Verdine White (Earth, Wind & Fire) | The Magnificent Others with Billy Corgan

Summary

The Magnificent Others with Billy Corgan

Guest: Verdine White (Earth, Wind & Fire)

Air Date: June 17, 2026

Episode Overview

This episode of The Magnificent Others, hosted by Billy Corgan, features a wide-ranging and heartfelt conversation with Verdine White, the legendary bassist from Earth, Wind & Fire. Together, they explore the origins, evolution, cultural impact, and ongoing legacy of one of the world’s most influential bands. Verdine shares personal stories about family, artistic vision, pivotal career moments, and the deep relationships and creative processes that have propelled Earth, Wind & Fire to lasting greatness.

---

Key Discussion Points and Insights

Early Years & Formation of Earth, Wind & Fire

• Joining Maurice in California
  • Verdine recounts moving from Chicago to California at Maurice’s invitation, leaving his studies at the conservatory behind, which turned out to be a life-changing moment for him.

    "He said, you want to come to California and be in my band? I said, yeah, sure, you know, and it was. It was a life changing moment..." (03:19)

• Roots and Family
  • The brothers’ different fathers and upbringing in Chicago and Memphis; their mother’s role and the dynamics of the Great Migration.

    "I'm Verdin Jr. from my dad, Verdine Sr." (08:57)

• Transition from The Salty Peppers to Earth, Wind & Fire
  • Early band names, and the musical vision Maurice had from the start.

    "It was the salty peppers... transitioning into Earth, Wind and Fire." (02:38)

• Distinct Sound from the Start
  • Even on their earliest albums, the essential elements of their unique musical identity were present: horns, complex rhythms, jazz and samba influences, and eclectic arrangements.

    "From the first album, those key elements...the horns and the rhythms and the feeling." (04:19)

Influences, Mentorship, and Early Success

• Mentorship of Ramsey Lewis and Connections
  • Maurice’s mentorship with Ramsey Lewis was pivotal. Later, Maurice reciprocated by giving Lewis the hit "Sun Goddess."

    "Maurice ended up giving him a hit record with Sun Goddess... and Ramsey ended up going on tour with us." (06:44)

• Booker T, Family, and Musical Roots
  • Maurice and Booker T’s boyhood connection in Memphis, contributing to an early environment rich with musical innovation.

    "Booker T. They went to school together." (07:17)

Navigating the Music Industry

• Record Labels and Shifting Support
  • The journey from Warner Bros. to Columbia Records; the role of Clive Davis in signing them after Sly Stone’s departure from the label.

    "Clive came and saw us and saw something and that was it." (11:47)

• Race, Radio, and Market Barriers
  • The band was pioneering in breaking across musical and racial boundaries, during a time when Motown still dominated and AM/FM radio began favoring longer, more experimental tracks.

    "We had time to make the records...it was, all we knew was the music." (12:47) "We hit at the right time when AM&FM radio...started playing the longer songs." (14:46)

Musical Innovation and Band Dynamics

• Artistry Beyond Commercial Success
  • Earth, Wind & Fire was recognized not just for singles, but as an "album band" whose records were complete musical experiences.
• Jazz & Complexity
  • Their music was rooted in jazz, funk, soul, and beyond. The hard work and discipline in the studio, guided by producers like Charles Stepney, led to their extraordinary cohesion and "cosmic choir" sound.

    "It feels like a party, but it's music...your work more pristine. Every note was right." (24:49–24:45)

• Innovations in Production
  • The impact of working at Caribou Ranch, lengthy rehearsals, and working off the grind allowed for focus and deeper musical exploration.

    "We recorded up there for, like, six weeks...we had a chance to get off the grind." (39:07)

Breakout Moments and Mainstream Crossover

• Cal Jam 1974 and Crossover Success
  • Playing to 200K+ people at Cal Jam, televised on ABC, was pivotal for crossover into wider (white) audiences, at a time when Soul Train was the only TV outlet for Black performers.

    "That was a breakout moment crossover wise...that was a big breakthrough moment." (30:59–31:03)

• Soul Train & the ‘Live’ Debate
  • Refusal to lip sync meant missing out on appearances, which Don Cornelius later called his biggest mistake.

    "Don said the biggest mistake that he made was not having us on Soul Train. Cuz see, we wanted to be on Soul Train. But we wanted to play live." (31:45)

Family, Loss, and Legacy

• Band Changes and Endurance
  • Discusses departures of original members, the addition of Philip Bailey, and later, Fred White (Verdine’s younger brother), who was remarkably talented and contributed to the band’s sound.

    "The original from the first band left...it was just me and Reese." (25:31–25:37) "Philip Bailey joined us...what a voice." (26:06–26:18)

• The Power of Family
  • The family story endures: Verdine’s son and Maurice’s son now help produce the forthcoming documentary, and musical talent continues to run deep.

    "My son Warner is one of the producers of the doc... Cabron, Maurice's son, one of the producers." (71:49–72:08)

Cultural and Industry Reflections

• Navigating Disco, the 'Black Band' Label, and Media Exclusion
  • Earth, Wind & Fire survived and thrived through disco, while bands like the Bee Gees were sidelined by the backlash.
  • Despite massive success, they never made it onto MTV or the covers of Jet or Ebony magazines.

    "We never got mtv. We were never on mtv." (59:59–60:10)

• Hiatus and Rebirth
  • The relentless pace took its toll, especially during the shift to drum machines and 80s production, but fan loyalty brought them back.

    "We didn't really start getting it back together to the late 80s...the audience waited on us." (58:57–59:24)

• Documentary & Legacy
  • A new documentary produced by Questlove is in the works, bringing fresh perspective and richer storytelling to the band's history.

    "We have a documentary coming...that Questlove." (63:46–64:17)

Personal Growth, Influence, and Inspiration

• Maurice White’s Leadership
  • Verdine reflects deeply on his admiration for Maurice, whom he calls his hero, crediting his brother for his own career and growth.

    "He said, man, this thing I'm getting ready to put you into is going to make you a legend. And all I heard was like, legend, legend, legend." (41:27)
    "Well, I wanted to be like him. You know, I admired him and still do. And if it hadn't been for him, I wouldn't be sitting here." (75:01)

• The Enduring Power of the Music
  • Stories of how Earth, Wind & Fire’s music crossed generations, influencing not just Black American culture but listeners—and musicians—of all backgrounds.

    "We've transcended all the media, all the noise, you know, and it's... now everybody likes our music, even if they don't know who we are." (82:05)

---

Memorable Quotes & Moments

• On their unique sound:
  "When you guys are at your absolute peak...there's only one band in the world that sounds like that." (05:04)

• On being genre-defying:
  "There had been other artists that had crossed over, but you guys seemed to just erase the lines." (01:57, 27:33)

• On creative integrity:
  "It's not like you're trying to bend and find the market. Like, the market comes to you." (28:19)

• On learning from Maurice and growing as an artist:
  "He said, I'll teach you everything you need to know out here. Now get here, you. And it was a great way to just start into being an adult and things like that." (19:09)

• On the magic of live performance:
  "It feels like a party, but it's music." (24:49)

• On the absence from Soul Train:
  "We wanted to be on Soul Train. But we wanted to play live... Don said the biggest mistake that he made was not having us on Soul Train." (31:45)

• On the Disco Backlash:
  "Disco got beat up unfairly...a lot of it had a lot to do with disc jockeys." (55:10)

• On legacy and gratitude:
  "You know, and it's, you know, it's a once in a lifetime dream that you get for this...to do the, you know, to do what we do. I mean, it's not like, please, we're so lucky. It's not even funny, you know?" (74:05–74:19)

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Important Segment Timestamps

• 04:19–05:21 | Discussing the DNA of the band and unique qualities
• 06:16–07:10 | Ramsey Lewis’s influence and “paying it forward”
• 10:40–13:45 | Record label transitions, Clive Davis, and the crossover strategies
• 16:09–18:17 | The album band reputation and psychedelic touches
• 23:25–24:45 | Charles Stepney’s mentorship, studio techniques, and musical discipline
• 30:31–32:29 | Cal Jam 74 breakthrough, TV barriers, and Soul Train story
• 41:27–42:01 | Maurice’s promise and the “legend” moment
• 46:47–48:39 | The magic and stage spectacle (magicians, tubes, iconic stagecraft)
• 63:46–66:43 | Maurice’s illness, legacy, and upcoming Questlove documentary
• 75:01–76:19 | Maurice White as Verdine’s hero, siblings in bands, and gratitude

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Tone and Style

The tone is warm, nostalgic, and deeply respectful—full of mutual admiration between Billy Corgan and Verdine White. Both share personal reflections, technical insights, and unfiltered humor ("man, that's the biggest mistake I ever made" – on Soul Train, 32:41). Verdine brings humility and sharp memory to stories ranging from the band’s family roots to their historic moments.

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Listener Takeaways

• The band’s innovation came from deep musicianship, family bonds, and fearless originality—not commercial calculation.
• Cultural context—the Great Migration, Chicago’s music scene, and American racial history—played key roles in Earth, Wind & Fire’s journey and resonance.
• Mentorship, generosity, and honoring those who pave the way is a recurring theme, from Ramsey Lewis to Charles Stepney.
• The enduring intergenerational appeal of Earth, Wind & Fire’s music comes from its heart-centered spirit and sophisticated artistry.
• Their story is ongoing, now including new family generations and renewed attention via documentaries.

---

This episode is essential listening for understanding not just the magic of Earth, Wind & Fire, but the broader story of American music, perseverance, and the power of family and community in artistic greatness.

Transcript

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[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

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[Verdine White]

Mom, can you tell me a story?

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Sure.

[Verdine White]

Once upon a time, a mom needed a new car.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Was she brave?

[Verdine White]

She was tired mostly. But she went to Carvana.com and found

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

a great car at a great price.

[Verdine White]

No secret treasure map required.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Did you have to find a dragon? Nope. She bought it 100% online from her bed, actually.

[Verdine White]

Was it scary?

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Honey, it was as unscary as car buying could be. Did the car have a sunroof?

[Verdine White]

It did, actually.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Okay, good story.

[Verdine White]

Car buying you'll want to tell stories about. Buy your car today on Carvana.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Delivery fees may apply.

[Verdine White]

She said, man, this thing I'm getting ready to put you into is gonna make you a legend. And all I heard was like, magic, magic, magic.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

There was something about earth, wind and fire. It would seem so from another place. I didn't understand it. I loved it. But I was like, wow, this is so fresh.

[Verdine White]

Pound for pound, the music was right there.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

There had been other artists that had crossed over, but you guys seemed to just erase the lines.

[Verdine White]

You know, our deal was what we were doing.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

I mean, the music is unbelievable, but the joy of the band, it's real, man.

[Verdine White]

Man, we musicians.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

That's what we do. Beardene White, thank you so much. You honor me by being here.

