← The Majority Report with Sam Seder
The Majority Report with Sam Seder
2482 - Trump's Attack on the IRS & Tesla gets DOGE'd w/ Merici Vinton
01:18:37
Elon Musk's star is in retrograde following Tesla's abysmal earnings report. This as Trump continues to take a sledge hammer to the IRS and other federal agencies. We have Merici Vinton on the show today, who is a former staffer at the U.S. Digital...
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- [00:01]
Sam Seder
Hey folks. You know, for a long time I knew absolutely nothing about wines. And then my sister worked in Italy for a wine distributor and then I knew 99% nothing about wines except for the 1% which was I'll let my sister decide and tell me what wine it is. I have literally many times sent her pictures of wine menus and or if I'm in a store taking pictures of it. But now I don't have to worry about that. And why? Because this podcast is sponsored by naked wines. It's 2025. Do you still shop for wine like it's 2005? Naked Wines is a service that directly connects you with the world's finest independent winemakers so you can get award winning wine delivered straight to your door. Use our code Majority for the code and the password@nakedwines.com and get their incredible deal of six bottles for just 39. 99. And I will tell you this, they are my sister approved. We had a bunch for Thanksgiving last year. We got all six and they had an. I mean they have a wide array of wines, but I had a fantastic Syrah. Yes, nice and peppery Syrah. Syrah. Naked Wines connects winemakers with wine drinkers directly, allowing for vineyard to your door delivery at up to 60% off what you'd pay for in a store. I also know from my sister that margins are huge, but when you cut out the traditional retail middleman costs and markups, winemakers can pass those savings on to you without skimping on quality. Naked Wines has been around for over 15 years and funds over 90 independent wine makers around the world. With no commitments or membership fees. You can enjoy Naked Wines hassle free. And don't forget, you can pause or cancel at any time. So just because you got a trip coming up or a little backlog doesn't mean you can't enjoy Naked Wines before or after that much needed vacation or just to, you know, slow your roll or start it back up. Now's the time to join Naked Wines community. Head to nakedwines.com Majority Click Enter Voucher. Put in our code Majority for both the code and the password for six bottles of wine for just 39.99 with shipping included. That's a hundred bucks off your first six bottles at nakedwines.com majority then use the code and password majority for six bottles of wine for 39.99. Now time for the show the Majority Report with Sam Cedar. It is Wednesday, April 23rd, 2025. My name is Sam Seder. This is the five time award winning Majority Report. We are broadcasting live steps from the industrially ravaged Gowanus Canal in the heartland of America, downtown Brooklyn, usa. On the program today, Marisi Vinton, former staffer at Doge. She was a member of the U.S. digital Service Department, got absorbed into Doge and now she's not there. Also a former advisor at the IRS and Consumer Protection Finance, Consumer Financial Protection Bureau. Meanwhile, Donald Trump seemingly reverses on trying to fire the Fed chair. And simultaneously, Trump hints at reducing China tariffs because it's going so well.
- [04:01]
Matt
I made my point.
- [04:02]
Sam Seder
And Speaking of coincidentally, Trump's economic approval rating drops to 36.7%. And speaking of dropping TE, Tesla profits crater, but mysteriously its stock rises. Huh. As Trump stops investigation into Russian war crimes in Ukraine. US Offers Ukrainian territory to Russia for peace. Health and Human Services plans to cut national suicide hotlines program for LGBTQ youth. Republican House is planning a rescission vote in weeks that may cut substantially more from the government. RFK Jr. Launching an autism database that doesn't sound disturbing. And looking to reverse CDC Covid recommendation vaccine vaccine recommendation for children. Congressional Democrats travel to Louisiana to demand release of Mahmoud Khalil and Rumsa Oz Turk. EPA laying off environmental justice employees. And Veteran affairs employees are encouraged to report colleagues who appear to be anti Christian. All this and more on today's Majority Report. Welcome, ladies and gentlemen. Thanks so much for joining us. Emma Vigland, off today, Matt's looking at me like, wait, what the va Anti Christian?
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Matt
What does that mean?
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Sam Seder
This. It was Supreme Court, moot court, I think it was yesterday. Not moot court, oral arguments, I should say, about the don't say gay bill that schools were trying to get rid of because, you know, some people are gay. And pretending that gay people don't exist is problematic not just for gay people, but for all people because you're living in some type of like bizarro world and schools are supposed to educate. But we are seeing an increasing push from the right. This has been ongoing for the past several decades where religious values trump, at least in the opinion of the Supreme Court and in the conservatives, largely that religious values trump civil values, that your religion can supersede the laws of our society. And apparently at the va, if there is behavior that, you know, somebody has a religious edict, and I can, I should be more specific, a Christian one, because I doubt that they would be telling colleagues to watch out for folks who are not allowing people to pray towards Mecca. Right. I was gonna say Islam at some point during the day. So. But we may get to that story in a bit.
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Matt
Just look up section 28 in the UK, which was the law against promoting homosexuality as they put it back in 1988, and how that turned out.
- [07:55]
Sam Seder
Yeah, I mean, it could very well be. Also, if you like, you have someone who at the VA who refused to work with someone who's gay because their religious values, they don't believe in it. We've seen this in the context of pharmacies and whatnot. Meanwhile, the. We have a former member of Doge on the program today. She's going to be talking specifically about stuff at the irs, but there's going to be a new former member of Doge quite soon. And that of course is Elon Musk. In part it's because he was a special advisor to the government and you can only be on for 120 days in that instance. But if things were going a little bit better for Doge and for Elon Musk, I suspect he'd stick around. According to the Washington Post, Musk is ready to leave his government role because he's tired of what he sees as a litany of vicious and unethical attacks from the left. And one of those people, I guess on the left is Treasury Secretary Scott Passant, who was mad that Elon Musk inserted his preferred candidate at the IRS instead of bessance that didn't last very long. That guy got booted. Musk is already also, I guess, in a like active fight with like three or four other cabinet members, which is really surprising because he seems like a very charming guy.
