Steve Vai | The Magnificent Others with Billy Corgan

Summary

Podcast Summary: Steve Vai | The Magnificent Others with Billy Corgan

Release Date: August 13, 2025
Host: Billy Corgan

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Introduction to the Conversation

In this engaging episode of The Magnificent Others, Billy Corgan hosts a profound dialogue featuring legendary guitarist Steve Vai alongside esteemed musicians Joe Satriani, Nuno Bettencourt, and Tosin Abasi. The discussion delves deep into the intricacies of mastering guitar artistry, the evolution of guitar music, and the personal journeys that have shaped these virtuosos.

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The Journey of Mastery: Practice, Passion vs. Discipline

Steve Vai and Joe Satriani initiate the conversation by reflecting on their rigorous practice routines. Vai shares his intense dedication during his formative years:

"When I started getting better, gives you a feeling of enthusiasm, self-respect, which I needed at the time." [02:04]

Joe Satriani contrasts his own practice regimen:

"I thought I was doing well at four." [03:01]

Steve Vai emphasizes the role of passion over discipline:

"Passion says you're gonna do this because you want to do it. It'll be challenges along the way, but there's never the thought of giving up or failing." [04:43]

The conversation underscores the importance of intrinsic motivation in achieving mastery, suggesting that while discipline can drive practice, passion sustains it without the associated struggle.

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Influential Guitarists: Admiration and Inspiration

Alan Holdsworth emerges as a central figure in Vai's list of guitar heroes. Vai articulates his profound respect for Holdsworth’s innovative approach:

"Alan Holdsworth... his way of approaching notes... his own vocabulary." [16:02]

The discussion transitions to Frank Zappa, where Vai recounts his early interactions and mentorship under Zappa:

"Frank was a special, special case... He would pull it out of you and use it as a color in his palette." [34:18]

Joe Satriani adds his admiration for guitarists like Wes Montgomery and Joe Pass, highlighting their intuitive and soulful playing styles:

"When I listened to you guys, it was... you just validate that there are ways to connect to the guitar that are beyond just technical prowess." [18:29]

These reflections illustrate how Vai and his peers draw inspiration from both technical mastery and emotional expressiveness in their musical influences.

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The Evolution of Guitar Music: From Shredding to Melody

The conversation navigates the transformation of guitar music from the shred-centric styles of the 80s to more melody-focused compositions. Vai advocates for the importance of melody in sustaining a performer's career:

"Shredding is fun. It's fine. But without melody, there's no shelf life in a performer's career." [12:28]

Tosin Abasi and Joe Satriani agree, emphasizing that technical skill must be complemented by melodic innovation to maintain relevance and emotional connection with audiences.

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The Industry’s Influence and Personal Choices: Whitesnake and Beyond

Vai recounts his tenure with Whitesnake and his decision to leave the band to pursue personal artistic fulfillment:

"We had great tours and made a couple of really great records. But... there's something in you that just says you have to do this." [70:20]

He reflects on the challenges of balancing commercial success with creative integrity, noting:

"You have to admit that your other bandmates had something to do with the success." [77:58]

This segment highlights the tension between industry demands and personal artistic aspirations, illustrating Vai's commitment to authenticity over fleeting fame.

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The Impact of G3 and Generation X

The discussion touches upon guitar-centric projects like G3 and Generation X, initiated by Joe Satriani and Steve Vai respectively. Vai explains the collaborative spirit behind Generation X:

"Generation X was something that I pulled together." [10:32]

Joe Satriani praises the camaraderie among elite guitarists:

"It's a mutual admiration society." [10:01]

Tosin Abasi adds that such collaborations foster innovation and push the boundaries of guitar music.

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Instrument Evolution: The Seven-String and the Hydra Guitar

Steve Vai discusses the evolution of guitar design, particularly the introduction of the seven-string guitar and his custom Hydra model:

"Hydra is a guitar that Ibanez built. It's wild looking... three necks... synthesizers, piezos." [85:32]

Vai expresses fascination with how these instruments expand the guitar's sonic possibilities, enabling musicians to explore new musical landscapes beyond traditional configurations.

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Personal Reflections: Creativity and Integrity

The conversation delves into the intrinsic motivations that drive these guitarists. Vai shares his epiphany about composition at a young age:

"If you understand how to write or navigate this language, you will have control over vast ideas." [21:12]

Joe Satriani echoes the sentiment, emphasizing the importance of playing authentically:

"I learned how to play whatever I could feel whenever I felt it." [50:05]

These insights reveal a shared belief in following one's creative instincts to achieve meaningful artistic expression.

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Diversions and Hobbies: Beekeeping

Shifting gears, Vai introduces his passion for beekeeping, highlighting its role as a calming and ecologically vital hobby:

"Honeybees are incredible pollinators... they make honey and are vital for the environment." [78:10]

The discussion touches on challenges like colony collapse disorder and Vai's personal experiences with maintaining hives, offering a glimpse into the multifaceted lives of these musicians beyond their musical pursuits.

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Final Thoughts and Notable Quotes

As the conversation wraps up, the participants share final reflections on their musical journeys and the state of guitar music. Vai concludes with a philosophical take on individual artistry:

"Everyone is a genius when they find what they love and throw themselves into it without any excuses." [36:55]

Joe Satriani adds:

"Happiness is the preeminent energy that we're after here." [70:19]

These closing remarks encapsulate the essence of the discussion: the pursuit of passion, the balance between technical skill and emotional expressiveness, and the enduring love for the guitar as a universal instrument.

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Conclusion

This episode of The Magnificent Others offers a deep dive into the minds of some of the guitar world's most influential figures. Through candid conversations and insightful anecdotes, listeners gain a richer understanding of the dedication, creativity, and personal choices that define artistic greatness. The inclusion of notable quotes with timestamps enriches the narrative, providing key highlights that underscore the themes of passion, innovation, and the relentless pursuit of musical excellence.

Transcript

[Steve Vai]

We wore the most outlandish clothes. The stage was like the size of a football field. You know, you just run as fast as you.

[Joe Satriani]

I remember you guys just. There seemed to be a lot of.

[Steve Vai]

Running, running, running, running. It was fantastic.

[Joe Satriani]

You've always struck me as somebody who didn't quite find yourself in the given modalities.

[Nuno Bettencourt]

Yeah.

[Steve Vai]

Does that make sense? I never felt good enough to be in, you know, like, those guys.

[Joe Satriani]

You're in an elite class of people to have a bunch of guys sit there and wait for you to just play your guitar.

[Steve Vai]

For some reason, I was into the weird, you know, kind of abilities to play these hard melodies. I'm reluctant to mention it. I never really say it, but I guess it's time. I could.

[Joe Satriani]

Thank you very much for being here.

[Steve Vai]

Thank you for the invite.

[Joe Satriani]

So tell me if you don't like the analogy, but. And it comes from seeing you. Was the tour the Generation acts. I saw that in Dallas. I didn't know if he knew I was there that night.

[Steve Vai]

No.

[Joe Satriani]

I went backstage and I talked to. I think I saw Nuno, but I didn't really see anybody. I didn't want to bother anybody, but it comes from watching this thing that you guys would do on stage. And I'll get to that in a second. But I love the analogy. And it's off. Used. It's the idea of, like, guitarist. As gunslingers, you know, this idea of, like, you know, the Sergio Leone. So. And I'm not saying you're someone who prides himself as being, like, the fastest gun in the West. I've never gotten that feeling from you. In fact, I've read where you've sort of dissuaded people from focusing too much on that. Is that fair?

[Steve Vai]

Well, I would say so. I like having facility. It's a challenge to keep up.

[Tosin Abasi]

Yeah.

[Steve Vai]

You know?

[Joe Satriani]

Okay, so let me start there. How do you keep it up at your age? Because I'm 57 and I've been playing 40 years, and at some point the joints start to go like, take it easy, buddy.

[Steve Vai]

Yeah, we're kind of like. I don't know why, but when I was younger, I chose the route of being fascinated by chops.

[Tosin Abasi]

Okay.

[Steve Vai]

You know, so it was an interesting discovery, and it was just something as simple as, look, if you sit down and just practice, you get better. And when I started getting better, gives you a feeling of enthusiasm, self respect, which I needed at the time.

[Tosin Abasi]

Okay.

[Steve Vai]

So that it becomes sort of like an addiction. So for me now, practicing endlessly is not for everybody. It's only for those that are pull. That have a pull to do it.

[Tosin Abasi]

Yeah.

[Steve Vai]

You know, like, you can't. You can try to force it, but if it doesn't feel natural to you to want to.

[Joe Satriani]

So in a normal day, what would have been a practice amount of time?

[Steve Vai]

Well, my schedule back then, I was happy if I got nine hours a day.

[Joe Satriani]

I thought I was doing well at four.

[Steve Vai]

That is good. Four hours a day is great.

[Joe Satriani]

Nine is like, wow.

[Steve Vai]

I was very neurotic. Very.

[Joe Satriani]

That's a good word.

[Steve Vai]

Yeah. Myopic. You know, because once I discovered this and, you know, this is what, age.

[Joe Satriani]

Just so we can.

[Steve Vai]

12, 13, 14.

[Joe Satriani]

Age. That's a very early age to go that deep in onset.

[Steve Vai]

Well, I started going deeper in, like, 13.

[Tosin Abasi]

Okay.

[Joe Satriani]

But still, most kids at 13 are thinking about a lot of other stuff, you know?

[Nuno Bettencourt]

Yeah.

[Steve Vai]

I just. It just had such a pull, such an attract, such an interest, such a joy, such a.

[Joe Satriani]

Was it the exploration or was it the discipline?

[Steve Vai]

Well, the funny thing was it didn't feel like discipline.

[Tosin Abasi]

Okay.

[Steve Vai]

You know, discipline. I'm not. People say you must have been very disciplined. You know, and sometimes I would try to. I would go to sleep early on a Friday so I could wake up and practice all the way till Monday when I had to go to school. So I get like 20, 30 hours. And people say we must have been very disciplined, and I'm not a very disciplined person that way.

[Tosin Abasi]

Okay.

[Steve Vai]

You know, passion. It was a passion, and you understand this. And because passion is a much more powerful engine of creation than discipline. You know, discipline implies you have to fight something. You have to push yourself to do something that you don't really want to do, you know, but you got to do it. But. But passion says you're gonna do this because you want to do it. It'll be challenges along the way, but there's never the thought of giving up or failing.

[Joe Satriani]

Because it's in your heart.

[Steve Vai]

Yeah, it's in your heart. It's like a little secret that you create with yourself.

[Joe Satriani]

So playing along with my gunslinger image, who would be a gunslinger that you would not want to face out on the dusky?

[Steve Vai]

Oh, geez. It happens all the time.

[Joe Satriani]

Well, I've seen it and getting there, but I'm saying just throw out a name that somebody that you like would think, like, oh, that guy. Is that. That guy on the draw is hard to beat.

[Steve Vai]

Oh, well, there's.

[Joe Satriani]

There's all in good fun, obviously.

[Steve Vai]

Yeah, sure. Well, you know, when you're in the situation and if you have the confidence and you. You decide that, well, I can only do the best I can do, then you're. You're free. You're clear. But there's. There's guys that, if I was standing next to, I'd be like, you know, if Alan Holdsworth was, you know, I'd be like, okay, wait a minute, folks. Yeah, I don't know if I could.

[Joe Satriani]

You know, the reason I thought of this analogy in speaking with you was when I saw you guys in Dallas, and I don't remember the song you guys were playing, but you were out there with yngvie and you guys were kind of doing a trading back and forth thing. Do you remember the song you guys would do it on?

[Steve Vai]

Black Star? I think it's.

[Joe Satriani]

Yeah, I think it's. Yeah, right. That makes sense. Right? It's kind of a halftime, like.

[Nuno Bettencourt]

Yeah, right. Yeah.

[Joe Satriani]

And you and Yngwie were having a lot of fun going back and forth.

[Nuno Bettencourt]

Yeah.

[Joe Satriani]

And he played this one run, and he did some. I. I can't even describe it other than he started here and he ended up here.

