← The Majority Report with Sam Seder
The Majority Report with Sam Seder
2499 - Trump's Birthright Citizenship Run-Around w/ Jeet Heer
01:18:42
We've made it to casual Friday folks! The Supreme Court had a field day yesterday with the Trump administration's attorney over their executive order to revoke birthright citizenship. Several of the justices, including conservatives, seemed to reject...
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- [00:01]
Sam Seder
Hey folks, today's episode brought to you by one of my favorite sponsors. Sunsetlakesabede.com they grow, harvest and ship all of its craft Saba Day products from northern Vermont straight to your door. You can skip the lines, find relief and relaxation@sunsetlakesebade.com sunsetlakesebede.com It's a vertically integrated farm that aims to provide affordable Saba Day products to everybody. They grow their own Seba Day. They get third party testing on all of it. They provide paperwork of that testing with every single order. They have great farming practices, integrated pest management, they don't use any pesticides. They have great business practices, mostly employee owned and $20 minimum wage when they start to harvest and do all the seasonal stuff that they do. But they have all sorts of products. They got tinctures to help you sleep, they got gummies to help you relax. They got gummies to help you focus. They got gummies to help you sleep. They have gummies with some tads. So you have a little bit of fun while you're watching the Celtics beat the Knicks tonight, whatever it's gonna be. They've got fudge and coffee. They've got solves to help your muscles or to use off label like I do for my eczema. They have all sorts of great products and if your your order is over 75 bucks, Sunset Lake Sabide will ship your order for free. And when you create an account on Sunset Lake Sabaday's website, you can start earning reward points and earn back 10% on all your purchases. And you can also refer your friends to Sunset Lake Sabade. You send them a Coupon for their first order and you earn 10 bucks worth of store credit from them. So check them out. They are movement partners. They've donated tens of thousands of dollars to things like refugee resettlement and strike relief funds and Planned Parenthood and carceral reform. So check them out, use the coupon code. Left is best. All one word. You get 20% off your entire order@sunsetlakesebade.com now for the show the Majority Report with Sam Cedar. Where every day's casual Friday. That means Monday is casual. Monday, Tuesday, casual. Tuesday, Wednesday casual. Hump day, Thursday casual. Thirs, that's what we call it. And Friday casual Shabbat. The Majority Report with Sam Cedar. It is Friday, May 16, 2025. My name is Sam Seder. This is the five time award winning Majority Report. We are broadcasting live steps from the industrially ravaged Gowanus Canal in the Heartland of America, downtown Brooklyn, usa. On the program today, national affairs correspondent for the Nation, host of the weekly nation podcast the Time of Monsters. Jeet here will be joining us to look back on this week. Maybe look forward to next week. Meanwhile, Supreme Court hearing shows the absurdity of Trump's assault on the 14th Amendment, but he still may get those five votes. Meanwhile, House Republicans scramble to save their bill to cut Medicaid and snap and give tax cuts to the rich. And as more horrendous provisions of the big beautiful bill become known, Blue state Republicans fret that they can't deliver even more tax cuts for the rich. Trump wraps up his Gulf tour with undoubtedly a pocket full of kickbacks. The question is, what was the ask us and Iran get closer to a deal to get back to the deal we had eight years ago. Israel continues its slaughter in Gaza as Trump acknowledges Israel is starving children. Well, he sort of acknowledges it. FEMA head admits he has no plan for hurricane season. Good luck. Hurricane season states. Meanwhile, Department of Homeland Secretary Kristi Noem wants migrants to compete for citizenship via a reality show.
- [04:58]
Emma Vigland
Oh, so like a Hunger Games thing. Maybe they can all kill each other.
- [05:01]
Sam Seder
And whoever wins gets in the details. You gotta keep that. You get, you gotta sign an NDA probably before you read the the show bible and brainstorming.
- [05:12]
Emma Vigland
Come on.
- [05:13]
Sam Seder
Not a joke. I just want to know that that's actually a real headline. Walmart announces that the Trump tariffs will drive price increases. Kid rocks restaurant Nashville closes to protect for a night to protect its undocumented workers. I doubt he had anything to do with that. But nevertheless. And it's mask off for Grok as it loops on white genocide. Lastly, New Jersey transit engineers on strike. Trains are shut down. Thousand Starbucks employees also strike. And the staff at Butler Hospital, I am told in Providence, Rhode island went on strike yesterday. Or I should say, yeah, yesterday. Butler is an inpatient psychiatric hospital that provides mental health care to the Rhode island community. Thanks to listener Sarah to let us know that one all this and more on today's Majority Report.
- [06:24]
Emma Vigland
It is casual Friday.
- [06:28]
Sam Seder
Casual Friday indeed. Although there is a slight sense of tension because of course, of the big game tonight. We have not, I don't think this.
- [06:40]
Emma Vigland
Kind of thing, I mean, I wait till it's all over. I don't understand why you want to drag me into this. You know, this makes my magical thinking not that effective. Right. I have to.
- [06:52]
Sam Seder
Exactly.
- [06:53]
Emma Vigland
I can't say certain words. I can't acknowledge victories.
- [06:58]
Sam Seder
Yeah, we'll see.
- [07:00]
Emma Vigland
I mean, it's worked. It worked for me, with the Giants in the, in the last super bowl, they.
