2474 - Trump Escalates Immigration Crackdown As SCOTUS Rules Against Him w/ Jeet Heer

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Majority Report with Sam Seder
Episode 2474 - Trump Escalates Immigration Crackdown As SCOTUS Rules Against Him w/ Jeet Heer
Release Date: April 11, 2025

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Introduction

In Episode 2474 of The Majority Report with Sam Seder, host Sam Seder delves into critical political and economic developments shaping the United States. Joining him are Emma Vigeland and Matt Binder, who engage in insightful discussions and debates. A notable guest, Jeet Heer, national affairs correspondent for The Nation and host of the Time of Monsters podcast, provides expert analysis on the Trump administration's intensified immigration policies and their broader implications.

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1. Supreme Court Ruling on Immigration Crackdown

Key Discussion Points:

• The Supreme Court mandated the U.S. government to use its best efforts to recover legal migrant Mahmoud Khalil, a Maryland resident, from an El Salvador detention facility.
• The ruling came after the Trump administration mistakenly sent Khalil to El Salvador, highlighting systemic flaws in immigration enforcement.

Notable Quotes:

• Sam Seder at [12:02]: "The government admitted that they sent a wrong person to this gulag. Judge Paula Zinis ordered Abrego Garcia to be returned by midnight Monday."
• Emma Vigeland at [14:22]: "They’re acting as our contractors in El Salvador. We can tell them what to do, but they’re sneering at us."

Insights:

• The ruling emphasizes judicial oversight over executive actions in immigration, potentially limiting the Trump administration's unilateral power.
• The incident underscores the risks of hurried and unchecked immigration policies that can lead to human rights violations.

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2. Labor Movement and Solidarity

Key Discussion Points:

• Strong emphasis on union solidarity, particularly highlighted by the support for SMART Local 100 apprentice Kilmar Abrego Garcia.
• Discussion on the critical role of undocumented workers in sectors like agriculture and hospitality, and the administration's attempts to undermine their rights.

Notable Quotes:

• Sam Seder at [07:55]: "We need to make our voices heard. We're not red, we're not blue. We're the building trades, the backbone of America."
• Matt Binder at [09:02]: "It's a political education ability of unions and unionization and why we're all worse off because of unions not being as the union density that we used to have."

Insights:

• The episode highlights the intersection of labor rights and immigration policies, illustrating how attacks on undocumented workers weaken the overall labor movement.
• Emphasis on the need for broader solidarity across different worker demographics to combat systemic exploitation and wage theft.

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3. Trump’s Tariff Policies and Economic Implications

Key Discussion Points:

• Trump's escalation of tariffs on Chinese goods to 125%, accompanied by a reduction in tariffs on other countries to 10%.
• Analysis of the immediate and long-term economic impacts, including market instability and potential inflationary pressures.

Notable Quotes:

• Sam Seder at [26:26]: "The Supreme Court yesterday said that the Trump administration has to work to bring back Kilmar Abrego Garcia... we'll pay to bring him back."
• Matt Binder at [27:10]: "Trump operates on a different level partially because of the type of business guy he is... He thinks advantages he can get from being seen as unstable."

Insights:

• The unpredictable nature of Trump's tariff policies creates uncertainty in global markets, deterring investment and complicating international trade relations.
• Increased tariffs on China may lead to retaliatory measures, exacerbating trade tensions and harming both economies.

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4. De-dollarization and Global Economic Shifts

Key Discussion Points:

• De-dollarization efforts are gaining traction, with major economies like Japan, Canada, and European nations reconsidering their reliance on the U.S. dollar.
• Potential acceleration of de-dollarization due to Trump's aggressive economic policies, threatening the U.S.'s status as the world's primary reserve currency.

Notable Quotes:

• Matt Binder at [32:09]: "The safe harbor was built upon the facts of the 20th century... To piss that away and lose that is a lot."
• Sam Seder at [38:15]: "The Swiss franc and the French franc... you start to see people essentially buying those currencies as opposed to US Currencies."

Insights:

• Rapid de-dollarization could undermine the U.S.'s economic influence globally, making it harder to borrow and manage national debt.
• A weakened dollar would have profound implications for international trade, investment, and geopolitical power dynamics.

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5. Suppression of Pro-Palestinian Voices and McCarthyism Parallels

Key Discussion Points:

• The Biden administration's crackdown on pro-Palestinian protests at Columbia University echoes historical patterns of McCarthyism and red scares.
• Use of anti-Semitism accusations to justify repression of dissenting voices, further polarization of political discourse.

Notable Quotes:

• Matt Binder at [56:08]: "It's the American war machine wanting revenge and domination in the Middle East, using Jews as human shields to justify this."
• Sam Seder at [62:09]: "This was an unsigned order with no noted dissents, so essentially unanimous governments."

Insights:

• The erosion of civil liberties under the guise of combating anti-Semitism represents a strategic move to silence opposition and consolidate power.
• Historical comparisons to McCarthyism highlight the dangers of governmental overreach in suppressing political dissent.

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6. Discussion on "Abundance" Agenda and Political Alliances

Key Discussion Points:

• Examination of the "Abundance" agenda proposed by centrist and libertarian think tanks, aiming to emphasize production and economic growth over regulation.
• Concerns about the agenda serving as a "stalking horse" for neoliberal and libertarian interests to infiltrate the Democratic Party and undermine progressive policies.

Notable Quotes:

• Matt Binder at [75:11]: "Abundance is really a stalking horse for the Koch brothers and others to gain a foothold in the Democratic Party."
• Sam Seder at [76:00]: "This is not just a series of policies; it's part of a political project."

Insights:

• The "Abundance" agenda, while seemingly focused on positive economic growth, may mask underlying neoliberal intentions aimed at reducing regulatory oversight and increasing corporate influence.
• Progressive groups must remain vigilant to ensure that such agendas do not compromise fundamental social and economic protections.

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7. Economic Growth, Capitalism, and Alternative Models

Key Discussion Points:

• Critique of contemporary capitalism's inability to address productivity issues and climate change, advocating for more state-centered economic models.
• Discussion on historical successes of large-scale projects like the Hoover Dam and Space Program as templates for current economic challenges.

Notable Quotes:

• Matt Binder at [78:03]: "You need like a sort... Any alternative model has to be much more state-centered."
• Sam Seder at [79:41]: "What Trump is doing right now is also an example of capitalism failing just the half hearted. The tariffs... just simply won't."

Insights:

• There is a pressing need to re-evaluate and potentially overhaul the current capitalist framework to better address systemic issues such as environmental sustainability and equitable economic growth.
• Large-scale public projects and increased governmental intervention may offer viable pathways to re-energize the economy and tackle pressing global challenges.

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Conclusion

Episode 2474 of The Majority Report with Sam Seder offers a comprehensive analysis of the Trump administration's latest policies, their implications for immigration, labor movements, and the global economy. Through engaging discussions with Jeet Heer and the insightful contributions of Emma Vigeland and Matt Binder, the episode underscores the interconnectedness of domestic policies and international economic dynamics. The conversations also highlight the historical patterns of governmental overreach and the ongoing struggle between progressive and neoliberal agendas within American politics.

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Notable Quotes Recap:

• "We need to make our voices heard. We're not red, we're not blue. We're the building trades, the backbone of America." — Sam Seder [07:55]
• "Abundance is really a stalking horse for the Koch brothers and others to gain a foothold in the Democratic Party." — Matt Binder [75:11]

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Useful Links:

• Majority Report with Sam Seder
• Jeet Heer's Articles and Podcast
• Time of Monsters Podcast

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This summary provides an overview of the key discussions and insights from Episode 2474 of The Majority Report with Sam Seder. For a more detailed exploration, listeners are encouraged to tune into the full episode.

Transcript

[Sam Cedar]

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[Matt Binder]

It tastes delicious.

[Sam Cedar]

Yes, I mean he's, he's going through a couple of bottles. It's Friday. They got with attached say they got some with Delta not also I have been having little back problems. I've been hitting the Sabadet tinctures quite heavily this week and the solve and that's been very helpful frankly. And I've been sleeping well because of my Sabaday Goodnight oil. Sunset Lake Sabaday, great company, great working rules. The $20 minimum wage, mostly employee owned. They have great farming practices and as this denotes, 4.2% of their sales during this sale is going to be donated to the Last Prisoner project. We're going to match so head over there right now. Sunsetlakesebade.com use the coupon code 420 to save 30% site wide. This is a great way to try new products. Sale ends April 22nd at midnight Eastern time. See their site for additional terms and conditions. And now time for the show.

[Matt Binder]

The.

