2491 - Trump's Multi-Pronged Assault on Immigrant's Rights w/ Naureen Shah

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Majority Report with Sam Seder
Episode: 2491 - Trump's Multi-Pronged Assault on Immigrant's Rights
Guest: Naureen Shah, Human Rights Attorney and Deputy Director of Government Affairs, Equality Division at the ACLU
Release Date: May 6, 2025

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Introduction

In Episode 2491 of The Majority Report with Sam Seder, host Sam Seder engages in a critical discussion with Naureen Shah from the American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU). The episode delves into the Trump administration's aggressive policies targeting immigrants' rights and the multifaceted strategies employed by the ACLU to combat these measures.

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Trump Administration's Tariff Strategies and Economic Impact

Timestamp: 09:12 - 17:59

The conversation begins with Sam and his co-host Emma Viglin discussing the Trump administration's imposition of exorbitant tariffs on imports from China, likening some tariffs to an embargo. They explore the economic ramifications, emphasizing the strain on small businesses, particularly in the fashion industry, due to skyrocketing shipping container costs and supply chain disruptions.

Notable Quote:
Sam Seder (11:14):
"That difference in attitude... because not getting sleep sucks. But also why not give your mom some fudge with some Sabbath day or coffee with Sabbath day."

Emma critiques Treasury Secretary Bessant's handling of the tariffs, suggesting that the administration's approach is more self-serving than beneficial to the general populace.

Sam Seder (16:33):
"They're trying to communicate that to... because it doesn't seem like they're entering into good faith negotiations."

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ACLU's Legal Battle Against Trump's Immigration Policies

Timestamp: 25:48 - 53:28

Naureen Shah provides an overview of the ACLU's extensive legal efforts to counteract the Trump administration's attempts to undermine civil liberties. She highlights several key areas of focus:

1. Alien Enemies Act (AEA):
   The ACLU has filed numerous lawsuits challenging the administration's use of the AEA to deport immigrants without due process. Shah explains that the AEA is a wartime authority and its invocation by the President is unprecedented and legally questionable.

   Notable Quote:
   Naureen Shah (28:24):
   "We have filed dozens and dozens of lawsuits, Sam. The fact is that it's even hard sometimes when you work here to keep track of quite all of them."

2. Weaponization of Government Agencies:
   The administration is accused of using the Department of Justice and other agencies to enforce extreme immigration policies, leading to the erosion of constitutional protections for immigrants.

   Shah (30:20):
   "What we're seeing is that the Trump administration wants to weaponize the Department of Justice, weaponize the Department of Defense..."

3. Intimidation of Local Governments:
   The Trump administration's attempts to coerce sanctuary cities and states into complying with federal immigration enforcement are met with resistance. The ACLU is actively supporting local officials in defending their jurisdictions against unfounded legal threats.

   Shah (48:36):
   "State and local government officials have to help the Trump administration go after people in their Communities under the 10th Amendment of our Constitution. They do not have to offer up local resources to support a federal program."

4. Data Collection and Privacy Concerns:
   The discussion touches on the administration's push for data collection through apps like CBP1, raising alarms about privacy infringements and the potential for misuse of personal information to expedite deportations.

   Shah (54:34):
   "The president said before he was elected he wanted to get to 20 million deportations. And we don't even have 20 million people who according to most estimates are undocumented."

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Legal Challenges and Court Rulings

Timestamp: 35:53 - 43:07

Shah details specific legal battles, including the case against Kilmar Abrego Garcia—a Maryland father deported to El Salvador despite acknowledging his mistake. The ACLU argues that the administration's actions violate due process and other constitutional rights.

Notable Quote:
Shah (35:53):
"We're going to compile a list of so-called sanctuary jurisdictions. And once we have that list, we're going to notify those jurisdictions and say, we're looking at criminal penalties against you."

She also discusses a recent ruling by the Southern District of Texas, where Judge Boasberg rejected the improper invocation of the AEA, emphasizing that the administration failed to meet statutory requirements.

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Impact on Local and National Communities

Timestamp: 42:00 - 60:26

The conversation explores the broader implications of the administration's policies on both immigrant and American communities. Shah warns that the erosion of rights for immigrants sets a dangerous precedent that could infringe upon the civil liberties of all individuals within the country.

Notable Quote:
Shah (60:26):
"Once you've done it to one person in the country, you've done it to all the people in the country."

She highlights incidents where U.S. citizens have been harassed by ICE agents, raising concerns about the universal applicability of these oppressive measures.

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Future Outlook and ACLU's Strategy

Timestamp: 56:28 - 61:34

Naureen Shah emphasizes the ACLU's commitment to continuing legal challenges and supporting affected communities. She anticipates further attempts by the administration to expand its authoritative reach, possibly targeting U.S. citizens and increasing militarization at the borders.

Shah (57:34):
"The end game is to have much more capacity to do deportations. And also, what starts with immigrants could then impact U.S. citizens."

She calls for vigilance and proactive measures from both legal entities and the public to safeguard constitutional rights against escalating governmental overreach.

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Conclusion

The episode concludes with Sam Seder reiterating the severity of the Trump administration's policies on immigrant rights and the pivotal role of the ACLU in opposing these measures. The discussion underscores the importance of due process, constitutional protections, and the need for continued activism to protect vulnerable communities from systemic injustices.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Naureen Shah (28:24):
  "We have filed dozens and dozens of lawsuits, Sam. The fact is that it's even hard sometimes when you work here to keep track of quite all of them."

• Naureen Shah (30:20):
  "What we're seeing is that the Trump administration wants to weaponize the Department of Justice, weaponize the Department of Defense..."

• Naureen Shah (48:36):
  "State and local government officials have to help the Trump administration go after people in their Communities under the 10th Amendment of our Constitution. They do not have to offer up local resources to support a federal program."

• Naureen Shah (54:34):
  "The president said before he was elected he wanted to get to 20 million deportations. And we don't even have 20 million people who according to most estimates are undocumented."

• Naureen Shah (35:53):
  "We're going to compile a list of so-called sanctuary jurisdictions. And once we have that list, we're going to notify those jurisdictions and say, we're looking at criminal penalties against you."

• Naureen Shah (60:26):
  "Once you've done it to one person in the country, you've done it to all the people in the country."

---

Key Takeaways

• Aggressive Immigration Policies: The Trump administration has implemented multifaceted strategies, including exorbitant tariffs and the invocation of the Alien Enemies Act, to pressure and deport immigrants without due process.

• ACLU's Legal Response: The ACLU is actively filing lawsuits, providing legal support to affected individuals and local governments, and challenging unconstitutional actions to protect civil liberties.

• Economic and Social Impacts: The administration's policies are not only targeting immigrants but also destabilizing local economies and eroding trust in governmental institutions.

• Future Threats: There's a looming threat that these policies could extend to U.S. citizens, highlighting the need for sustained advocacy and legal challenges to uphold constitutional rights.

