Tom Morello | The Magnificent Others with Billy Corgan

Summary

Podcast Summary: Tom Morello on The Magnificent Others with Billy Corgan

The Magnificent Others with Billy Corgan features an in-depth and enlightening conversation between host Billy Corgan and renowned guitarist and activist Tom Morello. Released on February 12, 2025, this episode delves into Morello's multifaceted journey—from his early life in Harlem and Libertyville, Illinois, to his groundbreaking work with Rage Against the Machine and beyond. The discussion navigates through personal anecdotes, musical evolution, political activism, and reflections on the role of politics in music today.

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1. Early Life and Upbringing

Tom Morello opens up about his unique childhood, born in Harlem to a single mother who was an educator with global experiences. His mother met his father in Kenya, a connection that deeply influenced his worldview.

Tom Morello [02:33]: “My mom was teaching in East Africa where she was part of a bunch of like sort of white US Teachers... she wanted to live somewhere with some diversity because she was gonna be raising a black kid.”

Growing up in Libertyville, a predominantly white suburb, Morello faced the challenges of being one of the few black children in town. This environment forged his early sense of identity and resilience.

Tom Morello [05:32]: “We integrated the town, according to the real estate agent. It was completely white, and my mom, who had tremendous global experience, couldn't find a teaching job because we were an interracial family.”

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2. Musical Influences and Career Beginnings

Despite a household touched by classical music—his great uncle played in the Chicago Symphony Orchestra, and his grandfather was a talented pianist—Morello found his own path through heavy metal and punk. His first significant musical influence was Kiss, highlighted by his acquisition of their Destroyer album.

Tom Morello [12:37]: “I was a fan of Kiss before I heard a note of their music... that was the music that I first was imprinted with.”

Initially aspiring to be a singer, Morello’s journey shifted towards guitar playing at the age of 17, despite early discouragement from formal lessons.

Tom Morello [14:12]: “I was a singer before I was a guitar player. My idol was Robert Plant, before it was Jimmy Page.”

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3. Navigating the Music Industry

Morello recounts his early struggles attempting to break into the heavy metal scene in Los Angeles during the mid-1980s. Despite his Harvard background in political science—a degree he pursued with the hope of arming himself for societal struggles—he found himself unable to secure a band or a job in the competitive Sunset Strip environment.

Tom Morello [25:28]: “I couldn't get hired. I couldn't get in a band and I couldn't get a job.”

His tenure with the band Lockup, although short-lived, set the stage for his later endeavors with Rage Against the Machine.

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4. Formation and Impact of Rage Against the Machine

The turning point in Morello's career came with the formation of Rage Against the Machine (RATM). The band’s fusion of heavy metal riffs with politically charged lyrics created a unique and powerful sound that resonated deeply with audiences.

Tom Morello [42:23]: “There was zero commercial ambition. There was no hope of booking a club show when that band formed.”

Their debut performances ignited intense reactions, establishing RATM as a force to be reckoned with in the music industry. The band's commitment to authenticity and political expression became their hallmark.

Tom Morello [43:18]: “The North Star that has, you know, the next 21 records has guided my fate.”

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5. Political Activism and Music

A significant portion of the conversation centers on Morello’s unwavering commitment to political activism through his music. He emphasizes that all art, including music, is inherently political because it exists within a cultural context.

Tom Morello [64:02]: “There is nothing that in the broadest sense is not political. There is no art. There is no music that does not fit somewhere in a cultural context.”

Morello discusses the challenges of maintaining political integrity in music, especially in an industry driven by profit motives. He advocates for authenticity, urging artists to create what is meaningful to them rather than conforming to commercial expectations.

Tom Morello [64:30]: “It's important in art to be authentic. Write what is meaningful to you.”

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6. Reflections on Generation X and the Music Scene

The dialogue shifts to reflections on Generation X's musical landscape and its perceived "lost" status. Morello attributes this to a sense of "punk rock guilt," where artists grappled with the balance between success and staying true to their radical roots.

Tom Morello [47:30]: “There was a love of Minor Threat and Fugazi and Bad Brains and those conflicting ideology when the music's married well to make festival crowds go absolutely bananas... but the people who made it were so conflicted about their own success.”

He contrasts this with today's music scene, where political expression in mainstream music has diminished, partly due to the fragmented nature of media consumption.

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7. Personal Life and Future Aspirations

Moving beyond music, Morello shares insights into his personal life, highlighting the importance of family. He expresses pride in his son Roman's musical talents and discusses his foray into directing, aiming to document influential bands like Judas Priest.

Tom Morello [70:15]: “I began my singer-songwriter career and open mic nights... having the flexibility of the guerrilla performance.”

He also touches upon his nonprofit work with Axis of Justice, founded alongside Serj Tankian, further cementing his dedication to activism.

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8. Legacy and Continuing Influence

Closing the conversation, Morello reflects on his legacy and the enduring impact of his work with RATM. He underscores the significance of standing up for the oppressed and using his platform to foster social change.

Tom Morello [22:24]: “That was 100% the family tradition, which once I was in high school, realized how unique that was.”

He envisions a future where everyone can realize their potential, emphasizing the need for a system that supports individual growth free from the constraints of poverty and systemic barriers.

Tom Morello [68:22]: “Everyone could become the person they were born to be. And whatever gets us to that is what I would be.”

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Conclusion

Tom Morello’s conversation with Billy Corgan offers a profound exploration of his life, music, and activism. From overcoming racial and societal challenges to forging a path as one of the most influential political musicians, Morello exemplifies the power of authenticity and conviction in art. His insights on the intersection of politics and music, the evolution of Generation X, and his personal aspirations provide a comprehensive understanding of the man behind the iconic riffs.

This episode not only celebrates Morello’s contributions to music and activism but also serves as an inspiration for artists striving to infuse their work with meaningful purpose and social consciousness.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps:

• Tom Morello [05:32]: “We integrated the town, according to the real estate agent. It was completely white...”

• Tom Morello [12:37]: “I was a fan of Kiss before I heard a note of their music...”

• Tom Morello [25:28]: “I couldn't get hired. I couldn't get in a band and I couldn't get a job.”

• Tom Morello [42:23]: “There was zero commercial ambition. There was no hope of booking a club show when that band formed.”

• Tom Morello [64:02]: “There is nothing that in the broadest sense is not political...”

• Tom Morello [68:22]: “Everyone could become the person they were born to be...”

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This comprehensive summary captures the essence of Tom Morello's dialogue with Billy Corgan, providing listeners and readers alike with valuable insights into his life, philosophy, and enduring legacy in both music and social activism.

Transcript

[Tom Morello]

You know, I can't be like the one black kid in town, the only person to get into Harvard who then comes home without a degree. So I, I get that.

[Billy Corgan]

What is a non sectarian socialist.

[Tom Morello]

It's an answer you have to give to Guitar World when they, like when they, when they try to hem you in.

[Billy Corgan]

Were you attracted to women in Renaissance Garde?

[Tom Morello]

Much more so than in real life. Ray Jance Machine is like the ring in Lord of the Rings. It drives men mad. It drives men mad.

[Billy Corgan]

All right, we're gonna jump right into the deep end.

[Tom Morello]

By all means.

[Billy Corgan]

Do you view the entire world through the prism of Star Trek like many Trekkies do?

[Tom Morello]

No, no, no. I would say that Star Trek harmonized with suspicions that I already had about how the world might one day, you.

[Billy Corgan]

Know, how the Trekkies are.

[Tom Morello]

Yeah, yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

You know what I mean?

[Tom Morello]

Sure, sure, sure, sure, sure, sure. Then everything.

[Billy Corgan]

So I gotta ask you one of these cheesy kind of questions. Who was the character on the OG Star Trek to? Because we do kind of define ourselves that way.

[Tom Morello]

Sure, sure. Probably Sulu in a way. Yeah, probably. Yeah, sure, probably su. In a way, because I, first of all, I appreciated the, you know, the, the diversity in the cast, which of course was. Was a big deal to me, being sort of like the only black kid in all white town. But there was something about Sulu that it felt to me like he was, he didn't have, he didn't have the, the weight of the world on his shoulders and yet he was in the coolest one.

[Billy Corgan]

Is he the one that had the kind of the cool haircut?

[Tom Morello]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That felt to me like he had like a lot of range.

[Billy Corgan]

I just found out the other day that his character was forced in by the network because they wanted a teen idolish character. And his character was. His haircut was based on the monkeys.

[Tom Morello]

Did you know that? I didn't know that.

[Billy Corgan]

I literally just.

[Tom Morello]

Well, it worked. It worked out. It worked out. Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

God bless. I know you. I always, you know, because we both grew up in Illinois, not too far from each other. But how did you get from. Tell me the family story of how you got from Harlem, which is where you were born in Chicago.

[Tom Morello]

Sure, sure, sure, sure. Well, my mom met my father in East Africa in Kenya. She was teaching there. And then I was born in Harlem and she was a single mom living on.

[Billy Corgan]

But is this. Sorry to interrupt you, but. And again, who knows? Because, you know, you do your research, but who knows true anymore?

[Tom Morello]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

But I Saw something where your father said he's not my kid, and took off.

[Tom Morello]

No, no, no, that's okay.

[Billy Corgan]

Tell me the real story.

[Tom Morello]

Yeah, sure, sure, sure, sure, sure. So. So my mom was teaching in East Africa where she was part of a bunch of like sort of white US Teachers in the Aberdeen Mountains where she. She went to teach and she met the people making Kenya's independence movement there. And that felt more interesting to her. And my dad, who's Jomo Kenya nephew. They became romantically involved. And that was not going, you know, sort of raising an American half white kid was not gonna be sort of a part of his destiny. So she moved back to the States. She wanted to live somewhere where she grew up was entirely white. She wanted to live somewhere with some diversity. Cause she was gonna be raising a black kid. So she moved to Harlem and that's where I was born. Like West 142nd and Riverside is where we had a little apartment. But the. She worked for the Jimmy Dean show. Jimmy Dean who was both a star and made sausage.

[Billy Corgan]

Jimmy Dean of country fame.

[Tom Morello]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. She worked.

[Billy Corgan]

Sorry to interrupt because it's an important part of your life story. But that was the pumpkins go to road destination was the Jimmy Dean franchise because you got the best breakfast.

[Tom Morello]

You got Jackson the breakfast did rage.

[Billy Corgan]

Have a on the road breakfast destination.

[Tom Morello]

I always liked it during certain swaths of the country. Waffle House of course, would sort of.

[Billy Corgan]

You know, see for us, Jimmy Dean was like, we were. We're really spending money.

[Tom Morello]

Exactly. Yeah. I was. I was aiming for more caloric intake. Just per dollar. Sorry to interrupt. That's right.

[Billy Corgan]

You're on important life story.

