2486 - Trump's Assault on the Regulatory State & Canada's Elections w/ Rohit Chopra & Luke Savage

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Majority Report with Sam Seder – Episode 2486

Title: Trump’s Assault on the Regulatory State & Canada’s Elections w/ Rohit Chopra & Luke Savage
Release Date: April 29, 2025
Host: Sam Seder
Guests: Rohit Chopra (Former CFPB Head & FTC Chair) & Luke Savage (Canadian Journalist & Jacobin Columnist)

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Introduction

In Episode 2486 of The Majority Report with Sam Seder, host Sam Seder delves into two pivotal topics: former Consumer Financial Protection Bureau (CFPB) head Rohit Chopra discusses the Trump administration’s aggressive moves against regulatory bodies, and Canadian journalist Luke Savage analyzes the recent Canadian elections amid escalating U.S.-Canada tensions.

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Amazon’s Tariff Transparency and the Trump Administration’s Response

The episode opens with a discussion on Amazon’s initiative to display tariff-related costs next to product prices. Sam Seder highlights the potential benefits of such transparency for consumers:

Sam Seder [04:47]: "I like that type of transparency. We should know if they're going to jack up the cost not just for those things that they pay a tariff on."

However, this move was met with fierce opposition from the Trump administration. White House Press Secretary Caroline Levitt condemned Amazon’s actions as politically motivated:

Caroline Levitt [05:40]: "This is a hostile and political act by Amazon. Why didn't Amazon do this when the Biden administration hiked inflation to the highest level in 40 years?"

The administration's rhetoric suggests an attempt to undermine Amazon’s transparency measures, framing them as attacks on American businesses.

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Interview with Rohit Chopra: The Assault on the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau

Timestamp: [24:28] – [51:47]

Rohit Chopra provides an in-depth analysis of the Trump administration’s targeted efforts to dismantle the CFPB, a crucial agency designed to protect consumers from financial malpractices.

Role and Achievements of the CFPB

Chopra underscores the CFPB’s essential functions, especially in the aftermath of the 2008 financial crisis:

Rohit Chopra [25:38]: "Since that agency was started, it has hauled in over $21 billion, just returning that to consumers who were treated by companies like Wells Fargo and Navient."

He emphasizes the agency’s role in enforcing fair practices across various financial products, including mortgages, credit cards, auto loans, and student loans.

Impact of Defunding and Staff Reduction

Chopra laments the significant reduction in CFPB staff orchestrated by the Trump administration:

Rohit Chopra [27:56]: "All of those employees, all of those investigators, those inspectors, they've been benched. They have been told to stop all of their work."

This dismantling severely hampers the CFPB’s ability to monitor and regulate financial institutions, increasing the risk of consumer exploitation.

Consequences for Consumers and the Economy

Chopra warns of the broader economic implications, particularly in the face of rising consumer debt and potential recession:

Rohit Chopra [34:47]: "You're more at risk of getting cheated. This is a bizarre defund the Wall Street Police gambit."

He highlights the CFPB’s past successes in mitigating predatory practices and the looming threat posed by its weakened state, especially regarding emerging financial products like Buy Now, Pay Later (BNPL) services.

Examples of CFPB’s Enforcement

Chopra cites specific instances where the CFPB made significant impacts:

• Overdraft Fees: Targeting banks like Wells Fargo for exploiting overdraft charges ([32:53]).
• Auto Loans and Credit Reports: Addressing erroneous information affecting consumers’ financial standings ([32:53]).

Future Implications and Legal Actions

Chopra discusses the potential for civil and tort actions against the administration’s failure to uphold regulatory standards:

Rohit Chopra [39:57]: "I'm seeing things like Doordash partnering with Klarna... this is getting more and more integrated into our economy."

He suggests that state attorneys general may play a pivotal role in restoring accountability and protecting consumer rights in the absence of a functioning CFPB.

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Interview with Luke Savage: Canada’s Election Amid U.S.-Canada Tensions

Timestamp: [51:47] – [84:15]

Luke Savage offers a comprehensive breakdown of the recent Canadian elections, contextualizing them within the strained U.S.-Canada relations exacerbated by President Trump’s policies.

Election Results Overview

Savage outlines the dramatic shift in Canadian politics:

• Liberal Party: Historically dominant since 2015 under Justin Trudeau, they faced a significant decline following Trudeau’s ousting and mounting economic pressures.
• Conservative Party: Led by Pierre Polievra, they achieved unprecedented success, marking their best performance since 1988 despite Polievra losing his own seat.
• New Democratic Party (NDP): Suffered a historic low, losing two-thirds of their traditional vote share as many voters shifted to the Liberals.

Luke Savage [57:46]: "The NDP has seen its worst result ever, with about two-thirds of its traditional vote going to the Liberals."

Impact of U.S. Policies on Canadian Politics

Savage attributes part of the electoral shift to the growing animosity towards the U.S., particularly President Trump’s aggressive stance:

Luke Savage [74:06]: "Canada is a nation of 40 million people spread out pretty thinly over a vast territory... Trump’s threats of annexation have a lot of weight in the Canadian psyche."

This sentiment galvanized voters to support candidates advocating for a more independent and resilient Canadian economy.

Pierre Polievra’s Conservative Surge

Despite leadership challenges, Polievra successfully captured a significant portion of the electorate:

Luke Savage [65:26]: "Pierre Polievra has built a public image as a socially conscientious figure, appealing to both traditional Conservative and disillusioned NDP voters."

His ability to address social issues while maintaining conservative economic policies resonated with a broad voter base.

Future Implications for Canada’s Economy and US Relations

Savage discusses the necessity for Canada to rethink its economic strategies in response to the deteriorating trade relationships with the U.S.:

Luke Savage [76:46]: "The Canadian economy is a raw extraction economy in many places... it’s going to require a comprehensive rethinking of Canada’s entire economy."

He expresses skepticism about the Liberal Party’s capacity to effectively manage this transition without a clear majority, indicating potential policy gridlocks and the need for coalition-building with smaller parties.

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Conclusion

Episode 2486 of The Majority Report with Sam Seder presents a critical examination of the Trump administration’s efforts to undermine financial regulations through the CFPB and explores the significant political realignment in Canada influenced by heightened U.S.-Canada tensions. Through insightful conversations with Rohit Chopra and Luke Savage, the podcast underscores the broader implications for consumer protection, economic stability, and international relations.

Notable Quotes:

• Rohit Chopra [25:38]: "Since that agency was started, it has hauled in over $21 billion, just returning that to consumers."
• Caroline Levitt [05:40]: "This is a hostile and political act by Amazon."
• Luke Savage [57:46]: "The NDP has seen its worst result ever, with about two-thirds of its traditional vote going to the Liberals."
• Rohit Chopra [34:47]: "This is getting more and more integrated into our economy."

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For more detailed discussions and updates, visit Majority.FM.

Transcript

[Emma Vigland]

You are listening to a free version of the Majority Report. Support this [e-mail] and get an extra hour of content daily.