- [07:06]
Sam Seder
Yeah, well, that's why I want you to talk about it, because I'm hoping the Celtics went. All right, let's get into this. Yesterday at the Supreme Court, the question of birthright citizenship came up, and that was actually sort of the secondary question. Birthright citizenship, obviously, Provided by the 14th Amendment, a function of, sort of the bedrock, frankly, of the 14th Amendment, the bedrock of the United States as we know it today. This is part of the series of constitutional amendments that followed the Civil War, the 14th Amendment making, making it clear really, that the radical Republicans at the time wanted to make sure that we had a multicultural democracy where children of slaves born in the US Were considered citizens on par, at least in theory, with all others, and that anyone really in the country at that time who gave birth, their children would be citizens of this country. This has been, I mean, I want to say long standing, but I mean, really, what was it? 1866, 1867, constitutional law in this country. Donald Trump, on his first day of his administration, signed an executive order basically saying that it didn't apply to people who are in this country, who were born in this country if they were here without documentation or if they were here just visiting and.
- [09:04]
Emma Vigland
Or if you're on visas. I mean, I think that was part of it.
- [09:07]
Sam Seder
Visiting on a visa. Exactly.
- [09:09]
Emma Vigland
Yeah.
- [09:10]
Jeet Heer
Right.
- [09:10]
Sam Seder
And so the backstory to this is that the administration lost in multiple jurisdictions around the country. And in all those jurisdictions, the courts, the federal courts, issued a nationwide injunction against the administration using or, you know, deporting or considering people, non citizens, as a function of this executive order. And the Trump administration took this case to the Supreme Court to not resolve the question of birthright citizenship, but rather to address the question as to whether these courts had the ability to issue a nationwide injunction based on their findings about that. Instead, what the administration is arguing, it only applies. Their ruling should only apply to the single individual who brought the case. And I think it's pretty obvious, like, you know, there are times, and the justices, at least three or four of them, four of them, I would say, confidently made it clear that there are limits to the ability of, let's say, a district court judge to issue a nationwide injunction. But if there's ever a case in which you would see the validity of such a court issuing a nationwide injunction, this one makes the most sense because it's going to impact.
- [10:58]
Jeet Heer
It's.
- [10:58]
Emma Vigland
He's. That's basically said the argument is, is that the courts cannot issue injunctions. Period about the administration's actions because their actions don't affect one particular person. I guess in some very narrow instances, if you're pardoning someone, but they can't, they don't have any power over that. They're making policy decisions as the, as the executive branch. That's their argument is that the we have no jurisdiction over our actions, which is not true.
- [11:25]
Sam Seder
Here is. Let's start with a couple of clips. Let's start with the here's Elena Kagan asking if, if you weren't ever going to allow, if you, if you don't believe that these lower courts have the ability to issue this junction on this, why would the government ever, ever come to assess whether birthright citizenship is legal? Because they could go after it and keep going after it and keep going after this. Number three.
- [12:05]
Ketanji Brown Jackson
It sort of depends on the government's own actions in a case like this one, where one can expect that there is not going to be a great deal of disagreement among the lower courts. I mean, let's assume that you lose in the lower courts pretty uniformly as you have been losing on this issue and that you never take this question to us. I mean, I noticed that you didn't take the substantive question to us. You only took the nationwide injunction question to us. I mean, why would you take the substantive question to us? You're losing a bunch of cases. This guy over here, this woman over here. You know, they'll have to be treated as citizens, but nobody else will. Why would you ever take this case to us?
- [12:50]
Elena Kagan
Well, in this particular case, we have deliberately not presented the merits to this court on the question of the scope of remedies because, of course, that makes it a clean vehicle where the court doesn't have to look at the.
- [13:02]
Ketanji Brown Jackson
You're ignoring the import of my question. I'm suggesting that in a case in which the, the government is losing constantly, there's nobody else who's going to appeal. They're winning. It's up to you to decide whether to take this case to us. If I were in your shoes, there is no way I'd approach the Supreme Court with this case. So you just keep on losing in the lower courts. And what's supposed to happen to prevent that?
- [13:28]
Elena Kagan
Again, I respectfully disagree with that forecast of the merits. But in response to the question, what I would say is we have an adversarial system, and if the government is not, for example, not respecting circuit press precedent on the court's hypothetical in the second Circuit. Someone injured in the Second Circuit could take the case up. And they could say, look, the government is violating circuit precedent on the hypothetical multiple circuits.
- [13:48]
Ketanji Brown Jackson
That's the case. We're going to take somebody who says, who says, you know, after we've said that this all has to be done one by one by one, then we're going to take a case from somebody who objects to proceeding one by one by one.
- [14:07]
Sam Seder
I'm not. So, I mean, she's basically saying, what's to prevent the government from just, just keep doing what they're doing. They'll lose a handful of cases on, on the merits, but that'll only affect those individuals. Not everybody's going to take a case. Who's going to, who is going to come and take this case up to the Supreme Court? Like the, the idea that there would be, you know, they're not going to appeal if they win the case. And her, her hypothetical is all these people win the case. Here's Ketanji Brown Jackson.
- [14:48]
Emma Vigland
Well, I just want to say this to flesh out what she's saying, because it's important. Like, she's saying, you're not, the nature of the case that you're bringing is not looking at the question of birthright citizenship. The substance that is supposed to be being addressed by this. They are going after the usage of nationwide injunctions, which feels like a tangential point to the executive order that Donald Trump issued, which is basically trying to nullify one of the major parts of the 14th Amendment without a constitutional convention, because that would require two thirds of the states and 2/3 of the legislature to make that kind of overhaul of our Constitution.
- [15:29]
Sam Seder
The.
- [15:30]
Emma Vigland
So there is no substance here. And it's just odd that the lawyers almost recognize that even in their argument. And she's laying it bare for them.
