← The Majority Report with Sam Seder
The Majority Report with Sam Seder
2476 - Constitutional Crisis Intensifies; How Weapons Sales Drive US Policy w/ Annelle Sheline
01:22:11
It's a Newsday Tuesday with Emma on the mic. She recaps the chilling spectacle that was the Bukele-Trump Oval Office meeting / press availability, including the Kafkaesque exchange over the wrongfully deported Maryland father Kilmar Armando Abrego...
Loading summary
Transcript161 lines
- [00:00]
Emma Vigeland
Hey folks, it's that time of year again. 4:20 is right around the corner and our friends at Sunset Lake Sebede are celebrating with their biggest sale of the season now through April, April 22nd when you check out with code 420- you'll save 30% statewide, sitewide, I should say flour, gummies, tinctures, coffee and even their new vapes. All, all for 30% off. Even better, when you spend over $100 they will throw in a 20 count jar of their microdose Vibe gummies for free. And here's the best part, they are not just blowing smoke, folks. 4.20% of sales will be donated to the Last Prisoner Project, an organization dedicated to reforming this nation's unjust cannabis laws and supporting those who've been negatively impacted by prohibition death. And the Majority Report is going to match these donations. So you can feel good about participating in this sale. I mean look at this. We just. I have this right here on my desk, this lotion which is especially important in the winter unscented because I don't know if Sam may ban scented substances from even entering this office. And then over here I have the Delta Gummies right here on my desk. So I'm a big fan. I use Sunset Lake daily, nightly to help me sleep. I can speak to the products Quality 3rd party tested Regenerative farming practices, treats their workers well and has just the values that you can feel good about supporting a company like this. And yeah, it's not that crap that you see on the side of the road. This is the real deal. Head over to sunsetlakesebede.com and use coupon code 420 to save 30% statewide. The sale ends April 22 at midnight Eastern time. See their site for additional terms and restrictions. Again, 30% off statewide. Everything's on sale. Code 420. Orders over $100. Get a free 20 count jar of vibe gummies. Orders over $150. Get a free 40 count jar of the vibe gummies. And again, 4.20% of sales will be donated to the Last Prisoner Project. And us at the Majority Report will be matching it. Head over there. The sale ends at April 22nd at midnight Eastern time. And now time for this show.
- [02:32]
Sam Cedar
The Majority Report with Sam Cedar.
- [02:38]
Emma Vigeland
It is Tuesday, April 15, 2025. My name is Emma Vigeland and for Sam Cedar and this is the five time award winning Majority Report. We are broadcasting live steps from the industrially ravaged Gowanus Canal in the heartland of America, Downtown Brooklyn, USA on the program today, Dr. Anel Sheiline of the Quincy Institute will be with us to talk about the US Military industrial complex, her paper on its history and how it relates to our claims about human rights. Also on the program, full blown constitutional crisis mode. Trump defies the Supreme Court on returning Kilmar Abrego Garcia from El Salvador's gulag and contradicts his own Department of Justice, which previously claimed that Garcia's deportation was a mistake. In that same meeting, Trump was caught on a hot mic telling Bukele that homegrown American citizens are next. Senator Van Hollen of Maryland demands a meeting with Bukele over Garcia's imprisonment and says he will go to El Salvador himself if Garcia is not returned. A Quinnipiac poll shows public opinion on Trump's immigration policies has shifted with a majority of Americans, including a majority of independents, independence now disapproving. So does that mean the Democrats will fight on something now because it's hit over 50%? Well, not Israel, but this is the popularism that the Biden administration was a fan of. Leading from behind is what I would call it. Harvard refuses Trump's demands to suppress anti genocide protests and refuse admissions to foreign students. So Trump cancels $2 billion in grants. But good on Harvard. MIT also followed. Another Columbia student, a Palestinian green card holder for a decade has been disappeared after showing up to his immigration hearing. Some rare good news. The Trump administration is re engaging with Iran on nuclear talks. I mean, we'll take that over some more bombings. Trump announces new tariffs on semiconductors and pharmaceuticals. That could change after this sentence ends. A Koch brothers backed legal group representing a group of small businesses sues Trump over tariffs. Marjorie Taylor Greene got caught with her hand in the insider trading jar. She was one of the people that bought a bunch of stock right before Trump revoked the most insane of his tariffs. FEMA denies Washington state disaster relief for cyclone damage in November because Blue State Trump's billionaire donor Bill Ackman, the Zionist who funded doxing campaigns of students protesting genocide, donates to Andrew Cuomo's mayoral campaign. And on a related note, lastly, quarter mil. Wow. Cuomo's campaign was caught writing its housing policy platform with ChatGPT. Maybe Ackman's, you know, incredible wealth can can help them with some better, I don't know, workplace practices. Not using ChatGPT because housing's the number one issue in the city. All this and more on today's program. Gosh, really hoping that we can stave off Andrew Cuomo here. Hello, Matt. Hello Russ. It is Newsday Tuesday. Yesterday, we responded to this story as breaking news. This press conference with Salvadoran President Neil Bukele, who was visiting the Oval Office. But I wanted to do a deeper dive into, to start the show today because this is an enormously important story. There were two massive pieces of news to come out of that meeting. One is that Trump is openly defying the Supreme Court in a major constitutional crisis. The other was that Trump got caught on the hot mic saying that, quote, homegrowns are next to Bukele, insinuating that he is open to the idea of sending American citizens to a foreign gulag. Now, we'll get to that other incredibly horrifying statement, but let's tackle this first one here because it's really important that we get this right. Yesterday, I did make a mistake responding to the breaking news. Sometimes that happens. Seekot, I said, uses solitary confinement. Broadly. I said that yesterday. It doesn't. It's a tactic that is occasionally used in this gulag. Ckot, which is an acronym for Terrorism Confinement center in Spanish. It was built in 2022, opened in 2023, but it's a black hole prison. In fact, the conditions outside of the occasional use of solitary confinement are also just as torturous. They leave the lights on for 24 hours a day. You can't go outside. The prisoners can't communicate with relatives and lawyers. Go ahead, Matt.
- [08:16]
Matt Binder
One thing about solitary confinement is it's expensive. And El Salvador is already spending 3% of its budget on these cages for humanity. And you'd rather just pack them in there like sardines because, you know, yeah, you need the real estate for solitary confinement and.
- [08:35]
Emma Vigeland
Right. Not enough square footage. And you're right that they're packed in there. There's been human rights groups have talked about how there is skin disease problems, rampant disease problems because of overcrowding. The. There's regular beatings and torture, denial of health, health care, toilets, food, water. Hundreds of deaths have been documented in Seekot since it opened at the start of 2023. And that's where Kilmar Abrego Garcia is, to the best of our knowledge, a Maryland father who was a sheet metal worker trying to get ahead in this country, who came here trying to flee the very violence that he was just sent back to. And in court, the Trump administration conceded and admitted that they should have sent Garcia away, that it was a mistake or they shouldn't have. Do we have that tweet that I sent you? I'm sorry, Matt. I should have pulled this up. Number four, Anna Bauer, who is of the senior editor at Lawfare, put this together. So the Trump administration is claiming that it wasn't a mistake now. And we'll get to that clip in a second.
- [09:58]
Matt Binder
Particularly Stephen Miller.
- [09:59]
Dr. Anel Sheline
Right.
- [10:00]
Emma Vigeland
Who is kind of seems like the president right now.
- [10:03]
Matt Binder
Also a Nazi.
- [10:04]
Emma Vigeland
Yep. They're claiming that it wasn't a mistake in public to the press, but the DOJ lawyers said something very different at the time. Here is this first slide. The Solicitor General under Donald Trump, while the United States concedes that the removal to El Salvador was an administrative error, that does not license district courts to seize control over foreign relations. That was what was said in that document by the Solicitor General. Now let's go here to the second slide. Another admission of an administrative error by an ICE official, Robert Serna. The quote is, through administrative error, Abrego Garcia was removed from the United States to El Salvador. This was an oversight, and the removal was carried out in good faith based on the existence of a final order of removal and Abrego Garcia's purported membership in MS.13.