[Sam Cedar]

It is Tuesday, April 29, 2025. My name is Sam Cedar. This is the five time award winning Majority Report. We are broadcasting live steps from the industrially ravaged Gowanus Canal in the heartland of America, downtown Brooklyn, usa. On the program today, Rohit Chopra, former head of the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau, also former head of the ftc, on the assault on the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau and how it's just been at least its execution has been stayed, as it were then. Luke Savage, Canadian journalist, columnist at Jacobin, on Donald Trump's defeat in Canada, more specifically, Carney. Meanwhile, 1,361 days left in the Trump administration and a majority now see him as a dangerous dictator who has made the economy worse. Meanwhile, Carney wins the Canadian prime minister race unclear if Liberals will have an outright majority and shut out the NDP which did terribly yesterday. Meanwhile, consumer debt at an all time high and US Consumer confidence plunges to its lowest level in five years. Oh, during COVID right when it hit all authors numbering in the hundreds of scientists of the flagship US climate report fired. And a 23 year old doge bro gains all access to to classified accounts on classified networks, I should say with nuclear secrets. Trump hollowing out the doj civil rights office ICE seeking out unaccompanied immigrant children to deport. Trump signs an executive order directing the DOJ to seek funds to deprive sanctuary cities. Putin calls for a ceasefire in May. Measles cases now at 900 across the country and growing. Don't worry, it's healthy for you. And Amazon scraps plans to show tariff itemized costs after the Trump administration goes ballistic. And incidentally, China still says no talks. All this and more on today's Majority Report. Did I say Tuesday at the front?

[Emma Vigland]

Yeah, I think so.

[Sam Cedar]

All right, Emma Vigland, you do the honors then.

[Emma Vigland]

News Day Tuesday.

[Sam Cedar]

News Day Tuesday. That's right. We got a lot to talk about. We got a couple of great guests on Today. Let's start with this. This morning there were news reports that Amazon was intending to put a little line. I mean you get like when you buy something on any online plate, I mean really, I guess even in IRL as it were, you'll get like a breakdown like tax, here's a weird service fee that probably means nothing. Here's, you know, sometimes now at restaurants, I, I, you know in New York you get like calorie counts. No, I mean, like, no, not a tip, but like a, a service fee for, you know, to, to make sure the people in the back of the kitchen get paid, that type of thing or something like that. And Amazon apparently was a planning to attribute part of the costs of, of any item, which, I mean, frankly, I like that type of transparency. We should know if they're going to jack up the cost not just for those things that they pay a tariff on, but we should also know that if the prices go up on something, they can't falsely attribute it to tariffs in general.

[Emma Vigland]

Right.

[Sam Cedar]

And that was their plan, which seems like a very reasonable thing to do. And that was a declaration of war as far as the Trump administration was concerned. Here is Caroline Levitt. She is the White House press secretary, one of the senior members of the administration relative to like the Doge boys. I'm talking in terms of age.

[Emma Vigland]

Oh, she is in her upper 20s, so it makes her a very seasoned veteran.

[Sam Cedar]

Yep. And here she is talking about this despicable move by Amazon. I don't know why they're not proud of it because we're gonna be making so much money that we're not gonna have to pay. There's not gonna be any income taxes. It's great for the economy. We get to see how the tariffs are working in real time.

[Rohit Chopra]

Most transparent administration.

[Luke Savage]

So it was reported this morning that Amazon will soon display a little number next to the price of each product that how much the Trump tariffs are adding to the cost of each product. So isn't that a perfect, crystal clear demonstration that it's the American consumer and not China who is going to have to pay for these policies?

[Sam Cedar]

Ms.

[Caroline Levitt]

I will take this since I just got off the phone with the president about Amazon's announcement. This is a hostile and political act by Amazon. Why didn't Amazon do this when the Biden administration hiked inflation to the highest level in 40 years? And I would also add that.

[Sam Cedar]

I'll pause it for one, one second. How would, how would you. I'm just trying to work this out. How would you go like the, what would they do? Put a line item that go like the Biden inflation hike that the plandemic attacks?

[Rohit Chopra]

Probably because it was the sellers that were hiking prices and not the Biden administration telling them to raise prices.

[Sam Cedar]

And incidentally, they let you knew that the prices were raised, but you could see the number. Right. Like, I mean, according to Donald Trump, the line item for tariffs should be zero cents. And it would be a great way to prove to the American public that you're not paying for the tariffs. I mean, maybe in some instances it could actually be negative. Like China paid this.

[Emma Vigland]

Right.

[Rohit Chopra]

Even though it's coming out of your bank.

[Sam Cedar]

Well, it's sort of the same dynamic. Mexico is going to pay for the wall. We're just going to front them the money.

[Rohit Chopra]

Just give me $8 and China will pay it eventually.

[Sam Cedar]

Go back. And the amazing thing is like first off, this press conference is at 8:56am so Trump is actually maybe it's like they must have said something on Fox and Friends this morning. And so he just lost it and he got on the phone with her. Like I'm paying attention to this. This freaked them out so very much. And, and well, we'll tell you the rest of the story after this.

[Caroline Levitt]

I will take this since I just got off the phone with the President about Amazon's announcement. This is a hostile and political act by Amazon. Why didn't Amazon do this when the Biden administration hiked inflation to the highest level in 40 years? And I would also add that it's not a surprise because as Reuters recently wrote, Amazon has partnered with a Chinese propaganda arm. So this is another reason why Americans.

[Sam Cedar]

Wait, was that the picture of the arm? Was that the picture of the arm? Go back there. There's the arm. Is that the Chinese propaganda arm?

[Rohit Chopra]

It's holding the Amazon fire.

[Sam Cedar]

Incidentally, didn't we ban TikTok?

[Emma Vigland]

Yeah, any day now.

[Sam Cedar]

I mean, apparently on TikTok there is a never ending stream of reminding Americans that this stuff, they're not going to get stuff or it's going to be more expensive. Now was it, why didn't Trump go through the ban on TikTok?

[Rohit Chopra]

Well, I think it's still a matter of these negotiations, right?

[Sam Cedar]

Oh, these negotiations. Oh yeah, right. I have here China says there are no trade tariff talks. This is confusing. It is. This is why we get the big money to figure this stuff out.

[Caroline Levitt]

It's not a surprise because as Reuters recently wrote, Amazon has partnered with a Chinese propaganda arm. So this is another reason why Americans should buy American. It's another reason why we are on shoring critical supply chains here at home to shore up our own critical supply chain and, and boost our own manufacturing.

[Rohit Chopra]

Here and the Iraq.

[Sam Cedar]

So okay, wait a second, so are we back to the reason why we're doing this is not to raise money that so that we don't have taxes and not so that we can win. It's to onshore manufacturing. Shoring manufacturing. Interesting. Okay.

[Emma Vigland]

It's really is just pick one of those out of a hat and it will change on an hourly basis. What the purpose of.

[Rohit Chopra]

Also it's because of fentanyl not to.

[Sam Cedar]

Now Jeff Stein reports.

[Emma Vigland]

I guess like an hour after this press conference.

[Sam Cedar]

Was it an hour after the press conference or was it before the press conference?

[Emma Vigland]

Oh, I guess it does say 7:13 in the morning. So that's prior to.

[Sam Cedar]

Wait a second. But he wrote that. I'm confused by the timing on that because he wrote that Levitt and I.

[Emma Vigland]

Thought that there might be might be.

[Rohit Chopra]

Might be an internal issue with this.

[Emma Vigland]

System East Pacific time. This is, this is recent.