[Steve Vai]

And it's kind of hard to describe those things he does.

[Joe Satriani]

I mean, it was so. It was so. It was probably the greatest 10 seconds of guitar playing I've ever seen in my life. And. And. And then, you know, he does his thing, and like a gunslinger, he puts this thing, and you're supposed to go, yeah. And you literally went like, I'm taking this.

[Steve Vai]

And I did that a few times.

[Joe Satriani]

With him, and I didn't know if it was a shtick or whatever, but. So I actually went back and found the clip, it's on YouTube somehow, of that show in that moment. And I was like, okay, is this moment as good as I thought it was? And it was. It was some sort of crazy moment where it's like somehow in that. All those years and all that discipline and then obviously standing across from you and you guys having a little bit of fun jousting.

[Nuno Bettencourt]

Yeah.

[Joe Satriani]

And that sort of beautiful moment of like, wow. Yeah, two gunslingers. And he got you good. Because you literally just go, okay, I'm done.

[Steve Vai]

Sure.

[Nuno Bettencourt]

Yeah.

[Steve Vai]

Because, you know, Yngwie is a special, special case.

[Joe Satriani]

He very much is.

[Steve Vai]

I. I loved the idea of being able to shred, as they say, and I honed that skill. But Yngwie, when he hit the scene, it was a different kind of a shred.

[Joe Satriani]

He all drove us back to our. To our practice.

[Nuno Bettencourt]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Steve Vai]

He. He let us know what.

[Joe Satriani]

I was like, what is Phrygian, you know, it was like, suddenly, I care about the Phrygian scale because of Yngwie.

[Steve Vai]

That's Yngwie, the Phrygian scale. But he. He had a different kind of approach from. From the germination of his interest. And that was violin playing.

[Joe Satriani]

Yeah, Paganini.

[Steve Vai]

So Paganini and stuff. So his inner ear was hearing that kind of thing, which is not very. In a sense, it's not as guitaristic as somebody listening to Jimmy Page or that kind of thing. And when we get up on the stage together and we're trading like that, it's really. It's a great moment, you know, because Yngwie, you know, standing with another musician and actually trading licks like we do and I do with all the G3 Generation act, all this kind of thing, you know, it requires listening very intently and then responding in a way that, you know, is appropriate. And with guys like Yngwie, you can't compete. You know, like, if I'm with Joe Satriani or any of these guys, you can't compete with the best of them. They force you, if you're smart, to compete with the best of you, you know, Like, I. Yeah, I have to be more Steve Vai, that weird, quirky guy, than I have been before. When, you know, somebody does something that's the top of their game. So it's a wonderful opportunity. So when Ing Be does his, you know, that monstrous kind of rift, what is that? It's his. It's his thing, you know, I think, you know, it's part of the show, you know, because it's fun. Because I can't. I don't do that.

[Tosin Abasi]

Yeah.

[Steve Vai]

But standing next to Yngwie will compel me or Joe or anybody. It compels you to reach into your taste.

[Joe Satriani]

I know there's various versions of it, G3, and I can never think of the name Generation X. Was that your brainchild or whose brainchild was that?

[Steve Vai]

G3 was Joe Satriani, and Generation X was something that I pulled together.

[Joe Satriani]

What I like about it is a fan of guitar playing and guitar players is that it shows that there's an esteemed club that you can reach. And yet there's a special camaraderie that goes on with players of that level. I don't consider myself in that league. I can play, but that's a different level. And it's so cool to see this sort of like a mutual admiration society.

[Nuno Bettencourt]

Yeah.

[Joe Satriani]

Because guitar playing at that level is kind of a lonely thing. And in the world that you and I grew up in, it was more of a.

[Steve Vai]

There's a niche.

[Joe Satriani]

Well, it was also, I'm better than you.

[Steve Vai]

There's a lot of that.

[Joe Satriani]

There was a lot of like I had to beat again, the gunslinger thing. I have to beat you because if I can't beat you, I don't win whatever game I'm after over here.

[Nuno Bettencourt]

Yeah.

[Joe Satriani]

I think the game's changed in the last 10, 15 years where there's sort of more suppleness in the market for like, hey, there's a lot to learn and a lot to enjoy and it doesn't have to be defined by ego or who's the best.

[Steve Vai]

Well, it's a crazy kind of a perspective because as you know, it's all subjective and the, the best may exist in things like sports.

[Tosin Abasi]

Yeah.

[Steve Vai]

You know, but for instance, in the, in the shredder world back then, even more so now in the underground, there's evolution, you know, of the way these people are playing.

[Joe Satriani]

When I saw you guys play, it was. I can never say his name right? Abbasi.

[Steve Vai]

Tosin. Tosin Abbasi.

[Joe Satriani]

I mean all those. Yeah, totally. From a different world than we grew up in.

[Nuno Bettencourt]

Yeah.

[Joe Satriani]

And bringing in a whole new language, a whole new. Even the guitar, the instruments, everything.

[Steve Vai]

Tosin's contribution to, to the formula was fantastic.

[Tosin Abasi]

Yeah.

[Steve Vai]

But the, the enduring feature of anybody that plays an instrument is going to be tied at the hip with the effective effectiveness of, of their melody.

[Tosin Abasi]

Okay.

[Steve Vai]

There has to be, you know, there has to be melody.

[Tosin Abasi]

Yeah.

[Steve Vai]

Shredding is fun. It's fine.

[Joe Satriani]

Well, eight year old kids are playing Eruption now, so.

[Nuno Bettencourt]

Yeah.

[Joe Satriani]

So you, you're. That is the distinguishing factor.

[Nuno Bettencourt]

Yeah.

[Joe Satriani]

Props really are not, they're not less meaningful, but they're not meaningful in the way that they were at one point because it was a, it was an elite club who could play at that level.

[Nuno Bettencourt]

Yeah.

[Joe Satriani]

Now so many people can play at.

[Steve Vai]

That level and, and beyond and, and I can tell you how to become a virtuoso very easily.

[Joe Satriani]

Okay, tell me. Yeah, I'm still after it.

[Nuno Bettencourt]

Yeah.

[Steve Vai]

You have to practice non stop and practice perfectly and you have to practice fast and you have to get, have bulletproof intonation. And this is a intellectual exercise. And when I was younger, that's what I did. I set the clock and I set the metronome. There wasn't a lot of melody involved, you know, but luckily for me, I was a huge fan. Like 70s top 40. I love melody. Melody.

[Tosin Abasi]

Yeah.

[Steve Vai]

So the, the ability to shred is fine and good, but without melody, it. There's no shelf life in a. In a performer's career. I'll even say that.

[Tosin Abasi]

Yeah.

[Joe Satriani]

I just. I wanted to ask you. I. I didn't think to ask it, but it made sense to me in the context. Who's the greatest guitar player that you've stood there and watched and thought, my God, that's just like. That's the mountain for me personally.

[Nuno Bettencourt]

Yeah.

[Steve Vai]

Alan Holdsworth.

[Tosin Abasi]

Right.

[Nuno Bettencourt]

Yeah.

[Joe Satriani]

Can you break that down a bit? Because. Sorry. Growing up in the generation that I did. Okay. I'm in the guitar magazines. I'm reading about you. You know what I mean? I'm hearing all these things, and everybody would talk about Holdsworth like he was this kind of spinning deity, but as a kid, you go grab that record and you put it on and I think. I don't really.

[Steve Vai]

No, as a kid, it was Jimmy. Oops, sorry.

[Joe Satriani]

But I'm saying, for me, Holdsworth still remains a bit of a cipher. Like, I certainly understand the influence and the technical mastery involved and, like, even the fluidity in his playing, if that's a fair thing to say. But I'm saying I never found that emotional connection to his work.

[Steve Vai]

Yeah. There's a. It's more of a intellectualized sophistication, sophisticated listening.

[Tosin Abasi]

Okay.

[Steve Vai]

And it. For me, it tickles a particular part of my brain because it encompasses all of these elements. Like Alan, the thing that I love most about him and when I was a kid, it was Jimmy Page. Sure, Jimmy Page. Jimmy Page. By the way, if anybody wants to know, Jimmy Page, is it.

[Joe Satriani]

Was it the mystique in the whole thing or like the.

[Steve Vai]

The way he.

[Tosin Abasi]

The.

[Steve Vai]

The choices of riffs, the way he played them. The mystique.

[Tosin Abasi]

Yeah.

[Steve Vai]

The fact that he produced that stuff.

[Joe Satriani]

His no choices were supreme.

[Steve Vai]

Oh, my God, it was.

[Joe Satriani]

He played so much cool stuff.

[Steve Vai]

Such cool stuff and with such an attitude and such a mystique and such a class act. I don't know if you follow his Instagram.

[Tosin Abasi]

Oh, I do. Yeah.

[Steve Vai]

It's fantastic.

[Tosin Abasi]

Yeah.

[Steve Vai]

It's like. There's his book, you know, he's telling us everything.

[Joe Satriani]

Well, you really see, the literacy is not the right word. You see, there's an intellectual drive in Jimmy that goes beyond.

[Nuno Bettencourt]

Yeah.

[Joe Satriani]

Like, let's call it the rock mystique of Jimmy.

[Nuno Bettencourt]

Yeah.

[Joe Satriani]

The real Jimmy coming out of studio system, being a studio player, learning what he learned and figuring out what he figured out in many ways before other people did.

[Nuno Bettencourt]

Yeah.

[Joe Satriani]

Including the people he kind of copiously copped. From.

[Nuno Bettencourt]

Yeah.

[Joe Satriani]

But he put it in this stew that was very singular.

[Steve Vai]

Yeah.

[Tosin Abasi]

He.

[Steve Vai]

He has had it all.

[Joe Satriani]

His mind is incredible.

[Nuno Bettencourt]

Yeah.

[Steve Vai]

But someone like Alan Holdsworth is more like a. Or Jeff Beck, even. Totally different worlds, but they're craftsmen. Alan Holdsworth, the reason why I'm so attracted to him, because his musical mind is unique in that. So, for instance, when I moved out to California in 1980, I was doing transcriptions to make a couple of bucks, and he called me, and he was writing a book on his wild chords.

[Tosin Abasi]

Okay.

[Steve Vai]

Because he played those crazy, crazy things. But Alan didn't really know traditional music.

[Tosin Abasi]

Okay.

[Steve Vai]

He had his own vocabulary. He had his own way of constructing, you know, chords. His own understanding of how they go on the neck.

[Tosin Abasi]

Okay.

[Joe Satriani]

That helps me understand him a little bit, because I could never understand why someone of your caliber would sort of point at him. And even Eddie Van Halen would talk about Holzwart.

[Nuno Bettencourt]

Yeah.

[Steve Vai]

So this is just his musical mind.

[Joe Satriani]

Sure.

[Steve Vai]

So he didn't even understand how to translate that into conventional notation to write this book. So that's what I was helping him with. But in the process, I got to recognize a person who was almost like if you left people on a desert island, you know what I mean, and just gave him a couple of tools and the real brilliant ones. Build things.

[Tosin Abasi]

Yeah.

[Steve Vai]

That's what Alan did. And. But it. So his way of approaching notes. Now, to a lot of people, it sounds like crazy notes going around the place, but if you're into connecting the musical dots of music theory and melody.

[Tosin Abasi]

Yeah.

[Steve Vai]

I'll. I'll use the word jazz. It's not quite relatable, but jazz is, like, formulaic in that this is the chord, and these are the notes you can use.

[Tosin Abasi]

Yeah.

[Steve Vai]

And by the way, the next chord comes in the next bar, and it's totally different. And now you can use this.

[Tosin Abasi]

Sure.

[Steve Vai]

So insipid jazz playing is people who know the chords and the arpeggios and they just. And then what you hear is gripping arpeggios, but there's no soul in it.

[Tosin Abasi]

Yeah.

[Steve Vai]

There's no. The. The mind. It's. It's more mental than actually coming from a soulful place.

[Joe Satriani]

Math.

[Steve Vai]

And that's fine. You know, that's a process.

[Joe Satriani]

Yeah.