- [10:57]
Matt Binder
People that operate in good faith don't have to insist on their good faith.
- [11:00]
Emma Vigeland
Yeah, these are.
- [11:01]
Matt Binder
This is a. Ice, and all these detention authorities are goon squads that get paid hundreds of thousands of dollars a year to just make mistakes like this. And there's many of them.
- [11:11]
Emma Vigeland
How do you remove somebody from the United States in good faith? Oh, well, we didn't.
- [11:17]
Matt Binder
Look. We thought that we got very scared of the tattoo and put him on a bus and shipped him to. I mean, it's a lie. It's a joke. It's. It's an insult to everyone's intelligence. Anyone who buys this is. Is, you know, I got a bridge to sell you.
- [11:30]
Emma Vigeland
But they get off on the line, and they know that they can't make the claims they're making in public, in court. So they have to be a little bit more honest.
- [11:37]
Dr. Anel Sheline
Here.
- [11:37]
Emma Vigeland
It'll say good faith, but the admission is the most important part. This is a third piece of evidence from the Department of Justice lawyer Erez Revenue in court filings and at a hearing. We concede he should not have been removed to El Salvador. This is when they have to put pen to paper and when they're in court. But now let's turn to what they're saying to the cameras. So this is the new tactic right there. The Supreme Court said that the Trump administration needs to be facilitating Abrego Garcia's release. And effectuating is the other word the Department of Justice claimed in a Filing on Sunday. I guess it was at this point that they don't see that as having to bring him back to the United States, that they're only liable for him having to come back once he's freed from the Salvador prison. But Bukele is saying even though he's acting as a United States contractor, that he's not going to do that. So with all of this in mind, let's play this full exchange from yesterday because it all kicked off with this question from Kaitlan Collins of cnn. And you see Trump call on the rest of the class to give their answers on this obviously illegal fascist action. And there are some contradictions even in the short time frame of these idiots communicating to us.
- [13:19]
Sam Cedar
Let's hear the question from this very low rated anchor at cb Plan to.
- [13:24]
Emma Vigeland
Ask president to help return the man who your administration says was mistakenly deported. The man who was mistakenly deported to El Salvador.
- [13:32]
Sam Cedar
Well, let me ask Pam, would you ask to answer that question, sir? President, first and foremost, he was illegally in our country. He had been illegally in our country. And in 2019, two courts, an immigration court and an appellate immigration court ruled that he was a member of MS.13 and he was illegally in our country. Right now, it was a paperwork. It was additional paperwork had needed to be done. That's up to El Salvador. If they want to return him, that's not up to us. The Supreme Court ruled, President, that if as El Salvador wants to return, and this is international matters, foreign affairs, if they wanted to return him, we would facilitate it, meaning provide a plane.
- [14:18]
Emma Vigeland
Okay, pause it for a sec. You are doing a great job. So you hear that right? First of all, she falsely claims that Abrego Garcia was an MS.13 member. The reality is, is that he was arrested by ICE in 2019 as he was waiting, looking for day labor at a Home Depot in Maryland. There was an informant that said he may be an MS.13 member. And so immigration judges denied him bond.
- [14:46]
Matt Binder
Initially, I want to say, not the best people.
- [14:50]
Emma Vigeland
Not the best people.
- [14:51]
Matt Binder
Those informants, they'll just, they'll just say things.
- [14:53]
Emma Vigeland
And that bore out in the fact that his bond, yes, it was initially denied because of that informant claim, but he then later received in immigration protection, which is entitled withholding of removal. And it was determined where they granted that withholding of removal, that he was not a danger to US national security. Now you also hear Pam Bondi say that this is foreign policy. We talked about this a little bit yesterday, but this is a way to remove people's rights. Because since the war on terror. And The Trump administration 2.0 is building off of. Of the unitary executive theory that was furthered and begun, really, I guess, or formally begun under the Bush administration in the Iraq war. It's about giving the president basically, you know, broad authority here and removing it from the confines of the Constitution when it constitutes foreign policy. So because this involves the. For the El Salvador government, which took this. These individuals as functioning as a contractor for the United States, they are claiming that this is foreign policy and then also classifying immigrants as terrorists, so they feel like it's easier to remove their rights. But keep going.
- [16:23]
Sam Cedar
To that question because, you know, it's asked by cnn and they always ask with a slant because. Slant, because they don't know what's happening. That's why nobody's watching them. But would you answer that question also? Yes, gladly. So, as Pam mentioned, there's an illegal alien from El Salvador. So with respect to you, he's a citizen of El Salvador. So it's very arrogant even for American media to suggest that we would even tell El Salvador how to handle their own citizens as a starting point. And two immigration courts found that he was a member of Ms. 13. When President Trump declared Ms. 13 to be a foreign terrorist organization, that meant that he was no longer eligible under federal law, which I'm sure you know, you're very familiar with the ima, that he was no longer eligible for any form of immigration relief in the United States. So he had a deportation order that was valid, which meant that under our law, he's not even allowed to be present in the United States and had to be returned because of the foreign terrorist designation. This issue was then by a district court judge completely inverted. And a district court judge tried to tell the administration that they had to kidnap a citizen of El Salvador and fly back here.
- [17:37]
Emma Vigeland
Okay, okay, okay, okay. Kidnapping. Kidnapping. No, you guys did the kidnapping and sent him there. This would be returning him to his family. And it's interesting he uses that language because later we'll play Martin O'Malley, who is suggesting something that I think is really a policy that the Democratic attorneys general should pursue, that they should file kidnapping charges against the administration. So the. I find it interesting exactly why he's doing that. Yeah, that's why he's using that language. Keep going.
- [18:11]
Sam Cedar
And the Supreme Court said the district court order was unlawful and its main components were reversed 9, 0, unanimously, stating clearly that neither Secretary of State nor the president could be compelled by anybody to forcibly retrieve a citizen of El Salvador from El Salvador, who again, is a member of MS.13 which as I'm sure you understand, rapes little girls, murders women, murders children, is engaged in the most barbaric activities in the world. And I can promise you, if he was your neighbor, you would move right away.
- [18:42]
Emma Vigeland
So you don't think that the Supreme.
- [18:43]
Sam Cedar
Court is asking to the Supreme Court. Steve was a nine to nothing. Yes, it was a nine. Zero in our favor. In our favor against the district court ruling saying that no district court has the power to compel the foreign policy function of the United States. As Pam said, the ruling solely stated that if this individual, at El Salvador's sole discretion was sent back to our country, that we could deport him a second time, ends up with him ever living here.
- [19:13]
Matt Binder
Because just to underline, the guy who could make that decision is sitting right next to Trump, grinning and saying some of my hands too.
- [19:19]
Emma Vigeland
Oh, don't you worry, they'll ask him that question.
- [19:22]
Sam Cedar
He is a citizen of El Salvador. That is the president of El Salvador. Your questions about per the court can only be directed to him.
- [19:29]
Dr. Anel Sheline
I asked.
- [19:32]
Emma Vigeland
Can President Bukele weigh in on this? Do you plan to return him?
- [19:35]
Sam Cedar
Well, I guess suggested that I smuggle terrorism to the United States. Right. How can I smuggle. How can I return him to the United States? Like I smuggle him into the United States or whether I do, of course I'm not going to do it.
- [19:49]
Emma Vigeland
It's like, I mean, smuggle him. Question is preposterous.
- [19:53]
Matt Binder
How can I joke a terrorist into the United States?
- [19:56]
Sam Cedar
I don't have the power to return him to the United States. You can release him inside of.
