2488 - Mohsen Mahdawi Freed; Trump To Steal Debtor Wages? w/ Shezza Abboushi Dallal, Astra Taylor

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Majority Report with Sam Seder
Episode 2488 - "Mohsen Mahdawi Freed; Trump To Steal Debtor Wages?"
Release Date: May 1, 2025

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Introduction and Political Update

Hosted by Emma Vigeland in Sam Seder's absence, the episode begins with a rundown of current political events:

• Labor Solidarity: Celebrated May Day with a call for labor solidarity.
• Senate GOP Tariff Reversal Effort: Senate Republicans narrowly failed to reverse Trump's tariffs with a 49-49 vote, partly due to Democrat Sheldon Whitehouse's absence in South Korea.
• Medicaid Under Attack: Republicans target Medicaid in budget negotiations, contradicting Trump's claims of protecting it.
• AOC and Oversight Committee: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez steps up to lead the Oversight Committee.
• Immigration and International Issues: Discussed Israel's blockade of Gaza, Rwanda's offer to take Trump’s kidnapped immigrants, and the U.S.'s reported deal with Ukraine over mineral extraction amidst peace talks with Russia.
• Venezuelan Detention Crisis: Highlighted the plight of Venezuelan men in Texas immigration jail resorting to desperate acts to draw attention.
• Policy Changes: Trump discontinuing a mortgage rescue program for veterans and the NIH ending a long-standing program to prevent infant SIDS.

Notable Political Quote:

Matt Binder (05:25): "Republicans have no intention of cutting Social Security through the legislative process. They're doing it illegally on the back end."

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Segment 1: Mohsen Mahdawi's Release

Guest: Shaza Aboushi Dalal, Staff Attorney with Clear

Summary:

Shaza Aboushi Dalal discusses the recent release of Mohsen Mahdawi, a Palestinian Columbia University student and activist, from ICE custody.

• Background: Mohsen, a legal permanent resident from the West Bank, has been active in advocating for Palestinian rights, leading to targeted harassment and threats from organizations like Bitar USA and Canary Mission.
• Abduction Attempt: In March, during a naturalization interview in Vermont, DHS agents attempted to abduct Mohsen to Louisiana. Legal intervention prevented his removal.
• Release on Bail: After ten days in detention, a federal judge recognized the attempted retaliation against Mohsen's First Amendment activities and released him on bail.
• Legal and Social Implications: The judge drew parallels to historical abuses like the Red Scare and emphasized the importance of protecting free speech against governmental repression.

Notable Quotes:

Mohsen Mahdawi (28:49): "This is a testament to the power of unconstitutional targeting we're witnessing from the Trump administration."

Shaza Aboushi Dalal (36:09): "He evoked the Red Scare, the Palmer raids of 1919 and 1920, and the McCarthy era to highlight the resurgence of repression."

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Segment 2: Student Debt Crisis and Republican Policies

Guest: Astra Taylor, Documentary Filmmaker, Writer, Co-Founder of the Debt Collective

Summary:

Astra Taylor delves into the Republican agenda targeting education and reviving student debt pressures.

• Education Cuts: Republicans aim to dismantle public higher education by reducing funding and support for federal student loans, thereby pushing students into the private lending market.
• Impact on Borrowers: Proposals include capping the availability of subsidized federal loans, increasing loan costs, and rolling back income-driven repayment plans. This will likely lead to rising default rates and increased wage garnishments.
• Economic and Social Consequences: The shift favors Wall Street and for-profit education sectors, exacerbates inequality, and limits access to education for the working and middle classes.
• Historical Context: Astra draws parallels to past administration tactics, emphasizing that this is a continuation of efforts to control and punish dissent through financial burdens.

Notable Quotes:

Astra Taylor (47:38): "This is not about economics or education. It's a right-wing agenda of disempowering ordinary people and increasing inequality."

Astra Taylor (50:17): "Debt is about power. None of this is about preventing people from going into public service; it's about economic well-being and control."

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Conclusion and Calls to Action

The episode wraps up with a discussion on the broader implications of the policies discussed:

• Debt Jubilee Advocacy: Highlighted the importance of broad-based debt forgiveness to counteract the punitive measures being introduced.
• Public Awareness and Mobilization: Emphasized the need for listeners to engage politically, support movements like the Debt Collective, and advocate for free public education and robust social safety nets.

Notable Quotes:

Emma Vigeland (54:45): "Debt jubilee is something that is enormously important and has many historical examples."

Astra Taylor (57:51): "Let's remake the higher education system and fight for something better instead of these piecemeal reforms."

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Key Takeaways

1. Government Overreach in Immigration: Mohsen Mahdawi's case exemplifies the Trump administration's tactics to silence dissent through immigration controls.
2. Attack on Public Education: Republican budget proposals threaten to undermine public higher education and exacerbate the student debt crisis, favoring private lenders and increasing financial burdens on individuals.
3. Historical Parallels: The episode draws connections between current policies and historical instances of government oppression, underscoring the cyclical nature of such tactics.
4. Call for Collective Action: Both guests advocate for systemic changes, including debt forgiveness and the restoration of publicly funded education, urging listeners to participate in movements resisting these policies.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Matt Binder (05:25): "Republicans have no intention of cutting Social Security through the legislative process. They're doing it illegally on the back end."

• Mohsen Mahdawi (28:49): "This is a testament to the power of unconstitutional targeting we're witnessing from the Trump administration."

• Shaza Aboushi Dalal (36:09): "He evoked the Red Scare, the Palmer raids of 1919 and 1920, and the McCarthy era to highlight the resurgence of repression."

• Astra Taylor (47:38): "This is not about economics or education. It's a right-wing agenda of disempowering ordinary people and increasing inequality."

• Astra Taylor (50:17): "Debt is about power. None of this is about preventing people from going into public service; it's about economic well-being and control."

• Emma Vigeland (54:45): "Debt jubilee is something that is enormously important and has many historical examples."

• Astra Taylor (57:51): "Let's remake the higher education system and fight for something better instead of these piecemeal reforms."

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Final Thoughts

Episode 2488 of The Majority Report underscores significant challenges in the realms of immigration and education policy under the Trump administration. Through in-depth discussions with legal and educational experts, the episode highlights the systemic efforts to suppress dissent and limit access to public goods like education. Listeners are encouraged to stay informed, support relevant movements, and advocate for policies that promote equity and justice.

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For more detailed discussions and to support the show, visit Majority.FM.