[Sam Cedar]

Okay, so right after that then Amazon spokesperson says this was never under consideration for the main Amazon website says Amazon hall has considered listing import price duties on certain products. Folks, if you use Amazon I would write them and request that you get to see the tariff prices. Yeah, I think this is a great idea for all just from a consumer protection standpoint.

[Rohit Chopra]

So I shop. I guess I'll out myself as a consumer. I bought some shorts from a company called Fabletics a month ago. In the receipt there's a little thing called the tariff surcharge for $5.25 that was on a $60 order. Recent changes to tariff policy.

[Sam Cedar]

Hold on, that's almost 10% just showing that I can do that.

[Rohit Chopra]

I can't fact check that. Recent changes tariff policy have increased the cost of importing goods. To ensure the quality of apparel you've come to trust from Fabletics we've implemented a small percentage of. Small percentage tariff surcharge. Thank you for understanding. My point is whether or not Amazon is caved today, as if this continues to roll on, it's going to show up in your receipts because it's going to be a massive problem.

[Emma Vigland]

How about things like toy prices could jump 50% following Trump's tariffs on China and Vietnam. That's going to have a real impact. And as we said yesterday, stuff the cheapest items at the dollar store that are manufactured in China, those are the stuff that's going to be hit the hardest in terms of percentage increases in the people that buy those things are usually lower income people. But I'm also confused as to why Trump and the administration is mad at this. Isn't he all into signing his work? He signed all those Covid checks.

[Sam Cedar]

Good point.

[Emma Vigland]

Much. Much to the chagrin of of Obama, which was silly because he was marketing himself. The Democrats should be doing that. But why doesn't he want to market this?

[Rohit Chopra]

Probably because it's a big giant theft by people like that. And if we were serious about onshoring that, we wouldn't be doing tax cuts. We would be reinvesting into manufacturing and that sort of productive capacity. We're not doing that.

[Sam Cedar]

We literally cut the people who were industrial planning in this country.

[Emma Vigland]

But Biden, Biden hired those people.

[Rohit Chopra]

Those people were woke.

[Emma Vigland]

And it's just so weird that he's basically saying also pick, pick an answer out of a hat on a daily basis that these are a way to potentially get rid of income taxes. Is the Republican budget talking about eliminating income taxes right now?

[Rohit Chopra]

They're actually not even constitutional. If you go back to the 1910s.

[Emma Vigland]

It'S so like disorganized from their agenda in the, I mean there's Medicaid cuts, they can agree on that. But they're nowhere close to the idea of eliminating income taxes. This is just like a right wing, almost gold bug adjacent conspiracy theory that he's trying to implement here.

[Sam Cedar]

It's, I mean, I can't help but think we should be selling, you know, Trump tariff stickers or something like that, people to put on their, on prices as they go around Liberation Day.

[Emma Vigland]

I feel liberated.

[Sam Cedar]

In a moment, we're going to be talking to Rohit Chopra, former head of the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau. Just coming a day after a major ruling by a three panel, or I should say a three judge panel out of the D.C. circuit finding that Russell votes now attempt to fire 90% of the consumer Financial Protection Bureau staff needs to be at the very least stayed for the moment because it doesn't seem to make any sense. We will talk to Rohit about that and then we'll be talking to Luke Savage, Canadian journalist columnist A. Jacobin, about the Canadian election results yesterday. First, a couple words from our sponsors. Here's something that might be worth a while for Americans to get better at learning a new language, just in case.

[Emma Vigland]

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[Sam Cedar]

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[Mark Carney]

Foreign.

[Sam Cedar]

We are back. Sam Cedar, Emma Vigland on the Majority Report. It is a pleasure to welcome to the program Rohit Chopra, former head of the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau, also former chair of the FTC and was one of the people fired by Donald Trump. And as opposed to Doge, as opposed to Russell Vogt. Welcome to the program.

[Mark Carney]

Thanks for having me, Sam.

[Sam Cedar]

Let's go. I mean, I feel like we have failed in our job. If folks don't have a good sense of what the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau has been doing over the past 10 plus years. But, but give us a sense of the type of work that the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau does or did and the the savings that are going to be implicated going forward for the American public.

[Mark Carney]

Well, it's not that long ago, Sam, that we had a massive financial crisis because regulators were essentially asleep at the switch while predators across the country targeted people with mortgages that set them up to fail. And the result wasn't just homeowners losing their homes, millions of them, but a massive economic crash that led to trillions of dollars of wealth disappearing across the country. And of course it hit the entire world. So what we needed to do is to make sure that there is some actual law enforcement policing Wall street and financial companies, not just on mortgages, but on credit cards, on auto loans, on student loans. Look, we know Americans owe more than well over a trillion on credit cards, well over a trillion on student loans, over a trillion on auto loans. And of course the mortgage market's even bigger. So what's been happening is since that agency was started, it has hauled in over $21 billion. Just returning that to consumers who were treated by companies like Wells Fargo and Navient, the big student loan company. And Sam, what we're seeing right now is all of those employees, all of those investigators, those inspectors, they've been benched. They have been told to stop all of their work. And that means every single person who's using those financial products, they are now more at risk of getting cheated. This is a bizarre defund the Wall Street Police gambit by Elon Musk and the so called Department of Government Efficiency which I pronounce as doggy, because it is not doing a damn thing to make our government more adaptable to an economic crisis or a recession or to have the skills to tackle the problems our economy is facing.

[Sam Cedar]

Right. And so, so the people understand like the, there in terms of the financial crisis as just as an example, the, the, the fundamental financial crisis part hit downstream from what started off as selling mortgages essentially that were, there was no chance for a lot of people to, to pay off that. Don't worry about this. I mean basically setting people up with, you know, most people have no financial literacy, frankly I can consider myself one of those people. And, and then it goes downstream, gets securitized is almost like a multiplying effect of, of how it provides a systemic risk. So that's where the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau works like where it faces obviously the consumers as opposed to the way this stuff gets traded beyond. But it also has a fundamental support for the mortgage market is my understanding too, insofar as coming up with things like what is the average mortgage rate, which you know, we all just assume because we just, we Google it or something. But that's put out by the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau and, and lenders use that as a way to know and for consumers to know that their mortgage conforms to something that would be underwritten by the government. So I mean, could you just go into some of those details just so we get A sense of what is going to be lost here. And then I want to get into the, the different phases of how they've attempted to destroy the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau requirements.

[Mark Carney]

It's such a good question because I think people forget we actually do have a whole set of laws on the books to protect homeowners when they take out a mortgage. And in many cases, the lenders themselves, they are freaking out about what is happening in our regulatory agencies because they rely on some of that key data to do and run their own business. So, for example, the laws on the books now forbid a mortgage lender from setting someone up to fail. So the CFPB put into place some guidelines. They were ordered by Congress to give lenders a way to be sure when that they underwrite a loan that it is not going to explode and that they are following the law. The CFPB publishes this data and it is heavily relied upon by the industry. This is, this is the problem with, with Doggy is that it is trying to make things not better, but break it. I don't know why someone would want to make our mortgage market less resilient, less competitive, but that's just one of the types of things that is happening. And, and Sam, let me just share. You know, I, you mentioned you feel you don't have financial literacy. You know, I think when we board a plane, we expect that it will take off and land safely. When we go into an office building, we go into that elevator expecting it to be safe because there are inspections, there's oversight. We make sure that we have laws and regulations so that people don't need to do so much research before actually boarding a plane or living their life. That's really what the CFPB also does to make sure that those financial products are not toxic. That there is some oversight to make sure that lenders are not lying, to make sure, for example, that your credit report is not filled with errors and inaccuracy. Because when that happens, you are not just susceptible. You may not be susceptible to, you know, bleeding or losing a limb, but your financial life can get ruined. And that can have a big effect on your life.

