Simon Kirke | The Magnificent Others with Billy Corgan

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Magnificent Others with Billy Corgan

Episode: Simon Kirke | The Magnificent Others with Billy Corgan
Date: November 19, 2025
Host: Billy Corgan
Guest: Simon Kirke (Drummer for Free & Bad Company)

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Overview

In this rich, candid, and musically enlightening episode, Billy Corgan sits down with Simon Kirke, legendary drummer of Free and Bad Company, to chart the journey from humble beginnings in rural England to the heights of rock stardom and the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame. The conversation explores formative experiences, musical influences, the ins and outs of iconic bands, substance abuse and recovery, and the lasting magic and legacy of classic rock music. The episode is informal, full of humor, and loaded with honest reflections on fame, artistry, and the ups and downs of a life in music.

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Major Themes

• The roots and evolution of a master drummer
• The magic of rhythm and the distinction between flash and feel
• Musical influences: from Stax to Motown and blues to rock
• Stories behind Free and Bad Company: formation, success, and challenges
• The impact of addiction on bands and relationships
• The endurance and evolution of classic rock legacy
• Reflections on personality, creativity, band chemistry, and musical technology

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

Childhood, Early Influences, and the Spark of Drumming

[00:00–04:30]

• Simon shares his first exposure to music through a black-and-white TV and a big band program (“All That Jazz”), which inspired his desire to become a drummer.
• Tribute to his high school bus driver, Mr. Lane, who invited him to play drums at local dances, forming the basis for Kirke’s “good sense of time.”
  Simon Kirke: "And I did that for about two and a half years...That's where I got what I consider to be a pretty good sense of time." (02:35)
• Billy distinguishes drummers with a love of "rhythm" over "drums," highlighting the magical feel of “pocket drummers”.

The Roots of Rhythm: Stax, Motown, and Influences

[04:30–08:30]

• Simon’s “holy trinity” of drummers: Al Jackson Jr., Ringo Starr, and Charlie Watts.
  Kirke: "Those three guys laid down a rhythmic foundation." (05:01)
• Discussion of the difference between Stax (muscular, few artists) and Motown (glamorous, bigger roster, pop), with Stax being a deeper influence on Kirke’s playing.

Family, Upbringing, and Musical Foundations

[09:30–12:30]

• Simon’s family background: Mother, an unrecognized pianist, and record collector; father, a bus driver and closet poet.
• Story of transitioning from rural poverty to electricity—and the arrival of the TV that would spark his passion for music.
• Simon’s DIY drumming education through books as drums and listening to American R&B on Radio Luxembourg.

Journey to London and the Birth of Free

[14:00–19:45]

• Simon’s struggle to break into music in London, supported by his mother’s faith in music. Kirke: "The two saddest words in music are 'if only'." (15:01)
• Decision driven by a coin toss to see Black Cat Bones—meets guitarist Paul Kossoff.
• Auditioning and joining that band, which leads to the formation of Free with Paul Rodgers.

Guitar Heroes and Stories from the Road

[19:46–26:00]

• Billy praises Kossoff’s unique blues playing; Simon reflects on only realizing Kossoff's genius in hindsight.
• Memorable moment: Eric Clapton approaches Kossoff backstage, asking, “How do you do that vibrato?” (22:26)
• Recording stories: Splicing solos for “All Right Now,” with producer Roy Thomas Baker’s anecdote about a less-than-perfect punch-in on the solo (24:53).

The Rise of Free and "All Right Now"

[26:00–31:00]

• Touring the “Transit circuit” and cultivating a club fanbase.
• The creation of “All Right Now” out of necessity for a danceable hit after a flop gig. Kirke: "Another lightning bolt hit Andy Fraser in that dressing room: 'All right now, baby,'...That's good." (27:10)
• The unexpected pressure of a massive hit and the challenge of following up.

Free’s Musical Identity and Internal Struggles

[31:01–34:36]

• "All Right Now" as a pop hit that didn't define Free; the band identified as "progressive blues rock".
• The problems of addiction (notably Paul Kossoff's), the band’s breakups and reformations, and industry indifference to addiction at the time.
• Simon’s own later recovery and reflection on the stigma around addiction in the '70s.

From Free to Bad Company: Band Chemistry and Commercial Success

[40:00–47:13]

• The forging of Bad Company out of Free's ashes, with Paul Rodgers and Mick Ralphs at the core.
• Billy probes if Bad Company was designed to be “more commercial”—Simon denies, saying they just wanted to play what they liked, but FM radio and Zeppelin’s rise helped make them stars.
• Chemistry prized above genius: “I don’t like playing with geniuses. I like playing with people that I like, that I get on with.” (BB King quote, 46:00)

The Realities and Toll of Rock Stardom

[50:13–53:48]

• Life inside a top band: "Record, Tour. Record, Tour..."
  Corgan: "It’s a fun blur, but it’s a blur." (50:15)
• The relentless cycle leads to burnout, and the eventual splintering of the band, especially under the weight of addiction in the industry and the chaos after John Bonham’s death.

The Second Incarnation of Bad Company & the Evolution of the Band

[54:03–56:28]

• Reflecting on the decision to continue Bad Company with a new singer, Brian Howe, and the shift toward a more commercial sound.
• Acknowledgment that this move “tarnished” the band's reputation somewhat and wasn’t personally fulfilling.
• Simon’s thoughts on the legacy and how, “If you were to take the second incarnation of Bad Company and put it out with people never having known the first, I don’t think it would have sold a tenth of what it did.” (58:18)

Band Legacy, The Power of Tunes, and Today’s Music Culture

[59:08–73:06]

• Discussion of modern band line-ups and the persistence of classic songs over classic lineups.
• Simon’s surprise and openness regarding younger fans discovering classic rock through tribute albums and younger artists. Kirke: "Now it's really about the songs. If you have the songs, people want to see that brand play those songs." (59:08)
• Both reflect on the “magic” of music that survives technology and shifting tastes. Corgan: "It’s honestly, it’s faith in the magic of music, right?" (74:11)
• Simon expresses gratitude for being part of the era “with fire in our bellies…we had it good.” (73:49)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Simon Kirke, on drummers: "The great pocket drummers, they don't necessarily have a love of the drums. They have a love of rhythm." (04:00)
• Billy Corgan, on Free’s identity: "It’s a band that just said, hey, we want to do what we want to do, play, do it our way. And it holds up." (30:29)
• Kirke on All Right Now: "We came off stage to the sound of our own footsteps…We need a song that people can dance to. As simple as that." (26:07–27:10)
• On band addiction and the era: "Addiction was something you swept under the rug…you were a pariah." (32:36)
• Kirke on Bad Company’s rise: “What you're hearing on the first three albums is the four guys who are having fun. And if it was a hit, it was a hit.” (43:40)
• Billy Corgan, on the band dynamic: "It's almost like a siege mentality. I'm going to keep fighting or something." (55:31)
• Kirke on legacy: “He left his mark, which is all we can ask of ourselves.” (70:34)
• Corgan on musical magic: "Any musician could go now and play that riff, play it more in tune and more in time. Why are people still listening to a 60 year old recording? Because that musician that day played it the way that touches people." (74:20)
• Greatest drummer Kirke saw live: "Buddy Rich…what a player. And Bonzo…he floored me with what he did." (76:30)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• Kirke’s Origin Story & Early Influences: [00:00–04:30]
• Drummer Influences & Rhythm vs. Flash: [04:30–05:50]
• Stax, Motown, & the Secret Language of Groove: [05:50–08:30]
• Parents, Childhood, and TV Epiphany: [09:30–13:56]
• London Bound: Coin Toss and the Creation of Free: [14:00–19:45]
• Eric Clapton & Paul Kossoff Story: [22:26–23:06]
• The Making and Impact of "All Right Now": [26:06–28:22]
• Addiction in Bands & Recovery Culture: [31:54–34:36]
• Bad Company’s Origin & Chemistry: [40:00–47:13]
• Recording Practices & Muscular Sound: [48:20–49:36]
• The Toll of Success: Record/Tour Grind: [50:13–53:48]
• Second Era Bad Company: Howe Years: [54:03–58:08]
• Legacy and Relevance of Classic Songs: [59:08–62:41]
• Passing of Mick Ralphs & Tribute: [69:45–70:34]
• Philosophy on Music’s Magic & Survival: [73:55–74:46]
• Drummer Heroes: Buddy Rich & John Bonham: [76:27–78:21]

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Conclusion

This episode is a masterclass in music history, rhythm, and rock storytelling—a conversation that vibrates with humility, humor, gratitude, and wisdom. Anyone curious about what turns talent into legacy, about the real lives behind the hits, or about the changing currents of rock and roll will find this an essential listen.

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End of Summary

Transcript

[Simon Kirke]

So we got a tv, a black and white tv. And the very first thing that I saw when the thing you turn it on and that little white dot opened up was this thing called a program called all that Jazz. And it featured big bands all in black and white. So I'm riveted by this. And the drummer and the lights were shining off the cymbals. And then he did. He said, well, it's funny you should say that because he's getting a sack tonight. It's his last night, and we are auditioning tomorrow at this same place. So I tossed a coin and I did. I swear to God. We came off stage to the sound of our own footsteps.

[Billy Corgan]

Lot of space in that van.

[Simon Kirke]

A lot of space. A lot of hatch. We smoke a lot of hats.

[Billy Corgan]

Congratulations. Rock and Roll hall of Fame.

[Simon Kirke]

Thank you.

[Billy Corgan]

Well deserved.

[Simon Kirke]

Thank you.

[Billy Corgan]

Mr. Simon Kirk, Billy Corgan. Thank you. Thank you for being here. What's the best drummer joke you ever heard?

[Simon Kirke]

Oh, it's kind of long, but, you know, it's worth it.

[Billy Corgan]

We have time.