Transcript

[Emma Vigeland]

You are listening to a free version of the Majority Report. Support this [e-mail] and get an extra hour of content daily. It is Thursday, May 1, 2025. My name is Emma Vigelund in for Sam Cedar and this is the five time award winning Majority Report. We are broadcasting live steps from the industrially ravaged Gowanus Canal in the heartland of America, downtown Brooklyn, usa. On the program today, Sheza Abusi Dalal, staff attorney with clear, will be with us to talk about her client Mohsan Madawi, who was just free from ICE custody. And later in the show, Astra Taylor of the Debt Collective joins us to discuss Trump restarting student debt payments and potentially garnishing wages. Also on the program, happy May Day folks. Labor solidarity to all. Senate Republicans narrowly kill efforts to reverse Trump's tariffs 49 to 49 partly because Democrat Sheldon Whitehouse was in South Korea. Can we have some strategy please here? As shelves go empty, empty. Trump kills a tariff exception exemption on Chinese goods for under that are under $800 because of like fentanyl or something. Republicans put Medicaid in their crosshairs in budget negotiations as Trump claims they're not going to touch it. And by claims I mean lies. AOC officially throws her hat back in the ring to lead the Oversight committee, which is good. Democrat Sri Thanadar. His attempt to impeach Trump falls flat as it becomes clear that he didn't really think it through, didn't coordinate with Speaker Jeffries, and coincidentally announced it on the same day that a justice Democrat announced that he was primary ing him.

[Matt Binder]

Thunderdome's odd, right?

[Emma Vigeland]

It's just such weird timing. This guy's also a total wacko. We'll probably talk about that race at another time. Israel's blockade of all food, water and medical supplies into Gaza enters its 60th day. Rwanda indicates it would be happy to take Trump's kidnapped immigrants for a price. The US Reportedly reaches a deal to extract Ukraine's minerals in the midst of supposed peace talks with Russia, which makes me think that perhaps a negotiated peace is a little less likely because Trump gotten something out of Ukraine. Dozens of Venezuelan men held in Texas immigration jail under threat of being sent to seekot spell out SOS with their bodies in the prison yard. Trump kills a new mortgage rescue program for veterans that has saved 20,000 vets from foreclosure. And lastly, the NIH ends its 30 year participation in the program that helped prevent babies from dying in their sleep. All this and more on today's Majority Reports. Welcome to the show, everybody. It is an Emma Jordy Report Thursday. Good to be with you. Hello, Matt. Hello, Russ. Hello, audience. Excited to get this show on the road here. Last night, Donald Trump did a News Nation town hall where he didn't even bother to zoom in. He's just like probably on the toilet calling into this town hall and it's co moderated or the panelists are Chris Cuomo with News Nation. Bill O'Reilly, I was going to ask. Yeah, that's Bill O'Reilly.

[Matt Binder]

Okay.

[Emma Vigeland]

Right. Looking, you know, very exfoliated with his loofah, which we all know that he's a huge fan of loofahs. And Steve, Stephen A. Smith, who, you know, what is there to say? He makes me laugh, but that's about it.

[Matt Binder]

I apologize to the world for saying he should just do sports talk or politics after a couple years ago he said Jokic isn't good in the post. So I apologize for cursing that into existence.

[Emma Vigeland]

You made this happen. You made this happen, Russ. You worked with Chris Cuomo.

[Russell]

Yes, I did. Shout out to my boy.

[Emma Vigeland]

Do you think he was thrilled with the fact that this was like Trump couldn't even be bothered to show his face, that he's just calling in via phone?

[Russell]

It's a long ride from CNN glory hosting town halls with presidents where they're actually in the studio to the phoner from the bathroom.

[Matt Binder]

You're not at CNN anymore.

[Russell]

But he looks, I think his face reflects, put it up right here, disappointment.

[Emma Vigeland]

You could just see. Yep. This is, this is where he's at now. This is his fall from grace.

[Russell]

Don't worry, he's got maybe a little side gig this year helping his, his bro out. Yeah, well, aerial campaign.

[Emma Vigeland]

Yeah.

[Matt Binder]

Nice to work for a place that doesn't care about conflicts like that.

[Emma Vigeland]

Yeah. Must be nicer. I guess that's, that's where he upgraded. But putting that aside for a second, what they're talking about here is the current House Republican budget negotiations and just the budget negotiations in general. Basically what's been happening is that because Trump wants this one big beautiful bill and wants to extend the tax cuts from 2017 that disproportionately favored the rich, the Republicans have to come up with $880 billion in cuts that were directed to the Energy and Commerce Committee. The Energy and Commerce Committee oversees Medicaid. And that is the biggest area tranche, if you will, where the Trump administration can cut from to meet their quotas for what they need to justify continuing to cut taxes on the rich and they are going after specifically Medicaid. Medicaid expansion under the Affordable Care Act, 20 million more people were added to the Medicaid rolls than were on Medicaid previously. Overall Medicaid. Now when you pair it with chip, which is the version for low income children, Medicaid covers nearly 80 million people in this country and it's disproportionately folks of lower income. That's how you qualify is I think it's like 138% above the poverty line. You can qualify for Medicaid, but the poverty line is just already the determination for if you're impoverished is way too low based on how the federal government makes that calculation. So this is like one of the only programs that's holding together our social safety net with, with duct tape essentially. And this is what the Republicans are going to go after and how they're going to do it is really important to understand because under the Affordable Care Act, Medicaid expansion, the federal government incentivize states to, to expand Medicaid by using a 90% federal matching rate, meaning the government, the federal government picked up 90% of the tab and red states were very reluctant to take this free money basically to give health care to their citizenry. But eventually we got to a point where 40 states have expanded Medicaid and what they're trying to do is cut the federal matching rate to make it so that they go to under the expansion, the traditional Medicaid matching rate, not the expansion but the traditional Medicaid matching rate. And that ranges in between 50% to, it can go up to I think 83%. And that's based on the federal poverty rate in those states. So that's called the federal medical assistance percentage, AKA fmap. You might see that written about in articles. And so under that it can be as the lowest it gets statutorily is 50% and the highest it gets is 83%. And the poorer the state that you are, I think like Alabama is the top in terms of that rate right now it's around like 73% for the matching rate. But if you cut the Medicaid expansion down to those levels, what happens is that there are at least 12 states that have trigger laws that basically would kill the Medicaid expansion if the federal matching rate dips below 90%. So this is a backdoor way for them to cut Medicaid relying on these state laws that these trigger laws that say we're going to, we can eliminate Medicaid if the Federal, we can eliminate, eliminate Medicaid expansion if the federal matching rate dips below 90%. So they're claiming that they're not going to try to cut Medicaid as they're trying to cut Medicaid. And there's no better example of this kind of just craven lying than Donald Trump last night and what he said via phone call to News Nation, hey.