[Steve Vai]

But someone like Alan or a great jazz player who doesn't even know any.

[Joe Satriani]

Jazz player you love.

[Steve Vai]

Oh, Wes. Wes Montgomery.

[Tosin Abasi]

Yeah.

[Joe Satriani]

You know, my dad saw him once.

[Steve Vai]

Yeah.

[Joe Satriani]

60S. That was a guitar player in.

[Steve Vai]

Yeah, I know.

[Joe Satriani]

He said. He said, thank you. See, he said what blew his mind? He Said it was just a club gig. And he said it was just him on a stool and he said he just couldn't believe what was coming out of this one, man.

[Nuno Bettencourt]

Yeah, that happened.

[Joe Satriani]

Even 30 years later. He would talk about seeing Wes Montgomery like with a certain awe.

[Nuno Bettencourt]

Yeah.

[Joe Satriani]

Like, I know how to play guitar, but I couldn't do that. No.

[Steve Vai]

Yeah, that, that, that happened to me when I watched Joe Pass play.

[Tosin Abasi]

Okay.

[Steve Vai]

Or Alan.

[Tosin Abasi]

Yeah.

[Joe Satriani]

Have you ever heard that? Beautiful. It's Joe Pass and the pianist Oscar Peterson.

[Steve Vai]

Oh, yeah.

[Joe Satriani]

They do Porgy and Bess.

[Nuno Bettencourt]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Joe Satriani]

And. And Oscar's playing harpsichord for some reason. Unique.

[Steve Vai]

And interestingly enough, Joe Pass didn't know much about music at all.

[Joe Satriani]

That's so funny.

[Steve Vai]

Yeah, it's all here. Yeah, that's why he's so inspired.

[Joe Satriani]

We played once with George lynch from Dawkin and we were sound checking at what used to be Universal. And I said something, and I know basic music theory, but I said something and he said, I don't know the notes. And I thought, how can you play like that? He said, I literally just figured out where I wanted to go and that's the way I play.

[Steve Vai]

Ah.

[Joe Satriani]

You know, like he, he never, like, he just learned, like, if I play here, that feels right.

[Tosin Abasi]

And.

[Nuno Bettencourt]

Yeah.

[Joe Satriani]

So all his playing was completely instinctive.

[Nuno Bettencourt]

Yeah.

[Joe Satriani]

And obviously had the gift to express it. So when you do meet people like that, and I've met a few, it's. It's sort of. It's humbling. It's like there's sort of music untamed in a way.

[Nuno Bettencourt]

Yeah.

[Steve Vai]

I've met many people like that.

[Tosin Abasi]

Yeah.

[Steve Vai]

They're not. They don't really retain theory information, but they just own it.

[Joe Satriani]

Maybe it's a different brain.

[Tosin Abasi]

Right.

[Steve Vai]

Yeah, it's a. Yeah.

[Tosin Abasi]

Yeah.

[Joe Satriani]

So you talked about playing as a kid and I'm sure it's been off explored because you've been interviewed so many times. But when you, when you're. I guess what I'm after is. And I give the idea in reverse. It's not fair. But you've always struck me as somebody who. It maybe took time because I realize it's not one moment, but you kind of had to figure out your own way that the ways presented to you weren't like. It's not that they weren't satisfying, they weren't you. And then over time you created almost like hybridity.

[Steve Vai]

I think you nailed it.

[Joe Satriani]

Okay, great. So at 13, 14, obviously you're like, I love Led Zeppelin or something. But where it's where in there did you start to see, like, I like that. But I've got this other thing because, you know, in 18, you're, you know, you're talking to Frank Zappa, like. Yeah, take me at least a little bit. How you sort of recognize that there's this other voice in me that I have to figure out. Because standard rock and roll presentation of the guitar circa 1973 was. Well, you can be like Jimi Hendrix, or he could be like Jimmy Page, or he could be like Jeff Beck. But you've always struck me as somebody who didn't quite find yourself in the given modalities.

[Nuno Bettencourt]

Yeah.

[Steve Vai]

I never felt good enough to be in, you know, like, those guys.

[Joe Satriani]

But obviously it wasn't a chops issue, so.

[Steve Vai]

No, I think for me, I was more interested in composing before I started playing the guitar. I was probably about 5, 6 years old when I. I hit a piano for the first time.

[Tosin Abasi]

Yeah.

[Steve Vai]

And I realized the notes go higher and lower and. And had, like, a little epiphany.

[Tosin Abasi]

Yeah.

[Steve Vai]

And it was. If you understand how to write or navigate this language, you will have control over vast ideas. And. And this was. That was. It lit me up. And the biggest inspiration came when my parents brought home west side Story.

[Tosin Abasi]

Right.

[Steve Vai]

That was historical orchestration with Bernstein and Stephen Sondheim. Great melody, great story. Gangs in it and tension and love interests and resolve and, you know, all this great stuff. So. And I was 4, you know, so that was what I really knew I wanted to do was compose. So I had this high information and I started studying at a very early age.

[Joe Satriani]

Seeing your guitar life through the prism of a composer first makes so much more sense in that almost, for me, it gives a missing piece to your story that I never quite understood.

[Nuno Bettencourt]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Joe Satriani]

Whenever I would look at you as a public figure. And I've been a fan, and we'll get to that in a second. But there'd always be this piece missing. But I didn't see it as a character defect or something. I just didn't understand.

[Nuno Bettencourt]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Joe Satriani]

Because you're of all the famed guitar players in the world that could go and literally sell out a show with you just playing the guitar. Nobody's singing. You know, you're in an elite class of people. To have a bunch of guys sit there and wait for you to just play more guitar. You as composer sort of helps me understand that because. Because you didn't fall in these conventional lanes as presented circa 1984. Like, he's this or he's that or he's this or that.

[Steve Vai]

I had enough of an interest. Well, I had a huge once. Once I heard Led Zeppelin when I was 12. And then that Queen, Deep Purple, Black Sabbath, the whole. And then fusion, Aldemeola. So. And then once I heard Frank.

[Tosin Abasi]

Yeah.

[Steve Vai]

He was doing what I loved the most because he was mixing all these things. Sure. He was taking the compositional interest and mixing it with all. All sorts of.

[Joe Satriani]

Were you. Were you. This is just a sort of weird fetish question, but were you also attracted to his kind of anti guitar guitar stance? You know what I mean by that? Does that translate or you want me to.

[Steve Vai]

Well, give.

[Joe Satriani]

Well, he. My father loved Zappo.

[Steve Vai]

Oh, okay.

[Joe Satriani]

He was one of those people would go try to see Frank every time he was in town. And for all I know, he saw you play with Frank. But. And I never really understood because Zappa seemed outside his normal orbit. My father loved R B. My father loved Jimi Hendrix. And kind of what you'd expect, you know, didn't really like hard rock, per se. And then Zappa sort of sits on the side of this whole thing, you know, as a sort of a. Yeah. Like he's a star, but he doesn't act like a star in the conventional way. He was dismissive of star systems.

[Steve Vai]

Yes.

[Joe Satriani]

So I'm saying.

[Steve Vai]

I get what you mean.

[Joe Satriani]

And even. Even calling an album shut up and play your guitar. It's like. It's very Frank Zappa. Like. Like, yeah, I'm gonna play endless, copious amounts of guitar, but I'm also gonna sort of make fun of the whole thing at the same time.

[Nuno Bettencourt]

Yeah.

[Joe Satriani]

I'm saying, was that also attractive to you in a particular way?

[Steve Vai]

Well, at that age, you know, when I discovered Frank, he had such a powerful personality. He was so fiercely confident. And also an explosion of freedom. I mean, Frank, it was remarkable. So I was. I was. I started working for him when I was 18.

[Tosin Abasi]

18.

[Steve Vai]

And then joined the band when I was 20.

[Joe Satriani]

Let me stop you there one quick. Because this was one of my questions. How do you write Frank Zapp at 18? Is it like an address you can send. Send something to.

[Steve Vai]

It's a. I was 16, and I'm in my little teenage bedroom, practicing, practicing. All those friends come over, they're trying to pull me out.

[Joe Satriani]

Let's go. Let's go to the sock hop. And.

[Nuno Bettencourt]

Yeah.

[Steve Vai]

And one of my friends came in and he had. Stole a Rolodex, because that's how you used to get Phone. Phone number.

[Tosin Abasi]

The old.

[Steve Vai]

From a studio in New York City.

[Joe Satriani]

And it Had Frank.

[Steve Vai]

It had not just Frank. I mean, I'm sitting there practicing, going, look, Mick Jagger. I'm like, oh, cool. You know, I got this pep in atar. I'm like, great. And then he gets to disease, and he says, oh. And I have Frank Zappa's home phone number. And I went, you have what? You know. And I tried calling at 16. At. At 16.

[Tosin Abasi]

Okay.

[Joe Satriani]

Did anyone answer?

[Steve Vai]

Yes, his wife answered.

[Tosin Abasi]

Gail.

[Steve Vai]

Gail. And oddly enough, when I knowing Gail, the way I know her now, the fact that she took the phone call and actually said. Because I'm like, you know, I'm just a fan. I got your phone number with the 60. Can I talk to Frank? Yeah.

[Joe Satriani]

And I talked to Frank.

[Nuno Bettencourt]

Yeah.

[Steve Vai]

And she said, well, Frank's on tour. Call back in six months. So I did. Well, Frank's on tour again. Call back in another six months. And I did that three times until I was 18. And I was at my friend's apartment at Berkeley. I was going to Berkeley. And Frank answered the phone.

[Joe Satriani]

Oh, my gosh.

[Steve Vai]

And he was so nice. I caught him at a good time, and he gave me his address because I told him I knew the secret. I knew he was looking for Edgar Verese scores.

[Joe Satriani]

That was his big.

[Nuno Bettencourt]

Yeah.

[Joe Satriani]

And the Big on Varaise.

[Tosin Abasi]

Yeah.

[Steve Vai]

Big on Varese. And the Boston Public Library had those scores. So I Xerox him. I say, hey, Frank, I'd love to send you these scores. And I said, I have a transcription of the Black Page. And I said, and I have a tape in my band. And oddly enough, he said, well, just send it directly to the house. And he gave me his home address, and I mailed it, and that's how it started.

[Tosin Abasi]

Wow.

[Joe Satriani]

So you walk through Frank Zappa's door, 18 years old, and so the job is, you're going to transcribe his world or.

[Steve Vai]

Yeah, he wanted me to audition for the band. And then I. When I told him I was 18, he said, forget it. But I had sent him this transcription.

[Joe Satriani]

Was he worried about a maturity issue?

[Steve Vai]

I think so. 18. Can you imagine? Like, in that band?

[Joe Satriani]

I can. Yeah, I can.

[Nuno Bettencourt]

You can, yeah.

[Steve Vai]

But Frank's touring regime. I'll tell it to you one of these days. It's. It's. It was rough, you know.

[Tosin Abasi]

Okay.

[Steve Vai]

So I had transcribed this very complex piece of music.

[Joe Satriani]

It's like the most infamous.

[Nuno Bettencourt]

Yeah.

[Joe Satriani]

Zappa composition of all time, right?

[Steve Vai]

Yes. The Black.

[Joe Satriani]

And that's kind of how Bozio got the gig too, or something, right?

[Steve Vai]

He learned how to play it.

[Nuno Bettencourt]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Steve Vai]

So. So Frank asked me to transcribe some of his guitar solos. So I said, sure, and I did it. And he was so impressed that he hired me to transcribe guitar solos.

[Joe Satriani]

What would be the point of a solo being transcribed? Would he want people to learn it or.

[Steve Vai]

Well, a couple.

[Joe Satriani]

But he saw it as a compositional.

[Steve Vai]

Well, he thought it was fascinating. And he thought it would be great to release a book with these transcriptions, which he did, which is kind of.

[Joe Satriani]

Ahead of its time, if you really think about it.

[Steve Vai]

Yeah. Because the transcriptions are unreadable. I mean, they're so intensely complex, you know. And so he also, back in those days, in order to copyright a song, you had to send the lead sheet to Washington.

[Joe Satriani]

I remember.