- [09:46]
Matt
I thought you're gonna say three or four other mothers of his children.
- [09:49]
Sam Seder
Yeah, well, and yesterday there was a shareholder call where Elon Musk had to reveal that Tesla's net income slid 71% in the first quarter. I can tell you that if, if our net income slid 71% in the first quarter, yours, the only voice you would hear would be mine. You wouldn't be able to see me and you probably wouldn't be able to listen live. And you may actually have to come to my apartment to hear what I'm saying. This is the other amazing part. The Tesla reported adjusted earnings of per share of $0.27, which missed analysts expectations of $0.41. Now that is a 25% miss. And it's not like these analysts were not aware of what was going on. They just assumed that it wouldn't be this bad. Here's the weird part. Tesla shares were up more than 3% in after hours trading on Tuesday after gaining 4 and a half percent 4.6 ahead of the first quarter report. So in anticipation, anticipation of this report, the stock goes up four and a half points, a little more than that. And then when all those people, in anticipation of this report hear that net income slid 71% and adjusted earnings were 25% lower than anticipated, they said, I'm buying more of that stock. Let me tell you what I would do if I was the world's richest man. Now I'm not. So maybe I don't think the proper way. But if we were going to do an earnings report from the jury report and it was to come out and say it's dropped by 3/4 and we missed analyst expectations by 25% and majority report was a publicly owned company, I'll tell you what I would do if I had billions of dollars. Now, I doubt people are this smart to figure this out, but what I would do in the run up to the report is I would buy a lot of stock, forcing the price up. And then afterwards what I would do is buy a lot of stock and forcing the price up. That's what I would do if I were the richest man. But I'm also the type of guy who has hired somebody to play video games for me so that I can get on the leaderboard that the local pizza place. That's why I used to do, when I was a kid, I would pay people to play Asteroids for me at the local pizza place so they could put in Sam and I could brag to all my friends. Meanwhile, here is Elon Musk on his shareholder call yesterday and still trying to maintain, I guess, his relationship with Trump and being gentle about how much Donald Trump has effed up the whole tariff situation. I mean, we got Trump backing off of the tariffs. We got Scott Passant going into private meetings going like that, actually decoupling. I think this is probably unsustainable. Incidentally, he also went into a room full of traders the day before it was announced that there was a possibility that things were going to get rolled back and sort of implied that things are going to get rolled back and.
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Matt
That, I mean, have a little heads up.
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Sam Seder
Nice to have a heads up. Here's Elon Musk.
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Elon Musk
I just want to emphasize that the tariff decision is entirely up to the President of the United States. I will weigh in with my advice with the president, which he will listen to my advice. But then it's up to him, of course, to make his decision posit.
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Sam Seder
I love how he couldn't bring himself to say he may not listen to Me, he'll listen to my advice, my disregard it. Yeah, he can't articulate that. I had that same argument, to be honest with you, with my son. My son said, you don't listen to me. And I go, I listen to you, but I'm not going to do what you say.
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Matt
Look, I'll give you a little car show in the front of the White House, but I don't know if I'm.
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Sam Seder
Going to go off terror. But my son somehow did not seem so excited that he had that he would just capture my attention. He wasn't bragging about it to his friends. My dad listens to me. Then he does something different, but he doesn't do that. That's weird.
- [14:56]
Elon Musk
It's my advice. But then it's up to him, of course, to make his decision. I. I've been on the record many times as saying that I believe lower tariffs are generally a good idea for prosperity. But this decision is fundamentally up to the elected representative of the people, being the President of the United States. So, you know, I'll continue to advocate for lower tariffs rather than higher tariffs, but that's all I can do.
- [15:27]
Sam Seder
There you go. Elon Musk making a beeline out. In a moment, we're going to be talking to Mauricio Vinton, former staffer at doge, to talk about how they have. And let's be clear, DOGE simply aligned with Republican principles. DOGE was just a mechanism to do exactly what Project 2025 wanted to do. And they are continuing on with the program. They're just moving to phase two and going through it through the channels that they had already anticipated having to go through it. And their destruction of the IRS has been a long time desired or desire, I should say, of the right. We'll be talking to her in just a moment. But first, according to the cdc, or what's left of it, fewer men than women meet the minimum daily intake recommendations for fruits and vegetables. I will cop to that probably as well. Matt, you don't even have to say a word. Soda is not a vegetable. Men are more likely to overvalue exercise and undervalue nutrition. That is exactly. I would say that's the whole point.
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Matt
Of exercise, is you don't have to value nutrition.
- [16:57]
Sam Seder
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Matt
I mean my grandma's obsessed with it.
- [22:36]
Sam Seder
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- [26:40]
Maurici Vinton
Thanks for having me.
- [26:43]
Sam Seder
Let's, let's start with Doge. You were working at the U.S. digital Service Department. Just give us a sense of what the U.S. digital Service Department did and then what happened when Donald Trump won.
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Maurici Vinton
Absolutely. So USDS before the inauguration was full of really mission driven people, engineers and product managers and data scientists and designers who really wanted to simplify the experiences that people have with their government, the interactions really wanted to put users first. So making sure that if we were designing a form or a new service that it was something that people understood how to use because then they wouldn't need to follow up with you, which is how we defined efficiency. And so that's it was a really great group of mission driven people.
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Sam Seder
And I mean, give me like just one like a broad sense of the challenge involved in that because I think for some people it sounds like an easy thing to do. But there's obviously like sort of all of these legacy systems that have been developed. And, and you know, we've talked about this in the context of like the government payment system and the systems that, you know, track Social Security. The, the primary value you want in systems like that is reliability and consistency. And sometimes that comes at the expense of other things. And, and it also makes it harder to sort of update. I mean, you know, if we I can shut down majorityreportradio.com, you know, overnight if I want to redo the website. But there's a lot of government services you can't do that with.