[Stephen A. Smith]

And a big chunk of it was from China. Now China is sending its boats back. The boats are not being unloaded because they have a 145% tariff which is.

[Matt Binder]

You know, I know it's Stephen A. On his phone, but just, just texting.

[Stephen A. Smith]

A record setting type tariff and they can't sell their product here. And because of that, think of it, if you're losing all of that money, maybe you're better off not doing business with them. But I took $5 billion a day and cut it way, way down, way, way back. And I did that within a very short period of time.

[Astra Taylor]

When do you think though it's going.

[Emma Vigeland]

To turn around economically? I know this is the, it starts with Cuomo's question. I'm sorry if we have the incorrect timecode here. It's at.

[Russell]

I thought that was right, but maybe it's not.

[Emma Vigeland]

I sent. It's 1104, not one. That's where you were at. Okay, hold on one sec. We may have a different clip. I think that's what it is.

[Russell]

Yeah.

[Emma Vigeland]

Okay, here's the link. I'm sending it now. So scrap. Scratch that, folks. But it is funny to see. Yeah, like bring in the President of.

[Stephen A. Smith]

The United states who.

[Emma Vigeland]

Yep, 1104 here. Perfect. Thanks.

[Stephen A. Smith]

But we're going to make it on our terms.

[Donald Trump]

Mr. President.

[Stephen A. Smith]

Got to be fair.

[Donald Trump]

Mr. President, in the upcoming budget negotiations, another point of uncertainty is what happens to entitlements, whether or not waste, fraud and abuse. I think everybody's in favor of seeing that identified and exposed. But that Social Security benefits or the adjustments or the application of it may be compromised or Medicaid may be compromised. In terms of who gets how much in benefits, do you have a commitment for the American people in terms of how much you will protect those programs?

[Stephen A. Smith]

We're not doing anything with entitlements. And if you look at Social Security and by the way, I think I'm better to say this than anybody because I did nothing with entitlements that would hurt people for four years. I could have done that. If I was going to do that, I would have done it five years ago, six years ago or Seven years ago. I'm not doing anything. The only thing is, you know, you say don't talk about waste, fraud and abuse. There is a lot of waste, fraud and abuse. There are a lot of illegal aliens that are getting Medicaid that shouldn't be getting it. And nobody objects to taking people off Medicaid that aren't allowed to be there. But we are doing absolutely nothing to hurt Medicare, Medicaid or Social Security. Nothing at all.

[Shaza Aboushi Dalal]

STEPHEN A.

[Emma Vigeland]

Okay, so if you are undocumented, you can use Medicaid, I think, for emergency services. But we've gone through this over and over and over again, particularly about Social Security, which he has already, already harmed via whatever the Doge boys were doing. Shutting down the offices, making it more difficult for older people to use their phone system. They reverse that. But still creating this insecurity with people's experience with Social Security. There were checks that were delayed because of the Doge gripers fiddling around in the Social Security office. And you guys had Martin O'Malley on yesterday. I wasn't able to listen to that interview, but I'd imagine he wouldn't agree with the claim that the Trump administration has been kind in terms of its protections of Social Security.

[Matt Binder]

Absolutely not. And I would just say, like this whole thing where we pay lip service to the idea that, oh, we're all concerned with waste front abuse. Republicans aren't. They are using it as a warrant to attack it. The people who are concerned with waste fraud abuse are the bureaucrats who work at these organizations who should be better funded to root it out.

[Emma Vigeland]

Right.

[Matt Binder]

It's not the Republican recitation of waste fraud and abuse needs to be met as a sort of wolf in sheep's clothing style threat.

[Emma Vigeland]

It's because they know that they can't cut Social Security via the legislative process. Right. So Trump is relying on the fact that that was understood in his first term. Right. He understood that it would be the third rail and he didn't want to cut Social Security. He tried to cut the Affordable Care act until John McCain gave the thumbs down.

[Matt Binder]

And what was the balance of Congress for his last two years in office like? He didn't the Democrats have the House at least.

[Emma Vigeland]

Yes, Right, Right. So, but that was in his first two years, which, which is what he was attempting to do was going after.

[Matt Binder]

Yeah, you say Obamacare.

[Emma Vigeland]

Yes. And so he does have that understanding that you can't through the legislator. He's not legislature. He's not going to have an easy time cutting Social Security. So he's doing it illegally on the back end. But Medicaid cuts because that's for not a broad based social program that you're all, everybody who is a citizen, by the way, is eligible for when they hit 65. That, that, that, that is such a popular program that they can't touch it. Republicans are going to go after programs that help the poor and as I mentioned, they're going to do it in this sleazy way where they pretend that they're not. Well, we're just, we're just tweaking the matching rate, understanding that in a dozen states across the country that means that Medicaid just gets eliminated. Right?

[Matt Binder]

So I didn't do it last time. So trust me, this time.

[Emma Vigeland]

Here you're right. Here he is again repeating this at his rally two days ago, celebrating his first hundred days, you know, of being the most unpopular president in your first hundred days in the history of polling. Let's all get together and make some lemonade at a lemons.

[Jeffries]

No tax on overtime. It's called the one big beautiful bill and it will be the biggest bill ever passed in our country's history. It will include the biggest tax cuts, regulation cuts, military supremacy and just about everything else. We will cut more than $1 trillion in wasteful and unnecessary spending. And in the next fiscal year, it'll all be done. We're going to have something that you won't even believe. We will end inflation, slash prices. We've already ended inflation, raise wages and give you the greatest economy in the history of the world. That's already happening with our tax bill. The average families take home pay will be at least $5,000 more than it was just a couple of months ago. Always protect Medicare and Social Security for our great seniors with no cuts. And we will defend Medicaid for those great people that are in need. House Republicans are working to invest more money in Medicaid than we spend today. The only thing we're going to cut is the corruption and the crooks that take advantage of.

[Emma Vigeland]

Okay, okay.

[Jeffries]

Some of the.

