2496 - Trump Cashes In On US-Middle East 'Diplomacy' w/ Jeremy Scahill

Summary

Summary of "The Majority Report with Sam Seder" Episode 2496 Title: Trump Cashes In On US-Middle East 'Diplomacy'
Host: Sam Seder
Guest: Jeremy Scahill
Release Date: May 13, 2025

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Introduction

In Episode 2496 of The Majority Report with Sam Seder, host Sam Seder delves into the intricate dynamics of U.S. diplomacy in the Middle East, particularly focusing on former President Donald Trump's recent maneuvers. The episode features an in-depth conversation with Jeremy Scahill, an investigative reporter and war correspondent, who shares insights from his exclusive interviews with senior Hamas leaders. The discussion navigates through Trump's controversial $400 million jet deal from Qatar, the evolving role of Saudi Arabia, and the complexities surrounding hostage negotiations.

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Jeremy Scahill’s Exclusive Interview with Hamas Leadership

[22:37] Jeremy Scahill: "Much of western media coverage of wars in general is both literally and psychologically embedded journalism..."

Jeremy Scahill begins by addressing the scarcity of direct communications between Western journalists and Hamas leaders. He emphasizes the importance of providing a platform for Palestinian voices to present their perspectives, countering the prevalent narrative that often equates Hamas with groups like ISIS or Al-Qaeda. Scahill recounts his 90-minute English-language interview with Osama Hamdan, a senior Hamas official, highlighting the nuanced viewpoints that challenge mainstream portrayals.

Key Points:

• Embedded Journalism Flaws: Traditional media often prioritizes narratives from dominant powers, neglecting the perspectives of those directly affected.
• Hamas vs. Other Terrorist Groups: Scahill clarifies that Hamas operates primarily within Palestinian territories, unlike ISIS or Al-Qaeda, which have a broader global agenda.
• Political Dynamics: The internal Palestinian governance struggles, particularly between Hamas in Gaza and Fatah in the West Bank, contribute to the complexity of peace negotiations.

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Trump’s Middle East Diplomacy and Qatar's Involvement

[43:31] Jeremy Scahill: "Most of Hamas's weapons are domestically manufactured by engineering cores in Gaza..."

The discussion shifts to Donald Trump's unconventional approach to Middle East diplomacy. Scahill critiques Trump's transactional style, suggesting that his desire for financial gains may inadvertently create opportunities for resolving long-standing conflicts. The $400 million jet deal with Qatar is examined as a symbol of Trump's willingness to engage directly with Middle Eastern powers outside traditional diplomatic channels.

Notable Quotes:

• Scahill on Trump's Deals: "Trump wants a lot of these investments in this country. No reporting as of yet how much stake Trump family has in all these things that Saudi Arabia is investing in. But I will bet a lot of..."
• Discussion of Saudi Normalization: "If the Saudis were to normalize with Israel and to not insist that a Palestinian state be part of the deal, this would have been the most significant blow to the Palestinian cause..."

Key Points:

• Direct Negotiations: Trump's appointment of Adam Bowler, a personal friend and college roommate of Jared Kushner, as the special hostage envoy, signifies a departure from conventional diplomatic practices.
• Saudi Arabia's Strategic Position: Normalization between Saudi Arabia and Israel, if not tied to Palestinian statehood, could significantly weaken Palestinian bargaining power.
• Qatar's Mediation Role: Qatar's provision of the jet and its dual relations with Hamas and Israel position it as a key player in brokering potential ceasefires.

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Republican Policies on SNAP Benefits and Tax Cuts

[11:30] Sam Seder: "Republicans are negotiating how they're going to take money from low-income Americans..."

The episode also critiques recent Republican-led legislative efforts aimed at reducing support for low-income Americans while simultaneously providing tax breaks for the wealthy. Seder and Matt Binder analyze the implications of proposed changes to the Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program (SNAP) and the broader impact of tax cuts favoring affluent individuals and corporations.

Key Points:

• SALT Deduction Changes: The proposed bill maintains a $30,000 State and Local Tax (SALT) deduction, which disproportionately benefits the wealthy.
• Impact on SNAP: Restrictions on SNAP benefits during economic crises could exacerbate food insecurity among vulnerable populations.
• Economic Redistribution: The bill is viewed as a regressive measure that undermines economic stability for the lower and middle classes while bolstering financial incentives for the rich.

Notable Quotes:

• Sam Seder on SNAP: "They're taking away the economic stabilizer aspect of SNAP. And then they're also saying that people who are in the probably most difficult 10 years of their life to find work, they can't get food assistance unless they work 20 hours a week."
• Matt Binder on Tax Cuts: "This is the same cohort of people who are most affected by Trump's tariffs... It functions as a regressive tax."

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Analysis and Insights

Throughout the episode, Sam Seder and Jeremy Scahill provide a critical examination of the intersection between U.S. politics and Middle Eastern diplomacy. The conversation underscores the complexities of negotiating peace and the potential unintended consequences of unilateral policy decisions.

Key Insights:

• Transactional Diplomacy Risks: Trump's deal-making approach may offer unconventional avenues for conflict resolution but also risks entangling personal financial interests with national policy.
• Media Representation: The lack of diverse perspectives in mainstream media contributes to a one-dimensional understanding of conflicts, making Scahill's interviews pivotal for a more comprehensive view.
• Internal Palestinian Politics: The division between Hamas and Fatah remains a significant barrier to unified Palestinian representation, complicating peace efforts.

Notable Quotes:

• Jeremy Scahill on Media Bias: "The US Portrayal of Hamas as akin to ISIS is so far from the truth."
• Sam Seder on Policy Impact: "House Republicans want seniors to work to qualify for food stamps and propose a $5 billion to subsidize private and religious schools."

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Conclusion

Episode 2496 of The Majority Report offers a multifaceted exploration of current U.S. Middle East policies, the potential for unconventional diplomatic solutions, and the broader socio-political implications of these actions. Jeremy Scahill's exclusive interviews with Hamas leaders provide valuable insights that challenge prevailing narratives, while the critique of Republican policies highlights ongoing struggles within domestic welfare programs. The episode encourages listeners to consider the nuanced realities behind political decisions and media portrayals, advocating for a more informed and balanced understanding of complex international relations.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps:

• Jeremy Scahill [22:37]: "Much of western media coverage of wars in general is both literally and psychologically embedded journalism..."
• Sam Seder [13:12]: "From an economic standpoint, you're also telling the grocery stores you're not getting food that would feed those people."
• Matt Binder [14:48]: "I think Trump has this transactional element to him where there's some hope here..."
• Jeremy Scahill [70:14]: "So what happened is that since those meetings with Bowler, Hamas has said that they're interested in freeing Idan Alexander..."
• Sam Seder [79:31]: "We'll have Jeremy back on sometime, I would imagine relatively soon."

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Note: This summary excludes sponsorship segments, casual banter, and non-content discussions to focus solely on the episode's substantive topics.

Transcript

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[Matt Binder]

That makes me feel so warm and fuzzy inside.

[Sam Cedar]

Actually that's exactly what happens when you swim in feces.

[Matt Binder]

It's the parasitic that affected me.

[Sam Cedar]

House tuck, house tax cut rich for house tax cuts for the rich. Bill as of now provides a $30,000 SALT deduction and destroys tax incentives for green energy and increases the debt by 3.7 trillion. They're working it out. All this and more on today's Majority Report. Welcome ladies and gentlemen.

[Matt Binder]

It is typically Newsday Tuesday, although today.

[Sam Cedar]

We have long and really fascinating interview that we did with Jeremy Scahill. We just had to do it a little bit. We again finished recording it literally about 20 minutes ago.

[Matt Binder]

Worth breaking format for Jeremy in general but specifically this topic because he was able to interview Hamas and it's we should people should encourage or we should encourage people to check out that interview without a doubt interview.

[Sam Cedar]

Watch this. You will want to go and hear this. I mean and I can tell you that I don't think I've ever seen a 90 minute English language interview with any Hamas leader ever. It was fascinating.

[Emma Vigland]

I also appreciate Jeremy's ethics on treating audiences like adults because this entire conversation is insanely infantile this entire time. And it's nice to have drop site someplace that will treat people as if they are upright citizens in a democracy.

[Matt Binder]

Exactly.