[Sam Cedar]

Majority Rapport with Sam Cedar. Where every day casual Friday. That means Monday is casual. Monday, Tuesday casual Tuesday, Wednesday casual hump day, Thursday casual Thirs, that's what we call it. And Friday casual Shabbat. The Majority report with Sam Cedar. It is Friday, April 11, 2025. My name is Sam Cedar. This is the five time award winning Majority report. We are broadcasting live steps from the industrially ravaged Gowanus Canal in the heartland of America, Downtown Brooklyn. USA the program today China answers raises its tariffs on US goods to 125%. Does not look like they're backing down. In fact, the administration apparently has told China that they want China to ask for a phone call from Donald Trump. I kid you not. Supreme Court rules that the US must use best efforts to recover legal migrant Maryland resident from that El Salvador Gulag. A ruling today, in fact at 1pm in New York may free Columbia student Mahmoud Khalil Trump appointed judge okay's a requirement that all immigrants over 14 in fact all visitors to the country over 14 without documentation register with feds Trump to strip legal immigrants of Social Security numbers and presumably a way to pay into taxes for which they won't receive most of the benefits that they're paying the taxes in for. After Musk drops claims of dramatic savings from Doge new report shows government spending continues to climb. CDC lays off cruise inspectors amid a bad year for outbreaks. And we should say they've laid off cruise inspectors that have are completely paid for by the cruises. House votes to require passport or birth certificate in the so called SAVE act to register to vote which could end up making it harder for married women who have changed their names. Trump administration now seeking to have judicial oversight over Columbia University. All this much, much more on today's Majority Report. Welcome, ladies and gentlemen.

[Emma Vigeland]

It is casual Friday.

[Sam Cedar]

I think folks will notice a little bit of a sort of like a little more energy coming from me. Oh, yeah, my back is feeling much better.

[Emma Vigeland]

Yes.

[Sam Cedar]

I was able to lie flat on the ground for a while and I'm going on vacation tomorrow.

[Emma Vigeland]

That's very fun. And we actually won't rest.

[Matt Binder]

We won't rest.

[Sam Cedar]

We won't rest. You've been waiting for that. You were waiting for that.

[Emma Vigeland]

That is nice, though.

[Sam Cedar]

Oh, I'm going with Saul. So I got. I promise you I won't rest.

[Emma Vigeland]

You won't rest.

[Sam Cedar]

I won't rest. We might not win though.

[Emma Vigeland]

Yeah. Are you meeting Jerry Connolly on vacation?

[Sam Cedar]

He will win.

[Matt Binder]

Will lose sleep.

[Sam Cedar]

He will win. I actually do, like, want to take Saul for like one of his vacations. Like, you're just gonna be a candy striper and then you can meet like members of Congress.

[Emma Vigeland]

Oh, yeah. Okay. Got it now. Got it, got it.

[Sam Cedar]

Thank you. Let's get, let's get to it. We got a lot of stuff to talk about. This is, this Supreme Court ruling is encouraging. They have drawn the line at being able to disappear people and getting them out of the country. We'll talk about that in a Moment. This is this just yesterday, I think it was or Wednesday. And this was great. And I think I saw it from a tweet that you retweeted. Emma, President of the International association of Sheet Metal, Air, Rail and transportation workers. Smart Sean McGarvey had this to say at one of their national meetings during a speech he was giving.

[Emma Vigeland]

And to be clear, Garcia is a first year apprentice of Smart Local 100. So this is like a really encouraging and powerful show of solidarity with him.

[Sam Cedar]

We need to make our voices heard. We're not red, we're not blue. We're the building trades, the backbone of America. We built a 5 billion. You want to build a $5 billion data center. What more six figure careers with health care, retirement and no college debt. You, you don't call Elon Musk. You call us North America's building trade unions. And yeah, that means all of us. All of us, including our brother, SMART apprentice Kilmar Abrega Garcia, who we demand to be returned to us and his family. Now bring him home. I mean, what struck me about that, in addition to obviously appreciating that guy's, you know, protecting his members and showing was how many people in that audience knew immediately what he was talking about. Yep, that impressed me.

[Matt Binder]

It's a political education ability of unions and unionization and why we're all worse off because of unions not being as the union density that we used to have.

[Emma Vigeland]

And I think this is a really important way for us to show the connections between the labor movement and the way that the Trump administration is assaulting the American people and just people in general on multiple fronts. Like, we're seeing kind of broad understanding about how the oligarchy is harming all of us. And it's. But it's not just in Elon Musk looting the federal government or in the slash, the cuts to Medicaid that are coming and the tax cuts for the rich, the way that they're targeting immigrants. Here is also an issue of capitalists attacking laborers. Right. Because there was a report this morning that Trump may seek a carve out for farm undocumented farm workers and hotel workers. Trump had previously used undocumented workers at his hotels, but now that they've done, and who knows if he'll follow through on that. But it underscores the point that, like, we do need undocumented workers. We need this workforce. Undocumented workers are 40%, I think, of farm workers in this country. But they want them to feel fear. They don't want this kind of Solidarity like we're seeing with this union. They want them to feel afraid so, so that they don't ask for higher wages, they don't ask for benefits, and that corporations can basically engage in wage theft, which is the number one form of theft in this country towards undocumented laborers.

[Sam Cedar]

Supreme Court yesterday said that the Trump administration has to work to bring back Kilmar Abrego Garcia, again Maryland resident. He was, he is a Salvadoran citizen who was in the government has admitted mistakenly sent to this El Salvador prison. The government admitted it in court and said, but there's nothing we can do now because he's down there. And U.S. district Judge Paula Zinis had ordered Abrego Garcia to be returned to the United States by midnight Monday. That I think was stayed by Roberts earlier in the week. But they now have said the order properly requires the government to facilitate Abrego Garcia's release from custody. First of all, we're paying to send those people into that prison. So there's an easy mechanism to have it your, you know, him returned. We won't pay for him and in fact, we'll pay to bring him back.

[Emma Vigeland]

There are, they're acting as our contractor El Salvador. We can absolutely tell them what to do, of course, but they're sneering at us.

[Sam Cedar]

And to ensure that his case is handled as it would have been had he not been improperly sent to El Salvador, then this was an unsigned order with no noted dissents, so essentially unanimous governments. The court's liberal justices said the administration should have hastened to correct its egregious error and was plainly wrong to suggest it could not bring him home. The government's argument, moreover, implies that it could deport and incarcerate any person, including US Citizens, without legal consequence, so long as it does so before a court can intervene. And this is the point. I mean, I think this is why the Supreme Court did what it did, despite the fact that they want to do everything else they can to empower Donald Trump. It's not hard to imagine a president. I was just say Bernie Sanders, I know that's not going to happen, but you remember Chris Matthews once famously said he's going to line up people and shoot them in Central Park. But if the court was to allow this to stand, the idea of President Bernie Sanders sending a couple of U.S. marshals to, to take Clarence Thomas as he, you know, heads into his car, take him right to an airport and send him to a Salvadoran prison and go like nothing we can do now.

[Matt Binder]

I hope you can speak Spanish honestly.

[Sam Cedar]

Like, like there's no, there is no limit to this if you do not hold them account. So this was, it wasn't as surprising as one would have thought. I think, I think, I mean the power that are claiming without judicial due process and without. Or any type of due process and that like once we get them to the black site, it's no longer our problem, I guess. Pretty amazing.

[Emma Vigeland]

I guess I was surprised that even Thomas and Alito signed onto it. Like they could have passed at 7 to 2. But they, I feels like they, they made a decision that they want to show some sort of unified front to this because like part of what the administration is doing is also assaulting the court's authority, even conservative justice or judges in lower courts. So like they're also standing up for their own power here. Right. At a certain point they have to assert that they have some authority and we'll see if the administration could just defy them. That's what they're testing. Right.

[Sam Cedar]

If he's not brought back, you know, I would imagine that the government is going to have to in that lower court show why they can't bring him back. And it's going to be a very difficult argument to make, it seems to.

[Matt Binder]

Me, especially because Bukele is going to be here on Monday. Like they could just ask him in person.

[Sam Cedar]

It's not like they're on flights from El Salvador on that day.

[Emma Vigeland]

Right. They can carpool or plane pool.

[Sam Cedar]

In a moment, we'll be talking to Jeet here, national affairs correspondent for the Nation magazine, host of the weekly Nation podcast the Time of Monsters. And I'll ask him how comfortable he feels going on next year's Nation cruise now that there's no CDC outbreak. Inspectors got a couple of sponsors today. Delete. Both of these were products I was using before we started advertising for them. Delete Me makes it easy, quick and safe to remove your personal data online at a time when surveillance data breaches are common enough to make everyone vulnerable. Also, say during a time where like having some anonymity online, very helpful for people like ourselves. But in general, I can see that too. Delete Me does all the hard work of wiping you and your family's personal information from data broker websites. Delete Me knows that your privacy is worth protecting. You sign up and provide Delete Me with exactly what information you want deleted and their experts take it from there. They will send you monthly reports of what they've deleted and where, how many instances they solve, what information there you can put up. You can put in all sorts of information, relatives, different emails, you have different addresses in the past or that you have currently. It is very effective. And the thing is, it's a service that is ongoing because these data brokers repopulate. And one of the dangers for, you know, normies out there for cities, as it were, when you get, you got basically fishers and, you know, hackers and essentially identity thieves, they'll buy some of your information that's hard to find on the dark web and they'll cross reference it with information they find from these data brokers. Makes it much easier for them to do identity theft. Makes it much easier for them to send you fake emails or texts and throw you off as to like, you know, fall into a fishing trap. But I use it for my entire family. Take control of your data. Keep your private life private. By signing up for Delete Me now at a special discount for our listeners today. Get 20% off your delete me plan by texting majority to 64,000. The only way to get 20% off is to text majority to 64,000. That's majority to 64000. Message and data rates may apply. We'll of course put that in the podcast and YouTube descriptions. It just occurred to me, why do we not have a fig tree in this office?