- [28:33]
Maurici Vinton
That's spot on. It is. It's a real responsibility to do this work in a way to not stop or to not have bugs. I'll actually share the story of Direct File. It was a free tax filing service that we did at the irs, was hugely successful, hugely loved by its users.
- [28:53]
Sam Seder
And let me just jump in here and just remind people. It was piloted in 2023 and I think about 10 states and and then did well enough that it was brought, it was released for everybody. And was this, this was going to be the first filing year where it was released to everybody, wasn't it?
- [29:15]
Maurici Vinton
It was still limited to 25 states. So what we wanted to do is work with states that had the capacity with their IT team. So it was a semi complicated rollout to states, but it was available in 25 states this year, up from last year. Yes, and it was really loved by users. I wanted to use that as an example because it kind of demonstrates how you can do this really hard work. Taxes are not easy, as we probably can all relate to. And we did it in a way where we worked with users from day. So every word, every screen on Direct File was put in front of people to make sure it made sense. But then getting to the systems and the complexity, we also had to do that within the IRS environment. We had to make sure that when we launched, not only was it going to be a launch that worked for our users and there wasn't a massive bug, but also that the systems that the IRS has weren't, weren't going to be greatly impacted by that launch. And so it's always a trade off. And what we found is that you always had to have a hint of a plan A and a plan B and sometimes a plan D to get over the line, but it was really important that we made sure that, you know, both taxpayers were getting their, were able to file their taxes and also that the IRS systems could handle that additional load. And that is what it's like in government, in all government. IT teams.
- [30:44]
Sam Seder
Tell us a little more specifically about that product because I don't think people realize how, I mean, it's both, it's both a major achievement in terms of being able to roll this thing out in two years to get to almost, you know, half the population, make it available to half the population that would be interested in it. This is if your taxes are relatively straightforward, which they are for the vast majority of people, and it's free. So you don't have to go to, you don't have to use TurboTax, you don't have to go to H and R Block, you don't have to go to all that. So that the, the technical achievement was big. As a policy thing, it's huge. And the politics behind it are also very difficult because there's a reason why we're the only government, I think, like, you know, sort of industrialized nation that doesn't already have something like this because there was moneyed interest to prevent this from actually ever happening.
- [31:50]
Maurici Vinton
Yeah, it's all true. So I think part of the story for me personally, I moved to, moved back to D.C. from London and I was very, very surprised that this didn't exist yet, that people couldn't file their taxes for free directly with the irs. And when I think about the only things the government does, that's one of the core things it must do. And so that was kind of my perspective and the attitude I took to it. But we got, you know, we got the idea as a policy concept over the line and then we went out to build the product. There were a couple of things that we were really, you know, that were really important to us. In addition to that great user experience and making sure that people with all different accessibility needs could use it, we also wanted to build a team in house. We wanted the government, we wanted the IRS to have a great product team of individuals from, you know, from the private sector that really threw their attention, their love and their focus on it. Year after year, feature after feature, we did over 40 updates to the product, I'm sorry, over a thousand updates to the product during filing season and fixing bugs and making that user experience even better, also increasing the accuracy. You know, when we would see different rejected rates come, reasons come through from tax return, we wanted to understand, can we simplify the language to increase that, that accepted rate even more. And so it's really great to see what it's like when you actually have that capacity in house. And we really wanted to take that through the wider IRS as far as their overall modernization effort.
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Sam Seder
Let's. I want to get to sort of like you set up almost like the predicate for like a horror movie, because this is the, you know, you've set the, you've created the image of like a, I mean, a simplified tax system. Like, you know, we, for years we would hear like, you know, taxes should be something you could fill out on an index card. And then of course, you know, it's never going to be that simple, but this was about as close to that sort of notion that you could get. And then Doge happened. Let me. What was it? Let's just start with like you're working for the US Digital Services and then you're going over and helping the IRS do this. I mean the digital services, that's basically what you did across the thing. What happened when Doge took over and then what happened to at the irs, you know, from you at least from that technical standpoint after Doge took over.
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Maurici Vinton
Yeah, I can talk about both experiences. So the U.S. digital Service, the day after the inauguration. So the first day of the administration, all 162 USCIS employees were brought in for 15 minute interviews. So we were kind of at first trial run of what it's like to interview 162 people in a day. And the people you know, we were told these are new teammates that are excited to meet us. And what we were met with was people who would only provide their first names. If you'd ask a follow up question, like what brings you to government? You were told, which was this actually happened not to me, but to my coworker, they were told this is a one way conversation only. I mean that's not a very threatening question. What makes you excited to be here? So that was that kind of, that first set of interactions really set the tone for this new.
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Sam Seder
What kind of questions did they ask you?
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Maurici Vinton
Oh, they were, who is your favorite person at the US Digital Service? Who's your favorite teammate? What makes you exceptional? What's your favorite product that you've worked on in government? It was so quick. And also the questions didn't to me really seem to be with people who understood what they were getting into. And government is, as you said, complex. There's a lot of systems, there's things to know. And asking me who my favorite teammate is doesn't really, I think, talk to the scale of the complexity of what we were trying to do and what we do every day.
- [36:06]
Sam Seder
So that was, was it your sense that they were looking for social networks so that in the event they, they. I mean when I hear those questions is almost like the, almost like a bizarro world union organizer because sussing out the social networks there, you know, you know, who are the people that I can, where, you know, once I establish some type of marker, maybe it doesn't come from you, but if, if I know that you're friends with, you know, Bill and Mary and I Find out from Mary that she likes NPR or something, then I know that Bill and, and you may be a problem.