[Sam Cedar]

And meanwhile Donald Trump and we touch on this dynamic that is going on with Trump in the Middle east right now. He is in Saudi Arabia and just made a deal. Not exactly sure what the super says it. Well, one of the things we're going to do is the Saudis are going to put a bunch of money in this country and help us build. AI Trump wants a lot of these investments in this country. No reporting as of yet how much stake Trump family has in all these things that Saudi Arabia is investing in. But I will bet a lot of, I will vet bet well, I'll bet my college, my kids college fund. Well, well, you know, he's got time, he's got time for that to grow. Let's put it this way, so we're not quite there yet, but that some of these industries there is a Trump ally. There's, this is so rife with opportunity for kickbacks it's impossible to imagine. Meanwhile, he's getting a lot of heat about the $400 million jet from Qatar. Although when you listen to this Jeremy Scahill interview, you may be a little bit more inclined to be like, well if it brings about some form of end to the genocide that's going on in Israel, maybe it's a decent deal. Or Gaza, I should say pork barrel. But meanwhile, how do you know that Donald Trump is in Saudi Arabia? Well, of course there's all sorts of like security that has to happen there. They bring in all sorts of. And then they also bring in this 18 wheeler, a mobile McDonald's. Oh my God, there it is.

[Emma Vigland]

So foreign affairs journalist Olga Nesterova with the footage here.

[Sam Cedar]

Yeah.

[Matt Binder]

I mean, isn't that the most beautiful thing you've ever seen?

[Sam Cedar]

Question. Why don't I have one of these following me around?

[Emma Vigland]

And guess what? The McFlurry machine was working.

[Matt Binder]

I always read about an oasis in the desert, but I didn't know that it would be the golden arches. Is that a mirage beckoning me home?

[Sam Cedar]

Oh, I mean it's not like he's going in it. It's literally like they just have it on there so that, that at any moment they can bring him McDonald's.

[Matt Binder]

Oh, I mean come on. He needs the, he needs that energy if he's going to be making deals. They, they also struck a deal with Nvidia Saudi Arabia did, I think for like tens of thousands of dollars of their chips they're trying to keep China out of that market.

[Emma Vigland]

Good luck cooling AI chips in Saudi Arabia.

[Matt Binder]

But okay, well, it's going to be very energy intensive. I think they should send this truck to, to, to, to the outskirts of Gaza, or to have Palestinian negotiators greet him with this kind of thing because.

[Sam Cedar]

Like, they won't let McDonald's in one.

[Matt Binder]

Democratic state if, if they're going to be transactional. I want some transactions on our side.

[Sam Cedar]

Meanwhile, also, I just wanted to give you a heads up on what's happening. As you know, the Republicans are negotiating within themselves how they're going to go about taking money from low income Americans, older Americans, Americans who want to fight climate change. I mean, the list goes on and on to give money to wealthy people. The upward redistribution bill is winding its way through the Republican House. This is their plan to save money on the SNAP program, which is the Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program. That is, in other words, a couple hundred bucks a month to provide money, or I should say, coupons to people to be able to buy food. And they figured out an interesting place. There are a lot of apparently freeloaders who are trying to get access to SNAP benefits. The House Agricultural Committee proposal would a restrict future increases to SNAP benefits that outplace inflation and would narrow the ability of states to waive work requirements during periods of high unemployment. So in other words, when we have a financial crisis like we did in 2008, or when Covid happens, states can get a waiver to expand their SNAP rolls. It is called an automatic stabilizer because it kicks in without having to have new legislation, essentially as it exists now in the event that there's some type of major economic crisis and people can't eat like 2008, like 2008 or Covid. And and so they want to inhibit that ability for states to get that automatic increase in economic stabilizer. And then the other one is that as it is now, you must work 80 hours if you do not have a child or a disability, 80 hours per month up to the age of 54 to be eligible for SNAP benefits. Now, I mean, presumably part of the reason why you might need food assistance is because you don't have work. But we just don't want any freeloaders getting, you know, a couple of bucks of free food a week. And now they want to hike that limit from 54 up to age 64. Now, I want you to contemplate this. If you have anybody who, you know, that is about my age, actually a couple of years younger, they lose their job. Let's say during a financial crisis or during COVID or just in general, it is very difficult for people to find another job. That's just the case. And particularly during times of crisis. So you're taking away the economic stabilizer aspect of snap. And then you're also saying that people who are in the probably most difficult 10 years of their life to find work, they can't get food assistance unless they work 20 hours a week.

[Emma Vigland]

And from an economic standpoint, you're also telling the grocery stores you're not getting food that would feed those people.

[Sam Cedar]

Yep.

[Matt Binder]

Well, there's already all those restrictions on whether it be hot or cold. I mean, it's an. That's crazy in and of itself. But the. This is also the same cohort of people who are most affected by Trump's tariffs. Not. Not, of course, it's the lower income that you are. It's a regressive. It functions as a regressive tax. So I'm not talking about an economic cohort, an age cohort. These are. This is the same age cohort that was most affected by the financial crash of 2008, in many ways with their retirement plans.

[Sam Cedar]

Because.

[Matt Binder]

Because it doesn't have the op. If you have a 401k or if you have a pension plan that's tied up and, I don't know, some of some of these other risky stocks, it doesn't have the capacity to dip back up and regain its value in time for you to retire. So this is a double whammy for this particular age group.

[Sam Cedar]

Oh, it's horrible. I mean, it's sick, it's twisted, but gotta get those tax cuts for wealthy people. In a moment, we're going to be talking to Jeremy Scahill, investigative reporter, war correspondent, co founder of Drop Site News, about his interviews with the senior leadership of Hamas. First, a couple of words from our sponsor. I've told the story about a million times at this point, but several years ago, I started taking neutrophil that we had around the office because they had asked a sponsor at the time. Nobody wanted to take it. But, you know, I'm getting up there and, you know, notice a little thinning. And then I heard stories when you came on board, Emma, about your friend.

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[Jeremy Scahill]

Thank you both for having me back.

[Sam Cedar]

So you just, I guess it was about a week or two ago published an interview you had with USAF Hamdan, the, the one of Hamas's leaders. And it is, it is a stunning thing. I have to just say right up front. I want to ask you, you know, what your idea was behind it. But it is stunning for Americans, for English speakers to be able to watch something like this because it is so rare that we who are following what's happening with the assault and genocide and ethnic cleansing in Gaza to hear from directly from any Hamas nevermind spokesperson but leader in, in such a fashion. I mean, you know, I mean starting around October 8th, I, it was almost impossible as an American not to know the names of about a half a dozen Israeli spokespeople. And, and you know, at that time in particular like there's not a single Palestinian never mind someone from Hamas. What just tell us what your thinking is as a journalist in covering this. I mean I think it's somewhat obvious but, but reiterate that for us.

[Jeremy Scahill]

Yeah, I mean one way of thinking about it Sam, is is that, you know, much of western media coverage of wars in general is Both literally and psychologically embedded journalism that it's, you know, it's, you're often embedded with the forces of the occupier or the invading force, whether it's the United States or Israel. And this is a very common dynamic. But also there's a psychological embedding that takes place where journalists often prioritize overwhelmingly the narrative of whether it's the United States or Israel. And this is journalistic malpractice, not to go to the other side of the barrel of the gun that is pointed at other nations or people around the world and say, you know, let's actually talk to those people, let's understand their perspective. So, you know, throughout my 25 years in journalism, a lot of what I've done is gone to countries where the United States is engaged in a military action or a war and talked to the people living under the bombs. And that often includes then talking to people like Al Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula in Yemen or the Taliban in Afghanistan or Al Shabaab in Somalia. And I've done all of that in this particular war against the Palestinians of Gaza. The Israelis have prevented any international journalists from entering Gaza. And so the only responsible journalistic practice, in my view, to try to counter or to counterbalance the propaganda coming from the US And Israeli side is to work with Palestinian journalists on the ground in Gaza so you can get actual reporting from the ground, not just opinions, but also talk to the officials from the organization that the United States and Israel have compared to the Nazis have said are terrorists in the vein of ISIS and Al Qaeda, and to fact check the allegations of the powerful, but also understand what is their motivation. And when you do that and when you give a space for people to actually hear their perspective, then you understand that there's a lot more nuance to the story than you've been shown. And I'll say that, you know, as someone who's also monitoring media coverage, it's not that officials from Hamas, including Osama Hamdan, who I interviewed, are never on Western media. CNN has people from Hamas on occasionally. The New York Times interviews people from Hamas occasionally. But often what happens is it's just a relitigation of the events of October 7, where the same exact questions are asked over and over and over again. And so what I wanted to do was say, let's treat our audience as smart people and let's sit down and have an in depth. In this particular case, it was a 90 minute conversation in English with a leader of Hamas who's been in the organization since its very early stages. He became a member of Hamas in 1992. He's a chemist by training, and he served as Hamas chief in Lebanon, in Iran, and as the head of its international relations division. And he was one of two senior Hamas officials that met directly with Adam Bowler in those direct talks that took place and was involved with the recent deal that resulted in the release of Idan Alexander, an American citizen who served in the Israeli army and was taken prisoner by Palestinian fighters on October 7 while in an Israeli military uniform as an active duty soldier.