[Tom Morello]

It's totally fine. Both those are important parts of my life story. Yeah. So she. We lived there for about a year. Then she moved back to central Marseilles, Illinois. I eventually ended up in Libertyville, where she got Marseilles. It's Marseilles, Illinois. I never knew there was another way to pronounce.

[Billy Corgan]

Same here. So how old were you then? When you're one.

[Tom Morello]

When we moved.

[Billy Corgan]

Okay. So you have New York was not. No.

[Tom Morello]

We would return in summer. There were people that I knew as aunts and uncles who were part of the extended family. It was the connection that she made through sort of the Catholic Church was Father Salmon who was like one of the first black Catholic priests in Harlem. And he became, you know, he was the. He introduced her. He said, this is your family here. And so the people were my aunts and uncles. And he had passed away recently, but we reconnected with him more recently. So he was in our lives, which was pretty great. And provide us sort of another nest and another home away from the. Which is a very, very different life than the one in Marseilles and Libertyville.

[Billy Corgan]

I don't know what the percentage. The white percentage of Illinois was in our. You're slightly older than me.

[Tom Morello]

Yeah, yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

But we literally grew up with the same television, the same radio station, so that's something we've always shared. But, you know, Illinois at that point, up until about 1972, when there was an influx of a ton of immigrants coming in, Pakistani, Vietnamese, Philipp. You know, that's what I grew up in, in Glendale Heights. But Libertyville was.

[Tom Morello]

I literally integrated the town, according to the real estate agent.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah, I was gonna say. So you grew up in a, like, you're almost completely white world.

[Tom Morello]

In a completely white world. And my mom, who was, you know, had tremendous amount of global experience teaching, you know, had a master's degree, couldn't find a teaching job in the northern suburbs because we were an interracial family. And she was a single.

[Billy Corgan]

Blows my mind. Yeah, Just walk me through that a little bit.

[Tom Morello]

So.

[Billy Corgan]

How would they even know to discriminate against her?

[Tom Morello]

Well, no, they. I mean, I'm not sure what it said on her application, but she was not sort of shy about what her. What her family was. And in multiple towns where she was, they said they, you can teach here, but your family should probably live elsewhere. Very. It's like straight up, like, get.

[Billy Corgan]

Did that. Did that wound your mother in any way?

[Tom Morello]

No, not at all. Mary Marie, like, not at all. She was. Well, she was knowing you a little bit.

[Billy Corgan]

That doesn't surprise you?

[Tom Morello]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So she finally. The reason why we lived in Libertyville was there was a high school friend of hers from Marseilles who was teaching at LHS at Libertyville High School who was able to vouch for her and her family.

[Billy Corgan]

That's so cool.

[Tom Morello]

Yeah. And so then. So. But then we had to find a place to live. So the. The apartment complex across from the high school. The real estate agent had to bring us door to door so that. To introduce us so there wouldn't be any surprises. And I was. They. They made. They made it very, very clear that this was not some, like, an American Negro child. This was an African princeling who was to try to sort of soften the blow of. Of the. Of what was happening and that, you know, and honestly, that worked pretty well until I was old enough to date their daughters, and then they didn't care if I was the king of Botswana.

[Billy Corgan]

Amazing.

[Tom Morello]

You will not be crossing the welcome mat on homecoming night.

[Billy Corgan]

I'm curious because I have my own mental version. But so what for you is your sweet spot of youth in Illinois? Like, you know, like, we both grew up on the Bozo show.

[Tom Morello]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

So what is your halcyon day? Like, if you had to do a snapshot of you riding your bike, I would say, and I'm not talking teen, like, you see.

[Tom Morello]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I would say some summers as a.

[Billy Corgan]

Kid, but give me a year, though.

[Tom Morello]

Let's say seven or eight years old. So 72 somewhere. 72 to 72.

[Billy Corgan]

Okay, so what are you listening to what I'm doing?

[Tom Morello]

I'm collecting comic books, which is, which is huge. The Marvel Iron man, like sort of the Iron Man Avengers and whatnot. Also like the DC World, Weird War Tales, and I enjoy those as well. But it would be summers where we would spend the summers in Marseilles. Marseilles is very different from Libertyville. Libertyville was a. Marseilles is downstate, right? Yeah, it's a, it's a. It's a former coal mine. The Morellos were coal miners. Right. So it was a former coal mining town that was a bucolic like, like no one locks their doors now. It is, it's a very, very different. You know, it's like the bad end of a Bruce Springsteen song now. But. But at the time it was. We'd spent our summers there, so it was just by riding bikes, you know, collecting baseball cards, playing, you know, excelling on the little league team, swimming in the radium filled pool, you know, very Illinois. Yes, very Illinois. Playing with Hot Wheels and, you know, just at nights with the, you know, mosquitoes and fireflies, sitting on the front porch with the family.

[Billy Corgan]

So because you were growing up in a, you know, predominantly. Doesn't even describe it. You're basically growing up in a white world.

[Tom Morello]

That's right. Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

What. What was it that you saw in the culture that you were attracted to? And I'm not trying to make it a black or white race thing. I'm trying to say who were your cultural identifiers that you thought, okay, that's kind of. That feels like me.

[Tom Morello]

Billy Williams. Billy Williams looked like he could have been my dad.

[Billy Corgan]

Okay.

[Tom Morello]

You know what I mean? Like, and it was. I've later reflected on this.

[Billy Corgan]

Have you met Billy Williams?

[Tom Morello]

Yeah, I spent some time with you.

[Billy Corgan]

That's cool.

[Tom Morello]

I haven't, I haven't shared that with him, but that's Cool. But yeah, yeah, he was like sort of the, the light skinned, you know.

[Billy Corgan]

Chicago Cubs, pre Star wars or not.

[Tom Morello]

Billy Dee Williams. Billy Williams of the Cubs.

[Billy Corgan]

Oh, Billy Williams.

[Tom Morello]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Billy Williams of the Cubs.

[Billy Corgan]

Oh, that Billy, that Billy Williams. Yeah, sure, sure, sure. Yeah, yeah. Now let's see. Yeah, yeah, yeah, you got a Cubs baseball.

[Tom Morello]

Yeah, I saw that, I saw that. So that was, you know, that was, that was a, you know, as a. Again, my mom was also like the only single mom in town. Like, we were really unicorns on multiple fronts. But Billy Williams was. I was a big fan of sport. Franco Harris too, was another because he was both, both Italian.

[Billy Corgan]

I didn't know that.

[Tom Morello]

African American. Yeah. And those, you know, so sports guys.

[Billy Corgan]

That you could say, okay, not that, not that that could be me. That at least feels like.

[Tom Morello]

That's right. That's right. Yeah, yeah. Sort of beyond the community that I lived in and also in my household, like my mom, we would. My mom was very, very. She didn't want my existence to be ethnically homogeneous one. So we would go to like church groups in North Chicago and in Waukegan. So I had friends that were sort of outside of Libertyville as well.

[Billy Corgan]

So she was giving you this sense of, hey, there's a bigger world.

[Tom Morello]

That's correct.

[Billy Corgan]

That's amazing.

[Tom Morello]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

Did you talk at any point later with your mom about that? Like, what her thinking was?

[Tom Morello]

Sure. I mean, it was. We would go back to Harlem every summer and she just wanted. She knew that this was the place where she could have a job and she could make a life for our little. But Marseilles was not Marseilles. If anything was probably whiter than, you know, the Liberty, because I wasn't there for three quarters of the year. But she made a really, a real sound effort to let me know that there was a world beyond that. There was a world of identities and people beyond the ones in Libertyville and Marseilles.

[Billy Corgan]

So we have a mutual love of heavy metal. And I'm struck by, you know, like, you're saying your mother went out of her way to make sure, like, hey, look, this is the world. Yeah, we live in this world, but there's this other world out here. But, you know, outside of, say, Tony McAlpine.

[Tom Morello]

Sure, right, yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

I mean, there weren't a lot of brothers playing metal. No, I mean, it's none. It's maybe gotten a little better, but it's still very much rooted.

[Tom Morello]

Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

And I don't think it's a race thing as much As a suburbia thing.

[Tom Morello]

Sure. Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

It strikes me that ultimately metal is a suburban phenomenon.

[Tom Morello]

Yeah. Birmingham notwithstanding.

[Billy Corgan]

But. Yeah, but even, but even then it still had Birmingham. You know, you talk to people in the uk, Birmingham is the suburbs.

[Tom Morello]

Sure. As far as they're concerned. Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

So what was it about metal that you found some form of kinship?

[Tom Morello]

Yeah, well, I, I found music on my own. My mom had a couple of wrecks. There was some classical music, like my great uncle had played in the Chicago Symphony Orchestra. Right. So there was some music in. My grandfather was a talented pianist. But the records in my mom's house were. She had War's Greatest Hits, you know, and a couple classical records. I had to find music on my own. And where I found it was via comics. When I, I was a fan, Kiss was my favorite band. Before I heard a note of their music, I saw the, the record was on sale at the A and P grocery store and I was like, well, that's. I need to have that album.

[Billy Corgan]

Which, which Kiss album?

[Tom Morello]

It was Destroyer. Destroyer.

[Billy Corgan]

Right. I mean, good place to start.

[Tom Morello]

A fine entry drug.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah. Right.

[Tom Morello]

Fine entry drug. And so that was the music that I first was, you know, imprinted. Imprinted with. And then, you know, every magazine that had Kiss on the COVID list had other bands inside. They were Led Zeppelin, they were Aerosmith, they were Ted Nugent, later Maiden and Priest. And so I didn't have. There were no older brothers influencing me. Like I was on a solo musical exploration. That was through the.

[Billy Corgan]

And back then it was really. If you heard stuff on the radio was one thing, but if you were in Iron Maine, it was all word of mouth.

[Tom Morello]

That's right. 100% word of mouth. Yeah. And through the ma, like I was. I read Hit Parader and Cream and Circus religiously and studied them and then saved up. You know, there was, there's not. There was not a lot of income for that. So I had to really think about what record I was going to get. So I would study these magazines and then it looked like Aerosmith Rocks was going to be the next target album.

[Billy Corgan]

Okay.

[Tom Morello]

You know, and then did you do.

[Billy Corgan]

Ever do the record club thing you.

[Tom Morello]

No, I never did.

[Billy Corgan]

We made that mistake. You were like, this is awesome albums for one. And then, and then three months later our stepmother comes, goes, what the hell did you do?

[Tom Morello]

Exactly. You may still be paying it off.

[Billy Corgan]

Now, cuz you get a record you didn't want. And that was the scam. You had to send it back.

[Tom Morello]

Back. Yeah. And nobody's sending it and they Would.

[Billy Corgan]

Send you like the. Just total dreck.

