your voice and your voice has an authenticity that has lasted my life. And something about that voice back in the mix is more important to them than whether or not they like the song. Does that make sense the way you're saying it?

[Roger Capps]

Yes, I understand that.

[Pat Benatar]

So I would encourage you to at least think about it from the standpoint of you choosing to sing your song the way you want to sing it. And I don't care, whatever genre it is, that ultimately in this moment in time in this culture is a powerful statement to people of endurance and hope. And my life isn't over just because I crossed some sort of meridian line.

[Roger Capps]

Correct.

[Pat Benatar]

Because we all grew up with hope. I die before I get old.

[Roger Capps]

No question. Yeah, that's.

[Pat Benatar]

Now over here, the money people are like, well, look at the Stones and look at Fleetwood Mac. That's where their brains go.

[Roger Capps]

Correct.

[Pat Benatar]

My brain goes to. If I'm going to open the door and let all that in or even poke my head out the door, if I don't have something new to say, why am I bothering?

[Roger Capps]

Yeah, you have to be. You have to have something new.

[Neil Giraldo]

To say. My problem is I have literally 150 songs written.

[Roger Capps]

We got a lot of songs.

[Neil Giraldo]

I mean, I have a lot to say, always. But you know, it's gotta be. It's gotta be forward thinking. And right now he's a maniac. So there's no doubt in my mind that he will not get that, you know, But I will give him these words. He will make it crazy. Like I want. I just don't know if I'm willing to. It's so much. But we tour every year. Every year. We're out every year, even for just. Even if it's seven weeks, whatever, we still go out. And I still adore performing. I still love them. And I see half of them are very interested in anything you want to give them. Like, give me anything. You could sing the phone book, do anything. I don't care. And then there's the other group, smaller, that only want you to stay locked in time. I have no interest in this. None.

[Roger Capps]

We never did. I mean, nobody. Nobody really does.

[Neil Giraldo]

But I know because I am a live performer. I watch them every day.

[Pat Benatar]

Yeah.

[Neil Giraldo]

So I'm like, well, if I give you a whole record of stuff that sounds like something you never heard before, what are you gonna say about that? You know? And I mean. And I personally actually don't care what they say about it. But the truth is, why would I spend that much time doing as much as it takes to create something from scratch? You know, you're gonna take this is a lot out of your life.

[Pat Benatar]

Oh, no, that's what I'm saying. If the argument is, hey, I just. I don't care or I'm past that. But I'm saying if you still, like, your husband is just as passionate as he ever was. And that would be. My argument is.

[Roger Capps]

But that's why I'm right. It's why I'm personal.

[Pat Benatar]

But the fire, I guess it's. Maybe I'm making two esoteric appointments. But the fire is what's attractive, Correct.

[Roger Capps]

Well, I have a personal challenge too. A personal challenge. Because I've always challenged myself with everything I've ever done, anything at all. It's always challenging myself. I like to challenge myself and explain to people what. I hate to use the word rock, Rock and roll music, but to actually show what it could be, not what we know it to be, if you know what I mean.

[Pat Benatar]

I do.

[Roger Capps]

I think, you know, the rap revolution, when that began, that's the real. That's the new rock music. That's where it is.

[Pat Benatar]

I made the same argument, and it's powerful. They did a better job there for 10 or 15 years representing Rock than the rock.

[Roger Capps]

No question. Their lyrics, the power behind them, the whole. The attitude, just everything about it. Rock and roll. People dropped that a long time ago. What were they thinking of? So there is. I would like to be that person that can help. Help kind of not create, but kind of move that forward. I love writing. I love writing songs. I know you probably have some ADD and you. I have some ADD because that's what happens. I love writing. I come up with words, but I don't like to write all the words. I'll come up with a title, a few lines, but melodies. I write melodies all day long, and I write words. All she writes words. I write melodies. And that ADD thing charges, so. So I take the challenge. Yeah, I'm all for the challenge. Mix it up.