[Verdine White]

Thanks.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

So nice to see you again.

[Verdine White]

I was very excited about coming.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Thank you. Tell me if this date strikes you correctly. June of 1970. That's when you came out here at the behest of your brother Maurice to join what became Earth Wind Fire. But was it still called Salt Pepper Trio or.

[Verdine White]

It was the salty peppers.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Salty peppers.

[Verdine White]

But it was transitioning into Earth, Wind and fire. It was. And he had just left Ramsey in 4-19-70.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Yeah.

[Verdine White]

Had been with Ramsey four and a half, five years.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Yeah.

[Verdine White]

And. And then I'm, you know, I'm in college, my first year at the conservatory downtown of Wabash, as you might know.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Yeah.

[Verdine White]

And fellow Chicagoans. Chicago, guys. Chicago. And. And then he asked me, did I want to come to California?

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Yeah. What. What did he sell you on?

[Verdine White]

He didn't have to. He said, you want to come to California and. And be in my band? I said, yeah, sure, you know, and it was. It was a. A life changing moment in a certain kind of way.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Yeah.

[Verdine White]

And it was. It was. It was different, you know, it was. It was. It was. It was different.

[Progressive Insurance Announcer]

And.

[Verdine White]

And I. And I got ready to come.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Yeah.

[Verdine White]

You know. You know, I got ready to come, to get ready. And. And so that was the beginning.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Yeah. But did your brother lay out kind of a musical vision? Did he say, I want to do this? Or is. Was there a languaging to it?

[Verdine White]

No, because I kind of knew what his vision was because I would go to the rehearsals with the other Earth Wind and fired that he was developing Satterfield and Wade Flemings and Don Whitehead. That group People's developing. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

It's interesting because I know the hits, like everybody. But doing my deep dive to get ready for the interview and listening to the early stuff, it strikes me that from the first album, those key elements that made Earth, Wind and Fire a global act, the. They're already in there. They maybe not clear yet, but it's already in there. The horns and the rhythms and the feeling.

[Verdine White]

That's right.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Did you feel that from the beginning that was something different going on.

[Verdine White]

Yeah. Because we wanted to be different, but it didn't really become different to me till later.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Yeah.

[Verdine White]

Actually later.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Yeah.

[Verdine White]

You know.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Yeah. But you can. You can hear those elements. There's like whatever. I don't know. It's. The sound is so identifiable.

[Verdine White]

Right.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

When you guys are at your absolute peak. I mean, there's only one band in the world that sounds like that.

[Verdine White]

Right, right.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Which is interesting because a lot of times, solid R and B, there's a lot of sameness in it.

[Verdine White]

Although we weren't on our peak then. We were just kind of getting it going.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Yeah. No, what I'm saying is it's interesting that the elements are there.

[Verdine White]

Yes, yes.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

And the success didn't come immediately.

[Progressive Insurance Announcer]

No.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

It's not like you put out a Song and then boom. You know, we didn't top of the charts.

[Verdine White]

It was, it was a slow build, but it was a great build.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Yeah. I was lucky to meet Ramsey Lewis one time.

[Verdine White]

Amit Ramsey.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Yeah. Woof. What a gentleman.

[Verdine White]

Yeah. Was he. Wasn't he great?

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

I was just in awe.

[Verdine White]

Yeah, he was, he was, he was great.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

I mean, I was just getting chills just talking about him too.

[Verdine White]

Yeah, man. Ramsey was what a great guy, man. Wow.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

So sweet. Very interested. Somebody said to me, I was at a show and they said, would you like to meet Ramsey Lewis? And I said, well, of course.

[Verdine White]

Right.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

I mean, I don't want to bother him. They said, no, no, come read him. And I came in, he said, oh, oh, hi. And he recognized me. He said, sit down. And we talked for 40 minutes. And one thing that I really remember in the conversation is I didn't know at that point the connection between him and your family.

[Verdine White]

Yes.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

And he told me about the origination years of Earth, Wind and Fire and how he saw something in your brother and he really encouraged that. It was so humbling to hear it from him, you know, as a fan of your music. It was to hear Ramsey Lewis say how he recognized there was something.

[Verdine White]

That's right.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Yeah. It was really humbling to me to hear that.

[Verdine White]

That's right.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

That he had such a personal investment in your guys future.

[Verdine White]

That's right. He sure did. And you know what was interesting? Later on, Maurice ended up giving him a hit record with Sun Goddess.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Well, you say pay it forward.

[Verdine White]

Exactly, man. And then Ramsey ended up going on tour with us. That's so cool. On our tour. So. And Reese and Ramsey was always close. Always close. You know, I could see that they were always close.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Yeah. One other thing about your brother that I knew, but I forgot until I did my research was his connection to

[Verdine White]

Booker T. Yeah, Booker T. They went to school together.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

That's just another crazy connection.

[Verdine White]

That's right. They went, they went to school together.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

As you think of the music that your brother got involved with, obviously you're there with him. But then Booker T. Goes off in his own direction.

[Verdine White]

Right.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

This, Right. Incredible rich musical history.

[Verdine White]

Yeah, they, they grew up together in Memphis.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Yeah.

[Verdine White]

Yeah, man. And then Booker T. Came to la. Reese came to la.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Yeah.

[Verdine White]

Yeah. And then at that time, you know, we're talking about coming to la, that was like the first big explosion in, in the world in, in. In the United States of, of the hippie movement.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Yeah.

[Verdine White]

The. The Black Panther movement, the women's live movement, all at the Same time.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Yeah.

[Verdine White]

And then you had the Woodstock. You had, you know, and you had hippies. See, when I came out here, I saw nothing but hippies. The same things I saw on television, you know, Hippies up close.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Yeah. I mean, there were some hippies in Chicago, but not like out.

[Verdine White]

No, not.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Not like that.

[Verdine White]

I think the hippies in Chicago were trying to be hippies on the north side. Right. That was the hippest part. Right.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

They could afford to be hippies down there.

[Verdine White]

Yeah. Because it was pretty rich up there.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Yeah.

[Verdine White]

But the. The real hippies were out here. Yeah.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

If you don't mind, and if it's not too personal, because. And maybe he tells the story in his book, but this. Why your brother was in Memphis and you were in Chicago.

[Verdine White]

The family circumstance. Same mothers.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Yeah.

[Verdine White]

Different fathers.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Okay.

[Verdine White]

I'm Verdin Jr. From my dad, Verdine Sr.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Okay.

[Verdine White]

And. And what happened was that my mother had Reese when. When he was. When she was young.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Yeah.

[Verdine White]

Like 16, 17, you know, which was.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

It's tough. And that was a different world, too,

[Verdine White]

back then at that time. And. But she would always go visit him, you know, she came up to Chicago because a lot of African Americans came to Chicago for work.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Yeah.

[Verdine White]

You know, the great migration, you know what I mean?

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Well, that's why we had such an incredible history with the blues, because of all the great artists that came up.

[Verdine White]

That's right.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

And they brought it up the south and.

[Verdine White]

That's right. Brought up to the nightclubs and things like that. And. And. And the workers. There was more jobs.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Yeah.

[Verdine White]

Up.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

What kind of work did your mom do?

[Verdine White]

Well, she, I think, was a domestic down there, from what I understand.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Yeah.

[Verdine White]

But then she became an elevator operator where she met my. My father, you know, getting on the elevator and the rest of his.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Going up.

[Verdine White]

Yeah. You're going up. Right, right. And. And nine kids later. Right.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Yeah. Wow.

[Progressive Insurance Announcer]

Right.

[Verdine White]

Wow. Wow.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

I didn't know you came from that. Wow.

[Verdine White]

Yeah, man. Yeah. That's wild. And so it was. So that was kind of like the difference.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Yeah.

[Verdine White]

Why that happened like that, you know?

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Yeah. No, I get it. So back to you coming out here. I saw that you guys did your first album at Sunset Sound. Now, were you. You were in Capitol Records. Is that. Does that.

[Verdine White]

Yeah. Capital Records. Stacks for one of the singles. Capital Records. But the records that we did over at Sunset Sound was under. Under the Warner Brothers.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Oh, okay. Okay.

[Verdine White]

Under the Warner Brothers.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Yeah.

[Verdine White]

Regime at that time, you know, And. And I went to Sunset Sound maybe a few years ago. It looks so Small. It looks so. It used to be so big to me, you know, it looked so small going up that studio ramp up there.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Yeah.

[Verdine White]

The car's in the parking lot.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Oh, yeah.

[Verdine White]

You know, it's still the same. Yeah, yeah. Nothing's changed.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Do you remember what room you guys are in?

[Verdine White]

We were in the big room.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Okay.

[Verdine White]

That big room.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Yeah, yeah.

[Verdine White]

And it was. We cut some good records out of there, too.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Yeah.

[Verdine White]

You know, we cut some good records. That's where Clive Davis came to see us.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Okay.

[Verdine White]

Because we were in a transition, Warner's to Columbia.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Yeah. You two albums, maybe, with the one label situation, with Warner's. Yeah.

[Verdine White]

And then what happened was that Clive came and saw us and saw something and that was it.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

What do you think Clive saw at that. At that moment? Well,

[Verdine White]

he was in the midst of losing Sly Stone, and I think that he wanted another urban group, you know, another black group, you know, And. And. And Clyde being sort of a revolutionary, innovative, doing something that nobody else ever did, brought us on the scene.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Wow.

[Verdine White]

And. And Columbia Records did a great job with us. Put a lot of money behind us, brought us to Europe, gave us the exposure that most African Americans never really got.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Yeah, yeah. He. He always stood behind what he believed in with music.

[Verdine White]

Right.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

For sure. If he believed, he went all in.

[Verdine White]

All in. All in.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Yeah.

[Verdine White]

Yes.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Yeah. There is definitely a shift in. In production and feeling when you guys make that shift, Right?

[Verdine White]

Well, we had time to make the records.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Was that what it was?

[Verdine White]

We didn't have. We didn't have to rush.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Okay.

[Verdine White]

You know what I mean? It was. All we knew was the music.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Yeah. Now there's. I never felt it, but, I mean, I get the overt version of it. And why people would. Because it's what I would call a lazy take. But early on, you guys would compare it to Sly in the Family Stone.

[Verdine White]

Right.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

And that type of stuff. And of course, there were bands that were successful around the time, like Undisputed Truth, you know, there was this.

[Verdine White]

That's right. And then. Don't forget now, Motown was big.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Yeah.

[Verdine White]

So, you know.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Yeah. Motown people, of course, they focus on Motown in the 60s, but Motown in the 70s was still rocking.

[Verdine White]

They were still rocking in the 80s, too. They, you know.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Yeah.

[Verdine White]

Barry had it down, you know what I mean? But then most people thought that most African Americans would go to Motown.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Right.

[Verdine White]

Whereas that wasn't really our deal, you know. Our deal was what we were doing, you know.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Yeah.

