Paul Williams | The Magnificent Others with Billy Corgan

Summary

Podcast Summary: Paul Williams | The Magnificent Others with Billy Corgan

Podcast Information:

• Title: The Magnificent Others with Billy Corgan
• Host: Billy Corgan
• Guest: Paul Williams
• Release Date: July 24, 2025

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1. Early Life and Family Background

Paul Williams opens up about his challenging childhood, marked by instability and early encounters with adversity. He recounts a poignant memory from his aunt who urged him to stay with her instead of returning to live with his mother and younger brother, asserting, “if you go back to live with your mom and your little brother, every bite of food you take will be a bite of food your brother won't get” (00:00). This moment of manipulation led him to remain with relatives he didn’t love, shaping his early experiences.

2. Introduction to Songwriting

Williams discusses the genesis of his songwriting career, highlighting a pivotal moment when he spontaneously created and contributed to a movie scene. While working as an improvisational actor, he composed a simple melody and lyrics for a scene in “The Chase” featuring Marlon Brando and Robert Redford. This spontaneous act was met with unexpected encouragement from Robert Duvall, who incorporated his composition into the movie (03:03). This experience served as a “billboard moment,” reaffirming his potential as a songwriter.

3. Success as a Songwriter and Collaborations

Paul Williams details his prolific songwriting journey, collaborating with esteemed musicians and producers. He mentions writing with Roger Nichols regularly, describing their partnership where Nichols focused on melodies while Williams crafted the lyrics. Their collaboration led to the creation of timeless songs such as “Rainy Days and Mondays” and “We've Only Just Begun,” the latter of which became a massive hit for The Carpenters after originating from a bank commercial (28:54).

Williams reflects on the influential relationships he built within the industry, including his interactions with iconic figures like Richard Carpenter and the meticulous work with session musicians from the Wrecking Crew. He emphasizes the seamless integration of his lyrical prowess with Nichols’ melodic expertise, creating songs that have been covered by legends like Elvis, Sinatra, and Bowie.

4. Personal Struggles and Addiction

A deeply personal segment of the conversation focuses on Williams's battle with addiction. He reveals that his addiction began early, with his first drink at age five or six, progressing to heavy cocaine and alcohol use by his late teens and twenties. Williams shares a harrowing account of a psychotic breakdown in 1989, precipitated by years of substance abuse, which eventually led him to seek help. This period of his life was marked by intense struggles, including leaving his family for a relationship that exacerbated his addiction (77:08).

5. Journey to Sobriety

Williams narrates his arduous path to sobriety, describing how a near-fatal experience acted as a catalyst for change. After his breakdown, he entered rehab and gradually rebuilt his life, earning certification as a drug and alcohol counselor. His commitment to recovery allowed him to reconnect with his music, leading to meaningful contributions such as writing songs for "The Muppet Christmas Carol" and engaging in community outreach through speaking engagements at jails and recovery meetings (80:58).

6. Contributions to Movies and Theater

Beyond songwriting, Williams has made significant contributions to film and theater. He discusses his work on "Phantom of the Paradise," a cult classic that merges elements of "The Phantom of the Opera," "Portrait of Dorian Gray," and "Faust." Despite initial skepticism from Hollywood, the film has garnered a dedicated following over the years. Williams also touches on his involvement in musicals, including collaboration with Guillermo del Toro on a stage adaptation of "Pan's Labyrinth," highlighting his versatile talents across different mediums (66:57).

7. Reflections on Writing and Creativity

Williams shares profound insights into the songwriting process, emphasizing the intrinsic connection between melody and lyrics. He believes that “the words are already in the melody,” suggesting that the emotional weight of a song often transcends its lyrical content. This philosophy has enabled his songs to be timeless and adaptable across various genres. Williams also critiques the modern pop industry's formulaic approach to songwriting, advocating for maintaining artistic integrity and originality (71:05).

8. Insights on Music Industry and Pop Culture

Throughout the conversation, Williams offers a candid critique of the contemporary music landscape. He laments the “gaming” of song structures by pop writers, which he feels dilutes the magic and authenticity of true songwriting. Williams underscores the importance of creativity and the emotional resonance of music, advocating for a return to more genuine and heartfelt musical expressions. His reflections serve as both a critique and a call to action for songwriters to preserve the soulful essence of their craft (75:14).

Notable Quotes:

• Paul Williams: “I look at my life and I just go, my God, you are the luckiest little bastard in the world.” (68:37)
• Billy Corgan: “I think we've reached total saturation in the way we write songs.” (75:14)
• Paul Williams: “I'm a nine-year-old dreamer living in my adult life.” (22:41)
• Paul Williams: “Great songs are like a spell or something.” (73:10)

Conclusion

In this heartfelt and introspective episode, Billy Corgan and Paul Williams delve into the highs and lows of Williams's illustrious career and personal life. From his early challenges and breakthrough in songwriting to his battles with addiction and triumphant journey to sobriety, Williams offers a candid look into the complexities of achieving and sustaining greatness. The conversation underscores the resilience of the human spirit and the enduring power of authentic artistry in the face of adversity.

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Timestamp Reference Guide:

• 00:00 – Aunt’s ultimatum and early sacrifices
• 03:03 – Spontaneous songwriting on set
• 22:41 – Feeling like a child in high school with a racing mind
• 28:54 – Partnership with Roger Nichols and creation of “Rainy Days and Mondays”
• 66:57 – Working on “Phantom of the Paradise”
• 68:37 – Reflection on luck and success
• 73:10 – The magic of great songs
• 75:14 – Critique of modern pop songwriting
• 77:08 – Sobriety and personal transformation
• 80:58 – Deep insights into addiction and recovery
• 71:05 – Connection between melody and lyrics

Note: This summary captures the essence of the podcast episode, highlighting key discussions, insights, and emotional moments between Paul Williams and Billy Corgan. It is designed to provide a comprehensive overview for those who have not listened to the full episode.

Transcript

[A]

This is like a Dickensian tale. The aunt said to me, during the two weeks, if you go back to live with your mom and your little brother, every bite of food you take will be a bite of food your brother won't get. So if you're going to be a real little man, you're going to write your mom and tell her you really want to stay here. And I bought it and I wrote the letters and I stayed with these people that I didn't love.

[B]

Elvis, Sinatra, Streisand, Ella Fitzgerald, Ray Charles, Willie Nelson, Tony Bennett, Bowie, Carpenters, obviously Diana Ross, Kermit. Quite a resume of people singing your songs. And obviously thousands more. That's pretty cool. Pretty cool, man. I mean, as a writer to writer.

[A]

I had no idea you'd be this nice.

[B]

I adore you. Paul Hamilton Williams. September 19, 1940.

[A]

Yep, exactly.

[B]

Let me find this card. I wrote this card out. Sorry. This is really good. You might appreciate. Do you like astrology?

[A]

You know what? I know that I'm a Virgo, I know that I have my moon's in Aries and I have Gemini rising. But no, I don't pay any attention.

[B]

Okay, well, check this out. So the idea is that there's this sort of mutable characteristics for every birthday. So I just typed in your birthday, not even your birth year, just your birthday. September 19th. Right. So listen to what it said. Excels in the arts. Singing, painting or sculpting. They need to stay inspired. And they might become prophets for a higher or. And they might become prophets for a higher cause. Protectors of the humankind or the animal kingdom. Doctors and healers of all kinds. They need things to flow, to become their best. Their field of expertise. For their waters must be clean so they can stay aware of their talents. Yes, I thought it was like that.

[A]

Took a while to get those clean waters, you know? I believe in everything. I mean, I believe in everything.

[B]

I believe there's a dark side to this quote.

[A]

Okay, go ahead.

[B]

Because I'm curious if this. Because that feels right to me as a fan of your work.

[A]

Thank you.

[B]

The first part.

[A]

Thank you.

[B]

But let's. The second part. This is the dark side of the movie.

[A]

Okay, good.

[B]

Detached and lonely, they easily fall into psychosomatic problems. When they are not satisfied feeling powerless over issues that are their own responsibility. They become. They can become a burden for their close for those close to them and turn to dishonesty or substance abuse when they are lost.

[A]

And I have a black belt on a couple of those things. I mean, it's like, you know, so that's your birthday. Yeah. Well, it's interesting because. Yeah. And you know, I joke that I wrote. I spent my life writing ouch mommy songs. I'm, you know, the master of the coat of pen and anthem. So it's like, you know, but it's. It's the master of the code, you know, it's a pick me up and love me is the essence of it. When I was about nine years old, they gave me shots to make me grow. And the shots did not make me grow. They actually kind of closed off the bones. Well, I was running.

[B]

Really.

[A]

I could run under coffee tables. I was so little. Two brothers that are six footers and me and the men, the middle.

[B]

Do you have any sense of why?

[A]

No. But they went to a doctor in Albuquerque, New Mexico. He said, I can make this boy grow.

[B]

Do you remember that?

[A]

And I do. I do. And I was probably 8 or 9, and he gave me male hormone, which. Which kicked me into early puberty, which what that basically does is it also begins to close off the bones and all. And of course, I immediately had a totally different relationship with the world around me. I had no interest in my toy chest, but my aunt Edna's chest was something that I found fascinating. And they saw this and they. And they stopped it, but it screwed up my body clock so.

[B]

Well, did it also screw you up mentally because you've gone from innocence to not innocence.

[A]

Now they take away hunger that I do not understand.

[B]

Okay, right.

[A]

A hunger, a need, an urge that I have not identified yet, but I am feeling the beginnings of it. And then because they interrupted the cycle, whatever like that, I was like maybe 22 by the time. I mean, so by the time I actually hit puberty. So, I mean, this all relates to the. You're opening salvo.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Is that all of us? So I'm in high school with the body of a 12 year old. And. But the mind is racing ahead. The mind is racing ahead. And out of that, all of a sudden I'm like in my early 20s. I want to be in that. My dad died in a car wreck drunk when I was 13. So alcoholism has, has been a huge part of. Of the Williams family. Both my brothers died sober. I'm sober 34 years. And I'm. I'm at a. A place in my life where I can see, I kind of can identify, you know, the different areas of the roller coaster.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

And when you, you know, the, the information you discovered throwing out the date of my birth is, is accurate to To a point of. Of being magical. So I need to start paying a little more attention.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

To. To my birth signs and that moon in Aries.