- [20:00]
Dr. Anel Sheline
Yeah, but I'm not releasing.
- [20:02]
Sam Cedar
I mean we're not very fond of releasing terrorists into our country. You just turned the murder capital of the world into the safest country in the western hemisphere and want us to go back into the releasing criminals so we can go back to being the.
- [20:13]
Emma Vigeland
Murder capital of the world and that's.
- [20:14]
Sam Cedar
That'S not going to be rap. Well, they'd love to have a criminal, you know, there a fascination. They would love it. Yeah. Sick. These are sick people. Marco, you have something to say? Yeah, I mean, Stephen, I, I don't understand what the confusion is. This individual is a citizen of El Salvador. He was illegally in the United States and was returned to his country. That's where you deport people back to their country of origin. Except for Venezuela. That wasn't refusing to take people back at places like that. I can tell you this, Mr. President. No, the foreign policy of the United States is Conducted by the President of the United States, not by a court. And no court.
- [20:50]
Emma Vigeland
Foreign policy.
- [20:51]
Sam Cedar
United States has a right to conduct the foreign policy of the United States. It's that simple. End of story. And that's what the Supreme Court held, by the way.
- [20:58]
Emma Vigeland
All right, that's.
- [20:58]
Matt Binder
So that's the top diplomat of the country, Marco Rubio, who, I mean, how did he, how did his people get to this country saying that. Yeah, I guess we don't have to follow any court rulings and this is our foreign policy to send innocent people into gulags.
- [21:15]
Emma Vigeland
I don't understand what the confusion is. Well, here, let me, let me just take a crack at this. Marco. That clip was around five minutes long. It opened with Trump calling on Pam, his favorite student, who said that it's up to El Salvador if they want to return Garcia, it's not up to the United States. Then the press asked Bukele, the president of El Salvador, who says, I don't have the power to return him to the United States. That would be smuggling. So then Rubio says, I don't understand the confusion. You don't. You don't understand the confusion because it seems like the confusion is the purpose, and it's in complete contrast to what they're claiming in court. Stephen Miller keeps saying it's a mistake. It wasn't a mistake. That's not what the Department of Justice is saying. Also, the judge said under, when it was ruled under the withholding of removal for Kamara Brego Garcia that they could not send him back to El Salvador because of his asylum claim, because there are asylum laws that are supposed to protect people from political violence. The judge that issued the withholding of removal put that in the ruling. So they could have deported him to other countries. They could have been just as cruel, but not just as cruel, almost as cruel. They could have been in the 99th percentile of cruelty, but they wanted to go over the top to send him to an abusive gulag. So, no, there is a process. And they could have petitioned to revoke the withholding of removal, but they didn't do that. And they violated it twice. One, by deporting him, and then secondly, and without going through that petition process, and then secondly by deporting him to the one country that the judge who granted that for him said he couldn't be sent to because of safety concerns.
- [23:11]
Matt Binder
And I'll also just underline Burger Garcia's safety is. And it's great to see representatives threatening to go down to El Salvador to secure him because his safety cannot be assured. He could be murdered in this system. Bukele has a history of cutting deals with gangs. It's actually the. How did this happen where they, you know, got these gangs together? Well, they're mass incarceration, which has been on for a while, and it's very expensive and probably not long for this world. But prior to that, Bukela was cutting deals with these gangs. I am worried that these, these gang facilities, like, if he, if a guy, somebody that was in this country because they were avoiding gangs, goes into that prison, how can, like, we don't know if he's alive. Exactly. But Kelly says, like, he calls him a terrorist. I'm sorry, like, the worst has to be. The worst is on the table right now.
- [24:06]
Emma Vigeland
I mean, that's, that is definitely in the realm of possibility, that that's part of why they're fighting so hard. I mean, I also think they're fighting so hard because it's just. That's what fascists do because they're both.
- [24:20]
Matt Binder
They can't have him come back and like.
- [24:22]
Emma Vigeland
And testify.
- [24:22]
Matt Binder
Exactly.
- [24:23]
Emma Vigeland
I mean, there's, this is what I love, the fascist playbook. They're both so powerful and strong, but also so weak and powerless. There's nothing Bukele can do to release Garcia. There's nothing Trump can do to release Garcia. There's nothing Pam Bondi can do to release Garcia. There's nothing Marco Rubio can do to release Garcia. There's nothing Stephen Miller can do to release Garcia. But we're also strong men, and we're alphas and we're the powerful, but also victims. Constantly victims, and also very scary.
- [24:51]
Matt Binder
Seen terrorists everywhere. They're under your bed.
- [24:56]
Emma Vigeland
With that said, a word from some of our sponsors and then we will be having our conversation with Dr. Annel Schielein. Fast Growing Trees. Did you know that Fast Growing Trees is the biggest online nursery in the United States with more than 10,000 different kinds of plants and over 2 million happy customers in the US and I am one of those happy customers. I am not good at keeping plants alive. I had struggled with this in the past until I got a houseplant from Fast Growing Trees. And now it's a beautiful vine that hangs off my bookshelf. It looks so nice, minimal light. And I've kept it alive for like over a year at this point. Very proud. And I have to thank Fast Growing Trees for that. You don't need to have a yard or a lot of space. You can also grow lemon, avocado, olive, or fig trees right inside your home. On top of the wide variety of houseplants available, the experts at Fast Growing Trees curate thousands of plants so you can find the perfect fit for your specific climate, location and needs. You don't have to drive around to nurseries and get dirt all over your car. Big Gardening Centers Fast Growing Trees makes it easy to order online and your plants are shipped to your door in one to two days. Whether you're looking to add some privacy, shade or just natural beauty to your yard or some greenery in your apartment, Fast Growing Trees has in house experts ready to help you make the right selection. With growing and care advice available 24 7, you can talk to a plant expert about your soil type, landscape design, how to take care of your plants and everything else that you would need. No green thumb required. This spring they have the best deals online, up to half off on select plants and other deals and listeners to our show get an additional 15% off their first purchase when using the Code Majority at checkout. That's an additional 15% off at fast growingtrees.com using the code majority at checkout. Fast growingtrees.com code majority offer is valid for a limited time. Terms and conditions may apply. And lastly, going online without ExpressVPN it's like not closing the door when you use the bathroom. And even if you think you've got nothing to hide, why give random creeps a chance to invade your privacy? Well, I'd like to thank ExpressVPN for supporting the Majority report. And here's the deal. Visit expressvpn.com majority and you can get an extra four months free because all your traffic flows through their servers. Internet service providers, including mobile network providers, know every website you visit and then in the US ISPs are legally allowed to sell that information to advertisers, which, you know, we're not that trustworthy. I think right now about some of our tech oligarchs. ExpressVPN reroutes 100% of your traffic through secure encrypted servers, so your ISP can't see your browsing history. It hides your IP address, making it extremely difficult for third parties to track your online activity. And it's easy to use. You just fire up the app and click one button to get protected. It works on all of your devices, phones, laptops, tablets and more, so you can stay private on the go. Optional Dedicated IP service engineer with innovative Zero knowledge design. Not even Express VPN couldn't trace an IP address back to the user and for US Customers. It comes with Identity Defender, a new suite of tools to get your data removed from data brokers, alert you when your data appears on the dark web, and even insure you against data theft for up to $1 million. It's rated number one by top tech reviewers like CNET and the Verge. ExpressVPN is a go to. It's a must have when traveling in particular for me or when you're at a coffee shop doing some work recommending it highly protect your online privacy today by visit expressvpn.com Majority that's E X P R-E-S-S V P N.com Majority to find out how you can get up to four extra months, free expressvpn.com Majority all right, quick break. And when we come back, we'll be joined by Anel.
- [29:14]
Sam Cedar
It.