- [36:54]
Maurici Vinton
That's a really great question and a really great theory I'd never really thought about or we discussed. We, we didn't really know what the purpose was until about. It's all Valentine's Day. So on Valentine's evening at 8:00pm When a lot of people were out dinner, 43 of my teammates were fired. And without really any reason or, you know, they weren't told. When you come to government, you expect a certain set of, you know, policies. It might be, as they say, a bit bureaucratic at times, but that's, that's what you get. And you. What we did not expect was this kind of weird interview followed by firing with no rationale, no process. People are immediately cut off from systems. And that's how they found out on Valentine's Day. So I was at dinner and my phone was off and my husband was joking around like, let's take a picture of this cool restaurant. And I turned my phone and the notifications were just going wild. And I had to ask my friends, do you still see my name in the system? Because I didn't have my work phone. So it was this really set of chaotic experiences. But I guess, you know, that just sets the tone for and for everything else that's gone on. In a way, we're just a small microcosm of the larger, of the larger scene.
- [38:14]
Sam Seder
Okay, and so once that happens, then what happens at the irs? Because, you know, we've seen this across many, many agencies. The one thing about the assault on the IRS in particular, it seems to me, is that if your argument is government efficiency, there is no other agency where the return on investment is higher than the irs. And so every person that you cut, every dollar that you save actually ends up costing you more money. And this is well established. So tell us what your experience was in terms of the way that DOGE did they specifically, were you as part of doge, brought in to sort of like efficient size or, you know, I would say undermine the irs.
- [39:11]
Maurici Vinton
That's a great question. And actually it was pretty firewalled between what is now called legacy USDS and the new DOGE team. There weren't any interactions across, like the. So I view there's the USDS DOGE and then there's like roaming doge, so people that are kind of everywhere else and ransacking government agencies. There was not a lot of interaction or facilitation between the two Doges outside of a few select individuals who sat across the top. So no, I was already at the IRS through my work with directvile and then the commissioner and the wider leadership team. So I was there kind of witnessing it as a bystander myself, witnessing kind of what happened. And we had been told, I'm sorry, Secretary Bessant had said publicly that Doge wasn't going to be inside IRS until after the filing season. So after April 15th. And so kind of what happened to the IRS was a bit delayed from other agencies. So people didn't arrive until actually the day before Valentine's Day. So till mid February.
- [40:15]
Sam Seder
And immediately understand you're sent as a member of the US Digital Services, you're basically placed inside of the IRS and they're almost on maybe semi permanent loan essentially right from agency to agency. And this happens all the time in the government, it seems to me where you're not, you brought as, not so much as a liaison but like as if the US Digital Services is a company and you're, you know, a consultant in house consultant and you're brought in there to operate these things and theoretically three or four years later you could move on or something like that.
- [40:56]
Maurici Vinton
That's a great way to describe it. And that's, that is exactly it. So you could imagine USDS was born out of the healthcare.gov collapse. So people sent in to HHS to help fix it and build it. And so that, you know, that model is we go over to agencies and we build, try to build trusting, collaborative relationships with our stakeholders. That is actually the core of how I approached my work was to gain a lot of trust with the people that were going to be responsible for helping make Direct File a success. I didn't, I wasn't there to fire them. I wasn't there to interrogate them or to question the validity of their work. I was there to actually build partnerships and to really focus on like building a great product for people. That's all any of us wanted to do. And that was how USDS used to work. The new team that came in. The way I try to think about it, or I guess the patterns that I've seen not just at the irs, but other agencies is at first they want access to the personnel systems and they want access to the personnel systems to fire people and they want access to the procurement systems to cut contracts that they deem, that they deem not useful and then they want access to data and I'm going to guess that's to make benefit determinations. And eligibility and things like that. You know, USDs, legacy USDs. When we asked for access to different systems, it was to make product improvements to direct file. It was to help databases run more efficiently, to query things faster. It was a completely different set of asks that, you know, were just night and day. So that's what happened when they came over to the irs.
- [42:38]
Sam Seder
How much of the, when they would do layoffs or they would do get rid of like, you know, they get ahold of the procurement and they would cut off contracts. How much of that was also so that none of these entities would constrain what they were going to do on the data side?
- [42:58]
Maurici Vinton
Hmm. I, you know, I think my observations was two separate efforts almost. We had a few individuals from DOGE at the IRS and I viewed it almost as two separate things. One person was really focusing on the modernization and the IT side. So really thinking through the different contracts. But the thing is, is that, you know, when you're looking at these light on line items, these vendor contracts, which is how they approach their work is let's look at, let's look at the projects and the vendors. You're actually, you're not just cutting a contract, you're typically cutting a body of work and a body of work that was delivering things to people. It might not be that. I don't really get, I didn't get the sense that that was understood that those, they're not just a cost line item. There's also a benefit to taxpayers as how I view they approach DOGE or I'm sorry, approach directvow. And so there's this kind of wider understanding that seemed to be missing in terms of how they are approaching their, their work. And same kind of on the personnel side, it just seemed to be without a lot of understanding of a strategic outcome.
- [44:12]
Sam Seder
I mean it's understandable in the sense that they would not have a concept of a government that is not looking to generate a profit but to provide a service. And that the service, there's the price of the service and there's the cost associated, I guess with the service. Right. And that someone's going to bear that cost and it's either going to be the citizen or you know, by going to TurboTax or going to H and R Block or the society, you know, in like through government. So what happened? So what did they do at the irs? I mean specifically like what did they cut that? Because again, every dollar spent at the IRS essentially returns six or seven is my understanding. And there's probably a point where you cut it, where I would imagine that it costs even more than $6 lost for every dollar cut because you hit a threshold where it's like we can't go after any of like the big whales because we just don't have the resources to go after somebody who has an army of accountants. So it sort of drops off a cliff at one point.