[B]

I think so. One brother was a NASA scientist. Is that accurate?

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And worked on Mercury and Apollo projects.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

That's pretty cool.

[A]

My brother Jack been eight years older than me, so we weren't, you know, it was a sweet, sweet man. Loved music. Loved me. Loved, Loved me getting the attention I did eventually. And.

[B]

And another brother wrote Drift Away. Right.

[A]

Mentor Williams.

[B]

What a great song.

[A]

Great. You know what? He.

[B]

I used to cover that song with him.

[A]

Did you really?

[B]

Oh, yeah. What a great song.

[A]

It's a fantastic song. He passed away in 2016. He would never. Both of my brothers quit drinking, but they. They could not quit smoking. The. The one thing I did that they didn't do is, is I quit smoking.

[B]

I just, I'm. I'm. It's one of my sort of sideline hobbies. But I'm sort of fascinated by genetic lines, like what we get from our, you know, from our ancestors.

[A]

Yes. Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

You know, and in your case, if you just look at the three brothers here, was there, Were there other siblings?

[A]

Pardon?

[B]

Were there other siblings in your family.

[A]

That, that passed away at birth, or was it whether it was a sister? Okay, but. But just three boys. I was the middle boy. All three of us. I mean, we, we were born addicts. We were born.

[B]

Right, but setting that aside, I'm not being glib about it, but. But it's interesting that all three did something in the world. You know, I mean, there's something there that must have come from. From up the, up the family tree. Right. That I. That's just my belief.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. Well, you know, it's. It's like I was gifted with, you know, with the, the genetic propensity towards, you know, addiction and alcoholism. And then I did a little work on it on my own. And, you know, I mean, I was.

[B]

How old you were. How old were you in the first drink you ever had?

[A]

Probably five or six.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

I mean, we would get a little glass of beer, sometimes watered down just a little bit at the family picnics. And, I mean, I was. Would go around at like 11 and 12, 10, 11, 12, whatever. And would, if there was a little something left over from the adults and everything would always, you know, just taste it.

[B]

Do you see that as the first signs that there was going to become an issue later? Is that just typical kids stuff?

[A]

No, I think that's typical.

[B]

I'm just curious. Yeah.

[A]

I. I think that the, you know, I really hit my stride and like, in my 30s, late 20s, I, I, you know, co. In the. In. In the 60s, cocaine was not addictive. It was a. It turns out I am. But it was like the. All the news was there was this wonderful drug, and it's. And it's not addictive, but it was. Which is absolute because it's. Remember there was.

[B]

Remember there used to be like, Beretta episodes, and you'd be like, coke's not addictive. I remember. For some reason, I remember that. Well, there would be episodes where you would talk.

[A]

You're talking about an episode that I wrote. I wrote that episode. Okay. Why watch that? And I remember that I did the Tonight show with. With Robert Blake, said, I love your show. I'd love to do it. He said, well, then write one. And then I did. So I did. I wrote over the Orphan Annie Blues and. And where I played a guy that has an old. A record store that's selling drugs because he has a sister in a wheelchair. Coke's not addictive. Yeah, exactly. And I think I have the. The line about. So nobody dies from cocaine. It's not even addictive, I think was one of the lines.

[B]

But, okay, I'm in a basement. When I was watching this, by the way, back in Cold Chicago, Robert Blake.

[A]

Said to me, you're the only one that. He says. The thing I always said to actors was, right one. He said, you're the only one that I ever did, you know? Yeah.

[B]

Interesting. Yeah, I love Robert Blake. I just speak in him.

[A]

Oh, me too.

[B]

What an interesting. Where are the Robert Blakes of today?

[A]

Right, Exactly.

[B]

Just fascinating.

[A]

Those are the people that I wanted to hang with. You know, I lived in mono between Jonathan Winters and Robert Mitchum. I mean, it's like I was the normal guy on the blocks or sort of, you know, but. But Mitchum is. I mean, I didn't. I didn't want to get sober. I got sober and I made it. I called a doctor in a blackout. And I mean, that's a whole other story and all, but. But I, I, you know, trying to keep over the. Robert Mitchell put me in treatment twice. You know, it was like.

[B]

He was a notorious stoner, right?

[A]

He was like, you know, I remember being. Being roasted for the City of Hope, calling Cheech and Sean and going. Cheech and Sean and going, you know, would you be on my dais? They were like, no, man, we didn't do that kind of. Come on. We don't. I said, robert Mitchum's on the ds. And they were like, oh man, we're there. It's like, it's like that's that, you know, that he's the pirate, you know, he's the, you know.

[B]

He really was that guy too, right?

[A]

He was that guy and I loved him.

[B]

How did you get from Omaha to la? I. That seemed that story.

[A]

Does my dad.

[B]

Readily available? Yeah.

[A]

I went to nine schools by the time I was in the ninth grade.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

My dad was in because he worked for a company called Peter Kiewitz Times. Coming. A big construction company. They built the B36 hangars in South Dakota. They built boys down in Omaha Hospital in Albuquerque. So we would go wherever the job every year, wherever the job was. Same company, same group of workers kind of working together and all. My dad would sit and drink with a guy named Ike McShane every night. And we either had a nice brick house in, in the upscale house in Denver or a 24 foot trailer in Lucasville, Ohio, because that's what was available. Wow. The only thing that was constant was my dad and, and Ike McShane drinking every night.

[B]

But how did you get to LA?

[A]

It was this with the family dad. When my dad was killed in the car wreck, he had a half sister that lived in Long Beach.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Who had never met. I found out later he didn't. Didn't like at all. And I didn't either. But she came to the funeral and she took me to Long beach with her for two weeks while my mother moved to be in Denver close to her sister with my little brother and the. The aunt. I mean, it's very. It's like. This is like a Dickensian tale. The aunt said to me during the two weeks, if you go back to live with your mom and your little brother, every bite of food you take is. Will be a bite of food your brother won't get. So if you're going to be a real little man, you're going to write your mom and tell her you really want to stay here. And I bought it and I wrote the letters and I stayed with these people that I didn't love, you know. Wow. And. But there was a gift in it because of the friends I made in, in Long beach at Woodrow Wilson High School that were all that were theater nuts. And we all loved Montgomery Clift and we all felt like Montgomery Cliff. And so this is mid-50s. Yeah. I graduated from high school 1958.

[B]

Okay. So who were you listening to in mid-50s that you love musically?

[A]

Yeah. You Know why was one of those kids before my dad died that he would get me up in the middle of the night and have me sing Danny Boy for. For Ike, you know. And Ike, incidentally, hated me. I was like. The last thing Ike wanted to hear was some gnome singing, you know. But. But I. Yeah, I. I loved. I think that when I was basically preteen, even I loved the American Songbook. I mean, I just.

[B]

Because you always had that in your writing.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, it was.

[B]

I don't remember. Translates everybody the same way it would translate to us. But. Yeah, but when we. When we. When you say Gershwins and the Irving Berlin.

[A]

All that. Exactly.

[B]

So you weren't in.

[A]

You.

[B]

You weren't a rock and roll kid.

[A]

I discovered the Beatles. I discovered rock and roll and the music of the 50s through the Beatles. The Beatles changed the 60s. I listened to Revolver and I listened to. You know.

[B]

So you weren't. You were. Did you like Elvis and. Or just kind of over there?

[A]

Well, no, I mean, I. Elvis would know. I liked. You know, I like the Platters. I like, you know, Jackie Willis. And there, you know, there was. But something happened.

[B]

How good are the Mills Brothers?

[A]

The Mills Brothers were amazing, you know.

[B]

And they're kind of a late discovery in my life.

[A]

Yeah. When did you find that? How did this happen?

[B]

I think I just came across him in a movie or. I'll tell you about my childhood, but Drop of a hat, you just gotta ask. You know what I mean?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I'm a cheap whore when it comes.

[A]

To talking about, like, the freshman and the. There's the Mills Brothers.

[B]

Blow my mind. Yeah, there's something. Because, you know, they would do that thing where, like, they would do their own horns and.

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

They like the only. The one guy playing the. Like a tenor guitar.

[A]

And they do those crazy, beautiful harmonies.

[B]

Yeah. And even there's cool stuff with them with Al Joel.

[A]

And it was sexy. Oh, my God, Very sexy.

[B]

So cool.

[A]

You know.

[B]

So I like the vocal Duke Ellington, like, you know, I mean, like.

[A]

Oh, I love that.

[B]

You know, like the beautiful kind of purple feeling of Duke Ellington. But vocally.

[A]

Yeah. And what's your favorite cut of theirs? Their favorite.

[B]

Oh, gosh. There's a song I really like. I can't think of. It's. It's. It's like one of these kind of Swanee variation songs. Kind of like a Stephen Foster take.

[A]

Did you love Randy Newman then? Because.

[B]

No, I'm not a Randy Newman guy.

[A]

Well, if you listen to Randy's really stuff, it's Very Stephen Foster. Very. You know.

[B]

Yeah, I love that one Randy Newman song about the wall being too thick.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Which is a great. You know, that's something that Randy Newman. Something about the Dusty Springfield did it. Something about walls are too thin.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. I don't know.

[B]

I don't want to hear it. I think I don't want to hear it. Something about the walls are too thin.

[A]

Yeah. I don't remember that.

[B]

It's a early Randy Newman, but Randy Newman is. Everybody knows him now. I've. I've never sort of emotionally.

[A]

Harry Nelson.

[B]

Not really.

[A]

Really?

[B]

Yeah, yeah, I know he was.

[A]

They weren't big influence how. Yeah.

[B]

When you. When you do kind of burst on the scene, you know, you didn't have the stench that a lot of people who went through psychedelic music had.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You were a. More of a classic writer and that's how people view you. Right. But I'm still curious for. Since you were here and you watch what went on in the 60s in LA, in the Sunset Street. Was that a world you were a part of? I know at some point you stand up working in it, but it was.

[A]

It's not what came out of me. I mean it's like.

[B]

No, but I'm saying atmospherically, were you hanging out?

[A]

Oh, atmospherically. I mean, I had shoulder length hair. I wore round black glasses, a top hat with a feather in it, a tie dye shirt undershirt with. With camouflage pants and work boots. I mean I looked like. You know, when I met Richard Pryor, he said I loved you like when you were late for the party in Alice in Wonderland. I think you look like. Look like the. You know, I'm late, I'm Rabbit, you.