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For listeners interested in the full discussion, visit Majority.FM for more information and access to the episode.

Transcript

[Sam Seder]

Folks, Mother's Day is this weekend. Are you aware of that? Emma, let's be honest. Moms put up with a lot. Long days, sick kids, ungrateful children, unpaid domestic labor, working on their kids weddings and getting no absolute gratitude whatsoever.

[Emma Viglin]

Did she call you this morning?

[Sam Seder]

This weekend, treat all the moms in our lives to something sweet, sensible and full of Saba day. That actually might be a good idea for you. Now through May 11, you can save 30% on all Sabade Gummies when you use the code MOM25. MOM25. Whether you're shopping for your mom who might like to get a little buzzed or a new mother who might need a little help with sleep, Sunset Lake has something for everyone. The good night oil is great. It works for me on a regular basis. I don't know if people have noticed there's a slight difference in my attitude.

[Emma Viglin]

Oh yeah.

[Sam Seder]

When I was introduced to that. Because not getting sleep sucks. But also why not give your mom some fudge with some Sabbath day or coffee with Sabbath day. Or gummies, gummies that even have a little tattoo so they can have a fun time while they sit. And you know, if they got little kids, wait for the kids to take a nap. That's all. This sale ends May 11th at midnight. So don't wait. Give the mom in your life something she'll love. Head over to sunset like Sabbath Day.com. use the code MOM25MOM25 for 30% off of all Sab day gummies. Oh, I guess maybe it's just the gummies. Is it just the gummies? Well, check it out, you'll see. It's 30% off all gummies but they've got. I pop a couple of these, these focus gummies before the show. And here's the Also you're going to get 30% off with mom 25 even if you're not giving it to your mother. So go for it. All Sabbath day gummies. Sunset Lake of course a great movement partner, great farming practices, great labor practices, great all around company. Check them out. Sunsetlakesabade.com code is MOM M O M number 25. MOM 25. 30% off of all seven day gummies. Now for the show the Majority Report with Sam Cedar. It is Tuesday, May 6, 2025. My name is Sam Seder. This is the five time award winning Majority Report. We are broadcasting live steps from the industrially ravaged Gowanus Canal in the heartland of America, downtown Brooklyn, usa. On the program today, Noreen Shah, human rights attorney deputy director Government affairs Equality Division at the ACLU to talk about the various attacks on immigrants and immigration by the Trump regime. Meanwhile, Trump to meet Canadian Prime Minister Carney. Canada looks east for trade and maybe for a lot more things. In Germany. German parliament elects Friedrich Mares Chancellor on a second ballot. Reminder. The AfD is the second largest party in the German Parliament. They are extremely right wing. Speaking of extremely right wing. In the wake of Israel's occupation of Gaza, Hamas says no point to truce talks. We're going to get totally occupied. Meanwhile, that crypto bill winding its way through the Senate hits a snag as some Democrats realize it is corrupt as hell. We'll see how long that lasts. First Circuit Appeal Court rejects Trump regime's attempt to revoke temporary protected status for hundreds of thousands of Cubans, Haitians, Nicaraguans and Venezuelans. And the dni, headed by Ateliersi Gabbard has declassified a memo. It shows Venezuelan gangs. This is going to come as a surprise. Are not an invading force sent by Venezuela.

[Emma Viglin]

Huh?

[Sam Seder]

DOJ sides with the Biden administration's defense of Misa Pristone. Mifa Pristone in federal court.

[Emma Viglin]

Saw those polling numbers with women.

[Sam Seder]

Huh? Gavin Newsom's big gamut. Now we get it. He wants $7.5 billion in tax credit for Hollywood from Donald Trump. Unclear if he met with. With Bo Derek or is James woods still alive? I'm serious. I don't know.

[Emma Viglin]

How about Clint Eastwood?

[Sam Seder]

Kemp passes on a Georgia Senate run. Ossoff now likely to face a total right wing freak.

[Emma Viglin]

Please. Marjorie Taylor Greene, we're begging you to run.

[Sam Seder]

AOC passes on a run for oversight committee post. And Thom Tillis comes out against Ed Martin. Meaning we may very well be entering into the 2026 Senate race. Era all this and more on today's Majority Report. Welcome, ladies and gentlemen.

[Emma Viglin]

It is Newsday Tuesday.

[Sam Seder]

Yes. Emma Viglin.

[Emma Viglin]

Hello.

[Sam Seder]

Welcome. Let's just not discuss basketball on the free half of the program. I don't have to discuss. We don't have to discuss it.

[Emma Viglin]

I don't gloat until the fat lady sings. I'm not that kind of fan. If it. If anything happens at the end of this, I'll be insufferable. But you know, I don't. I've learned from my Kamala predictions.

[Sam Seder]

Yeah, okay. All right, good. That's good to hear. Speaking of which, pop this up, folks. We have new merch in the Majority Report merch store. I rarely do this in the free half of the show, although I don't know why I should probably do it more often in the free half of the show than the fun half. But I'm super excited about these. We have a max left hat trucker's cap with of course, a little side majority report logo that you can see there. And then we also have the patch trucker's hat that's on pre order. We got the max left T shirt. We've had the.

[Emma Viglin]

You want to show that you're on the max left. You. This is the shirt for you.

[Sam Seder]

Do we have any more, Emma majority hats or.

[Emma Viglin]

We should have. If you scroll down, I mean, you can get the whoopsie. You can get the days of the week. Emma Jordy, I think might have been limited edition. Maybe we bring.

[Sam Seder]

We may have to bring that back at one point, but right now. And I think this max left is probably also a limited edition, so scroll up.

[Noreen Shah]

Nice hoodies down there. I didn't even know we had hoodies.

[Emma Viglin]

I know, dude.

[Sam Seder]

We got quality stuff, all made in America, all uni, the union shop. These are quality goods. I mean, you saw somebody on the subway today. I saw a lot of people on the subway today, but one of them was wearing a majority report hoodie. Is that right? Shout out to that guy. Did you say hello? No. All right, well, let's get into it. I don't know that many people in business, but I do know a couple and they are freaking out. Yeah. And particularly people who are in fashion. And I don't mean high fashion. I mean just general, like the clothing business. And I spoke to someone yesterday and of course this is all just anecdotal, but he's like, you have no idea. There are so many businesses that are just going to go out of business because there's no way they can afford to. And he said, like, they're smaller ones. There's no way they can afford to pay these tariffs. And he said, right now, try and go get. He said containers are going to be super expensive. They're going back up to like Covid levels.

[Noreen Shah]

Shipping containers.