[Simon Kirke]

It's worth it. So there's a drummer sitting in the rehearsal room waiting for the others in the band. And it goes on and no one's arrived. He's sort of playing, practicing, and after about 35 minutes, it says it and he throws down his sticks. He said, I'm fed up with being a drummer waiting for the others. So he rushes down to the mall and goes into the music store and he goes up to the counter. He says, I want to be a guitarist like that bloke from Foo Fighters. I want a custom gold Les Paul gold top. I want diamond encrusted picks and the best leather strap and the best strings. And the guy at the counter says, you're a drummer, aren't you? He says, why? Is it because I'm doing this on the counter? He says, no, no, this is. The music store is next door. This is a Dunkin Donuts. Ta da.

[Billy Corgan]

We'll overdub the symbol craft. All right. In your illustrious musical life. I need to start here. Tell me about Mr. Lane.

[Simon Kirke]

Oh, my Lord.

[Billy Corgan]

Mr. Lane.

[Simon Kirke]

Wow. What a great question. Mr. Lane was a bus driver in my. My high school when I was brought up on the border of Wales. And our school was about six miles from where I lived in the country. And this bus driver, after about a year, I was about 14. And as I was getting off the bus, he said, oh, I want a word with you. I thought, oh, what have I done? Caught me smoking in the back or whatever. He says, I hear you play drums. I said, well, I do. Yeah. And he said, well, I have. This was before disco, but he had a stack of 45s, a couple of turntables, and he used to go around all the village halls playing, you know, the songs of the day. And he said, I think it would be a good idea if you brought your little drum kit and played alongside. Amazing, you know. And I was like, whoa, whoa. I'll have to ask my parents. And they agreed, as long as it didn't affect my homework. And I did that for about two and a half years. Billy wow. And that's where I've got what I consider to be a pretty good sense of time. Because in one minute you'd be playing Can't Buy Me Love by the Beatles and Baby Love by the Supremes. And then Waltz. Yeah, with Jim Reese. He'll have to go. And then a Felita, which is, you know, some kind of weird tuber pumping Oompa, Oompa. So I did that for two hours a night for nearly two years.

[Billy Corgan]

It seems. I mean, maybe it's a stretch, but you tell me. But it seems like it's so in the foundational root of your playing, you know, because the great. And I mean, this is the ultimate compliment. The great pocket drummers, they have such a love of rhythm. They don't necessarily have a love of the drums. They have a love of rhythm and it's shown up in their playing.

[Simon Kirke]

That's a good distinction. Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

Well, I think it's important because people get lost on what drummers are good at. Most of the popular records historically are played by guys who are really great rhythm players. They may not be the most flashy chop guys, but they've got the backbeat that makes the kids want to dance, to sort of paraphrase.

[Simon Kirke]

Well, that brings me to the. The three biggest influences in my career were Al Jackson Jr. The number one from the Stax band, Booker T. And the MGs, of course, Ringo, who I had the pleasure with touring alongside in the All Star Band, and Charlie Watts, who was not flashy at all. He says I'm not good enough to be flash.

[Billy Corgan]

Didn't care about any of that.

[Simon Kirke]

No, he didn't. He played that jazz grip like Stuart, like Cody.

[Billy Corgan]

Then the weird, always lifting and the.

[Simon Kirke]

Yep, Weird mechanical. But he had this beautiful backbeat and he just. Those three guys laid down a rhythmic foundation. And I like the distinction between the rhythm and actual, you know, beat.

[Billy Corgan]

I had a question about Al Jackson, so you. No, but it's fine. Because Stax in the American canon is, in a way, underappreciated, because Motown gets all the glossy, glossy love. But musicians are very aware of how important Stax is. And I think it's interesting because a lot of guys from your generation, they were attracted to Motown. Obviously. The Beatles were huge on Motown. But a lot of the guys who ended up playing, like, heavy blues, they tended to be more Stax guys.

[Simon Kirke]

Correct.

[Billy Corgan]

Can you speak on that a bit?

[Simon Kirke]

Well, I think the difference between Motown and Stax is that Motown had a huge roster of artists and they were a little more flamboyant. I mean, they had that wonderful rhythm section, James Jameson on bass, Benny Benjam. But they had a much bigger roster. They used strings, they used flutes. Whereas Stax was a bit more muscular. Always, you know, with that wonderful Al Jackson. And they had maybe a handful. Otis, Sam and Dave, Wilson Pickett, you know, so they never really made the inroads, certainly, into England and Europe that Motown did.

[Billy Corgan]

Ah, I see.

[Simon Kirke]

You know.

[Billy Corgan]

So was it like if you were a kid listening around time, Stacks was a little bit more of a secret.

[Simon Kirke]

Stacks. When I first heard Otis Redding, it was Dock of the Bay.

[Billy Corgan]

And it was the week he'd already died. Right?

[Simon Kirke]

He'd already died. And Steve Cropper said the most. The toughest thing it was for him was to mix the week after Otis had passed. But I was in just finishing high school. I was 18, so it would be 19, 67, 68. And I heard the Sitting in the Morning song. I thought, oh, that's nice. And I only heard that sort of side stick. It didn't really. Until Al started branching out into the snare and the full thing. Oh, that's great. But then after that, there was a bit of a lull, until Midnight Hour came in. Wilson Pickett. And I heard that backbeat for the first time and went, whoa. But at the same time, Motown was coming up with Marvin Gay and the Supremes, Smokey Robinson, the Miracles. And they started kind of overtaking. They were more pop.

[Billy Corgan]

Right.

[Simon Kirke]

I guess that's it. They were more pop than Stacks.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah.

[Simon Kirke]

But every time. Every time before I went on to. To play on stage, I would put on the best of Otis Redding. And Sam and Dale are lovely.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting because my father was a musician, never really had any success, but one of the bands that he had for a while, the drummer, was one of Wilson Pickett's touring drummers.

[Simon Kirke]

Okay.

[Billy Corgan]

A Southern drummer. And so when I was five years old, I go down, listen to Them play in the basement. And this guy had that. That heavy foot backbeat thing.

[Simon Kirke]

Yeah, yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

So I was always conscious of that music because my father loved that music. So connecting the dots with you on Al Jackson, it made a lot of sense because not a lot of guys know how to play that. That I don't even. It's even like there's the English version of the shuffle, but there's the American version of the shuffle. So you know what I'm talking about, right? Yeah, yeah.

[Simon Kirke]

Very good.

[Billy Corgan]

Well, Mick Fleetwood, because like the English version of the Shovel to me is. I can think of his name. The drummer for your I Heap.

[Simon Kirke]

Oh, Lee Kersley.

[Billy Corgan]

It's more of a rock lean.

[Simon Kirke]

It's like Cordonneau.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah.

[Simon Kirke]

I can't get enough.

[Billy Corgan]

But your version is a little bit more right.

[Simon Kirke]

Yeah. Sonny Freeman was B.B. king's drummer. And me and Mick Fleetwood is a good friend of mine, agree that Sonny was the king of the shuffle. And with Sonny, everything was. Including the left hand and the bass drum. Not quarter notes on the bass drum. There's that groove, though, the whole thing, you know.

[Billy Corgan]

There's that groove though.

[Simon Kirke]

Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

Because that's. It's interesting to me how English musicians interpreted American music and American musicians interpreted English music.

[Simon Kirke]

Well, you gave us Wilson Pickett and we gave you Benny Hill.

[Billy Corgan]

Is that a fair trade? Maybe Benny Hill, his own genius, though.

[Simon Kirke]

He is his own genius, yes.

[Billy Corgan]

I'm curious because I was doing my poke around on your. On your life. What did your parents do?

[Simon Kirke]

They were. My mom was a stay at home housewife who had an amazing record collection. I won't go too far into it now.

[Billy Corgan]

Tell me.

[Simon Kirke]

She was very. And she was a bit of a mystery, my mom, because number one, she was illegitimate.

[Billy Corgan]

Okay.

[Simon Kirke]

Which back in the 20s, I mean, the 1920s was huge. So she grew up with this kind of stigma and she. I didn't know until she passed away. And my older brother told me, you know, mum was a really good pianist. She gotta be kidding me. She apparently played real beautiful and she had this amazing record collection which she amassed over her teenage years and 20s, which she had to give up when she moved to the country where we lived very primitively. We had no electricity, no running water, you know, it was great.

[Billy Corgan]

So what did your dad. Dad do?

[Simon Kirke]

Dad was a bus driver.

[Billy Corgan]

Okay.

[Simon Kirke]

Yeah. He was a bit of a dark horse, my dad, but yeah. And he. A bit of a philistine. He didn't like music. He wrote poetry. And I found a book of his poems years ago which kind of moved me to tears because he was a bit of a closet, you know, poet laureate. I was amazed. Dad, you wrote this. Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

So because you were talking about growing up in this, you know, in form of poverty. What. What happened that changed? Because at some point, you know, you start to become aware of mass media question. You know, the radio, the television. Did something change economically in the family or electricity? No, but I mean, did your dad get a better gig or.

[Simon Kirke]

Well, we got what's called a council house, which is a state owned dwelling. And you put, you get, you know, you go on the list. And we, we moved from this cottage up on a hill with no electricity or running water, and we finally got the news that we'd been accepted into this state owned house which had electricity. And within a month, and I'll never forget mom scraping the wall and clicking the light switch. And the light went on. She almost burst into tears. So we got a tv, a black and white tv. And the very first thing that I saw when the thing you turn it on and that little white dot opened up was this thing called a program called all that Jazz. And it featured big bands.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah.

[Simon Kirke]

All in black and white. So I'm riveted by this. And the drummer and the lights were shining off the cymbals. And then he did. And I'm like me sideways. And that was it. That was a lightning bolt. Sorry for my French, but this is a podcast and I'm getting all wound up. But that was the lightning bolt where I went, that's what I want to be.

[Billy Corgan]

And you were how old when this lightning. It's funny for me, it was 14.

[Simon Kirke]

Was it?