[Verdine White]

And. And of course, later on, Barry and Maurice became great friends. Really respectful towards each Other. Yeah. You know, and at. At the time, she. Barry wouldn't have gotten Earth, Wind and Fire. He wouldn't have gotten what that was about. It was too different.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Can you. Can you kind of quantify that a little bit for. For people who maybe don't know the music past the hits or something? Like, what in your. Because, you know, from the inside out, we have a different perception, you know, as you're standing there in 1973 or something. You know, what was it that you thought the band had that was different and. Or voiced differently then? Motown or just anything.

[Verdine White]

It was different. Well, it was different anyway because of the. The work, you know, the work that we did. The music, the musicality. Yeah, it was coming.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

The jazz influences and the samba influences.

[Verdine White]

Right. It was coming a little bit off of jazz. And it wasn't overtly commercial.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

That's true.

[Verdine White]

It was not overtly commercial. And then we hit at the right time when AM&FM radio.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Yeah. Came and started playing the longer songs.

[Verdine White]

Right. The longer. The longer albums. Yeah, the longer tracks, man. Yeah.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

You guys did have a rep for. Because I remember those times. Even though I was young, my father was a huge fan, so I. I heard all the music in the house. But you guys had a rep for being an album band, which was. Which was a compliment.

[Verdine White]

Right.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Like, you weren't just a singles band. Like, you make great albums.

[Verdine White]

Right.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Your albums were worth listening to.

[Verdine White]

Right. It was. It was. I mean, like, musical fair. You know what I mean? I mean, really musical. And it was. It was really great for me because those are my first records.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Yeah.

[Verdine White]

That I had ever done.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Yeah. Wow. Ever done it? Yeah.

[Verdine White]

Ever. Ever done.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

See, you're. You're bringing back memories for me because, you know, as I've said, my dad was a huge fan and he played your music in the house. And I remember the first time I consciously, like, I put on one of your records myself, and I just remember being so shocked because my father only really listened to soul. But there was something about Earth, Wind and Fire, it would seem so. From Another Place. I. I didn't understand it. I loved it, but I was like, wow, this is so fresh.

[Verdine White]

Right.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

The feeling, the production, the. The. The. I don't know, the rhythms and the harmonies, it was just like, wow. Right. Psychedelic.

[Verdine White]

That's right. That's right. So when we got to the Last Days and Times, that was the first record for Clive. That's really when we started to really get it together.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Yeah. Oh, you can hear it.

[Verdine White]

Yeah.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Were you doing a lot of road Work. At that point.

[Verdine White]

We were starting to. Yeah, we were an opening act for everybody. Anybody. Anybody with this stuff. So tell me, everybody.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

I saw where you guys were opening for, like, John Sebastian.

[Verdine White]

That's right. We're open for John. That's right. We're open for John.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Yeah.

[Verdine White]

And Curtis Mayfield.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Not too bad.

[Verdine White]

Not too bad for the beginning.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Did you know Curtis as a person? I mean, did you get to know Curtis personally later? Oh, okay.

[Verdine White]

Maurice knew him.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Yeah.

[Verdine White]

But don't forget, I'm saying I'm 18 years old, so nobody. Nobody want to know me. Nobody got me. Nobody. You know, that's. That's his brother. So anyway, how's the family?

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

You know, I love that you're still the little brother in the band.

[Verdine White]

Exactly. You know, and so. So it was a lot going on.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Yeah.

[Verdine White]

All at the same time.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Yeah. How was the reception of. Let's call it the general public? You know what I mean?

[Verdine White]

It actually was cool.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Yeah. Yeah, it was cool.

[Verdine White]

We were. We were. We were cool.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Yeah.

[Verdine White]

Then I was cool. I started getting cool because I was in a band. I mean, I was actually a real musician.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Yeah.

[Verdine White]

Yeah, man. Were there.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Were there guys that you looked up to on the bass? I mean, your. Your style is very distinctive. So. But, I mean, was there somebody that you thought, wow, like that guy or.

[Verdine White]

Oh, yeah, The. The. The person that taught me. The late, great Louis Satterfield, who played on all of those Chess records. Right. With Maurice.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Yeah.

[Verdine White]

Rescue Me and Fun.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

I saw your brother play drums on that.

[Verdine White]

Yeah. You never saw Reese play live, right?

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

No, no, he was great.

[Verdine White]

Great.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Well, you would know.

[Verdine White]

You're in there. He was great. And he had. He had both things together. He. He had the jazz thing together.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Yeah.

[Verdine White]

And he had the funk thing together and he had the R and B thing together all at once. Whereas, you know, you got. You get guys like the late, great Tony Williams. They were primarily jazz cats.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Yeah.

[Verdine White]

They didn't do a beat right.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

And you know, with those records, if you can't lay it down, that. That record ain't working.

[Verdine White]

No, no, it's not coming out.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

This is not Pro Tools.

[Verdine White]

No, no, that's right. It's not. No, no, no, no.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

This is. It's in there.

[Verdine White]

It's staying right in the pocket.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Yeah.

[Verdine White]

And. And so Maurice had.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

He had.

[Verdine White]

He had both things together.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Yeah. Do you. Do you feel, looking back, I always perceived, as a musician, your brother was kind of like a musical savant?

[Verdine White]

Do you.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Do you. Do you see him in that lighter? You know what I mean?

[Verdine White]

Yeah, you know, he. You know, he knew. He knew his stuff. And. And I know when he called me to come out to California, I said, what about all of my schooling? That's what I was after. I said, yeah, my schooling. He said, I'll teach you everything you need to know out here. Now get here, you. And it was. And it was a great way to just start into being an adult and things like that.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Yeah, Yeah, I. I did see this, and I wanted to bring it up. I didn't know this about your history. Sweet, Sweet backs. Badass song, right? Which is considered the first black exploitation film.

[Verdine White]

That's right.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

As they're commonly known.

[Verdine White]

And it was a huge movie, too. Yeah, it was huge. It was like, for that era of blockbuster.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Well, he shot the movie on his own, kind of on his own. Yeah. Like 19 days and.

[Verdine White]

Yeah, 19 days. On Stax Records.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Yeah.

[Verdine White]

Melvin Van Peeps, Mario's dad. Mario Van Peep was a great director, actor, and Mario was in the movie.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Now, I read this. On set, there were rumors of unsimulated sex scenes. Do you know about this?

[Verdine White]

Well, we weren't on those scenes. We were just doing the music, I would hope. No, no. I don't know if we could have took that, you know, and it had been over. I said, man, I knew we should have came to California. Oh, yeah. You know what I mean? And. But we shot the. The soundtrack in about three days.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Yeah.

[Verdine White]

There are still bass mistakes on there.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Really?

[Verdine White]

Yeah. I remember I got the album as a gift and I put it on. I said, let me see if the mistake is still there. Put it on. I said, it's still there. Because that was the days where you didn't have a lot of time to overdub.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Yeah.

[Verdine White]

You know.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Well, three days.

[Verdine White]

No. The whole band recorded at the same time. Yeah. You know, and. But it was a great experience working with Melvin.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Yeah. That's such a thing. I know that your brother didn't become like, this kind of visionary producer right away. I know you were guys working with a guy named Wissert. Mr. Wissert.

[Verdine White]

Joe Charles Stepney.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

But what. In the beginning, it was Mr. Wissert. Right. And Joe Wissert.

[Verdine White]

Joe. That's right. Joe. At that time, you didn't really have independent African American producers.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

They kind of gave you this guy.

[Verdine White]

They gave you this guy. He was the house producer.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Yeah. Was he encouraging of your brother's sort of.

[Verdine White]

Absolutely.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Production kind of.

[Verdine White]

Joe was very cool. Absolutely. That's cool to hear. But Joe was there to watch. Watch over Us?

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Yeah, yeah.

[Verdine White]

You know you got non black guys in there, man. Might burn the studio down, man. You know what I mean? You know this. You know what I mean?

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

That's a lot of testosterone.

[Verdine White]

That's a lot of testosterone in there, man. You know what I mean?

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

And you know those horn players, you.

[Verdine White]

Yeah, your home players, man, they got

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

a lot of time on their hands.

[Verdine White]

A lot of time. They'll burn the whole place down. And you were talking about you in the black power movement, too. Black power. Um, Go up, burn it down. Right. And take him with you. And so.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

But you brought up Mr. Stepney, too, as well.

[Verdine White]

Yeah, Charles. Charles was. He worked on the. The last season Times record. The other two records we did on our own with Joe.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Yeah.

[Verdine White]

Then Charles really came in there. Came in there really on, on, on Open Our Eyes. Charles was great. He was our Charles. He was Art Quincy Jones.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Yeah.

[Verdine White]

He could play it, he could write it, he could produce it. And he was the only one really, that really Reese listened to.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Okay.

[Verdine White]

I mean, Reese listened to us, you know, like, you know, you know, one end out the other. But Charles knew his stuff. And Charles had worked with Ramsey on the. A great record that Ramsay did of remake of Beetle Songs.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Okay, I need to find that then.

[Verdine White]

Yeah, you got to find, like, Mother's Nature, son.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Yeah.

[Verdine White]

Charles did those records.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Okay. Is it that. Is that. That Mr. Stepney kind of pulled out, like, the sophistication that was kind of hiding there, and then when it was there, then became kind of. Oh, this is.

[Verdine White]

This is absolutely. And. And he taught us a lot.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Yeah.

[Verdine White]

As players. And. And. And he slowed it down. He slowed it down.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Can you explain that a little bit?

[Verdine White]

When we were doing the sweet, sweet back.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Yeah.

[Verdine White]

We never had a chance to overdub.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Right.

[Verdine White]

When we did open our eyes. And that's the way the world. We cut the tracks and step would take us individually and say, okay, I'm gonna need you tomorrow all day. Bring a sandwich. And then he would go over everything that I was missing on the track. You know, he showed me a double stop. He showed me this. He said, now let's try that again. And he said, oh, wow. And. And a compliment that he would give you. He would say, I didn't know you. I didn't know you could play like that. You know, it was so encouraging, and it made the. Your work more pristine. Every note was right, you know, everything was right.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

When I think of you guys, it's like everything's so organized.

[Verdine White]

Right.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

It feels like a party, but it's like everything's like, that's right.

[Verdine White]

It feels like a party, but it's music.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Oh, yeah.

[Verdine White]

And actually, you learn if you try to follow that stuff, you'll be saying, oh, my God.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Yeah. Well, that's why. Because I grew up with a musician father. He would be like, now these guys. You were held up as, like, the shining example of, like, that's music.

[Verdine White]

Right.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Which is cool for me.

[Verdine White]

Yeah.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Because then I would listen, I'd try to understand what it was that he was hearing.

[Verdine White]

Right, man.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Beyond. I like it or I don't like.