[Emma Vigland]

Can you give some examples of some of the ways that the CFPB has enforced or has basically returned billions of dollars in relief to American consumers? You referred to yourself earlier as basically the police looking at Wall street and some of these other firms. But people may not know that it's been over $20 billion that have been returned to American consumers. And some folks may have even gotten checks in the mail and not fully know that it was the CFPB that was behind it.

[Mark Carney]

Well, millions of people have gotten those refunds they, those checks. And here's just a couple, just a couple of examples. Just in the past few years, the cfpb, for example, found a number of banks like Wells Fargo, like Atlantic Union, Regions bank, engaged in all sorts of scams on overdraft fees. Some of you have experienced this. You charge something, you're over your bank account balance by 3,35 cents, they charge you $35. But what sometimes we found is that banks were ordering payments and reordering them sometimes so that they could maximize the number of fees they were charging you. Instead of one, you might have gotten hit with three or four of them. We've even looked at auto lenders. You know, many of us go to an auto dealer, we get an auto loan. And we found in several of those lenders that they were materially putting erroneous information on your credit reports, including that people had a repossession when they shouldn't have had that at all. So I really think the list of penalties and refunds, it's come from some of the biggest banks on, on Wall street, as well as so many of the other mortgage companies, remittance companies, auto loan servicers, student loan companies. And it has added up to tens of billions of dollars. And in many cases, we have really made sure the market is working on competing rather than cheating.

[Sam Cedar]

I just want to like, just marinate for a moment on that, on the overdraft thing, because it really is incredibly nefarious and, you know, clever. You know, if you got 10 bucks in your bank account and you go and you spend something, you charge two bucks and then you charge $9, what they'll do is they will wait for that two dollar charge and order it. So the $9 charge goes through and you get hit, you get dinged twice, essentially, or $11 and then the $2 charge, I should say, and you get dinged twice when you would have known already that you were hitting an overdraft if they had done it in order. And so when, when the CFPB is doing this, it also you have the first order of impact of like returning money and in punishing an entity that's doing it. But it also seems to be to be obscured how much it inhibits other players in that market from acting in the same way once they know there's somebody there to do that. Like who would, if the CFPB didn't exist with these credit, let's say the overdraft fees or even back when Wells Fargo back, I guess it was like in 2015 or 16, was shoving clients into accounts that they didn't start to charge them hidden fees. Who would have done that? In the absence of that? Would it just be a pockmark of agencies and there would be no like real federal authority that was looking over that?

[Caroline Levitt]

Yeah.

[Mark Carney]

What the law says right now is that the CFPB has really an exclusive authority to inspect big banks and a lot of these financial companies operating outside of the bank and credit union world. So I really don't know who is going to do it. I keep hearing that there's someone else doing it, but we've basically gone. Since I was fired on February 1, we haven't had a single enforcement action at all. I mean, basically maybe everybody stopped doing.

[Sam Cedar]

The, the bad things. Well, that were true.

[Mark Carney]

I wish that were true. If all of a sudden people found this new light that they are following all the laws. But you and I know that it is the deterrent effect of policing these markets that has stopped so much of it. And frankly, some of the rules that we have put into place have jump started a lot more competition. And when we started to go after crime, when it came to overdraft, we saw banks all over the country reform their practices, lower their fees. So that $20 billion is a vast, vast underestimate, a fraction of the benefits to American consumers. You know, Sam, Emma, I really think that people are just trying right now to get by. We are seeing the data that it could be. I'm not trying to predict one, but it could be that a recession is coming. I see for the first time in a while, average FICO score is going down. The number of people paying the minimum on their credit card is at a real high. Subprime auto loan distress is a real problem. So if there is a real slowdown in the economy and there is a recession, who is going to watch over those mortgage servicers who initiate foreclosures or those auto loan companies initiating car repossessions? And the list just goes on and on and on. And if there is nobody there, people will really pay the price. And just to be honest, no one voted for this. No one really seemed to campaign on this. In fact, we heard President Trump actually saying, let's cap credit card interest rates, let's hold these banks accountable. And it seems like we're just getting a complete 180 on this.

[Emma Vigland]

Right. I mean, and you mentioned just the increasing financial distress that people are experiencing. I saw the Federal Reserve data says that consumer debt is at an all time high. Right now. The average family owes over $100,000. And we have those indicators like what you're saying with the subprime auto payments and how people are more behind on that than they have been in 30 years. My concern is that we're also on.

[Sam Cedar]

The verge of collection agencies going after about 5 million Americans for student loans.

[Emma Vigland]

Right, Exactly. Just weeks away from that. And my concern is, is I'm seeing things like the, like Doordash just entered into a partnership with Klarna, one of those Buy Now, Pay later companies where, okay, if you pay those four payments in the installments every two weeks, you're not going to get charged interest. But somebody who needs to use installments on, on their food is likely not to have the money to pay next month for to be able to make that payment for the Buy Now Pay later. This is getting more and more integrated into our economy. It almost has this payday lender quality to it, but it's just like added on to your clothing order or your now your lunch order. What is your assessment of the promulgation of these kinds of companies, the Buy Now, Pay Laters, the Klarna's, the afterpays and their impact on this economy that's already so precarious as we just laid out.

[Luke Savage]

Yeah.

[Mark Carney]

So Emma, what we have been seeing, and it really accelerated during the pandemic, was tech companies getting more and more in to banking and lending. There was a big moment even in 2019 when Mark Zuckerberg and Facebook tried to launch their own currency, essentially a coin that could surveil you wherever you were making purchases. And they could combine that with their advertising technology and know everything and how to price and market to you. And by now Pay later really took off during the pandemic and now we see it at checkout on nearly every website and increasingly we see it in retail stores, brick and mortar stores where you can pay using Buy Now, Pay later and the cfpb. When I was director, we did a really major study on this and found that there is such a serious issue with people getting on a treadmill of debt. And I really worry that this, you know, new cfpb, whatever the heck they're doing every day, they're really taking their eye off the ball. You know, we would want these new options to be a competitive offering to help people solve problems. We don't want it to be just a way to induce people into borrowing for something that they can't really afford or that will lead them into financial ruin. So I think that we're going to see more of this X. You know, Elon Musk's ex is inked a deal to create something called X Money through Visa. We are seeing all sorts of big tech companies also entering Buy Now, Pay later and payments. And the CFPB is the agency that is supposed to make sure that you are not going to be scammed through this. I'll give you one example, Emma. Buy Now, Pay Later. We heard so many people complain that when they returned the item, there was sometimes issues about whether they were getting a refund on their Buy Now, Pay later loan. You know, when there was an error or a fraudulent charge. That's really, there are laws on the books to protect against that, but someone's got to enforce it. And with all of the staff on the sidelines essentially being paid to not work, this is, this is going to be a mess.