- [15:37]
Sam Seder
But yeah, she's saying that the reason why you're not. I mean, the, the, the problem with the outcome that he wants, which is that these circuit courts cannot do nationwide injunctions based on this question, would mean that the question itself could never get resolved by the courts. Because even if they keep losing these circuit court cases and each individual. My name is Joe. I, My parents came from Mexico. They were here on vacation, and I was given birth or whatever it is. And so now I get to be a citizen. But the government can continually deny and deny, deny citizenship to a whole host of people. And if each individual has the ability to take a case, eventually they may reconstitute themselves. But the government has no incentive to ever go and actually get the question resolved. And if all these people are winning their cases, there's no appeal to their case to go higher up. And so that's the. That is the dilemma that she is talking about in this instance. And here's kbj, who I think, like, teases it out more.
- [16:46]
Elena Kagan
Yeah, the injuries of the plaintiff before them. That is.
- [16:50]
Kristi Noem
I understand. Let me just. Let me just turn your attention to one other thing, because the real concern, I think, is, is that your argument seems to turn our justice system, in my view, at least, into a catch me if you can, kind of regime from the standpoint of the executive, where everybody has to have a lawyer and file a lawsuit in order for the government to stop violating people's rights. Justice Kagan says, let's assume for the purpose of this that you're wrong about the merits, that the government is not allowed to stop, do this under the Constitution. And yet it seems to me that your argument says we get to keep on doing it until everyone who is potentially harmed by it figures out how to file a lawsuit, hire a lawyer, et cetera. And I don't understand how that is remotely consistent with the rule of law, you know, a system. And I appreciate that you go back to English common law and the chance to record court, but they had a different system. The fact that courts back in English Chancery couldn't enjoin the king, I think, is not analogous or indicative of what courts can do in our system, where the king, quote, unquote, the executive is supposed to be bound by the law, and the court has the power to say what the law is. And so one would think that the court could say, day, this conduct is unlawful and you have to stop doing it.
- [18:17]
Elena Kagan
I think the catch me if you can problem operates in the opposite direction, where we have the government racing from jurisdiction to jurisdiction, having to sort of clear the table in order to implement a new policy. A great example of this is in the Shilling litigation, where the military had a military readiness policy. It was universally enjoined by the DDC. It went up to the D.C. circuit, the D.C. circuit, stay that injunction to allow that policy to go into effect, and then one hour later, a district court on the other side of the country universally.
- [18:47]
Kristi Noem
Can I just ask you one final thing? Because this relates to also something that Justice Kagan said. I would think we'd want the system to move as quickly as possible to reach the merits of the issue and maybe have this court decide whether or not the government is entitled to do this under the law. Wouldn't having universal injunctions actually facilitate that? It seems to me that when the government is completely enjoined from doing the thing it wants to do, it moves quickly to appeal that, to get it to the Supreme Court. And that's actually what we would want. What I worry about is similar to what Justice Kagan points out, is that if the government is saying no lower court can completely enjoin, actually means that the government just keeps on doing the purportedly unlawful thing and it delays the ability for this court to reach the underlying issue.
- [19:45]
Elena Kagan
Percolation of novel sensitive constitutional issues is a merit of our system. It is not.
- [19:52]
Emma Vigland
All right, whatever percolation that is, that was just really fascinating because it ties in what I was almost about to say after the first clip, but I'm glad I held my tongue because this is an even example of they are trying to get the courts to voluntarily restrict their own power over the executive branch. They were successful with the unitary executive theory and they're pushing even harder. They tried with the Kilmar Abrego Garcia case and the Court ruled at 1am hey, you can't do this. You can't ship off these Venezuelan people here without due process. And they stop them from doing what they wanted to do unilaterally. So she brings that up, right, that they're, they're attacking the concept of injunctions because they can't attack the merits of the 14th Amendment. And it's also telling that they're using English common law to make this case because we go back to our conversation with Gil Duran about this whole vision of the king monarchical presidency. That's what they're trying to engender. That's what they're trying to create precedent for. Because there's quotes from 2022 from Clarence Thomas when he's been asked about Section 1 of the 14th Amendment, the Citizenship clause, and he basically has reiterated this, this was in 2022. The addition of a citizenship guarantee thus evidenced an intent to broaden the provision extending beyond recently freed blacks and incorporating a more general view of equality for Americans. He wrote that in 2022. Now the conservatives are going to try to say the that this only should apply to the descendants of freed black slaves because they're the originalists now. But Thomas understood this in 2022. So I think like even the administration knows that on the substance, they can't even call back to like what conservative justices said five years ago, three years ago, cuz there's no merit. So they're attacking the court system generally.
- [21:48]
Sam Seder
Exactly.
- [21:49]
Emma Vigland
Yeah.
- [21:49]
Sam Seder
All right, we got to take a quick break. And when we come Back Jeet here, national affairs correspondent for the Nation, host of the weekly nation podcast the Time of Monsters, will be joining us. First, a couple of words from our sponsors. Oh, this is, this stuff is great. Whenever I have any type of sore throat, I start to notice. Also I take this stuff, I use this stuff for tea and for sometimes in my yogurt and I get the what is the muesli instead of the granola? And Saul doesn't like that because it's not sweet. So I put in a little bit of Manicora Manokora honey and it does the job. And I've noticed lately that like, like facial places use this stuff and there's a reason for it.
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Jeet Heer
Okay.
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Sam Seder
All right, all right.
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Sam Seder
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- [28:13]
Emma Vigland
It'S.
