Sharon Osbourne | The Magnificent Others with Billy Corgan

Summary

Podcast Summary

The Magnificent Others with Billy Corgan

Episode: Sharon Osbourne | The Magnificent Others with Billy Corgan
Date: February 19, 2025

Overview

In this rich, candid, and deeply personal episode, Billy Corgan hosts Sharon Osbourne for a sweeping conversation that spans her childhood in post-war Britain, her family's storied history in the music business, the origins and preservation of Black Sabbath and Ozzy Osbourne’s solo career, the dark and dazzling realities of the entertainment industry, motherhood, survival, the creation of Ozzfest, breaking new ground with reality television, and healing old family wounds. The episode is filled with riveting stories, hard-won insights, and moments of vulnerability, humor, and wisdom.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Childhood and the Shadow of War (00:40 - 04:53)

• Post-War Britain: Sharon reflects on growing up amid bomb sites and leftover wartime artifacts like gas masks and air raid shelters.
  • “Even when I left at 12, there was still bomb sites.” (01:05, Sharon)
  • Family was keenly aware of the social tensions and anti-Semitism that persisted after WWII, including the presence of public figures like Oswald Mosley.
• Jewish Identity and Prejudice: Sharon describes early experiences with anti-Semitic jibes among peers.
  • “It was, 'oh, you killed Jesus, you started World War II.' ... Being a Jew, it was like you very much got [that].” (02:35, Sharon)

2. The Show Business Family (05:13 - 11:36)

• Mother and Grandmother: Sharon’s mother and grandmother were both professional dancers and choreographers.
• Father’s Early Life: Her father, Don Arden (born Herschel Levy, later Harry Levy), aimed to be a cantor, but turned to entertainment and show business.
  • “He carried that [entertainer] with him all the time. And he was very dramatic. And when he would walk in a room, you’d notice...” (11:44, Sharon)
• Culture at Home: The family home was a hub for musicians and industry figures, not other children.
  • “We didn’t have birthday parties … cause it was a house where work was going on all the time.” (09:29, Sharon)

3. Legends in the Living Room (12:06 - 16:04)

• Sharon witnessed legendary artists like Jerry Lee Lewis, Little Richard, James Brown, Chuck Berry, and The Everly Brothers as a child.
  • “Sam Cooke, he was the one that stood out for me. I adored watching him perform.” (15:51, Sharon)
• Don Arden was both a promoter and manager for these acts, assembling legendary concert packages.

4. Industry Realities: The Good, The Bad, The Mob (18:32 - 23:14)

• Music "Business" vs. Music "Industry": Sharon remarks on smaller scale and closer personal relations of the "business" era.
• Chart Fixing, Payola, and Mob Ties: She openly discusses common industry practices like buying singles to influence charts and connections with mob figures and The Kray Twins.
  • “There were no laws. It was, you know, they were pioneers.” (20:43, Sharon)
• This era was wild, sometimes violent, and loaded with both opportunity and risk.

5. Breaking In: From Stage School to Receptionist (17:21 - 28:42)

• Sent to stage school, Sharon entertained a dream of dancing but was also practical about her place in the family business.
• At age 15, she left school to work as a receptionist in her father's office, where she first encountered Black Sabbath.
  • “Terrible. Because I used to answer the phone, and I would answer the phone with different accents … I’d get bored.” (27:35, Sharon)

6. The Black Sabbath Origin Story (28:43 - 36:10)

• Sharon details first meetings with Sabbath, her initial impressions, industry machinations, and the chaotic early years.
  • “I saw Ozzy at 18. They played a club in London called the Marquee … I was like, what the hell is this?” (26:58, Sharon)
• The band’s mistrust of her father, manipulation by others, and eventual split with their original management.

7. Managing Ozzy—Love, Loyalty, and Reinvention (36:24 - 54:37)

• Band Politics and Ouster: Sharon offers an insider account of Ozzy’s firing from Sabbath driven by internal jealousy and misconceptions about his role.
  • “If you don’t play an instrument … your value in their eyes was this big. You just sing.” (37:30, Sharon)
• Rebuilding and Reinvention: Her absolute faith that Ozzy could thrive solo, her pivotal role in assembling his new band with Randy Rhoads.
  • “I had a lot to prove. Ozzie had a lot to prove. Randy had a lot to prove.” (46:23, Sharon)
• Breaking with Her Father: Deep professional and personal estrangement unfolded while Sharon tried to secure Ozzy’s rights and resources, including tense confrontations with go-betweens.
  • “Wherever we went, there was somebody… he’d send his little Italian guys that would turn up at gigs and say, the publishing. Your father still wants Ozzy’s publishing.” (50:53, Sharon)

8. Managing Love; The “Job” of Wife and Manager (52:42 - 54:11)

• Sharon discusses the inherent challenges:
  • “His answer is, I never knew who was talking to me. My wife or my manager.” (53:03, Sharon)
• She describes the prescience behind diversifying Ozzy’s brand beyond just music, though admits to missteps:
  • “He got offered to go and read for Pirates of the Caribbean … I said no. Now, wouldn’t he have been perfect?” (54:05, Sharon)

9. Coping with Addiction, Family, and Survival (55:17 - 60:47)

• Personal and Family Resilience: Sharon opens up about staying committed through Ozzy’s challenges with addiction for the sake of her children and her deep love for him.
  • “I cannot have my kids come from a broken home. I cannot, I just can't do it… And I just adored him so much that whatever he would throw at me, I’d throw back at him.” (56:08, Sharon)
• The volatility of their relationship, public/media controversies, and the brutal conservatism of the old music industry.
• On what defines success:
  • “Survival.” (60:25, Sharon)

10. Ozzfest, The Osbournes, and TV Fame (60:47 - 67:52)

• Ozzfest Genesis: Created in response to being dismissed by Lollapalooza’s bookers who called Ozzy ‘not relevant’.
  • “I’m gonna show you, you bastards. How dare you say that about an artist?... We'll do our own festival.” (66:58, Sharon)
• The Osbournes Reality Show: Began as an MTV “Cribs” episode, turned into a phenomenon. Sharon admits to regret and surprise at its impact.
  • “I can remember my best friend, who is an agent, said to me, you can't let this go out. This is disgraceful … And I’m like, oops, too late.” (65:53, Sharon)
• The TV career that followed was pragmatic, not planned, and Sharon describes tension over pay and industry sexism.
  • “It’s just tv … if you don’t want it, someone else will … You're replaceable.” (75:08, Sharon)

11. Family, Reconciliation, and Moving On (68:00 - 71:48)

• Story of long estrangement from her father after business splits, and the difficult journey to reconciliation when he became ill and lost everything.
  • “I called him … I’m coming to England. I’m going to get you fixed up, and I’m going to bring you back to America. And that’s what I did.” (70:16, Sharon)
• Music provided solace in his last days.

12. Mental Health, Longevity, and a Changing Industry (79:36 - 91:12)

• Sharon admits lifelong depression and a late-life ADHD diagnosis; reflects on survival as the enduring metric for success as a woman in music management.
• Returns to fierce criticism of the modern music business:
  • “I'm not happy at the way the industry's running … They forget that it’s human beings that they're dealing with…” (88:00, Sharon)

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Memorable Quotes & Notable Moments

• On industry alienation:
  “You have to deny what you are.” (09:00, Sharon)
  “There were no laws. There were no laws. It was, you know, they were pioneers. So lawyers, this, the other. Forget it.” (20:43, Sharon)

• On Ozzy’s unique gift:
  “You can’t dislike him. He had the best smile in the world … He always remained … a fan of music.” (39:57, Sharon)
  “He’s a very delicate soul. And it sounds crazy saying that about Ozzy, but he’s a very delicate soul.” (84:42, Sharon)

• On the lessons of legacy and survival:
  “Survival.” (60:25, Sharon)
  “This is all I know… I didn't know anything else. This is how I live.” (83:08, Sharon)

• On the music business:
  “They own that album, and I cannot. And it’s the same with everything, film, everything. It’s like, what are we doing here?... It’s human beings that they're dealing with. We're not cars. We're not cans of soup.” (88:56, Sharon)

• On reconciliation:
  “… when my father died, I went and sat with him for a while, said everything I wanted to say.” (71:38, Sharon)

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Timestamps for Major Segments

• 00:40 - 04:53: Sharon on post-war Britain and Jewish identity
• 05:13 - 11:36: Family history in show business
• 12:06 - 16:04: Legendary artists in childhood
• 18:32 - 23:14: Mob ties and music business ethics
• 17:21 - 28:42: From stage school to receptionist, seeing Sabbath
• 28:43 - 36:10: Meeting Black Sabbath, origin story
• 36:24 - 54:37: Managing Ozzy & going solo
• 60:47 - 67:52: Ozzfest & The Osbournes
• 68:00 - 71:48: Estrangement and reconciliation with father
• 79:36 - 91:12: Mental health and music industry critiques
• 88:00: “I’m not happy at the way the industry’s running...” (Sharon’s final critique)

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Final Reflections

The conversation is an extraordinary look at the real, and at times painful, heart of rock 'n' roll legacy and the relentless spirit required to survive—and triumph—in a merciless industry. Sharon Osbourne emerges as a fiercely loyal, principled survivor with a singular ability to blend tenacity, insight, and vulnerability. Through family feuds, industry battles, personal struggles, and unbridled creativity, her story is one of resilience, grit, and enduring love.

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Not to be missed for:

• Fascinating insider tales of music legends
• Candid reflections on gender, power, and survival in show business
• Unfiltered perspectives on managing addiction, family, and reconciliation
• Sharp, passionate criticism of the modern music industry
• Sharon’s trademark blend of wit, honesty, and heart

Transcript

[A]

I'm not happy at the way the industry's run.