[Emma Vigeland]

I don't know.

[Sam Cedar]

We could have one. We could have a fig tree in this office. We could have a avocado tree in this office. I don't have much of a window in terms of light. We could try it. You could try it too. Or you could just have apple trees in your yard. Or Korean pear trees or pawpaws, American paw paws. Do you know the Fast Growing Trees is the biggest online nursery in the US with more than 10,000 different kinds of plants. Over 2 million happy customers in the US wouldn't it be nice to have some blackberries in your backyard?

[Emma Vigeland]

It would.

[Sam Cedar]

Or some black raspberries or red raspberries?

[Emma Vigeland]

It would be.

[Sam Cedar]

You could do it. I've been using Fast Growing Trees for years and years. They're fantastic. You don't have to go to a big box store with a very limited, very limited selection of trees, then shove the thing in the back of your Subaru, have the dirt get all over the place, break a couple of the branches, go home and plant a delicious apple. No, no. You can get Arkansas black. You can get wine SAP, you can get all sorts of different apple trees, fast growing trees. You can get all sorts of different fruit trees. Or you can get shade trees. It's amazing. And they got experts at fast growing trees that not only curate all the plants you know, they got, you know, shrubbery and all that stuff, but they will help you tell you what is good for your particular climate, your particular location, your particular needs. Doesn't matter whether you're adding privacy, shade or natural beauty. These Experts are available 24 7. You can talk to a plant expert about your soil type, landscape design, how to take care of your plants, everything else you need. No green thumb required. This spring they have the best deals online, up to half off on select plants and other deals. Listeners to this show get an additional 15% off their first purchase when using the code majority at checkout. That's an additional 15% off at fast growing trees.com using the code majority at checkout. Fast growing trees.com code is majority offer valid for limited time. Terms and conditions may apply. Also, we will put that in the podcast and YouTube description. Also, just a reminder, if you want the free show free of commercials, become a member and I would cut them out for you on the audio podcast. So check that out. And don't forget am quickie am quickie.com Three days a week for free, five days a week. You will love it. Amquickie.com make sure you sign up for all our socials. Instagram, TikTok oh yeah, we're on all of them. All right, quick break and we'll be back in a moment with Jeet here. Foreign we are back, Sam Cedar, Emma Viland on the Majority Report. It is a pleasure to welcome back to the program G here, national affairs correspondent for the Nation, host of the weekly Nation podcast the Time of Monsters and also somebody I spent quite a decent time with. Enjoyable time on the Nation cruise last December. And just before you get into stuff, Jeet, I'm not sure I want to get your response on this. The CDC has laid off all of the cruise inspectors who incidentally aren't even paid by the US Government. They are financed through a fee from the cruises because of course, like the cruises are like it's not in our best interest to have norovirus run rampant.

[Emma Vigeland]

And get sued or something or just like.

[Matt Binder]

Yeah, yes.

[Sam Cedar]

I mean that's like one of the concerns when you're on a cruise, right?

[Matt Binder]

That's right. That's right. Yeah. Yeah. No, I mean, absolutely. And there was actually, I think in the early Covid days, I mean the cruise ships were like a kind of major kind of problem and the carrier of the virus and spreader of the Virus. I basically getting a lot of old people together in a Nicole's space. You know, unless you're like, watching out for viruses, you could have trouble.

[Sam Cedar]

It's not so great also when you get. Because a lot of those cruises are more like family friendly. And I got news for you. Based upon what I did when I was a kid and what I see my kids doing, there's not a lot of hand washing at the key times.

[Matt Binder]

That is a problem. No, no, no. I mean. Yeah. Well, I don't know. This is totally in keeping with, you know, our new RFK Junior. You know, you can wish away the measles world, you know, like, you know, like, let's bring back polio. Well, one of the things that we.

[Sam Cedar]

Found that causes autism is washing your hands after you go to the bathroom.

[Emma Vigeland]

I mean, it's unnatural. It's unnatural.

[Matt Binder]

You can.

[Sam Cedar]

You can wash your hands after number two, but not number one. And that's what.

[Matt Binder]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, the. In any case, yes, that is more.

[Emma Vigeland]

Poop talk from Sam.

[Sam Cedar]

Okay.

[Matt Binder]

Well, you know, I mean, the crew stuff, because I do go on these nation cruises and my family and I were talking about. Because one thing is, you know, we're not sure if we want to go back to the United States, at least for the, you know, until the next presidential election, because it's, you know, as you.

[Sam Cedar]

Canada.

[Matt Binder]

I mean, I'm in Canada. And my government has issued a travel warning, you know, saying like, you know, like, you might want to be aware of certain things if you're going to the U.S. yeah. So I think, like, you know, like getting rid of the health inspections on cruises, not a great thing. You know, safety in boats is actually important. As it happens. I was reading a really great book called how to Survive the Titanic by Francis Wilson, which is about the owner of the line that ran the Titanic. And they made certain mistakes. They basically thought the ship was unsinkable, so you didn't need so many lifeboats for every passenger. And the takeaway I took from that book is that when you're dealing with ships on bodies of water, safety first.

[Sam Cedar]

Yeah, I'm definitely into that. All right, well, let's. Let's get your perspective on what we saw this week. Donald Trump launches a trade war with astronomical numbers, and this really, I guess, happened last week. Astronomical numbers of tariffs across the board. Then all hell breaks loose, particularly in the bond market. I mean, the stock market drops, but it seems to be the bond market, which is what really scared the Trump and the administration. And so they Rejiggered the tariffs. They increased the tariffs on China up to 125%. They decreased the tariffs on just about everybody else, but to a 10% across the board. So from an inflationary perspective or from a tariff perspective, it actually increased tariff rates, but somehow it's being reported now as he paused it all. No, he just paused like the, the distribution, the initial distribution and redistributed. This one could be more inflationary based upon, you know, we get a lot of our products or a decent amount of our products from China. Give me your perspective.

[Matt Binder]

America's biggest trading partner, you have 125% on your biggest trading partner. And the two economies, I mean it's not just trading. The two economies are actually integrated to a degree that people can't even contemplate. It's a big deal. And that's why I think the stock market only had a brief respite. It's kind of rocky again. But I also think like, you know, like, I think it's. Don't get caught up so much in the details of like one day tariffs are this the other day it says it's more the instability. Right. Like nobody knows what the hell this guy's gonna do. He doesn't know himself. He's flying by the seat of his pants. And I got news for you. Like, you know, people who are doing business, they like certainty. They like, like having some sense of like, you know, if you're gonna open a door.

[Sam Cedar]

Wasn't that the big Wordsworth like, like 15 years ago? Wasn't that the only thing that we kept hearing during the Obama years was like the business community is, you know, needs more predictability, more certainty and there's no clarity. And so they can't.

[Matt Binder]

No, absolutely. I think that the, I mean Trump operates on a different level partially because of the type of business guy he is. He is, you know, as they say, the art of the deal or whatever. But I mean, there's a certain, he thinks advantages he can get from being seen as unstable. And in fact, I mean, one of his defenders, hedge fund billionaire Bill Ackman, says, you know, like it's, it's a great strategy for people to think you're crazy. And I actually have to say I, I don't actually accept that. I actually think people like stability, especially if, and you mentioned, you know, stock market. Okay, you know, like the stock market, it's like unequal, but like a lot of people are invested in the stock market. It's like, you know, through pensions and whatnot but historically it goes up and down. But where the real sort of stable money is, and it's much more like the real big money is in the bonds, right? That long term treasury bonds, 10, 20, 30 years. And that is where the story has been. And basically the Wall Street Journal reported Trump was willing to risk a recession, but not a depression. And so once the bond started going, now usually, okay, one has to understand the big economic fact is that going back a century, the United States has been the safe harbor for money in a time of crisis. Right. You might remember like back in the 20th century, we had two world wars. I heard about that. And in those two world wars, the nations of Europe, for really no good reason, destroyed themselves and also destroyed large parts of Asia and Africa. And what this meant was that the United States, protected by these two oceans, even though it participated in those wars, it was not bombed, its industrial base was kind of safe. And this meant America was like the secure place. And the American dollar, even before it became the global superpower, was the secure place to put money for like investors when things get hairy, right? And that continued even after the 2008 financial meltdown and even after Covid. And that has been a great advantage to the United States to be seen as a safe harbor. Because what that means is if the United States needs to raise debt, it needs to like borrow money, needs to deal with a financial crisis like 2008 or Covid. It always has a ready access of money because money is willing to pour in. That gives the US a great deal of government, a great deal of freedom and leverage and power, Right? It's a good thing to have. It's the U.S. is the Reserve currency of the world.

[Sam Cedar]

Let me just add this so that people understand. And as the United States currency is the safe harbor, treasury bonds have been the safest harbor within that harbor.