[Steve Vai]

So they have it or a cassette.

[Joe Satriani]

Library of Congress, right?

[Steve Vai]

Yes, Library of Congress.

[Joe Satriani]

We did that like 88.

[Nuno Bettencourt]

Yes.

[Steve Vai]

So back then, Frank had to do it, too. So one of my jobs was to go through his entire catalog and make sure there was at least lead sheets for everything. So I was doing that. And then there was things that he wanted me to transcribe, like the entire Roxy record, head to toe, every instrument. So I. I did that. And that's good for him to have to then say okay to a band, you know, here, learn this. You know? And then he had me do. Probably one of the most challenging was to create a full score of Gregory Peccary. That's a very obtuse piece of music that's like 45 minutes long, that has the. The kitchen sink in it. And so that was the kind of transcription work I did.

[Joe Satriani]

Okay, so when he. When he first saw you kind of play guitar, what. What. What did he say?

[Steve Vai]

Okay, so let me say the first time he lit, he heard in the cassette I sent.

[Joe Satriani]

But I'm saying. Okay, but is there a point where you jam in front of him or you guys play or you audition?

[Steve Vai]

I mean, Frank wasn't.

[Tosin Abasi]

He.

[Steve Vai]

He wasn't very generous with compliments.

[Joe Satriani]

I'd heard that, you know.

[Nuno Bettencourt]

Yeah.

[Steve Vai]

So. But the first. One of. The first things I recorded for him was one of the guitar solos I transcribed.

[Tosin Abasi]

Okay.

[Steve Vai]

It was like a six minute. And I. I doubled his guitar. Every note, every scratch, every. Everything in one pass.

[Tosin Abasi]

Yeah.

[Steve Vai]

Because I didn't realize at the time what punching in was. I thought I had to do it all.

[Joe Satriani]

That's pretty impressive.

[Steve Vai]

One pass. And I got to the house, and Frank wasn't in a very good mood because he just got back from the dentist.

[Tosin Abasi]

Okay.

[Steve Vai]

And I'm this kid. I'm 20, you know, 20 years old, and I'm doing this impossible thing. And to me, it's like, you're gonna get this right?

[Tosin Abasi]

Yeah.

[Steve Vai]

You're gonna do this. So I'm playing through it, and out of my peripheral, I see Frank was throwing his head back, which I come to find out later. That's when Frank's really interested and he's laughing. When something's so wild to him, he just goes, you know.

[Tosin Abasi]

Yeah.

[Steve Vai]

So I thought he was laughing because I. I was blowing it or something.

[Joe Satriani]

Oh, I see.

[Steve Vai]

And when it was done, I thought, okay, well, I'm out of here, you know? And Frank picks up the phone and says. He calls Gail. And he goes, gail, come down here. You have to see this. So that was.

[Joe Satriani]

Have you repeat it?

[Steve Vai]

Oh, yeah, I did it a couple of times. I doubled it, actually, on the record. It's. I think it's doubled.

[Joe Satriani]

That's correct.

[Nuno Bettencourt]

Yeah.

[Steve Vai]

And so that. But there was one other time it was very interesting, you know, Frank expected you to play the right notes.

[Tosin Abasi]

Okay.

[Steve Vai]

And he gave me some parts that were pretty challenging on guitar. And there was this one song called Montana. And he had never really had anybody play these obtuse melodies, you know, all this crazy. It's not written.

[Joe Satriani]

He actually played them himself, or he would write them.

[Steve Vai]

Frank was more of a visceral soloist. He would give all these.

[Joe Satriani]

So this is strictly a. He's composed this thing. And now it's like, here.

[Nuno Bettencourt]

Yeah.

[Steve Vai]

Yeah. That was the majority of the stuff, the crazy stuff.

[Joe Satriani]

I never thought about it that way, but it makes sense to me.

[Steve Vai]

Yeah. And. And Billy, he would write it on piano. It doesn't make any sense on guitar, you know, So I was doing Montana, and it was the first. It was the first show. And Frank didn't know how I was going to be able to deliver all this very complex music on stage and get it right. But, you know, in the back of my mind, I was so bulletproof, confident, cocky, you know, it's like scared to death around Frank. But what do you want me to do? Bring it on. I got it. And we're doing this show, and if. If you made mistakes, he called you out on stage, he'd stop. He'd stop the show and call you out.

[Joe Satriani]

Okay, what would he say? Or you say something on the microphone.

[Steve Vai]

Oh, it's too fast for you, huh? Or he'd say, you know, something. You know, not. Not all the time. I get it, you know, but if it was a train wreck or something embarrassing.

[Tosin Abasi]

Yeah.

[Steve Vai]

You know, And So I'm all ready, you know, and we do this. I'm like, the part's coming up. And I'm like. And I nailed it. And Frank stops the band, and I'm like, oh, oh. And he looks at me and takes the mic, and he said, not bad, sport. And then we continued. So that you asked if the compliment. Yeah, that's probably the closest I get.

[Joe Satriani]

When he saw that your. When he saw your acumen and saw that you. Maybe. I'm guessing something, but did he see your future? I mean, did he. Does it make sense? He's like, okay, he sees this potentiate in you. Did he point you in a particular direction and say, this is where I see you going, or no?

[Steve Vai]

And I asked him once, I said, is there any advice you would like to give me? And Frank was very practical, and he said, keep your publishing. And that was the best advice he ever did.

[Joe Satriani]

It is good. It is great advice.

[Steve Vai]

Yeah. It came from Frank. So to this day, I own every song, you know.

[Tosin Abasi]

Yeah.

[Steve Vai]

But as far as that, no, because Frank was a free thinker, and he would never make suggestions like that. There was only one time he ever commented on. On my future. And I'm reluctant to mention it. I never really say it, but I guess it's time I could.

[Tosin Abasi]

We would.

[Steve Vai]

We were just in the studio, just him and I just playing, playing, playing. You know, we're playing Sleep Dirt.

[Tosin Abasi]

Okay.

[Steve Vai]

It's just two guitars and sarpeggio. And I was just brand new, you know? And Frank would look for special things in a musician, you know, something that they could do that's kind of quirky, kind of interesting.

[Joe Satriani]

Seems like that's kind of how he put his bands together.

[Steve Vai]

Yes. He would find something. The great thing about Frank was he had this intuitive ability to recognize your potential even better than you did. And then he would get. He would pull it out of you and use it as a color in his palette.

[Tosin Abasi]

Sure.

[Steve Vai]

That's why all of his records sound so different and everything. And for me, for some reason, I was into the weird, you know, kind of abilities to play these hard melodies so that I was a good color in the palette. But the transcribing stuff, it really is on Mars, what I was doing. And I think he recognized that. And we were jamming, and I remember just stopping because I was stunned, because he started playing rhythm and I was starting to solo. And just some months before that, I was in my bedroom in Long island look, you know, listening to his records and everything. So I had a moment of, like, Just what's going on? It was like almost existential crisis or something. I'm like, that's Frank playing rhythm. So I kind of like tripped. And he looks up, he goes, you okay? And I said, frank, I don't know what I'm doing here. How did I get here? You know? And he said, well, how many Tommy Mars are there? And I said, there's only one Tommy Mars. And he said, how many Vinny Kaliudas do you think there are? And I'm like, well, there's only one Vinny Kaliuda, you know? And he goes, well, how many Steve is. Do you think there are? And I didn't understand that because I didn't see myself as anything special whatsoever, you know, And I thought about it, and then he said, I think you're a genius in ways that have yet to be discovered. Well, yeah, And I just thought he was being nice, you know. I just thought it was a nice thing to say. And I didn't understand what he said. I thought, well, maybe I'll do something great someday. I'm still trying to find it, you know, I think he saw my potential to do something obscure, you know?

[Tosin Abasi]

Yeah.

[Steve Vai]

You know, but everybody is a genius when they find what they love and they throw themselves into it without any excuses.

[Tosin Abasi]

Yeah.

[Joe Satriani]

But it's still an interesting. I don't know if that's. He has an interesting legacy with, like, a form of mentorship.

[Nuno Bettencourt]

Yeah.

[Joe Satriani]

You know, I mean, in the same way, if you read books about, like, Tommy Dorsey or.

[Nuno Bettencourt]

Yeah.

[Joe Satriani]

You know, I mean, like, people came out of the Dorsey band, including Sinatra. You know, there's this weird. Maybe because we don't live in an ensemble society anymore, and maybe. Frank, does it make sense? It's like.

[Steve Vai]

Yeah, it's kind of like our whole way of communicating and sharing music and listening to it and creating it is just in flux.

[Joe Satriani]

Are you a Duke Ellington fan?

[Steve Vai]

I've listened to him a lot in college.

[Tosin Abasi]

Yeah.

[Joe Satriani]

So, you know, there's a lot of debate about Ellington's prowess as a composer. And one of the debates that works against Ellington as a composer is that people say what he did. And it's not unlike what a lot of people. Famous band leaders do, including contemporary bands, is they find people with specialized skill sets.

[Nuno Bettencourt]

Yeah.

[Joe Satriani]

And then in adapting those specialized skill sets almost compositionally, people confuse the ability of the player to voice something simple in a distinctive way with, let's call it, success as a compositional.

[Steve Vai]

Yeah, I get you. I totally get.

[Joe Satriani]

So Cootie Williams is. Maybe I'm Pretty sure that's one of Ellington's guys who I think invented the. The wah wah. You know, the. The wah wah.

[Nuno Bettencourt]

Yeah.

[Joe Satriani]

It's kind of what he was known for. And I'm some fan, I'm sure will tell me I'm wrong, but. No, but I'm saying just for the mental image of it is, is that, you know, he became like a star, that people would go to the gig to see Cootie do the thing.

[Nuno Bettencourt]

Yeah.

[Joe Satriani]

So Ellington being a composer and a band leader and this is, you know, 1927 or 1943, whatever he figures out. Well, there's business here. I got to write Cootie. I got to set Cootie up.

[Nuno Bettencourt]

Yeah.

[Joe Satriani]

Because when he plays that solo, the place starts hopping.

[Nuno Bettencourt]

Yeah.

[Joe Satriani]

So it's an interesting thing because in many ways it's a. It's part of that tradition where these band leaders were. Were dependent, you know, charismatic and like Dorsey's case, like, you know, kind of savant level players, but they needed other people.

[Tosin Abasi]

Yeah.

[Joe Satriani]

It couldn't be a one man band. So there's this tensile point between like, let's call it the King of the Castle.

[Nuno Bettencourt]

Yeah.

[Joe Satriani]

And the ones he's got to bring in to kind of make it all kind of work.

[Nuno Bettencourt]

Yeah.

[Joe Satriani]

And then of course, by the way, I have to rely on you. Yes. I wrote all this crazy stuff, but I still got to rely on you to play it.

[Nuno Bettencourt]

Yeah.

[Joe Satriani]

And oh, by the way, you got to play it in a way that I like.

[Nuno Bettencourt]

Yeah.

[Joe Satriani]

Because I'm the guy who wrote it. It's a very interesting thing that's kind of lost in our culture.

[Steve Vai]

Well, it takes an individual that has a strong enough vision in knowing what they want to even be able to direct those things.

[Joe Satriani]

How do you, how do you, as a composer yourself, how do you look at Frank's composing legacy in hindsight?

[Steve Vai]

Well, Frank wasn't a conventional type of composer. He composed for conventional orchestras and whatnot. But he has his orchestral expression. He has his blues and R and B expression, his high information rock band stuff. And he. And an undiscovered world that is ahead of its time is his synclavier work. I mean, it is.

[Joe Satriani]

Is that any stuff in here? No. Is it released?

[Nuno Bettencourt]

Yeah.

[Joe Satriani]

I have no idea if you get.

[Steve Vai]

A chance to listen to Civilization Phase three or Jazz from Hell. Jazz from Hell won a Grammy. Feeding the Monkeys at Momma Zone. Frank Zappa versus the Mothers of Prevention. It was. It's unique music, like unique.

[Joe Satriani]

So this is like another chapter that's.