[B]

Know, so were there any.

[A]

And the music that I love, I mean my favorite band that I ever saw, ever in person was the original Delaney and Bonnie in Friends. Oh, yeah, you know that.

[B]

Yeah, of course. Was it with Clapton still playing?

[A]

Well, well, I saw him with Leon Russell. I saw him with Carl Radle on bass, you know, like Jimmy Gordon playing drums for. You know.

[B]

Is Bonnie's the singer. Right. And.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

What was her last name?

[A]

The only name? Bonnie Bramlett.

[B]

Right. Yeah, Bonnie's a really cool singer.

[A]

They were amazing, you know, but what came out of me was, you know, I was writing for about four years. I mean the, the first song that I wrote that I recorded was a song I wrote with. With Bifro's called fill your heart.

[B]

See, you are an adult because that's the next page. Oh, Bifros is right here.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

Buzz the fuzz.

[A]

Buzz the fuzz. We were.

[B]

I read your song. Hold on. Fill your heart. Recorded by David Bowie.

[A]

Well, yeah, recorded by David Bowie and Tiny Tim, but first by Tiny Tim. It was the B side of Tiptoe through the Tulips.

[B]

Good B side to have.

[A]

Huge B side.

[B]

Did you make a lot of money off that?

[A]

We made a lot of money on that. You know, I went for. I showed up at A M Records. I met Bifroz on the Mortal Show. I was an improvisational actor working with.

[B]

Okay, tell me what it was like to work for Mort Saw.

[A]

I don't really remember a lot, except it was all about the. The Garrison was all about the Kennedy assassination. It was all about the Warren Commission Report. Everything. All of really.

[B]

For comedy.

[A]

Absolutely. Into the.

[B]

I know he did those records. Did he do those records? Right? I mean, I'm confusing. It was like Fireside Theater.

[A]

Well, no, no, no. Yeah, yeah. Mortal. Mortal is a political satirist. And so you needed grist for the.

[B]

Mill of the topic of the day.

[A]

So what happened is local television show. And he was. He was furious about the Warren Commission, which he felt was.

[B]

Was, you know, so he was a conspiracy theorist.

[A]

A major conspiracy was. Had, you know, Garrison on the show and. But anyway, I went on. I played a young. I played a. A boy Scout who goes to the White House to get. Get his. His ribbon as they choose you as a. As a. The top line, whatever the scouts are. Honor scout, whatever. And I get drafted and put in the Army. And Bifros was playing a Chicken Delight delivery guy who also gets drafted on the spot. And the two of us met and he was writing funny songs. Buzz the Fuzz, whatever. And we became friends. We got high together. We. He played me a melody. He said, this is going to be a really funny country song. And he played me a melody. I went, I don't think it's funny. I think it's pretty. And he said, well, then write words to it. So we started writing together. We wrote a couple songs together. He went to A M Records, played him everything had ever written and they liked the songs, including the ones that I'd written. And as he was leaving with his little bit of an advance, he got at the door, he stopped and looked back and said, incidentally, there's a couple songs that a guy named Paul Williams worked on with me. And he wrote the lyrics, whatever. And they went, which ones? And he told them, and they said, get him in here. And. And I showed up in a stolen car. This is A and M. At A and M. Yeah. And. And found Alive.

[B]

Was it where. You know the Chaplain Studios? Was it there?

[A]

1967. I signed as. As a.

[B]

Would you sign there? Who was your point of contact at the.

[A]

Chuck K was his name. Did you know Chuck, an amazing publisher who is the kind of publisher that would. When you were halfway done with a song, if it sounded like a hit or he knew who it was for, he would put you in the car and drive you over to play an unfinished song for somebody I wrote. I finished Rainy Days and Mondays in the car, driving over to play it for Bones Howl.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

Yeah. Oh, it was an amazing time because I went from a starving out of work actor, you know, I had done a movie called the Loved One. I did a movie called the Chase with Marlon Brando, Robert Redford, all that. And on that picture bed picked up a little. I bought a little guitar and wrote about three lines about a scene that we were watching with shoot where there's a. A fire. Robert Redford is a character named Bubba, who's an escaped convict hiding in. In a junkyard fire that us kids have just said. And I just pick. Watching Brando and. And Redford do one scene after another, I just for my own amusement went, bubba, Bubba, Bubba. Come out wherever you are, or we're going to come in and get you. I'm just looking for chords and making it up, but we're going to come in. And Robert Duvall walked by and he went, what is that? I said, it's a guitar. I just bought it. He said, not the guitar. What were you singing? And I said, I just. I thought I was in trouble. I just. I just made it up. I just made it up. He said, come with me. And he walked me over to the director, said, show it to him. It's in the movie. He shot it. It's in the movie. Two years later, I started writing songs because I'm a slow learner. But there was like a billboard in that moment. So first being being shown that, you know what? Do that. You'll make a living at it.

[B]

So for work, like a lot of people, it was. Did you get into the movies just because it was money and. But you or you wanted to be an actor?

[A]

I wanted to be an actor. I felt like Montgomery Cliff. I looked like Haley Mills, but I felt like Montgomery Cliff.

[B]

How was Brando? Was he at what. What stage in his interesting arc was he at?

[A]

At that point, people would walk up to Brando and start talking to him and he would just go, and walk off and all. But, I mean, I think there was maybe one conversation that I had that with him, with several other actors and all. I mean, he was Brando, and you just watching him shoot one scene over and over with totally different dialogue and energy every time, always just. I mean, I just spent two years with Billy Bob Thornton on Goliath. I mean, an amazing actor. And that same kind of. It's all so internal.

[B]

Yeah. So did you have a sense then of that Brando would be like, you know, he's obviously ascended to legend status for a variety of reasons. Do you have a sense then? I mean, you're looking at the living person in his prime.

[A]

Oh, yeah. I. I mean, I'm looking at Brando on this life, but at this point, he's already Brando. I mean, okay, it's 1960.

[B]

Yeah. But not all. Not all those legends lasted.

[A]

Yeah. It was like. I mean, it was. I. I couldn't believe I was on. You know, first of all, there's a part of me that re. That is just. If I walk on a movie set or film set, I'm. I'm nine. I'm. I'm just like, oh, my God.

[B]

Do you like old Hollywood?

[A]

Oh, I do.

[B]

I'm old.

[A]

I. Absolutely. I mean, I. I. My first wife, I sent a picture of. To her yesterday of myself with Carlo Ponti and Sophia Loren. And anyway, my wife is walking by in the background. She's so beautiful in. And I sent it to her. But it's like, it's. For me to be this. The run of the litter from the Midwest to construction brand. And all of a sudden, I'm. You know, when I started having hits, I started, you know, recording albums, which were basically like, demos. I'd record an album, and then other people would record the songs, and I made a living, you know, thank God. Thank you, Lord. But I started doing. I mean, I did 48 tonight shows, you know, and I joke that I remember six. Yeah, but that's a good joke. But all of a sudden, I'm like. I remember being at a. At a Friar's roast and walking on stage and in the audience was Kirk Douglas, Gregory Peck, Robert Mitchell. It's like Spartacus and Atticus Finch and. And I'm just like. And I'm nuts. I mean, I'm just like, how are.

[B]

Those guys with you? Did they. Did they see something in you or. You know what I mean? Because at different times, depending on your arc, you know what I mean? There were times where you kind of came across as A curiosity?

[A]

Yeah. Oh, yeah, yeah.

[B]

As American people like to drink.

[A]

I haven't lost that.

[B]

Okay, well, God bless. But. But then there were times where you could see people almost like they kind of figured out that you weren't going anywhere. You know, Tiny Tim was a talented guy, but he was a curiosity.

[A]

And his fate. Yeah, yeah.

[B]

You know, you went from a curiosity to someone who was on the Tonight show, hosting the show. That's a. That's.

[A]

That.

[B]

The American zeitgeist, as you know, is very fickle.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

How were those guys with you when you were in that?

[A]

I think. I think that. Well, first of all, they were friends. I mean, I was. I was friends with, you know, with many of them, you know, and Montecito was a tight little community with my Michael Douglas and Mitchum and whatever. But, you know, the great thing about what we do for a living is we don't have to give up our fan card. So I could keep that and everything, but I also, I mean, I was just a little loaded and a little. Just a little arrogant. So I was comfortable in any situation. You know, I didn't know that I should have been scared. And I'm sure a good therapist would take me back into the, you know, like, what's behind that wall? Behind that wall, behind that wall. And probably there was. Somebody was going, oh, my God. But I just, you know, I said yes to everything. I had a certain drug and I had a. Of an affection for what I was doing that was. That was a passion that was absolute and that was fueled by a certain arrogance that was drug induced as well. And, you know, but not from the very beginning. I mean, it was. It's a progressive disease. I mean, by the 80s, you know, I misplaced the 80s. You know, you're an alcoholic when you misplace a decade. But, but, but in the 70s, I mean, I. I couldn't go to the piano and identify a D minor, but I could screw. I scored movies. I go, okay, well, here we go. The shot of the gate. Bum, bum, bum, bum, bum, bum, bum. I want Arco basis to do the. Then like a. Let's just. Let's do a walk down on attack pan. I mean, it's like I'm doing straight self. I have no idea what I'm doing, but it's working.

[B]

Yeah, right.

[A]

And it's probably because when I was three or four years old, I'm listening to only you can make my dreams, because I've got all that in my head and my heart. And I think, incidentally, for your viewers. Yeah. That is like, you know, let this. The dribblings of insanity are about trying to do anything that we get the opportunity to do. Learn. Start living your life a little bit like that. Because what we dwell on, I believe we create. Yeah.

[B]

I believe that the power of intention.

[A]

The power of intention is.

[B]

You certainly manifested for you.

[A]

Sure. Thank you.

[B]

I'm curious because I love recording history. And unfortunately, as much as people interview musicians like us, they don't really get in the substance of where we really work.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So it's a rare opportunity because I want you to put me in this atmosphere. So you signed to A and M as an artist.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But like you said, people are covering your songs. I'm sure you're doing a little bit of a hustle. You're writing with people.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Well, I wrote with Roger Nichols almost every day for years.