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah, same. I saw a guy playing the guitar. Sorry, I didn't mean to.

[Simon Kirke]

No, no, no.

[Billy Corgan]

I saw a guy playing the guitar.

[Simon Kirke]

I thought, isn't it funny?

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah, that was it.

[Simon Kirke]

Wow. Because I saw the trombone. Didn't. The saxophone and the sticks. And of course it was night.

[Billy Corgan]

Well, you intuitively knew the drummers get all the girls.

[Simon Kirke]

Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

How do you.

[Simon Kirke]

I have to interject, please. That I have to thank this radio station that was actually set up for the GIs in Europe who were stationed after World War II.

[Billy Corgan]

Was this Radio Free Europe?

[Simon Kirke]

No, Luxembourg. Radio Luxembourg 208. And it was in this tiny country sandwiched between France and Belgium called Luxembourg. It's about the size of this studio, but they had this amazing station that played stacks and Tamil and blues. Catering mainly to the. The black servicemen. Yeah. In. In Germany and France and. And so I went out to the Hedgerows And I bought. I. I cut a pair of sticks, which. About that big. I had no idea how long sticks were.16 inches, as you probably know by now. So I had these little things and I put a couple of books on my bed and I had a little transistor radio with an earpiece and I tune into, you know, ladies and gentlemen, please welcome. And suddenly you'd hear, yeah, you know, and I play along on my tins and books.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah, that's it.

[Simon Kirke]

That was my education.

[Billy Corgan]

How'd you float down to London at some point?

[Simon Kirke]

Good question. Well, the big stepping stone for me was I wanted to leave school early. And being a parent now myself, I know that it was a tough decision for my parents to say, no, you're not going to leave at 16, you're going to leave at 18. Because there are two grades of exams in high school. There's O levels, it was called ordinary levels, which are. Yeah, not bad. And there's advanced level A levels and you get two or three of those, you can get into a good college.

[Billy Corgan]

Right.

[Simon Kirke]

So I wanted to leave when I got my O levels and go down to London. No, no, no, no, no. Because if it all fails and you come back with a bunch of O levels, you get nothing. You'll get into technical schools. And so they made me stay the extra two years, which I did. And when at 18, I said, right, I want to go to London. And they said, okay, you've got two years, you can still go to college at 20 if. If it all fails.

[Billy Corgan]

Okay. So they supported the decision.

[Simon Kirke]

Well, my dad didn't, but my mum did, because it was the musician in her that said, go on, give it a shot. Because the two saddest words of music, two of the saddest words are if only. Yeah. And I wanted to give it a shot. So I went down to London and this was at the height of the blues boom. Yeah, In. In England, where, you know, Albert King and BB and Freddie Josh, they couldn't get arrested in this country, but they'd go to Europe in these package tours and they'd sell out the album.

[Billy Corgan]

And also was. They were being treated well.

[Simon Kirke]

They were.

[Billy Corgan]

They were shocked. I mean, these great musicians, which are all legends now, they couldn't believe how well they were treated in Europe and the uk, where in America they were treated like.

[Simon Kirke]

And then the. The sax tour came in. 67, I believe, or 60.

[Billy Corgan]

I interviewed Sam of Sam and Dave Passed Away and. Yeah, we talked about that tour.

[Simon Kirke]

Yeah, yeah. Oh, I never saw it, but, wow.

[Billy Corgan]

There'S Video, I think of it. Yeah, I know there's a live record of it.

[Simon Kirke]

Well, Otis said, never put me on after Sam and Dave again. I was.

[Billy Corgan]

Because.

[Simon Kirke]

Because they were so. So they were something else. Yeah. Yeah, right.

[Billy Corgan]

Myself. So you float down to. You float down to London.

[Simon Kirke]

I went down to London and I. I had two years. So the clock was ticking. And I would answer ads in the Melody Maker, which is the primo musical newspaper in England at the time. And drummer wanted la la la. At the same time I'm doing car washing and construction and working on building sites, construction site. And I answered several auditions and I never got in any of them, really. No, no. Except for one. And it was a toss up between me and this other drummer who was the son of the manager. And the band was called Love Affair, which was this pop band that was. Had quite a big success. So I was really disappointed when they finally said, sorry, Simon, you're not in. The manager's son is in. But anyway, so cut to the 23rd month of my 24 allotted months. And I'm thinking, it ain't gonna happen.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah.

[Simon Kirke]

Ah, it.

[Billy Corgan]

That's a long time.

[Simon Kirke]

It's a long time. And I was getting.

[Billy Corgan]

And when you're young in musical time, that's a long time.

[Simon Kirke]

Yeah. Because I knew that I was going to honor. I gave it a shot. So I picked up the money. Jamaica. And they're in the ads for. For clubs. And there was a lot of blues clubs in those days. In London was this band called the Black Cat Bones. What a great name. Never heard of them. So. But they were in.

[Billy Corgan]

Were they looking for a drummer?

[Simon Kirke]

No.

[Billy Corgan]

Oh, you saw an ad for them to.

[Simon Kirke]

I just like the name.

[Billy Corgan]

Oh, okay.

[Simon Kirke]

So if you imagine London like a huge American football. I'm here and this club is here. Like it's a 45 minute subway ride. Oh, what do I do? So I tossed a coin and I did. I swear to God. And it came down hedge, I thought. And I went to this club and I walked in and this band were playing. They were. They were pretty good. They were doing like Killing Floor and. Born Under a Bad Sign. Wow. The. The band were okay, but the guitarist was fantastic. Little guy. It was Paul Kosso.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah.

[Simon Kirke]

And during their break, they had a little two minute, 2:45 breaks. 2:45 minutes. He came to the bar and I had me half a pint of whatever. I said, hey, can I buy a drink? He said, yeah, yeah. I said, you play so well. You were really great. But your drummer. And I'm not normally a pushy guy, but something made me say that. He said, well, it's funny you should say that because he's getting the sack tonight. It's his last night and we are auditioning tomorrow at this same place. So if you want to come. So to go all the way back and then the next day all the way back again.

[Billy Corgan]

I hope he didn't flip a coin.

[Simon Kirke]

And there was another drummer there. I played a shuffle and a little bit of a slow blues.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah.

[Simon Kirke]

And I got the gig and that was for about six months. I was on cloud nine because I was earning money. It was a semi pro band. We were playing five or six nights a week.

[Billy Corgan]

Wow.

[Simon Kirke]

And then after about six months, Paul Kossoff came to me and said, look, I'm tired of playing this, you know, the same old. It was good, but it wasn't really.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah.

[Simon Kirke]

What he wanted to do. But I've met this singer who's in a band called Brown Sugar. He's leaving and he wants to, you know.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah.

[Simon Kirke]

Form a band with me. You know, you want to play drums and that was the beginning of free. Yeah. Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

Did you. Paul Kossoff, I mean as a guitar player, I mean he's a legend, you know. Incredible. Incredible. Like very few guys to me, and I'm speaking as a snobby guitar player now. Very few guys can play straight blues or blues infused rock and stand out. And he's one of those guys and I don't know how they do it because I can't do it. Because you know every guitar player and you've been in those jams, as soon as you start in the blues jam, everybody sounds sick, right? Everybody.

[Simon Kirke]

Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

You gotta be really a Johnny Winner or a Kossa, Stevie Ray or. What's this? Peter Green. You know, somehow when they play, they play the blues, somehow it sounds different.

[Simon Kirke]

It just rises above.

[Billy Corgan]

I don't know what that is because I. I couldn't do it. My. My daddy was really good at the blues. So I have a respect for. At least in my own world, I could understand that. I couldn't play the blues as good as my dad.

[Simon Kirke]

Oh, wow.

[Billy Corgan]

You know what I mean? But I. And he loved the blues and he loved Albert King. So he was a kind of a blues purist. But Kossoff's one of those guys that really sticks out.

[Simon Kirke]

Well, I. What happened when the light bulb came on for me? Work alongside people and I had a basic knowledge of guitar. I play guitar much better now than I did all those years ago. I Kind of took him for granted, you know. We playing alongside. Sure, yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

He's just your mate.

[Simon Kirke]

He played with elevens, by the way. Really thick strings.

[Billy Corgan]

Stevie Ray, too.

[Simon Kirke]

Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

So high action, too.

[Simon Kirke]

And a high action. I don't know how he did it because he was only a little bloke.

[Billy Corgan]

I don't know what it is about those guys. They want the high action and they want the heavy strings. I think it's all about kind of forcing the note out.

[Simon Kirke]

Yeah. So we were playing with Blind Faith.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah.

[Simon Kirke]

At Madison Square Garden. We did a couple of gigs.

[Billy Corgan]

You fly over and you're playing Madison Square Garden and opening for Blind Fate. Hello.

[Simon Kirke]

I never saw such a big. You gotta remember, it's still a big gig. It's a big. And it's the old one. This is the old one. It's about 10 blocks south of the one that is now. But it's still 20,000 bloody seats. So when we. We did, we played a little club called the Blue angel in Surrey. And two nights later, we walk into this and we hear Bonnie and Delaney doing a sound check because it was free. Bonnie Delaney and Blindfold. And. And I saw Jim Keltner, the first real drummer. I'm gonna.

[Billy Corgan]

I'm laughing because it's just like. It's so. Like. Right, you're in it now.

[Simon Kirke]

And so we did three or four shows, and one night we'd done our little set, and one roadie came and he said, eric wants to come in.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah.

[Simon Kirke]

Wait a minute. Eric Clapton?

[Billy Corgan]

That Eric?

[Simon Kirke]

Yeah, he said he wants it. He's that all right. I see. You kidding me? Of course. So he walks in, he goes up to cost. He said, you know, pats him on the back, said, how do you do that vibrato? And Costa says, you're kidding me. The greatest guitarist in the world. And you're asking. Yeah. You do it so slowly. So they start talking guitar speed, and, you know, we're just like. And I think that's when I realized, God, Kos really is good that Clapton was.