[Steve Vai]

Sort of another Whole brain muscle. That's why he was so extraordinary. But his. One of his frustrations was that he would write music that people couldn't play the way he wanted.

[Tosin Abasi]

Yeah.

[Steve Vai]

So when he discovered the synclavier. Ah, it's like you put a button and it's there.

[Joe Satriani]

This is a bit of a diversion, but people have asked me if I have, and I. Is it synesthesia? Is that the right way to pronounce it?

[Tosin Abasi]

Yeah.

[Joe Satriani]

Do you have synesthesia?

[Steve Vai]

Not that I know of.

[Joe Satriani]

It's somewhere in the Internet. It says you have synesthesia, the ability.

[Steve Vai]

To hear colors and see flavors or stuff like that. Yes.

[Tosin Abasi]

Yeah.

[Steve Vai]

No, that's funny. Not that I. I love that the.

[Joe Satriani]

Internet just sort of makes up stuff about people.

[Steve Vai]

I will say that I've never mentioned anything like that. The closest I've come is in meditations. I've. At times, I've gone deep enough to enter colors. I know this sounds abstract, but then I would assume that some of the principles of synesthesia.

[Joe Satriani]

Kind of the reason I ask is because obviously it was wrong information. But people who have synesthesia will pull me aside and say, you must have synesthesia. And I think. I don't think. I do. And they're like. But I know you do. Because when I listen to your music, the color palette in your music tonally works for somebody with this condition, which is a great kind of weird compliment to get. But I can't see it the way they do.

[Nuno Bettencourt]

Yeah.

[Steve Vai]

I don't either.

[Joe Satriani]

I know that when I work, I describe music oftentimes in color.

[Nuno Bettencourt]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Joe Satriani]

Like, I'll say this. This guitar sound is purple.

[Steve Vai]

Yeah.

[Joe Satriani]

I mean, maybe you're a closet synesthesia.

[Nuno Bettencourt]

Yeah.

[Steve Vai]

I would assume that then all producers in the world have it.

[Joe Satriani]

Sure.

[Tosin Abasi]

Yeah.

[Steve Vai]

Need to be more blue here.

[Tosin Abasi]

Yeah.

[Joe Satriani]

Well, there's all that. Okay. I want to talk about something that does connect us together. So, like a lot of nerds in, you know, circa 80s, this. This flexi disc that comes out in. It was a guitar world. Or a guitar. It was guitar player.

[Steve Vai]

Probably guitar player at the time.

[Tosin Abasi]

Yeah.

[Joe Satriani]

And it was. The song was Flex. Flexible.

[Steve Vai]

The attitude song.

[Joe Satriani]

Attitude song. Sorry.

[Steve Vai]

From the record.

[Joe Satriani]

From the record. Flexible.

[Tosin Abasi]

Right.

[Joe Satriani]

I later got the record, but I.

[Steve Vai]

You got that record?

[Joe Satriani]

I did, but here's the thing about that. And. And, you know, like myself, you've been interviewed plenty. And, you know, you kind of get your list of these are the people that I've been influenced by. And, you know, you kind of. You name check people because it becomes convenient. It's like, these are my seven guys, but sometimes you leave off the other three that, you know, maybe people wouldn't know or whatever.

[Nuno Bettencourt]

Yeah.

[Joe Satriani]

And I would never have thought of you as an influence. But in doing the research on you, I remembered getting this flexi disc. I would have been about 17 years old, and I swear to God, I listened to it last night and I was like, wow, I ripped a lot of stuff off of you. It's a cool connection that we have. Because.

[Steve Vai]

Because I've ripped a lot of stuff from you.

[Joe Satriani]

Oh, well, God bless you. I didn't know that. Okay, now I'm going to fall in my chair. But there's a bigger point here besides my fanboying, but what was so amazing to me about that. That song at the time. And again, the attitude song 84.

[Nuno Bettencourt]

Yes.

[Joe Satriani]

So in one three, four minute go, you play like about eight styles of guitar or something. You know what I mean? And there's a lot of joy in it and a lot of kind of sass in it. And I think I took a lot from that. I think, like, kind of like how I was saying, like, you know, when you were listening to Paige, there was still some part of you that had had to find Frank Zappa, you know what I mean? Like, you went left. I think you helped me go left in a way. You kind of gave me permission to be less rigid in my thinking about the guitar. Because up to that point, I just wanted to be a shredder like everybody else on the block, you know? So one day it was Randy Rhodes, the Next it was Yngwie. You know, I mean, heck, I had Tony McAlpine records.

[Steve Vai]

I.

[Joe Satriani]

You know, I was. I was listening to all that. Yeah, I was listening. I was total shredder brain.

[Steve Vai]

I didn't know that.

[Joe Satriani]

But ultimately I got bored with it.

[Nuno Bettencourt]

Yeah.

[Joe Satriani]

And I almost went through, like, a weird guilt phase, like. Like, I could play like that, but it was. My heart wasn't in it.

[Nuno Bettencourt]

Yeah.

[Joe Satriani]

You know, I reached a point of like, yeah, cool. But, yeah, something, Something.

[Steve Vai]

Yeah, that's fatiguing. You gotta move to.

[Joe Satriani]

But I have to tell you, and I say this with all humility, I remember getting that. I remember listening to it. It was just like a plastic thing they would put in a record. But I was so blown away that. That you could play with virtuosity, but with. With a. With a wink.

[Nuno Bettencourt]

Yeah.

[Joe Satriani]

It gave me a weird permission to put that into my playing.

[Steve Vai]

Ah, great.

[Joe Satriani]

Thank you. So it's a cool thing. I. And I would have never thought of it if we hadn't sort of found this moment.

[Steve Vai]

Oh, that's so interesting. Yeah, it's interesting that, because I. You know, Dave Grohl.

[Joe Satriani]

Sure.

[Steve Vai]

They. He. They made that crazy movie. Oh, was it the Studio 666 horror movie?

[Nuno Bettencourt]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Steve Vai]

Well, they. They filmed it three houses down the street.

[Joe Satriani]

Okay.

[Steve Vai]

Dave lives in my neighborhood.

[Joe Satriani]

Okay.

[Steve Vai]

And he asked me to go and be in the film.

[Tosin Abasi]

Okay.

[Steve Vai]

There's a part where he's. He's supposed to shred.

[Joe Satriani]

Oh, and you're the shredder.

[Nuno Bettencourt]

Yeah.

[Steve Vai]

Yeah. So, you know, they filmed me from here. It was really great fun. But I was sitting with him and Taylor and they were telling me about their flexible influence. It was weird because when I made that record, I was going through personal transition, you know, psychological. I was coming out of this very, very dark place and had discovered metaphysics and new ways.

[Joe Satriani]

Was it just personal stuff?

[Steve Vai]

Personal.

[Joe Satriani]

Just head stuff.

[Steve Vai]

Head stuff.

[Tosin Abasi]

Okay.

[Joe Satriani]

But it was anything to do with music, though, or just, okay, it's life.

[Steve Vai]

My music career was handed to me on a silver platter. I have no problem. It was just been great, great, great. But other things, challenges, you know, And I had gone through this very dark period and flex, and then I had discovered some light, so to speak, and that started to flow into what I was doing. So flexible was a total home experiment of just doing things that me and my friends could laugh at. You know, I'd go, hey, listen to this. Listen to this. Darn, darn, darn. You know?

[Tosin Abasi]

Yeah.

[Steve Vai]

And. And then on a whim, I decided to release it. And, you know, it's never thinking anybody would, you know, really have an interest.

[Joe Satriani]

In fact, you just reissued it recently, right? Am I crazy?

[Nuno Bettencourt]

Yeah.

[Steve Vai]

We did like a 36th anniversary. But I would never expect anybody would because it's such a weird, quirky, obtuse record. But it does have some joy. It's got a lot of joy in it. And David mentioned that he was into it and even mentioned the Attitude song as being an impact.

[Joe Satriani]

It's a certain permission.

[Nuno Bettencourt]

Yeah.

[Tosin Abasi]

Right.

[Joe Satriani]

Because if you're down in here, you know, trying to play Phrygian scales, you know, you spend so much time trying to catch up to somebody who's already there.

[Nuno Bettencourt]

Yeah.

[Joe Satriani]

And even if you do three years, 30 years, okay. All you've done is just match their accomplishment.

[Nuno Bettencourt]

Yeah.

[Joe Satriani]

And I think that was part of my frustration. But I wouldn't have known how to voice it at age 17.

[Nuno Bettencourt]

Yeah.

[Joe Satriani]

Because I was the kid when I first started playing the guitar, you know, I Was a bit new, wavy. You know, this is 80s. But so the metal kids in school, and I knew them, oh, you're playing the guitar. And then after about six months, late, after six months of playing, somebody invited me to jam session or something. And I remember them all looking at me like, have you been taking lessons? And I said, no. I said, where'd you learn how to play like that? I said, I've just been practicing. They couldn't imagine that in six months I had gone from. I could barely play, you know Stranglehold by Nugent.

[Nuno Bettencourt]

Yeah, yeah.

[Joe Satriani]

So I was able to play pretty well.

[Nuno Bettencourt]

Yeah.

[Steve Vai]

It was shocking to them because you found an interest.

[Joe Satriani]

Well, I was all in. I mean, it was four hours a day and not nine, but I was there and I loved it. And my father, being a guitar player, I had a very kind of inner high standard that drove me. But at some point I just sort of reached the thing of like, this really isn't me. Yeah, sure, it's not.

[Steve Vai]

Yeah. I think we all go through things like that. I know I did multiple times in various genres. But the cool thing is the variety is there for you to pick up for a little while, get something out of.

[Tosin Abasi]

Yeah.

[Steve Vai]

Pull into here. Maybe you pull into the Kiss garage for a little while and then you're in the Allen Holdsworth garage. But ultimately your voice is going to come through. And the evidence of that is all of your work, because it's authentic to the bone. I mean, it doesn't matter if you could. You know, the shredding period for you, I think, was very important for something.

[Joe Satriani]

Oh, it created a freedom.

[Steve Vai]

Yeah.

[Joe Satriani]

I always say, and you said it before, but you have to have faculty to express what you feel.

[Nuno Bettencourt]

Yeah.

[Joe Satriani]

And that's what I always say. I learned how to play whatever I could feel whenever I felt it.

[Nuno Bettencourt]

Yeah.

[Joe Satriani]

And I don't really feel. Other than soloing, I feel no limitation in my playing. I literally can think it and out it comes.

[Steve Vai]

Isn't that nice?

[Joe Satriani]

And then as a singer, that's the. You know, you have to have this third wheel thing over here. So now we go down this other road. Steve Vai's rock star.

[Tosin Abasi]

The full.

[Joe Satriani]

The full embrace. Right. So we got Alcatraz. You're following Yngwie there. Graham Bonnet, Great, great voice. I mean, what a. Yeah. Jimmy Chamberlain of the Pumpkins. Favorite singer of all time, Graham Bonnet. Really? Oh, my God. He loves Graham Bonnet.

[Steve Vai]

His Graham, he delivered.

[Joe Satriani]

I just talked to somebody the other day who plays with Graham and said his voice is still Is it really?

[Steve Vai]

That's good to hear.

[Joe Satriani]

They said it blows their mind. They get up and sing old. He sings Rainbow and stuff. It's like, there it is. There's that guy.

[Steve Vai]

It's like Glenn Hughes. I just discussed with him the other day, and I'm like, what?

[Joe Satriani]

I don't know where those.

[Steve Vai]

Adrian Ballouch, who I've been with for a while.

[Tosin Abasi]

Yeah.

[Joe Satriani]

That's like another planet.

[Steve Vai]

It's different when it comes to this.

[Joe Satriani]

So we don't have to belabor. I did have the Alcatraz Yngwie records because, again, I was in my shedding period, but. Okay, so Yngwie had a real rep coming in.

[Nuno Bettencourt]

Yeah.

[Joe Satriani]

You know, with the. With the metal guys and the guitar world. And obviously, he sent everybody back to, like, try to relearn whatever the hell he was doing. And I remember seeing Yngwie play with actually. With Talas, Billy Sheehan's band opening and Aragon Ballroom, you know, Rising sun tour.