[Sam Seder]

Shipping containers. Because they're not in the flow of what's going on. So many have stayed in China because they're not sending stuff over here. They're going to different directions. So, you know, the way this works is the containers get sent to from China here with stuff and then somebody rents them to go back to some other place. But if they're not here when you need to rent them, they're super expensive to get because you've got to. You got to get them to come here and of course there's a lot less imports coming because of the tariffs. He said people are going to probably like the 10% people are going to, they'll still send stuff, but everything's shutting down from China, he said. He also said try and find a bonded warehouse, which was something that I wasn't quite sure what it was, but what a bonded warehouse is apparently is it's like, it's basically the functional equivalent of like an escrow account. You put your goods into the bonded warehouse and they're not subject to the tariffs yet, but as soon as they come out, they are subject to the tariffs. And so a lot of people are just storing all their stuff. They're hoping this all blows over. He said a lot of people have like, sort of like front loaded and bought in stuff, which is ironic too because we have a, the biggest trade deficit in March that we've had right in maybe ever.

[Emma Viglin]

Because everyone was buying, because everybody's buying.

[Sam Seder]

Buying, buying, trying to get in under the. Before the tariffs, when we were getting ripped off, when we were getting totally ripped off. And the one rumor he said that's going around, he says he has no idea if it's true. He said that Trump is going to roll back the China stuff, the China tariffs on Mother's Day, like as like some gift to moms or something. And he said, and I said, what, what possible sense does that make? And he goes, it's just an excuse because everybody knows this is going to be a disaster. And you can read it in Secretary of the Treasury Bessant. Is it Bessant? Is that how we say his name?

[Noreen Shah]

It's Besant Besson.

[Sam Seder]

Secretary Bessant.

[Emma Viglin]

He does have the kind of elitism that might, you know, you might infer.

[Sam Seder]

That he refers to himself Secretary Bessant. You can Treasury Secretary see it on his face.

[Emma Viglin]

And even in the podcast audience will be able to hear how he stammers the entire time.

[Noreen Shah]

He's one of Cruella deville's friends.

[Sam Seder]

He's on cnbc and he really, you know, I of course am in no position to criticize someone for stammering at all. But he does it in a way that really makes it feel like he is just doesn't want to be there.

[Matt]

You're heavily involved here. You have said they need to de escalate and start that process for us to get going on trade talk. Have they made any effort at this point?

[Sam Seder]

Positive. One second. Just to be clear, just to be clear, the question is, you have said that China needs to de Escalate before we get into talks. And by de escalate it means stop resisting.

[Emma Viglin]

Yeah.

[Sam Seder]

The 140% tariffs.

[Emma Viglin]

Stop flexing on us.

[Sam Seder]

50% tariffs in my understanding is essentially an embargo. If you do 50% tariffs you are basically saying nothing's coming. Don't ship anything. You're not going to ship anything. It basically shuts it down. It just makes it impossible at that point.

[Noreen Shah]

What China is doing is like working with South Korea and Japan which is not I think what best would consider de escalation.

[Sam Seder]

This guy also told me like the cost just, you know, and I've mentioned this dynamic before. If a good comes in and it's bumped up by 10%. Right. It was 50 bucks and now it's 55 bucks. The distributor, they don't. If before they would have 10% fee on it which would have been $5. Right on 50. That's the. I take $5 out of that and now their fee is five hundred and fifty because it's 10% and it goes on. And then the markup is also done by percentage. It's not done by $. We're just going to keep the $5 markup as opposed to the 10% or 50% markup. Whatever. So.

[Emma Viglin]

And even if this your your friends hunch is right and there's this exit ramp for Mother's Day which is psychotic. This, it doesn't necessarily matter. One in terms of like this impact on the economy and the precarity and lack of investment that this has but also on the incentive that this has created for corporations to price gouge regardless of what the impact is.

[Sam Seder]

Yep. There's, I mean we are past the point of no return at least for some hit on the economy.

[Emma Viglin]

Yep.

[Sam Seder]

It's just a question of how severe it's going to be late and start.

[Matt]

That process for us to get going on trade talk. Have they made any effort at this point? I think, I think we could see substantial progress in the coming weeks. We'll see that as I think it's Stein's law, that which is not sustainable doesn't continue.

[Sam Seder]

So 145%, 125% tariff levels are the equivalent of an embargo.

[Matt]

And we're reading every day what's happening with factories in China. And from an academic point of view I can tell you that the history of trade battle.

[Sam Seder]

We are the deficit country.

[Matt]

The surplus country always has the most to lose. So they need, they need to make more gestures. What is it that you're looking For. And is that happening?

[Emma Viglin]

Is there a negotiation about the negotiation?

[Matt]

Yeah, we'll see over, over the coming.

[Sam Seder]

Weeks and we'll see what President Trump wants to accept.

[Emma Viglin]

Right.

[Matt]

I mean, have they offered anything on the fentanyl, for instance, precursor ingredients?

[Sam Seder]

They are almost what they have said publicly. So. And you know, I can tell you, I mean, he's so desperate, the, the deficit country always survives better.

[Noreen Shah]

Well, you know, the home team wins game seven. 75%.

[Sam Seder]

Exactly. Exactly. In this instance, the dynamic may be a little bit different than it has been in the past.

[Emma Viglin]

Right.

[Sam Seder]

Because you know what? I'm suspecting that there's never, ever, ever, ever been a time where someone just out of the blue decides to launch a 140% tariff on somebody. I just, I have a feeling it's like, yeah, home team wins 75% of the time, but not when they have decided that the, they're, they're arresting their starters, they're good, they're resting their starters, or they're going to wear their pants on their, you know, on tops and their shirts on their bottoms. Like, maybe that's not. But something I can't even say, like, there are talks. I mean, he's out there trying to, to essentially provide some reassurance.

[Emma Viglin]

Yeah.

[Sam Seder]

For the markets, people in business.

[Emma Viglin]

That's been his whole role entire time.

[Sam Seder]

But he can't do it, of course.

[Emma Viglin]

Not, because it's insane. He admitted it's basically an embargo in that clip. I think they may have said that before, but saying that explicitly, as we're in this incredibly precarious time when we're this reliant on Chinese imports, to say it's functionally an embargo also doesn't make it seem like you're entering into good faith negotiations. Nor does it back up Donald Trump's claims that this is going to make us the richest country ever again.

[Sam Seder]

He's trying to communicate that to, to.

[Emma Viglin]

Trump by calling it an embargo on cable news. I forgot. Yeah. This was. It's almost like Trump 1.0 where cabinet officials have to go TV to make pleas to him like Republicans used to.

[Sam Seder]

I mean, I think that is clearly he is going on to either communicate to Trump or to try and get people who are in Trump's orbit to go in and say these things. Because I don't think Trump's listening to him. Beset Besant. I can't figure out your name. I don't listen to you.

[Emma Viglin]

Why, why would China give us one inch? Because ever. Because they're So I saw this article in FTSE that said that, you know, like over 80% of Apple manufacturing, like all of their supply lines are within China. This is going to affect us every day that this goes on. China strengthens its economic position in the world. So unless the US Drops it, we're. We're out of luck here.