[Tom Morello]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's funny. The ones that they were. The ones they were unloading. Yeah, yeah. So then I. I loved metal and then. But. But I wanted. I was a singer before I was a. Before I was a guitar player. Like my idol was Robert Plant, before it was Jimmy Page. And then my voice changed and that. That sort of put some.

[Billy Corgan]

You start playing guitar, what age?

[Tom Morello]

I didn't start playing until I was 17.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah.

[Tom Morello]

I got my first. Very late. I got my first guitar at 13. Took two guitar lessons that made me think that music wasn't for me. And it sat in a closet.

[Billy Corgan]

Oh, really? I have this theory. No one seems to pick up on it yet, so I'm bringing it to you. I'm sure I told you about this before, but I do find it fascinating that Adam from Tool, you and obviously you guys had a band together when you were young and there I am living probably.

[Tom Morello]

Yes.

[Billy Corgan]

20 miles away from you guys. And we all grew up in the same atmosphere. We all started bands that were predominantly riff driven.

[Tom Morello]

Yes, right. Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

And we took music in three.

[Tom Morello]

Correct.

[Billy Corgan]

Completely different directions.

[Tom Morello]

Correct. Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

I find that really fascinating. Yeah, it's the closest thing. And somebody will get mad at me, but it's the closest thing to back Clapton and Paige kind of growing up in the same hood.

[Tom Morello]

Yeah, yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

And we have had our influence on what followed. So if you want to get mad at me, they can.

[Tom Morello]

But that's not an insane theory. That's not, no.

[Billy Corgan]

But I find it really fascinating because what was it in the water that we were all drinking?

[Tom Morello]

Right. Well, there's. I mean, the one thing that all three have in common is metal. You know, like Adam and I, we were in his truck driving up to Alpine Valley to the pre shows and the Iron Maiden and the Dio shows. And then I think what's interesting is how like that metal DNA appears in all three. But then there's how it branches off.

[Billy Corgan]

Might be comic books for all the hell we know. Right?

[Tom Morello]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

I think I do see a similar in this when we have a mutual love of priest and Sabbath. There's something about growing up in an industrial working class area. Maybe our dreams are bigger somehow or they're more rooted in fantasy.

[Tom Morello]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

Because it's so dreary.

[Tom Morello]

That's right, yeah. You know, like what is beyond the Dairy Queen?

[Billy Corgan]

Like, you know, and because you've lived here for years and we all have friends here and you know, people that grew up here, they're like, oh, yeah. You know, I went to school with Gene Simmons kid. And, you know, Steve Lukather used to drive me to school. And we're like, I remember the first time the Pumpkins went to Europe. We saw our first famous person, and it was. It was Bonnie Tyler.

[Tom Morello]

Oh, my gosh.

[Billy Corgan]

Total clips of the Heart.

[Tom Morello]

Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

She was in the same hotel, like, oh, my God, it's Bonnie Tyler. And nothing against Bonnie Tyler. Cool.

[Tom Morello]

Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

Great songs. But, I mean, we weren't into Bonnie, but we were like, oh, my God, there's a celebrity.

[Tom Morello]

A celebrity. My first famous person was Daryl Hannah, who I saw sitting in the back of a car in Westwood, and I went to a payphone to call home.

[Billy Corgan]

See, did television, like, what you were watching in television? Did that kind of help?

[Tom Morello]

Sure. I mean, well, the stuff that I leaned into it was, you know, like the Planet of the Apes TV show and stuff like that.

[Billy Corgan]

I don't remember that TV show.

[Tom Morello]

Oh, really? Oh, yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

Was it a cartoon or was it.

[Tom Morello]

No, it was Rodney McDowell reprising his role as Cornelius.

[Billy Corgan]

I just interviewed Paul Williams, who was famously in battle for the Planet of the Apes.

[Tom Morello]

Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But now TV was, you know, it was the TV Guide, and there was the Saturday morning cartoons. It's a world that, like, our children will never understand. And how you had to, you know.

[Billy Corgan]

Remember when you'd watch stuff you didn't.

[Tom Morello]

Really want to watch because it was on, Right?

[Billy Corgan]

It's like, there's four channels, and I'm gonna watch this cooking show, or I'm gonna watch the cooking show, because the person cooking's kind of hot, right?

[Tom Morello]

And the next. You're waiting for the next show, too, but the tv, The TV Guide would come out. I remember circling, you know, like, you're waiting for Happy Days, and there's a Godzilla movie on, Creature Feature and whatnot.

[Billy Corgan]

I feel like. And correct me again, because this is the world of research. Was Hollywood first before Harvard or Harvard, then Hollywood?

[Tom Morello]

Harvard. Yeah. No, I was. I was the. And I'll say. Preface this by saying it is through no unique genius of my own, but I was the first person from Libertyville to ever attend Harvard. No one had ever applied before either. So there was not.

[Billy Corgan]

Were you a really good student?

[Tom Morello]

I was a really good student, but no one had ever. Like, I went to the guidance counselor, you know, with good grades, and I was in drama club and had some other stuff. And they said, you know, you're shoeing at U of I. Here's the application, you know, because that's.

[Billy Corgan]

What you do in Illinois.

[Tom Morello]

That's what you do. You go to U of I.

[Billy Corgan]

And if you're a stoner, you go to Illinois State.

[Tom Morello]

Yeah, yeah. Or clc. You go to clc. But I looked over his shoulder and I saw there was like, the Colleges of North America, a musty ledger. And I said, can I borrow that? And I read it cover to cover, and I learned that there were universities. First of all, University of Illinois is a fantastic school, but there's other schools too.

[Billy Corgan]

So it wasn't like you grew up thinking, I want to go to Harvard.

[Tom Morello]

No, I couldn't care less, honestly. I would have been happy to go to clc. Very happy to go to clc. But I thought, why not apply? The thing that was most appealing about it was their endowment was so huge that they accepted their freshman class need blind. So basically their freshman class is a social experiment. It's like we're trying to get a group of people together that will learn from and teach each other. And I just thought that was that rather than like, there's the X number of alumni kids and the ones that can afford the school. And that to me, just felt like. Like that was. There's a different idea of how to have. Have a school. And that was so.

[Billy Corgan]

Okay, now you're going to Harvard.

[Tom Morello]

Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

Poli sci.

[Tom Morello]

Was the poli sci. Yeah. But I was. But it was. I started playing guitar at 17, but I was. Had the calling at 19. I was at the little rehearsal room under the, you know, where we had dinners under the cafeteria. And it was, you know, the skies open. There was a moment of improvisation where I felt a calling like this. And I had many other interests. I was an artist, I was a writer. I was interested in leftist political revolt. And I was like, I now am a guitar player and I have to bend everything around that.

[Billy Corgan]

And it hadn't struck you before that?

[Tom Morello]

No, no, no.

[Billy Corgan]

In terms of an identity.

[Tom Morello]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then that. And then while balancing a poli sci major at Harvard was challenge. Because I, you know, I can't be like the one black kid in town, the only person to get into Harvard who then comes home without a degree. So I. I get that. Yeah. So I had a better soldier on.

[Billy Corgan]

What. Because I was actually recruited out of high school for political science. It's a weird story, but it's not important. But what did you. What? Because, you know, you're so closely attached. That's not the right word, but. But people see you as a political person. You've Always been a political person in the public sphere. That's who you are in front of the camera and backstage. But what was it about, Polly, the political science? Did that help you? Kind of. I don't want to be as glib as thinking like you learned the stratagems, how to take over the world. But it might have had something to do with your aggressive.

[Tom Morello]

Yeah, that was the hope. The hope was to arm myself intellectually for the coming struggles. You know, that's. That was. That was.

[Billy Corgan]

Well, you're in the right place now.

[Tom Morello]

That was the hope. Exactly. Exactly. That was the hope. You know, and. And it's poli sci. There's people who are watching this who are from Harvard. It's actually the. The Harvard doesn't have majors. They have concentrations. It's not called poli sci, it's called social studies. So there's going to be someone who's going to. Not now that that's cleared up. But you just. It's interdisciplinary. It's part philosophy, part history, part economics. That.

[Billy Corgan]

But did it. Did it inform you in a. But I don't know. To me, some people, when they're calculated, it reads to me poorly. Your calculus. And I say this respectfully. It's always struck me as thoughtful.

[Tom Morello]

Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

Like I have a vector of attack here.

[Tom Morello]

Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

And I know. And somehow you have a light touch to it. I don't know how you do it. No. But I feel like you're one of the only people that could preach to me, even if I completely disagree with you politically. And I'm going to listen and I'm not feeling like you're tapping me on the cheek.

[Tom Morello]

Yeah. Well, that's a. Well, thank you. But I just like the. What the Harvard poli sci experience did was provide more arrows in the quiver for something that had been there from day one and that was to stand up for the poor and oppressed in every situation.

[Billy Corgan]

Now, where do you think that comes from?

[Tom Morello]

My mom. 100% from my mom. It was the ethos of my home.

[Billy Corgan]

Was this something she talked.

[Tom Morello]

No, no. It was just the ethos of my home.

[Billy Corgan]

You're in it.

[Tom Morello]

I'm in it. I'm in it in a way that was sharpened when I.

[Billy Corgan]

Sorry, real quick. Was it because you guys were poor or. It's because the way she felt about the world.

[Tom Morello]

The way that she felt about the world. Yeah. We didn't have a lot of money, but I never thought about that because it was.

[Billy Corgan]

No, I get it. I'm just saying it's like for Lack of better word. It's your family tradition.

[Tom Morello]

It is very 100% the family tradition, which once I was in high school, realized how unique that was. Not just in my town, not just in my high school, in my town, but in the world.

[Billy Corgan]

It was very unique.

[Tom Morello]

Yeah. The, the person.

[Billy Corgan]

Is your mom still alive?

[Tom Morello]

She is 101 years old. I was just talking with her.

[Billy Corgan]

God bless.

[Tom Morello]

She's having a day to day, which I was negotiating, but she's fine. She's Good. Yeah. Just 101 years old.

[Billy Corgan]

That's intense. Yeah, that's intense. Because we live in an age where a lot of people talk, a lot of hashtagging and stuff. I love people who walk the talk. So your mother walked the talk 100%.

[Tom Morello]

Yeah. Her entire life.

[Billy Corgan]

I think that to me is what defines where things go.

[Tom Morello]

Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

We're always going to disagree about this and that, but you got to be in it. And you've always been that person too. I'm going to stand here and I'm going to tell you what I think.

[Tom Morello]

Yeah, yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

But you walk the talk.

[Tom Morello]

I'm compelled to.

[Billy Corgan]

It's not.

[Tom Morello]

To me, it's like.

[Billy Corgan]

No, I get that. But I'm saying it's a. I have a respect for it and I think, how can I put it? We need more people in the space, particularly in the arts, that are willing to kind of stand there in a manner of the aggression of their convictions, but not an aggressive posture that repels people. And I think you've done a wonderful job of sort of saying, this is what I believe, but it never feels like you're shoving me out a door. And if that comes from your mother, mad respect for your mother. Like you said, that's not something everybody grows up.