[Nuno Bettencourt]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Joe Satriani]

Jeff Scott Soto was the singer. I'm a Viking. And even at the end of the show, I was leaving and I was going down the stairs. I'm sure you've played the Aragon Ballroom, but this is an old ballroom where it's on the second floor. So I'm going down the stairs, and I hear, like, somebody plugging a guitar, like. And I think, oh. And I stood on the stairs and waited. And they started playing Highway Star. Billy on bass and Yngwie. I think it was Yngwie's band, but Billy came out to play bass and, you know, with Billy playing and. But, you know, Yngwie back then was like, you know, I don't want to assume he was drunk, but he seemed drunk. And he. You know, he's laughing and he's playing and the guitar and. Yeah, so he had that weird street rep. So how were the metal fans with you coming in? Well, because back then, they could be a little.

[Steve Vai]

Oh, I was. I was. I was slammed. I mean, are you kidding? When I. When I replaced Yngwie, he had left the band, and they still had three gigs left.

[Tosin Abasi]

Okay.

[Steve Vai]

So I had one day to learn the entire set. And I was surprised they hired me, because back then I went to. It was the only time I ever actually auditioned for something.

[Tosin Abasi]

Okay.

[Steve Vai]

You show up and. And none of them wanted me except one guy, because after I came in, Chris Impelliteri came in.

[Tosin Abasi]

Okay.

[Steve Vai]

And Chris, he was playing like. Sort of like Yngwie. But the other one of the Guys in the band just convinced him, we do not want another Ingve type. And there was something about what I was doing that they like. So I joined that band. But the first gig, I remember walking towards the stage and everybody was chanting Ingbae. They did not know. Oh, that he wasn't in the band.

[Joe Satriani]

Talk about a setup.

[Steve Vai]

Yeah. So I'm like, oh, this is going to be great. You know, it was. I didn't care if I was humiliated because it was an interesting experience.

[Joe Satriani]

Were you trying to play those. That type of scaling, or were you just kind of doing your own thing?

[Steve Vai]

No, I kill. I couldn't. Who could, you know? And I would do my own kind of thing, which to an Ing Day fan may not be. You know, it's not what they're expecting. But it was so funny when I walked out. I mean, you know, on the Faces, I think it was, in a sense, successful because nobody cheered, but nobody left. Nobody left.

[Joe Satriani]

God.

[Nuno Bettencourt]

Yeah.

[Joe Satriani]

Sounds like those dreams. Have you ever had the dreams where you're on stage and it all goes wrong? Have you ever had that dream?

[Steve Vai]

I still haven't. There's two reoccurring dreams that I have. One of them is that I'm on stage with Frank and he's counting off something like, you know, Alien Orifice or Radunzel. And I'm like, I haven't played it in 40 years. Go, go. And, you know, that's a reoccurring dream. But. Yeah, go on, though.

[Joe Satriani]

And then David Lee Roth, fresh out of Van Halen, that band.

[Steve Vai]

Yeah. That was fun.

[Joe Satriani]

Boy, there's that. Is there. Is there there. There's no pro shot concert of that. No, of that tour.

[Steve Vai]

Yeah. Isn't that a shame?

[Joe Satriani]

There's that one. There's like a bootleg.

[Nuno Bettencourt]

Yeah.

[Steve Vai]

Montreal. Or that.

[Joe Satriani]

It's that you guys are having such fun.

[Steve Vai]

Yeah, it's.

[Joe Satriani]

The band is fantastic.

[Steve Vai]

Yeah, it was a great time.

[Joe Satriani]

Roth is in absolute prime form.

[Nuno Bettencourt]

Yeah.

[Joe Satriani]

High on whatever he was high on at the time. Mtv.

[Steve Vai]

Yeah, it was a great time because. Well, we were young.

[Joe Satriani]

How old were you at that time?

[Steve Vai]

25, 26.

[Joe Satriani]

Good time to be in a rock band. Yeah, In a rock.

[Steve Vai]

Yeah. And back then, you could.

[Joe Satriani]

We.

[Steve Vai]

We wore the most outlandish clothes, and the. The stage was like the size of a football field. You know, you just run as fast as.

[Joe Satriani]

I remember you guys just. There seemed to be a lot of.

[Steve Vai]

Running, running, running, running. It was fantastic. It was good for that then.

[Tosin Abasi]

Yeah.

[Steve Vai]

And. And we played our asses off, you know, it's like, okay, it's not just about the funny clothes you're wearing. And around playing was gonna play your ass off. So Billy and I, we honed ourselves, you know, so it was a real special time, and it was great while it lasted. And I was able to kind of live in that world because as a teenager, even though I had all this interest in compositional music, I had. The rock music was just so embedded in me. And I knew it. It was like professional wrestling, in a sense. Well, you go out there and you're acting, in a sense.

[Tosin Abasi]

Yeah.

[Steve Vai]

You know, just, you know, a little bit. It's.

[Joe Satriani]

Yeah, that's. That's what I kind of was after was like, did you want to be that guy or you were just having fun being.

[Steve Vai]

I was just having fun. You know, it was. I knew that it was fleeting.

[Tosin Abasi]

Okay.

[Steve Vai]

I knew that it was trendy.

[Tosin Abasi]

Yeah.

[Steve Vai]

You know, and I knew that I was in a position where I could play my butt off, run around, wear great clothes, and then it'll be over.

[Joe Satriani]

Yeah.

[Steve Vai]

And I'll just go back to doing the weird music that I love.

[Joe Satriani]

Okay.

[Tosin Abasi]

So. Yeah.

[Nuno Bettencourt]

Yeah.

[Joe Satriani]

So it was kind of a vacation.

[Steve Vai]

It was like a vacation, but then the White Snake gig rolled in.

[Joe Satriani]

But don't jump ahead.

[Steve Vai]

Okay.

[Joe Satriani]

Slow down. Just.

[Steve Vai]

Sorry.

[Joe Satriani]

No, because, you know, because of your interesting history, it also intersects with other things that people are fascinated by. So here's Roth, fresh out of Van Halen. So there's that. And he's obviously got something to prove, and he was out to prove it as he would as an alpha. Then, of course, there's this shadow cast by Eddie. You know, if Yngwie cast one shadow, Eddie cast the shadow. Right. So you went from one fire into a bigger fire.

[Steve Vai]

Yeah, I kept stepping in something.

[Tosin Abasi]

Yeah.

[Joe Satriani]

And that stuff is what it is. I think now people can see, you know, like I said at the beginning, it's less about who won. You know what I mean?

[Nuno Bettencourt]

Yeah.

[Joe Satriani]

It's more about who's in the game and who's contributed.

[Nuno Bettencourt]

Yeah.

[Joe Satriani]

I think one harp I have about. And one of the reasons I wanted to do the show was I'm interested in reorienting what classifies as success in American culture. The old version, in my opinion, which is kind of, let's pre digital ages. How many did you sell? You know, did you win or did you lose? And if you lost, who beat you?

[Tosin Abasi]

Right.

[Joe Satriani]

Like, who's the champ? Just use the wrestling thing. I think we're entering a new era where it's not about who's the champ. It's like who's in and who contributes over a sustained arc. And even if at times maybe the story doesn't get told, there's a lot to learn from the journey of different people because most of the people who reach a level of acclaim, their story is very unique and it's a lot more rare than the credit would have you believe. Having been in the music industry as long as you have and I have, you know, one of the things they try to do is, well, we can just get another one of you and go back to Frank saying, you know, there's kind of really only one of you. As an 18 year old man, that's almost hard to believe. What do you mean there's one? I mean, there's 8, 7 million people on this planet. At some point you wake up and you look in the mirror and you go, actually there really is only one.

[Steve Vai]

Yes.

[Joe Satriani]

And that's not a bad thing.

[Steve Vai]

No, it's true for everybody.

[Joe Satriani]

Yeah, exactly. But I'm saying the business has been oriented, oriented around the idea of convincing people like you and I that we're not that unique and creating a business model that sort of exploits what we do contribute. And then the minute we don't sort of fit in their business model, they toss us out the door.

[Nuno Bettencourt]

Yeah.

[Joe Satriani]

I'm not the biggest fan of social media, but it's re oriented the landscape in a way that's allowed people to understand that people's value carries on a lot farther than what the old models would have you believe. So what's interesting about that period of your life is, you know, you look at this transition from, you know, because basically what people would call Van Hagar went on to be a bigger band in many ways than Van Halen ever was. And you're in that, you're in that very interesting position. You worked with one crazy alpha in Frank Zappa. Here's another crazy alpha in David Lee Roth who's not just out to win the world, he's out to prove that he's got the better band. You know what I mean?

[Nuno Bettencourt]

Yeah.

[Joe Satriani]

And he's also relying on you to sort of make the case.

[Nuno Bettencourt]

Yeah, yeah.

[Joe Satriani]

So I'm not so much. If you want to talk about your version of it from, from what it put on you, but I'm interested in how you perceived it from afar because you don't strike me as somebody who was out to like, I'm going to prove Eddie Van Halen wrong or, you know, it was, it never felt that way.

[Steve Vai]

How do you do that.

[Joe Satriani]

Well, that's a. That's a. That's a different question. But my point is a person with less confidence or a person who think they could make their bones on Eddie's loss. Yeah, they would. They would have treated that gig a lot differently. You brought a lot of joy and fun to it, and then ultimately it led to you having some relationship with Eddie. Like he didn't see you as a. As a hostile combatant.

[Steve Vai]

Yeah, because I wasn't.

[Joe Satriani]

But that's my point.

[Nuno Bettencourt]

Yeah.

[Joe Satriani]

And I think that's more of a tribute to you because most people step in that role would think, like, okay, now I gotta. I gotta win something.

[Nuno Bettencourt]

Yeah.

[Steve Vai]

Well, you know, in the background someplace, there was the extraordinary thought that I need to somehow keep up with Edward. Which is an illusion, because you can't. But what I could keep up with was my own expansion. I loved Edward. When he hit the scene, you know what happened? Yeah, we all just. Everybody's input. Jack closed up, you know, and then what's so interesting is when I just got that joke.

[Nuno Bettencourt]

Yeah.

[Steve Vai]

When. When the word was out that David Lee Roth was putting a band together and he was looking for a guitarist. I mean, it was probably the most coveted rock guitar position being.

[Joe Satriani]

Well, it's like being knighted or something.

[Nuno Bettencourt]

Yeah.

[Steve Vai]

And I was in my little apartment in Fairfax street in Hollywood, and as soon as I heard that news, I turned to my roommate and I said, that's my gig. And. But it didn't come from a place of, that's my gig. It was just this intuitive no matter. This, like a little voice that said, too late. No matter what you do, even if you don't want it, it's your gig. It's just one of those things. The next day, the phone rings and it's Dave.

[Tosin Abasi]

Yeah.

[Joe Satriani]

You know, full, Full, full diamond Dave, I'm sure.

[Steve Vai]

Full time.

[Joe Satriani]

Yeah.

[Steve Vai]

We're doing a movie, doing this. I want you to come on down. You know, Billy turned him on.

[Tosin Abasi]

Yeah.

[Steve Vai]

Turned me on to him.

[Tosin Abasi]

So.

[Steve Vai]

I. I just knew that I could make it work because I had a. A rock and roll fire that I loved.

[Tosin Abasi]

Yeah.

[Steve Vai]

In me. And I knew that I wasn't, like. I wasn't going to try to sound like Edward or do anything like him because people are very hip to that kind of thing.

[Joe Satriani]

See, what strikes me now, looking back, because it's what, 30 years, right?

[Nuno Bettencourt]

Yeah.

[Steve Vai]

Almost 40 years.

[Joe Satriani]

Okay. Right. I think at the time, people quantified it. Try to follow my lead on this, because I'm not saying anything negative. Is they quantified it as a failure.

[Steve Vai]

Sure.

[Joe Satriani]

Because Dave didn't do what he set out to do, which was beat Van Halen.

[Steve Vai]

Oh, yeah. Well, on one. On that level, if you're comparing that kind of stuff.