[Sam Cedar]

Let's, let's talk about that because there was a case today, I mean, so in, correct me if I'm wrong here in this understanding, DOGE comes in and it is a separate entity and maybe even ideology than Project 2025 under Russell Vogt. Russell Vogt is now the acting head of the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau. But this dynamic, it seems to me, is happening throughout the government. DOGE comes in, they fire all the probation, probationary workers, Probationary meaning either their new hires or they've been promoted because they've done such a good job. So they've hired the most successful people at these agencies. And, and the courts have mostly stopped that. And then Russell Vogt comes in and now deploys like, this is what happened at Consumer Financial Protection Bureau. They fired like 1400 of the 1500 staff, you know, give or take a few back in February, reinstated. And then Russell Vogt comes in and issues a rif, which is a reduction in force. This is what he's been working on for the past year or two when he was out of, when he was in Trump in exile, I guess, as it were. And his argument under this RIF order to the court is we can do what Congress has mandated us to do with 10% of the workforce that we had before literally firing 1400 people, leaving 100 people at this agency. I would imagine even if 1500, the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau could use another 1500 people to do all this work. And a three panel judge yesterday, one of whom was appointed by Trump, said this doesn't, this doesn't pass the smell test. Give me your sense of, like, just how outlandish this is. It's quite clear that Russell Vogt picked a number 14, 90%, and then sort of retconned or backfilled a justification on why a lot of these things don't need to be done.

[Mark Carney]

Well, look, it's obviously, in my view, illegal what they're doing, but right now, everything is on hold. And I think, of course, it's important to not just have investigators, inspectors, others doing this work, but it can't just be enough for them to be on the payroll. They've actually got to be doing stuff. They've got to be identifying wrongdoing and holding people accountable. So even if there are, even if they don't succeed in a scam to get rid of all the employees, I'm still worried that they're just not going to work to protect consumers fairly. Because here's actually, Sam, what is happening? Over the past two months, we have seen a series of cases that are in litigation in courtrooms across the country where the CFPB is just dismissing them, or in some cases, when they have to respond to a court, they just surrender. And that essentially is pardoning the companies involved in the alleged wrongdoing. And what's even more suspicious is that it's not that they're just doing this to cases that I brought, they're doing it to cases that even my predecessor, appointed under Trump's first term, brought. And this is raising all sorts of questions. Is there some sort of secret process at the White House or somewhere in government where you can talk to someone and do agree to something, maybe, and get your case totally pulled out of the courtroom or to get your investigation completely shut down. This is a serious problem. Even if we keep people at work, if they are being subjected to some secret process on who they can investigate, or if there is political favoritism that is just totally wrong and unethical.

[Sam Cedar]

And I would be. I mean, I think I might have an answer as to the question as to whether that's happening. I have a guess anyways. But is there, lastly, is there an opportunity for civil action, tort action, based upon the failure of the consumer financial? Because it may end up that, okay, you cannot fire 1400 people that you need to bring us evidence, and they'll come back and they'll say, we want to fire a thousand, and then that will be adjudicated and they want to fire 800 and so on. At one point, they'll find, you know, where they can make the case that this many people can be fired. But for these cases that have been dismissed, for cases where, you know, there's there is statutory and regulatory reasons to believe or violations that is there a tort action that can happen by consumers to come in and say the CFPB is not doing what they're supposed to be doing by design? I think from the Trump administration's perspective. But will there be an opportunity for that? Will there be like a round where we'll start to see tort actions on this?

[Mark Carney]

Well, I'm not sure. But here's what I think can go a little bit of the way to help. And that's our state attorneys general. I have been in communication with so many of them who know that they are ramping up now to investigate and go after companies that are cheating people in their financial life. In some cases, consumers can bring those cases themselves or group together to do it, but they are often blocked by fine print in the contract that says they can't bring a lawsuit even though the bank can sue them. So I think there it's an uphill battle. And Sam, maybe there will be places where consumers can vindicate their rights or where states will be able to do it. But so much of the harm are things that maybe people don't even know that is happening to them. You know, we have under we've uncovered situations where an algorithm or artificial intelligence is actually making decisions that are affecting consumers and they might not even know about it. You know, we went after and resolved a matter with TransUnion which would had completely messed up all of its tenant screening software. And it may have led to disqualifying people from an apartment because of data errors. That's the type of thing that a consumer may not even know is happening to them, but it's a big impact on them.

[Sam Cedar]

Rohit Chopra, thank you so much for your time today. Really appreciate it. And we'll obviously, you know, be tracking this and across other agencies as well. Thanks so much for your time.

[Mark Carney]

Thanks so much.

[Sam Cedar]

All right, folks, we're going to take a quick break. When we come back, we're going to be talking to Luke Savage, Canadian journalist, columnist at Jacobin, on the election that took place just north of us in what might be our 51st state. So we really got to bone up on this stuff. We'll be right back after this. We are back. Emma Viglin, Sam Cedar on the Majority Report. It's a pleasure to welcome back to the program LUKE Savage, Canadian JOURNALIST I don't know, I gotta say Canadian and columnist at Jacobin on The Canadian elections yesterday. And I gotta say, Luke, that when I was a young person, I traveled around Europe for a bit with a backpack. And the one thing I noticed at that time, I don't know what it's like today, but Canadians would always have a Canadian flag on their backpack just to make sure that people knew that they were not Americans. And it feels like now, like people would get that tattooed on their face as a way of making sure that people didn't. I mean, I. It's one thing to say, like, I don't want to be considered an American, and it's another to say, like, the, the level of, Of. Of anger towards America from Canada, completely justified. I have to say. It's off the charts. I think it's probably the most angry I think Canadians have ever been about anything.

[Luke Savage]

Yeah, I mean, you don't know how much that speaks to me. And thanks for having me on again. It's nice to see both of you. But yeah, as a, As a teenager in the early 2000s, anytime I was visiting my family in Great Britain, you know, I would, I would, I would always try to brandish my Canadian ness as, as loudly as I could. And I still find to this day I get mistaken for an American because of my accent, which, you know, much love to all of you down south, but these days especially, you know, it's no explanation necessary. Yeah, but no, you're right. People are. Angry is one word. I think scared is probably another emotion I'd bring in here. I think that, you know, this might be hard for Americans to grapple with just because of your country is so big and it's so powerful, etc. But Canada is a nation of 40 million people spread out pretty thinly over a vast territory. And, you know, having. Having the President of the United States repeatedly threaten annexation has, I would say, carries a lot of weight in the Canadian psyche. And I think everything we're going to say about the election results, you know, going forward has to. Has to be seen in that light.

[Sam Cedar]

Well, yeah, so tell us. Why don't you. I mean, give us a. We got this video. We'll play it in a second. But should we do it now? When? When?

[Rohit Chopra]

So, Luke, you were on Left Reckoning telling us about this Apple video with Pierre Poliev. I thought maybe that would be a way to enter into this topic.

[Sam Cedar]

Yeah. Well, how about this? Before we get to the Apple video, just Seth, who was running in this past election, what did it look like six months ago? And then we could talk about the results and then we'll look at the Apple video. Sure.