- [30:07]
Dr. Anel Sheline
We are back.
- [30:08]
Emma Vigeland
And we are joined once again by friend of the show, Dr. Anel Sheline, research fellow in the Middle east program at the Quincy Institute. Anel was also at the State Department under Biden and resigned over the administration's support for the Gaza genocide. Her brief in Quincy, which is new, is called under primacy or primacy, weapons sales will always supersede human rights. Anel, thanks so much for coming back on the show.
- [30:32]
Dr. Anel Sheline
Thank you for having me.
- [30:34]
Emma Vigeland
So I just wanted to start here because as I just mentioned, obviously you resigned from the State Department under Biden. We've had you on to discuss your decision on that front. But now we are in this Trump era and there are a variety of just mass human rights abuses that the administration is engaging in. We just covered what's happening with the El Salvador gulags, but also the disappearances of people speaking out against the genocide here in this country. As someone who felt compelled enough morally to resign from your job over this, what's been your reaction to the Trump administration's escalation of these fascistic tactics?
- [31:22]
Dr. Anel Sheline
Yeah, it is really scary. And I mean, in many ways I have been it's been certainly interesting to see the way that Democrats are finally speaking up about what's going on, in contrast to under Biden, where we saw much less of that. Sort of convenient now to speak up now that they're no longer in power. And in many ways, you know, while it is certainly abhorrent what Trump has been doing, I do just want to emphasize that Biden initiated a lot of this, again, not to the level we're seeing, but in particular, things like characterizing the campus protesters as anti Semitic, instructing the federal government to use the ihra, the International Holocaust Remembrance Association's definition of anti Semitism, which does include criticism of Israel as anti Semitic. All of these ways that Trump is kind of building on the framework that Biden established. And while certainly Trump has gone a lot further, I think the metaphor I've heard that I found useful was that Biden cleaned and loaded the gun and now Trump is firing it. Obviously firing the gun is a lot more damaging than loading it, but still, Biden set up a lot of this. And so while I welcome the fact that we are starting to see a few members of Congress calling this out, and I hope increasingly they will do so because it is becoming so apparent that this is not just about the matter of Palestine, but it's about free speech, it's about the Constitution, it's about authoritarianism in this country. And I'm just, I'm a little worried that people may sort of look back with rose colored glasses at the Biden administration and say how much better things were then when they weren't.
- [33:17]
Emma Vigeland
Well, they were not. And I mean, what may benefit us is that even Democrats are enraged by Biden and his holding on to power in the face of this fascistic administration. Like he doesn't have the Obama charisma that can paper over the way that Obama made many mistakes and capitulated to the right like Biden is probably cooked and is likely going to be viewed as one of the worst presidents in the history of the country. I don't know. I mean, in history. But I also. Who knows how history is going to respond to these things.
- [33:53]
Dr. Anel Sheline
Yeah, I mean, I'm reminded of, and I don't know if you've covered this on the show, the fact that There was that YouGov IMEU poll that found that 29% of voters who voted for Biden in 2020 didn't vote for Harris in 2024 listed Gaza as their main issue. And that was a higher percentage than people who are concerned about immigration or inflation. So they lost the White House over this and maybe cost us American democracy. So I just hope that as Democrats are thinking about, you know, if we're able to have functioning elections in the future, the fact that supporting genocide is not a winning political platform.
- [34:36]
Emma Vigeland
It, it's, I hope so too. But we interviewed a Representative Pramila Jayapal maybe a month or two months ago, and I asked her this very question. Have Democrats reckoned with how their support for genocide has particularly harmed their brand with young people? I'm using my example as somebody who was inspired by Obama's anti Iraq war stance. And that's how I first gotten interested in politics. And she said, honestly, no. And that's the thing where it really just strikes a chord with me. And now this kind of bleeds into what you wrote about, like the McCarthyite era also first was brought to the fore by Democrats who thought that they could do it in a more managed. We can repress this kind of left wing political speech. The commies. Now it's the, you know, anti Semites on campus, meaning people outraged about genocide. We can do it in a more managed, targeted way. And then the right inevitably takes the mantle and it's authoritarian crackdown time. We execute the Rosenbergs, we blackball anybody with loose ties to communism. That's a mirror of what we're seeing right now.
- [35:57]
Dr. Anel Sheline
Exactly. And as you said in the report, a big part of the argument I make is looking into the historical record of the fact that it's not just Trump or It's not just US foreign policy since World War II has been driven by this imperative towards military primacy, one crucial aspect of which is weapon sales. And that under this overarching framework, the United States is never going to prioritize human rights. And in the report, I wasn't introducing a lot of information that was not previously public. I mean, I'm not allowed to do that as a former government employee. But it's been interesting because I think people have, I think it's tapping into something that people themselves are thinking and this awareness of our image of ourselves as Americans and this idea of sort of American exceptionalism. Certainly this is a very pervasive idea inside the State Department or inside US Government, that the US Is a force for good in the world, that the US Upholds human rights. As I say in the report, I mean, that myth lies buried under the rubble of Gaza. And I think for many people around the world, they no longer held that assumption. And I imagine many of your listeners also didn't hold that assumption. But so many Americans still sort of believe that. And I do think it is becoming increasingly difficult to maintain that fiction. Sorry, go ahead.
- [37:34]
Emma Vigeland
No, that's, I think a good place for us to dive in now is we can, let's start as broadly as we can. When did the era of US primacy begin, as you understand it? And when did that get tied into the military industrial complex piece?
- [37:56]
Dr. Anel Sheline
Yeah, so I'm partly basing this on a former colleague here at Quincy who's now at Carnegie, Stephen Wertheim's excellent book called Tomorrow the world where as a historian, he traces this and kind of the aftermath of World War II, this decision, partly informed by the experience of the US economy going through sort of military industrialization to fight World War II and how that helped move the US economy out of the Great Depression and then the choice to sort of perpetuate that. And at the time, this was motivated by Cold War logics, you know, which as you mentioned later morphed and, you know, was reflected in McCarthyism and the sort of boogeyman of communism writ large. And as time went on, as you know, the military industrial complex grew to such an extent that you had people like President Eisenhower himself, a military, cautioning the American people about the influence of the defense industry, of kind of the ways in which this would help, this would drive our foreign policy. Then I go through the fact that in the 1970s, there was a huge expansion in the weapons production and weapons sales around the world, which corresponded to the fact that this was the first time that Congress actually said that. No, actually, human rights should be part of our consideration when we are establishing our foreign policy and linking weapons sales to human rights in the law. Unfortunately, that law has never been applied because that would undermine such a core aspect of how we conduct our foreign policy, which is often driven by military sales, by security assistance writ large, which includes weapons sales. So we have other law. I go through this in the report, the fact that there are other laws on the books, things like the Leahy laws, which would limit security assistance to a specific unit of a military that engages in gross human rights violations. You have 620i of the foreign Assistance act, which stipulates that if a country is blocking humanitarian aid, they're no longer eligible for security assistance. But all of these are kind of piecemeal below the broader law which says if a government has engaged in gross violations of human rights, they're no longer eligible for U.S. security assistance. And. And yet that, again, that law has never been applied because that undermine so much of how we conduct our foreign policy.
- [40:33]
Emma Vigeland
And I want to get to Israel specifically and the Middle east in just a second. But can you talk about the origin of these efforts to say, okay, we'll sell a bunch of weapons, but this came about in the 70s, as you write. Let's at least give consideration to human rights. Or at least that was the stated purpose of the laws.