[Neil Giraldo]

I mean, my problem with being the. What's the word? Provocateur that I like to be is that when you do it, you got a bunch of babies who don't want you to really do it. They want you to, like, pretend you're doing it. Like, you could be a pretend provocateur, but don't really do it. So, like, when I do it and I do something and they get all their feathers ruffled and everybody, you know, I mean, we're like, where the were you for the last 45 years? What did you actually do?

[Roger Capps]

But you're caring too much about those people. We don't need to care about that.

[Neil Giraldo]

But it is my motivation for not doing.

[Roger Capps]

Oh, that wouldn't.

[Neil Giraldo]

You know what I mean?

[Roger Capps]

That wouldn't stop me.

[Neil Giraldo]

I don't care. I don't. No. Okay. Not that I don't care. I do care. It's not relevant to me.

[Roger Capps]

Okay.

[Neil Giraldo]

Okay. So for me to give that much energy and everything else, I'm always like, really? I don't.

[Pat Benatar]

Best way I can explain it, and I think it's a good way to kind of put the bow around it is we could argue or conversate about every version of it, and we would never know which one of us was right or wrong.

[Roger Capps]

Yeah, there's no right or wrong right there.

[Pat Benatar]

Because outside of sort of general analytics, there's really no right, touchstone point anymore. And I think that what happens is it ends up being almost demotivated, fading.

[Roger Capps]

Well, that's what she's. That's what she's feeling. That's what she's feeling. But, see, I have a problem, too, because I'm thinking, here we are like this, and I'm not Brian Wilson. But where's Brian Wilson now? How come? Why isn't he surfacing? No, no, forget it. Let me stay where I'm at.

[Pat Benatar]

The next Brian Wilson or the original Brian Wilson.

[Roger Capps]

No, the next one. Where's.

[Pat Benatar]

I think that has everything to do with the way the music business is going.

[Roger Capps]

Where's the evolution they've created?

[Pat Benatar]

Sorry, I didn't interrupt you. They've created a model.

[Roger Capps]

I know. It's so big.

[Pat Benatar]

Pop is the only master. They'll pay their light bills with people like us.

[Roger Capps]

Correct.

[Pat Benatar]

Pop is their master.

[Roger Capps]

Correct. I was using that as an example of his genius, of what that was like. They put California on the map. The Beach Boys. Without the Beach Boys, California wouldn't exist like that.

[Pat Benatar]

But if Pat sounds Brian Wilson existed today, he'd be a hipster artist, probably. You see what I'm saying?

[Roger Capps]

Yeah.

[Pat Benatar]

The two modes of the music business are crass commercialism. I don't care what I gotta do. Kill my mother.

[Roger Capps]

Yeah.

[Pat Benatar]

Tune me to infinity. Whatever. And then the hipster class, which is snobby and inward facing. And if you don't have the right T shirt, you're out.

[Roger Capps]

Yeah, yeah, understood.

[Neil Giraldo]

Which is my point.

[Pat Benatar]

Anybody in between those. Doesn't have a country does exist.

[Roger Capps]

I think what I was getting at though, with Brian Wilson is like an evolution where it wouldn't be possible. It's just his brilliance, no matter what it was. Why can't you recreate something not pop, but something from that genius mind that he has? That's what I'm saying. Is there motivation from him that way? Probably. Where does an aggressive, I don't know.

[Neil Giraldo]

Person, female like me. Where do I go now? What do I do? I am a finger pointing. Yell at you the entire time we're doing a concert. I speak my mind. I have no. There are no boundaries for me. And where am I at this day? Today? Where am I today? What do I do with that? What do I do with what just happened? What do I do with that?

[Pat Benatar]

I think if you show that same passion in music, you will find an audience that will value you.

[Neil Giraldo]

Well, no, I understand that. And my whole thing is, you know, my thing is to come out swinging. My whole thing is like not to be quiet. That's my self.