[B]

Okay. I love this part.

[A]

Never said this to anyone. He got offered to go and read for.

[B]

And you said no?

[A]

I said no.

[B]

What's your sort of first impression? Did you have an impression of him? The band put me in the room a little bit.

[A]

Well, it was packed, it was sweaty when it started. I'm like, what the hell is this? I can remember my best friend, who is an agent, said to me, you can't let this go out. This is disgraceful. You cannot. You've got to stop it. And I'm like, oops, too late.

[B]

Too late. So I've read a lot of biographies about musicians that were born into post war Britain. This kind of, you know, there were still bomb sites and kids playing in homes that had been, you know, ripped out of the ground and stuff like that. Do you have memories like that? Is that. I'm. I guess I'm asking an atmospheric question about what you remember about post war Britain.

[A]

Yeah. In fact, the house where I grew up, I. We moved from there. So from 1 to 12, I lived in a house that at right behind was still bomb sites. Even when I left at 12, there was still bomb sites.

[B]

And what, what did people tell you, like, here in America, it was always the Great Depression. That's what you always heard about. You heard about World War II, but World War II didn't happen here.

[A]

Right.

[B]

It was about grandpa went overseas and they didn't want to talk about what he saw, that type of stuff. But of course, Europe lived in the site of the war. So what did that feel like? And what did people tell you about the war?

[A]

Everything was related to the war. There were even, I can remember as a child, there were gas masks hanging as you came into our house where you'd hang your coat. There were gas masks hanging still.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And there were air raid shelters at the bottom of our garden.

[B]

Wow. Yeah. Did that leave an impression on you in any way? I'm just curious.

[A]

Yeah. Because we all. I mean, we all played on the bomb sites. It was right at the back of our house. There was a whole street that had gone.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And all the kids in the area, you know, it was the time where you did play in the streets.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And we would always be there. And too with my husband, he. He too played on bomb sites.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And it was just very much a part of our lives. It was, oh, you killed Jesus. You started World War II.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because being a Jew, it was like you very much got, ah, I Never

[B]

thought about it that way. When I was a kid, I heard that, you know, if you. We didn't have as many Jewish classmates where I grew up, but you know, the one kid that was. They'd say, you killed Jesus. We. No one even knew what it meant.

[A]

No, but you used to say it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I used to hear it and go, this guy Jesus.

[B]

Yeah, well, yeah, yeah, because I was thinking about it in knowing I was going to talk to you. Because obviously with Sabbath and Ozzy's music, you do feel that growing up in the horror of war. I mean, War Pigs is one of the great anti war songs of all time. You know, it's in the lyrics. And even, you know, the American and UK fascination with comic books and this idea of self empowerment, superheroes and fighting the Nazis and all this type of stuff. Captain America. But I thought, you know, it didn't strike me that it was part of your story that I know about, but I thought it must have affected you and it certainly affected your family very much.

[A]

And there was this guy called Mosley and he was a sir and he was a Nazi. And after the war he was still hanging around in England.

[B]

Oh, wow. Was he a British subject though, or not British?

[A]

Yeah. Very, very well spoken. Used to hang out with the Royal family. He's one of his bestest friends in the world was the king that abdicated.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And they ended up living near each other in France. So they were always buddy buddies. And he was a huge Nazi and used to give rallies everywhere in England. And my dad used to go. And there would be fights all the time because the Jewish people would go. They'd be.

[B]

This is pre war after. After too.

[A]

After. Yeah.

[B]

Wow. I don't know how anybody could defend that after, but.

[A]

Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.

[B]

This always reminds me that. That famous Monty Python skit where Hitler is Hilter. Yes. It's John Cleese and he's like. He's running for local council. You know, there's. That's what he. Anyway, sorry.

[A]

They're the best. I mean, they're funniest.

[B]

I want to talk about your dad, but there's not a ton of information about your mother. And you know, again, it's. We're in this world of information. There's so much information readily but readily available. But if you want to dig deeper, it just goes into nothing.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

And so I found some pictures of your mother in sort of ballerina costumes and her being a ballerina and even some insinuation that you too wanted to be A ballerina.

[A]

But I did.

[B]

Yeah. But tell me, like, was your mother like a vaudevillian, as what we would say here?

[A]

Absolutely. And her mother was a choreographer.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

And my mom was a dancer. So she would be in my grandmother's. Would get troops of girls and put them out on different circuits. Circuits.

[B]

Ah, yeah.

[A]

And so my mom was a dancer. Her mother was a choreographer. Dancer. And my mom married a musical conductor.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

And he was very well known, apparently. And the marriage didn't last. She had a son and a daughter with her first husband divorced. And in those times, nobody would get divorced. You were like, oh, yeah, you know, she must be a bad woman. And she met my father, who at this time was a singer.

[B]

Right. I have heard recordings of your father. I went out of my way. I never knew he sang. I mean, I certainly know his legacy in music, but not a bad voice.

[A]

Yeah, he had a good voice. And he. What did you hear? Sunrise, Sunset.

[B]

I heard that. I tried to find him. There was some insinuation that he kind of did like an Elvis imitation record, but I couldn't find that.

[A]

No, no.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

No, he was very much like a crooner. Yeah, right. Yeah. And so they married. After six weeks, they got married.

[B]

Right. So it was kind of a love at first sight type of thing. So I'd rather ask you than sort of poke around with what I read. But tell me about your father's pre war life. Cause there's some sense that he too, was a bit of a vaudevillian. Comic acting. Can you illustrate that a little bit?

[A]

Okay. Before, he wanted to be a cantor, and he was brought up very religious, very religious Jew. And he trained, did all the training, and then just decided, no, I want to be an entertainer.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

And so he used to do impressions and sing.

[B]

Right. The things I saw is that he did impressions of, like, Al Jolson.

[A]

Yes, he did.

[B]

Yeah, he did, yeah. Did you think it's hard? Because obviously his legacy in music as a manager is what people talk about. But did you think he had talent himself as a performer?

[A]

Yeah, he did. And I can remember, like, as a baby, baby, after the war, my father would put packages together and he would go and entertain the troops, the American troops all over the world. And so my brother and I would go and we'd watch him. I mean, we were always together, traveling and. Yeah, I grew up in a lot of American culture bases all over Europe.

[B]

I didn't know that about you. Yeah, yeah. So I don't want to make assumptions, but he changed his name, Harry.

[A]

He was Herschel Levy. Harry Levy.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And he couldn't get any work, and so he changed it to Arden.

[B]

Yeah. That's such a painful thing, you know, when I think back.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That people had to change their name.

[A]

You have to deny what you are.

[B]

Yeah. So you're born basically into show business. Did you feel that? Does that? Cause I, you know, I think, you know, my father was a musician. I just remember being a kid, like, there were always people around, you know, people in the house, people in the basement getting stoned. It was just part of my life. It was normal to me. But looking back, I realized why to other kids in the neighborhood, it was very exotic. Did you. Did you feel that way, too?

[A]

The same thing, Billy. It was like we didn't have birthday parties for us and things like that in the house. Cause it was a house where work was going on all the time. So it was an intrusion and we fitted in and we knew how to behave. But there weren't kids coming in and out of our house. Never. And same thing. Musicians coming in and out and other agents and this and that, you know.

[B]

So what was your sense of it then? And I guess what I'm saying is, like, what was your sense of the music business then? Because if you had gone on to be, say, an actor, it would be relevant in a way, but you end up becoming into that same world.

[A]

Yeah, it was. We didn't mix with anybody unless they were in the industry.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

That's the way it was.

[B]

Was it because. Because it was the people you choose to associate with or. There was. I know, back, and I was Talking about the 70s, people treated anybody in the music business as less than. There was a feeling that, you know, my father was doing something untoward by being a musician. Yeah.

[A]

Get a proper job.

[B]

Yeah. That was always. My father complained his whole life that my step grandmother had once told him, when are you going to get a real job?

[A]

Yeah, exactly.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And other people. Yes. Would think, oh, they're odd. You know, they're a bit extreme. I want to mix with them. But we always kept within what my mother and father were doing.

[B]

Where do you think your father's love of the business came from?

[A]

He loved music. He just loved music. And that was his whole life. And he could read and write music.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

And it's very rare for when he did become a manager, for the manager to read and write music. And the musicians that were coming up then, not many of them could.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And my father could talk in technical terms to Other musicians.

[B]

You know, the stories are allegiant about your father's sort of way of doing business. But then in the same breath, whether it was like Kenny Jones or something, talking about.

[A]

He was so charismatic, very charismatic. He. Because being an entertain, he carried that with him all the time. And he was very dramatic. And when he would walk in a room, you'd notice this because of the presence that he exuded. And he was very, very charismatic.

[B]

Was Gene Vincent like his first kind of really big act that he managed, or would you point to somebody before that?

[A]

No, it was Gene. It was Gene.

[B]

Yeah. Cause I remember seeing David Bowie perform actually on his last tour. I think David knew then he was sick and did this kind of last year, but he didn't tell anybody until later. But I remember he. And he was very chatty in a way that he usually wasn't on a stage. And he told a story very deliberately about how seeing Gene Vincent perform around the time your father would have been managing him, basically, in his mind, created the Ziggy Stardust character. And that the way Ziggy stood on stage was a complete emulation. Cause Gene Vincent had this weird motorcycle accident.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

He tells this whole story on stage.

[A]

I never have heard that story.

[B]

Isn't that cool?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Cause that goes right back to your father's.

[A]

He had a bolt between the knee, either side of his leg, and it went under his.

[B]

Like a booted brace or something.