[Sam Cedar]

And I want to get to his release in a moment, but let's go back, I guess, more broadly. How did you find him? Because, like you say, the perspective that we have on Hamas in this country is they're designated a terrorist group by the United States. All its leaders are on the terrorist watch thing, and we are just told that it's impossible to have conversations. There's no, they want the death of their, of Palestinians, et cetera, et cetera. What was your perspective, you know, when.

[Jeremy Scahill]

We launched Dropsite News in July of 2024? We're coming up on one year of publishing at Dropsite. So the first stories that we did were a series of stories where I interviewed officials from Hamas and Palestinian Islamic Jihad. You know, I've been working as a journalist in the Middle east for much of my adult life and, you know, have contacts. And so, you know, the. The act of, like, how do you get in touch with them? Was not necessarily the most, you know, difficult part of this. But we're operating in an environment where Donald Trump is clearly trying to expand the laws on what constitutes material support for terrorism, is going after nonprofit news organizations. And so when you try to do your job as a journalist, and it involves talking to people who are designated by the US State Department as terrorists, and I've interviewed multiple people who are State Department designated, then you really are committing an act of journalism that this White House does not want you to engage in, which is ironic, given that they're engaged in direct talk, literally, with the very people that I was speaking with. But, you know, I think that to put it in a broader historical context, Palestinians have been so broadly dehumanized, and the Palestine exception is so ferocious, and the portrayal of Hamas, we can have a discussion about what are Hamas politics, both locally in Gaza and, you know, their broader view of the world. But to compare Hamas to ISIS or Hamas to Al Qaeda is such a fallacy and a lie that it is risible, that it is utterly ridiculous. Hamas has never conducted an operation outside of the borders of historic Palestine of what it considers to be the territory that it is fighting to liberate. It's not going and blowing up aircraft. It's not attacking US Embassies abroad. In fact, I've had multiple Hamas officials say to me, we have no problem whatsoever with the United States outside of the context of its support for an apartheid colonial regime that is seeking to just permanently occupy us. So we should have an honest and open discussion about Hamas. But let's get the historical facts right. Let's set Palestinian armed resistance in a proper context. So I don't even bother to take on the lies or the propaganda that is thrown at anyone who dares to speak with them, because I think that you're then playing their game. Our readers, the viewers of this show, are smart enough, have independent enough minds where you can provide them with an opportunity to hear a voice, and they make their own assessment of what they think of what that person is saying.

[Matt Binder]

And can you, can you expand a little bit on that history of Hamas and how they differ from those other groups that you mentioned? Because frankly, that flattening is just Islamophobia that a lot of the Western press relies on. Because in part, there's no Western journalists in Gaza. Israel has blocked it. And they're killing at a record pace the journalists that are in, in Gaza. And they're basically saying that they're associated with Hamas, so you can't trust them. It's a way to block out, I think, all information until they can continue the genocide. So they can continue the genocide. But there's this overall, a flattening of Hamas's role in Gaza, where they are in part a governmental organization. They were of course, involved in the October 7 attacks and orchestrated them. But what is their role in, or what has been their role in society in Gaza? And how do those differentiations look?

[Jeremy Scahill]

I mean, to back up a little bit before, a large segment of the Palestinian armed resistance prior to the 1980s was sort of secular and left wing in orientation. And some of the groups that form the core of the Palestine Liberation Organization, or Palestinian resistance in the 60s and 70s are still very active. And some of them as second tier or second wave participants, also engaged in the October 7 operations that are known in Arabic as Operation Al Aqsa. Flood. And Hamas grew out of a transitional period where the Israelis really used extreme force against the Palestinian resistance in historic Palestine, exiled many of the leaders and activists who were part of these organizations to Lebanon and elsewhere, and in exiling Them, they had Palestinians in camps along with Lebanese resistance fighters, Iranian resistance fighters. You had the Muslim Brotherhood rising up in Egypt against the secular government in Cairo. So you had these very heady times in the late 1970s, early 1980s, and then stretching to the mid-1980s, where all these ideas were swirling around among Palestinians of different factions. And you started to have a real discussion of what is the relationship between Islam as a religion and the politics of Palestinian liberation. And out of that discourse rose groups like Hamas, which originally was sort of an offshoot of the Egyptian Muslim Brotherhood, but later became its own standalone entity quite quickly. And you had Palestinian Islamic Jihad as well. And so Hamas formed as an Islamic resistance movement that was combining Islamic principles with the traditional politics of Palestinian resistance. And it was very controversial in the 2006 elections in Palestine among Islamic resistance forces that Hamas decided to stand for the elections. And the leader of the party at the time was Ismail Haniyeh, who was assassinated last summer in Tehran, Iran, by Israel when he went to attend the inauguration of the new Iranian president. Israel assassinated him. He was also the chief negotiator for the Palestinian side. So Hamas wins the elections. They defeat the preferred US candidates, not just in Gaza, but in all Palestinian territories. So Ismail Haniyeh from Hamas, the Islamic resistance movement, was supposed to be, according to the democratic process, the Prime Minister of Palestine. Well, the United States went, and Israel, of course, went nuts about this. The US and other Western countries say we have to impose sanctions. The wrong people won the free and fair election. So Israel then imposes a blockade and Hamas has a civil war in 2007 with Fatah, the party of Mahmoud Abbas, the 89 year old head of the Palestinian Authority, whose popularity in Palestine is lower than Sam's, as the. As who do people want to be in charge of Palestine? Sorry, Sam.

[Matt Binder]

Very fair.

[Jeremy Scahill]

There was a civil war and essentially what happened is that Mahmoud Abbas consolidated his control of the occupied west bank and Fatah was the dominant political force there. And then Hamas becomes the government and dominant political force of Gaza, Even though roughly 50% of people in Gaza did not vote for Hamas. This is an important fact to remember. And if you look, I've read opinion polls over the years as a government, people had the same gripes about Hamas that, that people in New York have about trash collection or humans anywhere. We always have to remember this because it's never allowed Palestinians have the same issues we have about their government. Not everything is, oh my God, do we want Hamas to be attacking Israel? Do we believe in armed resistance? Basic Things are we paid on time? Are people picking up the trash? Are our schools okay? So those kind of governance issues Hamas has had to deal with since 2006. And because there have been no other elections allowed, Hamas has now just been the government for all this time without ever having to go to the ballot box again. And Israel is constantly bombing, tightening the siege in the lead up to October 7th. And you know, from my conversations with people from Hamas and Islamic Jihad, they're watching a number of factors. They're watching the Saudis get closer to normalizing relations with Israel. They watched what happened under the first Trump administration. Israel was tightening the blockade even further. You had increased attacks against Al Aqsa Mosque, one of the holiest sites in Islam and the holiest site of Islam in historic Palestine. And you also had a lot of pressure internally in Gaza that the status quo was getting worse and worse, that things were crumbling, people were irritated with Hamas as a government. So all of these factors and a sense that there had to be a calling of the question on Israel or else the Palestinians would be subjected to a slow death, led to the decision to launch the October 7th attacks. And so now we have a situation where Israel had a well oiled propaganda machine. They come out of the gates and they're saying, Hamas is Daesh, Hamas is isis, Hamas is Al Qaeda, Hamas is representing a threat to the entire world. And the narrative was completely riddled with outright falsehoods and lies to manufacture the consent for what would become the zenith moment of Netanyahu's career, which was always about the annihilation of the Palestinians as a people and the removal of them from their land.