[Sam Seder]

In a moment, we'll be talking to Noreen Shah, human rights lawyer, Deputy Director of Government Affairs, Equality Division at the aclu, about what's going on with just a bevy of cases that they're involved in trying to protect immigrant rights. I mean, other cases as well. But first, a couple of words from our sponsors. Delete Me makes it quick and easy and safe to remove your personal data online when a time when surveillance and data breaches are common enough to make everybody vulnerable. Easier than ever to find personal information about people online. Having your address, your phone number, your family members, names hanging out on the Internet can have actual consequences in the real world and make everybody vulnerable. More and more online partisans, nefarious actors, are going to find this data and use it to target political rivals, civil servants, even outspoken citizens posting their opinions online. Want to thank Delete Me for sponsoring today's episode With Delete Me, I protect both my personal privacy, the privacy of my business. I will tell you right now that Delete Me is helpful regardless. I mean, obviously, I've been using Delete me for almost 10 years now, way before they became a sponsor. I think I got Emma to be using Delete Me before they became a sponsor.

[Emma Viglin]

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[Sam Seder]

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[Emma Viglin]

You did?

[Sam Seder]

Yep.

[Emma Viglin]

It was a big hit.

[Sam Seder]

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[Emma Viglin]

Oh wow, that's great.

[Sam Seder]

And then I was like, use our coupon code. You could do this from anywhere just off your phone. Really. Honestly, great gift, super easy to set up and Aura has a great deal for Mother's Day. For a limited time. Listeners can save on the perfect gift by visiting aura frames.com get $35 off plus free shipping on their bestselling Carver Mat frame. That's a U R A frames.com promo code. Majority Support the show by mentioning us at checkout. Terms and conditions apply link in the podcast and YouTube description quick break. Noreen Shah, Human rights lawyer and Deputy Director of Government Affairs Equality Division at the aclu.

[Noreen Shah]

IT.

[Sam Seder]

We are back. Sam Cedar Emma Viglin on the Majority Report it's pleasure to welcome the program. Noreen Shah, human rights lawyer and deputy Director of Government Affairs Equality Division at the aclu. Noreen, thanks so much for joining us.

[Matt]

Thanks for having me.

[Sam Seder]

So give us a sense. I mean there's so many cases. It feels like the ACLU is involved in both sort of like on a national level but also like locally across the country. Just give us a sense of like the the scope of the types of cases the ACLU is doing and you know, to the extent that there are some big ones outside that scope and then we will sort of like funnel down into the immigration cases.

[Matt]

Yeah, absolutely, Sam. There's so much happening Right now with the Trump administration's attacks on our civil rights. And we knew that would be the case. And at the aclu, we've been preparing for really the whole last year before the president even won the election for this moment. And what we knew we'd be facing was attacks on our democratic institutions, whether it's universities, state and local government leaders in opposition to what the Trump administration is doing, the entities in the US Government that fund vital services. The ACLU is standing ready and actually is suing it in court to support racial justice, support free speech, support all of our constitutional rights as they're being attacked in so many different ways by this administration. My colleagues are in court every other day, if not every day, fighting on a whole slew of cases to protect our rights.

[Sam Seder]

Do you have a sense of how many cases the ACLU is actively engaged against the Trump administration at this point?

[Matt]

We have filed dozens and dozens of lawsuits, Sam. The fact is that it's even hard sometimes when you work here to keep track of quite all of them. But, yeah, it is just a tremendous number. Every day we see new executive actions coming out from the Trump administration. In fact, this president has signed an enormous amount of his executive orders, if you compare him to his predecessors. And that means that he's continuing to tee up those attacks. And the ACLU is responding in kind as well as our partners.

[Sam Seder]

Do you guys have moments in the, like, I don't know how if it works there guys have a commissary or what, but I mean, do you sit around and go like, well, I knew it was going to be bad, but I didn't realize it was going to be like this.

[Matt]

I can't say that we do that. Honestly, Sam. The thing is that we were preparing for the worst in so many different ways. And we were all thinking about what are the worst things that the President could do, the powers that he has and stretching the law to the limit and even willingness to break the law and go beyond constitutional norms. That was in our minds. And the reason is because we had lived through a lot of this. A lot of us were fighting during the first Trump administration. And what we know from that time was that the President was proposing to do things that at times he wasn't even allowed to move forward on because there were the so called adults in the room who were holding him back. And what a second Trump administration promised was that those adults in the room were not going to be there. And instead he was going to surround himself with loyalists, with people who would say, yes, to his worst impulses. And that is, of course, what we have seen, people like Stephen Miller who are eager to use this administration's powers to the fullest potential to go after immigrants and to go after our communities.

[Emma Viglin]

There's also, I would say, the added dynamic, too, of Pam Bondi as Attorney general and the different way that the Trump administration has approached the Attorney General's office, the Department of Justice, like, that's a whole new set of challenges, I'd imagine, for the aclu.

[Matt]

What we're seeing is that the Trump administration wants to weaponize the Department of Justice, weaponize the Department of Defense, weaponize all kinds of agencies across the board to achieve their ends, which include going after immigrants, going after political protest and dissent, going after anyone who does not toe their line across a range of issues. And the problem is, at the same time, the administration is also trying to gut these agencies. And so you see that they're hemorrhaging staff every day. They're career lawyers who know how to do the work of the Department of Justice, even as they're trying to weaponize the Department of Justice to go after our communities and our civil rights.

[Sam Seder]

Yeah, that's a. I want to get to that point in just a moment, because I think that's an interesting dynamic. But before I do, one question that may be outside of your portfolio, but from your perspective and your colleague's perspective, is the dynamic that Trump gets an idea in his head and just there's nobody there. There's no adults in the room to stop him, or is it that he has surrounded himself with, you know, for lack of better term, I know that you wouldn't use this one necessarily, but colloquially lunatics who, because Trump knows they're protecting him, they're just allowed to do what they want. And so they're sort of like, I wouldn't say freelancing. You know, it's within stuff that makes sense to Trump, but, like, they're. They're. They're sort of like it's being generated from, like, Stephen Miller, to me, feels like a guy who has an agenda that Trump would be just too lazy to develop, but he's fine to sign off on it on some level. Is that your sense, or is that too sort of obscured to us?

[Matt]

We don't know that. When we were the first Trump administration, we saw all this turnover within the White House happening the first year. Remember, we kept going through all these, and so it was clear you could read between the lines, and sometimes you would see leaks that made it clear that There was disagreement within the White House at its highest level. We don't have that kind of insight at this point into what's happening in the White House. What is clear is that there are people who've been waiting in the wings, people like Stephen Miller who had years and years to dream of their plans, and they broadcast those plans. They told the New York Times and they told others. Here's what we're planning to do. And some of what they were planning to do was outlandish, would be unprecedented if it happened. It was extreme and reckless. And of course, that's exactly what we see the administration embarking on right now. Threatening something like threatening to reopen Alcatraz. Sounds like something the President might have thrown out in a meeting. It could equally be something that there's people in the administration who said, let's reopen prisons, let's increase mass incarceration in this country, let's outsource prisons to other countries. It's hard to know which is which. Are they giving way to the President's worst impulses or are they acting on long standing ambitions? It's probably a little bit of both.