[Matt Binder]

Because the treasury bonds, treasury bonds are the sort of, you know, the US.

[Sam Cedar]

Government has never and BY bonds, basically what it is, is it's the US Government is by, is being loaned money essentially and provides an interest rate in response to it. It's generally low, but not too low. You know, it's, but it's, it's generally low because it's so not risky. So you can, you can buy a Treasury bond which is essentially loaning the US Government because the US Government needs to borrow money. And it's a very safe investment, not a huge payoff, but a safe investment you can count on, or at least it has been. We have never, ever, ever defaulted on a Treasury Bond. There's never been a time where it's like, okay, my bond has matured. I want my money. And the U.S. government said, we can't pay you. We've always been able to pay it. That's. It's been the hallmark of the financial bedrock of the United States, the United.

[Matt Binder]

States, and by default, the world. Right. Like, going back a century. It used to actually be the British pound was the default currency back when the British Empire was a thing. But once the British Empire fell apart, like, you know, nobody wanted to, like, thought that the pound was a safe harbor. And the U.S. and so what traditionally happens is, like, in a time of crisis, if the stock market goes down, the people move their money to people who are the big money. And you have to understand, if 60% of the population has pension funds in the stock market, the people who hold the treasury bonds are literally 1.3% of the population. They are the 1%. Right. This is the 1% we're talking about. And a lot of these are actually governments, governments around the world. The Chinese government, the Japanese government, the Canadian government, hold American treasury bonds as.

[Sam Cedar]

A safe Social Security, also, we should say, holds a lot of treasury bonds.

[Matt Binder]

That's right. That's right. So. So, so, you know, like, it's. It's now what Trump. And they were actually expecting this because this is something that Scott Bessant and Howard Ludnick said, which is, they said, well, if the stock market goes down, you know, that's actually good for us because people move their money into treasury bonds, and then that. That will actually allow us to lower the rates on treasury bonds, and so we have to pay less interest on our debt. Right. That is normally. And that's not a crazy thing for them to have said. That is normally what happens. But what happened this time. And the person to read on this is Adam Tooze, who's a great economic historian at Columbia and who on his substack. Yeah, you should have him on. He explained all this, like, earlier this week on a post on Monday. But basically what happened this time was both the stock market was going down, but also people. And basically it was the governments of Japan, Canada and the eu. Not so much the Chinese, interestingly, although they are one of the big holders of treasury bonds, and if they decide to take it out, that would cause a lot of trouble. So people are taking money out of the treasury bonds, moving it somewhere else. Right. And now if people are, like, calling in their treasury bonds, then the rates of that go up and every, like, you know, 1%, it goes up. That's. I. I forget the exact numbers, but it's something like 600 billion.

[Sam Cedar]

Each point is $300 billion in each debt.

[Matt Binder]

Let me just.

[Sam Cedar]

Let's just explain this, too, because this, I mean, I'm. Maybe I'm projecting, but this has always been rather opaque to me. And so I just. As people are listening, you the. When there's more people who want to buy bonds because, like, things in the stock market are bad, I need to put my money in something safe and hold it there, and I want to get some interest rate on it. I'm not going to put it in my mattress, but I'm going to get some interest rate on it. The more people who go into bonds, the cost of the bond itself goes up, but the rate of return drops. Because everybody wants the safety, and we're going to give you the safety. It's going to cost you a little bit more, but the returns are going to be a little bit less because everybody. You're buying safety, especially if it's higher.

[Emma Vigeland]

Mature, longer maturity as well. Right? Yeah.

[Sam Cedar]

And when those rates go down, because everybody's buying bonds, everybody wants to lend me money. Okay. I've got a lot of competition who I can lend the money to, so I can lower the interest rates because there's more demand. That's interest on our debt. And so as a government, we want those rates to be low because if people are going to borrow us money at 2% instead of 4%, that's good for us because we don't have to service the amount of debt that we have to service.

[Matt Binder]

Yeah, yeah. So basically, people. So once the people are taking money out of the treasury bonds, the amount of money that the US Government owes was starting to rise quite dramatically. And you have to understand, Trump has a larger program right now. We have a trillion dollars spent on the Pentagon. He wants to have tax cuts for the wealthy. So imagine a situation where you're both going to explode the debt to pay for tax cuts for the wealthy, and the borrowing is going to become much, much, much more expensive, and people actually aren't going to lend you the money. So imagine you want to take out two or three more mortgages on your house, but you also decide to pour graffiti all over the banks and decide to piss on the banker. Like, that's not a good move, because the banker will just suddenly either deny you your mortgage or just raise your rates. Right. Like, you do not want to be in a position where you anger the people that could. Our natural position of power to, like, really screw you, which is what Trump did. Now, beyond that, we're really on a different position because there's a quote from the Deutsche bank, the German central bank, I think, basically saying that we are now in a period where we're heading towards rapid de dollarization. So it's not just a Treasury bond issue. Now, de dollarization is something people have been talking about for decades, especially people on the left. This is like Marxist analysis, basically saying that the American position in the world is unsustainable, that as it becomes a smaller part of the world economy, it can't be the reserve currency forever. Are you going to become to a point where the American currency is just a regular old currency, and therefore that will limit the power of the American state to borrow and have the free hand that it did now, people, that was going to happen, but it's going to happen over like 10, 15, 20 years. Right? What Trump has basically done is accelerate the process of de dollarization. So it could happen very rapidly, like at a period where there is actually going to be like, some real fiscal problems because of the tax cuts he wants. And this actually also explains some of the Doge stuff, right? Like, they basically are imagining a scenario where, you know, they might have to slash a lot of the safety programs that people are used to, a lot of, you know, the entitlements, basically. So, you know, like, this is a very dire situation and it's a real crisis. And it actually, you know, I mean, there's some talk. I mean, some of it is. This is all speculative and some of it might be fan fiction, but I'm seeing some people talking about how basically, you know, Mark Carney, the Prime Minister of Canada, met recently with the Japanese and the Europeans. They had a big meeting a couple of weeks ago. And what people are thinking is that, you know, one of the things they talked about was like, you know, like, you know, coordinating, selling US Debt. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because they knew that if they did it together, did it at the same time, it could cause a crisis. So that's just speculation.

[Sam Cedar]

Well, that's the thing that's interesting about this. And I just want to say, in terms of the de dollarization, I think we saw that with the. I think it was the Swiss franc and the French franc, I think, shot up, at least in Europe, and then also the yen shot up a little bit. So that's where you start to see people essentially buying those currencies as opposed to US Currencies.

[Matt Binder]

So those countries that met that Are. That's where it's happening. And it's not so much. People were really worried that China was gonna, you know, push for de dollarization and they could at, you know, at any time, but they've been a little bit more cautious about this, so.

[Sam Cedar]

Well, that's because, you know, one of the things that has been sort of like, provided that security of the dollar being, you know, the, the, the currency of the world, as it were, was how enmeshed China and the US Were with each other, where it was like, China doesn't want to disrupt this. They're growing and they're. They're functioning with this regime as it exists now. The timing of this is probably not what they would have wanted necessarily, either, frankly.

[Matt Binder]

Yeah, no, I think, I think, like, you know, as I said, I think de dollarization was going to happen. I don't think there's any way that it could have been stopped, but I think it would have been better for everyone if it happened gradually. It was a process where both the US and the other countries could adjust to a world where the American currency was a regular currency. But now if you have rapid de dollarization at a time of sort of like fiscal crisis and debt ceilings and all this stuff, the US Becomes much closer to Argentina or Brazil, where you could really see the international financiers playing hard and fast and really pushing them into a crisis or. Great Virgin is actually another great example because they were like the U.S. they were like the, you know, the world empire used to having their own way. And then at a particular point, like with the Suez crisis, like, you know, the American government decided, we're going to pull all the gold out and they're currency went into crisis. Or more recently, with trust. Right. Like, so. So the US Would actually become like, much more vulnerable to like, outside shocks and just like. But it makes a much more unstable world.

[Emma Vigeland]

But China.

[Matt Binder]

Hurts the whole economy. It hurts everybody. There's nobody benefit from this.

[Emma Vigeland]

No, but China would benefit from, well, dollarization if it happened gradually. Right, Go ahead.

[Sam Cedar]

Well, wait a second. You're saying nobody's benefiting from this? Well, I want to play a clip of Donald Trump in the White House with a bunch of stooges. I don't know who these people are there, they're lined up. They must be like Trump, you know, his servants, unfortunately.

[Emma Vigeland]

Whitmer is in this room, by the way.

[Sam Cedar]

Oh, it's Whitman.

[Emma Vigeland]

She got a bunch of flack for this.

[Sam Cedar]

And he is introducing to his staff Charles Schwab and saying, like, you Thought it was just a company. It's actually a person and some other guy. Who. Do we know who the second guy is? Schwab and one other guy. So like Colonel Sanders, you say everybody's losing, but not everybody's losing.

[Matt Binder]

Oh, no, no, no, no, no.

[Sam Cedar]

Here we go.

[Matt Binder]

It's not just he made two and a half billion today and he made 900 million.