[Nuno Bettencourt]

Yeah.

[Joe Satriani]

But what's interesting is because of what you're saying, that's why people revere it now, because it isn't sub Van Halen, it's the band that he put together to do that. And now it's seen as complementary to the period. Meaning, like, it's another high point. Like, look at that tour, look at that band, look at the music. And again, Roth being in his prime was. It was an impressive sight.

[Steve Vai]

Yeah, absolutely. We didn't have the songs. Van Halen had the songs for that kind of success. We had a really great.

[Joe Satriani]

Mickey Rose is pretty good.

[Steve Vai]

Yeah, they're good songs. Yeah.

[Joe Satriani]

But I know what you mean.

[Steve Vai]

You know what I'm saying?

[Joe Satriani]

Eddie's melodic bass is.

[Steve Vai]

He's got his whole ear for writing and sand.

[Joe Satriani]

That's the secret sauce.

[Steve Vai]

That's the secret. You can't replace that, you know? And. And we had. We had great music. I. I love the music. But when I say we didn't have the songs, I'm talking about those specific things that cross over at radio.

[Joe Satriani]

That's the. That's the. That's the. We have a saying in the pumpkins. Live by the riff, die by the riff.

[Steve Vai]

That's good. I like that.

[Joe Satriani]

Glad you enjoy that.

[Tosin Abasi]

Yeah.

[Joe Satriani]

So riff based music is very exciting, but it doesn't always translate to Let it be. Let it be. You know what I mean?

[Tosin Abasi]

Yeah.

[Joe Satriani]

Because it's. It's a different monster chasing a different thing.

[Nuno Bettencourt]

Yeah.

[Joe Satriani]

And that's why Prime Van Halen is always such a cipher to so many people. Because how do you. How do you be riff exciting and melodically reach everybody?

[Nuno Bettencourt]

Yeah.

[Joe Satriani]

I think of a song like Dance the Night Away.

[Nuno Bettencourt]

Yeah.

[Joe Satriani]

Or Unchained, you know, it's like such a cool. Like one of the all time ultimate cool guitar riffs. The drop tuning, the whole thing. But it's a hit song.

[Steve Vai]

It's a hit song. And like a lot of that stuff, you know, jump and.

[Tosin Abasi]

Yeah.

[Steve Vai]

And. But the stuff with Sammy even, you know.

[Tosin Abasi]

Yeah.

[Joe Satriani]

Even more melodic.

[Steve Vai]

Even more melodic. So. But what we had with Dave Roth, we were like the roving youth gang, you know, Billy and I and Greg.

[Joe Satriani]

Yeah, it's great.

[Steve Vai]

It was really a powerful, crazy, different kind of a unit of intensity.

[Joe Satriani]

Almost like Prague Glam or something.

[Steve Vai]

Yeah, Prague Glam. Good, good. Monica.

[Joe Satriani]

Right. It says, hard to describe unless you really get into it.

[Nuno Bettencourt]

Yeah, yeah.

[Steve Vai]

And. And it was a good time for it and we were right on time and we did great tours and made a couple of really great records.

[Joe Satriani]

And so just indulge me one more question. So from your perspective. Oh, first of all, were you conscious of Roth's ambition in that moment? Okay, great. Thank you. Thank you. So when it stopped working. Because at some point it becomes obvious it's not quite working. You know what I mean? Maybe not to the way. In a megalomaniac way.

[Nuno Bettencourt]

Yeah.

[Joe Satriani]

I mean, he was out to win it all. Movies, mtv. So when I say Icarus in the Sun, I mean he failed going for the top, top, top. And I don't think there's anything wrong with trying. I'm saying you have a front row seat of this guy who's, like, in it to win it. He's all in. He's jacked, he's doing karate. You know, the whole thing. At some point, people around, whether it's atmospherically or the fans, they just don't. Aren't buying it. And you were there in that moment. It's a very interesting moment because.

[Nuno Bettencourt]

Yeah.

[Joe Satriani]

To many fans of Dave, and I'm one, it's kind of where it starts to go leftward because it's like something out of Shakespeare. It starts to topple under its own weight. The ambition was too big or you said, hey, we didn't have the songs.

[Steve Vai]

Well, that's really what it was for anybody. We had good songs and they sold us a lot of records. And the mystique of the band sold us a lot of records. But ultimately, the reason we're sitting here today is because you had the songs you just did. The evidence is clear. There's something in you that. The little shredder moment here was helpful at this, was helpful at. But you never. You just will never be able to deny or stop the inner melody. It's going to come out. And my expression of melody, it's not conventionally.

[Joe Satriani]

Sure.

[Steve Vai]

Except it's not that kind of thing. You give me an orchestra and, you know, I'm all melody. And even my music, it's very known for a shredder, but there's melody.

[Joe Satriani]

No, I mean, to me, your most beautiful playing is this sort of liquid beautiful.

[Steve Vai]

Yeah.

[Joe Satriani]

You know, it's very expressive.

[Steve Vai]

Thank you. And. But to have those songs that catapult a band and raise them up. Edward just had that sauce. Do you know what I mean? You couldn't just like, we can go Back and listen to every Van Halen song. And Dave and Edward were a perfect kind of a communication there. So I think, to answer your question, that as Dave started to sunset from selling millions of records, we did pretty good with. When I was with him for the two records, like I say, if I believe, if we had the songs that were as accessible and inspired in a.

[Joe Satriani]

Top 40 way, especially in the time of hair metal.

[Steve Vai]

Yeah, yeah. Then it might have been a bit of a different story.

[Joe Satriani]

I see.

[Steve Vai]

But he needs that other partner that's gonna help him do that, and I'm just not that guy.

[Tosin Abasi]

Yeah.

[Steve Vai]

You know, I'm a different. I'm. I contributed certain things, but not in that realm. And then when I had left the band after those two records.

[Joe Satriani]

Okay, not looking for gossip, but like, what. What's the point of decision? Like, this has gone as far as it can go, or I need to go do something else, or I've had my fun or.

[Steve Vai]

Well, I loved making the money. I loved the awards, I loved all this. It was very nice.

[Joe Satriani]

It's nice.

[Steve Vai]

Yeah, it's nice, but it's not. It's.

[Tosin Abasi]

Yeah.

[Steve Vai]

You know, it's hard thing to say, but many that are in the position know that you can be successful and still be miserable.

[Tosin Abasi]

Been there.

[Steve Vai]

Yeah. So what is it that. That really satisfies you? And sometimes you don't even have an opportunity to ask yourself that question till you've exhausted those things that you thought, yeah, we're going to bring that to you.

[Joe Satriani]

Okay. But you go one more round with Whitesnake in Coverdale.

[Steve Vai]

I know I did, didn't I?

[Joe Satriani]

You're like, just to be sure.

[Steve Vai]

Just to be sure. But it was after I recorded Passion and Warfare.

[Tosin Abasi]

Right.

[Steve Vai]

See, that was. That was the thing for me. I love that stuff I was doing with Dave. I loved the rock energy and touring like that. But there was a gnawing voice in the back of my head.

[Joe Satriani]

Yeah, that's obvious.

[Steve Vai]

You have to do this. So I had to leave. And that's really the gossip.

[Joe Satriani]

Was your wife part of that? It's like somebody sit around the kitchen table and go, I know, I gotta go over there. Like, who in your life was the support to go? Yes, keep going.

[Steve Vai]

Cause my inner being.

[Joe Satriani]

Okay, good. Because my point is I'm a person who blabs in my world all the time. You know what I mean? So the minute I would start talking about giving up the arena and the money, invariably somebody's going to go, are you sure you want to do that? You know What I'm saying, it takes a courageous person in your world to go. No, happiness is the preeminent energy that we're after here. Not more gold records or.

[Steve Vai]

Yeah, I mean, I loved it, but I knew it was fleeting and I didn't want to compete with trying to have to release that whole career of pop music. And are these numbers as good here? And, you know. Well, you were short here and you almost were going, you know, and radio won't take it because of this. But if you change this. And I've been through all of that. It has its place. Place. But at some point, there's something in you that just says you have to do this. You're just matter of fact, not that you have to do it. Here you go, you're doing it. And I just found myself writing and recording Passion and morphine.

[Tosin Abasi]

Yeah.

[Joe Satriani]

And that record, that's the thing that really.

[Steve Vai]

Yeah, that was. That was. That to me was success because it felt fulfilling and satisfying.

[Joe Satriani]

Did you see. It's not fair to call it a cottage industry, but did you see this world of guitar coming?

[Steve Vai]

Well, I knew that anybody, any artist at all that has creative impulses that are authentic, they're going to do something that's worthwhile and relevant. It's like I hear these kids say from around the world all the time, I can't make it as an instrumental guitar player in Poland because of this. This. And you were able to release instrumental guitar records because Joe Satriani had a record out that made it, or Jeff Beck. And my response to that is always, they didn't wait for anybody.

[Tosin Abasi]

Yeah.

[Steve Vai]

You know, they. These people that have that in them, they're just going to do it and then let.

[Joe Satriani]

What I mean by cottage industry is.

[Tosin Abasi]

And.

[Joe Satriani]

And again, mid-80s. I'm with you. I'm like, I'm reading the guitar magazine. I know what you're doing. I see what you're doing. You know what I mean? Including all the other people of that time. I mean, I'm getting the magazine every month. And this amp and this guitar and then the Floyd Rose and whatever. Yeah, right.

[Steve Vai]

It was fun.

[Joe Satriani]

But I'm saying, if you'd asked me a ground zero, 1990, early 90s, when grunge starts to kick in. And what was it? Gary.

[Tosin Abasi]

Huey.

[Steve Vai]

Gary Hoey.

[Joe Satriani]

Hoey, yeah. Remember, he had that big instrument, was one instrument song he had, was mtv. But I'm saying, outside of that, if you'd said, would you place a bet on. On a bunch of guitar players being able to go out and Tour and only play the guitar and sell records and be able to teach instructional classes online or, or like Uli John Roth will do. He'll come to town and he'll have like a bit of a symposium and create a business model strictly around guitar playing. I would have said there's no way in heck, like there aren't enough guitar players in the world who want to sit there. And it's actually happened. Like now there's 10,000 guitar pedals where there used to be 200. There's so many more guitar manufacturers, you know, like it's exploded in a way that. Did you. I'm saying, did you see that coming? Because I didn't.

[Steve Vai]

Not the way it did.

[Joe Satriani]

Sure.

[Steve Vai]

Because the industry didn't cater to that. But I did know that if something was worth its salt, it could creep into the mainstream. And there were instrumental songs. Not mine, sure. But Satriani, Eric Johnson, that did creep in. And that's nice. But to me it's not, It's. It's nothing I want to chase. It compromises your freedom.

[Tosin Abasi]

But.

[Joe Satriani]

But the point is. And again, cottage industry. And again, it's not a fair term. It's. It's maybe the foundational basis that I'm not laying is it's about the integrity of the pursuit. Like let's call it guitar for guitar sake. I never would have thought that would be a business there.

[Nuno Bettencourt]

Yeah.

[Steve Vai]

Right.

[Joe Satriani]

In essence, you would be forced to be the guy in Whitesnake and that would be your gig. Because there would be no better gig for you to have. You actually made a gig that was comparable. And you would argue, I think that was better for you because it allowed you to have this free range of expression.

[Nuno Bettencourt]

Yeah.

[Joe Satriani]

And that's what's so beautiful about it. Because sort of through talent and guile, you built something that I. And I was there. I didn't see it. You know what I mean? I thought it was too nerd land or something, you know.

[Nuno Bettencourt]

Yeah.

[Steve Vai]

I was very fortunate because Passion and Warfare was kind of like a pet project. Was a guilty pleasure. And when I was making it, I thought it was the end of my career.

[Joe Satriani]

Was that a good buy?

[Steve Vai]

Well, I thought, nobody's gonna listen to this. It's. It's not Dave Roth and I wasn't in Whitesnake at the time.

[Tosin Abasi]

Yeah.

[Steve Vai]

So then when the White Snake offer came, I was put back into that pop rock.