[B]

And that was your six? Yeah.

[A]

You guys, when I write songs, when Bifros went to. To A and M and played and they. He mentioned me, they were looking for a lyricist for Roger Nichols.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

And Roger wrote beautiful melodies and he would write to play them for me. The night that I. The day that I met him, the day I went into A M, he gave me a cassette. He said, here's the melody. Take a listen, see if you hear any words. I showed up at 9 o' clock the next morning with the finished lyric. Because I. I mean, I hear words in music. So do you, you know, so do you.

[B]

So take me in that partnership a little bit. So in that case, he's more the melody guy. And you're the lyric.

[A]

The melody guy. I'm the lyric guy.

[B]

You're very good at melodicist.

[A]

He writes.

[B]

Was there a tension? Like, I'm. I'm just playing the game. If you heard something different, would you tell him? Or you.

[A]

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. He'd go, you know. You know, I said, can I have an extra note? He said, you don't need one. He was six five. So I'm five two. I said, we went with his version.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, but the thing is that he would write, you know, whatever.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I would. And I would hear it note for note, talking to myself and feeling, oh, sometimes I'd like to quit. Nothing ever seems to, you know, I hear. I hear lyrics in. In a fountain. I mean, the water in a fountain. I hear vowels. And it's weird. I mean, I would have wound up in either a bonfire or a dunking chair if I'd been born in the 1700s.

[B]

Were there other writers. I'm having troublesome linear here around that time. Were there other writers that you worked with?

[A]

Oh yeah, because Roger would go home. Roger and I would work from about 10 o' clock to. And we'd have a couple beers at lunch, whatever, and then we'd go back and work a little in the afternoon and he'd leave. And I had no life, you know, so I've got a little office and anybody that dares to walk by my office, I would, you know, like. I mean I wrote with, I wrote out in the country for Three Dog Night with Roger. I wrote Old Fashioned Love Song by myself alone because he'd gone home. I wrote Family A Man for Three Dog Night with Jack Conrad, who was my bass player. I wrote, you know, with anybody. And I mean I just, I loved it.

[B]

Well, I mean you were an artist and, and you know, this, I like this song, the Someday man that the Monkeys did. But you recorded that as well.

[A]

Well, I did an album of called Someday Man. Right. With the. I, I actually my first album was called the Holy Mackerel, which produced for Richard Perry.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

That's how I met Richard, who produced Tiny Tim and blah blah, whatever, you know. But you know, I just. When I signed at A M eventually I, I made the. An professional love song. Yeah, there that Michael James Jackson produced. And whereas the Someday man album was like Roger's album because it was all of his arrangements, his melody, it was all my words. He didn't write a lyric. I always wrote the lyrics, you know. But it was like it was his kind of his record.

[B]

I get you.

[A]

Michael James Jackson said I want to strip you down to like just minimal, you know, you and the song. And he went on, he got Russ Conkle, Lee Sklar, you know, Craig Duri. Just amazing music then.

[B]

And take me anywhere you want to take me. One is. What was the hustle like back then to get your songs placed to be sung or recorded by other artists?

[A]

I had very little to do with it.

[B]

So who was, who was doing that?

[A]

Ch. The great publishers, you know.

[B]

So is there, there all your. You focus on writing?

[A]

I wrote, I wrote the songs and, and when my albums came out, you know, I mean, I had people that, that were really, really good to me. I mean, Three Dog Night was, was amazing. Great band. The Richard Poddler, who was their producer did. We did our, we cut our demos there and Richard Poddler would go and cut us on and he'd show it to him and so you should cut this and they'd Go, I don't want to cut that. And go. You should shut. Three songs they recorded that that they didn't want to record, and all three were his. So, yeah, I, I was, you know, I was, was slowly but surely beginning to kind of get my, my, my, my paws on, on the occasional script, the occasional little acting job, you know, and, and just loving the opportunities I said. And I still, I'm still like that. I'm. I mean, I, I mean, I'm writing, you know, at this point, solidly two musicals right now, one with Guillermo del Toro. We're doing Pan's Labyrinth for the stage, you know, which is, that's on spot. Oh, it's. Yeah. J.J. abrams is producing. We're in good shape.

[B]

Tell me what it was like working with the Wrecking Crew at that time, because there's a lot of mythology now about that, but like, what was it actually like to be in a session with them?

[A]

You know, it was, you know, the, With Hall, Hal Blaine blurring that role. I mean.

[B]

Yeah, this house kind of. It was. How's. He was the general of that whole.

[A]

Yeah, he was. He. You know, I mean, I, I didn't realize at the time that I was working with the greatest rhythm section in all of Hollywood. I mean, I, I've, I learned that rather quickly. But I mean, I just, you know, these guys would, would roll in, we'd do a couple songs in, sometimes three songs in, In a three hour session. And they just played great. I mean, they were just, they were amazing. And then it turns out they were the guys that played on all these massive. Oh, yes.

[B]

It's insane when you really look at it.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, exactly. But then I also had that same kind of relationship with the section, you know, with Russ Kunkel, Lee Sklar, you know, Danny Kuchmer. Who am I leaving out? I mean, it's just. There are great players, you know, they're great players. And I had a road band that through the years I would take. I mean, I. The songs for the stuff I did for the Muppets and the, and Phantom of the paradise and all the stuff that I worked on my road band. I got to know me so well that, that, you know, I joke that, you know, one of them would fart and I'd feel better. It was like, that's a relationship, you.

[B]

Know, I remember, I know Chuck Negron a little bit. I run into him every once in a while. And I remember saying to him one time when we were talking, I said, who played on those records? Because I could Tell it wasn't the Wrecking Crew guys. And he goes, no, we always used our own band.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like, they had a great.

[A]

Yeah, Floyd and everybody.

[B]

Yeah, that was a really cool band. And, you know, it sounded like a contemporary. That was kind of this. The secret sauce on Three Dog Night is they. It sounded like a real band playing. Not. It wasn't like a studio band with those three guys. It was like a rock band playing with those.

[A]

And that was. There was all their. Their guys and all. And, you know, Chuck and I have a lot in common and. And he has been, you know, we're both open about our recovery. He has been so generous. I mean, I. I go off to Mobile, Alabama and speak for the Alcohol and Drug Council there or whatever as a fundraiser, and they. And I'm not even off the plane going home yet, and they're going, who are we going to have next year? First person. I would always call his Chuck. And he was. He's endlessly generous. He would always say yes. It always show up.

[B]

You know, it seems to me. And correct me because, you know, I'm watching your life on the other side. You know, the television back then was. I mean, it still is, but it's hard to explain to people who are younger than us that the compression of the moment, you know, four channels or whatever. So, yeah, when it was on television, it came across.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And it seems to me, at least in my own experience with you, that you and the Carpenters, that's the moment where somehow you seem to step forward.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Does that. Was that how it felt for you?

[A]

Yeah. You know, Roger and I were writing songs. We met the Carpenters, and incidentally, Roger and I were getting all these cuts and nothing was ever on the radio. I mean, album cuts, B sides, nothing on that. Nobody knew who we were. But.

[B]

But the police before that, there wasn't really any.

[A]

There was no charge success. There was no. No. There was no real charge success. But we were making a great living. I mean, we're B sides of. I, you know, wrote the. Besides of Iowa, I Am Woman and. And Delta Dawn. All these tiny.

[B]

There's a good song.

[A]

Yeah, exactly. So all of a sudden, there's. There's a knock at Rogers. We're running in Roger's office instead of mine. And there's a knock at the door and it's Chuck. He. Or Herbalperton and said, you know, this is our newest. Newest act at A and M. Wanted you to meet Karen and Richard Carpenter. They looked at. Roger and I were like, oh, man. We love your. Your Peppermint Trolley cut of Tust and Of Trust and the Steve Lawrence recording of Drifter. And we're like, we're famous. Oh, my God. We're so excited because these two kids knew who we were.

[B]

Wow. It's interesting that they kind of picked you out of the lineup.

[A]

Yeah, they did. And, you know, when they recorded Close to you, which was their first huge hit, the B side was. I kept on loving it that Roger and I wrote and was. Was going to be the A side. But they turned it over and played Close to you. Thank you, Lord, because it was a major, major free ride. But then what happened after that was Tony Asher, wonderful songwriter, was supposed to write a commercial for Crocker Bank.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And he had a skiing accident. He broke his hand. So he suggested Roger and I write. They wanted to write a little song. Not a pitch, no sales pitch. It's like a little video of a wedding show a young couple getting married. And it's going to say at the end, you got a long way to go. We'd like to help you get there. The Crocker Bank. And he recommended Roger and I. And I said to Roger, I said, I want to write a Bank commercial. I'm street, I'm white light and black leather. You know, which is. None of which is true. And he said, well, there's a creative fee. I want. Let's write this.

[B]

Yeah, I love. I love writing for Banks.

[A]

Yeah. I love Rodney. And so we wrote this, you know, in an afternoon. Wrote. Wrote the. You know, the. The song. And I sang it on the commercial. He did the background voices, the section, played it. I think Richard Carpenter heard it in the commercial and said, is there a full song? And it's We've Only Just Begun. And that's what. That changed our lives.

[B]

Trying to think where I want to go with this thought. It's like. I guess it's the sense that, you know, history has a way of compressing, like the television did back then, of how we view things. But because you were there and you were so instrumental in their success, it saddens me as a fan that usually when you think of the Carpenters, you think of the tragedy with her.

[A]

Yeah, of course. Yeah.

[B]

But what the public often misses is it's tragic because there was something to feel sad about the tragedy.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So I'm interested in your ground level impression. Like, the first time you heard her sing, did you. Did you think, like, wow, this is a unique instrument?

[A]

Yeah, but. But more today than then.

[B]

I mean, so but take me then, because I'm kind of curious. You know what I mean?

[A]

Well, it was just, I mean, it was an immediate, like, oh, my God, that's an amazing voice. That's an amazing voice.

[B]

And now that we know, really a one of a kind voice.

[A]

Yeah, it's, it's, it was, it was monumental.

[B]

It's such an, it's an instrument, you.

[A]

Know, as, as an instrument and all. But also there was this, this hybrid, this, this beautiful combination, this, this innocence and this sensuality that was, that and also a tinge of sadness and, and, and the sadness. And I think that, that the sadness came from the fact that her life was so controlled, I think.