[Luke Savage]

So, I mean, the, the major players in the election, for those unfamiliar with Canadian politics, are the Liberal Party, which been in power since 2015, mostly under the leadership of Justin Trudeau, who was ousted unceremoniously. I came on this show to talk about that when it happened back in December. December. Since the Liberals replaced Trudeau, or actually even before they replaced him, they began to see a reversal of their fortunes in the polls, not only because of new leadership, but because, you know, directly because of the threats from Donald Trump. The Conservatives, on the other hand, led by Pierre Poliev, who is probably the most right wing leader of the modern Conservative Party, they'd been leading in the double digits for two, two and a half years up to, I mean, eight, eight weeks ago probably. So this has been a stunning reversal of fortunes. The ndp, which is the traditional, mostly, most often the third party in Canadian politics, Social Democratic Party, the voice of the electoral left in Canada, it had its worst result ever and it saw about two thirds of its kind of traditional vote go just in the last eight weeks as well, mostly to the Liberals. And then in Quebec, there's also the bloc which only runs runs in Quebec, and they, they won about a third of the seats there. Those there are still a few being counted.

[Sam Cedar]

The. Without getting into like, you know, sort of like the specifics of Trudeau per se. Most governments around the world that were in leadership during COVID have, have been, or, you know, essentially en route to getting voted out, and most of them have been voted out by now. How much of, like, how much of like the, all the elements of COVID and the post Covid stuff implicated the.

[Emma Vigland]

Trucker convoy even in like Canada. That was a huge story.

[Luke Savage]

Sorry.

[Sam Cedar]

No, I mean that's, that's a perfect example of it. I mean, it mirrors a lot of what happened here in this country and around the, around the world. This is not to, you know, this is not an apologetic for, for Trudeau, for these other administrations that were voted out. But give me your sense of like what that was and why the NDP didn't necessarily, or how that dynamic. Because it feels like this was such an anti Conservative vote that people just said, I'm going with the winner, like I'm voting against somebody as opposed to, for somebody.

[Luke Savage]

Yeah, I mean, Emma's right to bring in like you're right, Emma, to bring in the trucker convoy. I mean, I think that was in a sense the beginning of the end of Trudeau ism. You know, it kind of floundered really since 2019. Trudeau got a big victory in 2015 and he never got a majority after that. In two elections he became much less popular. But the trucker convoy was a harbinger of a radicalization on the right which the Tories under Pierre Polievra successfully co opted and absorbed. At the same time the Liberals did a very poor job I think, managing the cost of living crisis. You know, in many cases, I mean there were big files like housing, where initially they were just trying to abnegate responsibility. They were saying oh this is for the provinces to deal with. You know, it's not the federal government's job to worry about housing. That kind of thing didn't go over very well. And so really this has been looking like it was going to be a cost of living election for two and a half years because of Donald Trump. It became something else that hurt the Conservatives in that they didn't get the big victory they were hoping for. But they also have and this should not be lost. Pierre Polievra has lost his own seat in Carlton in suburban Ottawa. These held for 20 years. Nonetheless, this is the strongest vote share, the best vote for the Conservative Party, I mean for any Conservative party of Canada in Canada since 1988. But the modern Conservative Party which has only existed for 2003, this is its best result ever. It's better than what they got in 2011 when they won a majority in the House of Commons. So this is a very good result for the Tories as well for the ndp. I mean, you know, the NDP I think lost perhaps a little bit of the, if I can put it this way, anti system energy that the Conservatives managed to co op, although that shouldn't be exaggerated. What really seems to have happened is that a large chunk, a non negligible chunk of the NDP's traditional base, which even in a bad election the NDP and its predecessor, the CCF tended to get, you know, 15% say, and we're looking at just over 6% here. So this is a historically low result. I do think the reason for that though the reasons are quite kind of contingent to this particular moment. There has never been a political moment or a stretch of a few months even in Canada like this. And because the Liberals don't have a majority, it seems at this point does doesn't seem like they're going to get one. I think a lot of people who perhaps voted for Mark Carney kind of did so hoping politics would go away. Politics are not going away. We are not going to have to wait four years until another federal election. Politics are going to be very much still with us for, for worse, but hopefully for better as well.

[Sam Cedar]

Expand on what you're saying so that people understand this dynamic. I mean, was there a sense that, that NDP voters stayed home or did they basically just say, we're going to more or less form a popular frontier and we should say. I don't, I don't know if it's been explicit, but Polly really embraced Trump is Trumpism. I mean, he hugged him tight, although, especially prior to.

[Emma Vigland]

I mean. But let's put up this chart one more time just to show like what Trump did here. I mean, the Al Jazeera has this graphic, but it says, Trudeau resigns, Carney elected Liberal leader. But 1-20-25. You see that? That is a over 20 point polling lead for the Conservatives and the Liberals as well as. So the Conservatives declined, as did the ndp. And so it's hard to say, like, was it Trudeau or was it Trump's threats of annexation and these tariffs? But it doesn't necessarily. I mean, it can be both. But that's like as dramatic of a turnaround in less than four months as you'll ever see.

[Rohit Chopra]

Can I just say, Freeland resigning is kind of like, should probably be in that point where the Liberal Party goes down the first time. Is that right, Luke, Am I right about that?

[Luke Savage]

Yeah, let me say something on that, actually, because it's true. Christia Freeland resigning. I mean, many people have said this, including Liberal Party insiders have said this, that Christia Freeland resigning was the catalyzing event in Trudeau's departure. But her relevance to this story evaporated very quickly. She stood for the leadership and in theory should have been very well positioned to win. And not only did she lose to Carney, a man who had never held elected office, she lost every single riding in the country to Carney in the vote, including her own riding she's represented since 2015. She got something like 115 votes in a riding of, you know, there must be thousands of Liberal members. So she is both a very influential actor in the story and then someone whose relevance kind of surprisingly disappeared very, very quickly. But, Sam, just to return to what you were saying, yeah, this was very much a case, I think this was not a case of the NDP base staying home. This was a case of, you know, the NDP really being squeezed in by lots of NDP voters deciding to lend their votes, if I can put it that way, to the Liberals in this case. The NDP always to some extent has faced or almost always faces this kind of strategic dilemma where the Liberals say you need to vote for us strategically and you can't afford to vote ndp. But what we're seeing with these results is the Liberals got a much bigger return for that argument this time, if I can put it that way. And you know, just finally, quickly, I mean, Mark Carney ran a very center right kind of campaign, more so than I was expecting, but I think he is, you know, there are some parallels between him and someone like Keir Starmer, but I do think he's a savvier operator than that. He has meticulously built a public image over the last 10 years as this very socially conscientious figure, a kind of center left banker. And that's not how he campaigned. But I think he did things to make himself more acceptable to typical NDP voters, even though he was, practically speaking, moving away from even the sort of modestly center left ish parts of Trudeauism.

[Emma Vigland]

How does that look then? If you're appealing to NDP voters by running to the right, you could only.