[A]

Yeah, it was two metal rods. I mean, it was really bad. And he was really the first rock star that came up. He was unbelievable.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So the first guy I ever saw

[B]

wear black leather, shades of things to come. Right. So you're, I think, 8, 10 around this time. So what's your impression of that world at this point? I mean, you're old enough to know, okay, this is Dad's business. These are people like, what's your impression? Because I always like to ask people, like, how they felt in the time. Because obviously we know Gene Vincent is a legend. Rock and roll has a lot of debt to Gene Vincent and Elvis and these great pioneers. But at the time, you're just a little girl and there's Gene Vincent, like, at the office or. Yeah, you know, what was your thought about somebody like that? Did you. Did you see him as having a different type of charisma, or did it strike you? I guess is what I'm trying to say.

[A]

Yeah, because he had a very strong accent. He had a very strong American accent.

[B]

Was it like Brooklyn or. I don't know, his.

[A]

No, it was like he would, like, slide his words and with the booze, too. He had a very slurry accent. Slow. He would speak very slowly.

[B]

So in growing up in this musical family, who were some of the music. Who were some of the musicians or artists that you liked, even if they weren't managed by your father?

[A]

Oh, it was all the people that my dad. I mean, I got to see amazing, incredible artists as a child and knowing they were special. But then as time gone by. How special?

[B]

Oh, I see real. Can you name some names? I'm just curious.

[A]

Jerry Lee Lewis. James Brown in the early days. Chuck Berry. Little Richard. Who was. I always kept in touch with him.

[B]

Really?

[A]

Always kept it.

[B]

Did he always know that you guys knew each other all those years, then

[A]

met Ozzy and the whole thing? Yeah.

[B]

That's so cool.

[A]

Yeah. The Everly Brothers adored them.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Brenda Lee. My dad managed Brenda Lee for a while.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

I just read in touch with her.

[B]

Yeah. I just read Graham Nash's book, and he talked about standing on the stairs outside of some English hotel where he got to meet the Everly Brothers and how that changed the course of his life just for them to listen to him and give him that two minutes of like.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, it's such an interesting thing, because it's.

[A]

Sorry for.

[B]

No, no, no. I want. I'm here to hear from you, not from me.

[A]

Sam Cooke, he was the one that stood out for me.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I adored watching him perform.

[B]

So was your dad promoting and managing?

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Okay, so that makes sense. So that's why you're seeing these great artists that are coming over.

[A]

Yes. He would put these packages together, and they were just. I look now at some of the old programs that I have, and I'm like, oh, my God. All these artists.

[B]

Daddy really had a sense of, like, he felt what was going on and he saw it. Did he like rock and roll?

[A]

Loved it.

[B]

Oh, interesting.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

There's not a lot of guys who grew up liking what he liked.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

In that generation made that transition. You know, Frank Sinatra famously was criticizing the Beatles.

[A]

Yeah, exactly. He. He embraced it.

[B]

I came very late to appreciate how good the small faces were. Did you? Did you.

[A]

I went to school with Stevie Marriott.

[B]

Okay. Cause I want to ask you about Steve. So. So. But, I mean, at the time, did you. I know they. They were sort of a. In a way, like a teen sensation, but they had musical credibility.

[A]

They did.

[B]

And my big harp. And I'm. I'm kind of embarrassed to admit it now. I think they might be One of the most influential bands ever, but somehow in America, because when they caught on, it was kind of later. 30 days in the Hole, like grittier rock. But when you go back and listen to the whole thing, especially with Steve and Small Faces, and you realize, like, how many people ripped him off, including Led Zeppelin, and it's unbelievable.

[A]

His voice is incredible, Just incredible. I was sent to a stage school and so the school, like a performing

[B]

arts type of thing.

[A]

Yes. So you learned all the performing arts. And of course.

[B]

Is this you trying to be a dancer at this point?

[A]

Anything. Cause it was like my father said, unless you could entertain, you'll never earn a living. So Stevie was at the school and he was in a production of Oliver in London.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And he played the Artful Dodger.

[B]

Yeah, right.

[A]

And I mean, that voice of his was just incredible. And he was tiny, tiny little.

[B]

He's tinier than you. Right.

[A]

And he was like real spousy bousy ballsy. Like would argue with anyone.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. See, I think it's interesting because like I said, now we can sit here and talk and we can say, this person's a legend and this person's in the Rock and Roll hall of Fame. But at the time, the business was a fraction of the size it is now.

[A]

It was still a business. It was still the music business instead of the music industry.

[B]

Ah, I see. That's an interesting point. So I saw something, and before I say it, I know that Brian Epstein did it, but there's some thing about your dad chart fixing. And there was some controversy about him with Small Faces and chart fixing.

[A]

Yeah. And pay for play on the radio.

[B]

Yeah. They would go and they'd go in the store and buy like a bunch of singles to try to get it.

[A]

Oh, yeah. To get it up in the charts. Yeah. We would all go out on a Saturday and, you know, pocket full of. Of cash and go to every record shop and buy two things.

[B]

That was kind of standard procedure back then.

[A]

Yeah, sure.

[B]

When the Small Faces kind of started to take off, did that sort of change your father's fortune and that now other artists wanted to work with him and the.

[A]

We were.

[B]

Sorry, were they the first kind of young contemporary band that he had association with or.

[A]

Yes. Yeah. That were English too.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And. But we were always had money or completely broke.

[B]

So it was burmabast.

[A]

Yeah, that's the way it was. So I was always used to adapting. You just adapt, you know. Oh, we've got no phone in the house. Cause it's been cut off we didn't pay the bill. No lights. We didn't pay the bill. Or water. Yeah, just. Okay.

[B]

Yeah. I saw a story, I think it was in Peter Frampton's book, where he was talking about he'd had the band, the Herd.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And I think your father had managed him. I don't remember the exact story, but something along the lines of, like, somebody came up and was asking Peter about working with your father. And Peter said something unkind about your father. And a few days later, a couple guys showed up.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Peter stepped outside the club and said, we're going to talk to Don. Like, you get in the car. Took him to the car. He walks in, and there's your dad behind the desk and says, take my name out of your mouth. I'm not trying to say it as some sort of sign of his character. It's more of like. I know that that business back then was very rough and tumble.

[A]

There were no laws. There were no laws. It was, you know, they were pioneers. So lawyers, this, the other. Forget it.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Sign here. Sign now.

[B]

Yeah. Or get out.

[A]

There's two more waiting to come in.

[B]

Yeah. Because my daddy, when he had some opportunities in Chicago in the late 60s, he told me later that the reason he didn't sign because of this implication that you were signing in with the mob people. I'm not saying that's your father's experience, but there was. That was that feeling that there were other forces at play and you had to be careful where you stepped. And I think, at least it's important, pointing it out, because like you said now, it would be about lawyers and magistrates and who says what and what the law is in California.

[A]

Back then, it was nothing at all. And, you know, everybody knew it was quick money, very quick, like gambling. And so everybody wanted a piece. And the mob was very much involved in America.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

In those days, they just were. And my dad had some connections and some. With these guys called the Craze that ended up in England going. Because they had clubs and they would want stars to come and perform in their clubs. And so my father knew them. And.

[B]

Yeah, it's like when you see those old interviews where they're kind of. They're poking around with Frank Sinatra about whether he has any mob ties. Well, the real answer is you couldn't play a club in those days without some organized crime connection, because that's how they laundered their money. And that's.

[A]

And Vegas.

[B]

Well, yeah, that's what I'm saying. I'm saying, is there's another side to that story.

[A]

Yes. Yeah.

[B]

There was no way to play in that sandbox without having to rub elbows with somebody up to something.

[A]

Right. And very much. You know, when artists would come, especially to New York on the east coast, wherever they were, they were involved.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

They owned the buildings, the theaters, and

[B]

the guy put in the chair on the stage. And if you didn't pay something, something.

[A]

Yeah, exactly.

[B]

So this is my understanding of the acts that your dad did manage, but maybe this is a wrong list, but Jerry Lee Lewis, some of the names she had. Little Richard, Gene Vincent, Air Supply, the Move, Black Sabbath, elo. Anybody else that I'm missing on that list? Pretty decent list of success.

[A]

Yeah. So the Nashville Teens. The Animals.

[B]

Oh, that's right.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I didn't know about the Animals.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

Now there's a guy with a great voice.

[B]

Well, there's the famous story of the day they recorded House of the Rising Sun. It was on, like, a houseboat. They went in on this houseboat and recorded it in, like, a couple hours and then drove up the road to a gig. Didn't think anything of it. It's magical times in those ways.

[A]

Yeah. It just.

[B]

Now we make albums forever and Pro

[A]

Tools, and we need to fly here and we need this guy in to do another mix. The purity has kind of gone.

[B]

Yeah. That's why I love talking to you about it, because you were actually there and you saw it happen. Not a lot of people really saw the way that business ran at that time. In many ways, for me, as a fan, it makes those times even more magical because you realize it really was trying to find lightning in a bottle. Yeah. And talent really was the great delineating force. So when you look at small faces, you know, when you listen to that voice, that's not him doing 18 takes. That's him stepping up to a microphone in many ways, live.

[A]

Oh, yeah, you. Oh. We've got four hours tonight, so can we finish?

[B]

Unbelievable. It gives me chills to think about because it's. If you love rock and roll, we love rock and roll. It's humbling, you know? And of course, your husband, one of the great singers of all time. It's like it was there from the beginning. He found it or he had it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It's not like somebody said, well, you know, Oz, can you.

[A]

If you move this way and if you dress this way, and if we get this choreographer in, you know, you'll be. Kids will love it. It just came from within. It was for all of those artists

[B]

I always laugh because there's that concert film of Sabbath playing Paris, like 1970. Yes. And Ozzy's wearing, like a Members Only jacket. It's so. Like, they're playing all these doom songs. Ozzy's in his Members Only jacket. So it's two questions, but take them any way you want. It's what did you want to be or become? And did your father want you in his business? So how does that work as a teenager? Like, how are you if you're. I don't know, pick your age. 12 to 13, you're looking forward.