[Verdine White]

Right, right.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Explain to me a little bit about. I know we're kind of skipping around time a little bit, but there's this moment where, like, some of the original band kind of leaves. Right.

[Verdine White]

The original from the first band left.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Yeah. So it ends up just being you and your brother.

[Verdine White]

That's right. It was just me and Reese. Wow.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

And was that, like. I don't know. I don't want to project that. But was that, like, you guys were like, it's going the wrong way, or.

[Verdine White]

No, I just don't think there was a meeting of the minds.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

And what did those guys want as opposed to what you guys want?

[Verdine White]

I don't know, because Maurice and them would have meetings, and I was never involved in it.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

He's still the kid brother.

[Verdine White]

Yeah, Yeah. I mean, I didn't know. I didn't know, like. Like, what meeting, what is. And. And so after those things, Philip Bailey joined us.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Right.

[Verdine White]

Who was actually a musical director for another group in. On Warner Brothers.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Okay. What band was that? Do you remember?

[Verdine White]

It'll come to me in a minute. Yeah, yeah. But.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

But, I mean, what a. What a voice.

[Verdine White]

What a voice.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

When I saw you guys a few years ago, I think he was 71 at the time. He was hitting notes that were like.

[Verdine White]

Right.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

It's like, what a voice.

[Verdine White]

Right, Right. Man. And he had a voice then. Still got it, I bet. And. And a wonderful guy, too. Really great guy and great musician.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Yeah.

[Verdine White]

In his own right. Solo artist. In his own right.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

You know, Phil Collins, you know, it's like, oh, yeah, we found Philip Bailey.

[Verdine White]

Exactly. Exactly.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

He was over at the corner, you know, just hanging out.

[Verdine White]

That's right. That's right. But he had moved to Los Angeles.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Yeah. But still, what a beautiful marriage.

[Verdine White]

Absolutely.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Right. I saw this when you guys start figuring out what becomes, like, the quintessential earth, wind and fire sound. I saw where Rolling Stone called it a cosmic choir.

[Verdine White]

Yeah.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

And I like that.

[Verdine White]

Yeah.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Because there was always this kind of celestial quality to music.

[Verdine White]

And, you know, and, you know, it was a big deal for us to get into Rolling Stone magazine. That was. That was like the holy grail at the time. You know, when we got in there, you know what I mean? We said, oh, man, we arrived.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Yeah.

[Verdine White]

You know.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Yeah. I mean, there's definitely. If you look at it from a historical point of view, you guys seem to blow the market wide open. Yes, there had been other artists that had crossed over, but you guys seem to just erase the lines. Did you feel that at the time?

[Verdine White]

Well, I. I knew we were hitting the mark. You know, we were happy we were hitting the mark, but we were hitting the mark with great music, too. It's just like we weren't blowing it open because we blew it open.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Yeah.

[Verdine White]

You know, we blew it open because the music was there.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Well, it's. I mean, you tell me. But going back through your catalog to talk to you, there's no compromise. Do you feel that when I say it like that? It's like you're one of those bands where I don't feel you guys like you're. You're very much doing your trip.

[Verdine White]

Oh, yeah, we're doing our trip. That's right. We were doing our trip.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

It's not like you're gu. Are trying to bend and find the market. Like the market comes to you.

[Verdine White]

That's right. And we had. We had. We had the goods to the. Oh, yeah, we had the goods, man. I mean, the goods.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Your brother Fred White joins.

[Verdine White]

It's Fred. Yes. My. My baby brother. God rest is so. What a wonderful kid. Baby. He's a baby.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Was it hard being in a band as three brothers? Or was it a good thing? Or is it. Is it.

[Verdine White]

It's like, just see, with us, it wasn't that a big of a deal.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Yeah.

[Verdine White]

Reese said, we're going to studio. I said, okay, what time? 2:00 or what time's Freddie get there? I told him two. He'll be there at four. And. And Freddie had played with Donny Hathaway.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Right. I saw that. And somebody I didn't expect. Little Feet.

[Verdine White]

Little Feet. That's right. With Lo. George.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Wow.

[Verdine White]

With Low George. You know, George.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Wow. That's his cool musician.

[Verdine White]

That's. That's some different. With Lil George, man.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

That was a great group that. That Louisiana kind of.

[Verdine White]

Yeah, man. That was great. You know what I mean? And that's cool. Luffy was regrouping. Lowell was great, man. Really underrated. Still underrated. Yeah.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Wow.

[Verdine White]

And. And Fred Was keep the pocket. And then as Maurice started transitioning more as a producer, Fred did the drums.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Right.

[Verdine White]

Things like that. And one thing about Freddie, which I was always like, sort of envious and jealous of him. When Maurice would play the tracks before we go in the studio. Like Freddie wouldn't like, you know, how this a demo of the song. Blah, blah, blah. Freddie wouldn't show up for the demos. I'd be there listening, trying to get it together, trying to get it. Reese played the track right before we cut it. Freddie could remember it the first time down. First time down. And he wasn't even there. And I'd have to list. I said I had to take it home.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Yeah, yeah.

[Verdine White]

I got this in the car. I got to get into it. I got to, you know, I got to have a cassette deck at the time, out of bed so, you know, so I can get in there. Nailed, you know. But he was so brilliant, so young.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Some guys are just like that, right?

[Verdine White]

Yeah, he just had it down.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Yeah. I saw when you guys played Cal Jam 74, which is a legendary California jam. Yeah.

[Verdine White]

Yes.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Day of music, 200, 250,000 people live on ABC, right?

[Verdine White]

Yes.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

I went and watched you guys playing. There you are in your yellow pants. Just.

[Verdine White]

Yeah. And my wife patting other shoes. You know what I mean?

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Was that kind of a. I don't want to be overly simplistic, but was that kind of a breakout moment or is that. Is that.

[Verdine White]

That was a breakout moment crossover wise?

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Okay. That's kind of what I was after

[Verdine White]

to the African American public. We were, we were known, you know, on all the Black stations, the DJs, the records, things like that. But with that, that was a big break through moment because we only had Soul Train. That's all we had.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

That was it.

[Verdine White]

That was it. And.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

And sadly for a lot of great African American artists, that was it.

[Verdine White]

That was.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

It was Soul Train.

[Verdine White]

And. And it was limiting.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

What was the gentleman's name? Who?

[Verdine White]

Don Cornelius.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Don Cornelius.

[Verdine White]

And Don was a dj, right?

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

What a voice, right.

[Verdine White]

In Chicago owned wvon.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

That's right.

[Verdine White]

The voice of the negro. Right, right.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

And well, I mean, to me, Don was the pathway by which. Which I found great soul music.

[Verdine White]

Right. And later on, Don said the biggest mistake that he made was not having us on Soul Train. Cuz see, we wanted to be on Soul Train.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

I bet.

[Verdine White]

But we wanted to play live.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

James Brown played live on Soul Train.

[Verdine White]

Right. And. But Don wouldn't let us play live.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Any reason. Just because I mentioned.

[Verdine White]

And looking back at it, maybe we should have lip sync, because that's what everybody else is doing.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Yeah.

[Verdine White]

You know, I mean, we. But don't forget that we were elitist.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Well.

[Verdine White]

And then rightly so. And we had that kind of music that you. This. This music is too good to be pretending to play.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Yeah.

[Verdine White]

On a record.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Yeah. Same for us. When we asked to lip sync, we always think like we said.

[Verdine White]

Nah, nah, man. Man, we play, man. Man, we musicians.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

That's what we do.

[Verdine White]

You know what I mean? We. We. We don't need no record, you know? No. No tape. You're right. So. But Don was a good guy. And. And he always came over, he said, man, that's the biggest mistake I ever

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

made, you know, especially when you guys got huge.

[Verdine White]

Right, because nobody knew. No one knows how big anybody's going to get.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Yeah, but you guys got really big. Cal Jam. You guys played with the Eagles, Seals and Crofts.

[Verdine White]

That's right.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Black Sabbath. Deep Purple.

[Verdine White]

Right.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

And Emerson, Lake and Palm.

[Verdine White]

Yeah. Elp. Right. Yeah, man, I remember them guys, man. Right, right, right, right. That was a. That was a great show. We were.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

It's legendary now that. That day is legendary.

[Verdine White]

I think we were number two on the bill.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Yes. I think you followed Steven Cross. Steals. And Cross.

[Verdine White]

We found Susan Cross. Right. Yeah. And. And, you know, now you have laminates. Right. And at that time, it was a little strict, you know, that concert was a little strict backstage. I bet the politics. So you wore the laminate with a number on it. That let them know. Okay, you came on, too.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Oh, I see.

[Verdine White]

When you get off, you got to get out of there.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Okay.

[Verdine White]

Right.

[Progressive Insurance Announcer]

So.

[Verdine White]

So that's what happened with that particular.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

So you didn't get to see the show?

[Verdine White]

No, because they wouldn't let us see it.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Oh, my goodness.

[Verdine White]

They wouldn't let us come out and see the show.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Yeah, they could.

[Verdine White]

They couldn't.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

There's this famous clip where Richie Blackmore, the guitar player for. For D Purple, rams his. He was mad about the. I guess the show was running late or something. So he. Do you ever see this clip?

[Verdine White]

No.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

He takes his guitar and he rams it through the lens of the camera. Like, for real? Like, wow. Yeah, for real. And then he lights his amps on fire.

[Verdine White]

Oh, okay.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

You guys missed all that?

[Verdine White]

No, we missed out. And. And, and, and we weren't into that stuff. No way. You know what I mean? We couldn't. We couldn't. We couldn't ran nothing and, you know, you couldn't afford anything. We couldn't afford it.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

That's Right. You know that's right. Every time I ever broke a guitar, I was like, do I really want to pay for another one?

[Verdine White]

That's right.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Is it true that you talked about that's the Way of the World album? But it's true that it was supposed to be for a movie, and you guys saw the movie and thought the movie was going to be a bomb and.

[Verdine White]

Oh, that's where the world.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Yeah. Can you. Can you. Is that a true story?

[Verdine White]

That's the way the world was. Sick Shore and Sick Shore had produced Superfly, Okay. And of course, that record was big. Hello. So we figured, oh, we're going to be with Sick Shaw. Great. Super. And so we shot them the movie. And it was Harvey Keitel's first movie.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Okay.

[Verdine White]

Harvey's first movie. You know, before all the.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Yeah. Hoopla.

[Verdine White]

The hoopla. And. And he plays a producer, okay. That's trying to break a black act.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Okay.

[Verdine White]

That was the premise of it. And you're.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

And you guys are the act.

[Verdine White]

We were there.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Okay. I'd never seen the movie. That's why.

[Verdine White]

Yeah. We were called that. Earth on Fire. We were called the Group.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

The Group.

[Verdine White]

Right.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

That's weird.

[Verdine White]

Weird, isn't it?

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Yeah.

[Verdine White]

Corny. Right, Right. And. But the record was so good.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Hello.

