Podcast Summary: The Majority Report with Sam Seder
Episode 2450
Title: Is Racism Over? Science Has The Answer w/ Dr. Keon West
Release Date: March 10, 2025
Host: Sam Seder
Guest: Dr. Keon West, Associate Professor of Psychology at Goldsmiths University, London, Author of The Science of Racism: Everything You Need to Know but Probably Don't Yet

Introduction

In this episode of The Majority Report with Sam Seder, host Sam Seder engages in a deep and insightful conversation with Dr. Keon West. The discussion centers around the pervasive issue of racism, examining whether it is still prevalent in today's society and exploring scientific perspectives on its existence, manifestations, and potential solutions.

Defining Racism

Dr. Keon West begins by clarifying the definition of racism, distinguishing it from related concepts such as prejudice, preference, and discrimination.

[28:04] Dr. Keon West: "Racism is any detectable difference in treatment that can be explained by race and cannot be explained by any other factor."

This clear, operational definition sets the foundation for the ensuing discussion, focusing on measurable and demonstrable instances of racial bias rather than subjective interpretations.

Detecting Racism: Experimental Approaches

The conversation delves into methodologies used to identify and measure racism, particularly through experimental psychology.

CV Testing Experiments:

Dr. West explains how manipulating variables in controlled experiments can reveal racial biases in decision-making processes.

[28:15] Dr. Keon West: "If two people do exactly the same thing but are of different races and receive different treatments, that difference is racism."

One notable study involves sending identical CVs with racially distinctive names to assess differential responses from employers.

[29:34] Dr. Keon West: "When all the results converge in that way, it becomes really hard to explain it any other way than race."

Systemic Racism vs. Interpersonal Racism

Emma Vigland introduces the concept of systemic racism, highlighting how societal structures perpetuate racial disparities.

[30:08] Emma Vigland: "Robert Moses constructed our public transportation in a way that disproportionately disadvantaged black people."

Dr. West acknowledges the complexity of systemic racism, noting that while his focus is on interpersonal racism through experiments, systemic racism requires its own set of analyses.

[30:47] Dr. Keon West: "Systemic racism often leaves statistical patterns that reveal unequal treatment, such as disparities in voting accessibility."

Racism in Various Sectors

The discussion highlights how racism manifests across different domains, supported by empirical research.

Education:

Dr. West cites studies where teachers, subconsciously or consciously, focus more on Black children when anticipating challenging behaviors, despite identical conduct across races.

[35:52] Dr. Keon West: "By the time children are three to five, they're already dealing with racism. Their teachers are expecting more negative things from them."

Healthcare:

Experiments demonstrate that Black patients receive less timely and effective medical treatment compared to their White counterparts with identical symptoms.

[38:52] Dr. Keon West: "White people with the same symptoms are more likely to receive life-saving treatments than Black people."

Law Enforcement:

A pivotal segment discusses racial disparities in police interactions, with data illustrating that Black individuals are disproportionately subjected to violence and lethal force.

[44:14] Dr. Keon West: "Black people are eight to nine times more likely to be tased in the UK, a trend that mirrors similar biases in the US."

Reverse Racism and DEI Initiatives

The episode addresses concerns surrounding reverse racism and the effectiveness of Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion (DEI) programs.

Reverse Racism:

Sam Seder brings up the notion of reverse racism, questioning whether policies aimed at correcting racial disparities disadvantage White individuals.

[53:20] Sam Seder: "Where does the concept of power come into this and the idea of reverse racism?"

Dr. West refutes the idea that DEI initiatives result in reverse racism, emphasizing that data consistently show White individuals are more likely to be selected and promoted across various sectors.

[54:17] Dr. Keon West: "Research shows that White people are still much more likely to be selected for everything than equally qualified people of color."

Effectiveness of DEI:

While acknowledging that current DEI practices are imperfect, Dr. West advocates for their continuation and improvement rather than abandonment.

[68:59] Dr. Keon West: "Scrapping DEI is saying we are comfortable with unfairness and are not planning to do anything about it, which is scientifically nonsensical."

Implicit vs. Explicit Bias

The conversation distinguishes between implicit (unconscious) and explicit (conscious) biases, exploring their roles in perpetuating racism.

Implicit Bias:

Dr. West discusses how unconscious biases can influence behavior without individuals' awareness, though he also points out that not all biases are unconscious.

[41:25] Dr. Keon West: "People sometimes are unaware of their biases, but other times they are perfectly conscious of their discriminatory actions."

Explicit Bias:

The episode underscores that explicit racism, where individuals are fully aware of their biases, contributes significantly to systemic inequalities.

Mitigating Racism: Strategies and Solutions

Education and Awareness:

Dr. West emphasizes the importance of educating individuals about the realities of racism through clear, empirical evidence.

[72:37] Dr. Keon West: "If you can show people clear, unambiguous data demonstrating racial disparities, many will acknowledge the problem and seek change."

Policy and Structural Changes:

Advocating for mandated, scientifically-backed DEI programs, Dr. West suggests that structured policies can more effectively address systemic issues than ad-hoc corporate initiatives.

[66:07] Dr. Keon West: "DEI should be centralized and structured based on scientific research to ensure effectiveness."

Addressing Uncomfortable Realities:

The discussion acknowledges that confronting racism may evoke discomfort, but this discomfort is a necessary step toward societal change.

[60:42] Dr. Keon West: "Most people who are swayed by racist arguments are uncomfortable with their own biases and want fairness to prevail."

Conclusion

The episode with Dr. Keon West offers a rigorous, data-driven exploration of racism, challenging listeners to confront both implicit and explicit biases within themselves and societal structures. By defining racism clearly, presenting empirical evidence of its persistence across various sectors, and advocating for informed policy interventions, the conversation underscores that racism is far from being over. Instead, it calls for continued vigilance, education, and structural reforms to address and dismantle enduring racial inequalities.

Notable Quotes:

• Dr. Keon West [28:04]: "Racism is any detectable difference in treatment that can be explained by race and cannot be explained by any other factor."

• Dr. Keon West [35:52]: "By the time children are three to five, they're already dealing with racism. Their teachers are expecting more negative things from them."

• Dr. Keon West [44:14]: "Black people are eight to nine times more likely to be tased in the UK, a trend that mirrors similar biases in the US."

• Dr. Keon West [54:17]: "Research shows that White people are still much more likely to be selected for everything than equally qualified people of color."

• Dr. Keon West [68:59]: "Scrapping DEI is saying we are comfortable with unfairness and are not planning to do anything about it, which is scientifically nonsensical."

• Dr. Keon West [72:37]: "If you can show people clear, unambiguous data demonstrating racial disparities, many will acknowledge the problem and seek change."

Key Takeaways:

1. Definition Clarity: Understanding racism requires distinguishing it from other forms of bias, focusing on measurable differences in treatment based on race.
2. Empirical Evidence: Numerous experiments across sectors like employment, education, healthcare, and law enforcement consistently reveal racial biases.
3. Systemic vs. Interpersonal Racism: Both systemic structures and individual interactions perpetuate racial disparities, necessitating comprehensive approaches to address them.
4. Effectiveness of DEI: While current DEI initiatives have shortcomings, they are essential tools in combating racism and should be restructured for greater efficacy rather than discarded.
5. Implicit and Explicit Biases: Recognizing and addressing both unconscious and conscious biases is crucial in the fight against racism.
6. Education as a Solution: Providing clear, data-driven education about racial disparities can foster awareness and motivate societal change.

This episode serves as a compelling call to action, urging listeners to engage with the scientific realities of racism and participate in meaningful efforts to eradicate it from all facets of society.