- [45:50]
Maurici Vinton
So I'll answer the question in a few parts. When I joined the IRS as a detail on loan from USDS in 2022, all people, all of my IRS colleagues talked about was how little capacity they had or ability they had to answer the phones. Only 12% of phone calls were answered. And there were these front page that year. There were these front page stories in national news about with photos of paper backlogs of people's tax returns at processing centers in the Midwest and in the, with inflation Reduction act. There was a lot of hiring, a lot of new technology investment that went to reduce that paper backlog and to increase the ability for the IRS to answer calls. And we got it up to 88% the next year, which is like heroic that that even was possible. So when you ask what they're cutting, they're cutting that capacity. I really worry about what it's going to look like next year during filing season, what the wait times are going to be this year. A lot of the filing season efforts were kind of held off from the initial probationary firings. But I know that there are rifts coming now that filing season is over. And so that's, I'm sorry, I'm sorry. Reduction in force. So that is the process by which people are being fired or placed on administrative leave. So not, not working, laid off. So I worry about next, next filing season. That's on the taxpayer side, on the call center side, when you get to the higher audits.
- [47:29]
Sam Seder
Yeah, go ahead. Before we get to the audits, I just also want to make it clear that when the response time, when the backlog increases, when the phone calls don't go answered, that is a cost borne by the citizen. And to be clear, it's a cost borne by the, I don't know, people are probably in the top 75 percentile of earnings. Above that, they have accountants who are waiting on the phone. They have, you know, H and R block that's waiting on the phone or they have, they're not having to do it. So the, the cost associated to, you know, wealthier people is, is less, doesn't inhibit their productivity. They don't have to take time off from work, they don't have to use their day off or whatever it is.
- [48:26]
Maurici Vinton
That's exactly right. I mean I was, I remember I was at a shop in Pennsylvania and a woman said just, she didn't know where I worked. She was just talking to a friend and said she'd been on the phone on hold for seven hours the previous day and she had to finally hang up. So that's an example of what it was like. And there were plans to have better technology to make it so that it was less reliant on, you know, so so many call center agents, there are ways to make it all more efficient. And we were all in that direction, but unfortunately never got there. And that capacity and that team has been cut on the compliance side. So effectively what the Inflation Reduction act did was to kind of rebuild a whole bunch of the capacity to go after and to explore those larger, more complex cases. Obviously it did happen, but not at the scale and the pace of which, you know, these large corporations are. High net worth wealth. Individuals were, were growing and those were. So in their probationary firings In February, roughly 7,000 people were let go. Probationary. Probationary means they, they were new. Right? So new talent hired in the last two years.
- [49:45]
Sam Seder
New talent or promoted talent.
- [49:47]
Maurici Vinton
Yes, yes. So you're, you're like, you know, your brand new excited teammates and also the ones that had achieved a lot of really great work within the IRS. The teams that do that auditing, it was 90% their teams that were impacted. So of the 7,000 people, roughly 6,700 were fired during the probationary firings. And I expect that ratio to continue as they go through more layoffs. So it's just, I don't know what next season is going to look like in terms of, you know, the call center, but also in the IRS's ability to explore those large cases and just.
- [50:25]
Sam Seder
Want to make it clear to the Biden administration when they hired these new essentially compliance officers, people are just going to audit and make sure that, you know, wealthy people are paying the taxes that they, they need. And you can see from, you can see a graph from the funding of IRS and who and the relative amounts of audits that were performed based on high earners and in mid to low earners change. As the budget for the IRS shrinks, the percentage of high earner audits take place drops because it's just much more work intensive and you don't have those resources. You go for the low hanging fruit, which is someone who doesn't necessarily have a lawyer, doesn't have an accountant. And these people are brought on during the Biden administration with a vow that people under, who earn under $400,000 will not be subject to more audits. That number is not going to change. The only number that's going to rise are people who are making over $400,000, I think it was. Yep. And so those are the people who are cut because those are the people. Right on. And it's, it's a field day now, I would imagine for, I mean if I'm an accountant and I'm advising someone of, of that type of income, I'm like maybe a year ago I would have said don't take this deduction or whatever it is. But today, yeah, I mean that's basically the dynamic.
- [52:09]
Maurici Vinton
Anecdotally that dynamic is playing out across, you know, friends and also we, so directval had a customer support team. It was all live chat and people were consistently asking that like is the, is the IRS going to be here by the end of April? Maybe I can just not pay my taxes. People are volunteering those questions. And I think, yeah, so I think that that's not a dynamic that's playing out not just among people who think that they can of find an extra loophole, but also there's a real kind of shaking in the trust in the system, the trust that directvalor the IRS are going to be there for people. That was echoed all throughout filing season, unfortunately.
- [52:56]
Sam Seder
And so what happens to Direct File going forward? I mean it's sort of like year one of its sort of, I guess non probationary period and it was expanding. Does it expand now? Does it shut down? Is it functioning? I mean what, what happens?
- [53:16]
Maurici Vinton
So DOGE has indicated that they want to shut Direct File down and that is just, has been devastating news. It was reported by the AP last week that that is their intent. They've not confirmed that but it, it was, it was definitely where the conversation was going when I was still inside actually frankly. And unfortunately that again, you know, that there didn't seem to be a lot of logic behind a Direct File is a startup, you know, it is a startup within government. We thought that there would be some interest there, some over maybe there was a Venn diagram of efficient products that people love interest in that and there wasn't at all apparently. So it takes a lot of trust with states, a lot of relationship building with states and there had been no conversations with states as well. So unfortunately it looks like it's going to be another line item that they've Just decided to cut. And the Direct File team, you know, I'm not sure what their future is. They don't know what their future is. And, you know, it's just. It's really just devastating for not just taxpayers. You know, I think it's also devastating for the IRS itself. That team was so talented. Is so talented.