[Tom Morello]

That's correct.

[Billy Corgan]

I just grew up with my dad smoking joints and looking at the TV and going, they're all liars.

[Tom Morello]

Which, which.

[Billy Corgan]

No, but I'm saying, which is an.

[Tom Morello]

Important political point of view.

[Billy Corgan]

But it wasn't based on any. My father told me his whole life he was an atheist and then later changed to agnostic. And then later it changed to, I believe in God, but I don't know who God is. Okay, but. But you know when he would sit there and say, this is. It wasn't attached to anything. It was. There was no call to action.

[Tom Morello]

Right.

[Billy Corgan]

It wasn't like, son, you can change the world. Yeah, it was, son, you're. Because they control the world and there's nothing you can do. That's not.

[Tom Morello]

Yeah, that's a Different.

[Billy Corgan]

What do you do with that?

[Tom Morello]

Yeah, what do you do?

[Billy Corgan]

Because when I did have some power in the world at different times, I didn't know what to do with it, you know, and you got people in your ear. Well, you don't want to say that you're gonna sell less records, you know, and unless you have a sort of a. Some internal moral compass or something that you believe in, then you're. Then you're just like anybody else and you're. You're susceptible to the winds of.

[Tom Morello]

That's correct. I think that moral compass is the. Is a key thing. And for better or worse, that was, you know, baked in.

[Billy Corgan]

Senator Alan Cranston before or after Hollywood.

[Tom Morello]

So moved to LA and with my Harvard degree, unable to.

[Billy Corgan]

Why'd you go to la?

[Tom Morello]

Because Circus magazine said that's where I had to go to play in a heavy metal band on the Sunset Strip in order to have a. I love that.

[Billy Corgan]

It's that shallow. I'm coming.

[Tom Morello]

Where else would you go? Like. Yeah. So I moved out here and I couldn't get a job. 86. September of 86.

[Billy Corgan]

A very ripe period for the Sunset Street.

[Tom Morello]

Incredible. I mean, I. First of all, I was. Make it clear I was never any part of it. There was no. The welcome mat was not put out. Like, first of all, you had to buy. Well, one. You had to either be, you know, scantily clad in lingerie to get in the clubs or have 12 bucks. And I didn't fit into either one of those. Either one of those cameras.

[Billy Corgan]

You're the guy on the street looking through the window.

[Tom Morello]

I'm the guy on the street. We're collecting.

[Billy Corgan]

Flying.

[Tom Morello]

Yeah. Literally, like, me and my roommate, we would just sit along. Sit on that, like, curb outside of Gazaari's and just watch the pageantry go by. But I couldn't get hired. Well, I couldn't get hired. I couldn't get in a band and I couldn't get a job. Those are the two things that I. My only work experience had been five summers at the Bristol Renaissance Fair. That's how I worked my way through Harvard. Was.

[Billy Corgan]

Did you dress up in Renaissance garb?

[Tom Morello]

What else would you do?

[Billy Corgan]

Are there pictures?

[Tom Morello]

Of course, that I'm proud of.

[Billy Corgan]

As soon as we get out of.

[Tom Morello]

This interview, it's all there for you.

[Billy Corgan]

I can't believe I've never seen this.

[Tom Morello]

Yeah. Pirate shanties. And, you know, I was like a wandering minstrel for five seconds.

[Billy Corgan]

Were you attractive to women in.

[Tom Morello]

Was I attractive to women?

[Billy Corgan]

No. No. Were you attracted to women in Renaissance Garp.

[Tom Morello]

Much more so than in real life.

[Billy Corgan]

Interesting.

[Tom Morello]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

Goth has a similar aphrodisiac effect. A woman in normal clothes versus a woman in goth clothes.

[Tom Morello]

That's so funny. It's true, though. Yeah. Well, I mean, there's sort of this suspension of like the nerd. The Star Trek comic collecting nerd that you are, you know, playing D and D in Libertyville and then the, you.

[Billy Corgan]

Know, in Glendale High School.

[Tom Morello]

Yeah, yeah. The suave Jheri curled troubadour at the Renaissance Fair.

[Billy Corgan]

Oh, my God.

[Tom Morello]

Two very different romantic.

[Billy Corgan]

So I read when you were working for Senator Alan Cranston, you found that disillusioning.

[Tom Morello]

Yes, yes.

[Billy Corgan]

You don't have to belabor it, but I. But the easiest thing is I'm just looking for more meat on the bone. How you became you.

[Tom Morello]

Yes. Yeah, yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

You know, because in many ways, and I got to. I don't remember when we first. I felt like we met like around 92, 91, very early on playing Family Feud. Thank you. Visited you at an apartment. I remember that I could still see us at the apartment. And it was a mutual friend of ours, photographer said, oh, come meet this guy. And so we've known each other that many years. But when you did, like, say, burst on the American consciousness as Tom Rello, you were pretty fully formed.

[Tom Morello]

Yeah, yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

You know, I'm a walking wreck in progress. You seem to be like, there you were.

[Tom Morello]

Yeah, I mean, both the band and sort of person I was pretty crystal clear about.

[Billy Corgan]

Sure. But I think what's interesting is that doesn't just happen overnight.

[Tom Morello]

No, no, no. I mean, the thing about working at the senator's office, it was the only job I could get with my Renaissance Fair resume. I mean, I could juggle, but I couldn't. I'd never worked retail, so I couldn't be hired to sell Iron Maiden T shirts.

[Billy Corgan]

But you gotta go all the way back to D.C. or you're out still.

[Tom Morello]

No, I was his schedule. Senator Cranston's scheduling secretary for California.

[Billy Corgan]

Okay. So when he comes to California.

[Tom Morello]

When he comes to California in Southern California.

[Billy Corgan]

I just read Senator, and I assume, yeah, he's my. He's his. That's why I was confused about that.

[Tom Morello]

I'm responsible for his schedule. Yeah. But the thing about it, that was, you know, I got to see really how the sausage. I scheduled the sausage making. So I know exactly how it's made. And the job is to ask rich people for money. The end. That's the job. And you Know, he had progressive opinions about the environment and immigration. This, that, and the other. The job we used to go at the time when we were traveling, I would commandeer a hotel's bank of payphones. So it was like 10 payphones. They're the senators payphones. So I'd call a guy. Number. Rich guy in Texas. Number one, can you hold for Senator Cranston? Boom. Number two, can you hold? So the phones are just dangling. There's nine phones dangling with people waiting to be asked for money. And then when he hangs up this one, I come back around and we start the process again. And that was. It was just so.

[Billy Corgan]

For someone of your moral conviction, that must have been really.

[Tom Morello]

No, it was a day gig. It was always just a day gig.

[Billy Corgan]

No, but I'm asking the emotional question. It must have been hard for you to watch.

[Tom Morello]

Yeah, yeah, it was. But I had. But I was so dismissive. Dismissive isn't the right word. I was so sure that real change does not come through electoral politics. When I had that job, I was always a radical and a revolutionary at heart. Trying to be in a rock band to, like, trying to buy apple juice and wheat bread was why I was. Why I was working. Why I was working.

[Billy Corgan]

But still, you're getting a. Yeah, but behind the wizard's curtain, the thing that.

[Tom Morello]

Was the most disheartening was one day this woman calls up, and I would sometimes field calls from constituents, and she was complaining that Mexicans were moving into her neighborhood. And so I don't know what she wants the senator to do about that. Perhaps some pogrom, apparently.

[Billy Corgan]

Kick the Mexican.

[Tom Morello]

And so I told. I said, you know, ma'am, you know, you're racist and you can go to hell. And I. And then, you know, she called back, and I thought that I had represented the senator well, because certainly he wouldn't have. What. What kind of. What kind of phone call is that? I just. I got yelled at for two weeks by everybody up and down.

[Billy Corgan]

What did they say? Like.

[Tom Morello]

Like you can't treat a constituent that way. You know, you're representing the senator poorly. You know, it's not your job to express opinions like that. I thought if in my job I can't tell a racist to go to hell, that's perhaps not the right line.

[Billy Corgan]

Of work for me. Yeah. What is a non sectarian socialist.

[Tom Morello]

It's an answer you have to give to Guitar World when they. Like when they. When they try to hem you in.

[Billy Corgan]

Well, after this, I'm going to ask you about guitar pedals. But first I need to ask you what is a non sectarian.

[Tom Morello]

First of all, first of all the labels. I think that it's a. You do yourself an injustice and you do your enemies and injustice by sort of like I. But the political program that I've always followed, I said it earlier, is you always stand up for the oppressed in every instance.

[Billy Corgan]

So is there a label for that or you don't want a label?

[Tom Morello]

I don't think. I mean that has fallen under many different labels through time, from anarcho syndicalism to what? Standing up for the people on the butler.

[Billy Corgan]

Stand up and shout.

[Tom Morello]

Stand up. Exactly. Dio had it right. But I mean you find that both in liberation theology and you find it in the Communist Manifesto Up. Right. That. That point of view is one that I think on a daily basis I do my best both in my art and in my. And in my life to enact to.

[Billy Corgan]

The, to the crowd that just hears somebody wants free money or somebody wants stuff that they haven't earned or what. What do you. Cuz I. You and I are totally aligned morally.

[Tom Morello]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

I. I find it really difficult to watch, you know, this incredibly wealthy, diverse and rich country. I don't mean just rich. I mean, look at our art and look at our culture that we haven't sort of figured out how to take care of people.

[Tom Morello]

Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

And I'm not even talking about like the handout version. I'm talking about why can't we organize our society in a way that's just a lot more kind.

[Tom Morello]

Yeah. Because it's. That's not what it's meant to be because it's the. There's an underlying profit motive that precludes that being something that.

[Billy Corgan]

So what would you say to people that when they hear. Hear us talk like that? Recoil. What is it are you making? I guess what I'm asking, is it a moral argument you're making? Is it a. Is it a here's a better system argument? Like what. What argument would you pick?

[Tom Morello]

I think you start with the moral argument is. Is that should it ever be okay for children to go hungry? Start with that.

[Billy Corgan]

As a child who went hungry many times.

[Tom Morello]

No, start with that. And if the answer is no, then that's. Start pulling that, that thread and see if the whole sweater unwraps.

[Billy Corgan]

Right. Okay. Yeah. I just, I. I'm not really interested in politics in this forum. But you know, in your case, it, it does define your art. So. Yeah, you're a unique opportunity to kind of poke at it. Differently. Let's talk about Lockup.

[Tom Morello]

Sure. Happy to. Almost wore my Lock up shirt today.

[Billy Corgan]

That would have been perfect. 1989. Geffen, are you having the. I got a major label deal. I'm in. This is gonna be great.