[Emma Vigeland]

There we go. Just, I know that we're used to the lying, but the unbelievable gall to say that you're not trying to cut Medicaid as the House Republicans are actively doing it as it is foundational to their economic agenda going forward is really just, just, it's just something else. And this is also the problem, by the way of not politically tying Donald Trump to the Republic Party and pretending he is in some way outside of these budget negotiations. Right. Because the Republican Party always, always has wanted to cut Social Security. They have always wanted to cut Medicare. They especially want to cut Medicaid right now because they think it's the softest target. And they think that going after poor people, as opposed to everybody, all of our seniors, is a more politically salient move for them. But when you say Donald Trump is a king and not a Republican or a part of a Republican apparatus, this is why he overperforms in presidential elections and Republicans can't match him in midterms because he's not at the top of the ticket, because people don't associate him with the Republican agenda of austerity and war on the poor. And he knows that in this way that he can just lie rampantly about what the Republican agenda is because he almost sees himself as outside of it, even as he benefits from it. So this is why it's important as a political matter to continue to make sure that it's like Mike Johnson, Donald Trump, one in the same, one in the same. Because he gets away with this because of his ability to brazenly lie and because, frankly, the Democrats give him the opportunity to do so. All right, folks, we are going to take a quick break in just a sec, but first, a word from our sponsors. Delete Me is a product that I have been using really almost for like, wow, like 10 years at this point. Eight years. I started using it when I maybe, maybe more like eight years when I started doing this kind of job. Was on air, wanted to protect my personal information. And I was pleased to see when I joined the Majority Report that Delete Me was a sponsor. I can speak to how Delete Me makes it easy, quick and safe to remove your personal data online. At a time when surveillance and data breaches are common enough to make everyone vulnerable. Data brokers make a profit off your data. Your data. Data is a commodity. Anyone on the web can buy your private details. This can lead to identity theft, phishing attempts, harassment and more. But you can protect your privacy with Deleteme data brokers. They get your name, your contact info, your Social Security number, your home address, even information about your family members. And this can all be compiled by these data brokers and sold online. We want to thank Deleteme for sponsoring today's episode. And as a person, as I say, who exists publicly and is an opinionated person publicly, which sometimes pisses people off, it's really important to have safety and security with my personal information. And it's easier than ever to find personal info about people online. All this data is just hanging out there on the Internet and it can have actual consequences in the real world. Take control of your data and keep your private life private by signing up for DeleteMe now at a special discount for our listeners today. Get 20% off your delete me plan by texting majority to 64,000. The only way to get 20% off is to text majority to 64,000. That's majority to 64000. Message and data rates may apply. Spring is springing and the best way to celebrate all of this nice greenery is to get some greenery of your own and not of the, you know, other kind.

[Matt Binder]

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[Emma Vigeland]

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[Matt Binder]

Can I do one final plug here? Yes, it's May Day and Jacobin magazine has a pretty great sale here. Celebrate May Day $1 subscriptions. Those are the digital subscriptions and $10. Only $10 for the print subscription. So I'd recommend folks absolutely go subscribe to Jacobin on Mayday.

[Emma Vigeland]

Jacobin is really one of the essential publications, great writers, great pieces over there. Check it out and all right, quick break. And when we come back, we are going to be speaking with. Here we go. In my notes, Sheyza Aboushi Dalal, staff attorney with Clear, one of the lawyers representing Mohsin Madawi.

[Astra Taylor]

Be right back.

[Emma Vigeland]

We are back. And we are joined now by Shaza Aboushi Dalal, staff attorney with the Creating Law Enforcement, Accountability and Responsibility Project. Clear. She is one of the lawyers for Mohsin Madawi, the Palestinian Columbia student and activist who was just released on bail yesterday from immigration detention. And you are also on Mahmoud Khalil's legal defense team. So thank you so much for coming on the show today.

[Mohsin Madawi]

Thank you for having me.

[Emma Vigeland]

So this is really good news. This broke yesterday. Mohsan is finally home. Can you take us through the case and what led to eventually yesterday the judge releasing him on bail?

[Mohsin Madawi]

Absolutely. So Mohsen Mahdawi is a Palestinian man. He grew up in a refugee camp in the West Bank, Palestine, and he came to the United States ten years ago. His home for the majority of the past decade has been Vermont. He also is an undergraduate student at Columbia University and is actually slated to graduate in just a few weeks this month before continuing on to a master's program at Columbia, which he now will be able to do because he'll be able to graduate because he's been released. He has been very active, lending his voice to calls around the country to end the genocide in Gaza and for the rights and lives of Palestinians, and has been active in doing that on Columbia University's campus, where he's an undergraduate student. And as a result of that activism, he became the victim of a really brutal doxing campaign that escalated over the course of the past few months. And so alongside Mahmoud Khalil and many other people had doxxing organizations like Bitar USA and Canary Mission calling for his deportation and harassing him and sending threats online and calling for others to do the same. And so he, you know, he knew that he was under threat from actors like that. And when he saw that other advocates for Palestinian lives like Mahmoud Khalil and then Ramehsa Oostur and Badr Khansouri were being abducted in broad daylight or from the entrances of their homes in early March, he was on alert about the potential danger that he might be targeted also for his First Amendment protected activity. And then in March, he received a notice. So the other thing to know is that Mohsen is a legal permanent resident and he has been a legal permanent resident for many years. And he is at the final stage of the process to become a citizen. And so in late March, he received an interview notice scheduling him for a naturalization interview at a USCIS office in Burlington, Vermont. And he went to that interview. And in the final moments of the interview, after he had completed it, he was abducted by Department of Homeland Security agents, and they attempted to whisk him away to Louisiana. And their plan to take him away from his community and from his home was thwarted because his legal counsel filed a habeas petition in federal court in Vermont before they had the opportunity to remove him. And they were not able to put him on the flight to Vermont. And so he has been in Vermont ICE detention since. And so it's, you know, yesterday it would have been, I believe, 10 days of detention. And yesterday, the District of Vermont, a federal court, heard him on his motion to be released on bail throughout the pendency of his federal court litigation. And he won. He was released. And the judge did this in acknowledgment of the fact that if he were to be kept in detention in retaliation for what is very clearly just his speech and First Amendment protected activity throughout the pendency of his litigation challenges challenging that retaliation, well, then the harm will have been done and released him in an effort to restore people around the country's faith in First Amendment rights and also in order to allow Mohsen to be out practicing his right to free speech, advocating for Palestinian lives, finishing his studies, which he has worked on so hard towards. And so it's a huge victory for Mohsen. It's a victory for the principles that are being litigated in this federal court and a number of other federal courts around the country right now.

[Emma Vigeland]

Does Mohsin have an inkling or a feeling that that immigration appointment might have been a way for the federal government to lure him to a place where they could potentially arrest him, or is that still kind of just being litigated in court?

[Mohsin Madawi]

Did he have an inkling when he went to his naturalization?

[Emma Vigeland]

Yes, yes, yes. Of course.