- [40:56]
Dr. Anel Sheline
Exactly. So, yeah, the timing is interesting. It came about kind of as the country was reacting to Nixon's imperial presidency and then Ford and the lack of accountability and the Vietnam War. And grappling with what it was that the United States had enabled, had pursued in Vietnam. But in particular, it was actually the public recognition or realization of the fact that the US Government had been involved in overthrowing Salvador Allende, Chile, and installing Pinochet as a brutal dictator that got a lot of attention. And it was in that context that you had activists, various groups pushing for this idea that then Congress did legislate that the United States should not sell weapons to a country engaged in gross violations of human rights. And this is why the human rights reports exist. And one thing that was ironic is while I was at the State Department working in the human rights office, a huge part of our time was putting together these human rights reports. There was never any acknowledgement of the idea that the reason Congress mandated these reports in the first place was to determine a country's eligibility for weapons sales. Instead, the reports were sort of seen as an end in and of themselves, that they're useful for NGOs, which is, you know, that. That may well be. But the original reason Congress required them had to do with weapon sales, and yet they've never been used for that purpose. So, you know, for me, as someone who had gone into State and was working on this, to then come out and look more into the history of it and to just develop a better understanding of what the law actually says here. I mean, in many ways, it's not that surprising. And maybe, you know, shifting to Israel, because Israel is such a glaring example of where we have actually relatively clear laws on the books that we simply ignore. But that's also the case for so many other countries. You think of US Support for Saudi Arabia or the UAE or Egypt. I mean, I focus on the Middle east, but obviously it's not limited to the Middle east, where the US Government is. Is happy to call out the human rights abuses of adversaries like Iran or Syria because we're not endangering weapons sales to those countries, but we are. The State Department or the US Government is much less interested in publicly calling out human rights abuses by the Israelis, by the Saudis, the Emiratis, the Egyptians, because a. That might necessitate legal measures and a shift in policy, but it's just. It's seen as not actually conducive to US national security because these partnerships are seen as more important, especially now in this context of great power competition, which was a leading motivator for the Biden administration. Arguably still for Trump, although under Trump, because he's all over the place, it's less coherent Sometimes hard to parse, but clearly, I mean, China is still a major concern for Trump as it was for Biden.
- [44:14]
Emma Vigeland
Yeah. And we have never, never successfully in, since the passing of these laws, as you write, successfully blocked weapon sales with these laws. So there's this is window dressing or treated as such by the Senate. And that has to do with that broad industry, the military industrial complex, how much it is a major part of our economy and Israel. Let's pull up this, this second chart here that Anel has in her paper. This is figure two, looking at US military aid to Israel starting in 1959 through 2024. You'll be able to see how it jumps off the screen after the October 7 attacks to 17.9 billion. But you can see how we really did maintain like, just a baseline level of support for Israel from the 90s on. I mean, there's some short increases. And you can see that in conjunction with the two wars that the United States started in the Middle East, Afghanistan and Iraq. But that line goes way, way up. I mean, Israel's support peaked at 14 billion and that was what, 19, 8, 1980. Now it's at nearly 18 billion. In the wake of October 7th, and to help support their genocide of Palestinians, can you talk a little bit about Israel's role in maintaining primacy for the United States? What do people view Israel as from a foreign policy strategic perspective? And like we've speculated on the show about its strategic placement in the Suez the fact that we need somebody in the Middle east who's directly aligned with us, functioning as basically our colony in the Middle east because we're, we don't want China to have influence in that area and we use to, we use military force to beat them back, basically. But what is your understanding of it? How do, how do people in government view Israel's role in making sure that the United States is still the world superpower, which, by the way, isn't happening anymore and is like 20 years out of date and is never returning.
- [46:43]
Dr. Anel Sheline
Well, I mean, when it does come to military spending and our military footprint, that is the one place where sort of the US Maintains this sort of superpower status and also in weapons sales. You know, the US has been the leading arms dealer of the world since 1950, and that doesn't look like it's going to change anytime soon. I mean, as far as the perception of Israel, I think that this is so often used as a justification for us, the sort of unconditional and exorbitant levels of support the US Provides to Israel, but the US has a massive presence in the Middle East. We have bases all over. I mean, you think also at the peak of the US presence in the region during the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, and just, you know, the vast numbers. So like, whether or not Israel was part of that equation, like, it really didn't matter. You know, the US mobilized to invade Iraq, mobilized to invade Afghanistan. In many ways, this notion that kind of Israel is the unsinkable aircraft carrier is what I've heard some people refer to it as. But again, the US has massive numbers of troops stationed around the region in countries that are very happy to host us, whether it's Saudi Arabia or Qatar, the uae, Bahrain. You think about the massive military footprint in the Middle East. In contrast, Israel is an issue of domestic policy. You know, the power of the Israel lobby is informed by the American Jewish community, but much more by the American evangelical community who operate under the biblically informed belief that the Jews need to return, you know, need to be present in Israel for the Messiah to return. I mean, this is.
- [48:45]
Emma Vigeland
And a majority of them die in that instance. I feel like, I just wish one reporter would ask one reporter, like, I'm sorry to cut you off here, but like, I was watching cnn, God help me, last night, and Scott Jennings is debating this, this guy about antisemitism wearing the Israeli hostage pin. It's like, could someone have the balls to say, I don't know what his religion is, but what is your stake in it? Because if Republicans have to explain this, if they have to actually get into the nitty gritty of it, you are calling for like mass extermination of Jews in your biblical end time prophecy.
- [49:23]
Dr. Anel Sheline
Right, Right. And they're generally pretty open about, you know, this is what the Bible says. I mean, what's, what's wild? And I may have brought this up before because it's still just, I find it mind boggling is that even people like Bill Clinton stating these kinds of talking points, the idea that, well, God gave them this land and it's like, are we basing our foreign policy on biblical, on like the Bible? Like, is that really what you want? Because if we're going back to that, that is completely contradictory to our entire Constitution. You know, like, that is not what this country was set up to be. And so just the ways in which Israel is sort of this unconditional support, you know, that insane level of support that that graph shows, which again only goes up to October of last year and doesn't account for money sent since then. Including under the Biden administration. And credit to Stephen Semler for that excellent graph that we used that it's sort of justified by, like, well, this. This is necessary to our foreign policy, when really it's just a matter of domestic policy, which is somewhat similar to understanding the power of the military industrial complex or even, as you said, you know, weapons production or military defense production is such an important part of our economy. But in fact, it's not actually that big. It's just that they have a very powerful lobby. And so when you have these massive wars, the CEOs of these companies, the shareholders of these companies make. Make so much money, but they maintain this myth that this is a core, you know, this is core to America's, you know, labor. You know, if you support labor, you support American labor, you have to support weapons production, which is really not true. And in part just because when you actually break it down and look at things like, where is weapons production happening? These districts are more likely to deal with higher levels of poverty. These are not jobs that are kind of bringing people up by their bootstraps. And if you look dollar for dollar at something like, if the US Government invested in something like education or green energy or health care, dollar for dollar, as much as they sort of our industrial policy invests in the military industrial complex and supporting, you know, subsidizing weapons production, the outcome, like the return on investment would be so much higher for our economy as well as for these workers themselves. So, again, it's this sort of myth that the US has to continue to support Israel because it's necessary for our approach to the Middle east and our ability to sort of maintain our military footprint in the Middle east, which is nonsense. And this idea that the U.S. you know, that it's in our U.S. national interest to continue to provide, you know, now a trillion dollars a year to the DOD and defense contractors to manufacture these weapons because that's good for the American, like the American worker. Like, both of those are just. Are false. And so. And that kind of both of them are also still justified under this notion that without the United States, human rights would fall by the wayside. You know, it is the United States to hold other countries accountable for human rights or that it is up to US Military power without US Military primacy, you know, China and Russia would be in charge. And, you know, clearly they don't care about human rights. And just like, well, clearly our country doesn't care about human rights.
- [53:16]
Emma Vigeland
So who believes that anymore? Besides, I don't know, like, like people's.