[A]

I wanted to be a dancer, but I knew I didn't have the dedication that it takes to do ballet. Cause it's like being a gymnast.

[B]

It's like six hours a day type of thing. Right.

[A]

And I didn't have that. I wanted to have fun,

[B]

really.

[A]

And you can't do that if you're.

[B]

So what's fun for you at age 13, 14, just.

[A]

I went to all the gigs I could. All the TV shows where there was music on. There was this show in England called Top of the Pops.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

And so everything that was in the top 20, they would play. And certain artists would come in and perform live.

[B]

So you used to go to see the live Top of the Pop shows?

[A]

Yeah. And then my greatest joy was I got to host it once. And it was my greatest joy.

[B]

When were you when this happened?

[A]

And I couldn't tell anybody there. Cause they would think, oh, I see. You know, I've been watching it since I was this big.

[B]

Right. But how old were you when this happened?

[A]

Oh, God, this happened. I must have done that in 2001. So 23 years ago.

[B]

Oh, okay.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I was thinking it was back then. Oh, oh, oh, oh. I see why you. Oh, yeah. So when's the first time you saw Ozzie in real life?

[A]

I saw Ozzy at 18. And they played a club in London called the Marquee.

[B]

So that would have been what, 1978?

[A]

No, 76.

[B]

76. Okay.

[A]

No. Why am I saying that? No, 70. 71.

[B]

Oh, that early. Okay.

[A]

That early.

[B]

Okay. Right. That's what I was trying to understand.

[A]

Yeah. And there was all the talk in the office. Cause I worked for my father. Then I left school at 15. You could leave school at 15 in the.

[B]

What are you doing in the office at this point?

[A]

I am the receptionist. I am learning the business. And I was a receptionist.

[B]

How are you as a receptionist?

[A]

Terrible. And terrible. Because I used to answer the phone, and I would answer the phone with different Accents on. Because I'd get bored. And I'd done all the accents at drama school. So I'd be American, I'd be all of this. So I just used to play. But there was all this talk in the office that there was this band called Black Sabbath that had a stupid manager from Birmingham and their album had just come out, and there was all of this talk about this album. Nobody's heard music like this before, and it was, you know, a small business. So everybody was talking and they were coming to play in London at the Marquee Club, and every manager in London was there trying to steal the band.

[B]

So you were at that skig where this is this kind of moment.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. Okay. Yeah.

[B]

So what's your. I mean, obviously you have a lot of time to live with your husband since then, but, like, what's your sort of first impression? Did you have an impression of him? The band?

[A]

I was.

[B]

Put me in the room a little bit.

[A]

Well, it was packed, it was sweaty, it was small club. And when it started out, I'm like, what the hell is this? Good. I'd been used to American artists always.

[B]

Ah, I see.

[A]

Or the faces, you know, and they were like, jolly and happy. And I'm like, what the hell is this? What's going on? And the walls were all dripping with sweat. And, you know, I was like, what is this? I couldn't quite make it out. Yeah, but you knew it was special, the vibe in the room and watching everybody's face.

[B]

Yeah. There are those moments in our life musically, where you see or hear something and, you know something's happening, but you haven't figured it out yet. So it's that odd feeling of like, I'm behind something, but why am I behind? I shouldn't like this, but I do. But I don't.

[A]

But, yeah, it was very odd. And so the next day, they were due to come to see my father. So my father sent his chauffeur, who was a very interesting person, and he was also his bodyguard.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

And he was involved with the craze.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

And he had a checkered past, you could say this gentleman.

[B]

It sounds better with your English accent.

[A]

So he went to their hotel, picked them up and brought them to my father's office. The first time they'd ever been in a Rolls Royce. And my father was. He knew how to put it on, you know, impress.

[B]

I gotcha.

[A]

So they came to our offices, which were in Mayfair, in London, and they come in, they sit in reception, and there you are. There am I And they're all sat on the floor. And they wouldn't sit in seats. They had to sit on the floor. And I'm like, what the is going on here? And I'm just taking my calls, you know, trying not to have eye contact with anyone. And then I showed them into my father's office. And then this gentleman, his name was Wilf, who was my father's bodyguard and chauffeur, was to drive them back to the station where they were going home to Birmingham. And he didn't. He took them to a pub.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

And one of the guys who worked for my father, in fact, he used to be Gene Vincent's tour manager for my father. When Richie Blackmore was in the backup band, the Blue Caps, they were called, right? He joined the meeting. He used the tour manager for my father, but he was working every day in the office, this guy. And so he met Wilf. They sat down with Sabbath. Sabbath told them they were terrified of my father and Wilf. And this guy Patrick said, yes, and he'll steal all your money. You don't want to go with him. He will beat you up. He'll do whatever, whatever, whatever. And they were terrified of him anyway because they'd heard stories. And that Friday, Patrick and Wilf left. And they took Black Sabbath. Well, they didn't take them because we never had them, but.

[B]

Oh, I get you. I get you.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So to the romantic side of the equation, you're looking at your future husband. You don't know he's your future husband. Do you have any stars in your eyes?

[A]

Did you feel anything? I. At that point, I was. Honestly, I was so like, oh, God, I can't look at them. I'm embarrassed. I'm, like, insane.

[B]

They were kind of motley back then.

[A]

Yeah, they were. And I was like, oh, I'm embarrassed to look at them. I was used to people coming in, smartly dressed.

[B]

Vibe.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Very sophisticated. London.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And not men.

[B]

Tony Iommi. Cause I got to work with him once on something he was telling me about. When they would come down from Birmingham to London, they would feel like aliens and the press would treat them poorly, and they couldn't wait to go home, because London to them was this alien

[A]

place, really strange for them. And when they first went to America, it was even worse. Can you imagine them in New York? They were scared to leave the hotel.

[B]

Well, so. So at that point, there's no.

[A]

Like, nothing. Yeah, nothing.

[B]

Do you remember talking to Ozzy back then, or. No, I'm just curious. It's the romantic side of me.

[A]

It's. We had nothing but Wilf and Patrick, who left, who took Sabbath. And of course, you know, huge, huge record sales, huge scores. I spoke to Patrick. I had a friendship with him. He'd worked for my dad forever. He was always very nice to me. Not with Wilf, I didn't have a friendship. He was frightened me. But with Patrick I did. And so I used to go to a few gigs my dad didn't know.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

And then I got to meet Ozzy. I'd take girlfriends and we'd go and see a show when they were in London.

[B]

So then you got to know him a little bit socially.

[A]

Yes. So then over time I got to know them and Tony.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

And then Tony would come into town, into la. When I moved to la, he would call, we'd go hang, that sort of thing.

[B]

Just very. Nothing special, just other warm, nice, how you doing? So take me a little bit through. How do they eventually end up with your dad?

[A]

In early 79, Tony was in LA and he said, everything we thought your dad would do, they did to us. They stole. They took everything. The guys would say, can we afford houses? They're listen to this. They did. They would do, you know, a three month tour of America. They would get £1,000 in a check each for the tour. Yeah, but they would think that was a huge amount of money. They were happy with it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And then they'd say, do you think we have enough to ever buy a house? And Patrick would say, sure, yeah, yeah, yeah, go, go buy a house. We'll take care of everything for you. And they would buy houses. They weren't big estates, they were houses, you know, regular houses. And they bought them, but they weren't in their names, they were in Patrick's name. Even the cars that they drove, Patrick's name was on the pink slip. So when it all went up in the air, they came.

[B]

So I know the story's off told, but just simply walk me through, you know, at some point you fall in love and now you're managing, you know, he gets booted out of the band.

[A]

That year, it was that year that Tony called and said, would you, would you talk to your dad? Would he take us back, yada yada. And of course, my father's revenge was, of course I will.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And they came back, they would, you know, they'd always complain about each other. It's a band, you know what it's like in a band.

[B]

Every band complains about everybody all the time. All the hate to blow the mystery.

[A]

But that's the way it is.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And they were always all about Ozzy and this and the other. And Ozzy.

[B]

Can I stop you there? Because I'm such a fan and you were there. And the sense was they somehow they turned on him. But I've never really understood why they turned on him the way they did it was. You know, generally it seems to be couched in. He was getting too crazy or something. But was it. You know, the most striking thing to me is because I've seen this footage where it's like suddenly. And I know they did it different times, but, like, Ozzy's singing on the side in front of the speakers, and Tony's in the middle.

[A]

Tony had him moved to the side so Tony could be in the middle.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I think the long and short of it, really, we all know Ozzy was never a good drinker. He was always the first to be on the floor. I mean, the worst drinker in the world and drug taker. The others could maintain some semblance of we're okay. But Ozzy was always, you know, on the floor. And I honestly think, because Ozzy didn't play an instrument, that his value in their eyes was this big. You just sing. You just sing. All you do is sing. So I honestly think. And it's something I've tried to sort out, but my thing is, is that they were envious because Ozzy got attention, which every lead singer does. It comes with the gig. And they weren't getting the notoriety that he was. And they thought, you don't do anything. You're drunk all the time. And why do you get all this notoriety?

[B]

Sure, sure.

[A]

And I think that had an awful lot to do with it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And they were kids.

[B]

Yeah, that's kids. Yeah. Obviously those bridges have been repaired and, you know, mended long ago. But it's funny, too, because even as a fan, and I was listening to Sabbath Starting in, like, 74, I was very young when I first heard Sabbath, about 8 years old. And to me, it just. It still connects with me. I don't know why, I just love them. But. But the one thing that really does strike me, and because I was a fan during the contemporary times of those 70s and 80s records, I don't think any of us knew, as fans, that Ozzy had a. Had a charisma that went beyond just being a great singer. He's beloved in a way that very few people in music are. And you love the man, but you've also Had a front row seat to, like. The way he connects with people is very unique. Did you have a sense of it then?