[Mohsin Madawi]

He was scared about the possibility, you know, because he received the notice in late March. He was seeing his peers being targeted by the Trump administration for exactly the type of speech for Palestinian lives that he had engaged in. He was seeing calls by, again, doxing organizations like Bitar US USA for his deportation, even making allegations around claims that the Trump administration had represented to them that he was next and they'd secured his targeting. And so I think he was fearful about that, but also hopeful that he had, as far as he's concerned, he's been a legal permanent resident for many years. This is the last stage of the process. He committed to becoming a United States citizen and went to the appointment. I think it's also important to note, you know, he had spent weeks living in fear. And I think it's a testament to exactly the power of the unconstitutional targeting that we're seeing from the Trump administration right now. The ability to make people around the country fearful that they too are going to be abducted if they show up to an immigration interview, if they write an op ed, if they deliver a speech, if they post any sort of social media post that advocates for the dignity and lives and freedom of people in Palestine or elsewhere, if it doesn't comport perfectly with the Trump administration's perspectives and top line policies.

[Emma Vigeland]

And this was obvious, was spoken about a bit by the judge is my understanding. The judge had very strong language. Crawford, to the actions by the Trump administration and the acting U.S. attorney in Vermont who was arguing on the Trump administration's behalf. Can you speak a little bit about what the judge said in some of the historical examples that were drawn upon in the judge's ruling?

[Mohsin Madawi]

Yeah, thank you for that question. He really did have very powerful things to say about what was at stake in this case and the historical backdrop. I mean, he said very plainly this is not the first time that we've seen the US Government try and wage detention and deportations in order to chill or completely shut down debate that we've been here before. And you know, he evoked the Red Scare, the Palmer raids of 1919 and 1920, the McCarthy era, and essentially situated this as a resurgence of that type of repression. He evoked a number of courts who in that time used habeas jurisdiction, used their power as federal courts to prevent that type of targeting of people in retaliation for their political speech and First Amendment protected activity. And situated his decision upon that backdrop. And I think he's right to do that. That is what we're witnessing now. And the decision to release Mohsen yesterday was a victory for Mohsen, but also does a huge deal to restore faith that we're not going to see people languish in detention centers far from their homes and their communities because they dare dissent or dare take a line that is different from the Trump administration's position or any other administration, that there will be checks and balances and courts will intervene to prevent that type of punishment.

[Emma Vigeland]

We only have you for a limited time. So I have really two questions here. And one is just about the future of his case because he's out on bail and prosecution. We could be seeing that in the future. What is your sense of how the, what the path forward is for Mohsen?

[Mohsin Madawi]

I mean, he has not at all at one point been charged with any kind of crime. Right. That's not what we're dealing with here. And so he's out on bail now and he still is in federal court asking for the court to vindicate his constitutional rights. And that battle continues and will continue to completion.

[Emma Vigeland]

And I just want to say the absurdity of being out on bail without a charge, I mean, this is unbelievable.

[Mohsin Madawi]

It absolutely is unbelievable. And underlies so much of what is unjust about what is happening to him. And not just him, but, you know, Mahmoud Khalil, Rameisa Osturk, Badr Khansouri, Leka Accordia, she's not in detention, but Yunso Chung, all of these cases in which we're seeing retaliation for political dissent, political speech, participating in protests. So he is seeking to have his constitutional rights vindicated and to challenge this retaliatory practice. That case continues in federal court, and that's what we have to look forward to and what we'll be battling ahead in court.

[Emma Vigeland]

And lastly, the arguments that you made to help free Mohsen, can those be applied to other cases? I mentioned that you also represent Mahmoud Khalil, who remains in ICE custody in Louisiana. Do you feel that this gives you and your legal team a roadmap here to work with trying to free some of the people you named, just including of Mahmoud? Yeah.

[Mohsin Madawi]

You know, the through line between all of these cases is these are people who, like Mohsen, are being targeted. And the administration is making no secret of this, are being targeted for their speech and for their organizing. And many of the people that I listed just a few moments ago also have motions requesting their release on bail in front of the federal courts that they are in and are waiting for those emotions to be decided on and even heard. And, you know, because they are sitting in detention as part of a plan to punish for their First Amendment protected speech, they too should be released. And the crux of it is that in their case and writ large, when it comes to people's faith in the First Amendment and the protections that it extends, the damage will be done if they continue to languish in detention while their cases are heard.

[Emma Vigeland]

Shaza Aboushidal, thank you so much for your time today. Really appreciate it. And thanks for coming on and all for all your work helping free these people who are being persecuted for protesting genocide.

[Mohsin Madawi]

So thank you you, thank you for having me. And we hope to see them all free.

[Emma Vigeland]

Absolutely. All right, quick break. And when we come back, we'll be talking to Astra Taylor. IT sa it. We are back. And we are joined now by friend of the show, Astra Taylor, documentary filmmaker, writer, co founder of the Debt Collective. Astra, thanks so much for coming on the show today.

[Astra Taylor]

Oh, my God. Thanks for having me.

[Emma Vigeland]

So we were talking in the break about the budget negotiations. The Republicans and I opened the show speaking about Medicaid cuts, but education is getting a little bit less attention. Astra, what are some of the more insidious ways that Republicans are targeting education in the proposed the proposals for the budget bill?

[Astra Taylor]

Yeah. Well, what they want to do is inflate the supposed savings from decimating public higher education and decimating student loan, not just student loan cancellation, but even the provision of subsidized student loans so that they can, of course, fund Republican tax cuts. So it's definitely gotten less attention. I think folks are rightly paying attention to potential cuts to Social Security, Medicaid, Medicare essential services. But higher education is on the top of the block. What we've got right now is the bill that the House Education and Workforce Committee has approved. So different committees do their dirty work and then cram it all into reconciliation depending on what the Senate has proposed. And so what we're seeing to just give a broad overview is pretty apocalyptic for education as we know it. In this sense, it's kind of another prong attacking higher ed along with the attacks on research funding, along with the attacks on campus protests. So we're seeing a total unleashing of the for profit college sector, getting rid of the basic regulations, getting rid of rules that, for example, let students who were defrauded apply for student loan relief. What we're seeing is things like caps on the availability of student loans on the end of subsidized student lending. So that's the kind of federal student loan you can get where while you're in college, you know, interest doesn't accrue. We are seeing also under the auspice of accountability, strange formulas that would essentially impose fines on universities when in cases where the graduating students cannot pay their debts. So this is all just part of a broader project that is aimed at ending education as a public and democratic good. So there's a lot of nitty gritty detail. We could go in there, but go into here, but the point is that.

[Emma Vigeland]

It'S, it's really bad and. Well, let's go into a little bit of that. And then I also want to talk, of course, about next week. But it, what does it look like for them to shrink the student loan payment system on the federal level? Like, what is that? That's how they're framing it. But what does that mean in practice?