- [54:27]
Sam Seder
And do you have a sense of how it worked this filing season?
- [54:32]
Maurici Vinton
Oh, yeah. Okay, so the Net Promoter Score is a very common private sector kind of promoter score index that says how much people like your product or not. So last year, DirectVows was +74. Just as a. It's astronomically high. Apple's is 72. This year it was 84 +84. So somehow the Net Promoter Score, which was already inordinately high, got even higher. Direct File users, it increased their trust in the IRS by 86%. So you can actually increase trust in government when you deliver really great things that they love. So it went really well this year. There were no bugs. Everyone that used it, loved it. Some of the feedback that people gave.
- [55:24]
Sam Seder
That'S amazing to me. That is amazing to me in the best of times that you would have a product rollout that was so effective. But I would imagine that everybody associated with that was preoccupied to some degree with the idea of like, is this going to exist tomorrow? Do I have a job tomorrow? Am I at 8pm am I going to get a notice that I'm fired? And yet the thing was that successful.
- [55:51]
Maurici Vinton
You're absolutely right. That's what it was like for that team all filing season. And people were openly speculating. Elon Musk had tweeted a confusing tweet in February that led some people to believe that Direct File had been shut down. It hadn't been shut down. It was doing great. And so all throughout filing season, the team just had to focus on delivering more features they rolled out. So an Internet meme had always been, why doesn't the IRS just tell me how much I owe? Instead, they ask me, I get it wrong, and they throw me in jail. The Direct Files team started to input what they knew, what the IRS knew about you into the. Into the tax return. It started to do that pre population, and people loved it. And it worked. You know, the IRS was using that as a use case for its modernization efforts. And so it's just, it is just really, that happened during filing season. So it's just really a devastating, devastating situation for the team and for taxpayers.
- [56:52]
Sam Seder
One more question on that specific part before I hear, you know, when you left and why and and a little bit more of that with the pre population of information into taxpayers profile. If something like that grows, right? I mean like you know, in a fantasy world where Elon Musk does not exist, where Donald Trump and the Republican administration does not exist and Republicans desire to cut. The IRS does not exist as it moves forward and grows, you know, that pre population of the profiles, the ability to provide people, let's say direct payments in a pandemic situation or the child tax credits that becomes incredibly like almost like a Venmo subscription, like it just, it would have made everything much easier because that once it's pre populated and these profiles exist, the idea of treasury using that information as a way of sending money to citizens becomes much more viable, doesn't it?
- [58:06]
Maurici Vinton
Absolutely. You're spot on. And so much of actually the directval team was born out of the child tax credit expansion era. And we saw the need for a free tax filing product because we needed to reach out to people and find people that had never filed their taxes before and were eligible for the CTC for the first time. And then also for exactly as you're pointing out, the ability to quickly and rapidly deliver a benefit through the stimulus checks. Had that been something that was more automated, it would have made, you know, it would have made, it would have made taxpayers life significantly more simpler, more straightforward and governments, it would have been.
- [58:46]
Sam Seder
A lot of changes government and frankly the economy. Because the difference between waiting, you know, a month for a check versus having that money in your bank account that day, you're going to see the impact of that much quicker. Okay, so when did you leave? When did you leave Doge? Why did you leave Doge?
- [59:06]
Maurici Vinton
I left on March 11 and I had remained around for a while. I was trying to make the case for Direct File. You had a large team at USDS that was supporting Direct File as well as the IRS team. And as it became more and more clear that there was not really an open nobody was really listening to the arguments. I decided it was my time to leave. You know, people, it was really difficult to do work. People were fighting across the IRS and across the federal government. People were fighting both to do their jobs and for their jobs. And it just wasn't really a sustainable place. So that's why I left.
- [59:43]
Sam Seder
One last question. Who was in charge of Doge when you were there?
- [59:47]
Maurici Vinton
I would love to know that answer. So the acting administration, was it the.
- [59:54]
Sam Seder
Lady in Cancun on vacation?
- [59:57]
Maurici Vinton
So Amy, was the acting or is was as I don't actually know was the acting administrator sometime towards the end of February. Prior to that, there had been no decision making for legacy USDs, so there was nobody to approve a travel request or say, you can have a bigger team until. Until Amy was appointed acting administrator.
- [60:22]
Sam Seder
Did you ever meet her?
- [60:24]
Maurici Vinton
Yeah.
- [60:24]
Sam Seder
Oh, you did? So she was actually around.
- [60:27]
Maurici Vinton
Yeah, she was. And she had. We overlapped briefly. When I first joined usds, she'd done a lot of the COVID work and I. I did child tax credit expansion. So. So, yeah, she came back.
- [60:38]
Sam Seder
Oh, she was already at usds. She was already. She left digital services. She left and then she came back.
- [60:45]
Maurici Vinton
Exactly.
- [60:48]
Sam Seder
And found out that she was in charge of doge.
- [60:50]
Maurici Vinton
Correct.
- [60:52]
Sam Seder
Great. Did you ever meet Elon Musk?
- [60:54]
Maurici Vinton
I did not know.
- [60:55]
Sam Seder
Yeah. I was going to ask if he. If he, like, actually made eye contact. I would be curious about that. Is there anything else you feel like we should know? I mean, I know that you were involved in some of the early stages of Consumer Financial Protection Bureau. I imagine a lot of your experience at. Within the IRS was replicated at agencies throughout the government. I mean, it does feel like, you know, now that we're seeing there were.
- [61:29]
Maurici Vinton
There were.