- [29:04]
Sam Seder
We are back, Sam Cedar, Emma Vigland on the Majority Report. Joining us now, Jeet here, national affairs correspondent for the Nation, host of the weekly nation podcast the Time of Monsters. What did I did I get that?
- [29:19]
Jeet Heer
You got that right. You got that right.
- [29:20]
Sam Seder
Yeah. Look on your face.
- [29:22]
Jeet Heer
I think you have a future in radio. Let's just put it that way.
- [29:25]
Emma Vigland
I think.
- [29:29]
Jeet Heer
A good future, but a future.
- [29:31]
Sam Seder
Thank you. Jeet here. Welcome back to the program.
- [29:36]
Emma Vigland
I think G needs his own song. I think we're like at that point potentially at this level.
- [29:43]
Jeet Heer
Working class hero. John Lennon, if you're gonna.
- [29:48]
Sam Seder
We can't do. We have to do. We cannot do.
- [29:50]
Jeet Heer
You have to pay money.
- [29:52]
Sam Seder
Original song.
- [29:53]
Jeet Heer
Oh, okay. Yeah. So something public domain. Yeah. Maybe a minstrel song. I don't know.
- [30:00]
Sam Seder
We'll get to it. All right, so G, Donald Trump returning back from his Middle east tour. And it's really fascinating, this dynamic. We spoke to Jeremy Scahill earlier in the week specifically about his interview he did with one of Hamas top leaders and their perspective on the Trump administration and how their experience has been with the Trump administration. And much of it boils down to Trump is so transactional that he wants certain deals and God knows what the kickbacks are associated with these deals. You may have some ideas, but he wants these deals with the UAE and Saudi Arabia and Qatar perhaps. And their ask may be, you have to, we don't know what, but it may involve Palestinians in Gaza. And if it puts a dollar in Trump's pocket, I think that's basically what it takes. What's your sense of what's been going on?
- [31:17]
Jeet Heer
Yeah, no, I mean, I think to understand kind of what Trump's doing, we do kind of need the contrast with Biden. And I will say that in contrast to Biden's, I think gross incompetence and sort of like ideological policy of commitment to Zionism above all else, Trump, as bad as he is, kind of looks a little bit better. And I would say it's not just me that's saying this. Axios had this report from officials from the Biden administration, some of them speaking on the record, basically saying that they're in awe of what Trump is doing, which is that he's actually changing the dynamic in the Middle east, notably a US having direct negotiations with Hamas, which Biden was never willing to do. But beyond that, I think in the Broader Middle east, negotiating with Syria, beating the former head of the Syrian leader, who Trump said is a good looking guy, very strong, very attractive, very attractive. This is like a guy who is like, you know, former Al Qaeda, has in fact killed American troops.
- [32:35]
Emma Vigland
But he can bench press.
- [32:36]
Jeet Heer
He can bench press, but he is good looking. But more importantly, I mean, I actually think on a more cynical level, I actually do want an American leader who's willing to negotiate with foreign adversaries, which Trump is willing to do, but also opening up negotiations with Iran, which again, Biden was never willing to do. And actually, I mean, it looks like Trump's terms are basically going to be the same as Obama's, which is like a typical Trump thing, which is you tear up Obama's deal, then you renegotiate the exact same deal, but put Trump's name on it.
- [33:09]
Emma Vigland
But this is why it's a miracle that Biden didn't. We almost should thank Biden for being such a rabid Zionist is because if he had re entered into it, Trump would have scrapped it. But now he can can say the Iran deal's mine. If he actually follows through.
- [33:22]
Jeet Heer
If he follows through, we'll get to that. But okay, so this is on the broader Middle east, but also, I mean, he followed Biden's policies of trying to bomb Yemen, this crazy policy of thinking that that could actually work. But then he backtracked and basically said, you know, we've got what we want, which is again, like actually achieved nothing, but has basically agreed not to bomb Yemen and is going to continue to allow Yemen to bomb Israel, which is like an amazing thing. So all these things really do represent a shift in American foreign policy, I have to say. We have to start with the low bar of Joe Biden. Biden's policies were so disastrous that by contrast, Trump actually looks like he's actually willing to do something. And I think that it's not just like a matter of personal character. I think there is an ideological dimension which is that Biden, it's not just that he was a Zionist. He had this very Cold War mentality that American power is based on alliances. You want to build up NATO, you want to build up Aukus, you want to build up the Abraham Accords. Right. And you don't negotiate with enemies. Biden was unwilling to negotiate with Russia, Iran or China, really. Whereas Trump is exactly much more transactional and he does not see the world in terms of these ideological blocks and is much more willing to make deals. Now, these deals, I will say, if it's a more foreign policy that's more open to diplomacy. It's a diplomacy of corruption. It is basically, I actually think the leader of Syria, Ahmed Al Shara, I actually think very intelligently he promised to build a Trump Tower in Damascus, you know, which is like, you know, if you do that, you know you're going to get Trump to like lift sanctions.
- [35:17]
Emma Vigland
Yeah, Can I just jump in for a sec? Because I agree with you a lot, but I have a, maybe a bit of a difference in that. Like, you know, our Israel policy is already politics of corruption.
- [35:27]
Sam Seder
Right.