[B]

Okay. It was controlling.

[A]

Yeah. I think her parents.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

I think, you know, you know, and I, and I was not in that house and I was not in the, in the sessions with Richard and Karen. I know that their, their partnership. And I mean, it's funny, there's, there's a part of me that doesn't want to go out and say, you know, if she, you know, there's a part of me that actually wants to say, if you'd let her be crazy, if she'd, you know, run off with a drummer, got hooked on drugs, she'd probably be alive today.

[B]

I see what you're saying.

[A]

Yeah. I mean, if, but the one thing she could control in her life was her weight.

[B]

I see.

[A]

And I think that everything was happening. She was so young and so, I mean, and clearly an old soul. I mean, I don't know how much you think feel about past lives and.

[B]

The, like, I'm, I'm a believer.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. And I think that there was just so much, so many layers of just soulful, human, sweet spirit there. That, that mix.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And then these, these kind of clamps around her about. This is your career. This is where we're going. Get out from behind the drums is where she was. That's where she lived.

[B]

Yeah. Good drummer too, right?

[A]

And they took, and a good, yeah, they took it away from, they took that away from. They said, oh, you go out, stand. Stand out front.

[B]

Yeah. Now you're a lead singer.

[A]

Stand up there and, and who knows how to stand? If I stand up in front of. Now stand up in front of this and, and stand up and, and look like you're comfortable. It's like just. I think that, that, that she, I think I, I, I just, I, I, I don't want to sit here and go. In my, in my opinion, if they had been. Whatever.

[B]

Yeah, I get it.

[A]

But, but I think that it was, it was a rare and amazing spirit that, that created the, the overtone that you're talking about. Yeah, that sadness, that, that beautiful innocence. And yet. And there was funny because there was something really kind of sharp about her when you were around her and a little bit of a. I mean a little bit of a conversation. And I never hovered around anybody when they were recording my songs. They don't hover around me when I'm writing them. I don't hover around them when they're recording. But oh boy, I would go over them when they'd call and say, you want to listen? Want to hear I won't last today without you? Go over there. God, listen to that voice.

[B]

I have to tell you a funny story and I've never told this story publicly, but it involves you. So I reformed the. My band broke up officially in end of 2000.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And the drummer and I decided to get the band back together around 2006. The guitar player was kind of didn't want to do it and the bass player was unfortunately not. Not available.

[A]

Garland guitar player left at that point.

[B]

Well, it's, it's, you know, it's how, you know, bands are. I mean we're.

[A]

Hold on, I'll get this for you folks. You're going to love this.

[B]

Yeah, here we go. We now two or three of the four original members. So there's peace in the kingdom. But at that point there wasn't. So at that point it's just me and the drummer. The. So we go on tour in 2007. We do a kind of a comeback record. We got excoriated because it only sold 500,000 copies.

[A]

Wow. Wow. Pathetic.

[B]

I had a journalist ask me, how do you feel now that this whole cycle's been a failure? And I said, it's a gold record.

[A]

It'S not a failure.

[B]

How much of a failure can it be? But you know, when you have these highest sales then it's always comparative. Anyway, so we toured for two years. You know, we. Okay, it's me and the drummer. So we have other musicians. You know, everywhere we went the, the, the other people in the band were called Rent a band and all this. And it was just used as a way to kind of beat me over the head with the idea that my band had not reunited around me. You know, I was the focus and typical stuff. So imagine at the end of this kind of 24 month cycle of intensity, who's in the band, who's not in the band. And in My case, the.

[A]

The.

[B]

The kind of the. The grumpy part was I'd written and produced all the records that people wanted to hear. So I'm on stage and in many cases the.

[A]

The.

[B]

Some of the most famous songs. The only people on the record are me and the drummer.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So, I mean, we're here, we're in the building. Anyway, it's not that valuable now, but this is where you come in. So I'm a bit of an art terrorist, I think it would be the word I would use. And I needed a way to make the point that I wanted to make. So we decided to do a tour called. It was our 20th anniversary from when we first started. So we call the tour without even thinking twice about it, celebrating 20 years of sadness. It was just a joke. Just a joke. What we didn't realize was our most famous album is called Melancholy and the Infinite Sadness.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

So people assumed that the tour was the album, but it wasn't.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So we did this thing where we. We did it, I think, four times.

[A]

And how quickly did you sense that?

[B]

Oh, the first show. First show, yeah. Why don't we do the first show?

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

So. And we. We had done this curious thing to celebrate 20 years of music. We did this thing where we did two shows and we. Over the two nights, we played 48 different songs, but we didn't repeat one song.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

So I thought it was a way to really sort of demonstrate the breadth of the band. And meanwhile, you got a bunch of people with their arms crossed thinking, this isn't what I thought I paid to hear.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So within a few performances of this, I was so frustrated with the. The build up and all the bad. Now I'm facing a tour which isn't done in all this vitriol coming at me, you know, the crossed arms and all this stuff. So I told someone to go out and buy kazoos. This is to. This is totally true, okay? Totally true. I swear to God. So I get the band, the whole band up on stage and we had extra horns. The guys from no Doubt that played in.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

So they were on. We had, I think with the entire ensemble for the tour, because of the breadth of the material was nine people counting me. So I said, okay. And, you know, you got the mixing guy and he's like, what are we doing? Right? So we lined up like two or three microphones, like, so this is the encore. And I gave everyone a kazoo and I said, you know, close. Close to you. Okay. And the band's Like, And I hadn't told anybody what I was going to do. This soundcheck, and I go, okay. And I get everyone to go. And they're all laughing like, okay.

[A]

Right, right.

[B]

And I go, okay. So we got it where it sounded halfway decent. It was supposed to be a bit of a bust, but there it is. There's no mistaking what we're playing at this point.

[A]

Is it just kazoos?

[B]

Just kazoos?

[A]

No drums, no bass? No.

[B]

I think. I think I might have had the drummer keeping a beat. I don't remember that part. But somebody was keeping time and.

[A]

And.

[B]

Okay, so now you get the. You know. You know, when you've known people many years, like, you know, you're drummer with anything. Okay, now what? Okay. What are you up to? You know what I mean? Like, what are we doing? And I said, just play this part when I cue you and then give. Don't play until I cue you again. I feel like there was maybe we had a drum machine.

[A]

No, let me ask you a question. Was. Was the bulk of it kazoo or the minimal little thing in the middle of kazoo?

[B]

Just to get. To answer your question, the kazoo was the coda to buttress whatever I was going to say in between the kazoos.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Okay. So I didn't tell anybody what I was going to do other than cue play the whole chorus lay out. Let me do what I'm gonna do. I might have had some. You know what it was? I probably had somebody playing the piano. Just chords. That's what I would. It was. Yeah, I'm sure it's on YouTube.

[A]

A lot of air, a lot of space.

[B]

I'm sure it's. Exactly. I'm sure it's. I'm sure it's on YouTube somewhere. So imagine the band has no clue what I'm doing, other than they know just to play the chorus melody. So we go on stage, wherever the hell we are, and there's, you know, 3,000 people there. We come out for the encore, right? And the crowd's kind of like, okay, we know. Where's this going? They think I'm going to sing close to you. No. When it gets to the break or whatever would be the verse, I start going, you know, people wonder, who am I? Who are you? Who are the Smashing Pumpkins? Am I the Smashing Pumpkins? Maybe you're the Smashing Pumpkins. Are we the Smashing Pumpkins? I don't know. Who cares? It's music. So I'm doing like a Lenny Bruce.

[A]

Oh, I love It a spoken word.

[B]

Riff, but to poke my finger in the eye of the audience, go yourself.

[A]

Good.

[B]

Because if I'm standing here, okay. And I'm playing my songs, who cares what it's called? Wait, go ahead. Okay, so. Da da da, pokey in the eye. Say whatever I'm gonna say. Very Lenny Bruce meta take. And then. And this would go on for four choruses.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

Some. There were one version, I think One Night went eight minutes.

[A]

Yeah. Sudden death comedy.

[B]

Thank you. All right. Please, I want to answer your question.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. You were Spartacus in that moment. I mean, it's like, you know what it is? It's. It's absolute freedom. It's. How dare you expect me to be the same person over. And I mean, it's interesting to watch. You know what? Pat Benatar was kind of talking about that too, about how she doesn't want to go back to it. But it's. The thing is that, you know, it's like trying to take a picture of your. Of. It's like being in a mixmaster of life and your career and whatever like that and that comfort of what you had had for all those years. And then it changes. You're coming back and then you have that magical moment when you pick up something and. And you have just become a target.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And you, you know what you. What you've done. And I will tell you right now that the album that they may have do, you may see a day when that has. Is. Yes. Cherished.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I mean, I've had a massive, massive success or rather failure that nobody really paid attention to except for Two Little towns and probably those. And I'm talking about Phantom of the Paradise. There was a hit in Winnipeg, in Paris, and was. I mean, as Samuel Goldman, the French. You know, it's like Samuel Goldman used to say, they stayed away in droves, you know, so, I mean, nothing. They stay in trouble again and again. Through the last 50 years since I made that, I've had people that loved it that all of a sudden could make movies or make records that came to me and said, let's work. I mean, there are. There are gems in those moments, you know, when you are unjustly, you know, judged. I mean, I mean, I'm still waiting for his char to pay off.

[B]

You know, we're gonna wait a while.

[A]

I think, on that one probably.

[B]

So let's go back to your acting because now you have. You have legitimate top level success over here on the music side, but then you start becoming kind of a movie Personality, you know, what was. What for you was the break? Was it was the Planet Apes movie or.

[A]

Well, I did, I did, you know, before I did the music, I did the Loved one in the Chase. The first thing that I did after I became known as a songwriter was, Was Battle for the Planet of the Apes.

[B]

Right. Okay, take me through that conversation. Is the manager calling? You know what I mean? That's got to be an interesting day.

[A]

Yeah, well, you know, it's a movie that's been, it's, it's. All I heard was that it's being directed by Jay Lee Thompson. It's an appliance work. It's, it's an Apes movie.

[B]

But you'd seen the original.