- [61:29]
Sam Seder
Are we up to number four or five acting directors of the irs? This is not. I'm not. I'm not, you know, it. We literally are. Which is fascinating. I. I guess my last question would be, and maybe this is sort of outside of. Of. Of your perspective, but there's a sense that DOGE was a tool by an existing agenda that was sort of laid out in Project 2025, but also predates that in terms of, particularly in the context of the irs, but other agencies, you know, getting rid of the Department of Education, et cetera, et cetera. How much, like, how much of that did you. Did you observe? Was that observable in conversation you had with other, you know, with. With other members of the digital services that may have been embedded in other agencies. Could you observe that? Like, was that. Were the ideological agendas behind these instruments, were they clear? Were they differentiated in terms of personnel at all or approach? Because I think we've moved past sort of like doge's attempt to do whatever they were attempting to do, which largely seemed to have not saved the government any money at all, but have created the mayhem that almost like a rototiller goes and loosens up the soil, and now we have Russell votes, sort of like wave of assault on the government coming where it's more rif, as you say, reduction in force, which is different than what the, the DOGE approach was.
- [63:19]
Maurici Vinton
So I was actually open minded and a bit excited to have a team of technologists come in that said that they wanted to add more engineers and they wanted to bring more people into government with these skills. That's something we've been advocating for. It's what we did@the CFPB. We were one of the first in house teams, actually globally. And so it was like, oh great. And it became really clear, I think the Bureau of Fiscal Services, the payment systems, it became very clear that, oh, we are here for very different purposes. And that ideology, to me that's what it, that was, that first, I guess, observation was like, okay, this is two different missions. And you know, with, with old USDs, we would come in and we would want to touch those systems to make them, you know, get you a tax refund quicker or to pass a payment through to the New York State Health and Human Services, you know, for their Medicaid payment more efficiently. And, and these individuals came in to shut it off to say, nope, I'm not going to pay you and I'm not going to pay you because I don't feel like it, I don't really like you. And those are. That's when the ideology became very different. I think beyond that there's been nothing built. Nothing built. Everything has just been indiscriminate cuts of, you know, of people out of government or cuts of programs. And that's what I worry the most about is how are we going to, what's going to be left, right? What's going to be left? And are people going to be able to get through this? Is it going to impact Social Security checks and payments? Is it going to impact tax refunds? But then beyond that, how do we rebuild from there? And I think, you know, I am optimistic and I'm hopeful. I think we can build. I think, I definitely think that we have helped, we've built ourselves and we can redo it again. But it's going to take a very ambitious vision and thousands of people to help us do that.
- [65:32]
Sam Seder
What were people saying about that payment system? Because I've, you know, there we had Nathan Tankus on the program who was one of the people to ring one of the first alarms about the DOGE people messing in around the payment system. But there's also sort of like, there's the technical aspects of that and then there's also the sort of the way that you instrumentalize that system as a way of just sort of like having more authority than you should have. Because if you have the ability to just basically take money out of. You mentioned New York payments. You have the ability to take money out of someone's ledger within the government. It begins to undermine money in a way. I mean, I was just reading Nathan Tankus in his interview with Paul Krugman. If I give you a dollar, you walk away with that dollar. It's quite clear that you have that dollar, that's your dollar and you may decide to give it back to me or not. But if I give you money electronically and then have the ability at any point to pull it back, it begins to undermine the way that we perceive money on some level as it becomes increasingly, you know. Just a question of a ledger.
- [67:11]
Maurici Vinton
Yeah, absolutely. It was pretty stunning to see. It's my understanding that during the transition, so friend of BFS said to me, we've nobody's ever come to us during a transition and typically like a new administration will come to us six months in Bureau of Fiscal Services, sorry, the organization that oversees the payments and they sit within treasury, they are low key agency. Their job is to do government payments to individuals, to other government agencies and to people that, you know, to organizations that the government owes money to.
- [67:52]
Sam Seder
This is complete operational stuff. There is no policy implications to what they do. They just execute what the policymakers have done and what the, their, their, their, you know, clock, clock makers essentially.
- [68:10]
Maurici Vinton
Absolutely. And there was not an understanding that that's how it works. You know, I think what DOGE had intended to do and was made public with one of that for one of the first weekends during the administration when the head of the Bureau of Fiscal Services was asked to do something to stop a payment to usaid and he said no, that's not how this works. And then he was pushed aside and his BFS was there to facilitate the payment. It wasn't BFS's decision to, you know, that the originating home agency of that payment was the ones that wrote the policies that said this is a legitimate payment request, facilitate it. BFS and DOGE I believe really learned a lot that weekend, which is, oh, this is just, this is a, this organization is just here to facilitate those payments. And it is very different than the private sector. But that is what that organization does. And to me that was one of the first kind of insights into the differences in ideology.
- [69:16]
Sam Seder
It's interesting stuff. Marie C. Vinton former staffer at the U.S. digital Service Department I hope you have an opportunity to return someday under better circumstances. I suspect there's a lot of people who who, you know, we've lost in terms of government service people who are just looking to serve citizens and hopefully they'll be in a position to be able to come back at one point and we'll do so. Thank you so much for your time today. Really appreciate it.
- [69:50]
Maurici Vinton
Thank you. Great conversation. Thanks.
- [69:52]
Sam Seder
All right, folks, we're going to move into the fun half of the program wherein we will have fun. I think you know the I just saw some polling that just came out actually from the pccc, the Progressive Change Institute. Progressive Change Institute. Wait, is that what it is that.
- [70:23]
Matt
Progressive campaign Change Campaign Committee?