- [53:21]
Dr. Anel Sheline
Parents, People's parents, so many people at the State Department. And, you know, maybe this report was really just intended for my former colleagues, but. But this notion of American exceptionalism, I do think motivates people to continue to do this work. And for all that, I'm shocked and horrified by everything the Trump administration is doing. I do think it may be useful for stripping away some of these illusions and making it harder for people to continue to lie to themselves about the role the US Plays in the world, which under Biden, so many people still kind of did and I think would have continued to do if we'd had President Harris.
- [54:06]
Emma Vigeland
Yeah, I mean, and that is, I guess the cost of enlightening people is not worth the bodies. I mean, I don't. I can't make that calculation. But if we're looking for ways to move forward, that's one of them. Right? And I guess that's where we can talk more about how do we democratize this stuff. And it's just when we, when we're selling democracy to the public, people feel like there's no democratic process about our foreign policy. And they're correct. Like, so when Trump talks about the deep state and he makes it about, oh, woe is me. But the real deep state is the stuff that covers up our human rights, human rights atrocities that we fund across the world as the number one weapons exporter. Can we just put up even this third graph here? Just because this. If you scroll down, this just shows another. That one with the map. Sorry, I should say map. You put this out there. Just the sheer scope of how. Of where the United States has sold arms. You see every country basically there, except for some in Africa and Greenland. But we are that. That functions almost as like a military base.
- [55:24]
Dr. Anel Sheline
Already we have a significant Denmark. So, like, technically.
- [55:29]
Emma Vigeland
Well, like, what are they? There's. Exactly. But that's the. There it is. Iran, China, Russia, and that's. And then that's basically it. That's. And Yemen. Is that what I'm seeing there? I know we've sold Somalia. Somalia. Geez, I'm bad at maps. I shouldn't have even taken a guess. I'm not a great visual learner anyway, so I love having these because it does help me. Just think about it. Like Austria, you see all over the place. That's where we've sold arms just since the start of 2001. This is our effort to maintain primacy, even though as we're losing economic power to China and Trump seems to be escalating, that just Your thoughts? And now.
- [56:17]
Dr. Anel Sheline
Right, Yeah. I mean, this is something that I remember speaking with someone on the National Security Council about the idea that the only place the US Is able to maintain our status as number one is weapons sales. And so we just have to double down on that as opposed to saying, well, actually, no. As the global order becomes more multipolar, it is increasingly in America's interest to avoid unnecessary wars. Something like the war in Iraq that we foolishly, under false pretenses, engaged in was somewhat. The reason we did something like that was because as the global hegemon after the Cold War, we were capable of doing that in a way that now we just can't really make those. These wars of choice are so much more costly, and arguably they were extremely costly at that time, too, but in a way that Americans were still kind of able to ignore them, even though increasingly. I do think that this is part of what Trump has tapped into is the idea that Americans are tired of these endless unnecessary wars, which I hope seems to be informing the reason he's willing to engage in talks with Iran about a possible.
- [57:43]
Emma Vigeland
That's encouraging because it's almost. It's almost a blessing in disguise that the Biden administration didn't reengage because Trump would have scrapped it anyway because he just cares about being. They could just copy paste the JCPOA into an email and print it out and have him sign it and he would declare victory. And that would be amazing for all of us.
- [58:01]
Dr. Anel Sheline
Totally. That's a very good point. Yeah. If Biden had actually just kind of like snapped his fingers and reentered, which he could have done the way he reentered, like the Paris Accords. But you're right that it would have. We would have been.
- [58:13]
Emma Vigeland
But he's a Zionist, so that's the problem. And like, that's where Obama's. Obama's probably best achievement in my estimation was the Iran nuclear deal. Because we now know, looking back, like, what he was facing with the Israel lobby. And we saw Netanyahu try to put public pressure on Obama at the time with that PowerPoint presentation, with all those. That false information about how Iran was cheating on the deal, which wasn't happening. And Obama didn't cave, Biden didn't re enter because he didn't agree with Obama.
- [58:48]
Dr. Anel Sheline
Right, right, exactly. Exactly. Yeah. But backing up to your point about, like, the lack of democracy in US Foreign policy, I mean, this is, this is also a big part of what Quincy tries to do. We have a whole program called democratizing foreign policy, which is partly just about tracing the influence of dark money in our, you know, in Congress and in foreign policy decision making, you know, especially like foreign lobbies. But I do think that, I mean, for all that it has taken a genocide to get us here, which is appalling, I do think that people are waking up to some of this. And you think about the ways that for so long the Israel lobby, in cahoots with the defense lobby, were able to maintain this bipartisan, unconditional support for Israel and to maintain the censorship. Even someone like me studying, getting a PhD focused on the Middle East, I was warned away from studying Palestine because it was described as a career killer by a scholar who studied Palestine, who was able to do it and come through and have tenure on the other side. But it was like, it's just not worth it. And so the fact that they were able to maintain that for so long without kind of the coercion showing and that now they have to show, like what it is actually that maintains that censorship of support for Palestine and it is police brutality. It is deporting people who express solidarity with Palestine. It is taking away funding, defunding universities that provide like Middle east studies program, you know, like professor, you know, people like Rosie Bashir at Harvard, who doesn't even study this stuff but has like lost her tenured job. Like, again, I'm an academic, so I'm especially alarmed by the assaults on universities and academic freedom, but also just the assaults on freedom of speech writ large or the millions of dollars poured into the primaries to oust Jamaal Bowman and Cori Bush from Congress and that Democrats didn't speak up for them is just appalling. But I do think that because they are losing the narrative and because actually at this point, the pro Palestine side has the numbers, but they are intimidating people. The Trump administration is scaring people. People are understand, especially non citizens, are understandably unwilling to speak up, as maybe they used to be. And so I do think it is up to American citizens to speak up about this. And again, it's not just about Palestine. It's about free speech writ large because we know that it's just going to get worse. This is what authoritarian governments do all over the world. We know Trump is a bully, and if you stand up to a bully, he's less likely to come after you again. But if you show that, oh yeah, okay, I can be intimidated by this, it's just going to get worse. So, you know, I just, I hope that people are not losing hope because I do think that this is the time to stand up and speak out again, whether it's about Palestine or just about the assault on our constitutional rights, including the rights of non citizens. Like freedom of speech isn't limited to citizens. It's just, you know, Congress shall not make a law abridging the freedom of speech.
- [62:34]
Emma Vigeland
Right.
- [62:36]
Dr. Anel Sheline
So I know it can be really disheartening for people and it is frightening and I recognize that. But I do think those of us who are citizens have an obligation to stand up and to try to slow down this slide into autocracy.
- [62:53]
Emma Vigeland
Absolutely. Lastly, before I let you go, Anel, just back to the Iran news and the fact that the Trump administration is reengaging in these talks under Steve Witkoff. What's your impression of him? Because, like, it's not as bad as I thought so far. Remember, he kind of strong armed Israel to get that cease fire done, the fake cease fire that just lasted for a short period of time. But it was, it was more than what was achieved previously, at least for a short period of time. And like the posture of we're America, you're the client state versus Biden's weakness when it came to Netanyahu is something that's different. Wyckoff went to the Middle East, I think it was during a Jewish holiday or it was a time off. And he said, you're going to meet with me no matter what because we're the United States. And now it seems like these Iran talks are not going terribly like, what's your impression of what this guy's deal is?
- [64:03]
Dr. Anel Sheline
Yeah, it's interesting. Someone had asked, you know, do we just need more Steve Witkoffs? And I was, my response was, no, it's not him. He's, you know, Trump is empowering him to speak for Trump and the US Government on things like, we expect you, Netanyahu, to abide by the terms of the ceasefire in order for Trump to have his inauguration. And, you know, we're not going to have dead babies coming through the headlines to the extent that they do.
- [64:38]
Emma Vigeland
Well, they're PR people. That's his. Trump is a, is a savant at one thing and it's public relations.