[Pat Benatar]

But that's rock and roll. That's.

[Roger Capps]

Yeah, that's the meaning of it.

[Pat Benatar]

So sitting with you and we've talked plenty about how we got here, you two. But what's interesting to me is the Level of vitality.

[Roger Capps]

Correct.

[Neil Giraldo]

Oh, yeah.

[Pat Benatar]

And I'm like, oh, now I understood what I was hearing on those records. Like, it's here in front of me. That's the great luxury of interviewing great people like you is I get to feel the engine behind it all.

[Roger Capps]

Sure, of course.

[Pat Benatar]

So the snarl in you is still there.

[Roger Capps]

Yeah, yeah.

[Pat Benatar]

No, but what I'm saying is.

[Neil Giraldo]

No, but. I mean, yes, it is. That's my problem. My problem is there's nothing that I'm gonna do right now. I am so snarly right now. I'm not cool. I am not cool. So I got all that right now. I am not cool. What am I gonna do with that? That is not gonna be pretty. And I don't even see an atmosphere or a universe right now where this makes any sense, except all I'm gonna do is turn everything crazy. And I'm like, well, I don't know if I'm like. I don't know if I really wanted to do that.

[Pat Benatar]

I get that. You know, I get that. That's what I'm saying. If you're gonna open your door, the.

[Neil Giraldo]

Kitchen motor house is like, it's not fun there right now.

[Roger Capps]

My studio's fun.

[Neil Giraldo]

It's not fun. We did a song the other day. It's fantastic. Cause, you know, we do other stuff. Like, our friend is doing a musical version of Scissorhands. And we just wrote a song for Scissorhands called Beautiful Weirdos. And it's. I almost beat the. Out of him in the studio because he was. He. I said, did you, like. Did you go like this and pick every note to make me have to sing every crazy interval on earth because you just wanted to kill me.

[Roger Capps]

That's how he gotta sing what's written. That's ridiculous.

[Neil Giraldo]

But I really hated him because I was like, this is what he always did.

[Roger Capps]

See, in the old days, he would.

[Neil Giraldo]

Just say, okay, I know, but I'm not that person. I'm like. I'm like, are you? I just want to have a cup of coffee and drink a glass of wine. And now I have to do. I have to do pyrotechnics, calisthenics, and everything else that ends in an ICS for, like.

[Pat Benatar]

Don't you see the compliment? He believes you can do it, though.

[Neil Giraldo]

I know.

[Roger Capps]

That's what I do. And you did it. I mean, you're doing it.

[Neil Giraldo]

So this is what he did to me in the beginning. He tortured me.

[Roger Capps]

I guess that didn't work. Well, he died.

[Pat Benatar]

Apparently. He didn't torture you enough because you're still not enough.

[Roger Capps]

That's exactly right.

[Neil Giraldo]

He did. He tortured me. He'd go, no, it's not high enough.

[Pat Benatar]

I think we're end on the torture.

[Roger Capps]

The torture's a good end.

[Neil Giraldo]

He did.

[Pat Benatar]

Thank you so much for talking. It was awesome.

[Roger Capps]

Yeah, Billy is. This is great. Thank you.

[Pat Benatar]

Thank you.

[Roger Capps]

I'll have to get you in the studio. Come on. Come and hang.

[Neil Giraldo]

We'll throw something down version too.

[Pat Benatar]

I will get you that version.

[Roger Capps]

We'll throw something down.

[Neil Giraldo]

And if you decide to do anything, I'm going to credit you.

[Pat Benatar]

Good.

[Roger Capps]

Well, look at there. That's good.

[Neil Giraldo]

Now you just made me insane.

[Pat Benatar]

I'm one of those guys. Produced by, written by, conceived by.

[Roger Capps]

You know what mine is? Here's what I do. I do that, but then nobody knows it's me.

[Pat Benatar]

Well, I just figured it out. God damn it.