[Tom Morello]

It's it.

[Billy Corgan]

People think, walk me. Walk. Give me. Because I. I didn't know this part of your history.

[Tom Morello]

Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

And I'm surprised. I don't know. I do remember hearing about lockup.

[Tom Morello]

Sure, sure.

[Billy Corgan]

So what is Tom Morello in 1989 thinking?

[Tom Morello]

Sure, sure. Well, at one night, Adam Jones comes over to. Who's working in prosthetic makeup at the time, comes over to my apartment to be a wingman. He wants to go into a place called Al's Bar. I'm like, dude, I gotta go to the Center's office at 8 in the morning, please. I'm like, fine. We see a local band playing called Lockup. I'm like, this is a. First of all, it's a different kind of club. It's not a Sunset Strip club. It's in downtown la. It has a much more of sort of a punk rock earthiness, and the band is fantastic. It's kind of like a. A raw. A really raw. Early Chili Peppers. Funkier and harder.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah. I was surprised because I heard some kind of.

[Tom Morello]

Yeah. Funkier and Harder this morning.

[Billy Corgan]

A bit.

[Tom Morello]

Yeah. Yeah. And they became my favorite local band. Through a great set of circumstances, I eventually joined my favorite local band. I was the junior member. Everybody was five or six years older than me in the band. And while on the one hand, I think that I maybe made the band worse by making it a little smoother, a little more metal, a little more shreddy solos that maybe it didn't need. I definitely made it more appealing to record commercial like I could.

[Billy Corgan]

So you were part of the. Getting the deal.

[Tom Morello]

Yeah, yeah. I was helped. I could write songs and stuff. And we got a deal and everybody back. Everyone in Libertyville thinks you're a millionaire.

[Billy Corgan]

Listen, you can go back in a time machine, right? Okay. Because I think it illustrates the point. Anybody but anybody who had a record deal in 1989, that era, pre grunge. Anybody, but anybody playing loud guitar that had a deal on a major label. It was like. Like how?

[Tom Morello]

Yes. Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

It was that big a deal to us in Illinois. We were like, how do you do this?

[Tom Morello]

It was incredible, you know, but I. You know, I'm living with five roommates in a squat is where I'm living in the.

[Billy Corgan]

No, I get that. But I. I'm again, it's this idea. Now. We're not talking about the world through television, like us watching Gilligan's island in the basement. But I'm saying is the idea that a band could get signed playing heavy music in 1989, I mean, there was probably. How many bands do you think were signed that were heavy? Like, like, not like metal bands. Like, let's call it the. The coming Hard Rock alternative revolution.

[Tom Morello]

Heard of the Sound Gardens and the Gym.

[Billy Corgan]

It would have been under 15 or 20 bands.

[Tom Morello]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

So for us it was like, oh, my God. So. So what are you thinking?

[Tom Morello]

I'm think. Well, I'm thinking like, I've realized my dream. I'm going to be a. I'm going to be a rock star. I'm going to make albums. So there's. I have albums at home. And now just now there's going to be an.

[Billy Corgan]

Who produced the first Lockup?

[Tom Morello]

Oh, I forget dude's name. He was the guy that did the Faith no More record. Okay, Faith no More record and one of the Replacements records. But we went up to the site, the. You know, the studio in Marin County. Like, the beautiful studio where we're. The. We're like the east side Los Angeles punk. Like, most of our gigs were at, like, at hardcore gay bars. Like, that was where the punks. There was a punk scene there. And we're in this bucolic setting where there's, you know, there's. There's a hot tub. You know, the chef is reclining beautifully in the hot tub. Deer are coming up to the studio. It's very Led Zeppelin 3. We're like, we have no idea what's going on.

[Billy Corgan]

You're not at a castle.

[Tom Morello]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And we made a very sterile. Very sterile record.

[Billy Corgan]

Why do you think it was sterile?

[Tom Morello]

I think it was the intent of the record company. They wanted.

[Billy Corgan]

When did you. Sorry, I haven't the worst interrupt. When did you figure out. Was it too late when you figured out.

[Tom Morello]

Oh, yeah, it was too late. It was when there was a lot of influence in the production to dampen down sort of what I do. And like, there's talk of keyboard. I was very prejudiced against keyboards, though. Like, I had to physically disable at night, sneak down and disable the keyboard, the road, so that it wouldn't be on the record. But they didn't want any toggle switch playing, no sort of guitar pyrotechnics. Like the stuff that was most me. They were sure they did not want any of that on the. On the record.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah. Because when you listen to the record, it sounds like you're not quite you yet.

[Tom Morello]

No.

[Billy Corgan]

Which is weird because. No, I don't know that other.

[Tom Morello]

Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

So. Yeah. No, but it makes sense because it. It tells me that they just sort of took away. That's right. It's not like you hadn't figured yourself out.

[Tom Morello]

That's correct. I. I still hadn't until. But I was more. I was more. Nuno Betancourt, Andy Gill, you know.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah, I get it. It felt a little bit anodyne.

[Tom Morello]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And so. So the record came. But we would list. We listened to what they said because they're the experts. This is Geffen Records. They've got Guns and Roses and the Tom Zutat's there, and. And, you know, there are a lot of voices in the room, and surely this must be the way to go. And. And then we named the record possibly the worst record name in the annals of western music. Something this Way Comes.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah.

[Tom Morello]

Yeah. That was not. Like I said.

[Billy Corgan]

I was a junior partner. Do you go on tour? A record.

[Tom Morello]

We go on tour. We have our 15 minutes where they. They hear a single, and you're being promoted and you're at horrible places in different. You know, in Phoenix and in Denver where there's, like. People are like. There's cocaine dishes in bathrooms like you've sort of seen in Led Zeppelin movies. And it's just so off putting to me. And it's completely. You know, as a big clash. I grew up on metal, but the Clash was my heart for. You know, for. And then those 15 minutes, I mean, it was probably closer to 15 seconds were over, and the record company stops returning calls. The touring entourage goes from six to four, to two, to the four of us in a van. And I realized, like, the dream is dead, you know, like, I had my grab at the Brass Ring, and I failed to grab it. And we're summarily dropped. We try desperately to, like, replace some band members and do another showcase and make another demo, and I'm older now, and. And I was done. I remember I was. I was 27 years old, sitting on my couch when the singer of Lockup called. He and I were the last two in the band, and he called to quit.

[Billy Corgan]

You could have continued.

[Tom Morello]

He called to quit, and he hung up. And the first person I called was Brad Wilk, who I had jammed with.

[Billy Corgan]

You reminded me of a story when we were on the Chili Pepper tour in Pearl Jam was Pearl Jam Pumpkins. Chili Peppers was the bill we played about 40 shows on that tour. And during the tour, that's when under the Bridge took off. And that record just blew up like crazy. And Pearl Jam had, I think, one song out. It would have been alive or something. And I remember coming to one of the gigs, it was about halfway through the gig, and we were hanging out with them every day. Like, she went to her and. And they all look like, you know, somebody had died. And I said, what's wrong with you guys? Because you're usually kind of an upbeat bunch. And they go, they're gonna withdraw our tour support. I was like, you're on this massive tour. And I said, well, if this single doesn't catch, they're gonna pull our support. That's what people don't understand about the way that business worked back then. If that song hadn't caught on.

[Tom Morello]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, they pulled our support.

[Billy Corgan]

So you went through that.

[Tom Morello]

Exactly. They pulled our support.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah, that's it. It's like, oh, you're done.

[Tom Morello]

Yeah. And there's the four of your three, two, 800 miles away from home. No one's returning a call. There's gigs where there are literally no one. There's a waitress and a monitor guy at the gig.

[Billy Corgan]

So when you called Brad.

[Tom Morello]

Yeah. Well, I was crystal clear on the mistakes that had been made. From my point of view is that I had listened to experts and look.

[Billy Corgan]

Where it got me.

[Tom Morello]

And look where it got me. And I made a. A conscious, out loud, solemn vow that I was never gonna play another note of music that I didn't believe in. I knew now that I would never make records and I would never be a rock star and I would never fulfill the dreams that I had in Circus magazine when I drove in my Chevy Astro van out to Hollywood. But I was still a musician, and there was value in playing music that was meaningful to me, even if I was the only one to ever hear it. And that was the North Star that has, you know, the next 21 records has know, guided my fate.

[Billy Corgan]

That's interesting. So in your mind, when you guys did put Rage together, it was like, okay, we don't care where this goes, but the one thing we are going to do is be uncompromising.

[Tom Morello]

It wasn't even that. There was no. It wasn't even, we don't care. There was zero commercial ambition. There was no hope of booking a club show when that band formed. Like, there was no. There were no ladies club bands that had the ethnic, you know, diversity of that band that was singing Neo Marxist lyrics with Black Sabbath riffs and a punk rock fury.

[Billy Corgan]

Now it all seems very obvious in a weird way.

[Tom Morello]

Yeah, yeah. But at the time in that rehearsal room, it was crystal clear that there was nowhere for this music to be other than that we liked it. And the goal, the sole goal was to do the thing that I felt my purpose was to do. The thing that I was unable to do with Lockup was to make a great cassette. So we. Before playing any shows, we just made a record. We made a cassette of 12 songs or whatever. And to have. Just to have it. And that was. That felt like that was enough.

[Billy Corgan]

Did that. Did that cassette kind of catch on?

[Tom Morello]

Well, we then played. Did some open mic nights. We played open mic at Al's bar. We played a couple open mic nights. And the first. The first. The first time, though, that we ever. I'll tell you, the first time anyone ever heard the music. No one had ever heard the music. And then we played an industrial park rehearsing. Industrial park in the Valley, not too far from here where we're doing this interview. And there's this dude who, you know, worker guy. And he said, what are you guys doing in there? I said, we're a band. He said, would you like to. He said, can I hear it? We're like, I don't see why not. So he comes in, we have about five songs together. He sits down on the floor, we play five. Rage against the Band doesn't have a name. Five Rage against the Machine song.

[Billy Corgan]

Was there. Was there a name before?

[Tom Morello]

No, no, no, no. It was just sort of the. No idea. We hadn't gotten anywhere near that. And afterwards we said, what do you think? And he stands up, he says, your music makes me want to fight.

[Billy Corgan]

Nostradamus.

[Tom Morello]

And he had. And he had sort of a. Like, his posture was that of like a honey badger, you know, when he said it? And we're like, oh, well, how about that? That's interesting. And sure enough, people have been wanting to fight to that music ever since.

[Billy Corgan]

Yes. I remember the first time I saw you guys live. Might have been like a European festival or something. And there was a lot of buzz. I don't know if we were headlining or it was one of those things, like we were playing the next day. Yeah, but everyone's like, you got to see this band. You guys just had that buzz right away. You seem to come out of nowhere, but obviously you didn't. And the first three songs, I remember thinking, oh, my God, what is happening? You seem to tap into that vein in the Exact right moment with the right crowd in the right. It was very interesting to witness in real time because these things, they get a little softer in reverse. You know, we can all show the footage of us all jumping around in the 90s.