[Sam Cedar]

All right, I just want to fill in a couple of things because I think the misunderstanding as to what Hamas is, aside from how they've been designated by, by the United States as a terrorist organization. Like you say, they've been in the business of trash collection, of governance. So, I mean, there is a much broader portfolio they have than just being an armed militancy. Should also say that my understanding, and I wonder, you know, I don't know how much of this you have gotten into in these conversations, but I imagine over the years that the Muslim Brotherhood's perspective was essentially, you know, as a Reader's Digest version, that you start with a certain piousness as a Muslim and that will bring about liberation for the Palestinian people. And Hamas inverted that and said, we first must liberate the Palestinian people and then we will be able to attain a certain level of piousness within the context of Islam. And the. The following. The elections. In the elections, if I remember correctly, and I think you and I were probably having conversations about Iraq at the time. Was a function of the. Was a unilateral decision by the Israelis. And, and to some extent, you know, with encouragement from the Bush administration because they thought that it would disempower Hamas. And the. The absolute wrong thing happened because the whole development of Hamas was helped by the Israelis to create a conflict within the Palestinian society so that there was no single voice in which they had to negotiate with, so that they could argue with. We have no partner for peace because these, you know, the Palestinian people can't get even. Get on the same page. And that was like, why we saw the rise of Fatah at that moment, because Israel sort of like, pumped the brakes and then it sort of did a fallback position.

[Jeremy Scahill]

Yeah, I mean, there's a lot to unpack there. I mean, first, you're correct that we have to remember, and it's often. It's so crazy that this is true, but Hamas is often spoken about as though their foreigners that came into Gaza, as though they're not. As though the organization itself, in all of its layers, is not comprised of people that grew up in the concentration camp of Gaza themselves, whose families were expelled during the nakba beginning in 1948, or that Palestinians view them as somehow separate from the fabric of Palestinian life or discourse. And Hamas primarily views itself as a national liberation movement. It doesn't primarily view. It doesn't view itself as we're going to establish the caliphate. Hamas is an Islamic resistance movement. And the emphasis is on the word resistance. And while everyone uses the word Hamas like it's Kleenex to describe every single group, there were more than half a dozen armed factions that participated in one way or another in the October 7 attacks. And some of them are Christian in their religious confession, some are Muslims, some are secular, some are religious. You know, Hamas also has the Al Qassam Brigades, which is its armed wing. And while there is influence from the political leadership of Hamas, and so far, when the political leadership has signed a ceasefire or a truce deal, Al Qassam Brigades have respected that. But there is autonomy. There is quite a bit of evidence to suggest that most of Hamas's political leadership, with the exception of Yahya Sinwar, the late political head of Hamas, who was widely believed to be the kind of intellectual mastermind of October 7, that very few of the members of the political leadership of Hamas knew in advance that this was going to happen or when it was going to happen. I bring that up because the US Narrative is so often filled with oversimplifications or inaccuracies, not to mention the Israeli narrative, which is outright propaganda and total lies. But the US Portrayal of Hamas as akin to ISIS is so far from the truth. And the fact of the matter is that armed resistance and the right to armed resistance remains one of the single highest policy positions among all Palestinians, not just in Gaza, but throughout the west bank and those that live in what's called 48 territory, Palestinians who live within what currently constitutes the State of Israel.

[Matt Binder]

Can you speak a little bit more about that armed resistance and how the Abraham Accords crossing over from the Trump administration to being continued under the Biden administration affected Hamas's decision to stage the October 7th attacks. And if you could even put that even into further context, into what their armed resistance is even capable of when you compare it to, say, the Israelis, you know, there's no air force, their military capabilities are limited by design because of Israel's blockade. But why Saudi normalization would be such a threat to them because of that complete gap in firepower, basically, with the Israelis.

[Jeremy Scahill]

Yeah, very. I mean, good questions. And I should say, you know, while I have interviewed many Hamas officials about the question that you're asking me, I don't feel like I have a clear enough sense of what the actual truth is. I can share with you vignettes or things that I've heard, but I want to make clear I'm not here offering the definitive history of Hamas's perspective or motivations for October 7th. But having said that, I'll share with you some of what I do understand. I think the issue of Saudi Arabia was this, that you had all of these, let's say, lesser important countries to the geopolitical situation between Israel and Palestine that had normalized, that were not considered to be a huge problem for the Palestinians because they didn't really carry much weight. In the case of Saudi Arabia, this would be by far the most powerful economically and otherwise nation, Arab nation, to normalize with Israel since the decades ago when Egypt and Jordan both entered into their peace agreements with Israel. So if the Saudis were to normalize with Israel and to not insist that a Palestinian state be part of the deal, this would have been the most significant blow to the Palestinian cause delivered by the decisions of an Arab ruler in many, many decades. And I don't think we can understate how significant that would have been because the Saudis understand that both Israel and the United States desperately want Saudi Arabia to normalize with Israel. So if the Saudis were to take that off the table, then you would essentially have an entirely incapacitated Arab, broader Arab nation with no ability whatsoever to influence the position of the United States, not to mention Israel. So I think in a nutshell, that's what I think was the, was the issue there. It was more of a high level political analysis. On the issue of the weapons though, Emma, let's remember that most of the weapons that Al Qassam Brigades have and that Islamic Jihad have on the ground in Gaza are domestically manufactured by engineering cores that have been doing this for decades. They're manufacturing their own bullets, they're manufacturing their own sniper rifles, they're manufacturing their own rockets, they are taking the debris from munitions fired at Gaza by Israel and they are retrofitting them into their own. There's an old Al Jazeera documentary from 2006. It was in Al Jazeera Arabic. It's called Hosted by the Rifle. And it's a documentary where an Al Jazeera correspondent goes into Gaza and he interviews people from Al Qassam Brigade's engineering corps and they show him the process of manufacturing their own grenades, their own rockets, their own rifles. And in that he does an interview the correspondent with Mohammed Deif, Mohamed Deif was widely credited as being the Palestinian that modernized Al Qassam Brigades into a fighting force capable of doing an operation like occurred on October 7th. And so they have created factories in the tunnels for the manufacture of their own weapons, often using ordinance that Israel has fired at them and then repurposing it to create their own weaponry. What happened on October 7 was in the context of Palestinian resistance, utterly spectacular. Whatever you think about the actions, who was killed, how were they were killed on October 7. What they managed to do was a total shock to the system, the national security system of Israel. They were able to breach multiple Israeli military facilities with almost no resistance whatsoever and come away with upwards of 250 captives, including many dozens of Israeli soldiers, not to mention seizing computer hard drives, papers and other intelligence from these Israeli bases and bring them back into Gaza with them. It was the most stunning and successful attack that the Palestine that any Palestinian resistance forces have ever launched against the State of Israel. And it was all planned in total secrecy using weapons that were overwhelmingly manufactured in the tunnels underneath Gaza.

[Sam Cedar]

I want to move forward to this sort of where we've been this year, particularly under the Trump administration. And I want to go back to what was happening in March when the first sort of it wasn't the first cease fire, but it was what appeared to be the first sort of like potentially extended one end process. Just tell us about that. It is, since the Israelis unilaterally ended that process. But tell us what that process was and how it came about. And then I want to talk about Boehlert, Adam Boehlert, who is the special hostage envoy for the United States.

[Jeremy Scahill]

All right, so rewind a little bit further back In May of 2024, Joe Biden, who was president at the time, stands up in front of the American people at a press conference and says that there's a breakthrough on the verge that based on an Israeli idea, that the Biden administration had come up with a framework for a ceasefire that it believed was going to be able to bring a resolution to the war in Gaza. And then Biden and his administration do not veto a UN resolution. That happens. You know, they were constantly vetoing all these ceasefire resolutions. They sit this one out. They let the United nations endorse what Biden at this point then was calling the Biden proposal. They go back to Hamas and Israel. There's a little bit of back and forth. July 2, 2024, Hamas formally signs with the mediators a commitment to enter into a three phase ceasefire deal with Israel that was based on what Joe Biden called the Biden plan. Israel then proceeds to blow that deal up and totally humiliate Biden. And instead of putting any consequences on Netanyahu, Biden continues the flow of weapons. And then nothing ever happens again. Trump again emerges as, you know, he quite likely is going to win. He starts saying on the campaign trail that, you know, within hours of getting into office, he's gonna end the war. Then once he becomes the president elect, he starts threatening and says, you know, mostly he was saying to Hamas, but it was clear it meant both sides that if, if, if there isn't a deal before I'm sworn in and hostages don't start coming home, there's gonna be all hell to pay. That actually meant something. So you then had Steve Witkoff, a golf billionaire buddy of Donald Trump's, get signed on during the transition to be Trump's envoy. He starts attending these negotiations with the regional mediators from Qatar, in Egypt, alongside the outgoing Biden administration team. And there's a famous story where Witkoff basically says he's gonna fly into Israel even though it's Shabbat. And Netanyahu's people are saying, well, he can't meet you on this day. And Witkoff is saying, no, you are going to meet me on that day. By all accounts, it's quite clear from Hamas's side and Israel's side, had Trump not been elected, that ceasefire wouldn't have happened. But what's interesting was, is that the terms of the ceasefire signed on January 17th of this year, three days before Trump gets sworn in, was almost to the letter, identical to the May proposal that Joe Biden had put forward. So there was nothing that changed except for the political pressure that was placed on Netanyahu by someone who wasn't even the president yet. In Donald Trump, Netanyahu, though, Sam starts saying, yeah, we signed this three phase deal, but actually we're only going to respect the first phase of it. And actually we're not going to fully respect the first phase of it because we're going to still keep bombing them during the ceasefire, but we're going to go through the motions to try to get as many Israeli captives out as we can. So for a month, that's what happened. You had these exchanges where the Palestinian side was giving over Israelis. The Israelis would then release a large number of. At the beginning it was Palestinian children and women. You know, there are 10,000 Palestinians that Palestinians consider to be hostages that Israel is holding. 2,000 Palestinians have been taken from Gaza just for the purpose of exchanging them in these deals. So as it's moving along a couple of weeks into that first 42 day phase, Israel is supposed to send technical negotiators who are going to work out the deal. The details of the second 42 day phase. That second 42 day phase stipulated all Israeli forces are out of Gaza. All remaining Israeli captives are freed. Netanyahu had said, I'm not going to do this. He told Trump he's not going to do it. He told Biden he's not going to do it. Biden and Trump both gave him what are called side letters saying if Israel decides it's not in its best interest, it can continue the war. March 1st comes end of phase one. Israel makes clear it's not moving toward a phase two. March 2nd, they impose a full blockade. Not an ounce of water, not a grain of wheat, no pill of medicine. Nothing will enter Gaza, by the way. It's still that still going on.