[Sam Cedar]

So if you couldn't hear it, he's saying, this is Charles Schwab. It's not just a name, you know, company. It's, it's, it's a guy. He made two and a half billion today and he made 900 million. Now, you know who else it seems to be in a pretty good mood? Donald Trump. I have a feeling that Donald Trump probably also did not miss this opportunity capitalize.

[Emma Vigeland]

There was a spike in sales we that of right before he made this announcement. So there's clearly some insider trading there. I mean, it's from AOC to Adam Schiff. There are already calling for investigations.

[Matt Binder]

Yeah, no, absolutely. And I don't deny this insider trading and these guys can make their hundreds of millions or billions, but we're talking about the global economy of trillions of dollars. Right. And yeah, it is a kind of Soprano situation where, yeah, if you take over a restaurant and burn it down and collect the insurance money and strip it clean before so you can sell off all the furniture, yes, you're going to be making money. But does this actually help the economy? You know, like the economy.

[Sam Cedar]

No, no, exactly. This is an extraction play. And they are just pulling all that value out of every little crooked nook and cranny they can find.

[Matt Binder]

Yeah, well, which is the Trump. Yeah, this is Trump presidency. This is what they're doing. They're, they're, they themselves are personally trying to profit and strip everything they can. But like, you know, like, the big picture is like, this is like a huge kind of disaster on a, on a world historical scale. Like I actually, I'm trying to think of, you know, like, when was the last time there were economic decisions of this catastrophic. And you know, I mean, it is the one that people always mention, which is the smooth hawley of, you know, raising tariffs as the depression was starting and sabotaging the world economy.

[Sam Cedar]

That was almost 100 years ago.

[Emma Vigeland]

Incidentally, he's also obsessed with McKinley, so it seems like that's very deliberate. Before we move on from it, I just want to make this, this one. Zoom out for a sec just to make this point because, like, as we're talking yet China does benefit from dollarization, but doing it gradually. Right. As they begin to make their economic footprint even larger. Although they are the number one, you know, exporter in the world, but we are the number one consumption consumers of the world. That's what these trade deficits are. Right? That's what they indicate. They indicate that we have so much wealth in this country that were able to consume all of these things, but people don't see their material conditions improving. And I do think that that's like what Trump taps into here or what hopefully the Democrats can do is because he, he's, he's capitalizing on the idea that people fundamentally understand how much wealth there is in this country, but they're not seeing it in their day to day lives. It's going to get worse with this protectionism, but we have to acknowledge that there's all this excess wealth here that he's gesturing towards with the tariffs at the very least.

[Matt Binder]

Yeah, no, I think I'm really glad you made that point because it is kind of essential that, you know, like the economy's been out of whack for a long time. There is a sense in which some of these policies, you know, gradual de dollarization, maybe even like a lower dollar would also make America more easier for it to export. Try to remanu using selective tariffs in a strategic way to build up industry. Like all of that I think is like is plausible. But I mean, Trump, one of my colleagues at the Nation at a meeting just described him as a sort of bizarro leftist, which is that he's taking all these ideas, you know, these are Bernie Sanders ideas, but implementing them in the worst possible way. And basically with, you know, what we said, sort of self dealing and sort of, you know, enriching his friends but with like likely, I've already seen sort of catastrophic results. But I mean, and I know like the people are talking about like, you know, you know, why have a nuanced position on tariffs like Sean Payne, the uaw, he's gotten a lot of flack, but he just gave a speech and I listened to it and a lot of the stuff that he said is very similar to what Emma's saying. And it's very sensible stuff, like we cannot, if we make it just a choice going forward, it's like Trump's craziness or a return to the status quo. I mean, I think they can win elections on that given how bad things are going to be. But I don't think that's a productive politics. I don't think that's going to like solve anything.

[Sam Cedar]

I want to come back to that point, put a pin in that for a couple of minutes as we go through some of these other topics. Because that notion of what, where, where do Democrats, where do separately like progressives, you know, social Democrats, Democratic socialists, the whole what, what, what do they need to do in this moment, you know, to set up for what looks like some opportunities down the road. But before we get there, I got one more question on the bond thing just to see if you've read anything about it because again, a lot of this stuff escapes me. There's two things that could have been going on in terms of like the, what was happening with the bonds. One is there could have been a lot of these countries who are subject to these tariffs decide either because they've coordinated or because it's a natural reaction, we're going to sell and we're going to be the so called bond vigilantes and force the US's hand. We're going to cause a panic. There's also another theory out there that some of the selling of these bonds looked like a liquidity crisis, that there were people who were not selling these bonds to send a message, but rather they were selling these bonds because there were margin calls.

[Matt Binder]

Yes.

[Sam Cedar]

In the equities market.

[Matt Binder]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Sam Cedar]

And there were other sort of like maybe there were derivatives, maybe whatever it was, maybe there were hedge funds with the, you know, that were selling these bonds because they need cash. And that is, you know, when you need cash, you're looking around at your assets. Where am I going to get it? Well, you can sell bonds like that and also it's the one that has the least opportunity to grow big. So that's the first place you look for cash essentially like your savings bank and Yeah, I, I don't know how to parse that out and I'm not sure that anybody does. But.

[Matt Binder]

No, no, I, I've actually been like trying to look into that because trying to figure out if this is like now that some of it is other governments, like I, I think it's pretty clear that the Japanese government and some of the Europeans and Canada are doing a little bit of this. And I don't think it's not the case of the, you know, the Canadian government is like, you know, always money to a loan shark and, and you know, like we're not that bad yet. But, but somebody, I mean, I think it could be both. Right. Like, I don't think it's mutually exclusive and both kind of make Sense, like, and in fact, I think, you know, like, it's the nature of the, the crisis is always like a, a domino effect, right? Like, like, like, like, so, like, you know, it could be like governments are losing faith or want to try to leverage, but this also, you know, causes a panic. And I mean, the stock market is like, and the bond market, you know, like, people talk about like market logic, but these are like, sort of like irrational things governed by fear as much as anything else. Right, right. And when they do panic, they panic a lot. So I think that I would expect we'll probably like, you know, need someone like Adam Tooze to like, you know, parse out, you know, what degree it is. But I think both are happening. And I actually especially think, I want to emphasize, like, governments in Europe are actually talking about de dollarization and these are like, you know, long standing American allies, like the Germans especially, and the Germans. I mean, there's two things. One of the lessons of the last century is don't make the Germans mad. Right. Try not to do that. I think that the Germans are quite upset, and not just upset about the tariffs stuff, but going back to Zelensky and how Trump treated. I think that the moment in the Oval Office, that was a real wake up call, like, oh, my God, this guy, we cannot trust him. And so a lot of governments around the world and a lot of bankers and, you know, serious, like, not. I'm, I'm just a Twitter clown. Right. But like, a lot of very serious people are thinking like, we cannot rely on the United States anymore.

[Sam Cedar]

They gave us a mulligan. They gave us a mulligan. The first time when you start doing this again where like, you know, that you're, you've signaled to the world that they're. Honestly, we have signaled to the. And I frankly think we did it the first time around, but we signaled to the world as a country that we are not the country we used to be in terms of, you know, it's one thing. It is. It is one thing. And I think probably the world government was, you know, the rest of the world's like, they don't really care whether we get healthcare or not. At the end of the day, although that may have been shortsighted, they don't care, you know, whether we're. The government is a democratic socialist or a social democrat or neoliberal government. It's just the stability, the predictability. And we just basically signaled that, like, hey, we're off the rails.

[Matt Binder]

Yeah, we're not.

[Sam Cedar]

We didn't get back on the rails. We're off the rails.

[Matt Binder]

Like, it takes a lot to get people to distrust the US Government and not see it as a safe harbor. Because as I said, that being the safe harbor was built upon the facts of the 20th century, the big like, you know, wars of the 20th century in which the US emerged really as the, you know, safe, stable place in the world. You know, like to, to, to like, you know, just piss that away and like to lose that. That's a lot, right? And then, and again, I, you know, you could kind of see that it wasn't just like Trump. There's been a couple of occasions where the Europeans have had doubts, but, you know, whenever a Democrat comes in, they think, okay, things are back to normal. So it's like, I actually think, like go back the early 20th century, like 21st century, with Bush and the Iraq war and the housing meltdown which destroyed the world economy. There are a lot of people in Europe and in Asia who are very mad at the United States. But once Obama came in and brought some grownups and some responsibility, they thought, okay, we can trust the U.S. you had Trump again, which Trump the first time scared people, but then you had Biden coming in. But once you elect Trump, this is the third time where you have like an American president that is like, you know, going to try to blow up everything up. And at that point we finally reached the point where like people have had enough. Like they've given, you know, it's like you have like alcoholic or drug addict in your family and you know, you love them, you give them a chance, right? You go into rehab, they go on a vendor. It happens 2, 3, 4, 5 times. At a certain point people like kind of say like, you know, I gotta watch my hands of you, right?

[Sam Cedar]

Yep. All right, let's just turn briefly. It is, it's now almost 1pm Supposedly at 1pm today, a judge is going to rule on whether Mahmoud Khalil, who, Columbia student, who was the, I think like the communications person for the folks who were protesting pro Palestine protesters who were protesting at Colombia and, or anti genocide, I mean, now they dovetail. And he was picked up by ICE officials. We know this from a video that his eight month old pregnant wife, now.