- [35:28]
Emma Vigland
So if Qatar is, is going to try to ingratiate Trump in a non traditional way and it stops the genocide of Palestinians, I'm all for it because we know that the next four years Trump's just going to try to get rich. But my, my concern is, is that like, even though he's breaking these traditional liberal international order like Cold War mentality, Natsac orthodoxy, things that I agree is actually very productive or maybe not productive, but it's a good thing in theory, like the, these deviations are worthless if he doesn't restrain Israel. Because we're now seeing Yesterday was the 77th anniversary of Nakba. The reports that we can get out of Gaza from the last 72 hours has been that the slaughter is unimaginable. People were posting their last words last night. And so I am all for deviating from D.C. orthodoxy on the Middle East. We should talk to everybody there. But my concern is, is that if Trump's only aims are his personal enrichment and he doesn't get the guarantees for the Palestinians, that then this is all for naught.
- [36:38]
Jeet Heer
Yeah, no, I absolutely, like, I mean, I agree with you like on all those points. On the point of like, you know, like it's already corrupt. You know, like when on this show, you know, we don't have to emphasize the role of sort of like AIPAC money and the national security establishment investment in Israel. And in some ways, I mean, I think who's that guy who's like a big donor to Harvard who like. So Ackman was basically complaining, like, you know, like how are we allowing Qatar to put so much money into our system to like, you know, have an outsized voice in foreign policy so that, I mean, for someone like Ackman that you're basically complaining that you're being outbid. That the.
- [37:23]
Sam Seder
That is exactly it. And this is the thing.
- [37:26]
Jeet Heer
No, no, yeah, yeah.
- [37:27]
Sam Seder
And I think I said this to Skahill earlier in the week. You know, I think from Trump's perspective And I don't want to give him too much credit. Right. I mean, because this is. I don't think Trump has an ideology. I don't even think he has necessarily a foreign policy. I just don't even know that you could actually articulate it as a foreign policy. You don't make these 180 degree changes without informing anybody, you know, whether, you know, the Houthis should be on a terrorist list or not, you know, to flip, you know, without sanctions.
- [38:05]
Emma Vigland
He didn't tell the State Department.
- [38:08]
Sam Seder
So, like, it's. It's clearly not a foreign policy in the way that anyone really articulates a foreign policy. It really is just sort of like you say, this is more like, you know, yeah, yeah, it's no more foreign policy than a Mafia don.
- [38:24]
Jeet Heer
Yeah.
- [38:25]
Sam Seder
Have urban plan. An urban plan, right. It's like, oh, we're gonna build a building here because you guys paid for it. And so.
- [38:34]
Jeet Heer
No, exactly. No, he is kind of. I mean, okay, you have to kind of distinguish, I think, maybe between Trump himself and the kind of like Republican Party, because I think that there is actually some interesting things going on which I think people on the left are loath to acknowledge, but are actually happening. But Trump himself, exactly, is a mafia boss. And he's actually. I mean, there's a very good article about how beloved he is in Saudi Arabia. And it's because he's the exact same guy as a Saudi apprentice. Like, you know, he's like totally transactional, non ideological, just wants to be rich, loves gaudy, loves gold. You know, a patriarchal, you know, all the same guy. So he's like, you know, like, Trump is actually, like, much more at home in Saudi Arabia or Qatar than he would be in Israel. Right. Like, he's not like a settler type. He's like, like, show me the money guy. No, no. Having said that, I mean, I think Emma was right and I want to actually underscore this point as well, because I mean, like, for me, the bottom line, like, morally and beyond morally, I think, for the sort of almost existential future of humanity is the sort of Palestinian issue. Because if we allow genocide, we're allowing a genocide to happen. And Trump is continuing that policy with the caveat that they're actually much more critical of Netanyahu than publicly critical than Biden ever was willing to be. So Witkoff has basically said we want to make a deal with Hamas, but the Israelis just want to have continued war and that they want to have, like, keep fighting in a way that doesn't make any sense to us because we don't actually see what the end game is. I mean, that's been true since October 2023. Witkoff is the first American official to say that. Now, having said that, they continue to finance Israel. The killings are at a level as high as they've ever been. Yeah. So I mean, the question is, how can we change that? What are the dynamics? The rift that's opening up between Netanyahu and Trump is small, but it's, it's significant. Right. Like, it is something that.
- [40:46]
Sam Seder
Let's play this clip. This is. See, I think this illustrates, this clip actually illustrates he's in. I don't. Where was he. Was he. He was in Doha and the Emir of Qatar is standing next to him. And it's quite clear, like, we only catch like the second half of the conversation there. Sort of, you can tell by the handle, the beginning of Trump's sort of like, statement here, that it comes out of the conversation he just had with the Emir of Qatar here. Let's play this. We're going to handle a couple of situations that you have here with some very serious situations. And we're looking at Gaza and, and we gotta get that taken care of. A lot of people are starving. A lot of people. There's a lot of bad things going on. We're gonna handle. He's turning, he, he's looking at the Emir of Qatar and saying there's a lot of, There's a couple of things that we gotta handle. And then he turns to the audience and says, you know, there's the, and it's like whatever the, you know.
- [41:51]
Jeet Heer
Well, whatever. The last person that Trump talked to is who he goes by. I mean, he is really a goldfish. But I think it's good to broaden up beyond Trump because there's within the Republican Party actual factions that have real serious differences on foreign policy. And this maybe gets at to why there might be a change, but it might also be sabotaged because there's an American first faction, which they're not like us. They like wars that you win, and America hasn't been winning wars. They're very, you know, like, they actually have turned against the forever wars. They don't want their people, you know, they don't want to get into a war with Iran. A lot of that is because they want to actually fight China. Right. Like, they want to, you know, husband the resources to fight China, whatever. The fact is. But there's also a continued faction of neoconservatives that Trump himself continues to hire now some of these people because of the factional battle, he's fired. Like Wallace, he fired. Right. So a lot of this really depends, I think, on who's the last, who's around Trump, who he's listening to. And right now, it does seem like some of the American first voices, in addition to these Middle Eastern despots who are willing to funnel huge amounts of money into Trump's pocket, they're giving him a counter point of view, which, considering the badness of American foreign policy, what they're actually pushing for is not that terrible compared to the status quo.