[Billy Corgan]

Because he's just your guy, right?

[Simon Kirke]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And then, of course, once I got playing guitar myself, I realized just how good he was.

[Billy Corgan]

He's really. Yeah, he's one of those guys that really stands out. If you don't. If people don't know Paul Kossoff's playing. He's one of those guys. That's just it. He never disappoints as a guitar player.

[Simon Kirke]

Well, he's solo and all right now.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah.

[Simon Kirke]

You know, Rolling Stone. They have, you know, the greatest.

[Billy Corgan]

I have a story for you on that.

[Simon Kirke]

Okay.

[Billy Corgan]

I have an insider story for you on that.

[Simon Kirke]

Really?

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah.

[Simon Kirke]

And I believe. All right, now, came in at around 30 or 40. One of the greatest guitar. I think he should have been in the top five. But anyway, when he did it, you gotta remember back in those days, we just had a 16 track.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah.

[Simon Kirke]

So I believe he took this solo three times. And it starts in the middle of a, you know, around. On the fifth fret and gradually winds its way right up above the 12th. And we'd go, yeah, come on, you little. Come on.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah.

[Simon Kirke]

And he'd come in, we'd give him a hug. Yeah, go on, do one more. So I think we. We spliced two together.

[Billy Corgan]

Okay. Which is I. I know a story. I'm glad I could contribute to this. So I worked with Roy Thomas Baker in 2006 and 2007. God bless Roy. He's passed away.

[Simon Kirke]

Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

And of course, we knew about Roy doing Queen and. And the Cars and Motley Crue and stuff like this. But one day I was. I don't know, I was on the Internet. I realized that he had produced that record for me, Fire and Water. And I came and I said, holy, Roy, you did. All right now, too. And very right. Thomas Baker. He goes, yeah. And he makes this, like, sad face. And I'm like, what's to be sad about? He goes, every time I hear the record, I wish I could do his. You can hear his voice. Yeah, yeah, I know. It's like very ponce, Roy. He said, every time I hear that record, I hear where I didn't get the punch right on the solo.

[Simon Kirke]

Get out of here.

[Billy Corgan]

And if you listen very closely, somewhere in the middle, you can hear. Because of the old recorders, they didn't punch in very well. You can hear a little clunk, millisecond. You have to really listen for it. And he said he punched Paul in somewhere in there. And I've heard it.

[Simon Kirke]

Well, well.

[Billy Corgan]

So that's my. That's my contribution to your. To your lore.

[Simon Kirke]

That's a good one.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah. Guys. So you guys had put out a couple records. Didn't do great.

[Simon Kirke]

No.

[Billy Corgan]

Obviously it's a fire. Fire and fire and firewater that. Then you guys just. Well, it blow the hell up off.

[Simon Kirke]

What happened was we. We did what's called the Transit circuit. Transit is an old sort of a van. And we go in our little van with all the gear in the back.

[Billy Corgan]

So I saw this somewhere. Paul was the driver, right?

[Simon Kirke]

Paul Was a driver.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah, he was your only driver.

[Simon Kirke]

He was the only driver. And he'd have this, you know, I have a little shiggy guy. And we have to talk to him to keep him awake. Hey, Paul, wake up. And so we went all over England and Scotland and a little bit of Europe, France, Belgium, Holland. And we amassed this sort of ground fan base.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah.

[Simon Kirke]

And, you know, we. We got to be a really, really good club band. So what happened was, with All Right now was we came off stage to the sound of our own footsteps because we had this. The main free groove was, you know, it was kind of a sort of head rocking, but not, you know, it was not live.

[Billy Corgan]

A lot of space in that.

[Simon Kirke]

A lot of space. A lot of hash. We swung a lot of hash. So we. We were at this university in. In the north of England, and we came off the stage like that was it. And we had to walk through the crowd to get the dressing rooms. They weren't at the back of the stage. So it was like, excuse me, excuse me. Yeah, sorry. And we get to the dressing room, we said, we need a song that people can dance to. As simple as that. And another lightning bolt hit. Andy Fraser in that dressing room. He said, oh, right now, baby. It's all. Oh, that's good.

[Billy Corgan]

Really?

[Simon Kirke]

Yeah, I swear to God. And he had the da, da, da, those three notes already. And him and Paul Rogers, who were the main songwriting team, went off. And the next. I think the next week we did a sound check and we. This is what happened. We were listening. Me and Paul Kossoff used to have these listening sessions. In fact, the four of us would have listening sessions of an album of the week that we would like. And the year before, Right Now, Honky Tonk Woman came out.

[Billy Corgan]

Sure, yeah.

[Simon Kirke]

In open G. And I didn't know at the time it was open G without that bottom E string, but that kind of lit a fire under Paul Kossoff's bum. And he slid it up to A and became. It's funny how things, you know, germinate. Yeah. So we. We honed it and played it and we finally debuted it at a gig in the north of England, where we couldn't fail. We were very popular and the place went nuts. It went nuts. And off it went. And honestly, Billy, it became a bit of an albatross around our neck because we couldn't follow it up. We had this huge global hit.

[Billy Corgan]

I see.

[Simon Kirke]

Yeah. And it was great because suddenly we were playing different countries.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah. I saw isle of Wight 600,000 plus people.

[Simon Kirke]

Yeah, yeah, that's another story. That's a great story. But, yeah. So we were the flavor of that particular month In July of 70, I think it was 70. And they said, would you like to appear, you know, on the same lineup as Hendrix, Janice Joplin? Oh, we're there, man. We're there. So they flew us in. We're supposed to go on at 8 on Saturday night, which is the marquee.

[Billy Corgan]

This is the way. Yeah, yeah.

[Simon Kirke]

And we flew from our little hotel on the west end of the island and we flew over, first time in a helicopter. And we looked down, we see this sea of what I thought were ants all over the place. I said, that's the crowd. And then right there, about the size of a postage stamp, was the stage. So anyway, we get there and it's about 5 o'. Clock. We're supposed to go on at 8. Bit nervous, have a little puff, little sip of something. The hours go by and by. Everyone's running over time. Time till like 10 o' clock at night. Our manager comes in, comes in and says, you're not going on tonight. No, everyone's running over, by the way, on Saturday night, Sly and the Family Stone took the stage at 4 o' clock in the morning. So he said, you're gonna go on tomorrow, Sunday, 1 o'.

[Billy Corgan]

Clock.

[Simon Kirke]

Best thing he ever did for us. We flew home, back to the hotel, but when we came out on Sunday morning, got to the site at noon, we went on one o'.

[Billy Corgan]

Clock.

[Simon Kirke]

We were energized, the crowd was. And we just blew it out of the park.

[Billy Corgan]

Wow.

[Simon Kirke]

Yeah, that's cool. That was the Isle of Wight.

[Billy Corgan]

So when you. Two things. I get what you're saying about not following it up, but what was the. What was the aesthetic in the band? Because, you know, some bands were pure blues. You know, there was that whole vibe and listening to your music through the years. It's not a commercial band.

[Simon Kirke]

No.

[Billy Corgan]

It's a band that just said, hey, we want to do what we want to do, play, do it our way. And it holds up. I mean, the music is very credible. Obviously, Paul's an incredible singer as well. But what was the internal thought in the band?

[Simon Kirke]

Well, all right now. Filled a void and it ticked a particular box. All right, we got a pop hit. Now let's really. And it was enjoyable and I still enjoy playing it to this day. But it didn't define free. Free was. I guess you could call us a. A progressive blues rock band.

[Billy Corgan]

Okay.

[Simon Kirke]

Because the blues was really the foundation of all our music, you know, so when. When we couldn't follow. All right, now we had a song called Steeler, the Steelers, which was great, but it was that loping beat.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah.

[Simon Kirke]

It didn't chart. The album didn't chart. And we were kids and. And we were like, well, that. Then we'll. We'll break up. I didn't say that. Paul Rogers and Andy Fraserson were breaking the band up and we were barely in our 21. Paul was 19 and. And we suddenly go, let's just have a break. Come back in six months. Which you couldn't really do in those days.

[Billy Corgan]

No, it wasn't like that. You know, nowadays, now, it'd be a business strategy.

[Simon Kirke]

Yeah, it would. You know, bands release albums every two or three years.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah.

[Simon Kirke]

Back then it was like two a year. So Island Records, you know, and I don't want to go on about it because I know more about addiction than I ever did back then. And Paul Kossoff became addicted to pills, and he was starting to show signs of that when Free split. And it really sent him into a downward spiral without Paul Rogers and Andy. And he got really bad and very, very downhearted, started doing lots of pills. So six, nine months later, we reformed for him. And I didn't know. I don't mind saying, I'm in recovery myself.

[Billy Corgan]

I don't.

[Simon Kirke]

I abuse substances. But back in those days, addiction was something you swept under the rug. You know, you didn't deal with it. You were a pariah. If you were addicted to alcohol or pills or coke or whatever.

[Billy Corgan]

Well, you also, I think maybe that crowd, you would. You were seen as weak, right? Is that it?

[Simon Kirke]

You were seen as weak? Yeah, absolutely.

[Billy Corgan]

Because you couldn't handle your drink.

[Simon Kirke]

Right.

[Billy Corgan]

Especially in a drinking culture like the uk.

[Simon Kirke]

Yeah, yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

You can't handle your drink. Yeah, yeah.

[Simon Kirke]

What are you, some pussy or something?

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah, exactly.

[Simon Kirke]

But Eric, Eric was great because Eric was the first person to publicly, Captain, obviously, put his hand up and say, you know, I'm. I'm a junkie, I'm an addict. And he was using this doc, the. This called the. The box, invented by Dr. Meg Patterson. Okay. Which gave an electric shock, which sounds horrible nowadays, but it helped him get off. And he reached out to costs because he had a little. And he said, look, you know, go and see Meg Patterson, famous doctor. But he poo pooed it, and he just got worse and worse. So the reunion of Free didn't last very long and it led to some horrible.