[Emma Vigeland]

Nine, I mean, he's been in jail for, he's been detained for a month. I don't know if she's given birth yet.

[Sam Cedar]

He was basically disappeared. Didn't know where he was for a couple of days. Ended up in a facility in Louisiana. If I remember correctly, the US Government was given until two days ago, Wednesday night to provide evidence that he had done something. Remember, this is. He's here legally. He's got a, I think a student visa. At the very least, maybe a green card. I'm not even sure. Green card.

[Emma Vigeland]

Green card.

[Sam Cedar]

And here legally. And some evidence of a crime that would justify his revocation of his freedom. Apparently the US Government could not come up with one. So Marco Rubio just wrote a letter saying his belief system is hurting foreign policy. Yes, I'm not being facetious when I say that. I'm just, that's what, that's what the substance of the. In it, the letter to me looked like it was being written for a third party. Like it wasn't to impress the judge, it was to impress Trump supporters, make it look like we're doing this and to scare maybe other people too. So we'll find out in an hour. But we also now have the Supreme Court last night said the US Government, you admitted that you sent a wrong person to this gulag. It turns out that 90% of them, now it's reporters have reported on 90% of the people we sent to this El Salvador and gulag, ostensibly because they were gang members or whatnot. 90% of them had no criminal record. And we don't even know if there's any. I don't know how you prove if someone's in a gang or not, but.

[Matt Binder]

Yeah.

[Sam Cedar]

You know, tattoos, obviously.

[Matt Binder]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Sam Cedar]

The presence of tattoos. Or also hoop nose rings.

[Emma Vigeland]

Right.

[Sam Cedar]

People. But you wrote a piece about the McCarthyism that is, that, that is growing. And we've watched university after university basically be threatened with getting grants revoked unless they make some deal. We've watched these big law firms capitulate. And the Trump administration's response, we want a consent decree to make sure that Colombia is actually going to basically police anti Semitism. And I put that in quotes because it's absolute garbage what they're talking about.

[Matt Binder]

Yeah, no, no, I know. It's pretty terrifying stuff. I mean, as you said, my piece, I sure try to frame this as part of a longer history in America of these kind of crackdowns on so called subversive or anti American speech is a red scare during World War I and a red scare in the late 40s, early 50s. And now with pro Palestinian speech, the common pattern is, which I wanted to emphasize, they all start with kind of like liberal administrations. It was like Woodrow Wilson, Harry Truman and Joe Biden that like kind of initially started this idea that, you know, there are these People who have bad thoughts are for foreigners are like, you know, un American and they build the infrastructure, you know, like, of legal persecution. And this especially with the sort of McCarthyism and now gets taken over by the right. It actually gives an opening to the right because you're playing into already right wing fears of the alien, the foreigner. So I mean, people, liberals, when they talk about McCarthyism, they talk about this is like a Republican thing, right? Like Joseph McCarthy, this bad Republican senator. Right. But it's actually like Harry Truman that, you know, like built all the sort of loyalty tests, you know, the purge of the civil service, all the sort of red scare rhetoric which allowed, you know, like McCarthy to come in. And the only difference was Truman was like, you know, really aiming at like, you know, real reds. And then McCarthy said, well, we can apply it more broadly, right? Like, because we know it's. Liberals are also communist. And so this is a way in which the sort of centrist Democrats, you know, liberal Democrats even they call, they consider themselves like, you know, Wilson, Truman and Biden, basically, you know, they, they are giving a license to the far right and they are actually empowering the far right. And I think that that's the pattern that people have to realize. And also another pattern is that liberal institutions, you know, like, are not able to defend liberal values. You know, like, we think about liberalism, like philosophy, like, you know, like, I think it's something we all kind of like can believe in, right? Like, you know, representation, democracy, free speech. But these big liberal institutions, the big law firms, the universities, during McCarthyism, the same thing, they voluntarily purged themselves before McCarthy came along. And now Columbia was already, because of donor pressure, was doing it. And what one is basically seeing is a kind of, I think a lot of it is frankly the Israel lobby, you know, which is very enmeshed with the national security state, trying to push back public opinion in a period where public opinions actually change. Where, you know, there's a poll from the Pew, 53% of Americans now have a negative view of Israel. And the only, and that includes 50% of like Republicans, like under age 49. The only like group that is a majority, a strong majority strongly pro Israel now are old Republicans, basically boomer Republicans, right? If you look at like Democrats, young Democrats are hugely anti Israel or critical of Israel, 70, 80%. But even like older Democrats are like, you know, 60%, right? They're lagging, but they're catching up. So basically they're trying to use the repressive power of the state and of like, you know, Finance in these institutions to push back the tide of public opinion in a period where public opinion is, like, radically shifting. And maybe that's a difference from McCarthyism, because I actually think McCarthy was able to appeal to us, you know, a widely shared anti communism.

[Emma Vigeland]

What happened to popularism, though, by the way? I've been told that the Democrats should embrace popular opinion and policy, except on Israel.

[Matt Binder]

You know, I actually once had an argument with David Shore on Twitter about this because I mentioned, like, you know, like, if you look at the polling, like, you know, maybe they should pull back on Israel. And he kind of, he says something like, well, there are other considerations on this issue. And then he deleted that tweet.

[Sam Cedar]

I hope you took a screen grab of that.

[Matt Binder]

Yeah, I did it. I did it. I kind of like myself for that.

[Sam Cedar]

Somebody can find it.

[Emma Vigeland]

I got to find that.

[Sam Cedar]

Yeah, yeah. But, but let me ask you this. I mean, because I think, I mean, there's two things here. One is in this specific era, there is no doubt that the crackdowns by the Biden administration and sort of like liberal society, as it were, on these protests, I think also this sort of, like, we can see this. You know, the antisemitism, the charge of antisemitism is justifying a whole host of things way outside of. I mean, in addition to the charge of anti Semitism being problematic.

[Matt Binder]

But this is anti Semitism as any criticism of Israel, which is itself.

[Sam Cedar]

Right.

[Matt Binder]

Yeah.

[Sam Cedar]

And I'm saying that in itself is also. But outside of the realm of anti Semitism, it's empowering this administration to do things like, you know, deport immigrants and to jail immigrants. That, you know, because once you say it's a belief that harms foreign policy and it's justified through, well, it's anti Semitic and we support Israel, blah, blah, blah. But once you then generalize it to. It's a belief that undermines the U.S. foreign policy. Well, that. Then you're. Then it's off to the races. Like, in that process. Just go a little bit deeper for me in this process, because this, this notion of you. Once you open the door in a liberal administration to this, what, what is being done? Like, because there's a lot of times where people are saying we should be nuanced about this. And, but your argument is if you're not maximalist in some of these things, then you're opening the door and, and, and leaving a. Essentially, like, I don't know what the metaphor is here, but you are open. Well, you've opened the door a little bit. And then it's a lot easier just to push it wide or open, I guess.

[Matt Binder]

Yeah.

[Sam Cedar]

How does that work? Well, how does that work?

[Matt Binder]

Well, I mean, the way it works is that the fundamental premise is already kind of reactionary. The fundamental premise is that, you know, it's the Biden shared. I mean, Biden was saying, like, these students are, like, violent and anti Semitic. I mean, just on the factual issue, like, Spencer Ackerman has done some good reporting on this. Like, like, almost all the violence on student campus came from, like, pro Israel people. There might have been a few small incidences otherwise, but, like, it was really. But beyond that. And on the anti Semitism thing, I mean, like, I really have to say, like, you know, we have this group called Stop Anti Semitism that says. Who's that? Children's Entertainment.

[Emma Vigeland]

Ms. Rachel.

[Matt Binder]

I mean, this is the most.

[Emma Vigeland]

We have so much to. We have so much to cover, but this has been one of the most insane stories. Ms. Rachel is like, one of the most popular children's creators on the Internet for young children doing instructional videos. She's beloved by all parents. It helps them out. She has been. She's been making videos for the kids in Gaza, and you see them being shown it on as they're surrounded by rubble. Dirty. Right? Like, this is all. This is. They've such little to look forward to. And the. Stop anti Semitism people are accusing her of being a Hamas supporter and anti Semite.

[Matt Binder]

Yeah, yeah. I mean, like, you know, like, Big Bird and Elmo are pro Hamas. I mean, like, this is like the level we're getting at now. But I think this basic thing where Biden kind of, you know, opened the door. He basically, like, you know, made incredibly incendiary comments. I want to also say, like, you know, all the kind of like, lies he said about beheaded babies and whatnot, you know, like, basically that was like red meat for the. Right. Because they could currently say, like, you know, like some, like, good Trump basically says, oh, you know, like, you these horrible, like, anti Semites and threats and you're weak. So he basically goes, you know, like, well, you know, Biden says he's going to defend you from these horrible evil hordes, but he can't defend you. I'm actually the tough guy, the strong guy, the guy that'll deport you and will defend you. The same with Joseph McCarthy. I mean, McCarthy basically said, well, Harry Truman is saying there's a big communist threat, but he's not doing anything. They're still communist. Whereas, you know, like, I'm actually going to like name all the communists and I'm going to deport all the communists now. So you're already buying into the scare mongering logic that terrifies people. And I have to say like, even beyond this, I think the best person that expresses was Jewish member of the State Department who resigned from the Biden administration where when she resigned she said that she will never forgive the Biden. Huh?