- [70:25]
Sam Seder
Yes. But this is I think from there the the Change Institute and Data for Progress and they were looking at messages that resonated across partisan affiliation and the it's interesting wrong approach to efficiency about Doge was number one and it was if we want the government to be more efficient, we should crack down on corporate tax cheats. Cut not cut benefits from families and veterans and seniors. Was the best performing with all likely voters, best performing with independents, best performing with Republicans. Apparently it was the third best with Democrats. The first best with Democrats was Musk and Doge are stealing from you by cutting Social Security and Medicare and Medicaid. But the I would bet that the political orientation of people in the US Digital services ranged from like center to center. Broadly speaking, they were just in there. They're just, they're engineers and they're in there. You know, they're very much in my experience with engineers. They a they generally say stuff that you don't understand and think that you do understand it. That's been my experience. But also are just are very project oriented it and so I don't know that's maybe a good interview to send around to your Doge supporting relatives because I mean it is just undermining the government for I mean it really does feel like that the value to the ideological project that the Republicans have was that Doge just went in there and and functioned like a rototiller and just tilled loosened the stuff up. And now Russell Vogt comes in with all of those Heritage foundation resumes and takes the little skid steer and starts to scoop up that loose soil. It's springtime. So that's where my mind is. Tilling and gardening.
- [72:59]
Matt
Cultivation.
- [73:00]
Sam Seder
Cultivation. Folks, it's your support that makes this show possible. You can become a member@jointhemajorityreport.com when you do, you get the free show free of commercials, which means you don't have to listen to those annoying commercials. Now I will say it's always worth going to check out the the show notes because you get discounts on products that I genuinely use and like, but you can just go straight to that and not have to hear me talk about it. Also, you keep the show keeping on. Help us survive and thrive by becoming a member today. Join themjorityreport.com also just coffee. Remember them? 10% off, right? Russ, we fixed that in the YouTube. Great. 10% off with the coupon code. Majority. You can get the majority report blend. You can also get the other blends. You can get that really bitter WTF blend if you want. But just coffee Co op. Matt, Left Reckoning. Yeah, Before I get to that, occurs.
- [74:16]
Matt
To me the VA does abortion care so I imagine that might run into some of the Christian issue there, the anti Christian stuff. Last night on Left Reckoning, actually we had Megan Day on talking about a lot of things from Doge to tariffs to trad wives. And her take on the Doge thing is kind of just what we were talking about, which is to look at how a place like Wells Fargo looks at it, which is, oh, the USPS is on the chopping block. Let's try to get a strip of that prime profitable stake. And you know the people who aren't, we can't service profitably. Screw them. Good luck to you. In rural North Dakota, for instance, folks who've had their postal post office person for decades. But yeah, check that out. Patreon.com left Reckoning to get access to the post game.
- [75:04]
Sam Seder
Okay, we're going to take quick break, head to the fun half. We will take your phone calls, we will read your IMs, we will tell funny anecdotes about the news today. See you there. Three months from now, six months from now, nine months from now. And I don't think it's going to be the same as it looks like in six months from now. And I don't know if it's necessarily going to be better six months from now than it is three months from now, but I think around 18 months out, we're going to look back and go like, wow, what? What is that going on? It's nuts. Wait a second. Hold on for, hold on for a second. Emma. Welcome to the program. Fun Matt. What is up, everyone? Fun Pack. No Me.
- [76:03]
Maurici Vinton
Keen, you did it.
- [76:05]
Sam Seder
Fun Pack.
- [76:06]
Maurici Vinton
Let's go, Brandon.
- [76:07]
Sam Seder
Let's go, Brandon. Fun Bradley, you want to say hello?
- [76:13]
Matt
Sorry to disappoint everyone.
- [76:15]
Sam Seder
I'm just a random guy. It's all the boys today.
- [76:17]
Maurici Vinton
Fundamentally false. No I'm sorry. Women.
- [76:20]
Sam Seder
Stop talking for a second. Let me finish. Where is this coming from?
- [76:23]
Maurici Vinton
Dude.
- [76:24]
Sam Seder
But. Dude, you want to smoke this? 7A. Yes. All right. Yes. Is this me? Is it me? It is you. Is this me? Hello? Is this me? I think it is you. Who is you? No sound. Every single freaking day. What's on your mind? We can discuss free markets and we can discuss capitalism. I'm gonna go sky Libertarians. They're so stupid. Though common sense says. Of course.
- [77:02]
Maurici Vinton
Gobbledygook.
- [77:03]
Sam Seder
We nailed him.
- [77:05]
Maurici Vinton
So what's 79 plus 21?
- [77:07]
Sam Seder
Challenge. Man. I'm positively quivering. I believe 96. I want to say 8, 5, 7, 2, 1, 0. 855-0-1, 1-2. 3, 8, 9, 11. For instance.
- [77:17]
Maurici Vinton
$3,400. $1900. 5, 4.
- [77:20]
Sam Seder
$3 trillion.
- [77:22]
Matt
Sold.
- [77:23]
Sam Seder
It's a zero sum game.
- [77:25]
Maurici Vinton
Actually. You're making me think less.
- [77:26]
Sam Seder
But. But let me say this.
- [77:27]
Maurici Vinton
This you call satire. Sam goes satire on top of it all. My favorite part about you is just like every day, all day, like everything you do.
- [77:38]
Sam Seder
Without a doubt. Hey, buddy. We seen you. All right, folks, folks, folks.
- [77:48]
Maurici Vinton
It's just the week being weeded out. Obviously.
- [77:51]
Sam Seder
Yeah. Sun's out, guns out. I. I don't know. But you should know, people just don't.
- [78:01]
Matt
Like to entertain ideas anymore.
- [78:03]
Sam Seder
I have a question. Who cares?
- [78:06]
Matt
Our chat is enabled.
- [78:09]
Sam Seder
I love it.
- [78:10]
Maurici Vinton
I do love that.
- [78:13]
Sam Seder
Gotta jump. Gotta be quick. I gotta jump. I'm losing it, bro. 2:00, we're already late and the guy's being a dick. So screw him. Sent to a gulag.
- [78:25]
Maurici Vinton
Outrageous.
- [78:26]
Sam Seder
Like, what is wrong with you? Love you.
- [78:30]
Maurici Vinton
Bye.
- [78:32]
Sam Seder
Love you. Bye.