[Astra Taylor]

Yeah, I mean, this is an interesting position for someone like me to be in. Right. I have been organizing with the Debt Collective, which is a union for debtors fighting for student loan cancellation. And now we're in a position, you know, I was saying before the election, we're not going to be talking about abolishing student loans when it's not altered. We're going to be talking about abolishing the Department of Ed, abolishing public education. And the thing is, you know, it's always been a problematic system, but essentially we've enabled, you know, working class, middle class people to access higher education through, through student loans. And when those, when access to those loans are taken away, working class and middle class people are not going to be able to afford college or they are going to be pushed into the private lending market. Right. So in other words, this, by, by shrinking the availability of subsidized federal student loans, by getting rid of the protections borrowers have, they're essentially going to be pushing people into the private loan market. So this is day for, this is, you know, a boondoggle for Wall street as well. Right. So the, the, it's, you know, they're, they're sort of getting multiple things out of this plan. One, they're destroying public education, which is something.

[Emma Vigeland]

Right.

[Astra Taylor]

They're determined to do. But they're also going to be enriching Wall street investors and shareholders, you know, enriching the private sector, enriching the for profit education sector. And so this really is going to put, you know, ordinary people in a major bind. Like the cost of borrowing is going to go up. You know, some estimates show part of it is also rolling back and diminishing current income driven repayment programs. The average borrower will pay $3,000 more a year. A borrower with a family will pay 5,000 more a year. So this is about squeezing working people, pushing them out of education, pushing them into the hands of profiteers and the consequences are going to be really severe. And I think felt pretty quickly, can.

[Emma Vigeland]

You draw that distinction for people between federal student loans and private ones? Because the wage garnishing if you have private student loans is that like on the table for you. My, my. I don't understand how the Trump administration could garnish wages if you don't repay your student loans if they're private. This just, that proposal just applies to public federal student loans, right?

[Astra Taylor]

Yeah. So, you know, after the Obama administration, the majority of student loans went in house. They're now, the Department of Education is now the agency that is responsible for over 90% of student loans. So most people have federal student loans. It used to be different. And there are many good books people can read on the history of student lending. But that means, you know, there. And again, there are problems with this coming from the perspective of the debt collective. We believe college should be free, publicly funded. We shouldn't have to borrow at all. There shouldn't be all of these opportunities for waste, fraud and abuse by the private sector. But, yeah, so when you have a federal student loan, you know, the government has sort of incredible powers of collection. So this is, you know, you're alluding to the fact that the Trump administration just, you know, made a lot of noise over the fact that, you know, a big to do about the fact that they're going to start collecting on student loan holders who are in default. So 5 million people have defaulted on their student loans. I defaulted on my student loans back in the day. I've been there. I was just after the Great Recession when I defaulted. We are about to enter a recession, so you can actually bet that lots more people are going to be entering default, especially with their payments rising. And these, this collection on default has been on pause since the COVID pandemic started. Right. So this is a big shock to the system.

[Emma Vigeland]

Right.

[Astra Taylor]

And the federal government can, you know, has sort of extraordinary tools. So it can garnish your Social Security, garnish your tax returns, garnish your wages. But private student loan holders also have lots of tools. They can sue you. They can, you know, issue default judgments and issue judgments against you. So the debt collectors, whether the debt collector is a private loan holder or the federal government, they have very punitive tactics that they can use. They can also just destroy your credit score, which can make it harder to get a job, make it harder to get housing, make it harder or impossible to get a mortgage. So it can cause the overall cost of borrowing to rise. So we're going to see a lot of pain in the coming months. And I think I just want to zero in on that word, punitive. This whole thing is, it's not about economics, it's not about education. This is about profit and punishment. It's about social control, right? It's about handing education over to profiteers, but also disciplining people, pushing people into certain fields of study or not studying at all, pushing people into certain jobs, making it harder to work in the public sector, making it harder to study, you know, non vocational subjects. This really isn't, you know, this is not about accountability. This is not about budget responsibility. This really is about a right wing agenda of disempowering ordinary people and increasing inequality on every level.

[Emma Vigeland]

But you can see that also in the, if you're, if we're the Republicans are trying to shuttle people towards the private student loan system, you can also view student debt as a way to push people into the private sector. I mean, this is, he's the privatization president and that's what Doge is trying to do, right? It's a war on public service and trying to get these people into the public sector, which is the, or the private sector rather, which is the only thing they see as valuable because it's making profit. And that's what student debt does. It makes people like say you want to be a lawyer, right? I mean, then you have to take on hundreds of thousands of dollars in student debt. You are much more likely to go work for a white shoe law firm than you are to become a public defender or work as like an immigration lawyer or something like that. Because you got to pay back hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt. And that's what they represent as the right wing populace, I've been told, like Josh Hawley or whatever. But like that's their, their, that's, that's their vision 100%.

[Astra Taylor]

I mean, you said it so. Right, Emma, it's, you know, and this is this, and this isn't something Trump invented, right? This is something that has been happening under both Democratic and Republican administrations. And the Democrats really bought this idea that, you know, the way to the middle class prosperity, the way to a decent life was not to, you know, address the sort of economy directly by increasing rates of unionization or raising the minimum wage and providing a livable wage or doing a federal jobs guarantee. Right? They were like, we're going to do education via debt. Right, right. Not publicly funding it. And so they kind of set the stage for this. And you know, that's one of the ironies of this moment again, you know, is that when you read through this, this bill that they're proposing, it's like, well, student debt is such a big problem, so we're going to have to Discipline the schools that are creating it by defunding it and enabling Wall street, you know, to, to lend to people. So there's a, you know, and this is why the solution is so clear. The solution is to go back to the model of publicly funding higher education, just like we need to go back to the model publicly funding health care and other essential social services so that we're not, you know, I mean, the, the details of this bill, you know, there's all these formulas and all of this, you know, BS math trying to justify these tax benefits. But the reality is, again, it's about profit and power. It's about social control. And not, as you said, not preventing people from going into public service, preventing people from just exercising their curiosity, from destroying research and education. And, you know, so we do, we, you know, we need to not get cut, get too lost in the weeds and remember the bigger picture, the bigger right wing agenda that's at play here. And also how the democratic sort of neoliberal approach to education is mere career training. Right. Has gotten us to this point.

[Emma Vigeland]

And this is why debt jubilee is something that is enormously important and has many, many historical examples. And, you know, it's because someone made this point on social media and responding to me and I don't have it in front of me, so I can't give them credit. But it adds no debt, adds no value to society, so it eventually eats itself. And there eventually has to be some sort of jubilee. But it's a question of how much pain people experience to get to that particular point. And obviously you're a debt striker, you are leading a movement of debt strikers. But should people begin to be concerned in this kind of May after May 5, when it appears that the Trump administration is going to start these forced collections on loans that are in default and they are threatening to garnish people's wages if the payments do not resume?