- [43:25]
Sam Seder
I mean, I agree with that, but I think we find ourselves in a really different position because, you know, like, as irrelevant as I generally feel in the context of any policy discussion, we, in particular, in this instance, I feel like, have no leverage. Like. Like the. In the sense that, you know, I think, like, in the future, we have leverage in terms of where Democrats are regarding Israel and requiring the question of Gaza and all of these questions. But in the context of what Donald Trump does.
- [44:03]
Jeet Heer
Yeah.
- [44:04]
Sam Seder
We are so far removed from being part of whatever calculus he has as to getting to what he wants. You know, like, we're not putting money into his pocket.
- [44:17]
Jeet Heer
Yeah.
- [44:17]
Sam Seder
You know, he's got a deal with Miriam Adelson, and he's going to deliver for her. He's going to give them the west bank, and he's going to give them, you know, and you get a bonus, just like I gave you, you know, whatever. It was the Golan Heights last time. You didn't even ask me. But on the other hand, I also just made a deal with the Amir.
- [44:36]
Jeet Heer
Yeah.
- [44:36]
Sam Seder
And so we got to give food to, you know, the Gazans, and, you know, Hamas can stay, but somebody else will be, you know, the president. I mean, that's the. The calculus. And there may be people who, you know, Laura Loomer can get in there, but I'm not prepared to do what Laura Loomer has done.
- [44:59]
Jeet Heer
My most controversial thing is, like, you know, like, you know, like, if Laura Loomer is the person that you need to take out the, you know, neoconservatives hawks out of Trump's inner circle, then, you know, like, you know, like Churchill said with Stalin, if he's the guy that could defeat Hitler, you know, the.
- [45:16]
Sam Seder
Difference is, is that, you know, Churchill, in the relationship between Churchill and Stalin, different.
- [45:26]
Jeet Heer
Yeah. We're not in alliance with Loomer. But I actually do think that in the context of. I mean, I think Trump actually does pay attention to American Public opinion in a way that someone like Biden did not. On foreign policy. And I actually think this is actually because he doesn't care.
- [45:40]
Sam Seder
It's really just about the. It's like I say, the calculation is maybe some element of public opinion, but the dollars. The dollars, yeah.
- [45:51]
Jeet Heer
I don't know. The dollars. Dollars are paramount. But, I mean, I think Trump actually has been sensitive to the fact that a large part of the American public has been sickened by the forever wars and, you know, sickened by what America has done in the Middle East. And this includes, like, you know, some fairly conservative people.
- [46:09]
Emma Vigland
The primary in 2016, he was going after Jeb Bush.
- [46:13]
Jeet Heer
Yeah, yeah. There's actually pretty good kind of like social science data that the areas in, like, Pennsylvania, Ohio, Michigan, and Wisconsin that Trump did the best on were the areas that had the highest military recruitment, that these were the areas where you had the most people that had been in deployment in the Middle east compared to elsewhere. So I actually do think that Trump's anti war rhetoric, anti, like, you know, as cynical as it is and, you know, like, as far as it is from what we want, he is actually sensitive to the fact that there's a large part of the American public that does not want a war with Iran. Right. And I actually think that this is the one small area where we do actually kind of have a role, because if Trump sees that it's not just like the Laura Loomers of the world, the Tucker Carlson, but there's a broader public that's, like, hostile to the wars in Iran and also concerned about what's happening in Gaza that actually does. He's, I think, sensitive enough a politician about public opinion that he will respond to this. And I have to say, public opinion among Republicans is changing on Israel as Well, especially under 50. You look at, like, this polling, good polling, showing that, like, Republicans under 50, like, you know, half of them are, like, hostile to Israel.
- [47:27]
Emma Vigland
50%?
- [47:28]
Jeet Heer
Yeah, yeah, 50%.
- [47:29]
Emma Vigland
So I actually think they're probably pretty anti Semitic, but.
- [47:33]
Jeet Heer
Yeah, well, they are. Yeah. I mean, a lot of that is coming, but that is the traditional Republican. I mean, you go back to, like, you know, Bush, senior, Nixon, Eisenhower. Yeah.
- [47:41]
Sam Seder
Baker famously said, they don't vote for us anyway.
- [47:44]
Jeet Heer
They don't vote for us anyways.
- [47:45]
Sam Seder
Yeah.
- [47:46]
Jeet Heer
And like, as ugly as that is, like, yeah, we have. America has been supporting a genocide. You know, like, the question is, how do we stop that? How do we stop that?
- [47:56]
Emma Vigland
I agree with you to an extent, too, where, like, I guess I'm contradicting Myself, But I'm saying there's a possibility here that perhaps he does have somewhat of an ideology that's in. We can look at the tariff policy and see maybe why he didn't go to Jerusalem in this last round. In the Middle east, he just kind of, he spurned the Israelis like he. But he's a national, he's American nationalist, is my point, in that he may be seeing, like in the way that he talked about Ukraine and Zelensky ripping us off with all the money that they're taking from us. Do you think he's perhaps using some of that analysis with Israel? And he's a, what have you done for me lately guy. Miriam Adelson donated to his campaign. Miriam Adelson didn't give him like a plane, A jet. Oh, a jet plane. For, for, for Mr. Trump. Like, that is. I think that he's. What have you done for me lately? And that's cash in his pocket, not cash in his campaign.