[Joe Satriani]

One more time.

[Steve Vai]

Yeah, one more time. And I knew again, I knew it was.

[Tosin Abasi]

Yeah.

[Steve Vai]

Short lived and fleeting, but could be a lot of Fun and all of those things like platinum records and a lot of money and all that.

[Joe Satriani]

A good time for Whitesnake too.

[Steve Vai]

Yes. It. That stuff happens and I. I never take that for granted, but it can't buy the satisfaction I feel when I listen to Passion and Warfare. It just can't.

[Joe Satriani]

That's really beautiful.

[Steve Vai]

Yeah. You know what that's like?

[Joe Satriani]

I do, I do. But, but it's.

[Steve Vai]

Again, but your music has, you know.

[Joe Satriani]

Well, thank you. But, but. But I would say. I would say this to people who aren't musicians. Pop music by and large, has a built in form of compromise.

[Nuno Bettencourt]

Yeah.

[Joe Satriani]

Back to Eddie for a second. What's so beguiling about Eddie was he really didn't compromise and it worked.

[Steve Vai]

Interesting.

[Joe Satriani]

But that's like one in a billion. Literally. Probably even one in four billion.

[Nuno Bettencourt]

Yeah.

[Joe Satriani]

To play that. Weird.

[Nuno Bettencourt]

Yeah.

[Joe Satriani]

And have those weird arrangements, like, you know, the bridge in Unchained, but da boom. Like, who writes that in a. In a conventional bridge that's going to go on the radio? Nobody.

[Nuno Bettencourt]

Yeah.

[Joe Satriani]

So he got away with a form of murder.

[Nuno Bettencourt]

Yeah.

[Joe Satriani]

Because for the rest of us mortals, it's like if you play that weird, you're not going on the radio.

[Nuno Bettencourt]

Yeah.

[Joe Satriani]

So you knew when you jumped in that pool. Okay. This is not a commercial venture.

[Nuno Bettencourt]

Yeah.

[Steve Vai]

One of the things I noticed also about the Van Halen camp was there was a chemistry. So Alex Van Halen.

[Tosin Abasi]

Oh, yeah.

[Joe Satriani]

Is unbelievable.

[Steve Vai]

Unbelievable. People don't know how much control he had. He had. He also has an inspired ear for cutting songs. Like, you know, Good genetics.

[Tosin Abasi]

Right.

[Steve Vai]

Yeah.

[Nuno Bettencourt]

Yeah.

[Steve Vai]

But Eddie has a great ear for the riffs and. But Alex and Dave played a very big part on shaping that.

[Joe Satriani]

Well, that's the frustration about being in a great band is you ultimately have to admit that your other bandmates had something to do with the success.

[Steve Vai]

Right.

[Joe Satriani]

It's so frustrating.

[Steve Vai]

It's true.

[Joe Satriani]

Okay, we're almost done. Thank you so much for indulging me.

[Steve Vai]

I'm here.

[Tosin Abasi]

Okay.

[Joe Satriani]

Beekeeping. Yeah, Take me into beekeeping.

[Steve Vai]

Oh, it's great. So we.

[Joe Satriani]

We have bees, but our bees have died. And then we get more bees.

[Steve Vai]

Yeah, it's a. It's a.

[Joe Satriani]

It's the pea. People understand. It's like it's hard to keep bees, Right?

[Steve Vai]

No, it's actually pretty easy.

[Joe Satriani]

Okay, tell me the secret, because we've lost a lot of bees.

[Steve Vai]

Did you keep them? Did you have hives?

[Joe Satriani]

We live on a property where we have a lot of woodland and my wife's made an arrangement where a gentleman who does bees is happy to use our property.

[Steve Vai]

Oh, okay. So I know what happened. So back when I started with bees about 25 years ago. 30 years ago was. It was a simple. We bought this house in Encino, two acres. Place was vacant for 10 years.

[Joe Satriani]

Okay.

[Steve Vai]

So I'm trying to research. How am I going to plant stuff. My wife wanted a garden, I wanted some fruit trees. And I realized, I discovered that honeybees are incredible pollinators. And I thought, well, that would be an eclectic hobby. That would be me, you know.

[Joe Satriani]

So are there photos of you in the beekeeping scene?

[Steve Vai]

Yeah, no. For years. I still have bees. I got them right now. It was a great hobby.

[Joe Satriani]

Do you name your honey?

[Steve Vai]

Is it the Vi Honey Fire Garden Honey. See, I named it after one of my records, but it's a simple hobby, but it can be complex if you get into it. And I know way too much about bees.

[Joe Satriani]

Give me the 62nd Zen of beekeeping.

[Steve Vai]

You're with the bees. They have a fascinating social infrastructure. They're calming. You're with nature. They make honey. They really are extraordinary. And they are great. They're vital for the environment, certain aspects of the environment.

[Joe Satriani]

Well, you know, there's this theory that cell phones and is what's. Cause. Okay, I didn't know.

[Steve Vai]

I think because what happened when your guy was. When you were losing your hives and whatever was called colony collapse disorder.

[Tosin Abasi]

Okay.

[Steve Vai]

And basically, in a nutshell, there was a lot of theories of what that might be. Cell phone, cell towers, pesticides, this kind of thing. None of it made sense to me because the bees and many other animals get their directional facility from the poles, the gravitational pull, the sun, you know, the position of the sun. And the bees weren't dying. They just. Well, they were dying, but they weren't returning to the hive.

[Tosin Abasi]

Right.

[Steve Vai]

They'd go out and they wouldn't come home.

[Tosin Abasi]

Okay.

[Steve Vai]

And this happened 100 years ago and it happened all around Italy.

[Joe Satriani]

Okay, so do they know what causes this collapse?

[Steve Vai]

Well, well, I thought it has to be something to do with the sun, the poles. And then finally a researcher out of UCLA had a theory that it. Because at that time there was huge sun.

[Joe Satriani]

Solar.

[Steve Vai]

Solar storms and, you know.

[Joe Satriani]

Solar flares.

[Steve Vai]

Yeah, solar flares. Yeah, sorry. And there was other. At that time, also animals. Dolphins.

[Tosin Abasi]

Yeah.

[Joe Satriani]

Whales beaching.

[Steve Vai]

Yeah, they were all going crazy. Okay, so that's what I might assume it was because it happened all around the world at the same time. And then it's dissipated. Now the bees are. Okay.

[Joe Satriani]

Did you know honey is the only foodstuff in the world that does not spoil.

[Nuno Bettencourt]

Yep.

[Joe Satriani]

Okay.

[Steve Vai]

It can last 2000 years. Unless, oddly enough, two things will. Will destroy it.

[Joe Satriani]

Water. Really?

[Steve Vai]

Yeah. You can't get water in there. You get. You can get botulism, and you don't want to take your spoon and dip it in the honey and put it in your mouth, then put it back because the enzymes dissolve the honey. I know too much about honey.

[Tosin Abasi]

That's what I was going to say.

[Joe Satriani]

This is. This is a whole separate. Okay. Couple rapid fire questions. The seven string guitar, you're to blame for Nu Metal. Sorry, yes or no?

[Steve Vai]

Well, the guys that wrote it and played it are more to blame.

[Joe Satriani]

Isn't it cool, though? Isn't it cool that they took something that you. You made for one use and took it a completely different direction and have done such cool stuff?

[Steve Vai]

It was glorious to watch. And you know what, Bill? I knew they were gonna do it because I. I was doing it with White Snake. Cause I had the seven Snake, but. But my heavy sensibilities are different than the young guys that came along. And I remember we released it and it did. Okay. And then it started to fail, you know, started to slow down, and Ibanez was going to discontinue it. And I told him, don't give it a little more time. Because I knew that there was going to be fans, young kids that were starting to play, that would see the potential in it.

[Tosin Abasi]

Yeah.

[Steve Vai]

And in my mind's ear, I was hearing these. I was hearing what was going to be happening, in a sense. And I remember I was driving down the street one day, years later, and I hear this music on the radio. I'm like, what the. And I pull my car over, I'm like, that's a seven string.

[Tosin Abasi]

Yeah.

[Steve Vai]

And it's not me.

[Joe Satriani]

Was it corn, perhaps?

[Tosin Abasi]

Corn, yeah.

[Joe Satriani]

Playing an A. Yeah. Wasn't enough to stay in the B. Got to drop that.

[Tosin Abasi]

Yeah.

[Steve Vai]

Lower the jock strap, you know? And they were fantastic. So good.

[Nuno Bettencourt]

Yeah.

[Tosin Abasi]

Yeah.

[Joe Satriani]

Because I worked with Jonathan, the lead singer, Korn, on something, a single of theirs that came out. And he was like, at some point we were trying to find a melody because, you know, it's riff music, right?

[Steve Vai]

Yeah.

[Joe Satriani]

And he was like, I've done 14 songs, 14 albums in the key of A.

[Tosin Abasi]

Right.

[Joe Satriani]

That's a guitar player joke for you. Okay. Another simple finish it up question. You've stood on two different peaks, which is very interesting. The big arena rock peak, and your own. I don't know what you want to call it. But you've also been there with Frank too. Right. It's like Prague Peak, my own music peak, you know, self identity. I think you said that your peak is a lot more fun. Well, he had to choose, I guess, is the unfair question.

[Steve Vai]

Well, they both really, all of the peaks that I've had the great honor of peaking have all had something in them that was very rewarding, very fulfilling. I mean, I got to be a rock star in the 80s. I mean, that good time, it was so great.

[Joe Satriani]

And then, thank God you were married.

[Steve Vai]

Yes. And I was very, oddly enough, you know, I was very straight. But I also really enjoy the ability to go out and play for other guitar players. You know, the guitar is, it's a universal instrument and the fans of the guitar are rabid. You know, they are so passionate about the guitar and they're all over the world and I'm fortunate enough to where I've got a foot in.

[Tosin Abasi]

Yeah.

[Steve Vai]

On that little pocket. So wherever I go around the world they come.

[Tosin Abasi]

Yeah.

[Joe Satriani]

You know, I think in a weird way it's, it's brought the guitar back somehow.

[Steve Vai]

Well, I think it, it almost had.

[Joe Satriani]

To kind of go back to a different route and rebuild back up.

[Nuno Bettencourt]

Yeah.

[Joe Satriani]

Because at some point it's, it, it's, I, I, it's not, it's not an instrument, a limitation.

[Nuno Bettencourt]

Yeah.

[Joe Satriani]

You know that. But, but it can be because at some point you're going to hit some wall with it. The way it's tuned.

[Steve Vai]

Yeah.

[Joe Satriani]

The way the frets work. Whatever. There's just a point where you kind of look at it go. I don't know what else to play. I've played.

[Steve Vai]

Yeah.

[Joe Satriani]

You know what I mean?

[Steve Vai]

Well, then you do things like build the Hydra or something.

[Joe Satriani]

Right. Can you explain that, what that is? I know what that is.

[Steve Vai]

But yeah. The Hydra is a guitar that I had built by, that Ibanez built that. It's wild looking and it's absolutely. Yeah, yeah. It's got three necks. It's got a bass neck that has two fretless strings, seven string tuned down and 12 string with half of its fretless. And it's got like 13 harp strings. Oh my goodness. It's got synthesizers, piezos.

[Joe Satriani]

I haven't seen you play this thing live, but I have to come see.

[Steve Vai]

Have you seen the video?

[Joe Satriani]

I've not seen the video.

[Steve Vai]

You'll get a kick out of it.

[Joe Satriani]

Okay, I will find it. Okay, last question. All right, ready? Can you be too good at guitar?

[Steve Vai]

Can you be? Well, that's like saying it's a trick question. Thin or too rich? If you're a rock star, can you be too good? Well, that's a. It's up to the player. It's up to what they do.

[Joe Satriani]

This is my show. It's yes or no. Can you be too good at guitar?

[Steve Vai]

In my opinion, no.

[Tosin Abasi]

Okay. Perfect.

[Nuno Bettencourt]

Yeah.

[Joe Satriani]

Thank you.

[Nuno Bettencourt]

Bless you.

[Joe Satriani]

Thank you.