[Sam Cedar]

And he's been over two months now, Right?

[Jeremy Scahill]

So then Witkoff and Bowler start kicking into gear because they start to get concerned that if Netanyahu just continues to go full scorched earth, that Trump's other agenda in the Middle east is going to be messed with. Like none of this is actually about the Palestinian people. It's about two things. Getting the Israeli and the US Citizen captives out of Gaza, whether living or dead, and bringing this to some resolution so Trump can go out about the business of the Trump family. Business. And a little bit for the United States in the Middle east that, let's just be really clear, that's what's going on. But Witkoff and Bowler then start saying, we should talk directly to Hamas. We have our own citizens there. Netanyahu's plan seems to be that it's okay if captives keep dying, so they open a direct channel. Adam Bowler, by the way, is one of Jared Kushner's college roommates and a very close friend of Jared Kushner, the son in law, by the way, when I spoke to Hamas officials about it, they were saying to me, oh, did you see how Adam Bowler got smeared? But then he was brought back into Trump. Why do you think that is? They were asking me and I'm like, you guys don't know, like, you have an intelligence wing. This is a friend of Jared Kushner's. Like, he's a personal friend of the Trump family. You guys are following me here. That's what they said. They send, like, Jared Kushner's frat buddy to be the guy directly meeting with Hamas. So, you know, you've got his golf buddy, Witkoff and his kid, his, his son in law's college roommate are the lead negotiators now.

[Sam Cedar]

And the irony is it's probably like, there's probably like somewhere a finder's fee for whatever deal ends up coming if they get, like, you know, I mean, there's total speculation, but, you know, we just saw Qatari, you know, off. The Qatari's offering a $400 million plane. Who knows what deal down the road they think is going to come out of this? But let's just take, I want to take this moment. So Bowler goes and has a conversation with Hamas and it creates a huge conversation and he goes around the Israelis and this is how he is met. This is on March 9th. Let's just start with Jake Tapper's introduction of Bowler. This is a fast. I found this fascinating because I, I had seen it contemporaneously, but after listening to your interview, you, I went back and it's fascinating to see, like, how Tapper introduces this guy.

[E]

Joining me now is the man who sat across the proverbial table from Hamas, US Hostage envoy Adam Bowler. Adam, thanks so much for joining us. Let's start on These direct negotiations with Hamas, first of all, obviously controversial to direct. Negotiate, directly negotiate with terrorists. How much sign off did you get from President Trump beforehand? And this is just my personal curiosity as a Jewish American, did you have to steel yourself before sitting down to deal with people who are definitionally anti Semitic murderers?

[F]

Well, I'll say. Meeting with.

[Sam Cedar]

Okay, so I just wanted to like, just. Yeah, they are, they are not definitionally anti Semitic murderers. I mean, just speak to. I want to get to the rest of the bullet, but speak because I know that you asked Hamdan about, you know, what is the basis of this resistance movement. Do you hate. I don't know if you asked specifically, do you hate Jews? But, but, but he addressed this.

[Jeremy Scahill]

I don't ask that because I'm not a child. I, you know, I'm a student of history and you know, look, since 2017, the Hamas charter has stated quite explicitly that the official position of Hamas is that it will accept a two state arrangement with Israel along the pre June 4, 1967 borders with East Jerusalem as its capital. That's been the position since 2017. What people like Jake Tapper and you know, and others who make these claims rely on is a combination of having swallowed far too much Israeli propaganda and statements that have been made over the years about Jewish people by various people affiliated with Hamas that Hamas itself doesn't deny. And if you actually pay attention to what they say, there have been several Hamas officials, including Abu Marzouk, one of the most senior officials in Hamas, in a recent court filing in Britain, acknowledging that there were things said that don't reflect the views of the organization. You can take that or leave it, but you know, Tapper is engaged in reckless, irresponsible, erroneous journalism when he poses a question like that to Adam Bowler.

[Sam Cedar]

Amazing that that's also the first question.

[Jeremy Scahill]

Too, like, but this is typical. I mean, Jake Tapper has been, unfortunately, you know, I used to have respect for Jake Tapper during Obama when it was, you know, drone war stuff. Jake Tapper would ask good questions. Jake Tapper totally checked his principles at the door on October 7th when it came to covering this. He's been a rabid partisan. He's been part of a media operation that has normalized and facilitated this genocide. You know, these people are not journalists. They have been propagandists in a very dark way for a US Facilitated genocide. I think we just have to say that very, very clearly. They have had people on that have said demonstrably false things about events that took place on October 7th and they have never, ever retracted it, nor has the New York Times. And Jake Tapper was part of that lie machine that was meant to dehumanize Palestinians. But on the issue of Adam Boehler, they then have Adam Bowler sitting there. I talked to Hamas. They found Bowler fascinating. They said that he was inquisitive, that he wanted to understand not just the events of October 7th and forward, but wanted to go back. He asked them about the foundation of Hamas, about their views on a wide range of issues. They felt like it was a very, very productive meeting. And they said, they told me that Boehler kept saying that he really was surprised at what he was hearing in the room, that it's so different from what he had been told was going to be said in that room, and kept emphasizing that to them. And they told me something that hasn't been made public. What Bowler told them is that the next step in this is going to be we're going to set up a direct meeting between Hamas and Steve Witkoff and we're going to discuss a much broader framework. And what Hamas was just stunned to see was Adam Boller not just going on CNN, but going on Israeli television and stating that Hamas has put forward a proposal for a long term truce of five to ten years with Israel. So Adam Boller, who is the special envoy on hostages for Trump and college roommate of Jared Kushner, goes in, meets with Hamas the first time there's been direct talks between the American government and Hamas and comes out of it with clearly a much more nuanced understanding, which is what you need in diplomacy where Antony Blinken and others failed. Somehow this guy kind of gets it and comes out and accurately says this is what the position is of Hamas. It was an extraordinary moment. Whatever the motivations are of Trump and company beyond it, from the position of Hamas, they're saying, look, we didn't know any, we'd never heard of this guy before.

[Matt Binder]

But he seemed interested in what you read on that. Jeremy, what's your read on that? Just the idea that he's not a part of the national security kind of establishment Western.

[Sam Cedar]

He's, he is a basically a health care like VC type of person.

[Matt Binder]

But, but, but I just think like that's there's something really important to underline there. The rod at the core of the National Security Council consultant class that basically was running the show for Biden, who couldn't, you know, put string two sentences together. They're there, they begin to believe their own BS or whatever. They're Spewing to the public is so disconnected from the reality that you have, you know, sigma Chi, bro, come in and just have some common sense reaction. Like, there's two elements that I think are really important to kind of flesh out is that one, these people maybe have more of a layman's kind of reaction to what's happening here. And two, Trump has this transactional element to him where there's some hope here in the sense that he has these Arab Americans for Trump that reportedly maybe made some connection. I take Barack Ravid's reporting with a boulder of salt, but I'm just trying to say that I want to get there soon. But just that with the Qatari plane and everything like that, Trump may be wanting to look at this from a business, you scratch my back thing, as opposed to an ideological Zionist perspective where maybe we do have a shift there.