[Verdine White]

I mean, it was so good. And. And we saw a rough cut at an editing place, Editel on Highland and watched a movie. And. I said, oh, my God. I started crying. I mean, I was like, you know, I said, oh, my God. You know. But I was assured that it was going to be good because Columbia Records was all geared up. They weren't even thinking about the movie because they were going to. Blake. They were going to break it black anyway.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Okay.

[Verdine White]

You know.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Yeah.

[Verdine White]

They weren't thinking about.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Yeah, pop.

[Verdine White]

But the record ended up taking off. It ended up being huge. Shining Star.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Hello. You know, number one album. Number one song.

[Verdine White]

Right.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

I think, if you correct me, but I think you guys were the first American. African American act to have both. Both at the same time.

[Verdine White]

At the same time.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

That's.

[Verdine White]

I mean, at the same time, when

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

my album went number one, I asked my manager, is there any higher position? You know what I mean? Because when you're at the top, it's like. That's right. Have we actually arrived?

[Verdine White]

That's right. That's right.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

And you're like, at that point, you're what, 24, 25 years old?

[Verdine White]

24.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Not bad. You're doing all right.

[Verdine White]

That was doing all right.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

I was.

[Verdine White]

I was 24, and I had just Bought my first cool car.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Do you remember what it was?

[Verdine White]

My first cool car. A Datsun 280Z.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Okay.

[Verdine White]

Silver AM, FM radio, black leather seats.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Ain't no. A Track 75.

[Verdine White]

No, it's a cassette.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Okay, Cassette. Okay. Because cassette was the new thing.

[Verdine White]

The new thing.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

That's right.

[Verdine White]

Eight track was the old thing.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Yes.

[Verdine White]

For the bigger cars and Caddies and all that stuff.

[Progressive Insurance Announcer]

Right.

[Verdine White]

The bigger, bigger Caddies. Right. Yeah. You cannot write your name, your address on that day track. Right. But, yeah, it was. It was a watershed moment.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Yeah.

[Verdine White]

Columbia Records did a great job.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Yeah.

[Verdine White]

Pound for pound of music was right there.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Well, Shining Star, that's the first time I consciously knew there was this group and they were making this music. I mean, I'd heard the music, but it was like, now it was my music because, like, we had a 45 of shining star.

[Verdine White]

Right.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

And I remember just listening to this record, thinking, how do you make that sound? Because I love sound. That's like something that's personal to me, you know, the sound of a record.

[Verdine White]

Right.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

And I just think. I kept thinking, and George.

[Verdine White]

George Massenburg, engineer. Oh, my. George.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Well, hello. But I mean, the sound of that.

[Verdine White]

Yes.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

That record. Like, what is this? Because I'd heard soul music my whole life.

[Verdine White]

Right.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

But this was some other stuff, like what's going on. The crispness, the rhythm, the sound of the voices, the horns, just.

[Verdine White]

And we recorded it at Caribou.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Right?

[Verdine White]

Caribou Ranch. Jim Garcia.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Right. From Chicago.

[Verdine White]

From Chicago. At Chicago.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Yeah.

[Verdine White]

Blood, Sweat and Tears.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Yeah.

[Verdine White]

So we recorded up there for, like, six weeks. We stayed there six weeks. And it was good for us because we had a chance to kind of get off the grind.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Yeah.

[Verdine White]

You know, focus, Focus. Stay in one place every day.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Yeah.

[Verdine White]

You know, be around the mountains and things like that.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Yeah. Wow. How did you. I mean, that's a. That's a heady age to get a lot of success. Were you cool with it? Did it go to your head? Like, how did you. How'd you feel about it?

[Verdine White]

I was cool with it. Some of it was heady.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

I know it goes every Sunday. Everybody wants to know your name and hang out with you and.

[Verdine White]

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I did hang out because I went to a lot of the clubs. The Whiskey, the Rainbow.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

From Chicago.

[Verdine White]

From Chicago.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Oh, I mean, Chicago.

[Verdine White]

The Roxy. Yeah. The Roxy came a little bit later.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Yeah.

[Verdine White]

I went to the clubs.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Yeah.

[Verdine White]

Because that's where all the music was at.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Well, you're young.

[Verdine White]

I mean, I've been all the clubs. I want to play the music. I want to hang out. You know what I mean? I never did the drug thing. I was very lucky with that. I never.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Especially those years in the 70s.

[Verdine White]

Yeah. Out there, it was. It was. Every drug you could imagine was there.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Yeah.

[Verdine White]

And it was going in different successions, you know, it was going from like, you know, weed, marijuana, to. To. To freebase to this. It was moving. Well, it started with psychedelics.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Yeah.

[Verdine White]

You know, sort of with the psychedelic era.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Yeah.

[Verdine White]

You know what I mean? And I was very, very careful. And what. And what kept me together was fear.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Sometimes that works, right?

[Verdine White]

It worked great.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Yeah.

[Verdine White]

And respecting Maurice, because he had worked so hard and he took a skinny kit and put him in his band.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Yeah.

[Verdine White]

And he kept his promise, he said. Because I know. He used to tell me, he said, man, When we signed with Clive and we got their first big contract, we were rooming together, and he knocked on the door and reset a deep voice. He said, man, this thing I'm getting ready to put you into is going to make you a legend. And all I heard was like, legend, legend, legend. You know, And I didn't want to. I didn't want to disappoint him, you know, I mean, because he. He took a risk for all of us.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Yeah, all of us. I get it. Okay. So now things are cooking. He starts Kalimber Productions, and there's that. Great. Is it Denise Williams?

[Verdine White]

Niecy. Right.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Yeah.

[Verdine White]

Great record.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

That record is.

[Verdine White]

Had that record come out later, it would have got nominated for a Grammy. She came out early, before the Grammys got its act together. Yeah, the act. The Grammys didn't really get his act.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

We could argue they still haven't gotten their act together, but, yes, that's.

[Verdine White]

We can. We can. Can we. They hadn't gotten their act together in terms of African American acts. The Grammys really got their act together, where people had a chance to notice it when Michael Jackson.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Yeah.

[Verdine White]

And Stevie.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Yeah.

[Verdine White]

You know, we got Grammys, but nobody knew about it.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Right.

[Verdine White]

You know, we got Grammys, and, you know, now you get a Grammys, and the winner is Earth. When the fire. You're sitting right in the front. You go right up, you know, then. And the winner is Earth. When the fire. They're in. Up in aisle Z, seat 43. And then you start saying, well, how are we going to get down there? You're not.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

They don't want you out.

[Verdine White]

They didn't want you up there.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

But listen to that. That. This is Nisi. I mean. And I. It struck me because I. I Knew the music a little bit, but what struck me was like, that's like Neo. Neo, what they would call Neo soul later, but like, 20 years before it gets there.

[Verdine White]

Right?

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Like, you guys were like, you guys were so broad in your. In your ability. Like, you guys are hitting this almost like a totally different home run with a different artist.

[Verdine White]

Right?

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Man, that's different than Earth, Wind and Fires vibe, which is a totally other game over here.

[Verdine White]

Right.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

It just strikes me like, wow, you guys fire. Excuse the pun, but yeah, man.

[Verdine White]

Yeah. Yeah. Wow. That was a great record.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

And I. And I listened to the track and I was like, I sure hope you're playing on this, because I want to talk to you about it.

[Verdine White]

Yeah. No, and that's me. Yeah, no, that is me. And wow.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

That whole thing is just. Wow.

[Verdine White]

That's a superb record.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Isn't it cool when you look back and you just see, like, there's just magic going on. Right?

[Verdine White]

Yeah, man. And she sounded so wonderful.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

What a singer.

[Verdine White]

You know, a great singer. She was with Stevie Wonder verse, though, in Wonderlove.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Okay, I didn't know that.

[Verdine White]

Yes. And. And then Stepney heard her voice, and Niecy was doing the demos for the Emotions.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Okay.

[Verdine White]

And then Reese. And then Step told Reese, man, we ought to record her too, and. And they recorded Niecy as well as the Emotions.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Wow.

[Verdine White]

Yes.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Emotions from Chicago just rocking. You guys are just rocking. It's just. It blows my mind because I don't want to overstate it, but my father so badly wanted to be successful, so all I heard about in the 70s was how difficult the music business was. You know what I mean? So I know maybe firsthand what it took for you guys to be that successful, particularly as an African American group in America at that time. Like, I understand it. Like, I. Sure, I saw I had, like, almost like a front row seat.

[Verdine White]

Sure.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

You know, because my father mostly played in groups with African Americans. He wanted nothing to do with white music.

[Verdine White]

Okay.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

So he was like, you know the joke I always make? He was the white guy in the black band. He wanted nothing to do with white music.

[Verdine White]

Okay.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

And he would tell me, this is where it's at. This is the best music. So that's what I'm saying. When he held up your records, he, like, he meant it. He wasn't just a fan. He was like, this is. This is the music. This is the kind of music I want to make.

[Verdine White]

Right.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

And I. You probably wouldn't remember, but when we first met, my father literally picked up the bass because of You.

[Verdine White]

Oh, wow.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Yeah. For real. And he was a really good guitar player. Wow. Something about the way you played made him want to play bass. So then he became a really good bass player, too.

[Verdine White]

Wow.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

So it blew my mind because, like, my dad was really good, and suddenly he's playing all this crazy on bass, and I'm like, wow, why are you playing like this? He's like, I want to be like Verdin.

[Verdine White]

Wow.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Yeah. So I'm sitting there watching him play in the living room, like, trying to be Verde.

[Verdine White]

Wow, man.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Oh, yeah. For real.

[Verdine White]

Wow.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Yeah. Cool.

[Verdine White]

Bam.

[Progressive Insurance Announcer]

Yeah.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

That's why I get chills, because I. I was there even though I was a kid. I don't. Like, I understand now because I'm old, but at the time, I'm like, I don't know. I don't know what I'm connecting to, but I feel it.

[Verdine White]

Right.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

I'm hearing your music. I like your music. I'm listening to your music on my own. And here's my dad in the living room trying to play like Verdin.

[Verdine White]

Wow.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

So when you say, why you want to talk to me? That's why I want to talk to you.

[Verdine White]

Yeah, man. No, but when I got your Carl, I said, oh, man, I gotta do this, man.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

God bless you.

[Verdine White]

I said, he's the man, man. And he's hip. He knows what's going on.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

I understand. Tell me from the inside out, because, you know, as a kid, you know, there you. There you guys are with the pyramids.

[Verdine White]

Yeah.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

You know, the kind of the mystical Earth, Wind and fire, which I loved. I always thought it was so cool. But, like, from the inside out, like, was that somebody's idea or.

[Verdine White]

It was, but we always had these great ideas. But that idea crystallized with Doug Henning the magician.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

By the way, when I read that you guys worked with Doug Henning and David Copperfield, I was like, wow, this is really out there.