[Billy Corgan]

So Rogers had his own issues on Paul Kossoff has his own issues.

[Simon Kirke]

Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

And then you guys are trying to kind of make.

[Simon Kirke]

Well, we reunited for the wrong reason. He should have gone to rehab. And to this day I kind of blame Island Records for not. For not pulling him by the scruff of the net and putting him in rehab. Cause I really think he could have made it. But the culture back in 1972 just. It wasn't around.

[Billy Corgan]

Different way.

[Simon Kirke]

Nowadays there's AA meetings every block. It's much more in the open. So anyway, he's continued to spiral and Free broke up again and we did go our own ways. And me and Paul formed Bad Company.

[Billy Corgan]

Before we set aside Free. Talk about your other. Your other small band. I was. I was listening to some of the music last couple days and I thought, this is interesting because I'm a big fan of Steve Marriott and I came very late to the Steve Marriott party. And what I mean by that is Humble Pie was sort of big in America. A couple hit 30 days in the Hole.

[Simon Kirke]

Great band.

[Billy Corgan]

But who. Humble Pie and who Steve Marriott was in music never translated into America into a message. They were just another band with a couple songs. Right. But I'm listening to you guys in the time when Free's still up there, right. And I'm thinking, I wonder how Steve Marriott. This just totally off the top of my head. I wonder how Steve Marriott felt about Free.

[Simon Kirke]

It's funny to say.

[Billy Corgan]

So I start googling around as you do, and I'll let you pick it up from there.

[Simon Kirke]

Well, when Paul decided to leave the band, Free splintered. Finally, our manager at the time said, well, why don't we get another singer? How are you gonna fill Paul Rogers boot Steve Marriott. And Steve is an incredible singer.

[Billy Corgan]

Unbeliev.

[Simon Kirke]

Oh, and a little 120 pound, dripping wet, 5 foot 4.

[Billy Corgan]

Same but for our generation. Same thing with Kurt Cobain.

[Simon Kirke]

Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

You'd look at him and say, how does that sound? Come out.

[Simon Kirke]

Come out of that little body. Yeah. That skinny little thing.

[Billy Corgan]

That's the same thing with Cobain. You. You would watch him on stage and you couldn't believe. No. And I think that must have been the. I never saw Marriott live, but watching the even going back to small faces. What a voice.

[Simon Kirke]

What a voice. Well, we toured our first package tour because back in those days there was a thing called package tour which was taking the leaf out of Stacks who had. You know that wonderful package tour that went all over Europe was free. We had 20 minutes. The crazy world of Arthur Brown. Fire with the helmet Gina Washington. No art. Crazy world of other Brown. Gina Washington. Joe Cocker.

[Billy Corgan]

Okay, nice.

[Simon Kirke]

The small faces and the whole.

[Billy Corgan]

Not a bad.

[Simon Kirke]

Not a bad bill all on one. So we got to see Marion at his peak every night.

[Billy Corgan]

Every night. And he was only going up for what, 20, 30 minutes? So he was going there.

[Simon Kirke]

Yeah, yeah. Wonderful. Pitching such a soulful voice. Anyway, he came to my house when Paul had made an exit and.

[Billy Corgan]

But. Can I stop you one second?

[Simon Kirke]

Yeah, sure.

[Billy Corgan]

But he. But he was critical of Free. Like, there was a bit of a. Kind of a weird jealousy there, right?

[Simon Kirke]

I don't know. Oh, maybe.

[Billy Corgan]

No. Apparently what I read in the course, it's the Internet, was he said negative stuff about you guys, and he later apologized.

[Simon Kirke]

Oh, all right.

[Billy Corgan]

He kind of felt bad. But I. But. But I can see why, because you guys were a little younger.

[Simon Kirke]

We were.

[Billy Corgan]

And you. In a way, you had the breakthrough that he never had.

[Simon Kirke]

Yeah. Yeah. Well, Free were kind of shackled by poor Kosov's addiction. We only completed two tours of America.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah.

[Simon Kirke]

We were slated to do five, and three of them were canceled because of Costa's addiction. So we never. We were never. We never allowed ourselves. Circumstances. Allowed herself to give it a big shot. Otherwise, I think Free would have been much bigger.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah.

[Simon Kirke]

Because we were that great little band that could but never did. Yeah. So along comes Humble Pie. Same lineup, great guitarist, Frampton, one of the most underrated. Guitar and Marriott. And the great singer. Jerry was a great drummer and they were just a great band. But they just. There's something. They didn't really click, but that's.

[Billy Corgan]

That.

[Simon Kirke]

That's a good point.

[Billy Corgan]

So anyway, so he comes to your house.

[Simon Kirke]

He comes to my house and it's about 11 in the morning.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah.

[Simon Kirke]

And I have a little boathouse at the bottom of my garden where my studio is. And he says, oh, so good to meet you, mate. La, la, la. What time do the pubs open? I said, oh, 11:30. Still open now?

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah.

[Simon Kirke]

He said, well, I'll come back in a minute. I just want to grab a pint. So he disappears for, you know, 20 minutes, come back half an hour later. I'm just going to go to the pub again. Oh. And I'm just getting over Paul Kossoff with his addictions. And here's Stevie. It's one o' clock and he's already half cut.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah.

[Simon Kirke]

So I told the manager, I said, it ain't gonna work. It's not gonna. Oh, wow. And I think he told me, sorry, guys. And that started the en.

[Billy Corgan]

Oh, okay. That dislike, that makes it make a bit more sense.

[Simon Kirke]

Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

Did you. I only ask you because I saw this recently. I was watching an interview with Glenn Hughes of Deep Purple fame, great player. And he was talking about when he first came into Deep Purple, how there was talk that before they got Coverdale, they wanted Paul Rogers. Is that a true story?

[Simon Kirke]

Yeah, that's true. I don't think he auditioned. Yeah, but he was approached and he turned them down.

[Billy Corgan]

I doubt they would ask him to audition because.

[Simon Kirke]

No, it would be one of those.

[Billy Corgan]

Things like, do you want the King? Well, who's going to follow Ian Gillen at that? No, a guy like with Paul Rod.

[Simon Kirke]

Well, there was a different style. I mean, in the Purple, in their heyday, fantastic band, but they were the kings or the, the forerunners or precursors to heavy metal. And Ian was one of those, you know, I saw almost operatics before Freddie.

[Billy Corgan]

I like your.

[Simon Kirke]

And Paul was more blues. Yeah, more Otis, you know, so it wouldn't have worked.

[Billy Corgan]

I'm curious because on, on. On paper it says that you and. And Paul Rogers go on and form Bad Company, but that only happens because, you know, and I get it in reverse, people tend to focus on the lead singer. Whether the lead singer is the band or not.

[Simon Kirke]

It's.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah, it's right. People tend to focus on the lead singer because that's the face of the band. And I'm sure Paul, just like we're talking about Rogers, would. Had innumerable opportunities as a solo artist, whatever. So the fact that he goes and starts another band with you, I was like, okay. They must have had an interesting relationship because that's usually where. If Paul Rogers was about Paul Rogers, he would have bolted on you and gone and done whatever and made it his world. But he. He wanted you and him to carry on.

[Simon Kirke]

Yes.

[Billy Corgan]

Is that, Is that accurate?

[Simon Kirke]

I. I pretty. Not. Not 100%. The story of the formation of Bad Company, just going back a little bit, going through that, sort of forged in that fire of Free, you know, kind of bonded us. You know, we were, we were the demise of our little band that became so big and we loved each other. But when Paul Kossoff started spiraling out of control, me and Rogers kind of bonded on a personal level. Andy Fraser kind of went his own way. So when I called Paul in spring of 73, he said, I've been in Brazil just trying to get my head straight away from the mess of Free. I said, hey, Paul, what you up to? And he said, well, I've met this great guy From Mott the Hoople, Mick Ralph, and we want to form a band. So it was mainly Mick and Paul. Paul had formed a band called Peace and they were opening for Mott the Hoople on a tour of England.

[Billy Corgan]

Oh, okay.

[Simon Kirke]

And Mick was getting disenchanted with Ian Hunter and he wanted to go his own way. And he had a little cassette of this song called Can't Get Enough. And it was a little linn drum machine and this open sea tuning where the neck of the guitar is like, because it's so tense, you know. And he played this open sea and Paul said, this is a fucking hit, man. And Mick told me when he started singing in that dressing room along to the demo, he's. The hair's on his back of his neck.

[Billy Corgan]

It's a classic.

[Simon Kirke]

Yeah. So he said, look, would you want to. You want to come and play drums? Absolutely. So it was Mick and Paul who really came up with Bad Company. Yeah, yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

No, because it's just. I just. I know too well how musicians think. Right. Yeah. So I, at least I appreciate it from a fan point of view that. That you guys had enough of a relationship that you want to continue that relationship.

[Simon Kirke]

Definitely.

[Billy Corgan]

I'm trying to find the right way to phrase the question was, was it deliberately intended that Bad Company would be a more commercial band? Was that in the roots of the thinking from the get go or did it just kind of go that way?

[Simon Kirke]

No, commercial was not. What we had in mind was to throw off the shackles of our three previous bands. As you know, Boz Burrell came from King Crimson. Mick, you know, left Mott the Hoople, me and Paul left the Ashes of Free. So we just wanted to play what we wanted to play. And it just so happened that what you're hearing on the first three albums is about is the four guys who are having fun. And if it was a hit, it was a hit. You Gotta remember, in 73, it was the adventure, the emergence of album radio, FM radio, which kind of discarded the 45s, which is left to AM radio. So they started playing entire albums. And at the forefront of this was Led Zeppelin. Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

So is the logic then, okay, we can just focus on being a great band with great songs and the rest will take care of itself.