[Emma Vigeland]

Lilly Greenberg call.

[Matt Binder]

Yeah, yeah, exactly. She said, I will never forgive the Biden administration for making Jews the face of the American war machine. Yeah, and this is exactly what's happening because this is what people need to understand. And I don't really like the, there's an Israel lobby, but it's really something much bigger than this. It is the American war machine. The American imperial machine wants revenge and domination in the Middle east. And they are using Jews as human shields to justify this. And I find that morally unconscionable. And I have to see, like, if you want to like make more anti Semitism in the world, that's what you do. Right? Because this will absolutely make people associate Jews unfairly with these horrific crimes. And you know, like the other aspect of this, you know, like one of these groups, I don't know if it's stop anti Semitism or something very similar. Like they did like this like showing this picture of these forged protesters of Columbia saying, you know, these are people need to be blacklisted and they were all Jewish students. So basically you're using fighting antisemitism to basically suppress the Jewish left. I don't know. I mean, I just think it's a very sordid thing. But it's something that very cynically Biden and I have to say Chuck Schumer, they started it and they handed over weapons to Trump. And one sees the same process frankly in Israel where like a lot of the things that we really are against in Israel, like the settlements, they were all started by the labor governments. Like, you know, the labor government started creating a repressive apparatus and then someone like Netanyahu could come and say, well, but they're not doing it effectively. If you want to really effectively, you know, build settlements and repress the Palestinians, you need a strong man and I'm the guy. So, you know, like, in a lot of ways I think the liberals have empowered both Trump and, and Netanyahu, this.

[Sam Cedar]

Dynamic in moving off of this, that particular example of it.

[Matt Binder]

I mean.

[Sam Cedar]

Just to wrap things up, because I did want to talk to you just slightly about abundance because we never Got an opportunity to really discuss that that much. But this dynamic of when you accept a premise and attempt to nuance it in certain instances by accepting the premise, then all of a sudden you've moved in outside of, let's say, a policy thing, and you've moved into a political, you know, to the realm of politics. Like, I, you know, I've told this story many times before, but I first met Alex Lawson of Social Security Works years and years ago at Netroots Nation, and they. When George Bush was trying to privatize Social Security, I think there was a group, a bunch of people who were saying, like, our slogan is, you know, something like, this is probably not exactly what Fix it, not privatize it. And I'm like, wait a second. Yeah, you're. When you say that it's broken, which it's not. Social Security was not broken. I mean, we, you know, at that time, it was. The trust fund was funded until 2032, incidentally. Now it's like 2034.

[Matt Binder]

Social Security. Achievements of American civilization.

[Sam Cedar]

When you say that you're gonna fix it.

[Matt Binder]

Yeah.

[Sam Cedar]

As a. You're conceding it's broken, and now all of a sudden, it just becomes a debate as to whose idea is better to fix this broken thing. And that's the, that's what you're talking about. Once you concede the reactionary point, you're going to lose out to the really reactionary revanchist people. You know, when we're talking about that McCarthyism, because, you know, like, oh, you're talking about cracking down on dissidents. That's my jam. You guys, you guys are rookies.

[Matt Binder]

Like, if you really want to repress the Palestinians, he'll do, like, a much better job than Biden will.

[Sam Cedar]

He's out there saying that Chuck Schumer, who has publicly stated, my job is to make sure the left continues to support Israel. Trump's out there going, like, as far as I'm concerned, you're a Palestinian. Yeah.

[Emma Vigeland]

You're not a real, like.

[Matt Binder]

I mean, I mean, that's another case where Chuck Schumer has failed.

[Sam Cedar]

Oh, my God, miserably.

[Matt Binder]

I mean, the other place we're going to see this actually is China, because a lot of Democrats are doing like, sorry, China. Saber rattling. And, you know that just thinking that's like, kind of smart politics, and that's just going to, like, you're just opening the door. Everything we're saying, you could sum up very simply. You give them an inch and they'll take a mile Right, right.

[Sam Cedar]

And that's the, the, the, the, the politics. I mean, that's just sort of like a truism when you're talking about politics. And, you know, then the question is, like, how do you introduce sort of like mini narratives? How do you fiddle around, like, policy situations? Like, even. Okay, like, you know, use Social Security as an example. Okay. How do we fund the, you know, it past 2032 when we're having this argument 20 years ago? Well, the answer is get rid of the cap. And you don't talk about Social Security being broken at all. You don't ever say those words. It's the same way with the tariffs, too, on some level, I think, because, you know, saying the tariffs are good in this circumstance, they can be good, but it's like saying, like, what he's doing is not using tariffs in the way that they're meant. They're just attacks in this instance. So with all that sort of said, talk a little bit about abundance. Like what, like, what is that explain to people? Because we had a thing where, you know, we've been critical. We had. Paul, glasses on to go through the sort of, like the, the specifics of what is laid out in abundance and not so much the overall sort of complaint. And we've done a couple of, like, comments on it, just more best based on, on the interviews that those guys have done. And I'm curious of your take on it.

[Matt Binder]

Yeah, I mean, like, in theory, like, it sounds good. Great. And I actually think that it's a. There's an actual thing that one wants, liberals, especially the U.S. but I think also in the world to do, which is to be thinking about, like, building things. Like, I think that the sort of, you know, like, if you're putting it forward, like, in the early 20th century, you had these big, huge projects like the Hoover Dam, the space program. Let's get back to that. Now. I think the problem. So I think that is the sort of analytical aspect of like, you know, thinking of it in terms of like, you know, an emphasis on production rather than just regulation. Right. And I think, I think it is absolutely true that there's a type of liberalism that's too focused on, like, just getting the rules right and the regulations right and not thinking about, like, like an actual project. So I'm very sympathetic to that. Having said that, like, any political project involves alliances and working with people. And it is absolutely the case that, like, with the abundance thing, like, we actually have like, these memos from these, like, you know, libertarian think tanks saying, like, you know, like, abundance is a way that, you know, libertarians can ally with a centrist to like, you know, like, push our agenda in the Democratic Party. And, you know, one sees it in the way that some of these abundance, you know, center left or liberal people, like, as reclined, they seem much more friendly or inclined to make alliances, you know, with these libertarians than they do with like the left. So, like, it to me, like, that sends off like, sort of like alarm bells. Like, you know, like, are they taking like, you know, a real problem, like how do we build more housing? And then using it as a stalking horse for, you know, just as the way that, like, you know, the Russiagate stuff had some legitimacy was a stalking horse for the people like the Cheneys to become legitimate again. I think abundance is really a stalking horse for the Koch brothers and others to gain a foothill in the Democratic Party. And I think on that level, the political level, like, one has to take it seriously. And when you raise these issues, they always say, oh, you're not talking about the policies. Well, I'm sorry, but these policies aren't coming out of nowhere. There's a reason why everyone's talking about abundance is because, like, these billionaires are putting a huge amount of money into these think tanks to promote it. All these guys have agents. Like, there's actually an actual political project going on and we have to address that.

[Sam Cedar]

This is what I'm getting at in terms of like, this dynamic, because it is one thing to say we need to get to a place where we are producing more and building like we used to build. And the question is, like, who's the we in that instance? That's very important, we as a society. And the question is within that, like, who's doing the building? Who's deciding what we build in those instances is really important. But the other is, is that you cannot, in our society, the. Maybe there was a time this was the case. I don't know. I don't think so. A policy exists within the context of our politics.

[Matt Binder]

Yes.

[Sam Cedar]

And that there is no set of policies that frankly, you or I are going to read about unless it's like, you know, like we've had people come on this show who, you know, they're in the. I don't know what press it would be that their books came out and maybe one or two people have reviewed it in like, other sort of obscure. And they have policies and they're doing this and they're. They're creating policy ideas. But that that book wasn't Just a series of policies that was part of a political project. I mean, that's the thing, is that this is, it's not that whole thing there has implications beyond the narrow sort of policy prescriptions, which are.

[Emma Vigeland]

Yeah, and they're pretend. They're kind of playing dumb a little bit about that overall effort to make it a political project, which is sketchy to me.

[Matt Binder]

Yeah, yeah. No, I mean, I think that's a very dubious aspect. I mean, on the more broader issue, like, I actually think economic growth has kind of been a problem going back to the early 70s. Like the capitalism is not. Has not been as productive as it has been. And a lot of these solutions that are being offered have actually already been tried. Like deep regulation was tried and it juiced up things to a certain degree, but then everything goes back to the mean. And so I don't, you know, like, I mean, I think it's good that we're talking about this. I think this is a core fundamental issue. And you know, like, what I always tell them is like, well, you want to look at an abundance agenda. You know, who's doing it well is Chairman Xi, you know, because they're building like crazy amounts of like high speed rail and electric cars and you know, like, you know, maybe we should take some lessons from that.