[Tom Morello]

Yeah, yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

But at the time, it was shocking, and it wasn't shocking, the politics, I thought. Yeah, do your thing. You know, it was shocking in that something that was so, on one level, sparse and muscular seemed to animate this crowd into a frenzy.

[Tom Morello]

Yeah, yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

And we were used to playing. It was grunge days, you know, mosh pitch. You guys took on this other crazy thing. So when did that. When did that thing click?

[Tom Morello]

Yeah, it was. It was at the first show. We were playing at a. A living. Punk rock living room party in Huntington Beach. Someone's parents made the mistake of going away, and a friend of Timmy's said, you know, does your new band want to. Famous S words. Does your new band want to play? And, you know, I played a lot of. In a lot of bands in my life, and there was. We were set up in a living room, you know, with the.

[Billy Corgan]

With the Rage against the Living Room.

[Tom Morello]

Yeah. Some kids watching, you know, from through the living room window behind us. They move the armoire out to the side. And the first song we played in front of people was Take the Power Back and starts with, like, the bass line. Tim's all jacked up. It's twice as fast as it was later to be on record. And when the beat dropped, the room exploded. I mean, the room exploded from the first snare hit. And there was a huge mosh pit.

[Billy Corgan]

In the living room.

[Tom Morello]

In the living room, in the living room. We had five songs at the time, and people were going so bananas. We played the same five songs again.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah.

[Tom Morello]

And that was that feeling from that show to the European festivals, you know.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah, pretty much. Pretty consistent. I want to talk about other stuff. So I. It's not that I want to skip over the 90s, but it's probably the most documented part of our lives. But I'm curious because I have my own take, but I'm. Obviously, I want to ask yours. I view not Gen X as a failed generation. I view us as a lost generation because we had. We did. We did have a mandate and a mantle and whatever happened, whether it was Kurt's death or the shifting tides, including the beginning of Napster and all that stuff.

[Tom Morello]

Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

So what's your kind of general take on. Let's call it? Because one thing I've been sort of, you know, I Like to try to be trendy with my quotes, but I've been saying Gen X has yet to have a second act. I don't know if that resonates with you.

[Tom Morello]

Yeah, well, I would say from a musical point of view, and I won't say I blame it, but I think an explanation might lie in something that we could call punk rock guilt. And that part of what made the forerunners of the various branches from that tree, from the Pumpkins to Rage to Tool, Nine Inch Nails, Soundgarden, Nirvana, et cetera, was that it had a. There was a familiarity in that we all had maybe Kiss and Sabbath record. At least one dude in the ban like cared about that a lot. But they. There was also a love of Minor Threat and Fugazi and Bad Brains and those. It was those conflicting ideology when the music, the music's married well to make festival crowds go absolutely bananas and feel something that they couldn't have ever felt before with just metal or with just punk. A real like synergy of awesome kick ass music with ideas and art and poetry. But the people who made it were so conflicted about their own success. And when you're playing in an arena that Poison played five years ago, there was so much hand wringing that I mean just all you have to look at the release schedules. I mean I think you put out maybe more records than. But Rage records came out every five years, Tool records every six years. Nirvana records like with a lot of guilt every so often. And it was just like we couldn't. There was a part of the ethos was I can't stand the success that is happening because it makes me feel like I've betrayed principles.

[Billy Corgan]

You are ringing bells in my head that haven't been rung for a long time.

[Tom Morello]

Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

And my feedback on that is we ended up headlining Lollapalooza in 1994. It was originally supposed to be Nirvana, Pumpkin's Beasties. And then probably because of Kurt's problems, dropped out. Certainly I was talking to Courtney during this day so I kind of heard what was going on behind the scenes. Anyway, so we end up headlining the. The festival. And I still think to this day some of my problems. And obviously it's our problems because I created them. Them was I remember standing there in front of. And you know that was the biggest traveling lause of them all. The one we did 42 shows. It was packed. It was that.

[Tom Morello]

That era where it was just packed.

[Billy Corgan]

And by the way, it's all young people now. If I had any marketing brain at that time it would have been like, keep your mouth shut, Just play the hits and live to fight another day. No, I, I and Jimmy Chamberlay called it the Art Breakdown. We were doing. And you would know this song, I am one off the Gorge, which has that. Cool. No, I made him totally change the groove. Of course, we did this weird tribal.

[Tom Morello]

Oh, yeah, we'll show them.

[Billy Corgan]

Oh, yeah, trust me. I show them. I'm still paying for it. So Jimmy's playing this other tribal groove. By the way, the song's only three years old and I'm changing it.

[Tom Morello]

Right, right.

[Billy Corgan]

And we get to the break where normally there would be the solo, the dual solo, and I would have the band kick down into this kind of groove, and I would just proselytize. And I went after Middle America night after night.

[Tom Morello]

How dare you like us?

[Billy Corgan]

How dare you sit. How dare you like us? How dare you. I don't know. And Jimmy called it the Art Breakdown and my enduring memory. And we laugh about it now. And this is back when Jimmy smoked was. I was doing the Art Breakdown. And basically, if it went on too long, he would just stop playing drums. And now I'm just talking or yelling.

[Tom Morello]

Yeah, yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

And it was like he was, you know, a little bit on John Lennon. I don't believe in pumpkins. I don't believe in mtv, whatever those.

[Tom Morello]

Yes.

[Billy Corgan]

I was saying, it sounds like you're.

[Tom Morello]

Living the thing that I just described. Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

So. And I'm. I'm. You know, I'm on the monitors.

[Tom Morello]

Yes.

[Billy Corgan]

You know, and I'm screaming and I turn around and I just see Jimmy like this, pacing behind his drone, smoking like a Woody Allen, like, oh, my God, what nightmare has he got me?

[Tom Morello]

So you were not alone. You were not alone.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah, right.

[Tom Morello]

It was in the air and it's under. It's understandable. But if you're trying to, in hindsight, look back, well, then here's. Here's the. If the right don't get you, the left, the left one will. So what filled that void? I remember Talk fair. No, no, it was. It was the. It was the second. It was the B C, D grade Pumpkins, the B C, D grade Rage, the BCD grade Pearl Jam. Because they showed up, they made a video. They were happy to be there. They were happy to be there. And so these. The. The overall genre was created. And then the sub pockets were created, and then the bands didn't full created an audience that didn't fulfill the need. And so these other bands came along that make the period now, you know, when you listen to, like, you know, a Lithium station, there's a lot of songs on there. I'm like, ooh. Like, I remember that era more fondly than perhaps, you know, perhaps I should.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah, yeah, I've been there. So I don't want the gossip part of the band breaking up in 2000. I was surprised when. When the band broke up up. 2000's right. Am I right about that? That's also the year we broke up. But where did that put you psychologically? Because I. I'm. I'm. I'm sure there's plenty of talk and it could become from other guys, but, like, okay, everybody wants to focus on the breaking up. But I always think about the day after, you know, you wake up and you're like, you look out the window. It's like, okay, well, that. Now what do I do?

[Tom Morello]

Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

I'm kind of curious where you went from there.

[Tom Morello]

I was totally fine. I know. I was. I was totally fine. I was like, you know, there was, you know, it was difficult, and then it was just sort of. And now there's a new horizon. I, like. I am a person who, like, I have the genes of my coal mining forebears in me. I like to work. I like to go to work.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah, you are a worker.

[Tom Morello]

I like to go to work. And so when, you know, the singer left the band, I was like, tim and Brad and I wanted to play together. We spent every day over at Rick Rubin's house figuring out what we were gonna do next. And that was, like, exciting. And I had, you know, we had only made, you know, Rage, had only made three records of new music in 10 years. And I had a stockpile of, like, ideas and jams and stuff that I just couldn't wait to see what happened next.

[Billy Corgan]

This is a funny way to ask this question, but hope it lands. You know, when we're in the intensity of those moments and. And we're still relatively young, we don't really have a true conception of the way people are gonna view what those years were like or what that music represents. And, you know, as everybody who's a fan of yours would know, you guys went on and did lots of credible stuff without your singer. So it's not like, you know, it's not the thing of, like, that didn't really work out. And you end up working with Chris Cornell, who's obviously one of the great singers of all time. But what I'm trying to say is none of us can. When we walk away from Our situations. And again, we walked away in the same year. None of us can really understand how the public is going to ask us to redon the Superman case one more time. So. Did you have any sense of that at the time?

[Tom Morello]

You're kidding.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah.

[Tom Morello]

I mean, I look at Lord of the Rage. Machine is like the ring in Lord of the Rings. It drives men mad. It drives men mad. The fact that it is, you know, managers, agents, fans, you know, it's probably.

[Billy Corgan]

Driven you mad a couple times.

[Tom Morello]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. But. Yeah, exactly. And. And so, you know. Yeah, there's a. Here's the thing. One of the. One of the great challenges for me is that I don't just come from a musical background. I was an activist before I was a guitar player, you know, And. And in that world, when you have a vehicle like that to really a blank check of the things you can do in the world and the things you can say and the things you can stand up for, the money you can raise.

[Billy Corgan]

Not only that, it's very hard to be successful by being radical in anything. And to be. Let's call it culturally radical to be talking about farmers in Mexico.

[Tom Morello]

There's never been anything like it. There have been bans, bands that maybe were more political, but had nowhere near the.

[Billy Corgan]

Well, especially in ra.

[Tom Morello]

Yeah, yeah. And there.

[Billy Corgan]

Is there even a close second.

[Tom Morello]

There's. I mean, and there are bands that, you know, might be bigger, that have touched on politics, but nowhere near the level of radical, that rage against Mishima. So it was, you know, a challenge for me as a dynamo activist was like, are you kidding me? Like, this is a very unique historical circumstance.

[Billy Corgan]

So if there was any thing that aggrieved you was like, we're throwing away the power of the pulpit.

[Tom Morello]

That's correct.

[Billy Corgan]

That we've created.

[Tom Morello]

That's correct. That's correct. That's correct. And when Audioslave formed, like, I was. I was like, okay, the only thing that I'm sure of is this band is going to be more political than Rage against the Machine.

[Billy Corgan]

Okay.

[Tom Morello]

That was the first.

[Billy Corgan]

Let me take you one step back. And I'm not looking for gossip, because I'm really curious, because I don't know Zach at all. But Zach has always struck me as somebody who was just like you. Those issues were. Were highly, highly personal to him. So. And if it's inappropriate, we just cut it out. But when you sat him down, and I imagine you must have at some point, like, do you understand these things are important to you? We have this vehicle. I'm not even talking about record sales. Do you understand? We have this. This. This jetliner that allows us to voice things that are really dear to her. What was his sort of inter. Rationalization.