[A]

Yes, when I started to hang out with the band more and more. Because really, Tony and I were. Had a friendship. Like, he would come in, you know, like I say, give me a call. I'd take him to some clubs, whatever.

[B]

And Tony's a very sensible person. He's kind of gentlemanly and.

[A]

Very gentlemanly and, I mean, he's just a nice person to hang with.

[B]

Yeah, lovely.

[A]

He's very social. Tony is very social. And, you know, we had a friendship and I just. Ozzy has this thing. He's just. You can't dislike him. He had the best smile in the world. The best smile. He would smile at you and, you know, you'd just like. You'd want to hug him.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And he always remained. He still is a fan of music and other musicians. He's a huge fan. And I think that people got the sense of him that he's very genuine when he says, I love you. Yeah, he does.

[B]

Yeah. You know, like. And you saw it. He would always say in concerts, we love you. And I can't think of anybody who ever said it the way he did. People will say, we love you. Thank you. But he would say it through the whole night. And now, all these years later, I realized he really meant it.

[A]

Yeah, he does. And he. Over and over and over. And there were times when people would say things. Oh, Ozzy's crowd is this, that the other? Have you seen the Aussie crowd? Jesus. You know, nothing like Sting's crowd or the Stones crowd.

[B]

What a thing to say. I understand.

[A]

And Ozzy would go insane. He would go insane when he would hear those things.

[B]

Because to him, it's insulting.

[A]

The people you love, it's insulting. It's like, how dare you. Dare you. These are my people. How dare you say these things? Yeah, it's beautiful, you know, and it's like ticket pricing and, you know, oh, you know, if you want to go see the Stones, it's this much money. And he's always very much like that working mentality. You don't do that. Why make your fans pay more to see you?

[B]

God bless them. So take me through. You've known him for years and then one day you're in love and managing.

[A]

Well, it was when the band had decided definitely Ozzy had to go.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And Tony said to me, who do you think I could get for a singer? And I said, I know this guy, Ronny Dio.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So I introduced them. They got on really well because Ronnie was a very social guy too. Very easy to talk to. And they all hit it off, which was great. And they got rid of Ozzy, which was not great for Ozzy because he didn't have any confidence in himself.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So he thought he was like over embarrassed to go back home to see his wife and kids. Embarrassed to tell them.

[B]

So, but.

[A]

And then my father and I, and we just said, we can keep both. Why not? That's what we do.

[B]

So did you kind of take over sort of day to day management or.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Okay, so where does this lead to your father accusing you of stealing him and all that?

[A]

Because I realized that Ozzy's record I realized with Jeff Lynn. Jeff Lynn I used to work with all the time, and Roy Wood, but

[B]

for context, Ozzy was signed to jet.

[A]

Ozzy was signed to JET Records. And then JET Records was distributed by. In those days, cbs. It's now Sony.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

So we wanted out. Cause I knew for Ozzy that he.

[B]

You wanted out or your father wanted

[A]

out or I wanted Ozzy out because I knew he would never get any money. Never. My dad used to wait after the first tour, where's the money? Give us the money. Cause then you used to get paid in cash still in those days.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

And I'd have bags of money. And he'd say, where's the money? And I'm like, we've gotta pay crew, We've gotta pay this, that. Trucks, buses. And I just knew that we would just be workhorses.

[B]

So Ozzie was still under a contract, a jet, even though he'd been kicked

[A]

out of Cell individually.

[B]

Did he have a key man type of thing?

[A]

It was all. Whenever my dad signed anybody, it wasn't just the band, it was the band and individuals.

[B]

So nobody could.

[A]

No.

[B]

Okay, so do you go to your father and say, he needs to get off of this. And is that where the split starts to happen or.

[A]

My father at that time was going through a lot personally and he had decided to leave my mother and he'd got some young woman that he was living with here and his head wasn't in it. All he wanted was the money.

[B]

I see.

[A]

I mean, he always wanted the money. My father's attitude was, I'll make you a star and I'll take the money.

[B]

That's the. Okay, so what happened first? You taking a bigger role in Ozzie's musical life or falling in love? Like, how does that. What's the sequence there?

[A]

Taking care of Ozzy he was married, two little babies. And it was one of those cases of having such belief in him that this is gonna work.

[B]

Did you just feel it?

[A]

Yeah. And then when. Of course, when we met Randy, it was, you know, we were like the Three Musketeers.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And I managed Randy, and he was under contract to me, not my father.

[B]

I didn't know that part of the story.

[A]

No.

[B]

Very good.

[A]

And I learned from my father.

[B]

Well, you are his daughter.

[A]

And it was just a very magical time when you believe in something so much and your whole being is in it. And I had a lot to prove. Ozzie had a lot to prove. Randy had a lot to prove.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

So it was like, that's all we did, was work, work, work.

[B]

Would you say at that point, your faith was greater in Ozzie than Ozzie's faith in.

[A]

Yes. Because he didn't believe in himself. He kept saying, I know I can't do it without Sabbath. You know, nobody will want me. Nobody will remember me. They won't care about me. And I'm like, nah, you can do it.

[B]

Yeah. I have this beautiful memory of playing basketball in my front yard. You know, we had a little hoop, and they said, coming up, the new song from Ozzy Osbourne, the former lead singer of Black Sabbath, you know. But then they went to commercial.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So I'm just out there shooting baskets. And so it would have been Crazy Train, I think, would have been the first song. And I. And I. It was that one of those moments in your life where you stop and you go, what is. What is this? Because I'd heard all the Sabbath records, and I certainly recognized his voice, but it was like. It felt like this lightning bolt, like something is happening.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I couldn't wait to hear it again. I felt like I was at the middle of something so new. I could really feel it. And I was, you know, 14 years old, playing basketball. But I remember stopping and just looking at the boombox. Because whatever you all had created in that moment, it was shocking. It had that, like, great music has a way of feeling like you're fast forwarding in the timeline all of a sudden. Subject. Your father's on the business side. So did you guys have an amicable. Okay, I'm gonna manage him. Or he didn't refuse or, like, just give me. Walk me through the business side of it all.

[A]

He wasn't actively working, my father. He was there, sure, but he wasn't actually physically doing anything. I was.

[B]

But Oz is under contract to my father, to your daddy. So how does that work?

[A]

Well, I was doing all the work. We were. He paid him his advance for his first album, which was $50,000 for Blizzard. But we back to back made two albums.

[B]

Right. While you were waiting for the first one, I wanted to ask you, was that waiting because you guys knew you had a hot record and you were trying to set it up.

[A]

I just said, we're gonna spend so long touring the world that we need to have a record come right away. So we did them back to back. And my father hadn't paid Ozzy or Randy for the second album.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

And I was like, you can't do this. They won't. And I would lie and I'd say, they're refusing to go on stage until you pay them their records. So I was like playing mind games with him. And because I wasn't on his side, that was really the thing that broke.

[B]

He saw you as siding more with yes.

[A]

And then he would be him against us, and we were this force, and it was just like breaking worldwide and he wasn't a part of it. And they kept saying, randy's terrible. He's got to go, because that's crazy. They didn't have control of Randy.

[B]

I see.

[A]

So they wanted Randy out. And we're like, no, he ain't going nowhere. He's staying. And my father, we would hardly speak. And then one year went to a year and a half and it was hostile and.

[B]

But Ozzy's still under contract.

[A]

Your daddy still under contract. And then we said, we're getting married and we want out. Totally, totally out. What do we have to do to get away from you?

[B]

So now it's just a business thing, right?

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

So he said he wanted a million and a half and an album. And in those days, you know, it was load of money.

[B]

That's a lot of money.

[A]

So he want.

[B]

It's still a lot of money.

[A]

He wanted a million and a half and another album. So we said, okay. So I had to go to the record company and say, ozzy's going to be leaving Jet. You want to sign him directly. Which they did.

[B]

So you got the future advance to.

[A]

You've got it.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

And so they gave me the money to pay my father. And then we gave him. We're thinking, God, what can we give him? Quick to get rid of it.

[B]

Like a live record.

[A]

A live Sabbath record. So it was like, sorry to the fans, but we had to do this.

[B]

Yeah, I like that record still. So it's kind of fun.

[A]

So that got Rid of him. But I did get rid of my father. My father was. Wherever we went, there was somebody, you know, he'd send his little Italian guys that would turn up at gigs and say, the publishing. Your father still wants Oz's publishing. He's not giving up on that. And the guy would sit there and he'd have his foot on the coffee table and. And he'd have a gun in his boot, and he'd pull his trousers up to try and scare me. And I'd be like, I don't give a. What you've got in your boot. I don't give a. Yeah.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

He's not signing.

[B]

Wow. Yeah.

[A]

And so it was hell. It was hell.

[B]

I was gonna say the little girl in you. It's gotta. Breaks your heart. No.

[A]

Oh, my God. It was like my father had died. I was pining my father, pining for

[B]

him, because up to then you guys had had a good.

[A]

Yeah, I listen with elo, I stood behind him with everything. And I was. You know, Jeff Lynn was a friend of mine.

[B]

Right.

[A]

He lived at my house. Him and his first wife lived at my house with me in la. We were. It was like a family.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

And then when Jeff said to me, your father owes me 4 million. And I'm like, 4 million? No, he doesn't. And that was. Jeff was the thing that actually turned the light on in my head that what people were saying was true.

[B]

So walk me through a little bit of what it's like to manage the man that you love.

[A]

It's very difficult. It's very difficult. Billy, he. And even he says somebody asked him that question, what was it like being married to your manager? And his answer is, I never knew who was talking to me. My wife or my manager.