[Simon Kirke]

Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

And we don't have to worry about Single single single.

[Simon Kirke]

Exactly.

[Billy Corgan]

Which is interesting because you guys end up being a really commercial band.

[Simon Kirke]

Can't Get Enough was like in the top three in America. We didn't want that. Well, we didn't plan it, but it Happened. So what? Yeah. And Zeppelin of course at that time were bigger than sliced bread. And they said, they stewed that whole thing about singles and so on and their albums, you know, sold by the ton. So when Peter Grant asked us if we'd like to be on their label, we said, well, think about it. Yes. You know, and, and we.

[Billy Corgan]

You guys were the first artists. I'm this one.

[Simon Kirke]

And it was a perfect storm.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah.

[Simon Kirke]

Because we were, we were like greyhounds let out of the trap. Just.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah.

[Simon Kirke]

You know, allied with this amazing Led Zeppelin and. And Swan Song record.

[Billy Corgan]

What was it? What was it? It's not fair to. It's apples and oranges. But what was it about Mick Ralph's skill set as a musician and as a guitar player and as a writer? No, that kind of made it because I don't, and I don't mean commercial in a denigrating way, but there's something about that formula that produces all this and it's not wholly different music. You guys are still playing kind of blues based, ish rock. But suddenly it all sudden snaps into focus.

[Simon Kirke]

No. BB King said a great thing years ago in an interview. He said, I don't like playing with geniuses. I like playing with people that I like, that I get on with. And it's so true. I played with geniuses. And to a man they're a pain in the ass, you know that you, you have those moments of whoa, what the. That's incredible. Followed by great bouts of oh, what guy is going to walk through the door tonight? I wonder. With Mick, you had a guy.

[Billy Corgan]

I think I resembled this remark.

[Simon Kirke]

So, you know, with Mick, Mick was number one. He was fun, funny, gregarious, easy to get on with. And he just happened to write these wonderful songs. Everything was like one straight finger because it was moving on. Can't get enough, Ready for Love. Beautiful song.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah.

[Simon Kirke]

And he was just easy to get on with. And, and, and Paul was. Had this weight taken off his shoulders. He, his writing partner was someone that he liked and got on with and it was just, Just a wonderful marriage, you know, so that's, that's. We were like kids in a candy store really. Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

First few years, those rest, those records still hold up very well because there's a sort of a muscularity to the sound. Was that intentional or was that just the way the records were being made at that time or.

[Simon Kirke]

Ah, never, never thought of that.

[Billy Corgan]

Because when I think of Bad Company. Yeah, it is masculine as I was listening when those records were coming out.

[Simon Kirke]

Right.

[Billy Corgan]

And you Guys were huge in Chicago on the radio. I mean, all your top songs were huge in Chicago and they're still getting played like crazy. But I remember thinking like. And I didn't make the connection at the time between Free and Bad Company. To me, just Bad Company.

[Simon Kirke]

Well, you wouldn't. Two totally separate.

[Billy Corgan]

What I'm saying is I didn't even know there was a historical connection. I didn't even know it was the same singer. You know what I mean? Just suddenly there's this band called Bad Company which saw these hits songs on the radio. But it always struck me the records have a real muscularity to them, like a physical thing. Where a lot of blues ish type bands, they end up sounding kind of not thin, but yeah, they don't have that. I don't know. There's a weight to Bad Company that I always liked. Like even the song Bad Company, it's like the production is just so good, you know.

[Simon Kirke]

They asked Charlie Watts and Bill Wyman there, the two reluctant interviewees in the backstage at some enormous stadium. And Charlie and Bill shuffle in and the guy says, how come you two such the best rhythm section in the world? And Charlie said, no, I don't know, we just play together. And it's one of those trite answers that you can't. I played to enjoy it. I played because I was only 24, 25 at the time. I was. I was in awe of Al Jackson Jr. But I had that muscularity because I wanted to lay down something that was solid. Like a cinder block.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah.

[Simon Kirke]

And we always played in studios that were not studios. We rented a house.

[Billy Corgan]

We had Headley Grange, which is Zeppelin meeting. What is it then?

[Simon Kirke]

Clearwell Castle, which was a castle on the border of Wales. So we each had our own room. So the separation between the.

[Billy Corgan]

Is that what it was? Okay, maybe that's why it sounds so good.

[Simon Kirke]

Maybe. And all our albums were done in non studio.

[Billy Corgan]

We were usually using the Ronnie Lane.

[Simon Kirke]

Ronnie Lane or the Rolling Stones mobile. Yeah, yeah. We never use a real studio.

[Billy Corgan]

It seems to me when I'm. When I get a chance to interview someone with your accomplishment, you know, you can really grind down into details because there's so many great songs and what about this? And there's always a story and stuff like that. I feel like it's interesting because it's interesting, but it's not as interesting as maybe something that you and I and very few people would understand. Which is why the fans are focused and why the media is focused on this incredible moment and this Hit song. And this thing. It doesn't feel that way when you're in a band. It's kind of a. It's almost like a blur.

[Simon Kirke]

Yeah, yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

It doesn't feel like a blur. It's a fun blur, but it's a blur. Yeah. So. And it strikes me, because of the success that Bad Company had, it's. But tell me from the outside, looking at it from a musician's perspective, it looks like Record, Tour. Record Tour. Record Tour.

[Simon Kirke]

Exactly right.

[Billy Corgan]

Did it.

[Simon Kirke]

And that became. That took a toll, particularly on Paul and, you know, as a musician that a vocalist only has his throat to rely on. You know, we're lucky. You know, we can. Can turn up the volume or I can, you know, ask the guys in the morning to turn me up, but the vocalist is kind of naked for 90 minutes or 120 minutes. And we had this. We were on this carousel of tour, album, tour, album, tour, album. And Paul at one point said, I need a break, guys, because we're doing arenas. I mean, it's lovely on paper. The limos and the 20,000 sellouts and, you know, the whole, you know, plethora of. Of. Of stuff that can lead you down dark roads. And we had all of that in spade. Luckily enough. We were young enough to be able to enjoy it and not take too much of a toll.

[Billy Corgan]

The recovery times.

[Simon Kirke]

The recovery time.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah.

[Simon Kirke]

But there came a time when. When Paul Rogers said, I want a break. Yeah. And we didn't get it. And he said, was there a reason.

[Billy Corgan]

You didn't get the.

[Simon Kirke]

There were a lot of drugs involved. And I'm not. I'm not pointing my finger at anyone, but now that Peter has passed away, Peter Grant was going through his own struggles.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah.

[Simon Kirke]

With addiction. And Zeppelin were kind of on the ropes. And the whole. That whole late 90s cut, that whole late 70s period and late 80s and late 90s. Yeah. Became a bit of a millstone.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah.

[Simon Kirke]

And we were kind of left rudderless, if you will. I was having my own trouble with substances. And by the. When Bonzo died and John Bonham died. 1980.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah.

[Simon Kirke]

You had Lennon being shot. John Bonham died, and the whole rudder came off. Swan Song records. With Zeppelin, Bad Company. Peter Grant was a mess, and the band kind of broke up in 1982. We struggled rough Diamonds, which was our last album, and they got into a fistfight. It was horrible. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Once bands start hitting each other. Unless you.

[Billy Corgan]

Because I read something about. There was tension between Mick Ralphs and. And Paul Rogers.

[Simon Kirke]

But no, it was More between Boz. Believe it or not. Yeah. Boz Morrell and Paul. There was never any tension between Mick and Paul.

[Billy Corgan]

Okay, maybe.

[Simon Kirke]

So let's set.

[Billy Corgan]

Blame the Internet.

[Simon Kirke]

Yeah, yeah. Bass players, you know, God bless them. Pain in the ass and keyboard players. I'm kind of kidding. But it did lead to the breakup of the band. We had enjoyed amazing success and thanks to Peter's amazing management skills. The bond with Zeppelin. Yeah, you know, they were like big brothers to us. They came to our shows. We, you know, we came to them. And it was, you know, a lovely marriage. Marriage. But at some point, it took its toll and we split. 1982, we. Paul went off and that was it.

[Billy Corgan]

How? Well, I know you soldiered on, so it's a weird way to ask the question, but did you feel like you should stop? Or. I mean, what. On the exact moment of, like, okay, he's out, where were you at? Do you. In a way, were you relieved because, like, you could get off to.

[Simon Kirke]

Well, then the way it had suddenly turned was happening so quickly. And I understand now that Paul really needed a break. And I wish that Swansong had said to Atlantic Records, hey, let's put the brakes on this thing, because these guys are on the ropes. And there's something about record companies. They just don't understand that the investment of a few months off will yield more years. They just don't get it. So Paul went off in a huff, and I don't blame him. He started his own solo career. And we, the three of us, languished, you know, drumming our fingers. What we gonna do? So I got a call from Armit Ertegen from Atlantic, a wonderful guy, a legend. He said, hey, you know what's bad company do? I said, well. Well, we ain't got a singer because the best singer in the world has taken a hike. He said, so get another singer. Wow. So we did.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah.

[Simon Kirke]

You know, and I, and I. I'll be honest now, Billy, there was a certain cue to Paul because he. And, you know, now we're friends again. It's been a long time ago, 40 years ago. But at the time, I was like, we put all this work in.

[Billy Corgan]

I've been there. I, I, I was in the exact same situation. Somebody banged off, and I thought, yeah, I'm just gonna go on.

[Simon Kirke]

Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

You know.

[Simon Kirke]

So we did.

[Billy Corgan]

It gets in almost like a siege mentality, like, I'm gonna keep fighting or something.

[Simon Kirke]

Well, I didn't want all that work and all that popularity just to go down the drain.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah.

[Simon Kirke]

Because Paul Didn't.

[Billy Corgan]

And well, and also. What else are you going to do? You gonna go play golf or. No?

[Simon Kirke]

Well, I do and I didn't then. But I was only in 82. I was 33.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah.