[Astra Taylor]

Yeah, well, I guess I would say that you can't get blood from a stone. People are in default because they don't have money to pay. And I speak as someone who was in that situation. So with the payments rising as these borrower protections are removed and income driven repayment plans are removed and pslf, which is public Service Loan Forgiveness, comes under attack, more and more people are going to be defaulting. And so at the debt collective, what we say is a default is a kind of debt strike. Right? You can't pay, but also you shouldn't pay because this debt is immoral, because it's the product of policy decisions. That are rigged for the 1%. So, you know, we invite people into our movement. I do think on the, on this reconciliation bill, we shouldn't act like the fight is lost already. We recommend that people call the representatives and that they make as much noise about the education provisions as we're making about the health care provisions and Social Security. Because this stuff, I think if more people know about it, it's deeply unpopular. Right. This is not just about student borrowers today getting screwed. It's about people's kids, it's about people's grandkids and the fact that they're essentially trying to push working class, middle class people out of education. And so I think there is power always in a movement and what we have to do, I think the eternal optimism of an organizer is out of this crap, out of this horrible situation. You know, we have to turn that into, you know, we have to radicalize people because this is showing the things we've been saying all along, which is that debt is about power. You know, that, that is, you know, none of this. Nobody believes that. I think if you read this, nobody believes that. Again, this is about economic well being or this is about education and making education better. This is really just big old money and power grab. So, you know, let's, let's out of these ashes, let's build up, let's, let's remake the higher education system and fight for something better instead of these piecemeal reforms that we've been fed the last two, three, four decades.

[Emma Vigeland]

Exactly. And you know, I think your work has been essential in getting even the Biden administration to listen and, and pursuing some version of student debt forgiveness. Obviously the Supreme Court laughably called it unconstitutional and then he was trying to try this other avenue. But it needs to be just like broad debt jubilee as opposed to doing the traditional kind of let's means test this. Are you eligible? Are you not? I think that what threatens folks with his ideology and neoliberal Democrats with broad based social programs is that once it's available to everybody, you can't get rid of it. That's why Social Security is the third rail. That's why Medicare is also untouchable. And it's because it is for everybody. And they're going after Medicaid because it's for poorer people. So if we're doing broad debt jubilee, then everybody benefits. And then since we have no critical empathy in the United States, once it happens to people, then they understand, oh, government can do this for me. Right? Like that's the key. So I mean, you had that quote up there. Matt, did you want to put that up of Roger Freeman? Yeah.

[Matt Binder]

It's one of my favorite articles by John Swartz here in the Intercept, which is the origin of student loan debt. Reagan adviser warned free college would create a dangerous educated proletariat because the economic actual argument for having people not pay, you know, their student loans, debts, instead have that money go toward contractors in their community or restaurants even, is just ironclad. This is about control, like you said, Astra.

[Astra Taylor]

I think that's so important. There's real echoes actually of this moment where there's student protesters, anti war protesters on campus, and the right is using that as a culture war wedge in order to attack education more broadly. Reagan wrote to the governorship of California by making his name as the enemy of student protesters, people who were protesting for civil rights, who were protesting against the Vietnam War. And he said, you know, we're going to impose tuition to make people think twice about carrying a picket sign. Right. So that is the history, as you know, it's never been smart economics. It's always had a very different valence. This idea of disciplining debt is a disciplinary measure. And I think your point, Emma, is so important about universal public goods. If we could have free higher education, then people would become quite accustomed to that. There would be kind of policy feedback loop where people would then, you know, think, well, I got it, so my kids should get it. And, and, and, you know, it becomes harder to roll back things that are, that are universal. And that's why we, I think we really need to put the, you know, put the flag and say that's what we're fighting for. We're fighting for free public education. Free as in cost, free as in freedom. Free isn't a place where you can exercise free speech. Free as in democratically controlled by the faculty, by the staff, by the students, you know, and, you know, the Biden administration did, you know, was, was pushed by our movements, you know, but they were so addicted to means testing and tweaking in the margins. What we're seeing with the Trump administration is a much bolder approach and one that almost makes me envious. You know, let's, let's take. I don't think there's a lot of lessons to learn from the Trump administration, but one is to push the envelope. And, you know, it would be wonderful to see a transformation that was this, this massive, but going in a democratic, egalitarian direction.

[Emma Vigeland]

Absolutely right. Astra Taylor, thanks so much for your time today. And how can people support your work at the debt collective or if they are a student debtor, somebody that wants to get involved in striking, what's the best place for them to go?

[Astra Taylor]

Yeah, please do go to debtcollective.org, follow us on social media. I also recommend looking at the Student Borrower Protection center for some advice on what to do in this moment. And again, you know, let's not assume that this reconciliation bill, that this awful stuff that was approved by the Education Workforce Committee is the land yet. So please do get involved in political pushback.

[Emma Vigeland]

All right, well, thanks so much, Astra. Good to see you.

[Astra Taylor]

Thanks.

[Emma Vigeland]

All right, folks, with that, we're going to wrap up the free part of this program and head into the fun half where we are going to have some fun. Tippy tappy Toe says student debt is also a tool for military recruitment. That's exactly right.

[Matt Binder]

I mean, it almost got me into the military when I was in high school. I very, you know, as a North Dakota kid, neither my parents went to college. The pitch of, you can do all this fun stuff in exotic places around.

[Emma Vigeland]

The world and your education's paid for.

[Matt Binder]

And your education you don't have to worry about paying for. That was very, very. I have friends who did it. And it wasn't. It was only because I became sort of polarized against the Iraq war that I didn't do that.

[Emma Vigeland]

Yeah. And this is also how.

[Matt Binder]

And now I got a lot of student loan debt.

[Emma Vigeland]

Right. That. That's your prize. But like, that is also, I would say, I think, part of, like the overall hiding of the ball of how we just should be paying our military members more. There are other ways to incentivize kids to join the military. And it doesn't have to be okay. You have your college paid for. And other folks who don't make that decision are stuck in a cycle of debt and immiseration for the rest of their lives. There are other options, but. Or we could go forward options.

[Matt Binder]

We could go phone in father's mode and not have a standing army. I think would be a nice thing to. Nice aspiration.

[Emma Vigeland]

That's right around the corner. I mean, I don't know.

[Matt Binder]

Mark Twain was like the last, sort of the last generation was like Mark Twain Pre World War I. Shame they couldn't figure it out because they were actually saying, we need a worldwide abolition of war. Stephen Kinzer has a really good book on that. And it's a shame that it's not even really, really thought of anymore. That that could even happen despite, you know, the implements of war being made by a select few number of companies in the world that could be probably neutralized if we wanted to.