[B]

A bit of both, maybe.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Well, in many ways, what you would think was best for him as a wife and for your family is probably the best thing for him, too. In reflecting on your managing Ozzy, I think not only have you done an incredible job, and I can give you some specifics of why I think why that is, but I also think that you were very ahead of your time in figuring out that what Ozzie brought to the table and Ozzie's ability to connect with people, you broke him past the boundaries of music, which nowadays is kind of standard operating procedure. But you figured that out way earlier than most people. I don't think anybody in the music business, circa 1986, figured that Ozzy had tons of money in him in 50 different directions.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Did you have a Prescient sense that that's where the business was gonna go, or that's what. Just how you wanted, how you saw a good business. Does it make sense? Did you have a vision of it or that's just what you felt?

[A]

I just felt that. Ozzy, do you want to know the biggest mistake I ever made with Ozzy?

[B]

You're gonna admit to a mistake?

[A]

Yep. I have several. Billy. Hugh. We could be here all night.

[B]

I gotta get ready for this one.

[A]

He got offered to go and read for Pirates of the Caribbean. And I've never said this to anyone.

[B]

And you said no?

[A]

I said no. Now, wouldn't he have been perfect?

[B]

He would have been perfect. I know maybe it's not too late, but God bless. But that's funny. God is. It's interesting to think of him in

[A]

that thing because when Johnny put. Wanted Keith to be a pirate. Do you remember?

[B]

Yeah, of course. Yeah. I love that the glib version of the question is, how do you. How do you balance someone who has addiction issues with, you know, making those important professional choices? But I know in your world it's more. It's so much more personal than that. You know what I'm saying? So. And you're a person who's. To best of my knowledge, I mean, you're basically always been sober.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I don't think I've ever seen you drunk or high or. You know what I mean? This is the person that I.

[A]

Drugs were never sure, ever my thing.

[B]

But so stepping outside the rock and roll conversation that we're having, anybody who struggled with a partner who's struggling, that's a tough thing. And then when you amplify it into the public sphere, that makes it even more complicated. So what was your. Did you have a plan? Did you think, I just have to manage this? Like, what was your. As you're going along, how are you figuring this out?

[A]

After I had my kids, because we had them very early and there was only a year in between each one. They called that Irish twins. But your whole life changes, you know that? Your whole life changes.

[B]

It's all about your kids, everything.

[A]

And Ozzy left two children with his first wife. And I saw what the children would, you know, the disruption, what it does to kids. And I thought, I don't. I can't have this happen again. And another three kids. How can you do that? And so every time it would get bad and I'd go, oh, Jesus, I should just, you know, go, yeah, but you think, no, I've made a commitment. I love Him. And I cannot have my kids come from a broken home. I cannot, I just can't do it. I've seen the damage. I know the damage. I've lived it. I don't want it for my kids. And I just adored him so much that whatever he would throw at me, I'd throw back at him. You know, we had a very, very volatile relationship because Ozzy came from that generation.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

You know, you can hit a woman, it's fine, you know. And I'd seen so much violence growing up with my dad. Not that he was violent to me, but.

[B]

You saw it. Yeah, yeah.

[A]

And it was just like, well, that's what people do, don't they?

[B]

It's the same in my world.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You, you tell somebody, oh, I'm getting my ass kicked. And they say, well, you think it's any different next door? It's just the world we grew up in. So now, of course, people have different conceptions of it. So for you, was it a. Because I, I, I meant to ask you this question. It's like, because you've always had a hard, charging, aggressive managerial style. And, you know, you, you certainly believed in what you believed in. You know, you were never shy about saying what you felt. And you certainly defended your husband in a million different ways. And in almost every case, you were right. He turned out to be the legend that you believed him to be. It's easy to say that now, but, you know, whether it was stupidity about biting the head off a bat, all that stuff that we would see in Cream magazine, you know, now people think it's funny, but at the time the music business was way more conservative.

[A]

And how conservative. They would take his albums out of every Tower records. They would, you know, ban him on certain radio stations. And it was like, he's not a killer yet. I mean, like, yeah, it was just, I mean, serious. I can remember CBS calling me and saying, if Ozzy ever comes to our premises or after he bit the dove off in the meet and greet that we had, he's, we will stop releasing his records and we will not let him be sold to another label. We will just destroy him.

[B]

Yeah. And they did. And back then they had that power. That was a real, that's a real threat.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It's not like now where he can run to social media and get the fans to rally behind. Back then, if they wanted to. Digital analog assassination. If they wanted to, they could. And they could get all the stations to stop playing your records. Remember that. There's, I don't Know if you know that story where there was all the payola going on in the late 70s and Pink Floyd got sick of it. So they basically said, we won't be part of the payola process. And CBS tried to work the record without the payola. And every radio station in America basically said, okay, we won't play Pink Floyd anymore.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

And that's when Pink Floyd learned that the power that they thought they had, they didn't have, they didn't have.

[A]

And it was all like, you know, oh, you need a new car. Oh, you want to go to the big game or the World Series, whatever it was, all of those radio people would be there. You know, that's how the perks of the job, they weren't going to stop that.

[B]

So the question that I was after was, and this is why I kind of connected it to the world that you and Ozzie grew up in, this kind of post war world. It's like. Because sometimes people ask me, like, what is success? Is success winning or is success survival?

[A]

Survival.

[B]

That's what I thought you'd say, but I wanted to hear it from you.

[A]

It's absolutely survival.

[B]

Just keep.

[A]

And the whole thing I always used to say to Ozzy was, we just want to stay here. You never want to go here because there's only one way and that's down. We just want to stay here. Consistent. Consistent.

[B]

I think as an outside observer, and obviously we know each other a bit, but I think Ozzfest is probably your greatest coup. Did you have a logic behind that at the time?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So tell me your logic. I wanna see if it matches what I think.

[A]

Okay, well, everybody was playing Lollapalooza. Everybody. And, you know, they had all those alternative stages. They had the Singing Monks, they had Tom Jones, yada, yada. And I'm like, yeah. And I'm like, well, what about Ozzy? And the agent for Lollapalooza said ozzy's not relevant. And that me off because I thought, how disrespectful.

[B]

How about half the bands playing owe a debt to Ozzie?

[A]

It's like, how disrespectful to say that

[B]

about any artist, but especially someone that was very influential to the alternative music world. I mean. I mean, everybody but Peter Hook from New Order, Kurt Cobain, me. We were all in debt to Sabbath on some level. Sabbath is one of the weirdest bands in the world in that they really get love from the alternative community in a way that almost no metal band ever has.

[A]

No, and never Will, it's probably. I can remember Ozzy was at a studio, and Kurt was in the studio, and he. In another room, the studios. And he came in and he'd written Ozzy on his knuckles.

[B]

Okay. That's all you need to know, right?

[A]

Yeah. And it was like. Ozzy was like, oh, my God, that guy in that sweater.

[B]

You know the one, that little kid.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I want to talk about your life in television, because ultimately this interview's about you, and you've had a very interesting life. But I don't know how to frame the question. So maybe you can frame it better than I can, but there's been a lot of fighting. There's been a lot of skirmishes. Does that come from a sense of, again, the need to survive? I need to defend what I'm after? Does it come from a sense of justice or, you know, like. The one thing I do know is. You don't like bull.

[A]

No, I don't like to pretend. And the thing is, for me, going into tv, I looked at it as a manager. I'm not an artist, I'm a manager.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I don't have an artistic bone in my body, but I just look at it as if.

[B]

Sure, but did you ever have aspirations? It sounds glib to put it, like, making it about you, because.

[A]

No, never. And it came as a complete surprise when I was asked to do things when we finished the Osbourne. And I'm like, okay, what's the deal? If the deal is good, I'll take it.

[B]

Did someone approach you to do the show, or was it an idea that you had?

[A]

The Osbournes. No, it was the kids and Ozzy. I wasn't in. It did Cribs.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

And it was the most requested Cribs. So they came to us and said, well, we want to do something. What can we do?

[B]

So then you bring in people, and people start riffing. Did you. Were you hesitant to let people inside your world as much as you ended up? I mean, it became very personal.

[A]

Yeah. No, I was like, no, it was.

[B]

Did you see how it would help the business?

[A]

No, because initially it was only meant to be three weeks, and it ended up three years.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And that's how we got to own the Osbournes, because the guys came, the film crew came, and a year later, they were still filming and it hadn't been released.

[B]

Oh, wow.

[A]

And then they said, we've got to do a deal here. I'm like, okay.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, now looking back, I mean, it's such a groundbreaking series. You know what I mean? Do you see it that way?

[A]

Funnily enough, we'd looked back on it as a family together. We were looking at it all as a family, the four of us. And it actually disturbed me.

[B]

Really.

[A]

Yeah. It did tell me what to do. It disturbed me for my kids. You know, Amy didn't want to do it.

[B]

I remember talking to her at that time.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I asked her point blank, why do you do it? She says, I don't want anything to do with this mess.

[A]

Yeah. And I. I looked at my kids and what they were subjected to because I allowed them to and their behavior. And I was shocked.

[B]

Yeah. Okay.

[A]

But you're in it so deep. And when it came out and it was like everybody thought it was amazing. I'm like, do they? Okay.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I can remember my best friend, who is an agent, said to me, you can't let this go out. This is disgraceful. You cannot. You've got to stop it. And I'm like, oops, too late.

[B]

Too late. It did. Am I right or wrong? And this might be an improper assumption, it did seem to revive Ozzy's musical life in a way. Was it because he. Am I wrong about that?

[A]

No, you're right. Because there were people that had kind of heard of Ozzy's name, but had never seen him.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

And so they saw him and they either fell in love with him or hated him, but more fell in love with him. And then they would go out and buy his old record. So it helped everything. Because fans that we never thought he would ever reached.