[Simon Kirke]

And I was just like, come on, let's go. Yeah. So after two years, you know, I, I was big friends with Mick Jones from Foreigner who said, look, I've got this guy in the wings we've been grooming because Lou Graham wants to hang it up. He's got medical problems. La la la. And his name's Brian Howe and he's a good singer. He's not like Paul, but he's, he wants to work. He's a good singer. You want to check him out? So him. Yeah. Okay. And I met Brian who was. No, he was nothing like Paul. It was a different style. More like Ian Coverdale.

[Billy Corgan]

Okay.

[Simon Kirke]

You know, or Ian Gillan. Dave Coverdale. I'm sorry. Yeah, more like Dave or Ian Gill. But he wanted to work. Good looking guy and he was eager and we took him on board. And then the whole direction of the band kind of skewed away from the blues, you know, and became more, more heavy metal. And I'm honest now, you know, it was a period where, which I do regret and I'll put my hand up and say I, me and Mick kind of made a knee jerk decision and we took this guy on board. And it's weird, Billy, because what happened when Brian passed away a few years ago, there were all these Facebook and Instagram dedications to him from kids or, you know, people now who had only come to realize about Bad Company when Brian was in the band. Yeah, they didn't know about the former, you know, incarnation. So they were saying, who's this guy, Paul Rogers? I mean, why don't you mention Brian in the hall of fame and like, fucking hell. So there were these two distinct versions of the band. You know, if he had it to.

[Billy Corgan]

Do over again, do you think he should have just.

[Simon Kirke]

No.

[Billy Corgan]

Made a different name or you.

[Simon Kirke]

I wouldn't do it again. I was coerced. I was doing a lot of drugs and drinking and I wanted to tour. I wanted to, to continue the name. And we did. I mean, we sold millions of albums.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah.

[Simon Kirke]

With, with Brian. But it, it kind of tarnished. I think it tarnished the reputation a little bit.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah, it's. Something happened there where it seemed like the shine went off the band, but I don't have a specific memory of why and I guess maybe that's part of it.

[Simon Kirke]

Well, if you were to take the second incarnation of Bad Company and put it out with people never having known the first. I don't think it would have sold a tenth of what it did. But on the back of the original lineup, Bad Company was back with a different singer. Bit like Janny. You know, Journey managed, and still do to this day, with different singers. And they manage Foreigner. Don't even have an original member.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah. I think it's different times, too, because now the expectation is the brand of the band will continue. Journey's the most obvious example where they have a completely different lead singer and they're a stadium band.

[Simon Kirke]

Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

And then people have gotten very used to the idea that bands go out in. In much different configurations than the classic lineups.

[Simon Kirke]

Yeah. And they just want to hear the songs.

[Billy Corgan]

Isn't it? I'm asking for your. It's like if we were just sitting around just yucking it up. But isn't it interesting, at least to me, that at the end of the day, the song has become the most important thing. Where we grew up thinking the band was the most important thing and then the song was a part of. But now it's almost inverted. It's really about the songs. And if you have the songs, then people want to see that brand play those songs.

[Simon Kirke]

Well, the first band to do that were the Rolling Stones when Brian died.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah.

[Simon Kirke]

You know, they bought in. Ronnie.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah.

[Simon Kirke]

I was like, so what? They're still playing Satisfaction and I'm still woman and I'm going, me. Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

Well, I think Mick figured out all of this stuff many years before all of us.

[Simon Kirke]

I think so. You know, but when you're a four piece and one member goes or is particularly the singer.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah.

[Simon Kirke]

You can change drummers and bass players and even lead guitarists, but to come.

[Billy Corgan]

With Paul Rogers is one of the greatest rock singers in the history of that, for sure. Our shared genre. I mean, there's not even a question.

[Simon Kirke]

Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

What did you think when Paul went out with Queen? I thought that was an interesting choice.

[Simon Kirke]

I was gobsmacked because him and Freddie were so different in terms of singing style. But I went to see them at Nassau Coliseum. They were great. They didn't do Bohemian Rhapsody.

[Billy Corgan]

Interesting.

[Simon Kirke]

Well, I mean, it's kind of hard to duplicate that on stage, replicate it on stage. But they did We Will Rock youk and Rogers was like. And it worked okay. And once again, it goes back to the song's rule.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah.

[Simon Kirke]

You know, Roger and Brian were there, you know, with backup singers and whatever, and different bass players and keyboard Players. But we were rock kids. You know what? I Wanna Break Free. All the hits were there and that's what people came to hear. So I was pleased for him because his, the firm hadn't really blossomed. You know, the thing with Jimmy, I.

[Billy Corgan]

Actually saw the firm.

[Simon Kirke]

Did you? I never saw him. Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

It's interesting. I love Jimmy Pages. I've met Jimmy a few times, but I love Jimmy as a musician. So. I mean no disrespect, but Jimmy's had his own struggle.

[Simon Kirke]

Yeah, we know. Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

So I. I went to see them in Chicago when Radioactive was a big hit.

[Simon Kirke]

Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

And for the first half hour of the show it was magical. Jimmy was on fire. Paul was in good voice and it was like, wow.

[Simon Kirke]

Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

Like a level musicians playing a level stuff.

[Simon Kirke]

Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

And then I don't know what happened with Jimmy. All of a sudden it was like. Oh. And by the end it was. It was like a car crash. Wow. And I was a guitar player and grew up with a guitar father. So I was very aware of like what was happening. And he could even read the Bible.

[Simon Kirke]

Just a guitar. But you have a good guitar player, Mr. Corgan. But. So you were disappointed. I mean, just.

[Billy Corgan]

I couldn't believe that this was the same show that, that I watched a band go from being an elite rock and roll live act in an arena setting. Being like wow. To by the end I was like, what am I watching? And it was like Jimmy just sort of disintegrated live. It was very strange. I've never seen anything like it. And it's a very distinct memory to this day. And Jimmy's still one of my favorite songwriters, musicians ever. I mean, what a musician guitar corporation.

[Simon Kirke]

Well, there are certain. You know, we sort of followed Zeppelin all over the world sometimes. We, we went to each other's concerts and there'd be many books written about Zeppelin.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah.

[Simon Kirke]

Jim has never actually come out and said. Yeah, I went through a really. It's been alluded to that he had his struggles with heroin and him and Bonzo were, you know, Bonza was the wrecking ball, the one man wrecking ball crew. And Jimmy was this sort of ghost of a. Of a guy. And I'm not speaking out of town because everyone knows that Zeppelin in the late 70s were becoming this. Yeah. Drug fueled train wreck. Really. They just weren't happening. You had two camps. You had John, Paul and Robert, who you know, were the relatively sane guys. And then you had the other camp. Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

So I mean, maybe that's the root of the beautiful Musical.

[Simon Kirke]

There you go, Sparks.

[Billy Corgan]

Few more things. And thank you for indulging me because you went through that period when Paul left and you soldier on and you do have success. But there's always that sort of vibe. And I get it in my when so and so coming back or it doesn't sound the same and all that stuff. Now that you're sort of in the rear view mirror and everything's happened and the piece has been made where it needs to be made and all that stuff, how do you view? I guess what I would say is, I'm asking is, can you speak to what it's like to experience? Because I think most fans don't really understand those sort of choices. Like, you talked about, like, I wanted a tour, I wanted to make bread, I wasn't in the best shape. But now that you have the perspective to sit back and look at it, what would you say to fans to try to explain, like, sometimes. Cause when fans want to talk to me about this stuff, I'm just like, look, life happens, you know, you're in a beautiful fairy tale and one day that fairy tale starts to end. You can go home and sit at home, or you can just keep going and try to make it sort of work itself out.

[Simon Kirke]

I think it's a kind of a two or three pronged answer, because number one, what people maybe don't realize or tend to forget is that I really loved Mick and Boz and I didn't want to start another band with unknowns. Sure, we had a high platform, a high profile because of the success of Bad Company, but to go out and go with someone else and audition and start again. And I really loved Mick and Boz and I didn't want to start again. So when Brian Howe came on the horizon and he auditioned and he was pretty damn good, it kind of going back to what Bebe said, you have to like someone to live with them, especially on the road. And I was hoping that that piece of the jigsaw, Brian Howe, would fit with the other three. We hoped that it wasn't there from the get go, and it didn't. It kind of got worse as the years went by. And I don't want to speak ill of someone who's passed away, but we started butting heads and he started doing this monologue in the beginning of Bad Company, you know, bom, bom, bom, which is the piano intro. And he would take it for like three minutes and he'd go on this, like, political rant. I'd go, what the and at one point, I went boom on the bass, drums, and physically, you could see him jerk. He said, what was all that in the dressing room? Don't you use this band as a political forum. He was a little red around the neck, shall we say. And it just got worse and worse.

[Billy Corgan]

I love this stuff.

[Simon Kirke]

So, you know. You know, it's Spinal Taps.

[Billy Corgan]

It's. We're all in. We're all in Spinal Tap.

[Simon Kirke]

So we politely.

[Billy Corgan]

Different versions of Spinal Tap.

[Simon Kirke]

Yeah, we asked him to leave. He'd say he left. But we did ask him to leave. And it. It's a shame because I know that his heart was in the right place. And when someone passes away, particularly at a relatively young age, I felt for him and his family. Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

Plus, to be fair. Sorry, I don't. I don't know.

[Simon Kirke]

No, no.

[Billy Corgan]

But. But what I like to say in Communion is it's a tough gig.

[Simon Kirke]

Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

You know what I mean? You're trying to come in and follow Paul Rogers.

[Simon Kirke]

That's true. Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

And, oh, by the way, you're singing Paul Rogers vocals half the night.

[Simon Kirke]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

It's tough gig.

[Simon Kirke]

Well, also, he had this alliance with this producer called Terry Thomas, and they started writing all the songs. And we left Peter Grant because the whole Zeppelin Grant thing just dissolved. And we went with this other manager who managed Foreigner called Bud Prager.