[Jeremy Scahill]

I mean, you guys remember that. That movie from. I mean, we're all relatively similar generation. That movie, Dave, where the guy who looks like the guy who looks like the president becomes president when the president becomes incapacitated, and then he has his friend, his personal accountant comes to the White House and balances the budget. It was like, I think it was a 90s movie.

[Sam Cedar]

You know, I get some bad news for you about everybody in this office except for me, but in terms of, like, being aware of anything in the 90s, but go ahead.

[Jeremy Scahill]

All right, all right. My apologies. I'll try to be generous toward you, Sam, but it's okay.

[Sam Cedar]

Oh, no, no, Me. That's. I. That was late in my. My life. One of those.

[Jeremy Scahill]

I said relatively, which is sort of mad.

[Sam Cedar]

I was talking about. These guys are too young for that. They don't.

[Jeremy Scahill]

Maybe Emma's parents told her about this.

[Matt Binder]

Yeah, exactly.

[Jeremy Scahill]

Totally embarrassing moment for me. I apologize, I've outed myself. But it's a movie basically about what happens if a normal person is put in charge of the United States and has to figure out the problems of the day. And in a way, if, like, ordinary common sense people sit in a room and they're sort of listening, they come up with a different set of ideas than the class of people that Emma's referring to. The people that are paid by the makers of tanks to think that go in and out of government and think tank world, like the blinkens of the world, you know, or the consulting world or whatever.

[Sam Cedar]

Let's listen to two minutes of this, of Bowler, because this comes out in these two minutes or so when he's talking to Jake Tapper. Now, of course, in the days after this interview, Bowler was attacked and the Israelis go nuts.

[Jeremy Scahill]

And Republican senators then start to say to Trump, you know, we want him gone. And it seemed like they were going to kick him under the bus. But then Trump was like, no, actually. And while we're talking, Bowler's on his way to go.

[Sam Cedar]

I want to get to that. But let's look at this clip. This is from again from March 9, that same interview situation.

[F]

I do think there's hope. I think that Israel has done a wonderful, masterful job eliminating Hamas, Hezbollah, a number of other enemies in the state that makes things possible that weren't possible before. And I think you could see something like a long term truce where we forgive prisoners, where Hamas lays down their arms, where they agree they're not part of the political party going forward. I think that's a reality. It's real close.

[E]

Do you have plans to sit down with Hamas again?

[F]

You never know. You know, sometimes you're in the area and you drop by.

[E]

All right, It's a very pop in.

[Sam Cedar]

We've got to go back. I want to get to the part where the Israelis were upset. Maybe it was a little bit earlier than this. I'm sorry. Yeah, go ahead. I'm sorry.

[F]

I don't know where to help other Americans. And so it comes part and parcel of the job. I knew that I was going to meet Hamas as a result of it, and we discussed it then. I think when you walk and you sit in front of somebody and you know what they've done, it's hard not to think of it. I wouldn't say it's the most productive. The most productive is to realize that every piece of a person is a human and to identify with the human elements of those people and then build from there. But it definitely feels a little odd knowing what they really are.

[E]

So thank you for your candor. So you did get signed off from President Trump ahead of time, though.

[F]

Of course.

[E]

Yeah. What was the result of the meeting? How close are you to a deal to get the American hostages living and dead murdered still in God?

[Sam Cedar]

Jump forward again. I'm sorry? Just jump forward to the Ron Dermer part. Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

[E]

That's a very unique pop in, I suppose. So you talked about the job Israel has done in trying to negotiate the release of the hostages, living and dead. Axios's reporter, Barack was Ravid is reporting the top Israeli official, Ron Dermer, strongly discouraged you from talking directly with Hamas. He said it was a tense phone call. Tell us about that. Do you understand why Netanyahu, Dermer, others might be upset.

[F]

I do understand. I spoke with Ron, and I'm sympathetic. He has someone that he doesn't know well, making direct contact with Hamas, maybe. I would see them and say, look, look, they don't have horns growing out of their head. They're actually guys like us. They're pretty nice guys. So he doesn't know me, and there are big stakes. He lives in a country where if it sets certain precedents, then it will hurt or help a lot of other people. So I understand the consternation and the concern, and I wasn't upset. At the same time, we're the United States. We're not an agent of Israel. We have. Have specific interests at play. And we did communicate back and forth. We had very specific parameters by which we fell. And the reality is, what I wanted to do is jumpstart some negotiations that were in a very fragile place. And I wanted to say to Hamas, what is the end game that you want here? Not the dream end game, but what do you think is realistic at this point? Because until we know that, it's very hard to reach some sort of truce or some sort of end to hostility. So in the end, I think it was a very helpful meeting. It was very helpful to hear some back and forth. But I think Israel knows walking out of that. You know, it's not like Hamas got the world because I thought there were a bunch of nice guys.

[Sam Cedar]

Right. All right. I mean, that's fascinating because first of all, I've never. You never heard an American official talk like that. And he is obviously very, you know, he's being very diplomatic, but he. What he's saying is they don't have horns. I could have conversations with these guys. They have an agenda. They have an end game as well. What is so subsequent to that? I mean, I mean, that, that moment I found fascinating. And the Israelis really, I mean, sort of tip their hand here. Like, you can't go and talk to them because we have a narrative that we're trying to control, and you're usurping that narrative.

[Jeremy Scahill]

But, I mean, this is, this is the thing. Like, I'm, I, I am totally clear on who Donald Trump is, you know, and, and, and I think Hamas is very clear on what Donald Trump is regarding Israel. They understand that this administration is, is just completely filled with Zionists. They understand that the appointment of Mike Huckabee, a fanatical Christian supremacist lunatic, you know, is now the US Ambassador to Israel. They know that Trump may well Tell Netanyahu will support full annexation of the West Bank. They're clear on all of that. But where they see opportunity is in the form of Trump's unorthodox nature. The fact that there is really open corruption in this administration, that Trump wants to make a bunch of deals with Arab nations that actually want this war to end, that it's in play in a way it never would have been when you have a ghoulish 50 year radical Zionist like Joe Biden in the White House who was, who spent his entire career supporting Israel at its most violent and most extreme. From their perspective, it's like these guys are kind of normal people. Like, they said the same thing about Adam Bowler that he's saying about them, that we actually find them reasonable to deal with. They don't believe they're gonna get the farm from Donald Trump. They want what they feel is a fair shot and they think they have a better chance of getting it with Bowler and Witkoff. I mean, we are now in a situation, it's so pathetic and also amusing at the same time that the best hope we have maybe for some end to this genocide, is that Donald Trump's unorthodox way of approaching things, the people that he's put in charge of these negotiations, not being professional politicians from the consultancy class, and Trump's corruption and prioritization beyond just supporting Zionism, could end up ending this thing. Yeah, this is so crazy that that's true.

[Sam Cedar]

Trump believes in one thing and that is how much is going to be put into his pocket. And I think like, you know, at the very least, if you know, you're not sort of, there's something transactional, then there's perhaps a transaction that can happen. All right, so bring it to today. We have a situation where subsequent to that, that hostage, that prisoner was released and they were supposed to go to Qatar and meet Trump there. Qatar, meanwhile, has given for like what's going on now. And this involves Saudi Arabia too. Like from your perspective and what you gleaned, what is going on right now?