[Tom Morello]

It would be something that I don't entirely understand.

[Billy Corgan]

Okay, yeah.

[Tom Morello]

That I don't entirely understand.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah, I get that.

[Tom Morello]

I just said that people are just wired different. You know what I mean? And that what seems to me like a impossible mandate to ignore is just how I'm. That's my perspective.

[Billy Corgan]

In the Pumpkins, that was Darcy.

[Tom Morello]

Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

The three of us would be like, oh, this is so logical. And she would be the person that raised her hand and say, not to me.

[Tom Morello]

Yes.

[Billy Corgan]

And you'd be like, yeah, yeah.

[Tom Morello]

And over time, you sort of accept that people are what you.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah, no, now, Now. And with some age and some wisdom, I can be like, you know what? That's kind of what made the band work in a particular way. But when that runs out of road, it's very strange because you're like, can't we just.

[Tom Morello]

Yeah, yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

So it's. I want to talk about Chris because he's such a gifted talent.

[Tom Morello]

It.

[Billy Corgan]

So let's just stay on that. I don't want to talk about the tragic part of it all. Zach, obviously. Is it fair to call him a rapper? I don't know. You know, I mean.

[Tom Morello]

Yeah, yeah. I mean, you know, he has a multiplicity of vocal styles.

[Billy Corgan]

Very, very, very, very talented and. And always liked his. Where he was coming from.

[Tom Morello]

Chris, melodic.

[Billy Corgan]

Well, that. That band could not have been successful like that if the four ingredients didn't work.

[Tom Morello]

That's right.

[Billy Corgan]

You guys really were a sum of the parts. And that's no disrespect, but having played with Brad and, you know, even because Brad did the one tour with me, when Brad would lean into a groove, I'd be like, oh, that's why that thing works. So you know that. Because that's your guy. But I had to play with Brad to understand that that's part of the secret sauce in that. The way he leans on a hat.

[Tom Morello]

Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

It's like ge. It's a Bill Ward. Bill Ward fed through some. You know, I don't know, like, when you.

[Tom Morello]

When you saw those fields of bouncing, that's that guy. Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

And even, you know, because I'm a guitar player, and so when I would listen to you guys, I'd oftentimes focus on what you were doing. But then you realize, you know, Tim is just such a cool. Like, he plays cool stuff. His pocket is really Interesting. So, you know, but you got to peer at it from the inside out.

[Tom Morello]

Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

So I'm. I'm just curious. Maybe this is a good way to talk about Chris. Okay. So you go from a guy who's basically a very gifted vocal stylist slash rapper to one of the great.

[Tom Morello]

Yes.

[Billy Corgan]

Robert Plant.

[Tom Morello]

Yes.

[Billy Corgan]

You know, cover Dale for us. Right?

[Tom Morello]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

You know, I'm like, that must have been kind of like, well, this is interesting.

[Tom Morello]

Yeah, yeah. Well, it was. It's the success, musical success, in my view of Rage against the Machine is that it was a hard rock punk version of the James Brown formula. Everything comes back to the one. It's the one. The one. The one. The one. There may not be a chord change in the catalog of Rage against the Machine.

[Billy Corgan]

I'm over here waiting for a teacher.

[Tom Morello]

And that's its dynamism. That's its power. That is the reason why it is. It makes the field go crazy like that. Now, when I practiced my 20,000 hours, I practiced a lot of stuff other than that. And so when we started playing with Chris, it really sort of unlocked. First of all, one of the things that was interesting when we first talked with Chris about making music was he had been the principal songwriter in the music writer in Soundgarden, and he was like, I don't want to do that. I want to concentrate on lyrics and melody. Throw stuff.

[Billy Corgan]

That's really surprising.

[Tom Morello]

Throw stuff.

[Billy Corgan]

I hadn't thought about it like that, but when you say it, it makes sense to me. When I listen to the music, throw stuff at me.

[Tom Morello]

And we were like, great. And I. You know, I. Everyone, did you.

[Billy Corgan]

Sorry. But did you implore him to at least? Because he's so. He really.

[Tom Morello]

I'd be like, give me a. Throw me a spoon, man. Every once in a while I would.

[Billy Corgan]

You know, because he wrote really cool, asymmetrical.

[Tom Morello]

He was. He was. You know, Chris was a person that knew his own mind.

[Billy Corgan]

Like that song. I don't know what the title is, like, Fell on Black Days.

[Tom Morello]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

That's such a cool. Only Chris would have played that riff.

[Tom Morello]

He was sure. He was like, this is what I want to do in this thing. And in some ways, like, really freed us to, like, the one thing his not. Chris was a great, great vocalist, but his greatest talent, in my view, was able to. Cheekbones aside, was able to conjure beautiful, terrifying, perfect melody out of the ether.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah, because you're basically. If you're droning out of the ether, there's not a lot of Melody in the music.

[Tom Morello]

But now. But so that what that meant was when was song like. Like a Stone. Like the melody that he sings on the record is the melody he sang the first time we. We did it in rehearsal. I Am the Highway. These beautiful songs, like these sort of simple cowboy chord progressions that. That. Or a more complicated riff like Bring Him Back Alive, which is like a big, heavy, Sabbathy. Sabbathy riff. Those are first. Like, the first thing that came out of his mouth were those. He later fits the word, fits the words to them. And I just, you know, I. You know, having. Having been in a band with a tremendous vocalist in. In, you know, in Zach, I just like, oh, so the guy's singing. Rick was. Rick Ruben was like, you don't understand. Like, you don't understand that how rare what that guy is doing is. And that these songs are just like coming out of daily. Just coming out of nowhere that are pretty spectacular.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah. Tony Iommi. I saw this one thing once where somebody had asked Tony to compare Ozzy and Dio, and I think it was when Tony was a bit sour about what had happened with Ozzy. So there's a. Well, there was a little bit of a diss in it, but what he was really saying was that Ozzy always sang with the riff.

[Tom Morello]

Yes.

[Billy Corgan]

And Dio was gifted enough to sing stuff that the riff didn't imply.

[Tom Morello]

Yeah, yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

So that's kind of what I hear you saying.

[Tom Morello]

Just to be clear, no one has ever done what Zach did. Like, he's the punk rock James Brown is what he is. Like, it's part Bad Brains, part James Brown, part Public Enemy. Like, that combination and the way that his vocals rode on top of the music was, you know, I think that had Rage against the Machine had a melodic singer is. Oh, no, it would not have been audience. Like, it wouldn't have.

[Billy Corgan]

For lack of a better word. I always thought of rage as a weapon.

[Tom Morello]

Yeah, yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

We had elements of that.

[Tom Morello]

Yeah, yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

But it wasn't our thing.

[Tom Morello]

Yeah, yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

I thought to ask you this because again, you're the one of the only people I'd be interested in. The answer, it may sound too obvious to ask you, so I'm not asking for a layup answer, but do you think politics should be in music or is it a personal choice?

[Tom Morello]

I have two thoughts on that. One is that there is nothing that in the broadest sense is not political. There is no art. There is no music that does not fit somewhere in a cultural context that pulls either in bread and circuses Way or towards a more just and equitable future way, or towards a more.

[Billy Corgan]

Is it because in your mind, it's rooted in humanism?

[Tom Morello]

I just think that, like, I thought that the Scorpions records were not political, but there are in the artwork, and some of the lyrics are, say, opinions about women that influenced my young self to look at the world in a way that could not be described as apolitical. You know, I get that. Yeah. And. And in. In some of the biggest pop music bangers, they're. Which I greatly enjoy some of them, there's a bread and circuses component that if we just focus on the celebrity of this person and on this song, let that be enough of your personality pie that you're not grabbing a pitchfork and a torch.

[Billy Corgan]

Okay.

[Tom Morello]

Yeah. But as far as art, should music be political? The answer is no. The thing that is important in art is to be authentic. And for the sake of Tom Morello, you should not try to write political songs. You should write what is meaningful to you. And if it's girls in cars, then please write that. And don't pretend that you want to write about Peruvian, you know, labor unions or marching powder.

[Billy Corgan]

Why do you think politics has a diminished role in music? Because you and I certainly grew up with Crosby, Stills, and Nash and Jackson Brown singing about no nukes.

[Tom Morello]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

And even. Even, you know, there's a political element to the boss's music.

[Tom Morello]

Sure, sure.

[Billy Corgan]

But culturally, if you take a snapshot where we're sitting here, right here in 2024.

[Tom Morello]

Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

I feel in my lifetimes, politics has never been more out of music that I know now, Matt, it might have been different in 27.

[Tom Morello]

Yeah, yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

For our world.

[Tom Morello]

Yeah, yeah. I would say that. I agree with you to a point. I would say that politics is very much in music. It's not so much in music at the top of the charts. You know, it's not so much, but there's.

[Billy Corgan]

Okay, so answer it this way. Why do you think politics in music is not. I would call it, a bigger part of the cultural conversation.

[Tom Morello]

Yeah, yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

Like Neil Young writing for Dead in Ohio, One of the great political testaments. You know, they were so horrified. You know, they literally. Because I recently read Graham Nash's book. Yeah. Our house was climbing up the charts. They literally yanked our house, wrote a.

[Tom Morello]

Song, and four days later. Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

And I mean, that's. That's.

[Tom Morello]

Yeah, that.

[Billy Corgan]

I mean, that's the Rage against the Machine playbook, which is like, we're gonna stand with what we believe.

[Tom Morello]

That's Right. That's right.

[Billy Corgan]

So I don't see as much moral courage in the culture.

[Tom Morello]

Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

I'm including myself in that. Yeah.

[Tom Morello]

Yeah. And I would just say, like, it would. It would be interesting. I mean, maybe there was that song this is America during the George Floyd. There's. There's a couple of markers, but it's certainly not, you know, and it's. It's. My best answer to that question is I'm not entirely sure. The landscape of how music is put forward is very, very different now. And at the time of Crosby, Stills and Nash, there was a music industry, a great, great band, but they got through a funnel that everyone in the Western world knew that there was a band called Crosby, Stills and Nash. And when they had a new song, you were going to know it whether it was. Was our house or whether it was Ohio. That's not the case. That's not the case.

[Billy Corgan]

Now that makes sense. I have this thing I call if I Could Wave a Magic Wand. So if you could wave the magic wand. But it's. Or a variation would be if I Ruled the World.

[Tom Morello]

Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

What America would you like to see? If you could. And we know it's not that easy.

[Tom Morello]

Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

And we could. Human condition, whatever. We all have these conversations about expensive dinner tables. But as somebody who really grew up with certain convictions, has lived them in public with great conviction, and that's something I really admire about you. What America would you like to see? Is it a blow up the system and start over?

[Tom Morello]

I would sort of. I would say I'll name a North Star.