- [48:55]
Jeet Heer
Yeah, yeah, no, exactly. I mean, the amount of money that the air monarchies are putting into Trump's pocket, like through the AI and through other things. And it's the same people like Witkoff, Witkoff's son is running Trump's crypto business. So basically, you know, like Mary Madison, like, you know, like, she's yesterday's news in a lot of ways. And as rich as she is, you know, she cannot outbid these like, you know, oil rich autocracies that have like trillions of dollars to throw around and. Exactly. Trump's analysis, it's both the nationalism and the mafia boss. I don't think those two things are different. And it is the case that Israel is a net loss for the United States. A net loss certainly in terms of like, you know, America gives a lot of money to Israel, whereas, like Saudi Arabia buys a lot of weapons, like just the profit. But beyond that, there's a net loss of, you know, like, American perception of America in the world, which is a bit more amorphous. I think, you know, people are sensitive to the fact that, you know, like, what Israel is doing is very unpopular. I, I would, I don't think like this, you know, the Saudi crown prince cares at all about the Palestinians, but he knows his people care. And I think that all the other people in the Middle east know that, you know, they have to at least make a show of concern about this. They cannot normalize relationships with Israel while this is going on. So I think that that gives a bit of leverage. And as I said, I think, you know, to me, the real battleground is American public opinion that if there's enough public anger and hostility towards Israel, not just among, like, you know, like the left, you know, but like, sort of like middle America that shares this kind of perception that, like, what the hell are we doing? We're financing a genocide that is going to create levels of hatred for us like, that the world has never seen. And what are we getting from this? And, you know, like, that crude, you know, transactional stuff, as bad as it is, and I have a lot of critiques of it is better than, you know, Biden's ideological Cold War fantasies and Zionism. Right. Like. Like there's at least some possibility. But I wanted to say, going back to something Emma said, there is one proviso, which is I don't know if Grump can pull this off, because everything we've seen from his first term is that when push comes to shove, he doesn't have the tenacity, the knowledge. You actually have to know what you're doing to change American foreign policy. You have to be like a Kissinger or even like an Obama. With the Iran nuclear deal and opening to Cuba, you have to have a strength of character that challenges the bureaucracy, because there's a national security bureaucracy that's committed to war. And there's also, like, all these think tanks within the Republican Party. And my big worry is not so much Trump is going to have a corrupt foreign policy, because it's already corrupt. My big worry is that whatever positive he's going to be doing is going to be undermined by the fact that he has all these Republican appointees that are going to sabotage him as they did in his first term.
- [52:00]
Sam Seder
I, I think that to some extent, Project 2025 was geared towards inhibiting. I mean, and I think probably the, the Blob, as it were, is probably the most entrenched. The national security is the most entrenched of non loyalists, as it were.
- [52:23]
Jeet Heer
Yeah.
- [52:23]
Sam Seder
But I also think that, like, really it comes down to what is the ask. Like, you say, Mohammed bin Salman doesn't care about the Palestinians, but his people do. And there's a lot of leaders around the country, I mean, I should say around the region who are in a similar dynamic. And it really just comes down to, you know, how much do they need from Trump to justify recognizing Israel.
- [52:55]
Jeet Heer
Yeah.
- [52:55]
Sam Seder
And then when they do that, then it's just like money starts flowing. I am convinced in both directions. And I'm not even talking nationally. I am talking, like, into Trump's friends and buddies. And that's it. And at the end of the day, that, to me, seems to be going to be the determinant. He is going to. He is not going to walk away from, you know, a billion dollars that is going to go to his buddies or multiple billions of dollars that are going to be spread around, you know, Team Trump.
- [53:28]
Jeet Heer
Yeah, he's. His family. His family. I mean, look, like the scale of the money of this crypto stuff is, like, unbelievable. Like, it is like, you know, I mean, the only thing that crypto allows you to do is, like, you know, financial transactions that cannot be monitored. Right. And this is like, this is the value of it, and this is like, you know, like, it's not an accident that Witkoff's son, Zach Witkoff, made the announcement at. I think it was doho of this big new deal and that we're getting to see billions of dollars of Arab oil, emirate money flowing into crypto to bolster almost directly to Trump family pockets and to Witc family pockets. So it is, like, openly corrupt. But having said that, when has. The bottom line is American foreign policy in the Middle east has been terrible going back to Franklin Roosevelt.
- [54:27]
Sam Seder
Like you say, Biden was ideological in it. There's been others who. There's that, without a doubt. It's all. So much of our foreign policy is almost definitionally, whose resources are we going to extract for, you know, a certain class of people, et cetera, et cetera. But there were ideological constraints and more, it seems to me, more constraints by public opinion and sort of conventional wisdom and whatnot. And I think Trump just, at the end of the day, it's like, if you hit my number, that's what it's about. Write the number on the paper, and if the number looks good to me, we're going to make this happen. And that's it. And that's all he cares about.
- [55:13]
Jeet Heer
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Having said, I mean, where does it leave? For me, the bottom line is, where does it leave? You know, like, the Palestinians, I don't know if the Arab Emirates are going to be the major determining factor. I actually think at the bottom of the day, like, the determining factor that will ultimately restrain Israel is public opinion. And in the Middle east, because these are all dictatorships, that has a limit. But I don't think there's less. I think less of a limit in Europe and in America and frankly, in large parts of Asia, like, if Israel becomes, like, seen as a pariah state that you cannot. Yeah, that's where we're heading. That's where we're heading. And I think that's the only way out. That's the only way out of this. What I think is like, to me, the most evil thing that like the Western countries have been involved with in many decades, like going back at least to the Vietnam War. Like, it's just, how do we get out of this hell?