- [64:44]
Dr. Anel Sheline
Exactly, exactly. And, you know, so not only did he clearly not want that distracting from his moment of glory, but also to show that he could achieve what Biden hadn't, which was Biden for months saying, we're working tirelessly towards a ceasefire, never actually getting there. And then Trump being able to come in and, as you said, insisting, no, you're going to meet with us. And you're going to stick to this. Unfortunately, I think just the political will evaporated. Trump wanted this mostly to show that he could get it when Biden couldn't, but he wasn't committed to actually maintaining that. And this, I think, speaks to again, like the influence of very, very wealthy Zionist donors, people like Miriam Adelson and others that have given him hundreds of millions of dollars over the years. But on Iran, similarly, the fact that Trump is again tapping into this to Americans frustration with endless and unnecessary wars in the Middle East. So not wanting to do Netanyahu's bidding to fight Iran on Israel's behalf. And in general, that meeting when Netanyahu and Trump, when Netanyahu just recently was back in Washington and Netanyahu was hoping to get Trump to lift the tariffs on Israel, which he didn't do. He wanted Trump to speak out against Turkey. And instead Trump said no, like, Erdogan's my buddy and you need to be reasonable. I mean, unfortunately, on Gaza, Netanyahu continues to do and get whatever he wants with full U.S. support, including maintaining a full siege. Nothing has gotten into Gaza since March 2, and people are starving. And Israel is successfully implementing its policy of either killing all the people in Gaza or forcing them to leave. And, you know, there's that. That new branch of the Israeli government set up to facilitate people's departure. So it's. I am heartened by the fact that Trump is not willing to bow to Netanyahu the way Biden was. But unfortunately, on Gaza, he seems to be perfectly fine with the genocide.
- [67:13]
Emma Vigeland
Yeah. And I think he sees it as a real estate opportunity. I legitimately think that. And he also doesn't respect if people are poor. He can't empathize with them. Like an immiserated. He'll side with. He's drawn to people in power. It's why Netanyahu is not getting what he wants with the Erdogan thing, because Trump's inspired by Erdogan in the same way he's inspired by Bukele, by Orban in Hungary, by Putin in Russia. He likes these kinds of people. And so I think he's disgusted by the Palestinians, probably because he perceives them as weak because of their victims.
- [67:58]
Dr. Anel Sheline
Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, and I do think that I don't know what it will take to get him to see that differently, other than Americans making clear that they reject this, because I do think that Trump is sensitive to public sentiment. And so to the extent that people speak out against this, and I've Been heartened to see prominent Christian commentators on social media posting, you know, horrifying images of children in Gaza, you know, just, just the way that people are, are still paying attention. My hope is that there are enough people on the right who maybe I don't agree with on any number of issues, but on killing children, we can agree we don't want the US Sending billions of dollars, you know, don't want our money, our taxpayer dollars in today's tax day going to kill innocent children in Gaza. So, you know, for me and at Quincy, which is an organization where we try to work with the right and the left against unnecessary US Military interventions, trying to reach out to those on the right, you know, which I do think writ large, I know it's hard. We're a very polarized country. You know, I get it, not wanting to talk to your crazy aunt or whatever who's a Trumper. But yeah, like, but dead children, you know, like if we can't agree.
- [69:33]
Emma Vigeland
We've shown this charts from Pew. Yeah, we've shown this chart from Pew now six times or something in the last few weeks that Republicans from 2022 to 2025, ages 18 to 49, there's been a 15 point shift in negative views of Israel. Thank you, Matt, for. Oh, that's not the right one close though. It's the one on negative views of Israel have risen. And then you see that it's now 71% of Democrats age 18 to 49 have a negative view, 69% of Democrats lean Democrats overall. But that shift for Republicans has basically stayed the same. If you're an older Republican and you're 50 years old, you love Israel. You know, they like the ethnostate supremacist part and the killing of Muslims part. But that's significant 15 point shift from 18 to 49. And Candace Owens is like one of the top political podcasts in the country. I am concerned about antisemitism. Like I'm deeply, deeply concerned about that. And how do we appeal to the right on the basis of not wanting to kill children? I'm more comfortable going at it with the Dave Smith libertarian thing about our tax dollars than going to Candace Owens because like I genuinely think there's starting to be some real anti Jewish hatred on the right that not, not that there wasn't before, but in particularly like in, on this issue in particular on Israel.
- [71:05]
Dr. Anel Sheline
Right. Well, and this goes back to some of what we were saying earlier of, you know, when the, when you have kind of the Zionists and the evangelicals on the same page. But also you think about Israel's outreach to the far right in Europe, for example, or people like Viktor Orban, these extreme anti Semites coming out of the tradition of the Nazis and the other fascistic parties that murdered 6 million Jews.
- [71:32]
Emma Vigeland
The AfD in Germany.
- [71:34]
Dr. Anel Sheline
Exactly. And yet that Israel is willing to align to ally itself with them or the Netanyahu government is willing and it's useful for them as well because they can say, well, I mean, Israel likes us, how could we be anti Semitic? So it is deeply concerning. But at the same time, when you have anti Semitic being thrown around the same way, sort of anti communist, the ways in which these terms start to lose their meaning or even the notion of like a terrorist, the way, you know, the Biden administrate or the Biden, probably they did too. But I'm thinking of the Trump administration referring to several of these, these people who are mistakenly deported as terrorists or even Bukele saying that yesterday these words start to lose their meaning and something like antisemitism remains a huge problem. And, and to, to treat it seriously and to be, to be able to recognize it for what it, when it actually is, you know, a hatred of Jewish people as opposed to legitimate criticism of a government engaging in war crimes, atrocities and genocide and otherwise violating international law as well as US Laws and criticizing those policies. Those are two different things. And when you conflate them, you're undermining the reality, you know, the need to actually be serious about. We have to be careful of the ease with which the world and Europe and European derived societies have. Historically, it's been very easy to sort of go after the Jewish people and target them and blame them. We've seen that for centuries.
- [73:19]
Emma Vigeland
Well, exactly. So it's concerning, I mean all of it. We're in dark times. But as always, I appreciate you coming on Anel, you can check out her work at the Quincy Institute, including this particular brief, which is a great read. It's like 27, 28 pages. It's called under Weapon Sales Will Always Supersede Human Rights. And you can find it on the Quincy Institute website and on your social media. Enel Sheline, thanks so much.
- [73:48]
Dr. Anel Sheline
Thank you so much for all the work that you do tirelessly to pay attention to all this.
- [73:53]
Emma Vigeland
Well, thank you, Enel. Always appreciate your work and good to talk to you.
- [73:59]
Dr. Anel Sheline
Thank you.
- [73:59]
Emma Vigeland
Thank you. All right, with that we are going to wrap up the free part of this program and head into the fun question mark. Fun fascist half. Oh, brought your mic down.
- [74:12]
Matt Binder
Well, yeah, try not to say anything to get the show banned from YouTube.
- [74:18]
Emma Vigeland
Half yeah, we'll see. Tune in. If you can become a member, you'll get access to the fun faster staff and try to not say anything that will get us kicked off social media. Have and you can see whether or not we're successful. If you go to jointhemajorityreport.com you can support this show, you can become a member and then you'll be able to IM the show where we'll read IMs like this one from teacher Dan 100% on Trump's lack of empathy for the poor and his desire for another Trump Tower in a beautiful location. Teacher Dan20 also adds, I agree that Trump is sensitive to public sentiment, but all he needs to do is show up to a pro wrestling event and get his public sentiment fix. I think that's true because I think he's less tethered to public sentiment this time around. This is somebody who's behaving he's not.
- [75:11]
Matt Binder
Gonna have to run in another election. I think all the stuff about the third term is hot air.