[Billy Corgan]

Okay, I'll name a North Star.

[Tom Morello]

Are that everyone. Everyone could become the person they were born to be. And whatever gets us to that is what I would be.

[Billy Corgan]

Is that. Does that require assistance and opportunity or I think that. Or does it require a truly open system?

[Tom Morello]

I think, I think it would require a complete. A completely new way of everything.

[Billy Corgan]

That's kind of what I meant.

[Tom Morello]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, it is. You know, the person who may be in their mind is going to be able to cure cancer, might be working in a maquiladora, you know, on the Mexican border. The person who, you know, might be able to save the planet from global warming might be in jail for an illegal abortion in Alabama. You know, there's a like one grotesque. Global poverty is a big reason why people can't become who they were meant to be. And poverty is not something that happens. Poverty is something that's created. But I think that that's like as a moral Compass to want people to be. I feel very forge. I think I was able to become the person I was meant to become through luck and circumstance and my mom and whatnot. But I think that that would be a good place to start.

[Billy Corgan]

I think when we were kids, I think Illinois either had the best education system in America or was like top four or something. So we were. The benefits of at least that. That.

[Tom Morello]

Yeah. 100.

[Billy Corgan]

And I know for a fact that. That I wouldn't have become who I became without that.

[Tom Morello]

Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

The. The benefit of that education. I can't imagine what it's like to grow up in a. In an education system that doesn't really give you that. Let me find what you're good at and kind of.

[Tom Morello]

That's right.

[Billy Corgan]

Propel you forward.

[Tom Morello]

Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

Explain the night watchman thing to me a little bit because I. I was reading about a bit and I. And I. I knew about the shows. I didn't see any script.

[Tom Morello]

Sure.

[Billy Corgan]

I'm a total novice in this, but I like the idea that you have this. I think you call it a folk alter ego.

[Tom Morello]

Yes. Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

So just walk me through that.

[Tom Morello]

Yeah, sure. When it became obvious to me that Audioslave was not going to be a political entity, like, in order for Audioslave to be the best band that could be, was gonna have to be authentic. And it was not going to concern. Overly concern itself on a daily basis with changing the world for the better, expressing things like that. I felt like I needed an outlet. So I found. I founded a nonprofit organization with Serge Tang called Axis of Justice. And that was great, but it wasn't. It felt like I'm a musician and so I had become. I was a huge fan of Bruce Springsteen, Woody Guthrie, Pete Seeger, Phil Oaks. And I thought, like, I'm just gonna. I Boldly, in my mid-30s, began my singer songwriter career and open mic nights. I'd be playing arenas with Audioslave and on nights off, I would go sign up at open mic nights and sit and wait to play my two songs with a whirring espresso machine in the background. And felt the greatest connection to audiences that I have to this day in that guise and really feeling sort of heard and connected. And in addition to that, having the flexibility of the guerrilla performance, you know, like with a band, you have to have a band meeting. Are we going to play the show or are we not going to play? The tour manager has to get a thing together. I could just, you know, get on a South by Southwest flight to play for the Anarchists who got arrested at the bicycle shop protest or whatever. And since then, I've played hundreds, maybe thousand gigs in that guys made a bunch of records.

[Billy Corgan]

But what. Sorry, but when you say alter ego, are you. Are you in a. In the guise of a Persona?

[Tom Morello]

Well, it. It began that way because it actually began at. At open mic nights. Because if I sign up as Tom Morello, everyone goes bulls on. He's going to play on Parade.

[Billy Corgan]

Acoustic.

[Tom Morello]

Yeah, acoustic. That's not what's going to happen. It's going to be existential Dread in a minor key.

[Billy Corgan]

Last thing I want to talk to you about is your move into directing. You asked me nicely to be part of a Judas Priest documentary that you're doing. And I know your wife. Is she still working the film?

[Tom Morello]

Not so much. For many years she did music for film.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah. That's kind of where I got to know her a little bit was. We had some meetings. And so I'm curious on that because is it an aspiration or is it a why? You know, because I. I do a lot of side hustle stuff.

[Tom Morello]

Yeah, yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

And. And when you're a musician with success, you know, at the center is always, you know, whether it's, are you gonna go on tour? Are you gonna do this thing? And you did Prophets of Rage, of course, and stuff like that. So is it something that you've always wanted to do? And this is gonna be something you're gonna add to. To your. You understand?

[Tom Morello]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

Where's that going?

[Tom Morello]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It was sitting with a friend of a few years ago, like, I've always contributed generously to other people's projects. I've got a lot of ideas that I've handed out, and they're like, you should maybe do some of these yourself. And I thought I would, you know, why not a third or fourth act? And so start a production company called Commandante. And the idea was just to make things that I very interested in. And Judas Priest, who. I did the. A lot of the heavy lifting to get into the Rock and Roll hall of Fame, you know, a doc. The real great doc about them is one that the world deserves. And so I thought I'd try my hand at directing that. So Sam Dunn and I are directing that.

[Billy Corgan]

What do you want the world to know about Judas Priest?

[Tom Morello]

First of all, the world does not. The broader world does not understand what an important ban Judas preaches.

[Billy Corgan]

It shocks me to this point that people haven't really figured it out.

[Tom Morello]

They don't understand. I mean, from a From a. From a musical point of view, a lot of what defined the genre of heavy metal was solidified by that band. From the look to the sound, to the singer, to the two guitar players. That's in the DNA of every metal band afterwards.

[Billy Corgan]

Isn't it shocking? Because if you watch the footage of them live in Japan is, to me, one of the greatest live records. And of course, Rob admitted that he had to sing the vocals later because he had a cold at the shows. But if you look at the actual footage of that tour, he's in a kimono.

[Tom Morello]

Yes.

[Billy Corgan]

But by that time, they get to the album cover.

[Tom Morello]

Yes. Yes.

[Billy Corgan]

The Rob we all know and love.

[Tom Morello]

The Rob we all know and love. Yeah. But I mean, culturally, it's very. For someone like myself who felt personally on the outskirts of metal, I was often the only black dude at the Dio show, you know, and then when Rob came out, it was really important when Rob came out, and then nobody batted an eye. That was the key part.

[Billy Corgan]

It's still one of the most beautiful, humbling moments. Moments of my life.

[Tom Morello]

Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

Because. And we talked about in the doc, when Rob came out, as a fan, I held my breath because I thought, here it comes.

[Tom Morello]

Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

And nothing happened.

[Tom Morello]

Yeah, nothing happened. And I thought, metal's gonna be revealed for being the horrible thing that people suspected it was.

[Billy Corgan]

And. And it still brings tears to my eyes. And here's why. Because I thought, why is there no reaction? Because the world I grew up in would have hated.

[Tom Morello]

Yes.

[Billy Corgan]

And that's what terrified Rob. And Rob's talked about that. And I thought I had to do the math in my head, like, why are they not. And I thought, they love him. They love him more than their bias.

[Tom Morello]

Yes.

[Billy Corgan]

Now that is powerful.

[Tom Morello]

Yeah. And it's hopeful.

[Billy Corgan]

Okay, so in your fourth act, if we're on the fourth act, what to you is? It is, because we're all in that stage where, you know, I'm sure you get the call every six months, you guys going to put the band. You know, I'm saying what for you is the ideal state? And I'll offer a little bit of.

[Tom Morello]

My own thing in that.

[Billy Corgan]

When I made peace with James after 16 years, you know, I had to do a different set of math myself. And I'm happy, at least in this moment that we have figured out, okay, this is a constant going forward. We no longer need to debate the status of this entity. We're grateful. And as long as there's a road, let's try to all be on it and let's not try to repeat the mistake. And I'm not trying to put that on you. What I'm saying is that act that happened in 2017 or so was born of me putting an ad in the Chicago papers around 2004 or 5 where I said, I want my band back. And I was mocked widely because I felt like I didn't know how to operate without the band at the center of my musical universe. Even just call it center. Like there's something about the pumpkins in the center makes everything else kind of balance out. So I'm empathetic. And I don't know if you'd recall this conversation, but we ran into each other somewhere years ago. It would have been about 10 years ago. And me being the jerky that I am, I was chiding some, why aren't you guys making new music? And you kind of gave me that look like, oh, it ain't that easy. So again, not talking gossip, I'm saying is back again to the magic wand. If you have your druthers. What's the right orientation for you going forward? And I'm not even asking. A Rage against the Machine.

[Tom Morello]

No, no, no, I hear you. I hear you. I mean, for me, I'm very clear on it now. The main orientation is to be a great dad. You know, that's the main orientation. I feel that, and I love that. And it's. I. I will drive thousands of miles to little league games and that. It's my greatest joy. And then this last summer, it was the biggest solo tour that I ever did. The idea of synthesizing 22 albums and a lifetime of work and ideas in a very, very meaningful way like this. I mean, in the next couple days, I'm playing two shows to honor Brother Wayne Kramer, the MC5, God bless him, and for his charity.

[Billy Corgan]

And you were part of that. That. I. It's hard. I. I didn't understand the full context. But it is an MC5 album.

[Tom Morello]

Yes. Yeah. It's an. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But. But. But just to like that the idea of playing my music, my. You know, historically and.

[Billy Corgan]

But. But they're the only other band that really does fall in the rage.

[Tom Morello]

That's right. Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

And they were obviously first.

[Tom Morello]

Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

To say, hey, we're going to really put it out there.

[Tom Morello]

Yes. Yeah. All the way up. All the way. All the way up.

[Billy Corgan]

And that's beautiful.

[Tom Morello]

Come and come. Come.

[Billy Corgan]

Maybe it's. Maybe it isn't every 50 your thing. No, because. Because it. To. To be that fervent in your belief and then somehow break through is like.

[Tom Morello]

It's crazy.

[Billy Corgan]

It's a miracle.

[Tom Morello]

Yeah, you have to be that fervent. You have to be that good. I mean you have to have Kick out the jams. You could be that fervent if you don't. If you don't have. If you don't have that, then. Then it doesn't really matter. But yeah, that, that. The. That I love the sort of embracing of. It's. It's Night Watch. I play lockup songs, Night Watchman songs, Province of Rage songs. You know, we honor Chris.

[Billy Corgan]

Well, you have your kid up there too playing.

[Tom Morello]

And my son Roman Morello is. Dude.

[Billy Corgan]

Now that is cool.

[Tom Morello]

He is no joke.

[Billy Corgan]

You know, cuz when we did some shows together in Europe recently, when the, when the person or. Or band that's opening for us is going, that's when I'm warming up. I go to this horrifically torturous 45 minute war.

[Tom Morello]

Sure.

[Billy Corgan]

And somebody came back and I said, how is it? And they go, man, his kid's really good. So I think that's where we.

[Tom Morello]

I appreciate.

[Billy Corgan]

God bless you and God bless him there.