[Sam Seder]

That point you made about the doj, you've got career lawyers who I, in some instances resigning career lawyers that are, you know, have been fired. Talk about this dynamic where the it feels like the administration does not have the resources to actually fight the number of cases that are coming at them. Like, how often does that come up in the type of cases that the ACLU and that you're aware of, where it's just like they punt and try and push the case down the road because they don't have the resources to address each one. It's almost like the opposite of their sort of media strategy in flooding the zone. It's almost like the ACLU and other organizations have flooded their zone on a legal basis.

[Matt]

Well, we're winning in a lot of these cases, and not only the aclu, but also our partners. And the reason we're winning is because we're asserting fundamental bedrock ideas and principles in our Constitution, like due process. And so you even see federal judges who were appointed by President Trump in his first term, like the judge in Southern District of Texas saying, actually no, the Alien Enemies act, this wartime authority cannot be invoked by snapping your fingers and magically saying that it can be invoked. It's the overall due process and the virtually passed law in the process summarily send people to a place like the sitcom, which is known as the prison where people are tortured. So the Trump administration is filing a breach. It's not the case that they don't have the lawyers to file the breach. The sufficiency of those briefs, the sufficiency of the arguments. And there's a lot of questions to be raised about why the administration is continuing to put forward really extreme legal positions that it doesn't have to. It's putting those positions in their briefs. They're also saying things on television and in press conferences that are really bewildering from a strategic point of view, like in the case of Kamara Garcia, this man, this Maryland father who sent to El Salvador. You've got to wonder why the administration is digging so hard. The American public clearly believes that this is a person who should be brought back to the United States. And it's an example of the cruelty and the recklessness of this administration.

[Sam Seder]

I was just going to ask you if we could take a break and maybe reconnect because we're having a little bit of connectivity problems. Would you mind just trying to reconnect because we can pick up right there because it is a fascinating question. You can just sort of log off on that red button down below the screen there and then just come back in and we'll let you back in. We Noreen was just telling us that from their observations, the Trump administration is making very radical and extreme contentions in their briefs, in their arguments and in public, on television, on these cases in a way that Noreen was suggesting were almost unnecessary.

[Matt]

Right.

[Sam Seder]

And she was just citing, you know, just to recap because I know she was sounding a little roboty there, the Abrego Garcia case, like, why doesn't the administration just bring him back? They admitted in the, in the context of court that, that they had made a mistake. Why not just bring him back? And it's as if they're attempting to set some type of precedent. And when she comes reconnects, we will ask her that question. Let's take a quick break. So we're back. And Noreen, you were just telling us that from your observation, the observation, your colleagues, the administration seems to be making arguments in their briefs that are extreme and in some instances radical. And you also cited, like, their unwillingness to bring Rigo Garcia back when they sort of have indicated they could. And the implication being that it's almost like they're not necessarily, I don't want to say trying to win the cases, but they, they, it's as if they are trying to make some other point and they're going in some other direction. Is that like What, How. What do you rephrase that? What do you make of them? Not, you know, there's. There's different ways you approach a case. It's like, you know, what's the. What's the way that I can have my client win and not necessarily make a larger principled or ideological or, you know, do it on these precepts, like, my job as a lawyer is to win. And it feels like the administration isn't necessarily doing that. Like, what. How do you account for that?

[Matt]

I think this president wants to keep flexing his muscles. He just goes into it headlong. Every time he's offered a question that the answer is, does everybody on US Soil have due process? The answer is an easy yes, but that's not his answer. Does he have to abide by the Constitution? The answer is always an easy yes. He doesn't go there. And when it comes to returning Kilmar Abrego Garcia, this Maryland father who's got little kids waiting for him, just smelling his shirts at night, hoping for his return, such a compelling example of what went wrong in this administration already the President says, yeah, I could get him back. And that, of course, flies in the face of apparently what the DOJ's litigation strategy is, because they've been saying, oh, we can't just order El Salvador to bring him back. But the president just can't help himself, apparently, and has to say, yeah, I could get him back. I have this power because he. He calls himself the big deal maker. And so he wants to be seen as anybody, as the most powerful person in the world. You know, he's. He's putting up AI. Generated images of himself as the Pope. There's something about this guy that's really absolutely clear. He wants to show that he has the power to do everything. At the same time, he's making legal. His administration is making legal arguments about what they can and cannot do.

[Sam Seder]

Well, does that end up implicating these cases? I mean, when the president goes out there and says, yeah, we could get him back, but I don't. I don't want to do it, the next day are ACLU lawyers or other lawyers saying, like, he just said he could do it. Your client just said he could do it.

[Matt]

We're not counsel for Kilmer, Abrego Garcia. The ACLU isn't, but I know that his counsel and all the lawyers in a bunch of cases on behalf of individuals who are sent to El Salvador are going to be making the case that, you know, the president is saying one thing. We also have Secretary Noem in Congress today and later this week and next week also testifying on these same issues. And people are going to be taking a hard look at those statements and seeing what they can do to make sure that the administration faces real consequences for the fact that it not only said Kilmar Abrego Garcia, but more than 100 hundreds of men to El Salvador to a place where we knew that they were likely to be tortured, where they would be harmed. People call this prison one that you will never see the sun again once you go in, and that the only way out of this prison is in a coffin. That should horrify all of us. And of course, we want to see everybody be able to get out of that facility and be returned, including the people who are the ACLU's clients in our case on the Alien Enemies Act, a wartime authority that they used.

[Sam Seder]

Yeah, let's talk about that Alien Enemies Act. Tell us the nature of. I would assume there are multiple cases involving this question. Are there not? Or are you guys working on the, like, primary case as to the validity of his using the Alien Enemies Act? And if so, like, give us the various sort of, like, legal questions and sort of standards that have to be applied. Because I do know, like, the DNI just declassified something that said that Trenta Agua is not run by the Venezuelan government.

[Matt]

Right.

[Sam Seder]

So it seems to me there's a bunch of different questions as to whether he can actually use the Alien Enemies act and then questions on how he can use it. But one of them can be, you know, does he have any. Does he have just like, unlimited authority to declare that we're at war? And then, like, you know, what are the elements that he needs if he doesn't have unlimited authority? So walk us through the case that the ACLU is doing.