[Jeremy Scahill]

So what happened is that since those meetings with Bowler, Hamas has said that they're interested in, in freeing Idan Alexander, this kid from New Jersey who joined the Israeli military and was captured by Palestinian fighters in, in Israeli military uniform. I keep repeating that because people call it, say it's a hostage, as though he was one of the people taken from the music festival when he was actually a combatant in the Israeli military. So Hamas originally though, wanted to make that part of a deal that brought them back to the original framework that contemplates full Israeli withdrawal and an end to the genocide. I think that what they. The calculus from Hamas's perspective is we're taking a gamble here. We're going to release the only male soldier that we've released since October 7, 2023, to the United States for nothing on paper and nothing in return, you know, in terms of a guarantee or a stamp on it. And what their perspective is is that Trump's. And I think that Trump's people indicated to Hamas in these discussions that they intend to put a lot of pressure on Netanyahu. Whether or not that's going to pan out, it's a huge gamble. From Hamas's perspective, the only card, so to speak, that they have is the captives that they're holding. Every time they release a captive to Israel, or in this case, the United States, their bargaining power gets reduced. That's how they think of this, that if they didn't hold those captives, then there would be nothing to encourage the United States or any other country to put pressure on Israel. So we're in that situation. Trump, though, is in the Middle east wanting money, wanting to make deals. This has nothing to do with Netanyahu. He wants to make that money. And when making that money comes into conflict, because Netanyahu is intent on just continuing his genocide. In the case of someone like Biden, no problem. In the case of someone like Trump, you're messing with my money. And I think that's really, to put it in just kind of the most basic human terms. I think that is part of what we're seeing here regarding Qatar. It's interesting. Qatar is, on the one hand, at the center of a huge scandal. Qatar gate for Netanyahu right now internally in Israel. And Qatar also has close diplomatic relations with Hamas. It also has relations with Israel and regularly meets with Israeli intelligence and has been one of the primary mediators in these negotiations over the Gaza war. But beyond that, Qatar wants to make a play, to be viewed as the kind of logical American diplomatic ally in the Middle east and a close business partner of the American capitalist class. So that is Qatar's view. And the airplane thing, you wouldn't give that airplane to Joe Biden. You would do other deals with Joe Biden. But that's the language of Donald Trump. So from the Qatari's perspective, they're like, okay, well, these are the rules of the game. Trump's people say it's legal. Here you go. Here's your $400 million luxury jet you know, luxury.

[Matt Binder]

The other language of Donald Trump was hinted in this clip here where he said at the end, we're America, or I'm paraphrasing it to a certain degree where. Yeah, exactly. Where there's this. This discomfort with Israel with the tail wagging the dog to an extent here that you're right.

[Jeremy Scahill]

I think, I think Trump doesn't like Netanyahu at all.

[Matt Binder]

I mean, there's now Fox News is reporting that.

[Jeremy Scahill]

Yeah, yeah, I think he finds him a tacky, annoying person. He just has to deal with, you know, separate Netanyahu from Israel and the fact that Trump's primary, you know, his top benefactor, you know, Mariam ADELSON, you know, $100 million, he has to kind of do her bidding to an extent. But I think there's a lot of evidence to suggest that Trump finds Netanyahu garish, annoying, doesn't want him around, probably doesn't like how he dresses or whatever he finds him, doesn't like the way he chews his food. Those things actually matter in Trump world. And weirdly, there are indications that Trump sort of likes Mahmoud Abbas, even though most Palestinians don't like Mahmoud Abbas. So one thing to look out for here is that Abbas, who is technically kind of in control of Palestine because he's the head of the Palestinian Authority, there may be meetings with Trump in these days involving Abbas. And I wouldn't be surprised if we started to hear that Trump's people want to make a deal involving Mahmoud Abbas to resolve the war in Gaza. And that could be that it goes behind the back of both Israel and kind of Hamas to just sort of say, here's what we're doing. But, Emma, you're hitting it on the head. Trump is an American nationalist in his own imagination and America firster. And I don't think he has any problem saying to Netanyahu, we don't take orders from you. And that's not something that Democratic presidents.

[Matt Binder]

Typically say, yeah, he's not going to Jerusalem. And the fact that this IDF soldier was an American, I think is really key to his conception of himself as an American nationalist, that he went around the Israelis and in terms of what Hamas got in exchange for it, they got the good ear of Donald Trump for they got to say, we made a deal with you. We scratched your back. So you get. You have to scratch ours. In the way that this Arab Americans for Trump story is kind of recirculating here, where there's one thing Trump is transactional. He put RFK in as health and Human Services secretary, when everyone thinks he's a crank because he felt that he delivered a specific coalition for him in the election. And I think that's where we're at here, where Trump does feel like there's some transactional value in going around the Israelis from his. From a political perspective. And that is where we may have an opportunity, in my view.

[Jeremy Scahill]

But remember, remember the backdrop of all of this that we've seen, which is totally extraordinary. Trump designates, within days or a couple of weeks of coming back to the presidency, he designates Ansar Allah, the Houthis in Yemen, as a full foreign terrorist organization. Joe Biden had walked that back a bit because they thought that there could be some diplomatic resolution. So Trump does that designation. But then the US Starts doing this heavy bombing of Yemen, and you add the Pete Hegset signal scandal, et cetera. And the fact is that the truth is that Ansar Allah was actually sticking it to the United States. They shot down record numbers of American drones. The US could not. This is a mountainous terrain. I've spent a good bit of time in Yemen. It is almost impossible for the United States to destroy their missile production capability. They tried repeatedly, and they just couldn't do it. So eventually, Trump's people recognize this isn't in our interest. They sign a ceasefire deal with Ansar Allah, a foreign terrorist organization that Trump designated as one of the first foreign policy moves he made coming back into the White House. They make this deal brokered by Oman, and they cut Israel out of it. Do people understand what this means? Ansar Allah is saying, we will not attack American ships anymore, but we're going to continue to bomb Israel.

[Sam Cedar]

Yes.

[Jeremy Scahill]

And we're going to continue to attack Israeli ships. That's the deal Donald Trump made. His base, some of his base, they're losing their minds over this. Netanyahu is losing his mind over this, that Trump made that deal. Trump is now negotiating directly with Iran. Now, Trump blew up, you know, the best deal that we had to try to ward off any kind of war with Iran that was signed under the Obama administration. And he may take us back to almost identical to what Obama had negotiated. But setting that aside and recognizing there's ego at play, it's extraordinary. The Israelis don't want him doing this with Iran. The Israelis have always played a huge role in dictating American policy on Iran. They certainly didn't want them signing a ceasefire agreement with Ansar Allah. They certainly didn't want Adam Bowler and Steve Witkoff to be talking directly with Hamas. So Whatever anybody thinks about Donald Trump in the whole scope of American empire, there maybe is a better shake for some of these things under these guys, golf buddies and college roommates, than there was under the professional adults in the room that we were told were the answer to our problems.

[Sam Cedar]

Witkoff was just in the news in Jerusalem Post reporting that he had a meeting with the hostage families. And Witkoff said, we want to bring the hostages home, but Israel not willing to end the war.

[Jeremy Scahill]

And the families of those Israeli captives said to Steve Witkoff in that meeting, Sam, that what you're saying is something that Netanyahu will never say to us. You know, that we don't hear this from Netanyahu, that those families believe, and I think rightly so, that Netanyahu has prioritized the extermination of Palestinian women and kids in tents with US Weapons over the freeing of their own people like Witkoff and Bowler. They know the truth. And the truth is that Hamas is ready this moment to make a deal that releases every single captive immediately. That's the deal on the table from Hamas perspective. And Netanyahu has been blowing it up.

[Sam Cedar]

And that involves a five to seven year truce where there would be. And they would give up their leverage essentially with really no way of assuring that outside of this, this type of commitment. All right, last question is. I know you got to go.

[Jeremy Scahill]

Yep.

[Sam Cedar]

Saudi Arabia, like where are they? Because they, they, they were about to sign these accords. It seemed like Biden was en route to that. They now seem to have like, re. Not necessarily recommitted, but they seem to be more, they're paying attention more to the situation in Gaza. I would imagine that's a function of like, of domestic and sort of pan Arab pressures where, like, what is it that MBS needs?

[Jeremy Scahill]

I actually think the Saudis have benefited from, you know, from this situation tremendously because normalization with Israel is incredibly unpopular among Arab populations. You know, these, these rulers have been engaging in these deals. There's unrest that's brewing. It's not that there's going to be, you know, that the Saudi kingdom is gonna fall tomorrow or that the King of Jordan is gonna fall, but there's an anger brewing in the streets. There's a resentment of these kinds of deals, especially as people have watched the incineration of tens of thousands of Palestinians over these 19 months. And the Saudis were under an enormous amount of pressure not to normalize with Israel, just based on broader Arab public opinion. So Netanyahu doing the Gaza genocide and mass murdering Palestinians and blowing up all of these deals and then having Trump come back into power. I think the Saudis sat back and they said, wait a minute, we don't have to talk about normalizing with Israel right now because Israel is committing a genocide. The US Is facilitating that genocide. We have Trump coming back in, who was asking us for a trillion dollars, who wants to sign all these huge deals so that he can go back and brag about it and wants to set his family up for future and ongoing deals. And so I think the Saudis look at this and they feel like we're in a great position here because we can push normalization to the side a bit. We don't have to worry about that. The US Under Trump may sign some bilateral agreements with us that Biden wanted to be linked to normalization with Israel and that Israel wanted linked to it. So I think the Saudis and the Qataris are huge. They're winning the game right now because of this combination of factors.