[Luke Savage]

Do it in this one election. It's kind of the one weird trick that Donald Trump allows you to do. Which is why, you know, speaking as both, I guess, a political commentator and also as an ideologically committed person who's had some involvement with the ndp, I mean, I'm not worried, despite how poor these results are, that this is some kind of extinction level event for the ndp. There's a lot of rebuilding work that's going to have to happen. But I also think, you know, if Mark Carney had entered national politics at any other point in history, I, I don't think he would have fared quite so well. He does have certain political skills. But I, you know, I think, you know, imagine another context in this country or in any country since maybe 2008 where someone could campaign on the argument, I'm a banker and I'm here to save you. I used to work at Goldman Sachs and I'm here to save you. And you know, people. And that energized people, you know, that that's, you know, that's not, that's not been an appealing pitch for the last 20 years and I doubt it's going to be an appealing pitch in the next 20 years.

[Sam Cedar]

I feel like that might go over in Switzerland and that's about it. But, yeah, but just to be clear, so that people understand, you can't directly vote for the prime minister, so there's no like split ticketing you've got to vote for the party that from whom the prime minister is, has, has been nominated as their candidate. So there was no, there was no split ticket type of situation opportunity here where I'll vote for the, the Liberal prime minister and then vote for my local member of parliament. And so what do you anticipate? You know, well, let's look at this, let's look at this poll. Was this an ad or.

[Rohit Chopra]

Well, let's watch it and then Luke can sort of give us the history.

[Luke Savage]

Of it here.

[Sam Cedar]

On the topic.

[Rohit Chopra]

I mean, in terms of your sort of strategy currently, you're obviously taking the populist pathway.

[Sam Cedar]

What does that mean?

[Rohit Chopra]

Well, appealing to people's more emotional levels, I would guess. I mean, certainly you, certainly, certainly you tap, tap very strong ideological language quite frequently.

[Sam Cedar]

Like what?

[Rohit Chopra]

Left wing, you know, this and that, Right wing, you know, I mean it's that, that type of ideological stuff.

[Sam Cedar]

I never really talk about left or.

[Rohit Chopra]

Right anyways a lot.

[Sam Cedar]

I don't really believe in that. Okay.

[Rohit Chopra]

A lot of people would, would say that you're simply taking a page out.

[Sam Cedar]

Of the Donald Trump. Like which people would say that?

[Rohit Chopra]

Well, I'm sure a great many Canadians.

[Sam Cedar]

But like who? I don't know who. But you're the one who asked the question, so you must know somebody.

[Rohit Chopra]

You get the point.

[Emma Vigland]

Wow, he went to town on that apple you like eating on camera is a real. It's a, that's. That that has very little low returns. I don't know. I mean, that's a risky bet. That's a risky bet.

[Luke Savage]

I wish I remembered the original context for that video. But it actually is in its own weird way, a nice little introduction, a canned introduction. Introduction to Poliev's style. I mean, what you see him doing there where he's kind of doing this like he's a character in a Socratic dialogue where he's like, ah, but who is saying this? Like, please explain yourself. He's used that technique with reporters many times and you know, it can often be quite disarming. They're not used to this kind of like somewhat more confrontational style. I do think there are parts of Polievora's, you know, style and approach that do mirror Donald Trump. But I actually think a better US Analog is someone like Ron Desantis. Frankly, Polyvra is. He is a creature of the conservative movement. He's been in Parliament since his early 20s, you know, since the early 2000s. Before that he interned at various right wing think tanks. That sort of Thing he's part of. You know, he's a guy who's read too much Milton Friedman. He's a guy who's probably read too much Hayek. He's that sort of conservative. He's a guy who, when he was running for the leadership, did a campaign event where he bought like shawarma with Bitcoin or something on camera. So he's a, he's, he's a guy who kind of like Desantis is constantly feeding the online parts of the right red meat and kind of doing that as a, as a political style. He honestly, the parts he's borrowing from Trumpism, I think there are parts of Trump 2016, perhaps you could say he's borrowing from. He did talk about the cost of living crisis. He talked about lines at food banks, that kind of thing, which was one of the sort of quiet innovations not to compliment Donald Trump, but of Trump 2016, here was a right wing, a very right wing guy who was at least acknowledging social pain at a time when the Democratic Party was saying America never stopped being great, etc. So Polyavara is very weird. I mean, that and so much else. You know, if he appears on video, it kind of looks like a, you know, it's like Tim and Eric or something. It's like almost satirical. But his videos, they, he does crazy numbers on YouTube. And so if you're not the kind of person for whom you find this weird or this makes your skin crawl, Polyav, you know, he's, he's got, he's got a certain appeal, clearly. I mean, over 40% of the electorate cast a vote for his party last night.

[Sam Cedar]

So I really resent the stolen, the apple, stolen valor that's going on there where he's like trying to get credit for eating an apple. That, that's your thing that, that we.

[Rohit Chopra]

Have to recut that video that, that.

[Sam Cedar]

I take personally on some level. But let's, let's play this clip of Carney's, I guess, election night victories, as I've been warned, and, and specifically, you know, I mean, this is, I mean, I guess it's harder for us to understand in the context of America as like, you know, the classic we sneeze and other people catch cold type of situation. But it's pretty clear what he felt like, you know, was part of his mandate. And so I just want to talk about, like, this aspect going forward. And also, if it is the case that the liberals don't win the majority in the parliament, what does that mean in terms of ndp and the other smaller left wing parties.

[G]

As I've been warning for months, America wants our land, our resources, our water, our country. Never. But these are not, these are not idle threats. President Trump is trying to break us so that America can own us. That will never, that will never, ever happen. We are once again at one of those hinge moments of history. Our old relationship with the United States, a relationship based on steadily increasing integration, is over. The system of open global trade anchored by the United States, a system that Canada has relied on since the Second World War, assists that, while not perfect, has helped deliver prosperity for a country for decades, is over. These are tragedies, but it's also our new reality. We are over. We are over the shock of the American betrayal, but we should never forget the lessons. We have to look out for ourselves. And above all, we have to take care of each other.

[Sam Cedar]

I have to say, like the juxtaposition between this guy's incredibly mundane presentation and the level of drama of what he's saying, I mean, you know, it is, it's pretty stunning.

[Emma Vigland]

That is a, it's strong language. And we almost, I think, in the United States are yearning for it from our liberal, like, side of things, where it's more just like, okay, let's recognize that we are at a hinge point and there's no going back and we have to move forward with strength.

[Sam Cedar]

But I mean, it sounds, I mean, like he believes he has a mandate to react to the way that the United States is by basically creating, you know, what could be a new century long dynamic that to replace the past century, essentially. It's. Is that the general consensus?

[Luke Savage]

I mean, I think rhetorically that is the general consensus. There's a lot to be worked out at the level of execution because, I mean, what Carney is saying there about the undoing of the long standing trade consensus is true, right? In fact, it's even truer than really comes across in that speech. I mean, the Canadian economy is not just closely integrated with the United States, with that of the United States. It's an economy that is very rich in natural resources, but has for decades really exported them without building the manufacturing capacity, the refining capacity in the west for oil here. Like, it's, Canada's economy is a, you know, a raw, raw extraction economy in many places. And so, you know, what's, what's going on with the undoing of the trade consensus is going to require a comprehensive rethinking of, you know, Canada's, Canada's entire economy really. I think, you know, If I object to anything in what Carney says, I think that there has been, on his part and on the part of others, a bit too much idealization of free trade as we've known it since the 1980s. That was something the left in Canada historically was very critical of, and I think for good reason. And I think the. I think what we've seen from Donald Trump recently kind of vindicates that. That skepticism. But it seems like it's almost a moot point now because the economy's gonna have to be rethought. And I, unfortunately, don't have a lot of faith that the Liberals will embrace kind of activist government and interventionism of the kind that will be required to, you know, protect jobs and, you know, and overhaul, you know, Canadian manufacturing and so on. But, you know, I guess we'll see. The Liberals, I don't think, are going to have a majority in the.