[Matt]

Well, the ACLU challenged the invocation of the Alien Enemies Act. Remember, this is a wartime authority. It's only been used in situations of wartime or within days of a war. It's not something that any we've seen presidents just kind of snap their fingers and say, I've decided that there's a gang and they constitute a war threat. And I'm going to use this basically to override law that's been passed by Congress, in this case the Immigration and Nationality act that actually spells out a process for if you want to deport people, here's how you do it. So the ACLU challenged the president's invocation of the Alien Enemies act. And this was just a couple of weeks ago but to remind people, though, what happened was that the President invoked the act. And that wasn't initially public, but the ACLU got wind that people were going to be put on planes and sent out of the country. So we filed extremely quickly in the middle, you know, the early hours of the morning. And what the administration did was even though there were hearings going on and we were before Judge Boasberg and the D.C. district Court, they started, they got people on those planes, and people continue to be on those planes even after the district court judge had said orally and in writing that those planes need to stop, that those people shouldn't be sent to El Salvador. So that raised serious questions about whether or not the administration was following court orders. The ACLU continues our litigation in D.C. here over whether or not the administration violated the court orders when they sent those people out. In the meantime, this case on the question of people being sent out based on the Alien Enemies act has gone all the way up to the Supreme Court. And the Supreme Court has been clear. You have to provide people with notice and an ability to actually file what's called a habeas suit. You can't just spirit people out of the country, essentially. You can't disappear people from the country and then wash your hands of it, which is in many ways what we see happening over and over again with this administration. So now the ACLU and our partners are filing habesuits around the country, from Colorado to Texas to a lot of different parts. My colleagues are in court every other day. It seems like filing and trying to prevent the administration from steamrolling over due process.

[Sam Seder]

Okay, so I'm just, so I'm clear, the there is under the Alien Enemies act, you still need due process. That question. And you're seeking that for all the people who've been subject to that. But then there's the, I guess the upstream question of that, which is can the President evoke this and what are the criteria? And there doesn't seem to be any criteria, at least statutory.

[Matt]

There is criteria statutorily. In fact, in the Southern District of Texas, the Trump appointed judge just ruled that the Insurrection act had not been properly invoked because the administration didn't meet.

[Sam Seder]

That Alien Enemies Act.

[Matt]

Sorry, the Alien Enemies Act. That's right.

[Sam Seder]

It's clear what's on your mind though, what could be coming next. And so tell us about that case. I mean, is that an ACLU case as well? And so that judge in the Southern District of Texas finds that the AEA is not invoked properly because what requirements are necessary to invoke it. And then where does that case go after? Does that, does that apply just to. But that just applies to that area of Texas, correct?

[Matt]

That's right. It applies to only that area of Texas. And look, there's a lot of cases being filed, a lot of cases that the ACLU is arguing. Ultimately, what's at stake here is the question of due process. And is the administration going to continue to try to use the Alien Enemies act to get people out of the country? And of course, they don't need to do this. And this goes back to your question of what are they putting forward in court? Why are they trying so hard when they could take an easier route? They could actually try to deport people pursuant to the Immigration and Nationality Act. They have a lot of authorities there. At the same time they're litigating these cases, they're also seeking $175 billion from Congress to fund deportations and detention operations. So you can see it as really a three pronged approach. They're trying to get as much money as they can so they can build out capacity for mass deportations. They're using all the different legal authorities they can. They're making extreme arguments in court. The Alien Enemies Act, I mentioned, the Insurrection act, that's another one. We're really worried about using authorities, even in the Immigration and Nationality act, to deport people based on speech, as we've also seen with some of our other clients in cases that are ongoing, students who were engaged in the rights to protest and dissent. And then you see the third problem, which is that they're trying to intimidate and coerce any opposition. And that opposition includes state and local law enforcement agencies and state and local governments that don't want to have to contribute to this mass deportation operation. And we see the Trump administration escalating their intimidation tactics. The same Department of Justice that is litigating these cases is also trying to compile a list of so called sanctuary cities and states that they say that they're going to go after as well?

[Emma Viglin]

That was actually going to be my next question about the authority of some of these local officials to protect people. What's your understanding about the Trump administration's arguments when they're trying to go after, say, judges or even politicians in cities that are not giving over information to ICE or to the administration?

[Matt]

Yeah, the states and cities question is really actually pretty basic. It's this. The state and local government officials have to help the Trump administration go after people in their Communities under the 10th Amendment of our Constitution. They do not have to offer up local resources to support a federal program. It's always been the case. It's been the case in so many different contexts that you can't force them, you can't conscript state and local officials against their will. That's part of the 10th Amendment, which is setting up that division, that kind of constitutional balance of powers between the federal government and state and local governments. And so the Trump administration is using lots of legal words, they're using obstruction, they're talking about defiance. But the reality is what they're trying to do is say that state and local governments have to go along with it and have to offer up their own resources and it's settled law, that they do not have to go along with it. They don't have to offer up local taxpayer money, local police, local information, locally held information to the federal government for the federal government's agenda.

[Sam Seder]

And so what are the status of those cases? I mean, is that all? Will those type of cases be resolved? Like, there will there be a time where the, you know, Tom Holman goes, well, okay, I can't get them to do what I want, and so I can't threaten to arrest the mayor of whatever city it is.

[Matt]

You would think so. But I think a lot of what they're doing is smoke and mirrors. They are issuing executive orders, they're issuing memos that are designed to intimidate. And we know that they're legally baseless, and we've called them legally baseless. They're hauling people into court, whether, you know, they're the governor of Illinois or a judge, and they're putting forward arguments that we don't think stand a chance of a good chance of prevailing in any normal environment. They're doing this even though they lost a lot of cases on these same questions in the first Trump administration.

[Sam Seder]

Is there a legal mechanism at one point where they start to pay a price for that? Like, is there some type of, like, anti slap suit, like, you know, analog for a government that keeps trying to intimidate local officials by dragging them into court for on issues that have already been resolved?

[Matt]

No. Ultimately, it's really the other branches of government that need to push back on the administration. And of course, we expect to see that in court orders. I also expect that you're going to see more of that from Congress as members of Congress start to take more notice of how their own jurisdictions are being attacked by this one. Last week, an executive order came out from the Trump administration that says that they're going to publish a list, a list of what they call sanctuary jurisdictions. And once they have that list, they're then going to notify those jurisdictions and say, we're looking at these criminal penalties against you. We're looking to defund you to strip unrelated funds. You know, whether it's for a bus line or for Meals on Wheels program, we're going to strip those unless you start to take part in mass deportations. And I think we're going to see a lot of members of Congress speak up when it's their own city and local government resources and services to their American families that are under attack.

[Sam Seder]

Does the ACLU or are there any sort of entities there that are, like, sending information out to sanctuary cities, to local officials, saying, you're going to get a letter soon. Just want you to know there's no legal basis to this. And if you need some, you know, representation, like, is there. Is there a proactive attempt to sort of edify these local officials? Because I would imagine if I'm a mayor in a small town and I get a letter from the doj, I might be a little bit nervous.