[Verdine White]

Yeah.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Because Doug Henning was the biggest magician of the seventies. He was on TV all the time.

[Verdine White]

Right.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

You remember magic.

[Verdine White]

Exactly. And he was from Canada.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Okay. I had to know that.

[Verdine White]

Yeah. So when he would tell us, you know, we're going to go out and about, that's where he would talk. And. But he was a great artist. And then we were. We were also, at the particular time, George Faison, the choreographer, director, that put the pieces together of Doug's ideas.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Okay.

[Verdine White]

He put them. He put those pieces together.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

But whose idea was it to sort of. I'm not saying you made a shift, but suddenly it seems like somewhere Else the famous image of you guys at that time becomes like the look of the band.

[Verdine White]

Yeah. We called that the tube show because the tubes came down and we were

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

like, oh, I'm laughing because it's our go, please finish.

[Verdine White]

But then we were in these things that came up. So when it go down, all of a sudden we appear in the tubes, you know, and Doug put it together. But George Faison really choreographed it really beautifully and directed. And that show was a hard show to do. We rehearsed that show, man, for like six months.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Really. That's a lot of time to burn.

[Verdine White]

Yeah, you wouldn't get that at all in today's market. You're lucky to get six days, you know, to rehearse, you know, because we had to do the music first, then we had to do the choreography, which was hard because we did two choreography sessions. One that started at 11, no, 10:30 to. To 1:30, took a two hour break for lunch. Then we get into the evening part, like, you know, six o' clock on.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Wow.

[Verdine White]

Yeah, man, that was. That was for the show, the big show.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Wow.

[Verdine White]

Yeah.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

The reason I'm laughing is because I remember one day my teacher, I don't remember what grade, but I would have been whatever. The year would have been like 9, 10 years old. And the teacher said, she's going to go see you guys play live. And I was so jealous, you know. So after she saw you guys play live, I said, how was the show? And she goes, well, they came down in these tubes, right? So I always remembered that story. And then when I saw the Spinal Tap movie, there's that bit where the guy gets stuck in the pod, right. And I always wonder if that was like a. Like a. Like a. Like a rib on you, you guys, with the tube.

[Verdine White]

It could have been. It could have been.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

I wonder if they got that from you.

[Verdine White]

It could have been. They might have.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

And.

[Verdine White]

And the thing about it, the rehearsals were closed, okay. Nobody got in those rehearsals. You couldn't, you know, you couldn't get no rehearsals.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

It's because you didn't want anybody to know.

[Verdine White]

That's right. Because don't forget now, we were an African American group.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

And.

[Verdine White]

And with us, we didn't, you know, now there's more latitude. We were afraid that our ideas were going to get stolen.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Yeah.

[Verdine White]

You know, and we wouldn't. And we wouldn't be able to do it. I see that we would get stolen. So we locked everything.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Oh, wow.

[Verdine White]

No, but then you didn't have cameras then. But we didn't Let anybody in. We didn't really do that in the studio either. You know, I mean, we didn't like, you know, let a lot of people in the studio watching.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Yeah, I'd forgotten. But of course, it makes total sense, you guys being in the sergeant Peppers movie. I'd forgotten you guys were in there. And you had the biggest single from that movie.

[Verdine White]

That's right.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Um. Any reflections? Because that movie's kind of considered an interesting moment in time.

[Verdine White]

Okay.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Everybody assumed it was going to be a big movie and turned out to be kind of a bomb.

[Verdine White]

Yeah. Everybody thought it was going to be a big movie, but, you know, we learned from the. That's the Way the world.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Yeah.

[Verdine White]

Record about that record.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Verdine White]

Because when we did sergeant Pepper, it was Billy Preston, the Bee Gees, Peter Frampton. Peter. Peter, who was a good friend of Maurice's, by the way.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Oh, I didn't know that.

[Verdine White]

Peter was. And great guy.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Aerosmith.

[Verdine White]

Aerosmith, Right, Stephen.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

The Bee Gees. Of course, the Bee Gees.

[Verdine White]

And we were just sort of like the black thing to throw into the movie.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

If it's. If it's not a strange question to ask when you guys face those types of situations and you knew that's kind of what they were doing. Were you cool with it or are you just. I. I don't. I don't know what it must feel like, but it seems to be like, how do you. How do you still go into a situation with full enthusiasm if you feel like.

[Verdine White]

Just go. You know, because, you know, our ego was so big and we had had all those hits, so we said, we don't care.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Okay.

[Verdine White]

You know, but we did that. We did. Sergeant The. Sergeant Pepper. Got to get you in my life.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Yeah.

[Verdine White]

And what a great. And we.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

McCartney said it's maybe his favorite.

[Verdine White]

Yeah. Yeah. George Harrison came up to me and said he thought that was a great rendition. And I was. Oh, my God. And.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Nice compliment.

[Verdine White]

It turned out to be a number one song.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Yeah.

[Verdine White]

Great song. But what we did, we put the single out before the movie came out

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

because you'd learned your lesson on the other.

[Verdine White]

We learned a lesson on that other one.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Yeah.

[Verdine White]

And it was the number one record before the movie came out.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

I see.

[Verdine White]

So we didn't depend on that movie making the record a big hit.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Smart. And did you know it was going to be a. I don't want to say it was a bomb, but did you know it was. The movie didn't click before. Did you see it before it came out?

[Verdine White]

Yeah, we did see it.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Yeah. How'd you feel about it when you saw it before?

[Verdine White]

We knew it was not going to be a hit because when we were singing, everything was out of sync. We said, oh, that's the kiss of death.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Yeah.

[Verdine White]

You know what I mean? But we didn't really worry too much about it, you know, it was like. It didn't feel like it was. It was a lot of hype. A lot of hype, you know, particularly. And it was really about the Bee Gees at that time.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Yeah. It really hurt the Bee Gees.

[Verdine White]

Yeah. Because it was.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

They had so much momentum. It was the first thing they did where, you know. Because they had that crazy momentum.

[Verdine White]

Oh, my God.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Around a roll.

[Verdine White]

Yeah.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

It seemed like everything just kind of stuck. Stopped.

[Verdine White]

Well, because I think with the movie. It was a kitty movie. It was like, for kids. It wasn't really like, you know, and. And. And the BJ's were doing some adult records, man. They were doing some How Deep is your Love and Too much Heaven. When you listen to those records, man, those guys, they did some great records.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

It's unfair. Some of those productions, those vocal stacks.

[Verdine White]

And Maurice and I used to listen to their records. I remember he brought a record of their house over to the house of their records. He said, man, you gotta listen to this, you know, really great records. Barry Gibb as a producer.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

I think Barry, outside of George Martin. Barry has more number ones than anybody else ever.

[Verdine White]

You see what I'm saying?

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Yeah.

[Verdine White]

And then the things that Barry did with Barbra Streisand.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Yeah.

[Verdine White]

You know, Guilty. Yeah, that's it. You know, all that good stuff that he did with Streisand.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Great, great producer.

[Verdine White]

Yeah. They were just. Well, you know, commercialism sometimes can box you in.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Yeah. Well, it's kind of where I'm jumping starting. But it's like you guys, where a lot of bands were really hurt by disco.

[Verdine White]

Right.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

You guys just kind of cruised through because you already were. Dance was part of what you did.

[Verdine White]

Right.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

It didn't hurt you. Like, the Bee Gees were considered a kind of a credible rock act.

[Verdine White]

Right.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

But the disco thing ultimately ended up hurting them. Of course, now this weather Legends. But there was that whole period when. When the rock crowd turned against disco.

[Verdine White]

Yeah. Well, what I think what happened. Disco got beat up unfairly.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

You know, it started in Chicago.

[Verdine White]

Right. Right in the Comiskey Park.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

That was Steve Dawson's records. I was listening the whole time. He went on for about two years on the radio about disco sucks. Disco sucks. But he was just a Local DJ on a rock station. Okay. Somehow he convinced the White Sox to do that event. We're going to blow up all the disco records. So if you brought a disco record, you got into the game for free. They put all the disco records in a pile, and they blew it up. Well, they blew a hole in the field, which was bad enough. And then all the fans that still had some disco records with them started throwing the records at the field. And it's one of the only games that's ever been forfeited by a team. The White Sox lost the game that they didn't play because the fans were throwing the records at the players on the field.

[Verdine White]

Right. And see, and in a way, that was unfair, too, because don't forget now, a lot of it had a lot to do with disc jockeys, because don't forget now, the only records that were able to get on the air were disco records at that time, you know, it was like everything was four on the floor.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Yeah.

[Verdine White]

Four on the floor. So regular songs weren't getting played.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

I see.

[Verdine White]

Even Neil diamond did a record with four on the floor. Forever, Forever in blue jeans, baby. That's all you heard on radio.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Yeah.

[Verdine White]

And I think it hurt anybody that said, I'm a disco guy.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

I see.

[Verdine White]

Don't forget now, part of disco was the platform shoes was a big afros, you know, So I think it hurt it. I think it, it. It hurt them because they had the tag of disco.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Yeah.

[Verdine White]

Whereas if you really get into their records, man, they did some great records.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Yeah. Did you feel there was any toll from all this success? Did you. Did you guys wear down? Because there's this point where you guys take a hiatus. I know it's in the 80s, but.

[Verdine White]

Right. 83. Right.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Yeah. But is there. I don't say the cracks appear anywhere, or is it just. Are you guys just running headlong?

[Verdine White]

I think we just was running headlong, man. You know, no breaks, no sleep. I mean, we were knocking them records out, man. I mean, knocking them out. I mean, every day. Every day. And then, don't forget now, we were part of the cultural change. You know, we were part of that big. That big culture wave.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Yeah.

[Verdine White]

You know, we were part of that whole thing that was moving, you know?

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Yeah.

[Verdine White]

You know, so. Oh, absolutely. You know, I think it took a toll on Reese.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Yeah.

[Verdine White]

You know, but you were cool with

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

it, or I'm just asking you to reflect on the time a little.

[Verdine White]

I think we didn't really, really have a choice.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

I see.

[Verdine White]

You know what I mean? I Think it just. And don't forget, a lot of other things was converging. The music was changing.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Yeah.

[Verdine White]

It was going from real drums to drum machines.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Yeah. You guys made kind of a 80s kind of drum type of record.

[Verdine White]

Right. Which really, actually, in retrospect, probably was a mistake.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Well, it's weird to hear a record where you're not really playing. And if you are.

[Verdine White]

That's right.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

The synth is loud. The synth is louder than the bass.

[Verdine White]

Yeah. So.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Yeah.

[Verdine White]

And if you listen to every 80s record, you can tell. Every 80s record. Drum machines. Remember that sound.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

I kind of like that sound.

[Verdine White]

Right. You know, and so I do think it took a toll on all of us.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Yeah.