- [75:16]
Emma Vigeland
Yeah. I mean, but even if it's like the threat of it or whatever, I mean he feels like he's not gonna have to run in another election again, so why does it matter? And he doesn't care if the Republicans like have success. I guess he probably cares in the second term or in the second half of his presidency if the Republicans have the House and the Senate but they're losing the House. I mean, that's not a question in my view. I hope so. I mean, I don't make predictions. Sorry. Why am I doing it again?
- [75:45]
Matt Binder
Yeah, because you're addicted to prognosticating.
- [75:47]
Emma Vigeland
Okay. Yeah, you're right. But it is a small margin and past metrics would indicate that the Democrats are in a decent.
- [75:56]
Matt Binder
Oh, I love those shit.
- [75:59]
Emma Vigeland
Oh God.
- [76:00]
Matt Binder
Well, it's a past metric.
- [76:01]
Sam Cedar
Say so.
- [76:02]
Emma Vigeland
I mean, just don't look at my past metrics. Matt, what's happening on Left Reckoning stop me from, you know, falling on my sword.
- [76:09]
Matt Binder
Grace Thur Wilson will talk about Jared Polis. What's his deal, Colorado in general and and some anti vax stuff which speaking of things that give my blood pressure into like the cardio range just thinking about. So yeah, we're going to be talking about that stuff tonight.
- [76:25]
Emma Vigeland
Patreon.com leftreckoning what is Jared Polis deal? Is he running for that? For Michael Bennett's Senate seat?
- [76:34]
Matt Binder
He's an abundance guy who like I'm not sure that's a good question.
- [76:37]
Emma Vigeland
Bennett's running for governor right now.
- [76:38]
Matt Binder
He's the type of guy who says, look, I love all these pro worker bills, but what about the poor contractor who might want to stiff a worker who you know, like Donald. Basically the Donald Trump type Capitalist Protection act, which says I'm not going to sign these labor bills because someone might want to stiff you and we don't want the law to be able to make them pay people who like did your landscaping. So I mean he's an anti vax Maha type of guy. Like you know, total freak.
- [77:10]
Emma Vigeland
He's a freak. Polis. Polis was a member of the Liberty Caucus as a Democrat in the House. Which is a far right caucus or what? You know, a far right caucus. I guess it still must still be around a Liberty Democrat.
- [77:29]
Matt Binder
That sounds very clan adjacent, honestly. And yeah, so that's weird. So he's a rich guy, right? He's abundant, sort of.
- [77:37]
Emma Vigeland
I'm not sure if what his wealth is, but I know that he basically is kind of like a libertarian Democrat. Democrat, which. Who cares that utmost hostility. Right, Right. Well, I mean in that sense, like it's. Colorado has kind of followed Pennsylvania's lead in like becoming a blue state fairly like solidly over the course of the past 10 years or so, but electing just horrible people.
- [78:04]
Matt Binder
And he was the only Democratic member of the libertarian conservative Liberty Caucus and was the third wealthiest member of Congress with an estimated net worth of $122.6 million. What a shock that that guy would show interest in the abundance of.
- [78:20]
Emma Vigeland
I'm so surprised.
- [78:22]
Matt Binder
Or what we could call it the. Well, maybe I'll hold my fire on some of that.
- [78:26]
Emma Vigeland
All right, save it for the fun half. See you there.
- [78:29]
Matt Binder
Save it for a couple weeks.
- [78:30]
Emma Vigeland
Yeah.
- [78:33]
Sam Cedar
Okay. Emma, please.
- [78:34]
Emma Vigeland
Well, I just. I feel that my voice is sorely lacking on the majority reports.
- [78:38]
Sam Cedar
Wait, what? Look, Sam is unpopular. I do deserve a vacation at Disney World, so. Ladies and gentlemen, it is my pleasure to welcome Emma to the show.
- [78:46]
Emma Vigeland
It is Thursday.
- [78:48]
Matt Binder
I think you need to take over for Sam.
- [78:50]
Sam Cedar
Yes, please. No, no, no. I'm, I'm. I'm going to pause you right there. Wait, what? You can't encourage Emma to live like this. And I'll tell you why. Offered sushi and poker with boys. Twerk. Sushi and poker with boys. Who was offered a tour. Yeah, sushi and poker with boys. What tour? Sushi and poker.
- [79:12]
Emma Vigeland
Tim's upset.
- [79:13]
Sam Cedar
Twerk sushi and poker with three boys was offered with twerk. Sushi. And that's what we call biz. Twerk. Sushi and bulker with two boys. Right? Twerk.
- [79:24]
Dr. Anel Sheline
Sushi and we're gonna get demonetized.
- [79:27]
Sam Cedar
I just think that what you did to Tim Pool was mean.
- [79:30]
Emma Vigeland
Free speech.
- [79:31]
Sam Cedar
That's not what we're about here. Look at how sad he's become now. You shouldn't even talk about him. I think you're responsible.
- [79:38]
Emma Vigeland
I probably am in a certain way. But let's get to the meltdown here.
- [79:43]
Sam Cedar
Sushi and poker with the boys. Oh, my God. Wow. Sushi. I'm sorry. I'm losing my mind. Who's offered a tour? Sushi and poker with the boys. Sushi and poker. I think I'm like a little kid. Think I'm like a little kid. Think I'm like a dick. Twerk. I think I'm like a little kid. Think I'm like a little kid. Had this debate 7,000 times. A little kid. Think I'm like a little kid. Little kid. Think I'm like a dick. I'm losing my mind. So I'm not trying to be a dick right now, but, like, I absolutely think the US should be providing me with a wife and kids.
- [80:18]
Emma Vigeland
That's not what we're talking about here.
- [80:22]
Sam Cedar
It's not a fun job. Twerk. That's a real thing. That's that real thing. Real thing. Willy Walker. That's a real thing. That's that real thing. That's a real thing. That's got a real thing. Real thing. That's a real thing that's offered at work. Ladies and gentlemen, Joe Rogan has done it again. That's a real thing. Oh, I think he might be blowing it out of proportion. Real thing. That's. Boys that offered work. That's a real thing. That's. Let's go, Joey. Sushi and poker. Sushi and poker. Things have really gotten out of hand. Sushi and poker. Boys. You don't have a clue as to what's going on.
- [81:06]
Emma Vigeland
Sam has the weight of the world on his shoulders. Sam doesn't want to do this show anymore.
- [81:11]
Sam Cedar
Anymore.
- [81:12]
Emma Vigeland
It was so much easier when the majority of reporters. It was just you.
- [81:16]
Sam Cedar
Let's change the subject. Rangers and Knicks right now.
- [81:20]
Emma Vigeland
Shut up. Don't want people saying reckless things on your program.
- [81:23]
Sam Cedar
That's one of the most difficult parts about this show.
- [81:26]
Emma Vigeland
This is the Pro Killing Podcast.
- [81:28]
Sam Cedar
I'm thinking maybe it's time to bury the hatchet.
- [81:30]
Emma Vigeland
Left his best. Violet.
- [81:32]
Sam Cedar
Don't be foolish and don't tweet at me. And don't. The way Emma has cucked all of these people.
- [81:39]
Emma Vigeland
That's where my heart is. So I wrote my honors thesis about it. Oh, she wrote an honors thesis. I guess I should hand the main.
- [81:48]
Sam Cedar
Mic to you now. You are to the right of me on foreign policy.
- [81:51]
Emma Vigeland
We already formed Israel, dude. Are you against us?
- [81:54]
Sam Cedar
That's a tougher question I haven't answered. Incredible Theme song.
- [82:02]
Emma Vigeland
Hi, bumbler.
- [82:03]
Dr. Anel Sheline
Emma.
- [82:03]
Sam Cedar
Vin. Absolutely one of my favorite people, actually.
- [82:07]
Dr. Anel Sheline
Not just in the game, like, period.