[A]

Yeah, I, I don't know if I'd seen it. I, I knew about them, but I don't think I, I don't think I'd seen it.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

You know, I, I, it didn't, did not appeal to me. It's not something I wanted. Okay. Evidently, I don't remember. But, but I knew that the, the, that John Houston was already signed, was going to play a part in it. And so I'm like, I'm not. We're talking about John Houston. I mean, we're talking about, I mean, Walter Houston. John Houston, Royal family Houston play the heavy in that.

[B]

I don't remember in, in the Battle for the Planet.

[A]

Battle for the Planet, Yeah. He plays the lawgiver. That. There's this open. His first scene.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Where he's there with all the orangutans and chimpanzees.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And gorillas and all. And he's there. 1.

[B]

I can see the scene in my mind. I just showed, I showed. I have young kids, 9 and 6, and I just showed them these movies not too long ago. They loved them.

[A]

Do they love them?

[B]

Oh, this for a kid. Are you kidding? It's like, it's like the perfect movie.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

You know. You know, when you're a kid that age, it's like there's movies like this. It's like, you know, to them, it's like, this is the most awesome thing. The world dominated by apes. It's like, you know, they want to live in that world.

[A]

It's kind of. It's a pretty good movie. I think it actually is. It is a good movie. Battle for the Planet of the Apes.

[B]

Okay, so not to belabor, because I'm sure you've talked about 50 times, but you're getting up at what time to do that makeup.

[A]

Like, I think they picked me up at 4:30 maybe at 4. I was staying at the, at the, at the Outrigger in Malibu. We were shooting at the Malibu Ranch, which is, is, you know, close by the Fox Ranch, Malibu Ranch, whatever it's called. So they'd pick me up like a four, 4:30. I'd do like two and a half hours of makeup in, in a little makeup trailer with Claude Aikens here and Roddy McDowell here. Never spent. And well, first of all, one of my favorite movies ever was How Green is My Valley when Robert, when Roddy was a little boy in that. And he's like going, you love that movie. Right over there is where the, the mine was and the, on that hill was where the Welsh village was. And like, you know, and he would always listening to, listen to classical music in the morning. And so there wasn't a lot of conversation usually. So it was very kind of quite, very ethereal that I'm like between Claude Akins.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And Ronnie McDowell. People don't know who Claude Aikens is, but you would recognize him in a minute.

[B]

What a great actor though.

[A]

Great actor, wonderful character actor. Fabulous. And so, and with classical music and everything and you know, and then you've got, got everything on except the jaw. The jaw comes all the way out to here. Yeah. Like about, about 2 or 3 inches out in front of the rest of your, your, your face. So you have to eat before they put the jaw on because your nose is out to here. You can still get your food in. But then when they put the jaw on, that's why there's no, there's no production sound ever used because the way everything sounds like that, you know, so you have, you, you have to dub everything. It's all, you know, it's all adr. Automatic automated dialogue replacement.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

Just showing off.

[B]

Was that movie a success?

[A]

I think so. I think so. I don't know. I don't really know. Yeah, I know that, that, that, that it was just, it was amazing to, to, I mean to be playing, playing orangutans and gorillas instead of cowboys and Indians, you know, but with the guns and the horses and all. It was, you know, I mean it was, it was for me and as I say, I'm still that way. If I walk on a set and I'm, you know, hired as an actor, it's like I'm living my, my nine year old dreams. So.

[B]

Because you know, you, you conquered all these media right now. Now, now you start conquering television. Yeah. Because now, now here comes you on Carson.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I mean, obviously that unfolded over years, but. But again, same thing. I remember seeing you on there and you had a way of, maybe it was bravado, but you had a way of. He must have loved you because very few people could kind of take over his show and get away with it. But somehow, I mean that for real, because there were times where you could see sometimes like he bring a comedian over the couch and the comedian start. Tried doing the shtick and you could see Johnny like, yeah, he'd back, get me the hell out of here.

[A]

Yeah. Well, the great thing, first of all, we never talked before and like, if, if he came into makeup, he went, he'd wave. But we, There was never any, how you doing, what's going on, whatever. So it was always fresh.

[B]

Letterman's the same way.

[A]

And, you know, I was always a little lit. And you know, I mean, when I was a kid, when I was 14 or 15, I loved Oscar Levant.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Oscar Levant, you know, was, Had a wonderful cynical humor and, and was edgy and crazy and, And a drug addict and, and he was.

[B]

So that was your, that was your.

[A]

That was my, that was my spirit guy.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

You know, or spirit animal, maybe is my spirit.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Animal was Oscar Levant. And you know, it's funny, my wife Mariana talked to one of our. When we out together, she said. One of the things that she said fascinated me is, was you described yourself on Carson as a combination of Oscar Levan and Donny Osmond. You know, it's like, you know, it's like that sort of trying to find, you know, and whatever.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But, yeah, I just, you know, and I, you know, I never, I never really self edited. I would kind of, you know, I'm sitting next to a young actress is talking about. She's just been home with her family in Maine and they were like cleaning the house and all. We did all this cleaning. We cleaned for three weeks, whatever. And I go, and the family's in amphetamine business, you know, and it's like. And the, and, and the producer, you know, is just like, God damn it, Paul. You know, you don't, don't do that. You know, I said, okay, I won't. And the next time I do it, you know, I just, if I thought it, I'd say it. And I, you know, as I say, my, my heroes were. Were some really interesting, powerful.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Colorful, colorful people.

[B]

Not to assume that you knew Carson, but he's an interesting guy in the sort of the American firminate affirming ferment is that word for a minute.

[A]

I don't know. You just leveled American sky. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, he was. It was interesting, but also, like, I was great friends with. With Ed McMahon.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

And so Carson would finish Carson and I'd go out with Ed and if there was somebody. And. Exactly. Have dinner and a bunch of drinks and. And so, like, if there was somebody fabulous on the show, you know, if James Mason was on the show. Yeah. So that. Then why go out and have dinner with Edmund? Orson Welles. Orson Welles hosted the Tonight show, and he asked for the three guests that he had. It was myself, Red, George Goble, myself and Red Fox. Geraldine. Yeah.

[B]

Oh, I know you're talking about, you know, Geraldine Pate. No, that's the actress.

[A]

No, no, no, I know you're talking.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Black comedian.

[B]

Which is great, though.

[A]

What was his name? It was. Well, that's like Flip Wilson. Flip Wilson. Thank you. So funny. And it's like, I mean, what an honor to have him ask for the three of us. But. But we went out and had dinner that night, and so it's like, again, here I am on the run of the litter. The construction bread from Omaha, Nebraska, Paul Hamilton Williams ii. So that era with Orson Wells, that.

[B]

That era, that early 70s, obviously it started in the late 60s, but that was that sort of dismantling of the Hollywood studio system. What was your impression of the town? Because there was still that weird transitory moment, like a lot of the old stars moved to television, but there was that awkward kind of vibe of new blood, old blood.

[A]

This is. This is my. My, My just little bumper sticker moment of what it was at its best. I'm overdoing Hollywood Squares, you know, with. I'm. Incidentally, I'm a Charles Nelson Riley. Peter. We have. Oh, I love Charles Nelson Riley. No, that Charles Nelson Riley was on Match Game.

[B]

Okay. Sorry.

[A]

Yeah. But we have a.

[B]

Who was that?

[A]

Who?

[B]

It was. What's his face? Paul Lynn.

[A]

The Apollo was, you know, was hilarious. Oh, my God. Where's the fire in your eyes, Officer? I mean, God is so funny. But I'm doing. Doing Hollywood Squares and. And walking over to see Pat McCormick at. On the. The Tonight Shows there, because we just finished shooting the squares. Whatever. Or. Or the other way around. Whatever. But I come around.

[B]

He was kind of like. They had the ethnic comics and he was the Italian.

[A]

Pat McCormick was Italian. He was the writer. He wrote the. For. For Johnny.

[B]

He was.

[A]

He. So he wrote.

[B]

But he did his own comedy.

[A]

Oh, yeah, exactly. He was. And he was hilarious. He was my Daddy in the Smoking the Bandit movies. Big Pat McCormick, a little Paul, you know, it's like Burt Reynolds was on this night show. And I'm standing. Just because I walked over to the Hang with. With Pat. I'm standing there next to Pat and he goes, I got an idea. And we didn't wind up doing three. Smoking the movie. Yes. Thank you. Good idea, Bert. Vacation to make and a job to watch. Smoking the Bandit, you know.

[B]

But what was your impression of old Hollywood? Because I'm curious about that transitional space. I know you loved old Hollywood like I do, but I'm saying is you still had that awkward period where they're still around. Like, you watch those Dick Cabot interviews and it's Gloria Swanson and hey, listen, Myrna Loy. And I wrote.

[A]

I wrote the lyrics to the Love Boat theme, you know. Oh yeah, that was it. So that was the graveyard for a moment. So that became the home for a lot of those actors. They got, you know, yet Charlie Fox and I wrote the last 11 years. Jack Jones singing it every week and all and all those. So I did several of those as well. Fantasy. Fantasy islands and elbows and all. Or you show up for Hollywood Squares and you. And the first thing I do is I go out and I'd look and see who was there. Yeah. Go. My God. Vincent Price. I love Vincent Price. I want to get to know Vincent. Yes, I was. Did you. I was a kid in the can.

[B]

Did you get to know Vincent Price?

[A]

Pardon?

[B]

Did you get to know Vincent?

[A]

Oh, yeah. We actually had the same business manager, it turned out.

[B]

That's cool.

[A]

Yeah. When they tore down his home on. On the beach in Malibu, I bought his. His. The. His mantle from his. His bedroom, the fireplace mantle. And a bunch. Some stuff that I made into a headboard. So we. Yeah, we. We were friends, you know. So this is. This is like your basic Hollywood fantasy come true for little.

[B]

Speaking of Hollywood fantasies, I remember it was laser discs. Remember laserdiscs?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Basically, I feel like this is my. And really. And. And I saw. I didn't. I seen reference to the movie Phantom of the Paradise, 1974. But somehow I ended up with the laserdisc. And that's one of those movies, like you put it in, you're gonna sit back and watch a movie. You know, it's quasi musical, right?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I don't know, whatever I was on substance wise. But I remember thinking, how did this movie ever get made? Like, it's so cool that it got made and obviously it's become its own Kind of. I don't want to say it's a cult classic because I think it's better than that, but.