[B]

It's interesting that it was more of an organic process inside your world, because looking, it seems like a genius coup. You know, they call it like first mover advantage that you'd figured something out. No, but Ozzfest, you know, that I

[A]

think was that it's because they were so disrespectful about Ozzy. I was like, I'm gonna show you, you bastards. How dare you say that about an artist? And I went insane, came up with the idea, well, we'll do our own festival. We'll do a heavy metal festival. It's never been done. Let's do it.

[B]

It def.

[A]

And it worked. And it was like 20 odd years of fantastic summers. Fantastic bands.

[B]

Look at the relationships that were made because of that festival.

[A]

Exactly. Amazing. And what it did was it then opened the doors for other promoters in other countries to do the same thing. So for the genre of music, it was passing the torch. And I look at the bands that are now doing Their own festivals. And I'm like, it's great.

[B]

Ye.

[A]

Yeah, it's fantastic.

[B]

Yeah. At what point do you make peace with your father again?

[A]

Okay. There were years that it was just horrific for me. I mean, we'd be asked to leave restaurants, certain restaurants at my father. Really? Oh, yeah. I mean, like, everybody in the beginning thought that ozzy and I would fail. Everybody, the whole industry, thought that we would fail.

[B]

Well, they don't know you very well.

[A]

And we had a really, really hard time. I remember one time I came back from a meeting, and the nanny was in the hotel room. This is before we had a house here. And my father had been on the phone and spoken to the nanny and said, tell my daughter to get out of town and get those kids and leave this town.

[B]

Wow. Yeah. Okay. So how do you make peace with that?

[A]

My father was diagnosed with Alzheimer's, and he'd lost all his money. He ended up. And he had air supply. That was the only thing he was managing. And then that dwindled. And we've always, always. Our entire family has always been huge spenders. My father would be, you got it. You spend it. I'll make more. And he kind of passed that on to me, unfortunately. But he had nothing. And he had Alzheimer's, and my mother had died, and there he was.

[B]

Did you pick up the phone, or. He picked up the phone.

[A]

No, Ozzie, I wouldn't pick up the phone.

[B]

So Ozzy picked up the phone.

[A]

Ozzy said, you have to go to your father.

[B]

So how do you feel when he tells you that?

[A]

I'm like, I just paid a tax bill of my father's. Cause not only did I work for my father, but all his companies, everything, everything was in my name. Everything.

[B]

Did you know that at the time?

[A]

Yeah. And I trusted him. I didn't know, you know, we're flying to Singapore. We're getting, you know, 50 mil from this bank in Singapore. Sign for it, Sharon. Sign for it. You know. Oh, okay, I'll sign for it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Bull, Bull. You know.

[B]

Wow. And did you go see him or call him?

[A]

I called him, and it was early Alzheimer's, So, you know, and then he had a bad heart. And then I said, okay, I'm coming to England. I'm going to get you fixed up, and I'm going to bring you back to America. And that's what I did. I brought him back. I put him in an apartment with nurses. And then after a while, he needed to go into a home because it was full on Alzheimer's. And it sucked big time. It's wicked. Wicked thing to ever have.

[B]

I went through it with somebody in my life and watched it up close, and it was very hard. It's very hard.

[A]

It's heartbreaking. And I used to have a sound system in his room for him so he could listen to all his favorite music and he would sing along. But you ask him how he's doing, nothing. And that's the healing of music.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

He would sing along, not mess up one lyric.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. Was that hard for you to make peace, or did you say, I'm just gonna do what I need to do and then kind of sort it out later? Does that make sense?

[A]

Yeah. And then when my father died, I went and sat with him for a while, said everything I wanted to say.

[B]

Yeah, I hear you. My father passed away a couple years ago, and I'm still in that space. Right. Just. I haven't quite worked it out yet, but I get it.

[A]

Did you have a good relationship with your dad?

[B]

It was back and forth. It was back and forth. He had such terrible drug issues that, you know, like a lot of people with those issues. It's like one day it was the greatest and awesome and awesome. Best daddy in the world because he loved music. And we talk about Jimi Hendrix and the time he did this. And then the next day he'd be like, you know, give me 15 grand. And I'd be like, why? Because I need it.

[A]

Sounds like my dad. But my dad didn't do drugs or

[B]

drink the drugs is the complicated thing because you're always in that space of like. I did say one thing to him once to him, when I said. Because I was always very judgmental of him doing drugs. And I said to him, I think I understand now, Daddy. And he said, what do you understand? And I said, I think if you hadn't done drugs, you would have killed yourself. And he said, that's true. So at least I found some peace. There was like. Even though I don't like it and I don't like what it did to our world, I also can appreciate that that was your way of staying here. And I do think that was true,

[A]

because I truly believe that the drink and the drug makes addicts feel the way they always want to feel, and they're trying to fill that big hole that they all have inside of them.

[B]

Yeah, Well, I mean, think of all the people, your husband included, that you've watched throw away opportunities and moments in life because they're just not able to hold it together. It's a tough thing for everybody involved. So because of the Osbournes, they start calling you for television. Were you surprised by that?

[A]

Totally. Like, oh, okay. And then I get a call from a company that wanted to do a chat show and then, sure, yeah. And this thing is with me. I was on a. Because I'd been in the industry my entire life. I get it, I get it. And it's like, people who make TV think that they're saving lives. It's tv. It's a TV show. That's all we're making. It's not that important in the big picture of life. But people who work in TV are like, oh, you know, this, that, and the other. And I. A lot of the time I would be off because I wasn't getting paid. What my mail, ah, counterpart was getting paid.

[B]

I had a feeling that didn't sit well with you?

[A]

No. And me off big time. And a lot of things that they were doing I didn't agree with. But I played the game. And then in the end, I was getting greedy. And then it's like, am I doing sure. You know, again, we're not saving lives here. It's just tv. And it's. And everything I've always said to artists is, if you don't want it, someone else will do. Replaceable.

[B]

Replaceable for sure.

[A]

And there's always talent coming up. That's one thing you can never stop. Wars can't stop it. There's always that wonderful creative spirit in people that will always go on. And I was just like, I don't need this. I don't. What am I doing? What am I doing? I'm prostituting myself out for a paycheck.

[B]

Was the attraction that it was good for business?

[A]

No, it was, okay, I've done it. You get on my nerves. I don't really like it. So I'd leave, or then I would have an argument with America's Got Talent here. I fell out with horribly, NBC. The people who I fell out with have since been let go under bad circumstances. And I'm very happy about that. And it was awful. The situation with NBC was horrible. They had offered my son a reality show which was SAS forces with celebrities. Who's gonna win this sort of thing?

[B]

Okay, sure.

[A]

And my son had always loved extreme sports and things like that, shooting and all of that. And he was really up for it. And he got diagnosed with Ms.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And we had to tell them. And then they went, oh, no, you're a liability. We can't have you. And they just Chopped him off at the knee. And I said, well, why doesn't he host it?

[B]

Sure.

[A]

He knows all the language, everything that you're doing. Let him host it, know he's a liability. And then I just said, you. I'm leaving the show. And I left under such bad circumstances, I. I couldn't believe the way they were behaving. And I don't care because I'm not looking for my next gig.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

So I can turn around and say to them, go yourselves. Take your little tv, shove it up your ass and leave. And they're not used to people talking to them like that.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

They get like, she's insane. She's this. Well, I am insane. But it's like, I don't want to

[B]

rehash the stuff that happened with the talk show. The talk. But I didn't. I certainly didn't like the way you were treated. That seemed strange to me.

[A]

It was very, very strange. And I was sticking up for my friend who I've known for years.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I know for a fact Piers Morgan is not a racist.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Absolutely not a racist. He's. And I didn't like what they kept saying he was. And I was standing up for him, saying, no way. And why does. Even if he was a racist, which he's not. And a friend of mine. Why does that make me a racist? Cause I'm his friend.

[B]

Well, we've lived through this very strange time, which hopefully is ending of this kind of.

[A]

I hope so.

[B]

Guilt by association and innuendo and clickbait. And I really hope that we can kind of come out some other side, because it's very damaging to the west, where we really are the place of freedom. And we're setting a very terrible example if we're trying to take away, like, let's call it the. The ability to even just disagree. You know, I always love that saying, let's agree to disagree. It works perfect in a band. You're having the band argument and you say, you know what? Let's just agree to disagree.

[A]

Exactly. And the thing is, because, you know, everybody wants to know, who are you voting for? Well, actually, it's none of your business, right or wrong. And they either like you or don't like you, depending on who you're voting for. And it's like, it's none of your business.

[B]

Yeah. Well, hopefully we're coming.

[A]

I hope.

[B]

I think. Please, Jesus. It's sort of a general question, and you can take it any way you want. You've had health struggles, and thank God you got through that. And I saw something where they said, you've been open about your depression, but I don't know what that means. Is that something I just read or is that true?

[A]

No, it's true. I've had it for years.

[B]

And you think it's chemical or is it sort of unresolved stuff?

[A]

I think back now and things that I've learned and read, and I honestly think it was. I was born with it. I've always had that, you know, put on a jolly face, showbiz face. And then, you know, when everybody's gone, you're like this. And I've always, always had it. And then something else. I didn't realize that I had ADHD until last year.

[B]

That's pretty late in the game to figure that one out.

[A]

I just thought that I had one of those heads that didn't stop. Didn't stop. And it's like, you know, I've got the TV going in my head, the radio and an album. It's like all going on at one time. I've got all of these different things going on. And it's. That was really enlightening because I just thought, why doesn't anybody else have this? And I can't explain it.

[B]

Would it voice itself in insomnia or nervousness or anxiety and never sleep.