[Sam Cedar]

Jeremy Scahill, Investigative Report, War Correspondent, Co Founder, Job Site News I can't encourage people enough. We're going to link to both your, your conversation with Usam Hamdan and also the conversation you had with a couple of your colleagues at Drop site about that conversation. I think both are worth watching and we're going to, we're going to link to both those at in our YouTube and podcast and Majority FM. Jeremy, thank you so much for taking all this time. I really appreciate it. And again, I have, I've told you over the course of 20 years how much I appreciate your work. That still remains the case.

[Matt Binder]

Same here.

[Jeremy Scahill]

Thank you, Sam and Emma both thank you and thank you guys for doing such an important show.

[Sam Cedar]

All right. Thank you, Jeremy.

[Jeremy Scahill]

All right, take care.

[Sam Cedar]

We're back. Sam Cedar, Emma Viglan, Majority Report Folks, we will put that link like we said to those interviews at Drop site. You should check it out. Really fascinating and excellent piece of journalism, something you just don't generally have access to. So check that out as well. We'll have Jeremy back on sometime, I would imagine relatively soon. Just a reminder, you can support this show and the work we do here on a daily basis. This has been quite a week already. It's only Tuesday.

[Matt Binder]

Oh my God.

[Sam Cedar]

Tomorrow on the program, Ezra Klein is going to come on to talk about his new book Abundance. But you can support this program by going to jointhe majorityreport.com when you do, you not only get the free show free of commercials, you also get access to the fun half and you support this program like between yesterday with Blythe and today with Skahill and tomorrow with Ezra Klein. That feels like almost a month's worth of other podcasts you would listen to. And that's just. We know that's just making us landing on hump day. So you can support our work again. Join the majorityreport.com Also, you can support us by giving us a good rating on whatever podcast, whatever they call that. Itunes.

[Matt Binder]

Definitely not itunes.

[Sam Cedar]

Whatever. Whatever it is, whatever the Apple thing is.

[Matt Binder]

Apple, Apple podcast or Spotify.

[Sam Cedar]

You can also give us your subscription on Twitch. That is helpful in the follow on Twitch.

[Emma Vigland]

We're 3,000 shy of 100 case.

[Sam Cedar]

Yeah, that's on there. And go into other people's comments and say go follow. Check out the Majority Report today. Is that appropriate? Are you allowed to say stuff like that? I don't.

[Emma Vigland]

I mean, in moderation, I think.

[Sam Cedar]

Yeah, don't be obnoxious about it. Tell your friends is what I'm saying. Also subscribe or like us on YouTube. And do you want to get some Majority Report merch? We got some sweet ass trucker hats. Oh yeah, that. These are actually what I'm giving as gifts now. We got the Majority Report, Max left, trucker hat, All American made and union printed.

[Matt Binder]

So if you want to show that you're on the Max left.

[Sam Cedar]

There's only one place in the country apparently to get us made trucker hats.

[Matt Binder]

Interesting.

[Sam Cedar]

I don't know why that's the case, but we found it and we got it. And so I don't think you can tell in there, but there's some like a black stitch. There's some stitching on the, on the side. On the brim. Yeah, on the brim.

[Matt Binder]

Oh, on the brim.

[Sam Cedar]

Yeah. Not in that picture, but in the one because I guess maybe the people who were making the other ones went out of business. I don't know. But there it is. Max left. You can get also the trucker patch. I would get both. I mean, personally, that's what I do. Although it. I feel like it's obnoxious if I walk around with my wearing my own merch.

[Matt Binder]

Understood.

[Sam Cedar]

I told that story about Chris Elliott, right?

[Matt Binder]

No.

[Sam Cedar]

When I was a kid, Chris Elliott was on the David Letterman show, the morning show, and then I think in the. I think the nighttime show. And when I was in college, I came down to New York City and walking down John Benjamin, another kid who you don't know. And we were walking down the street, this must have been 1985 or 6 or something. Like that. And this guy walks by us, he's walking by us. We could see him from a distance. He's got like a David Letterman headband on, a David Letterman jacket, David Letterman arm bands. Which just in and of itself looks weird.

[Matt Binder]

Right?

[Sam Cedar]

And some like David Letterman like tube socks. I mean he looked like absolute like lunatic. And he's walking towards and we realized like, that's Chris Elliott. And we're like, hey, Chris. And he's like, hey, guys. So clear.

[Matt Binder]

He was just going around wearing that merch.

[Sam Cedar]

Wearing that merch to get recognized. He's a lunatic. But. And then I got another story about him dry heaving in my car probably a decade later.

[Matt Binder]

Oh, full circle.

[Sam Cedar]

Yep. Anyways, get the hats. They're available at shop. Majorityreportradio.com also, don't forget, just coffee.co op, fair trade coffee, hot chocolate. Use the coupon code. Majority at 10% off.

[Emma Vigland]

Matt, left wrecking tonight, 7:00 Eastern Time. Andrew Hartman on to talk about his book Karl Marx in America, a massive book everyone should read. If you're interested in Karl Marx or America. And also Michael Burns talking about philosophy, check that out. Tonight, 7 o' clock Eastern. Patreon.com LeftReckoning we like people to support the show.

[Sam Cedar]

See you in the fun half three months from now, six months from now, nine months from now. And I don't think it's going to be the same as it looks like in six months from now. And I don't know if it's necessarily going to be better six months from now than it is three months from now. But I think around 18 months out, we're going to look back and go like, wow. What? What is that going on? It's nuts. Wait a second. Hold on, hold on for a second. Emma, welcome to the program. Hey, Matt. What is up, everyone? Fun pat. No me Keen.

[Jeremy Scahill]

You did it.

[Sam Cedar]

Fun hat.

[Matt Binder]

Let's go, Brandon.

[Jeremy Scahill]

Let's go, Brandon.

[Sam Cedar]

Fun hat. Bradley, you want to say hello?

[Emma Vigland]

Sorry to disappoint everyone.

[Sam Cedar]

I'm just a random guy. It's all the boys today. Fundamentally false.

[Matt Binder]

No. I'm sorry.

[Sam Cedar]

Women. Stop talking for a second. Let me finish.

[Jeremy Scahill]

Where is this coming from, dude?

[Sam Cedar]

But. Dude, you want to smoke this? 7A. Yes. Hi.

[Jeremy Scahill]

This is me. This thing?

[Sam Cedar]

Yes. Is this me? Is it me? It is you? Is this me? Oh, it's me. I think it is you. Who is you? No sound every single freaking day. What's on your mind?

[Jeremy Scahill]

We can discuss free markets and we can discuss capitalism.

[Sam Cedar]

I'm gonna go Snow White Libertarians. They're so stupid. Though common sense says. Of course.

[Matt Binder]

Gobbledygook.

[Sam Cedar]

We nailed him.

[Matt Binder]

So what's 79 plus 21?

[Sam Cedar]

Challenge men.

[Jeremy Scahill]

I'm positive. And corporate quivering.

[Sam Cedar]

I believe 96. I want to say. 8, 5, 7, 21 0, 35, 5 0, 11 half.

[Jeremy Scahill]

3, 8, 9, 11. For instance.

[Matt Binder]

$3,400. $1900. 5, 4.

[Sam Cedar]

$3 trillion.

[Jeremy Scahill]

Sold.

[Sam Cedar]

It's a zero sum game.

[Matt Binder]

Actually. You're making me think less.

[Sam Cedar]

But let me say this. You call satire, Sam goes satire on.

[Jeremy Scahill]

Top of it all.

[Sam Cedar]

My favorite part about you is you. Like every day, all day. Like everything you do. Without a doubt. Hey, buddy, we see you. All right, folks, folks, folks.

[Matt Binder]

It's just the week being weeded out, obviously.

[Sam Cedar]

Yeah. Sun's out, guns out. I. I don't know. But you should know, people just don't.

[Emma Vigland]

Like to entertain ideas anymore.

[Sam Cedar]

I have a question. Who cares?

[Emma Vigland]

Our chat is enabled, folks.

[Sam Cedar]

I love it.

[Matt Binder]

I do love that.

[Sam Cedar]

Gotta jump. Gotta be quick. I gotta jump. I'm losing it, bro. 2 o' clock, we're already late and the guy's being a dick. So screw him. Sent to a gulag.

[Matt Binder]

Outrageous.

[Sam Cedar]

What is wrong with you? Love you.

[Jeremy Scahill]

Bye.

[Sam Cedar]

Love you.

[Jeremy Scahill]

Bye.

[Sam Cedar]

Bye.