[Verdine White]

And I think that era. It took a toll on that era, too. Because when you really look back at it, you know, like, we're talking about our work, which is really primarily 70s work, things like that. We don't talk about the 80s that much. Yeah, the 80s don't get no love.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Yeah. Yeah. I wasn't as familiar with some of your 80s records. I went and listened to.

[Verdine White]

Yeah. I don't think we had a hit in the 80s.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Not that I remember.

[Verdine White]

No. We didn't really start getting it back together to the late 80s.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

But what's weird to me is I listen to some of that stuff and the music's still good. It's not like. I think, like, you know, sometimes you listen to a band you love and then you hit the. They hit that weird wall and you

[Verdine White]

think, like, oh, you said, oh, my God, cut it off.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

But not with you guys.

[Verdine White]

No, we were pretty lucky. We were very lucky. And then also, too, one of the things that we had. We were fortunate that the audience waited on us to get it together.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Do you think it was just a deep loyalty that they had with you?

[Verdine White]

I think we had done such really good work. And there were not a lot of African American acts that big, so they waited on us.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Okay.

[Verdine White]

The acts that I thought that. Really great. Of course, Michael.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Yeah.

[Verdine White]

You know, blew through the roof.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Prince, of course.

[Verdine White]

Prince, Lionel.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

I mean, on some level, there must be a level of pride because you inspired this. This other wave that came.

[Verdine White]

Absolutely. Now, the one thing that they got that we never got. We never got mtv. We were never on mtv.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Wow. Even in the heyday.

[Verdine White]

Never.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

That's my jaw dropping on the floor.

[Verdine White]

Never.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

How is that possible?

[Verdine White]

Who knows?

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Wow. That's crazy.

[Verdine White]

We would never. We never got on mtv. Would you believe we never got the COVID of ebony?

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

That's. That's even more John.

[Verdine White]

More George. Right. And then we never got the COVID of JET magazine. And JET should have been easy because that mostly the guys would get the Jet magazine to look at the pin up girl in the middle, you know, at the music, at the newsstand they were good at. And an age said, oh, that was Jet magazine.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Even was in Jet in Chicago.

[Verdine White]

Yes.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Right. You didn't even have the hometown advantage.

[Progressive Insurance Announcer]

Right.

[Verdine White]

And so. So we didn't really get too much love, but when we started, the world started changing again. Yeah. Getting more urban again.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Yeah.

[Verdine White]

You know, we were right there.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Wow. That's crazy to me. Talk about this however you like, but I kind of remember it. But then reading it out, your brother goes off, starts producing Neil Diamond Streisand. Philip Bailey starts to go solo. He's a huge solo artist. You did some production work. Did you see that as just sort of like, you know, the world is expanding because of your success and. But did it feel like the band was falling apart? Did it feel like everybody was still on the same page?

[Verdine White]

It felt. It felt a little bit of both falling apart and together. And we were still creative, though, you know, we were still doing some great work. I've worked with Mark King, level 42, great bass player.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Oh, yeah.

[Verdine White]

Oh, my God. And. But we were still growing. Don't forget that we were only in our early 30s.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Yeah. But, you know, the music business can be cruel that way. It can, you know, if suddenly the wind blows a little bit different.

[Verdine White]

Right.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

You know, you guys still have all this stuff going on.

[Verdine White]

Right.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Like, it's not like, you know, the phone stopped ringing you.

[Verdine White]

Right.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

You guys are busy. But even I was surprised. And. And I'm not looking for gossip. I don't really do gossip. But, like, you know, I. I thought for sure, like, if your brother was producing Streisand, that you would have been on the record. I didn't see your name on the record.

[Verdine White]

Right, right.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

So it wasn't. Again, I'm not looking for gossip. It's just like. Is it just everybody gets busy and kind of.

[Verdine White]

No, I just think he had his own production thing he wanted to do. I think he wanted to expand, you know, and work with other artists, other musicians and things like that. And of course, we end up working together again anyway. Oh, sure. You know, but that's par for the course.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Yeah. Okay. I was just curious about that. When your brother explain the sequence where your brother figures out he's got Parkinson's and he kind of semi retires from the stage. Can you kind of walk me through that a little bit.

[Verdine White]

Well, when he said he had Parkinson's, I didn't know what Parkinson's was, really, to be honest. None of us knew. And then he decided not to tour, but he still was involved, you know, because his ideas were still there.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Yeah.

[Verdine White]

He still was in the studio with us, you know what I mean? And. And he had it for a long time. You only had it for a long time.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Yeah.

[Verdine White]

You know, and he. You know, he did a great job. He didn't do. Reese did a hell of a job. A hell of a job. I mean, he really. He laid it down, man. He laid it down. You know what I mean? He really. He stuck to his convictions. That's what I love about him, you know, as a person, too.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Yeah.

[Verdine White]

You know? You know, and the thing about it is, he was there to get all of the honors, you know what I mean, that he deserved. And, of course, we got Kennedy center honors, too.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Yeah.

[Verdine White]

And. And I love the fact when LL Cool J said, we love Earth Wind Fire, and let us not forget Maurice. Maurice, you know, all the people from the south calling Maurice. You know what I mean? So Reese got his. He did get his. You know what I mean? And he's getting it again because, you know, we have a documentary coming.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Oh, I didn't know that.

[Verdine White]

Yeah, man, that Questlove.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Oh, that's gonna be amazing.

[Verdine White]

It's gonna be good.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

I saw the Sly one. I thought. I was very impressed.

[Verdine White]

Yeah, well, we're right after that, you know what I mean? And it's really good.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

I thought it was interesting with. With the Sly doc on Questlove. I know Questlove just a little bit. You know, I met him through the years, and he's always been very, very kind to me. So as. You know, sometimes when you know somebody, even just a little bit, you're willing to kind of take the ride, maybe because you think, like, hey, we're fellow soldiers in this game. Now he's moving in the dock space. I kind of want to see what he's got.

[Verdine White]

Right.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

And he. You know, if you remember the, the, the. The. The. The. The title of the Sly doc is like, the. The Burden of Black Genius or something like that.

[Verdine White]

Okay.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

I don't know that it's called, like, Sly Stone, the Burden of Black Genius or something.

[Verdine White]

Okay.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

And he talks, or at least the doc sort of basically points. Sly's obviously had huge drug issues, but he said a lot of it was the expectations of the African American community on Sly. It's an interesting thing to pose you know what I mean? It's not something I would necessarily come to my own conclusion on, but watching Questlove frame it up in the documentary and really kind of push past, like, just call it the mythology of Sly. But really say, do we really understand what Sly was going through?

[Verdine White]

Sure.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

In these years.

[Verdine White]

Right.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

You know what I mean? Do we really understand? And he. And he paints a very particular picture of the pressures that Sly was getting from the African American community at that time.

[Verdine White]

Okay. So I think. I think Quest is probably right. Yeah, he probably was right about that. You know what I mean?

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

To me. Sorry. He's a smart guy, Quest, you know, so to me, it's like he made me have to rethink Sly's whole story. That's what I loved about the doc, because he did a beautiful story, but he also made me have to rethink about things. And I hope, in a way, he also does the same with you guys. It doesn't have to be about African American issues or in music. It could be something that I wouldn't even understand. It might be about your relationships as brothers or something. But I saw that he was willing to take a bold step and. And say, do we really understand this person's story?

[Verdine White]

Yeah. Well, what. The story that was told about us was good. It was primarily about Maurice.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Okay.

[Verdine White]

Our relationship to him, you know, what he went through.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Yeah.

[Verdine White]

There's pictures of our mother, which, you know, you read, and you. And you look at those pictures, you'll be saying, oh, wow. You know what I mean? And. And it. And. And we had a chance to show the peaks and the valleys, but he did a great job with it. You know what I mean? As. As a. As a director.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Yeah.

[Verdine White]

You know what I mean? We come out looking really good. Because that's what you wanted. Because originally, at first, I was the last one to sign on.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Were you skeptical for any particular reason?

[Verdine White]

Well, I didn't want it to be a. A tell all, tell all. I see, because sometimes these documentaries.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Yeah. In order to keep it moving, they keep it moving, it becomes more about drama than what the drama actually was. Does that make sense?

[Verdine White]

Yeah. And. And people. The one thing that I like about Earth, Wind and Fires, that people come up to me and they. They thank me for making the music. They thank us for making all that great music. I just didn't want anybody to come up to me and say, man, I didn't know y' all were like that. Right. You know,

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

I thought you guys were just there in front of the pyramid, man.

[Verdine White]

I thought, man. I mean, I didn't know y' all was like that.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Wow.

[Verdine White]

Right. Because, you know. Yeah. You don't know. But. But Philip, Ralph and I were, you know, one of the producers, so. So that gives us some clout. Yeah.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

I mean, my. My sense is that there's a greater appreciation now for your brother's Maurice. We're talking about his particular brilliance, like what he brought to the table.

[Verdine White]

Sure.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

I think that's pretty cool.

[Verdine White]

I think if the doc had come out maybe. Well, we had one come out about 25 years ago, And it's much more mild. Although I like that one, too. I thought it was great. You know what I mean? I didn't think we needed to do another one. You know what I mean? But now everybody's into documentaries. People know what a documentary is now.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Well, I think the kind of, like, with music, the rise of how computers are used in editing, have really blown the doc space open because you can put so much more information.

[Verdine White]

Yes, that's true.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

The director of the David Bowie documentary Moon Age Daydream, Brett Morgan, told me that he worked with the Bowie estate and he had 5 million pieces of data, 5 million pictures, videos, interview clips. I mean, can imagine. I mean, 25 years ago, you didn't have that ability to put all that information in. And that's right, you know, keyword. And so you see, that's why documentaries have become so much more rich in terms of the videos and the pictures.

[Verdine White]

That's true.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Yeah. So. So as a fan, I'm excited to see this new one because I want to sort of.

[Verdine White]

When I saw it, I said, oh, wow.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

We did a lot.

[Verdine White]

I said, oh, wow. You know what I mean? When we saw the. Yeah, a screening, you know. Yeah. And. But it. But it was. It was good, you know, it was. It was good, man.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

I'm happy to hear it.

[Verdine White]

Yeah.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

I was watching the other day, I found your, like, clip of you working out or something.

[Verdine White]

Oh, the other day.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

I follow you on social media or something. So. Okay, you came up and you were working out, you were dating. I know. You were doing, like, ballet.

[Verdine White]

Ballet, yeah. I'm doing ballet.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Yeah.

[Verdine White]

And I'm working out. Yeah. And all that stuff. Yeah, yeah, that's right. I'm doing that stuff. Yeah.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Yeah. You know, I'm impressed that you're still doing it. I mean, you're still out there, you're still rocking the people. You know what I mean?

[Verdine White]

Yeah. Well, let's go ahead.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

What drives you? I mean, you know what I mean? I know It's a simple question, but I mean. Well, you must love it. But I mean, like, what gets you out of bed?