[A]

Always been just a couple of hours, really. Oh, yeah, I'm up all night, you know, and the head starts, the voices, all this.

[B]

So. Because I think most people look at lives like ours and they say, you know, it's hard for them to relate because in their. In the American estimation, and you've been in America for so long, is if you. If you have success, that's the cure all. And of course we know that does. It doesn't work like that. In many ways, it. I'm not saying it makes it worse. It makes it more difficult because you're navigating public, private, different struggles. So.

[A]

And too, in this business, you don't want to show people your insecurities.

[B]

Oh, no, that's the worst.

[A]

The worst

[B]

it's is. And maybe that goes back to my question about the public squabbling is. And it's. I'm not trying to get anything specific because it's not important to me, but is that maybe part of what made you feel like you had to be feisty? Do you know what I mean? It's like, you know, sometimes it's easier to defend the front gate than when somebody gets to the door. You know, it's.

[A]

I think, a Lot of it had to do with my time that I was born. And also what I did for a profession. There wasn't many women doing it.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

If you were a woman, you were what they called a secretary. And you go and you, you know, you do your letters and you do my appointments. And that's what women do. And you look nice and you take care.

[B]

When he started managing Ozzy in 1970, whatever. I mean, how many women managers were there in the world?

[A]

I think one. Billy Joel's wife. But it's.

[B]

It is very much a boys club.

[A]

Unbelievable. And you know, the record industry in those days was coke. Go to a strip club, get some hookers. Oh, we go to a game, and then we go to the strip club

[B]

or golf or everything.

[A]

So you never accepted. And it was either she's here, cause of her father, he's powerful, or her husband. And it was like, no, you. And it was.

[B]

No one says you better than you. It just has a ring to it.

[A]

But it was just something that I had to survive. And this is all I know.

[B]

Right.

[A]

I didn't know anything else. This is how I live.

[B]

So have you survived?

[A]

Yeah, I've done extremely well. Learned a lot. Horrible mistakes. But nobody's perfect. Nobody's perfect.

[B]

So what hills are left to climb for you? I mean, you have done it all.

[A]

To be a good grandmother.

[B]

I like that.

[A]

Yeah, a good grandmother. Be wise for my grandkids. Teach them wise things. And take care of my hubby.

[B]

Yeah. I saw the speech he gave at the Rock and Roll hall of Fame. I guess what I'm after is it seemed that him getting in on his own was really important. Not because he didn't deserve it. Of course he deserves it. He should have been in long ago, but it seemed to strike a particular nerve in him. Is that accurate?

[A]

Yes. Because he still thinks a part of him still thinks that he's less than.

[B]

It's amazing.

[A]

Yeah, it was.

[B]

Well, maybe that's part of his charm, you know, because he really is that guy, you know, I mean, I've met him many times and he really is that guy.

[A]

Yeah, he is.

[B]

He doesn't have a bad bone in his body. It is kind of remarkable.

[A]

He doesn't. And he has no jealousy. He's happy for everyone. That does good. And you know, he is a very delicate soul. And it sounds crazy saying that about Ozzy, but he's a very delicate soul. But all people, I honestly feel that, again, it comes with being a creative force. Really. All artists are delicate.

[B]

Yeah. Last thing I want to ask you, because your lives are so intertwined. You know, he. When did he retire? Like, you remember, there was the retirement tour. That was long ago, right?

[A]

Oh, that was in 92.

[B]

Okay. That's what I'm saying.

[A]

That was because at that time, he was having problem with one of his legs. And we took him to a doctor, and he was wrongly diagnosed with Ms. They said he had ms, but he didn't. He had Parkinson's. The guy just gave us the wrong diagnosis. So I thought he had Ms. So I said, okay, we're retiring. We're going back to England. We're taking care of Daddy. So when I got to England and I went to some professors, they said he doesn't have ms, which, of course he didn't, but they didn't pick up it was Parkinson's because they're very similar.

[B]

So I guess what I'm after is. It seems like. And I. You know, it doesn't matter the year. It's just the idea. It seemed at some point he clicked into a phase, and I think even saw quotes along the way. This is not recent, but in my mind, that. That he needed music to keep going. And I'm not saying to live, but it seemed like music kept his spirit up or his.

[A]

He says his own words are. It's the only thing I've ever been good at. And he doesn't want to give it up.

[B]

Well, good for him.

[A]

Yeah, he. He gets such joy from it. He. He loves it. Just loves it. Loves. You know, some people can just kind of cut that side of their life off and then go and retire.

[B]

And I've seen it. Yeah.

[A]

Yeah, me too. He can't. He can't do it. He loves it so much. And that's what's so tough, because, you know, he wants to be with the guys touring and.

[B]

Yeah. Okay, so last question. Could you have imagined, like, I mean, them on the floor in 1971 at your dad's office, or you when you guys fell in love like that? You guys went on this crazy journey? I mean, it's a really unique and in a way, very American. Maybe I'm being biased. America has a way of creating this strange opportunity where people step forward, and you and your husband have stepped forward so many times, and even just preparing for the questions, it's like, and then Sharon did this, and then Ozzie did this, and then there's. I mean, we could talk for 18 hours about this tour or that thing or this feud or. I mean, you've had a very Full life. Do you feel that?

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. I'm tired.

[B]

You?

[A]

Yeah, I'm tired.

[B]

Just want to be a grandma.

[A]

Now, listen, I got five of them. Five grandkids, and hopefully more, because Kelly's looking forward to having more babies. But I'm tired. Really, it's okay. How about this? I'm not happy at the way the industry's running.

[B]

Okay? I love this part.

[A]

And I can't keep screaming. I can't keep screaming and trying to make things change, or it's still. You know, the one thing that gets me is. And I try and explain this to all young musicians, if you see a house that you want, you go to the bank, you ask for a mortgage, they will give you the mortgage, you pay off that mortgage, and then the house is yours.

[B]

Not in the music business.

[A]

Not in the music industry. You pay for your marketing, for everything. And they own that album, and I cannot. And it's the same with everything, film, everything. It's like, what are we doing here? And then, you know, now it's. They're insisting on the publishing and merchandising, and it's got to a point where there's so much money in it that they forget that it's human beings that they're dealing with. We're not cars. We're not cans of soup. It's human beings. And it just gets me like this.

[B]

Yeah, I'll tell you a little story. And it's a good way for us to end. I was in a meeting, a big meeting, and they were showing all this data about my band, and they were doing that very kind of subtle way, like, if you could only point this direction, you know, it would be in your best interest to point this direction. And then I asked a question about something to do with radio or something, and they said, well, this station is still mad at you about something you said in 92. This station is mad that you didn't play their. Their summer festival fish fry in 97. And they just kept going on. And I'm not. I'm not a person who's quick to lose his temper. I'm actually. When I get mad, I get really mad. I don't think you've even ever seen

[A]

me really mad, but I haven't.

[B]

I have a horrible temper when I do lose my temper. And out of nowhere, it was like, you know, something snapped, and I slammed my fist on the table, and everybody kind of did one of these, like, what the. And I said, quoting Popeye, I am what I am. The thing that makes me Great is the thing that makes me terrible. The thing that you think makes me markable is the thing that makes somebody want to puke in a bucket and never hear my voice again. I can't separate who I am. I am the way I am. And even in our squabbles in the years, it's like you are you and I am me.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

And that's it. And there's nothing wrong with that. That's kind of the way it's supposed to be. They're trying to saw the edges off of the true weirdos and the true one of a kinders, you know, they would love to turn into a cookie dough business, of course.

[A]

But look at it now, with all the Korean bands that come out and all this.

[B]

K Pope, have you ever heard how they do that music?

[A]

Oh, please. I just.

[B]

Let me just tell you one quick thing. Cause I had a friend, he went over there for a while, lived over there in a while, end up hanging out with those people. So they have these rooms and literally in one room they'll just write choruses. They don't try to write a song, they just write choruses. And in another room they have. The kids are really good at writing bridges. And in another room they have kids are really good at writing verses. That's how they do it. So they literally just write verses all day. Because that's what they're good at, these kids. And then when, when it's all said and done, they have a pile of bunch of stuff, they'll go, I'll take that chorus, that bridge and that verse. And that's how they make those songs. It's just a factory.

[A]

Oh, it's a complete factory. And you know, they'll chop these kids up to make them look kind of like more western. And then, you know, they'll use them as soon as they get old, out a younger one comes in and it's just soul destroying. Totally soul destroying.

[B]

Well, we're not going to be able to fix it.

[A]

No, we can't.

[B]

You know, last thing I would say is like you saw in your youth and obviously your daddy saw this amazing moment of rock and roll being born in the greatest music engine of all time, which was the UK in that period. And then your husband, you know, and of course many other pioneers invented a genre of music that nobody knew existed. Everybody held their nose and said to hell with it. And here we all still are talking about Black Sabbath 60 years later and all this stuff. So there is some justice. But I think at the end of the day they still win. I don't know why. I'm just cynical about it. Do you feel that way?

[A]

I am. I am. Listen, one of the guys that runs the biggest record company in the world turns around and goes, we have to f the artists before they usually. And that's your philosophy of running?

[B]

Did you say that out loud or you just heard that behind the scenes?

[A]

Out loud.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

And it's like, what? No.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Why? Why can't it be win, win?

[B]

Well, I think that gets to the reason why they're in the business. We're in the business because we love it. We love the. We love the concert. The lights going down. They're not in the business for the moment. The lights go down.

[A]

No. No, they're not.

[B]

There's always that guy. I remember it was like. I called it. I'm the guy. I'm the guy who signed Nirvana. I'm the guy who found Guns N Roses. I'm the guy. Usually a guy, so. But we're us. God bless. Thank you for coming.

[A]

It's so good to see you.

[B]

You too.