[Sam Cedar]

Oh, okay. I was going to say is that, you know, like, how contingent is that on. Based upon the Liberals not having the majority and needing NDP votes to get across the finish line?

[Luke Savage]

Yeah, yeah, it's exactly what I was going to speak to. I mean, so, you know, the ndp, having lost, I don't know, two thirds of its caucus, actually still has half a finger over the button. You know, the Liberals, you need 172seats for a parliamentary majority. It looks like the Liberals are going to have 168 or thereabouts, and the NDP are going to have seven. So the Liberals can either rely on the NDP's seven MPs or those of the bloc Ibequa. And, you know, so, I mean, this is a very interesting dynamic. I mean, I would add, just furthermore, since we've talked so much about Pierre Polievra, it's unclear what's going to happen with the Conservative Party. He clearly was indicating in his speech last night that he's not going anywhere, but he doesn't have a seat in the House of Commons. You cannot be leader of the opposition according to parliamentary rules if you don't have a seat in the House of Commons, which means that Polyavora is going to, I guess, have to appoint some kind of interim parliamentary leader and then presumably talk a Conservative who just won their seat into dropping out, resigning from their seat so that he can run in a safe seat, perhaps in Alberta or Saskatchewan. But this is all very strange. There's never been an election like this where the leader of the opposition lost their seat but increased the vote and there was a minority Parliament, as I said, off the top, you know, politics.

[Sam Cedar]

Isn'T going anywhere and there's no cable TV gig he can get or anything like that, I guess. No. Luke Savage, thanks so much for, for catching us up on this. I guess we'll have a better sense in the coming days exactly where those numbers land in the parliament and then, you know, it was nice knowing you guys.

[Emma Vigland]

Yeah.

[Sam Cedar]

I guess you won't be taking too many visits out to the States once they start building the wall. The question is, who's going to be building the wall first?

[Luke Savage]

Yeah. You know, I've thought about, you know, visiting my dad who lives in Vermont. And I think, you know, if, if I swear to check my phone and find out I'd been on this show, I might have some problems. So I think I'm going to, you know, put any visits on pause for the next couple years.

[Sam Cedar]

We'll put you on the Majority Report burner program where we send you a burner for just those reasons. But thanks so much for coming on and apologies if this, if this does cause a problem for you at the border.

[Luke Savage]

Cheers. Nice talking to you both.

[Emma Vigland]

Thanks, Luke.

[Sam Cedar]

All right, folks, that does it for the first half of the program today. Ryan from Florida says, oh, Sam with the apples again. Side note, I started eating New York State snapdragons thanks to Sam and have never looked back. Yes, snapdragon is one of the best apples out there. I mean, I'm not gonna get into the whole west coast apple thing.

[Rohit Chopra]

It's really sort of a joke. Could get violent.

[Sam Cedar]

Yeah. Folks, reminder, it's your support that makes this show possible. You can become a member at Join the join the Majority Report.com when you do, you not only get the free show free of commercials, but you allow this show to survive and thrive and you get the fun app. Also shout out to Jose. I met him on Flatbush today and he want to shout out, shout out, Jose, there you go, man. Also just coffee.co op, fair trade coffee, hot chocolate. Use the coupon code. Majority get 10% off. You can also get the Majority report blend. Check it out. Matt Left reckoning tonight, 7:00 Eastern Time.

[Rohit Chopra]

Vincent Bevins on talking about his great piece on the movement of some terra, the landless workers movement in Brazil. A really great interview. Check that out.

[Sam Cedar]

7:00 Eastern Time, quick break, fun half, three months from now, six months from now, nine months from now. And I don't think it's going to be the same as it looks like in six months from now. And I don't know if it's necessarily going to be better six months from now than it is three months from now, but I think around 18 months out, we're gonna look back and go like, wow. What? What is that going on? It's nuts. Wait a second.

[Mark Carney]

Hold on.

[Sam Cedar]

Hold on for a second. Emma, welcome to the program. What is up, everyone? Fun. No. McKee, you did it. Fun half.

[Emma Vigland]

Let's go, Brandon.

[Luke Savage]

Let's go, Brandon.

[Sam Cedar]

Fun hat. Bradley, you want to say hello?

[Rohit Chopra]

Sorry to disappoint everyone. I'm just a random guy.

[Luke Savage]

It's all the boys today.

[Caroline Levitt]

Fundamentally false.

[Emma Vigland]

No. I'm sorry.

[Sam Cedar]

Women. Stop talking for a second and let me finish.

[Caroline Levitt]

Where is this coming from?

[Emma Vigland]

Dude?

[Mark Carney]

But.

[Sam Cedar]

Dude, you want to smoke this? 7A. Yes. Hi. Me Is me. Yes. Is this me? Is it me? It is you. Is this me? Hello? Is this me? I think it is you. Who is you? Go. Sound. Every single freaking day. What's on your mind?

[Mark Carney]

We can discuss free markets and we can discuss capitalism.

[Sam Cedar]

I'm gonna go Skyline Libertarians. They're so stupid. Though common sense says of course.

[Emma Vigland]

Gobbledygook.

[Sam Cedar]

We nailed him.

[Emma Vigland]

So what's 79 plus 21?

[Sam Cedar]

Challenge. Man, I'm positively quivering. I believe 96. I want to say 8, 5, 7, 2, 1, 0, 35, 500. One, one half.

[Rohit Chopra]

3, 8, 9, 11.

[Luke Savage]

For instance.

[Emma Vigland]

$3,400. 1900.

[Sam Cedar]

5, 4, $3 trillion.

[Emma Vigland]

Sold.

[Sam Cedar]

It's a zero sum game. Actually.

[Emma Vigland]

You're making me think less.

[Sam Cedar]

But let me say this poop.

[Mark Carney]

You call it satire. Sam goes satire.

[Luke Savage]

On top of it all.

[Sam Cedar]

My favorite part about you is just like every day, all day, like, everything you do. Without a doubt. Hey, buddy. We see you. All right, folks, folks, folks, folks.

[Emma Vigland]

It's just the week being weeded out. Obviously.

[Sam Cedar]

Yeah. Sun's out, guns out. I. I don't know.

[Emma Vigland]

But you should know, people just don't.

[Rohit Chopra]

Like to entertain ideas anymore.

[Sam Cedar]

I have a question. Who cares?

[Rohit Chopra]

Our chat is enabled, folks.

[Sam Cedar]

I love it.

[Emma Vigland]

I do love that.

[Sam Cedar]

Gotta jump. Gotta be quick. I gotta jump. I'm losing it, bro. 2:00, we're already late and the guy's being a dick. So screw him. Sent to a gulag.

[Emma Vigland]

Outrageous.

[Sam Cedar]

Like, what is wrong with you? Love you.

[Mark Carney]

Bye.

[Sam Cedar]

Love you.

[Luke Savage]

Bye.