[Verdine White]

Well, I still like what I do, you know? You know, and I'm grateful. And I still look good.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

You look great.

[Verdine White]

I'm still healthy, you know, so I'm, you know, I'm around great people, you know, great family. My wife, Shelly, and it's really, really good.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

This just occurred to me just talking to you. Tell me right now. I make this joke and maybe it makes sense to you sometimes. I've had long, contentious years with rock critics. You know what I mean?

[Verdine White]

Okay.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Picky, picky rock critics. And sometimes I make a joke to them and I say, be careful because my children might take over the business.

[Verdine White]

Right.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

And they kind of look at me like that. And I said, like, you understand what I'm saying? I'm not talking. My kids are going to get in the business. My kids might take over this business, the pumpkins business.

[Verdine White]

Right.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

You know what I mean? And I'm not saying that's your plan, but I'm saying is, is there something that you feel like, wow, this family band, like, it's. We're still going.

[Verdine White]

Well, well, my son Warner is one of the producers of the doc. He's a great kid. He's not a kid anymore, but. Cabron, Maurice's son, one of the producers of the documentary kb.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Yeah.

[Verdine White]

You know what I mean? And a great kid, Leo the Lion, like me. And. And in. In certain respects, Cabron has stepped up and Warner has stepped up. You know, I mean, as.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

That's kind of what I was after, this such a beautiful family story.

[Progressive Insurance Announcer]

Yeah.

[Verdine White]

Well, I think, you know, they grew up around it.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Yeah.

[Verdine White]

And you don't even know. They are. Checking it out, you know, the way they are.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Yeah.

[Verdine White]

You know, and. And my wife Shelly sings the Honeycomb. Our granddaughter Nala sings. So they. They're around. They're around it. They've been around it a lot.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Yeah.

[Verdine White]

You know, in terms of the music business, but. And then, you know, you wait on them to grow, too. You know what I mean?

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Yeah.

[Verdine White]

The one thing that I've tried to do is just be supportive, kind of stay out of the way and let them find their own space.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Yeah.

[Verdine White]

Yeah.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

But do you feel that? I guess what I'm after is when you're standing on stage and I've been. I'm able to see you play, and I understand the joy that you guys bring to the crowd.

[Verdine White]

Right.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

I mean, the music is unbelievable, but the joy of the Band. It's real, right. You know, you put on a great show, but it's coming from here.

[Verdine White]

Oh, yeah.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

It's a. It's a heart centered thing that you guys.

[Verdine White]

That's right. It's not fake.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Not even. Not even close to.

[Verdine White]

You got to just go out there and do it, man.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Oh, yeah. Do you feel that? Your parents behind you, your. Your brothers above you? Do you feel all that?

[Verdine White]

I feel all of it. I feel bad, I feel sad. I feel my best teacher around it. I feel Charles Stepney, you know, and I feel all of the. Excuse me. Those great guys that.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Yeah.

[Verdine White]

That brought me this far.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Yeah.

[Verdine White]

Yeah, man.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

I could feel that talking to you, you know?

[Verdine White]

Yeah.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

It's beautiful.

[Verdine White]

You know, and it's, you know, it's a once in a lifetime dream that you get for this.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Hello.

[Verdine White]

I know, man.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

You.

[Verdine White]

To do the, you know, to do what we do. I mean, it's not like, please, we're so lucky.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

It's not even funny, you know?

[Verdine White]

It's not. You can't write this.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

No. Two guys from Chicago. Right, right.

[Verdine White]

And we should take. I should take the L. Yeah, the L. The cta, you know? Yeah, man, I used to do that. Now when I go to Chicago, I'm in. I'm in my town car. You know what I mean? Like, I am.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

It's a little rough on the L right about now.

[Verdine White]

Exactly. Exactly.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

I saw where you put out this song in 2024. Superman, right? About your brother. Yeah. And listen to. It was beautiful. But I saw where you call him your hero. Can you.

[Verdine White]

Can.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

You can explain. I mean, it seems obvious, but I want to hear it from you. What made him your hero?

[Verdine White]

Well, I wanted to be like him. You know, I admired him and still do. And if it hadn't been for him, I wouldn't be sitting here. Yeah, he, you know, he believed me.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Yeah.

[Verdine White]

You know what I mean? And.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Because sometimes when guys are in bands, sometimes it's sisters, too. But when. When guys are in bands with a brother who's gets. Gets the, you know, he's the front guy, right. You know, he's the guy producing the records, all this stuff, sometimes the brother gets almost like weirdly resentful, you know? Right. These legendary situations. You know, bands break up over silly family. Really? More so than the. Than the musical stuff.

[Verdine White]

Right.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

It touches me that you love your brother that way. And it absolutely came through the band.

[Verdine White]

Absolutely. And. And the thing about it is, is he gave me room to grow. I mean, I had a chance to. To grow. And not only be a. A great musician, but become an adult.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Yeah.

[Verdine White]

And this thing called the music business. I mean, I became an adult in the music business, which is, as you spoke of earlier, that it's not an easy business, you know, to be in, particularly over a long period of time, you know, the long run.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

I say it's a marathon, not a sprint.

[Verdine White]

That's right. That's right. But you have to be in it to know how far. How far you got to go, you know, so. And I never would have had a chance to go to places and see the things I've seen, because I was 18 years old, man. I weighed a buck, oh, five when I came out here, man. And we lived at Franklin, on Franklin Avenue. 7047 Franklin.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Okay.

[Verdine White]

That's where Janis Joplin was.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Okay.

[Verdine White]

Yeah, man. That's where she died.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Goodness. I didn't know that.

[Verdine White]

Where we lived. And. And then all kind of musicians would come through there. Hendrix, all that guy, you know, And I met Jimi Hendrix.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Oh, I didn't know that. Yeah.

[Verdine White]

And people said, what was it like? I said, he had a list. He had a list. He had a list. What's up, Math? He had a list. You know, a couple more things.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Thank you for indulging me. I saw where Miles Davis said you were his all time favorite band. Now, that is a compliment.

[Progressive Insurance Announcer]

Yeah.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Because Miles was, like, beyond picky.

[Verdine White]

Yeah. He didn't like anybody.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Miles, he didn't even like the guys he played with.

[Verdine White]

Right, right. And. But Miles is always very nice to me when I. His nephew Vince and I very, very, very close. We're like family coming out of Chicago.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Right.

[Verdine White]

And. And went to Miles's house, you know, because Miles lived here, too, after a while.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Yeah.

[Verdine White]

You know, everybody always migrates to California at a certain point.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Here we are.

[Verdine White]

Amen. And so I would go. I would never say anything. Never say anything. And let him talk and things like that. And. And I was in the kitchen talking, and I was with Vince standing up in the kitchen, and we were talking. Then Miles said, why don't y' all split through? He threw us out. Why don't y' all spread? But he would talk about contrary motion.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Ah.

[Verdine White]

Talk about harmony.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Wow.

[Verdine White]

Where you could put all the different notes.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Yeah.

[Verdine White]

And he would draw the notes out.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Wow.

[Verdine White]

And he said, you know, and. And if, you know, mathematics, you can write music. You know, things like, you know. Yeah, things like that.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Wow. Amazing. Two things left.

[Verdine White]

Go ahead.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

I want to share a story with you. So I got to see you guys Play at Chicago Theater. I think it was. Would have been about, gosh, maybe it was maybe 10 years ago.

[Verdine White]

Okay.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Maurice was still alive. So if that gives you again a kind of another time frame. And, you know, I'm a big celebrity in Chicago, so I call for tickets and want to see the show. And I'm sitting on the aisle, and my wife's sitting here. She loves you guys, too. She's a lot younger. So, you know, actually, I have two stories for you, but. Sorry. So I'm sitting there, and the show's just about to start. You know, that's just about to start. You can tell. And just as the show starting, or maybe the show had started, a young man comes.

[Verdine White]

Go ahead, go ahead.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

A young man comes and kind of kneels next to me, says, are you Billy? And I'm like, oh, hi. How you doing? You know, and he goes, oh, it's so nice to meet you. And he starts talking to me, and I'm thinking, like, you know, show's about to start, and I'm trying to be nice, but at the same time, I'm like, I don't know if people are going to get mad because this kid's sitting here. And he goes, oh, my father's really a big fan of yours. I said, well, thank you, you know, and he goes, oh, I probably should tell you who I am. It was your nephew. Oh, it was kb and he said, I turn your music on to my dad. My dad really likes what you were doing. You want to talk about a compliment?

[Verdine White]

Well, because Kebron was on the staff at the time.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Yeah.

[Verdine White]

Was that the night that the sound went out?

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

You know what I think it was?

[Verdine White]

It went out for four songs. Yeah, yeah, the sound went out that night. Yeah, yeah. Something blew.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

That's right.

[Verdine White]

I remember. But the sound went out that night. Yeah.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

So you know, this. Just this young guy talking to me, and he's like, oh, Maurice is my dad. I mean, you want to talk about, like. Yeah, my mind. Because he. He's telling me how much his dad likes my music, right? And he goes, should tell you who my dad is. And then he told me, right.

[Verdine White]

Well, KB knows about music man. And he. He used to a R over at the Hollywood Records.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Oh, I didn't know that.

[Verdine White]

Yes.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Okay, so one other story, if you'll indulge me. So knowing I was going to interview you, I was telling my kids, I got young kids, 10, 7 and a baby. So I got the 2, 10, 7 in the car, and I go, oh, I'm going To interview this great musician, you know, he's from Chicago. And they said, well, play us one of his songs. So I put September on, and they go, oh, no, we know this song already, Dad. I go, you know the song? Yeah, it's Earth, Wind, and Fire. I go, how do you know this song? Mom plays it in the car all the time. Wow. I mean, the beauty of music. Like, wow. I mean, my kids listened to you at the same age. I fell in love with your music. Wow. Humbly to me as a dad.

[Verdine White]

Well, that's the thing that makes it so beautiful. See, we've transcended all the media, all the noise, you know, and it's. And now everybody likes our music, even if they don't know who we are. Yeah, they like our music, and they've all been touched by it, and they've all. And the nice thing about it, a lot of the great people, they've worked with us, and we were able to get through the whole thing, you know, from artists to executives to other musicians. Yeah, like that. Yes.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

Anything you want to add to all that? I know we talked a lot. A lot of stuff.

[Verdine White]

Well, I just want to say, man, it is a pleasure and an honor to be sitting here with you and thank you. And. And I didn't want to wait. I said yes immediately. I said, I got. I got to do this. That's my man. You know what I mean? I said, just really. I love. I love your work, too, man. Just really good.

[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

God bless you.

[Verdine White]

God bless you. Thank you.

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[Verdine White]

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[Interviewer (likely a music journalist or podcast host)]

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[Verdine White]

MinkyCouture.com the original best blanket ever.