[Sam Cedar]

It could very well be. We'll be there. That's. I'm waiting for that.

[Matt Binder]

We got to look at all the models. We have the Koch brother model, which, you know, we've tried that a little bit. You know, there are other models for this problem of like actual productive growth. And in some ways, I mean, I think the productivity argument is actually a good way to go after Trump because like a lot of this stuff of cutting science funding is absolutely bad for that.

[Sam Cedar]

It's all extractive.

[Matt Binder]

Yeah, it's all extractive. You actually need like, like a sort.

[Sam Cedar]

Of hostile takeover stuff. This is like, this is literally like what Bain Capital does. Right. They come in, they buy the country, they start selling off everything they can, they over leverage it, they extract the value out of it and then walk away.

[Matt Binder]

That's right. Well, that's the model. And yeah, so I think like offer an alternative model, but I think any sort of alternative model has to be much more state centered, frankly. Like, I don't think that a lot of the problems that we're facing, especially with climate, there's. The capitalism has kind of already proven that it cannot deal with these problems.

[Sam Cedar]

Absolutely.

[Matt Binder]

For the simple reason that like the, the technology that we have will like, they'll break even but they will not make the profits that fossil fuel.

[Sam Cedar]

Well, so what Trump is doing right now is also an example of just like of capitalism, you know, failing just the, the half hearted. The tariffs obviously are imposed by the US government but just having tariffs will do nothing to build an industrial base. Yeah, will not at all. And it just simply, it just simply won't.

[Matt Binder]

I mean it might help Biden on this one. I think some of this Biden stuff of build back better was getting towards where we need to be. It's just that he screwed up everything else so badly and he couldn't. He was not incapable of selling this. But I mean, I mean if you want an abundance agenda, the other aspect I'll mention is like, you know, the abundance agenda in terms of the politics really is designed to counteract the Bernie framing of the enemy to say that we have an oligarchy. These are the people who are standing in the way of an abundance agenda. The oligarchs want all the money for themselves so they're not willing to do the social investments. We need to make a world of human flourishing and abundance. And that's Bernie's argument. And I think a lot of the people like Ezra Klein are trying to preempt that and have a, you know, a feel good story where everything is better but not quite explain like you know, where this is going to be coming from.

[Sam Cedar]

Yeah, I agree. Jeet here. Always a pleasure to talk to you. Thanks Jean, national affairs correspondent. We will play, we will link to your articles and of course to your podcast, Time of Monsters.

[Matt Binder]

Thank you.

[Sam Cedar]

All right, we got to take a quick break. Thanks Jeet. Quick break. Head into the fun half. What? What do we got here?

[Emma Vigeland]

Oh no, that was.

[Sam Cedar]

Oh yeah. Okay, we'll get to that. We got a lot of stuff to go over in the fun half.

[Emma Vigeland]

Yeah.

[Sam Cedar]

Just a reminder, it's your support that makes this show possible. You can become a [e-mail] when you do, you only get the free show free of commercials. You get the fun half. Yeah, that's where we're going in just a moment. Also just coffee.co op. Why the.co op? Because it is a co op. Why the just. Is it because they only sell coffee? Well, they also sell hot chocolate. It's because they are just both in the way that they treat their employees because they're employee owned company and the way they treat their suppliers in Chiapas and Africa. They really work with their growers. Great place to get coffee. You can get the Mr. Blend or you can get the other. You can get it. There's another podcast that does it in there and then wtf. But also a bunch of other great blends too. Just coffee co op.

[Emma Vigeland]

Yeah. No, no. I had one point but I can wait for the fun half. It was just a good point that Jeet made that I didn't want to go unnoticed. Like about how the Trump administration is using throwing left wing Jewish organizing under the bus and others are and making them the face of like their state repressive policy. Trump learned this maybe from Roy Cohn too.

[Sam Cedar]

Right.

[Emma Vigeland]

Like the Rosenbergs and the their execution was also an act of anti Semitism. And I just think people should think about and look at that history of McCarthyism when we analyze how we're going after the left to suppress anti genocide protests in this country.

[Matt Binder]

Anyway, I think I saw Jeep make the point also that doing this for Israel shuts up a lot of the sort of never Trump style folks and the mainstream Democrats like Jeffries and Schumer ultimately like you know, making them lie down beforehand.

[Sam Cedar]

Yes. I mean I think there was definitely a belief in and around the Biden administration and in Washington D.C. that the October 7 attacks were that it happened a year before the election was not a coincidence in terms of like the impact it would have on fracturing the the left center left. I mean you know, American left. I don't know where how people sort of like make that calculation as to where, you know, like who would have been encouraged to do something like the timing in that time. I don't know. Right. But a lot of people have benefited.

[Emma Vigeland]

No, I know I took us off course but I just thought that was such an astute point that he made and how like we have so many historical parallels to what we're seeing now. Whether it's the McKinley stuff and the Gilding age or also McCarthyism and also the war on terror. Like we are also in this place too because of this erosion of our civil liberties from the war on terror, the creation of ice, the creation of dhs.

[Sam Cedar]

Spencer Ackerman's book draws a direct line from that post 911 stuff to Donald.

[Emma Vigeland]

Trump and Richard Beck too.

[Sam Cedar]

So anyway Matt, left reckoning, similar sort.

[Matt Binder]

Of topics on left reckoning. This week we had John Ben Menakaman who is an academic study in mass incarceration at Columbia University. So we talked about his area of interest and also what's been going on at Columbia vis a vis suppression of pro Palestine voices.

[Sam Cedar]

Vis a vis a vis.

[Emma Vigeland]

Yes.

[Sam Cedar]

You using Are you deploying other forms, foreign language tricks on that show? Does it have a je ne sais quoi, folks? See you in the fun half. Three months from now, six months from now, nine months from now. And I don't think it's going to be the same as it looks like in six months from now. And I don't know if it's necessarily going to be better six months from now than it is three months from now, but I think around 18 months out, we're going to look back and go like, wow. What? What is that going on? It's nuts. Wait a second.

[Matt Binder]

Hold on.

[Sam Cedar]

Hold on for a second. Emma. Welcome to the program. Matt. What is up, everyone? Fun hat. No, McKee, you did it. Fun half.

[Emma Vigeland]

Let's go, Brandon.

[Matt Binder]

Let's go, Brandon.

[Sam Cedar]

On craft. Bradley, you want to say hello?

[Matt Binder]

Sorry to disappoint everyone. I'm just a random guy.

[Sam Cedar]

It's all the boys today.

[Matt Binder]

Fundamentally false.

[Emma Vigeland]

No. I'm sorry. Women.

[Sam Cedar]

Stop talking for a second. Let me finish.

[Matt Binder]

Where is this coming from?

[Emma Vigeland]

Dude?

[Sam Cedar]

But dude, you want to smoke this seven egg? Yes.

[Matt Binder]

Meat this thing.

[Sam Cedar]

Yes.

[Matt Binder]

Is this me? Is it me?

[Sam Cedar]

It is you.

[Matt Binder]

Is this me?

[Sam Cedar]

Hello? Is this me? I think it is you who is, you know, South. Every single freaking day. What's on your mind?

[Emma Vigeland]

Sports.

[Sam Cedar]

We can discuss free markets and we can discuss capitalism. I'm gonna go snow white. Libertarians. They're so stupid. Though common sense says of course.

[Emma Vigeland]

Gobbledygook.

[Sam Cedar]

We nailed him.

[Emma Vigeland]

So what's 79? 21 challenge.

[Sam Cedar]

Man, I'm positively quivering. I believe 96. I want to say 8572-103550-11238.

[Emma Vigeland]

911, for instance, $3,400. $1,900. 54.

[Sam Cedar]

$3 trillion.

[Matt Binder]

Sold.

[Sam Cedar]

It's a 0su. Some game.

[Emma Vigeland]

Actually, you're making me think less of.

[Sam Cedar]

Wait, but let me say this poop.

[Matt Binder]

You call it satire.

[Sam Cedar]

Sam goes satire on top of it all. My favorite part about you is just.

[Matt Binder]

Like every day, all day, like everything you do.

[Sam Cedar]

Without a doubt. Hey, buddy. We see you. All right, folks, Folks, folks.

[Emma Vigeland]

It's just the week being weeded out, obviously.

[Sam Cedar]

Yeah. Sunda, guns out. I, I, I don't know.

[Emma Vigeland]

But you should know, people just don't.

[Matt Binder]

Like to entertain ideas anymore.

[Sam Cedar]

I have a question. Who cares?

[Matt Binder]

Our chat is enabled.

[Sam Cedar]

Folks. I love it.

[Emma Vigeland]

I do love that.

[Sam Cedar]

Gotta jump. Gotta be quick. I gotta jump.

[Matt Binder]

Losing it, bro.

[Sam Cedar]

2:00, we're already late and the guy's being a dick, so screw him. Sent to a gulag.

[Emma Vigeland]

Outrageous.

[Sam Cedar]

Like. What is wrong with you?

[Matt Binder]

Love you. Bye.

[Sam Cedar]

Love you. Bye.