[A]

Thank you, but.

[B]

But at the same time, you know, you think, like, who the green lit this movie? Like, it's like a. Like a. It's like things like that don't really happen, but they do. But, you know, it's like. It's like somehow when they. When they. The inmates get to run the asylum for five minutes, look what they do, you know, they make a movie like Phantom of the Paradise.

[A]

That's the best description of it I've ever heard, Billy. That's exactly what it was like.

[B]

Well, that's what it feels like.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I was on God knows what lsd, you know, I mean, I'm watching and you're just going crazy. Yeah, I mean.

[A]

Well, it was interesting because, you know, A and M hired a guy named Michael Arciega to, like, try to hook up some movie people with. With the music makers at A and M Records. So stir up a little business. And probably the first meeting that Michael had was with Brian De Palma. Okay, who's looking was going to do this. This film, Phantom of the Film, or it was called before. It was Phantom of the Before.

[B]

They didn't want to maybe remember the name. Yeah, yeah.

[A]

So. And it's like. It's a combination of, like the. Of, you know, this. The Phantom of the Opera and the Portrait of Dorian Gray and Faust as a whole. That as well, I started working on. But basically, I don't know how or why Michael Arcio recommended me. If you looked at what I had written and what I was known for at the time, there wasn't a human being in Hollywood that was. That was more absolutely wrong for writing this score for Phantom of the paradise than me. And it was amazing that I got the opportunity to do this and satirize all these different kinds of music.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

You know, and then Brian, you know, watching me work and went, you know what? How would you like to play Swan? And I went, yeah, you know, it again. It was one of those things where it just. Brian went to see Opening Night in. In New York and the theater was empty. Went there with Bill Finley, you know, amazing actor that played the Phantom. But through, you know, this last year, on the closing night of. Of the Cannes Film Festival, I introduced Phantom on stage. I'm standing there and I'm thinking about Bill, and I'm. And I'm ready to cry. But it's like, here it is 50 years later in Cannes, the Cannes Film.

[B]

Not at the Omaha.

[A]

No, I'm not at all.

[B]

Right.

[A]

I'm at the Cannes Film Festival and it's the plage on the beach and it's like endless rows of beach chairs, everyone full of people and they're screaming for Phantom of the Bird. I just did Phantom palooza in Winnipeg. 1600 people tuned shows in a row of just they screen Phantom. And then we did a Q and A and I felt like a beetle, you know, it's like for me at this age, the, you know, the little Paulie.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

From. From Omaha, Nebraska. To stand on that stage and be treated like. Like that big a deal is really. I mean, that's magical. How the hell did that happen? I am nothing but. But I'm grateful for every breath. But I look at my life and I just go, my God, you are the luckiest little bastard in the world.

[B]

Speaking of lucky, it's not luck, but Elvis, Sinatra, Streisand, Ella Fitzgerald, Ray Charles, Willie Nelson, Tony Bennett, Bowie, Carpenters, obviously Diana Ross, Kermit. Quite a resume of people singing your songs and obviously thousands more. That's pretty cool. Pretty cool, man. I mean, as a writer to writer.

[A]

I had no idea you'd be this nice.

[B]

I adore you.

[A]

Mutual.

[B]

Thanks.

[A]

It's absolutely mutual. Let's write something.

[B]

I love it, but this business, you and. Thank you. That's very kind of you. How can I put it? I feel like writers know writers.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And what people miss, at least this is my opinion. Writers don't focus on other writers idiom or style. They focus on their chops.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

These days the glib way of saying is top line writers and all that type of stuff. Yeah, it's a little bit boring.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

It's a knack. Yeah, it's a knack for writing. I was very dismissive of my writing when I was young and then, you know, doing like a box set reissue. I had to go back and listen to a bunch of early stuff and I had to replace my 18, 19 year old opinion of where I was at on the song continuum. And at the age of, you know, whatever, 50, I'm looking back going, wow, I just. I know how to write melodies. No one taught me.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You either can do it or you can't.

[A]

Listen to your guitar riff. The opening of the new album, the.

[B]

First Eden is the track.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

Thank you.

[A]

You know, it's just there's. There is the. And then I said to this before we came out here, but there is, there is stuff you do in the. In the dynamics when it breaks down that is immediately feels. It's compelling and comforting. I mean, and we're coming out of. You know, it's like it's. We're up here. Yeah. And then you come down to the fence. You come down to. You come down to. You come down to. You come down to this place where. Feels so good. I want to stay there. Just full river. But then.

[B]

Well, it's trying to. I think just like you. We try to translate the.

[A]

The. The.

[B]

The moment we're in into something that sort of crystallizes. Pop music at its best, has a way of crystallizing moments like they become a three dimensional.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Holographic snapshot.

[A]

And the thing is that, that, that to me, the, the words are already in the melody. Oh, that's amazing.

[B]

Yeah, that's interesting.

[A]

You hear it like, hear it like, it's like, you know, easier to let you go than I. Than I may have imagined. Whatever. I mean, why is it there? But there's. There's. There is. There is also a separate of the lyric. And, and that is inherent in the. In the melody is. Is. It's. It's made more. More interesting by the lyrics sometimes, but the lyrics sometimes to. You know, it's. I pointed it out to you that the most on the. The bullet with. With butterfly wings. The most tender thing you say in that you go absolutely in a totally. It's the most violent moment in the song. True, isn't it? Yeah. Did you have any consciousness of that?

[B]

No, not at all. No. No.

[A]

But it works.

[B]

Everything's for me.

[A]

But you know what? It also makes it acceptable to a certain audience. I mean, you know, the Smashing Pumpkin audience is like that.

[B]

Yeah. The difficulty I think is. Is. And you know, because of your work with, with running ascap, you know, you're talking to writers all the time.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

What I think the public has a hard time understanding is that great songs are like a. They're like a great. It's like a spell or something. And if we could cast it every time, we would, you know, I mean, because for every great song I've written, I've written 20 that nobody cares about. It's. It's.

[A]

It's.

[B]

It's. It's like trying to form up the perfect helix or something, you know. And that's why I think in. In with your great songs, they can be covered by such a wide variety of artists because the. Let's call it the core strength of the rhythm, the melody, the lyrics. It. It endures no Matter. Like, you can jump up and down on it. You could do the salsa version, you could do the reggae version.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I'm sure you've heard those kind of covers.

[A]

It's funny because I almost can't. Can't. I'm not hearing you because I'm sitting there thinking about. There is something of the same soul that Leonard Cohen has that you have. No, that is in. That is. And it's interesting because you delivered in. In a very different way. Or you have.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I mean. And I just don't know all your music. I don't.

[B]

You know, but I think like, everything. It's a product of the times.

[A]

But do you know what I'm saying?

[B]

Sure I do. It's. It's something I. I guess what I would say to you in. In response is. It's not something I totally understand because if I. If I did.

[A]

Let me interrupt and ask you a question. Are there. Are there. You know, that. That Leonard Cohen, you know, but with the energy and all. Is there. Are there future songs that you've. That you already have a sense of, that you can go very, very differently in what you're going to write coming up? Oh, yeah, because I'm kind of going the other way. I've been writing with Portugal the Man, and it's as if we're just scribbling outside of the lines like crazy. And I love it, you know?

[B]

Yeah. I think we've reached a. Just as a sort of meta point. I think we've reached total saturation in the way we write songs. In essence. The pop world has so gamed. Like, they've stolen 3% from you and 1% from me. And so they've made it like this is the template. Like, Rick Beato did a thing where he studied the last top number one songs and he said 84 of them. I'm probably misquoting, but it was a high number, have no key changes. Well, so they decided the. The average American person doesn't want to really hear too much melody or they want to hear a lot of melody over one set of chord changes.

[A]

Changes and. And where vocals are being. Being mixed right now. It's like, I can't. You know, I mean, I'm old, I'm half deaf anyway. We're hearing aids and all. Incidentally, I can hear you beautifully. It's really nice. But it's just. I'm amazed where. How you're. And, you know, you listen to, like, you listen to the original Delaney and Bonnie and Friends. Yeah. Or you listen to a, A Leon Russell album. And the way he mixed, I mean with, I mean was just a lot of the Beatles stuff too was mixed like this. You know, I put it out.

[B]

Yeah, well, we've, that's what I'm saying. We've, we've collectively. Because I like to blame us all. We've, we game. We've gamed the system of writing songs to the point, you know, you can go on and watch a video. Max Martin explaining that he has a theory. The song should do this. And you know, the vocals shouldn't wait past once you get to that level. And there's no disrespect to Max Martin, one of the greatest pop writers in the world, but once you get to that level where you can game anything.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That's where the magic to me goes out of it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because at the end of the day, if you knew what you were doing to the level of gaming it, you would have written 40 more great songs than you did.

[A]

But to call back to you with your kazoo moment. Yeah. You went to a spoken word like that. That's, that's, you know, there is a. Probably an, an unidentified urge to stay creative and stay original. That, that it busts. You know, maybe that's what.

[B]

But isn't interesting that. Excuse me. I, I chose, I chose a song that I associate with tenderness and warmth. What was the day you got sober? Sober. And that's it. You're sober.

[A]

I went to Oklahoma City to do a gig I had. It was 1989. It was September of 1989. I had left my wife and kids for a 22 year old psych major. And she left me because she said I love you too much to watch you die. I went to rehab for her. It didn't work. She was gone for probably two years after that. I just was nuts. I went to Oklahoma to do an accident.

[B]

Like what. What were your daily.

[A]

Probably an eight ball of cocaine every day.

[B]

Alcohol on top of that.

[A]

Alcohol on top of it. Yeah. Because otherwise you get too bunchy. So you have to find that nice little, you know, your jug.

[B]

The perfect buzz. Yeah.