[Matt]

Extremely nervous. And that is their whole plan is to intimidate and make an example out of one or two and then get people to capitulate across the board. And the aclu, we're lucky enough to have affiliates in every state and territories, and many of them are engaged with state and local governments there to inform them of the legally baseless nature of these attacks. I also know that a lot of associations of governors and attorneys general, this is very much top of mind for them. And you're going to see them come out of the woodwork and defend their states, defend their right to make their own decisions. Because today it's immigration, tomorrow it's coming for those same states and cities over health care, and the next day it's coming to them over what they teach in their schools. So this is. This is the Trump administration's playbook. And so people need to be prepared. And I know that they are in many states prepared for this.

[Sam Seder]

What do you know about the data collection that's happening with the CBP app? There seems to be now a push to sort of like. It's almost like akin to what we saw with Doge in trying to get rid of federal employees. They seem to be basically saying, like, you know, carrot and stick, we'll pay you some money to get out of the country. Otherwise we're going to start larding fines on you. And we're going to put you into our database.

[Emma Viglin]

Which is also reminiscent of what they did with the Social Security number program. Right. For the migrants that they're now using against them. The target them.

[Sam Seder]

The enumeration after entry program.

[Emma Viglin]

Yeah.

[Sam Seder]

And that was, and to be clear, that was non citizens, but folks who were in under a visa or some other program, maybe temporary protected status. What do you know about this app in terms of like signing up to be to self deport?

[Matt]

These apps have always been something that we were worried about. We were worried about some of these apps under the Biden administration too, because the potential is always there when you've got something on your phone that is tracking your movements, that is sucking up your data and your personality. Personal information that could be exploited and abused. The CBP1 app is one of them. There's also apps that were run by private prison companies that had spun off into other subsidiaries. And really the entire enterprise of immigration enforcement is blending in with private industry. And one of the big problems with that is that private industry then just is at the beck and call of the government, has none of their own scruples about what they do with their data, may not even see themselves or may not be bound by the law. And we're concerned about how much money is going to become available to those private companies to do not only data collection, but data mining. Use that data to help the administration achieve what it wants, which is in the words of the current acting director of ice, to make deportations like Amazon prime be able to get people out as quickly as you get a package. That is what they want to get to. And so we see all of the data collection and the data analysis as being about increasing their efficiency. The president said before he was elected he wanted to get to 20 million deportations. And we don't even have 20 million people who according to most estimates are undocumented. But 20 million people is an enormous number that no one has matched. And the only way they can achieve that is by self deportation. What they are focused on now with this happening with others, but also just by using information to be able to follow people, find them and deport them swiftly.

[Sam Seder]

And we've seen, I mean this has been ongoing for a decade or two where agencies, law enforcement type and national security agencies that aren't allowed by statute to access certain information, they'll go and just buy it from services that, you know, that can, because they're not law enforcement agencies. And then they just acquire the information through legal means as opposed to going after information. It's just A skirt around the law. Okay, let me just. So what's, what is the next front? I mean, you mentioned, like, we're watching the administration try and intimidate local officials relative to immigration, and I don't think they're going to complete that project. And then before they launch their next one, like, what do you folks at the ACLU anticipate could be the next wave or two that we see from this administration that is an assault on rights of Americans.

[Matt]

Well, their end game is to be able to have much more capacity to do deportations. And also, you know, what starts with immigrants could then impact U.S. citizens. So as an example, the use of the U.S. military. We're seeing Guantanamo used for immigration detention in a way that is unprecedented, taking people from the mainland of the United States. Longtime residents, our neighbors and our loved ones were sent to Guantanamo. And we also saw them, of course, sent to El Salvador. The idea of offshoring prisons is something that should scare us not only when it has to do with non citizens, but the president himself has talked about being able to send the homegrown problem, in his words, potentially US Citizens to be held abroad in prisons where presumably they would try to evade US Constitutional protections or civil rights protections and put people in conditions that might be horrific. And they'll throw around words like terrorist or lunatic. They'll say worst of the worst, but we won't have the judicial process, you know, if they get their way in order to be able to say what really is happening. So that's something I'm really concerned about, the use of the military. We're really concerned about the buildup of the military at the southern border. They're turning parts of Texas and New Mexico into militarized zones where they say that if people step forward on them, they could be subject to trespass. But worried about the U.S. the use of military force in those areas. And there's so much to be concerned about when you're talking about handing over more than $100 billion. It's hard to wrap your head around what would they do with more than $100 billion? They could reshape fundamentally what life is like in this country, not only for immigrants, but for all of us.

[Sam Seder]

And just to reiterate this point, the thing, when they, when they take immigrants to Guantanamo, those immigrants are theoretically afforded the same protections by the Constitution as a citizen. So if they're not getting, if they're not getting due process, for instance, once that precedent is set, you don't need to give people in the country due process, it really doesn't matter whether you're a citizen or not a citizen. Right. Because the due process rights are not if you're a citizen there, if you're in the country. And so once you set the precedent, you don't have to apply those due process rights to someone in the country. It really doesn't matter if you're a citizen or not. I mean, even putting aside the fact, like there's no way to make that determination, often without due process, but in terms of a. Of a precedent, that once you've done it to one person in the country, you've done it to all the people in the country.

[Matt]

Yeah, we see this, you know, every day. You read headlines about people who are being accosted by ICE agents or agents who don't even identify themselves as who they are, who are being treated like less than nothing, who aren't being informed of any of their rights. There was a family in Oklahoma last week that we learned that federal agents showed up at their house. Apparently we're investigating on immigration violations or trafficking, but really terrorized this American family. And when the family said, we're US Citizens, the reporting is that the federal agents just did not care, didn't show any interest in that. And of course, once we see this treatment meted out to people who are non citizens, it's all too easy for that to become something that all of us experience. And many of us, of course, are in families ourselves where our parents, our siblings, our children don't have that certain immigration status. And so we are thinking about our own family members and our own situations with a lot of uncertainty now, indeed.

[Sam Seder]

Noreen Shah, human rights lawyer, Deputy Director of Government Affairs, Equality Division at the aclu. Thank you so much for your time. Really appreciate it.

[Matt]

Thanks, Sam. Thanks, Emma.

[Emma Viglin]

Thank you.

[Sam Seder]

All right, folks, gonna take a quick break, and then we're heading to the fun half of the program. Your support, right? It's like a show on the road. Pause. Yeah. Listen, the long pauses, everybody. Well, the people listen to the show at one time, one and a half times speed. And so you got to sometimes have that long pause to get a short pause. Just a reminder to your support that makes this show possible. You can become a member of the Majority Report by going to jointhemajorityreport.com when you do, you not only get the free show free of commercials, but you also get the fun half. And you also help this show survive and thrive during a rather tumultuous time. Also, don't forget just coffee. Just coffee.co op, fair trade coffee, hot chocolate. Use the coupon code. A majority get 10% off. They got majority report blend. They got all sorts of different single origin coffees. They got all sorts of blends but check them out. Great place to get your coffee. Co op. Very supportive of their farmers and just a great bunch of folks. The oldest sponsor of this program, so check them out. Matt Left Reckoning.