[Billy Corgan]

Okay.

[Simon Kirke]

And Foreigner were enjoying this huge success, and Brian and Terry. Excuse me, started writing these pretty commercial songs that Foreigner could have done or Journey could have done. It wasn't. It was drifting further and further away from the original Bad Company. So Mick, being one of the prime writers of the original Bad Company, started getting left out in the cold.

[Billy Corgan]

That's crazy.

[Simon Kirke]

Which only exacerbated this distance between us three and Brian. And then Boz said this. I'm out. And he went. Because he. Do you remember that movie, the Commitments, where the horn player starts getting a bit jazzy? Instead of playing, like the staging, he's doing Charlie Parker. And all the others are going, okay, now, what's that? Boz started becoming like Stanley Clark and Jacko Pastoria. And instead of doing. What the Is that, Boss? He said, squire, I'm just learning, man. And it wasn't fitting with. Certainly not with Brian Air. And they started butting heads and the Spinal and. Yeah. And it was Spinal of that, so. So we languished. And then we got in Robert Hart, who was much more like Paul Rogers, great soul singer. But by then I was. I was well and truly. Yeah. And I checked myself into Rehab. Mick was having his own troubles and. And we just said, enough. That's it, enough. And that was middle of 90s. And then Paul Rogers came back in 1999.

[Billy Corgan]

I'm embarrassed to admit this, but. But I only knew the Bad Company version of I'm Ready for Love.

[Simon Kirke]

Oh.

[Billy Corgan]

I'd never heard the Mott version until not too long ago. And what's beautiful about that version, and I think the reason I didn't know it was Mott was because Mick sings it. He's got this beautiful voice. Ian comes in and sings kind of the B section.

[Simon Kirke]

Yeah. Right.

[Billy Corgan]

So God bless Mick. What a talent. It's.

[Simon Kirke]

I loved it.

[Billy Corgan]

Cool.

[Simon Kirke]

I really. I. I loved him the whole, whole life. And I've got to give a eulogy next week. We're having a memorial bash for him in Henley in Oxfordshire. Next week. I got to deliver a eulogy and Ian Hunter's eulogy that he's written. And we're going to play all the Motley Hoople and Bad Company song. It's going to be bittersweet.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah.

[Simon Kirke]

You know, because I miss the old. The old guy. But honestly, Billy, when someone has a stroke, as you know, the whole left side goes. And he couldn't talk. Or very, very basic. It was horrible to see him. And when I heard that he finally passed away, I was kind of relieved because he was in. He was in hell and getting all choked up now.

[Billy Corgan]

God bless him.

[Simon Kirke]

Yeah. But he left his mark, which is all we can ask of ourselves.

[Billy Corgan]

Well, the song, that's the beautiful thing, right?

[Simon Kirke]

Yeah. Oh, when we first turned Ready for love. Love. Paul said, you gotta hear this song that Nick wrote. I said, what? All the young dudes. No, no, no. Ready for love. And he played it on guitar. And a minor. He starts at A minor.

[Billy Corgan]

What a cool song.

[Simon Kirke]

Oh, I got. Wow. And every time we did it, every night, that and Shooting Star, I would get a little teary. So. Yeah. Great song.

[Billy Corgan]

I had the 45 for rock and Roll Fantasy. I just want to say the picture. Just. Okay. Okay. Two more things. Congratulations. Rock and Roll hall of Fame.

[Simon Kirke]

Thank you.

[Billy Corgan]

Well deserved.

[Simon Kirke]

Thank you. Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

And then you have this, I guess you call it tribute record coming out.

[Simon Kirke]

Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

These are not time specific. So we're floating in time. So by the time people see this, it'll probably be out, but it's. Can't get enough. But let me look at my list because it's a cool bunch of people you got on here. Oh, here we go. Hail storms on it. Paul Rogers is singing Too. Slash BlackBerry Smoke. The Struts, Joe and Phil of Def Leppard. Pretty Reckless. Nice lineup for a tribute record.

[Simon Kirke]

Well, I don't know some of them, I'll be honest.

[Billy Corgan]

Oh, really?

[Simon Kirke]

No. I've never heard of Pretty Reckless or Hardy.

[Billy Corgan]

Well, pretty reckless is Taylor Momson, incredible rock singer. Taylor was an actress, child actress that. That ended up following her passion into music. Great singer. And they. They've been. I think they've been the exclusive act opening for ACDC for the last couple years.

[Simon Kirke]

Wow. Okay.

[Billy Corgan]

So I saw them open for acdc, I think, in a stadium in Cologne. Not an easy gig. Open it for acdc, and they did a great job. So I think you'll be impressed with.

[Simon Kirke]

Oh, I want to check them out. Well, someone did send me Hardy and the Black Smoke. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I was knocked out. Look, every in. In interviews, I say, well, what do you think? I think it's great. I mean, it's an honor to be part of a tribe.

[Billy Corgan]

Well, the beautiful thing is the world we live in now is sometimes it takes younger people to connect younger fans to the older music, but once they find it, and I think you'd be hardened. We've just done a lot of touring over the last couple years, and I would say 60 to 70% of our audience is now under 25.

[Simon Kirke]

Wow.

[Billy Corgan]

Suddenly all these young kids, they want to see rock guitar, Rock. Played. Played by people who played rock music. So whatever that is is there now.

[Simon Kirke]

You know, and I'm not really blowing trumpets or whatever, but there's something about the music that we grew up in. We grew up with before computers came in. You know, it's. It had more soul. Nowadays, it's all drum loops and beats and auto tune. There's. It's a certain. There's a certain. I'm trying to think of the word. It's just not. It's not authentic. Literally, it's not authentic. AI is spreading its. Its poison, for want of a better word. But.

[Billy Corgan]

Oh, that's gonna. That's just gonna run. Well.

[Simon Kirke]

There's bands out now. The Velvet Sunset. Yeah. They don't exist. And they got 3 million Facebook followers, so.

[Billy Corgan]

But we had it good.

[Simon Kirke]

We. We had it good. We played with. With real. You know. Yeah. With fire in our bellies.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah. You know, I was trying to. Just as a way to finish it. I was thinking about the exact stuff you're talking about, and I was like, what's. What's the thing? What's the thing? And it's. It's. It's honestly, it's faith in the magic of music. Right?

[Simon Kirke]

Oh, that's good.

[Billy Corgan]

You know what I mean?

[Simon Kirke]

That's good.

[Billy Corgan]

I testified once in front of the US Congress about a rights issue I'd been asked by.

[Simon Kirke]

A what issue?

[Billy Corgan]

A music rights issue. Oh, music, yeah. It was 100-year-old old law that had never been fixed and it was screwing musicians out of money. And at one point one of the congress people who was obviously more in bed with the other side of the equation, let's call it anti musician, said to me, I don't understand why this is so important. And I said and well, if you listen to my girl, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. Okay. I said, any musician could go now and play that riff, play it more in tune and more in time. Why are people still listening to a 60 year old recording? Because that musician that day played it the way that touches people. And it's ultimately about rewarding those artists who get that lightning in a bottle very good. And not sort of leaving them behind because of the laws and stuff like that. And I said, so the fact that we're still listening to that guy play Dom tells you something that there's a value there. And I think it's the magic of that. And we were lucky because we grew up listening to Al Jackson and Smokey and Jimi Hendrix and whatever. And wow, when they made that magic, we're still like, we're still trying to figure out what they did.

[Simon Kirke]

I still remember seeing Jimmy at the Albert hall and he couldn't.

[Billy Corgan]

67.

[Simon Kirke]

Yeah, he couldn't tune his guitar. And he said, and Eric was in the audience. Eric, can you come and tune my guitar? And his G string. The G and B, as you know, are the crown jewels on the six, the strap. And they were flapping because he would slur like three frets and wonder why it was so flat when it came back to normal. But he managed. He was Jimi Hendrix for God's sake. And he couldn't tune his guitar. But he still remained remembered as.

[Billy Corgan]

One last question.

[Simon Kirke]

Go on.

[Billy Corgan]

Greatest drummer you ever saw live.

[Simon Kirke]

Buddy Rich.

[Billy Corgan]

Honestly, I mean, shocking talent, right?

[Simon Kirke]

Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

And he knew it, which is the best.

[Simon Kirke]

And I know and I met him a couple of times and. And I, I was just in awe of him. But yeah, he had that, that ball and chain around his leg that he was not a nice guy. But my God, what a player. And bonzo, you know, I saw Bon many, many times and he floored me with what he did. He was just.

[Billy Corgan]

I had dinner one night with Eddie Kramer, the great. The great producer. And he said, you know, Billy, people have been asking me for 50 years how you get that Bonzo drum sound, right? He goes, how about you just be him, right? You know what I mean? He goes, he was a big bear of a man. He knew how to hit the drums and he knew how to tune the goddamn drums.

[Simon Kirke]

But listen, I'll tell you a quick, quick story before you go. I was. I sat in with Jimmy when he was mixing coda.

[Billy Corgan]

Oh, wow.

[Simon Kirke]

Okay. So they. He had this lovely studio down in. In Berkshire. Berkshire. But. And I. I sat in and he was mixing. Cause, you know, he mixed and produced all the Zeppelin albums. And we're listening to Bonzo and thought, wow. Suddenly he brings up the ambient mics to Sennheiser or Neumann, those lovely Neumann mics instead of. It's like. So not. Not taking anything from Bonzo, but Jimmy's use of the ambient of the room mics would produce that really crunchy. The snare be in. That was that.

[Billy Corgan]

And.

[Simon Kirke]

And a lot of crazy. But Bonzo, oh, my God, what a drummer. He was just. He said, I want my drums to sound like cannons.

[Billy Corgan]

Well, he got there, all right. Thank you, Billy. Thank you, son.

[Simon Kirke]

God bless.

[Billy Corgan]

God bless.