[A]

You know, and the career that, that I, when I did get sober, the career that I thought I had have been gone 10 years basically. But I had a gig and, and I went to Oklahoma City. I'd been up like three days and nights with maybe an hour nodding out once in a while. But I'm in the hotel. There's a knock on the hotel room door. It's, it's the, the, the Promoter to take me over to the afternoon gig. My band is, you know, done the sound check, they're ready for me. We're walking down the hallway. We're having a conversation as we are right now. And the way he described it later is, he said, it was as if somebody grabbed you by the seat of the pants and the nap of the neck and threw you almost as high as your own head against the wall. Just like an invisible monster that nobody could see but me. And for 45 minutes, I was tortured by a. A creature. The. The. I mean, I was throwing down escalator stairs. There's no escalator in that building, but the steps were moving for me. I was tortured. Like, he put me in his car to drive me over. And looking in the side view mirrors, I saw this little monster version of myself with sharp teeth.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

Twisting my ears, biting me on the neck. I had a full tilt psychotic breakdown. Total cocaine, alcohol toxicity. They take me over. He says to my band, does this happen before? And they said, no, never like this. He gets weird, but never like this. They canceled the gig. I talked them out of taking me to the hospital. No, I'll be all right. I'll be. I'll be all right. I'll be. I'll be all right. Had a drink, which helped. Did the band the. The show the next day, and said to the audience that I had a reaction to my meds, which was the truth. I got on the plane and I drank on the plane going home. When I landed in lax, I called the dealer and I said, you know, is there anything happening? And all. I was off and running. Four later on a Saturday, actually, a Saturday morning, about five days later, the phone rings and I answered, and it's a psychiatrist. He says, I found a place for you. I said, what are you talking about? He said, you called me yesterday and said you wanted to get sober. I said, somebody's using my body again. And he did not laugh. He said, well, you called me yesterday and you said that you didn't want to have to keep lying for the rest of your life. Wow. You said, I don't want to drive with my kids in the car loaded like my dad did with me anymore. And I heard that.

[B]

Yeah, I felt that.

[A]

Yeah, I saw that. And thank you, because it's. It's the moment that my life was saved.

[B]

God bless.

[A]

And I said, yeah. And I said, let's go. I went to a place called New Beginnings. I loved it. I was medically detoxed, and I woke up from the Three day detox. And there was something missing in my life, and it was the cravings. Because for probably 25 years, I would wake up with cravings. I had a job, one job, and that was to find what I needed to take away the cravings. And I was gone. And my connection had always been through my music to the world around me. And for the first time at age 49, my connection is another community of sober men and women. So, I mean, I, I fell in love with it. I went to UCLA for a year. I got my certification as a drug and alcohol counselor. I, I entered what I call the poly Lama period of my life and basically felt like. I mean, the only thing that I did right away was probably at about a year sober, the phone rang and I was. Nobody was hiring me. I was not the flavor in town. And it was Brian Hansen and the Muppets. And they said, we want you to write the songs for the Muppet Christmas Carol interest. Think about it. I'm having a spiritual awakening, and I'm being asked to write about a man who's having a spiritual awakening named Scrooge. We have different addictions, but it's the same disease. I mean, I just. And, and slowly but surely I start writing and I'm loving and I'm active in recovery. At 10 years sober, I go to. Go to Nashville to write, write some more codependent anthems. Staying in a hotel, and while I'm there, I'm asked to speak at the jail because I'm. I go to meetings, you know, in, in. In Nashville when I'm there. So I go to the jail and I speak. And it's like you come out of there after doing H and I, you know, hospitals and institutions, and you're just so full. I mean, you're on fire with it. Oh, my God. And the ego is raging. Oh, my. We fantastic was, though. We saved some lives today. I go back to the hotel and I make my way through a really crowded lobby, so crowded you almost can't get through it with a bunch of guys with, with badges on. I go up to my hotel room feeling like this magical combination of Jiminy Cricket and Gandhi, you know, like I have carried the message. And I go to my hotel room and my God damn magnetic key for the third night in a row will not work. So I have to go.

[B]

It's a particular.

[A]

It's a particular. It's. It's a, you know, that go back. So you got to go back down through that crowd and all. And it's A quick trip from Gandhi to himler for me. I'm just like, go down. I make my way through this crowd, and I go to the kid behind the counter, and I say, you know what? I know it's not your fault, but why should I have to go through this crowd three nights in a row? At which point there's a tap on my shoulder. I turn around, and there's a guy there. His name is Gary. It says oklahoma City. He says, I don't want to bother you. He said, I just wanted to say hi. I booked you 10 years ago. I went, that guy, Oklahoma City. Were you the. When I did my Linda Blair. Lick me. Lick me. Spitting my head around the exorcist moment. He said, yeah, that was me. And I was like, well, I'm 10 years sober. And I just spoke with the jail. You know, I've been going through all this. This stuff about. About how fantastic I am. Paulie this, poly that. Paulie, blah, blah, blah, certified drug, blah, blah. He said, ye up. I heard in the rooms you were sober. And I go, that's. I said, are you friend to Bill, as in recovery? And he reaches into his pocket and he pulls out a chip for 17 years. And I did the math, and I realized you were seven years sober. I said, what'd you think? He said, I was scared to death, thought you were dying. I said, what'd you do? He said, I called my sponsor. I said, of course you did. You don't want to be alone when you got some fried gnome doing his impression of a demon, you know? I said, what'd your sponsor do? He said, he hung up on me. I said, really? Why? He said, so he could start making phone calls. And he put together. He says, which I did as well. We put together a prayer circle. Wow. And we prayed that in or out of the rooms that you would find recovery. Most important story I get to share. Because there's an energy. There's no. In a blackout. I called a doctor.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I was not there. I was not my choice. And there is no way in the world that I can ever do. I mean, like, I have a higher power I call the big amigo. It's not a God of my understanding. I don't understand. I don't understand electricity either, but I use it. I flick a switch, and it lights up my life. There's something in the energy of that prayer that I will never claim my sobriety. I will always realize that it was an absolute gift.

[B]

Well, I'll end here because I think what you're saying is very important to me. My father was an addict my whole life. He started playing music when he was 17 and probably became a professional when he was 19. In terms of, like, he was gigging the five sets, you know, like they used to do back in the 60s. So that's the world that I was born into. People in the basement smoking weed. And of course, when I went to bed, they'd snort coke all night. And then I get up in the morning and they tell me to go clean the basement, but don't touch the powder on the mirrors. Well, that's our special, you know, roll $20 bills. That's what I grew up in. My dad never. Never found his success. And I do believe he had the talent, but. And, you know, it was a convenient story, you know, the Chicago mob, this. And I could have done that. And I'm sure you've met those musicians. You know, there's a story.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But at the end of the day, it was, yeah, it's not that close.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And. And my father was my hero. I mean, he. I looked up to him. He was like. He was the coolest guy on the planet, you know, And I watched my father just, you know, disintegrate to where he's playing Holiday Inns, hates music. Very bitter about his missed opportunities. And I. I had no idea in the. In the 80s when I was living with him when I was about 17, that he was addicted to heroin and coke. Had no idea. I knew they partied. And. And for anybody who is either in that atmosphere or has had issues themselves, My father was one of those guys. I never saw him out of control. He was a functional addict.

[A]

Functional.

[B]

Even when he was high on coke and heroin, he was cool and funny, and he passed the smell test. You know, I mean, he. I. I think there was maybe one time I saw him kind of over his skis a little bit up.

[A]

Considerate, Nice man.

[B]

Dependent on the day. Yeah, very. You know, the word I would tend to use is sociopath in the sense of he rotated his personalities depending on the situation. So with his. With his friends, he was super charming. And then the minute they walked out the door, he'd go, come. No talent hacks.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

So I watched all this go on. I watched my father disintegrate. And then. And then when I was getting successful, brought out the worst in him, the bitterness.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

How can my kid be somebody? And. And my father. My father was jailed three separate times in three different decades, Always with massive felonies, selling drugs, primarily wow. The last time he was busted, he was 60. One bag full crown roll, bag full of heroin. 17 felony ex counts. He was sitting on a. On a. In Florida. They, you know, they have these kind of dormitory type situations. So he's in a dorm with 300 other guys, and a lawyer walks in and says, hi, I'm your lawyer. And he says, who sent you? And he said, my son. He said he thought. He thought she was lying because why would his son try to rescue him when he's on his knee again? That if that was the end of the story, that would be a nice story. But he ended up stealing money for me. And, you know, it never ended. It only stopped when he reached a point of physical debilitation that he couldn't function. He couldn't be an addict anymore because he couldn't handle it. He didn't stop because he wanted to. He never got sober. You know what I'm saying?

[A]

So he drank, but gave up the heroin or whatever.

[B]

It went from. It went from pills to, you know. You know what I'm saying?

[A]

It's.

[B]

It just never ended. So what I want to say to you as the son of a. Of an addict is I'm so glad that you found your way out of that, because in my father's case, he never did. And the shame of it is, is you. And I could sit here and laugh and cry and tell that story and live to write another song. You know what I'm saying? And so I hope that at least anybody who's either in it, because Al Anon's been very helpful to me. So I highly recommend Al Anon for people who are aggrieved in familial or relationship situations, but even those who are struggling with addiction, it's like, you really need to understand that there are great things ahead, but you got to be there to experience them.

[A]

That's the. You know, the hidden ingredient in this conversation. I just got. Thank you. And. And. And it's your recovery that, you know, you didn't cause it. You couldn't cure it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That you can't control it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And that's. It's. I think it's one of the most remarkable, remarkable feats is to come face to face with that helpless. That level of helplessness and the wisdom. You know, I heard a woman say one time when somebody was talking about trying to get their kids sober, and I know very much about that world, she said, you know, you got to remember, God has no grandchildren. It's like, yeah. And it's like, you know, whatever your thoughts are about a higher power spirituality and all that. But, but I could feel that from you and I think it's, it has, it speaks to my level of comfort, you know, and, and wanting to have a real conversation with you and instead of just showing off because I'm really, really easy for my ego to just go, I got this. And, and just be clever and, and, and, and, and I don't want to be that man.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I want to, I want to be this guy.

[B]

You want to be that man.

[A]

Yeah. But, but that doesn't mean that, that doesn't mean it's a lot of fun. Yeah. Yeah. And the thing is that it's, it is, it's ego driven and the like and I mean it's a sign that I would even have a. I mean it's, that's why I asked you if I was going really fast because I get into that into. And that's kind of an ego driven edges of, of the enthusiasm sometimes. But what you just took us. It just makes me love you more.

[B]

God bless you already. Love you too.

[A]

Thank you.

[B]

Thank you.

[A]

This was a really good time. I had a really good time.