[Noreen Shah]

Yeah, Left Reckoning. Tonight, excited to have on Alex Skopik. He's an editor and a writer over at Current Affairs, One of my favorite magazine writers he has. We're going to talk about three of his pieces. One about how America deals with its billionaires and how Trump is a landlord. Another about how China knows how to deal with its billionaires. And another piece that I think is one of the best of the past year, which he called Nazis on aisle nine, which goes into the corporate collaboration with the Nazis. The IBM story that everyone knows about, but it goes much broader than that and I think it was really timely to come out last fall. So excited to talk to him tonight. Patreon.com left recording gonna be at 7:00.

[Sam Seder]

Eastern Time and just got a. I am 1/8 of CUNY 8, CUNY 8, which are eight students who arrested during an encampment, a Gaza solidarity encampment at CUNY City College of New York. And they're I guess in court. 9:30am Columbus maybe. Oh, it's 9:30am Columbia Park. Must be. That's not the court, but that's got to be where the rally is or something. So check it out. Columbus park even sure where, where it was. Columbus park. Is that up a. I don't know where Columbus park is. That's why I thought maybe that was a.

[Emma Viglin]

By Columbus Circle maybe. But why would, why would. No, Central park is right there.

[Sam Seder]

Columbus Park, Mulberry street and Baxter Street. Okay.

[Emma Viglin]

So downtown.

[Sam Seder]

Yep.

[Noreen Shah]

That's right by Chinatown. Okay.

[Emma Viglin]

Oh, so it's right by. This is, it's by City Hall.

[Sam Seder]

Well, that's where the courthouse is.

[Emma Viglin]

There's a lot of demonstrations there.

[Sam Seder]

Yep.

[Emma Viglin]

Yeah.

[Sam Seder]

So check that out. 9:30am I know that's where the courthouse is. I, I had one or two occasions to be in there, but it was.

[Noreen Shah]

Is that the one where Trump went and all the Republicans went to wait outside to support him like a year.

[Sam Seder]

Or two ago maybe on the other side. There's a lot, a couple of courthouses there.

[Emma Viglin]

I used to cover a lot of protests there back in the day.

[Sam Seder]

Back in the day I had to visit there because of public urination and also possession.

[Emma Viglin]

You and Matt have that in common.

[Sam Seder]

I didn't know.

[Noreen Shah]

My first week in New York, I didn't even live here yet. I got busted for.

[Sam Seder]

I know. I was a country boy, too.

[Noreen Shah]

Here's the thing. I got buzzed for public urination for peeing in an outhouse that was on a construction site. That's not.

[Sam Seder]

That's where I did it. At a construction site, too.

[Emma Viglin]

Are you guys serious?

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Emma Viglin]

Well, that's beautiful, you two coming together. It's almost like you're star crossed urination lovers.

[Noreen Shah]

And I was sitting in the. As I was sitting in the back of the police car getting written up for that. Got a lecture because they asked me what I was doing in New York. I'm like, I'm going to NYU this, this fall. And she said, don't kill yourself. And it's like. Because they had to, I guess besides that library.

[Emma Viglin]

Yeah, sorry.

[Noreen Shah]

It was a very weird like.

[Emma Viglin]

Yeah, yeah.

[Noreen Shah]

That was my introduction to New York police officer.

[Sam Seder]

I got busted for running a red light too, on my bike. So three times. That was it. I had to go down.

[Emma Viglin]

All right, your mic's off.

[Sam Seder]

I was at that courthouse. On a more wholesome note. Or I got married. Oh, all right.

[Emma Viglin]

That is way more wholesome.

[Noreen Shah]

No, you're a nation.

[Sam Seder]

It all goes down there in that area. All right, folks, see you in the fun half. Three months from now, six months from now, nine months from now. And I don't think it's going to be the same as it looks like in six months from now. And I don't know if it's necessarily going to be better six months from now than it is three months from now, but I think around 18 months out, we're going to look back and go like, wow. What? What is that going on? It's nuts. Wait a second. Hold on. Hold on for a second. Emma, welcome to the program. Matt. What is up, everyone? Fun half. No, McKee, you did it. Fun half.

[Emma Viglin]

Let's go, Brandon.

[Sam Seder]

Let's go, Brandon. Bradley, you want to say hello?

[Noreen Shah]

Sorry to disappoint everyone. I'm just a random guy.

[Sam Seder]

It's all the boys today.

[Matt]

Fundamentally false.

[Emma Viglin]

No, I'm sorry. Women.

[Sam Seder]

Stop talking for a second. Let me finish.

[Emma Viglin]

Where is this coming from, dude?

[Sam Seder]

But dude, you want to smoke his 7A? Yes.

[Matt]

Hi.

[Sam Seder]

Me?

[Matt]

Is it?

[Sam Seder]

Yes. Is this me? Is it me? It is you. Is this me?

[Matt]

Hello?

[Sam Seder]

It's me. I think it is you.

[Emma Viglin]

Who is you?

[Sam Seder]

No sound every single freaking day. What's on your mind? We can discuss free markets and we can discuss capitalism. I'm gonna go Skyline Libertarians. They're so stupid. Though common sense says of course.

[Emma Viglin]

Gobbledygook.

[Sam Seder]

We nailed him.

[Emma Viglin]

So what's 79 plus 21?

[Sam Seder]

Challenge. Matt, I'm positively quivering. I believe 96. I want to say. 857-210-35. 5011-half. 3 8, 9 11.

[Emma Viglin]

$3,400. $1900. 5 4.

[Sam Seder]

$3 trillion.

[Matt]

Sold.

[Sam Seder]

It's a zero sum game.

[Matt]

Actually.

[Emma Viglin]

You're making me think less.

[Sam Seder]

But let me say this. You call it satire. Sam goes satire on top of it all. My favorite part about you is just like every day, all day, like everything you do. Without a doubt. Hey, buddy. We see you. Right, folks, Folks, folks.

[Emma Viglin]

It's just the week being weeded out.

[Matt]

Obviously.

[Sam Seder]

Yeah. Sundial guns out. I, I, I don't know.

[Emma Viglin]

But you should know, people just don't.

[Noreen Shah]

Like to entertain ideas anymore.

[Sam Seder]

I have a question. Who cares?

[Noreen Shah]

Our chat is enabled.

[Sam Seder]

Folks. Love it.

[Emma Viglin]

I do love that.

[Sam Seder]

Gotta jump. Gotta be quick. I gotta jump. I'm losing it, bro. 2:00, we're already late and the guy's being a dick. So screw him. Sent to a gula.

[Emma Viglin]

Outrageous.

[Sam Seder]

Like, what is wrong with you?

[Matt]

Love you. Bye.

[Sam Seder]

Love you.

[Matt]

Bye.