[Emma Vigeland]

I also think that the, the, there's an increasing reliance on contractors and military contractors, mercenary groups as well, where the. Those should be basically made illegal. I think we should just pay our members of the armed services very well, including giving them health care and college. But college should be free for everybody.

[Matt Binder]

Or let's just keep dunking ships into the Red Sea because, you know, we want to minimize the effects of the genocide Israel is inflicting on the Palestinians.

[Emma Vigeland]

Exactly. And by minimize the effects, you mean minimize the effects of the trade. Yeah, yeah. Not to oh no. People's lives. Who gives a shit?

[Matt Binder]

Brutality and gore, like that stuff can continue, but it's just about, you know, can stuff get from, from India to, you know, Venice.

[Emma Vigeland]

We're going to head into the fun half in just a sec, but I did reason I read an IM here and if you become a member by going to jointhemajorityreport.com then you can also im the show. How about that? Matt, what's happening on Left Reckoning?

[Matt Binder]

A really great interview with Vincent Bevins on the landlord's workers party in Brazil. The what is it? Yeah, the Bernie Bros of the left, I guess. Check that out. Vincent's a great author and it's nice to talk to him about a work that doesn't sort of put you in an existential morbid fear of the apocalypse like the Jakarta Method.

[Emma Vigeland]

Yes. Yeah.

[Matt Binder]

But yeah, really great talk. I, you know, one of the cool things about this job is being able to talk to journalists like Vincent. So check that out. And patreon.com left recording Thomas Kennedy talking about DeSantis wife scandal and what sort of the what's going on with immigration in Florida. So check that out.

[Emma Vigeland]

And just a plug for Vincent. His book if we the Mass Protest Decade and the Missing Revolution is I think pretty essential reading if you're trying to get involved in activism.

[Matt Binder]

Yeah, I would say like it's a really good overview for folks who, you know, if have been paying or even not paying attention to politics but want like to see. Okay. What has happened over the past like 15 years. Exactly. That's a good refresher.

[Emma Vigeland]

All right guys, we're going to take some calls in the fun half. We'll see you on the other side. Bye bye. Well, soon on the other side. Bye bye.

[Shaza Aboushi Dalal]

Okay, Emma, please.

[Emma Vigeland]

Well, I just, I feel that my voice is sorely lacking on the majority report.

[Donald Trump]

Wait.

[Emma Vigeland]

Whoa.

[Shaza Aboushi Dalal]

Look, Sam is unpopular.

[Sam Cedar]

I do deserve a vacation at Disney World, so. Ladies and gentlemen, it is my pleasure to welcome Emma to the show.

[Emma Vigeland]

It is Thursday.

[Russell]

Yes, please, sir, I'm.

[Astra Taylor]

I'm.

[Sam Cedar]

I'm going to pause you right there.

[Emma Vigeland]

Wait, what?

[Sam Cedar]

You can't encourage Emma to live like this. And I'll tell you why. So was offered a tour. Sushi and poker. Boys. Tor. Sushi and. And poker with the boys. Who was offered Twerk.

[Emma Vigeland]

Yeah.

[Sam Cedar]

Sushi and poker with the boys.

[Emma Vigeland]

What?

[Sam Cedar]

Twerk, Sushi and poker.

[Emma Vigeland]

Tim's upset.

[Sam Cedar]

Twerk Sushi and poker with tooth boys was offered with twerk Sushi and that's what we call biz. Twerk, sushi and bulk with two boys.

[Emma Vigeland]

Right. Sushi and we're gonna get demonetized.

[Sam Cedar]

I just think that what you did to Tim Pool was me Mean.

[Emma Vigeland]

Free speech.

[Jeffries]

That's not what we're about here.

[Sam Cedar]

Look at how sad he's become now. You shouldn't even talk about it.

[Emma Vigeland]

I think you're responsible. I probably am in a certain way. But let's get to the meltdown here.

[Sam Cedar]

Sushi and poker with the boys. Oh, my God.

[Astra Taylor]

Wow.

[Sam Cedar]

Sushi. Sorry. I'm losing my mind. Someone's offered a tour. Sushi and poker with boys. Sushi and poker. Towards the boss. I think I'm like a little kid. I think I'm like a little kid. Think I'm like a kid. I think I'm like a little kid. I think I'm like a little kid. Had this debate 7,000 times. I'm losing my mind. So I'm not trying to be a dick right now, but, like, I absolutely think the US should be providing me with a wife and kids.

[Emma Vigeland]

That's not what we're talking about here.

[Sam Cedar]

It's not a fun job tour.

[Shaza Aboushi Dalal]

That's a real thing. That's real thing. Real thing. Willie Walker. That's a real thing. That's a real thing. That's a real thing. That's real thing. That's a real thing. That's real.

[Sam Cedar]

Ladies and gentlemen, Joe Rogan has done it again.

[Shaza Aboushi Dalal]

That's a real thing.

[Sam Cedar]

I think he might be blowing it out of proportion.

[Shaza Aboushi Dalal]

Real thing. That's offered the tor. That's a real thing. That's poker.

[Emma Vigeland]

Let's go, Joey.

[Sam Cedar]

Twerk, sushi and poker. Take it easy. Sushi and poker. Things have really gotten out of hand. Sushi and poker with boys.

[Shaza Aboushi Dalal]

Illusion off.

[Emma Vigeland]

Sushi.

[Sam Cedar]

You don't have a clue as to what's going on. Live YouTube.

[Emma Vigeland]

Sam has the weight of the world on his shoulders Sam doesn't want to do this show anymore anymore it was so much easier when the majority to report was just you happy let's change.

[Sam Cedar]

The subject Rangers and nicks are doing.

[Emma Vigeland]

Great now shut up don't want people saying reckless things on your program that's one of the most difficult parts about this show this is a pro killing.

[Sam Cedar]

Podcast I'm thinking maybe it's time we.

[Emma Vigeland]

Bury the hatchet left his best trump violet twerk don't be foolish and don't.

[Shaza Aboushi Dalal]

Tweet at me and don't the way.

[Russell]

Anna has all of these people love.

[Emma Vigeland]

It that's where my heart artist so I wrote my honors thesis about it you wrote an honest thesis I guess I should hand the main mic to.

[Sam Cedar]

You now you want to write foreign.

[Emma Vigeland]

Policy we already fund Israel dude are you against that That's a tougher question I haven't answered today.

[Shaza Aboushi Dalal]

Incredible theme song.

[Sam Cedar]

Hi bumbler Emma Vinland absolutely one of.

[Shaza Aboushi Dalal]

My favorite people actually not just in the game like.