- [56:08]
Sam Seder
I'd put a rock up there, too.
- [56:10]
Jeet Heer
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't know. But it's up there. It's up there. It's one of the top, you know. Exactly. Yeah.
- [56:18]
Emma Vigland
And we don't have the true death toll in front of us. I mean, it's like the quadruple five times what's being.
- [56:24]
Jeet Heer
Yeah.
- [56:25]
Emma Vigland
Those numbers.
- [56:25]
Sam Seder
And I would also say the amount of information that we have as a people is so much greater than it was during Iraq.
- [56:34]
Jeet Heer
Yeah.
- [56:36]
Sam Seder
And you know, because of social media and because of the nature of Palestine and all that, it makes it that much more egregious in many respects.
- [56:45]
Jeet Heer
Yeah.
- [56:47]
Sam Seder
It's a lot harder to deny the horrors that are going on there.
- [56:53]
Jeet Heer
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And like, as I said, I don't have much hope for Trump. I actually think he's going to be like, with the Iran deal, as you can already see Rubio and others putting in poison pills that are going to make it impossible, even though Trump, I think, has the right ideas and Trump doesn't have the character to push something like that through, I think. But having said that, to the extent that Trump is breaking down the consensus, making it more possible for politicians to criticize Israel, make it more possible for people to say, like, we should be talking to Iran, you know, we should be talking, you know, like, we should try to make Syria a success. Right. Like we should. We. Why the hell are we bombing Yemen? To the extent that Trump has like changed that and these are all things that Biden was on the wrong side of. Yeah. You know, like that's the net positive in a very bad, bad situation.
- [57:46]
Sam Seder
Let's turn to domestically what's going on, because the big beautiful bill and you know, they were supposed to start doing, they were, they were supposed to look to pass this out of the budget committee today. They were meeting this morning. I don't know if we have an update on that, guys, but it is, there's a lot being written about how like the bill is in danger because conservatives, you know, want to inflict more pain on people than, you know, the conservatives want to turn it the pain on low income people to 11, whereas the moderates only want to turn it to 10. And, but this is, I mean, some of the provisions of this are nuts. The amount that they're cutting from snap, the amount that they're cutting from Medicaid, they're getting rid of, like, a ban on states regulating AI for 10 years so that nobody can do this. They're getting rid of the IRS direct file, rolling back a lot of the green tax credits from the IRA stripping. I think about 2 million children will get less money under the, and the bill was blocked just now in the Budget Committee, I'm seeing, which I find fascinating because I am in camp. Of course they're going to pass this thing by hook or crook. But what's your sense, G. Yeah, I.
- [59:29]
Jeet Heer
Mean, actually, despite all this internal chaos, they actually have been pretty good about getting the stuff that they wanted, partially because they're all beholden to Trump. And I think it'll come down to him, you know, like, say he wants it or doesn't want it having. I mean, I think to me the larger politics is like, you know, like, the Democrats needing to really run on this because I actually do think that this is the stuff that will, you know, win them back the House and possibly the Senate. And I think that, you know, you really need to emphasize that, you know, like, this is a party that is totally beholden to sort of like, you know, like oligarchy and big finance. And, you know, it kind of maybe underscores the, I mean, like, the sort of, you know, Bernie Sanders message and why that has to be the core of what the party itself goes through in the next two years. Because otherwise, I mean, I like, you know. Yeah, I don't see what else the party does.
- [60:31]
Sam Seder
Wow. The vote was 16 to 21. So they lost like five. At least five. That's pretty significant.
- [60:40]
Jeet Heer
Is it on the right or was it on the moderates?
- [60:42]
Sam Seder
It was, I think it was like the, it's the, I think it was the conservatives. They're calling it the fiscal conservatives. Ralph Norman, Andrew Clyde and Josh Breckin.
- [60:55]
Jeet Heer
All the panels Democrats.
- [60:56]
Sam Seder
Yes.
- [60:56]
Emma Vigland
There you go.
- [60:57]
Jeet Heer
Yeah. The hard lines. Okay, Well, I, I mean, yeah, I mean, this is already like incredibly hardline Bill. Right. Which is like, but I, I, I mean, I, I, you know, like, to me, the, the larger politics of this are like, you know, how do you fight this? How do you, like, position this? And I, I think that, like, you know, I think a big mistake that they made was trying to distinguish between MAGA Republicans and, you know, the more, you know, sensible, moderate Republicans. Whereas I think what you basically have to say is you already have. You know, it's just between like very hard line people and insane freakazoid hardline people. Right. Like, you just have to. This is the, like, even their most moderate position is like, like unacceptable. And it also gives lie to all the claims of being like a working class party. And yeah, I mean, like, to me, all this budget stuff just underscores, you know, the need to have a strong anti oligarchy message. Right.
- [61:57]
Emma Vigland
Yeah.
- [61:58]
Sam Seder
The interesting thing, apparently the dynamic. I'm sorry, the, the dynamic is that the moderate. Oh, sorry.
- [62:07]
Emma Vigland
Yeah, the moderate.
- [62:10]
Sam Seder
The moderates here, the moderates here want to. Are worried about losing their. Yeah, yeah, their, their, their, their, their races, but the conservatives, I think, feel we're already going to lose the House, so let's just really do it.
- [62:26]
Jeet Heer
Yeah, that is an interesting dynamic. And again, you know, thinking broadly, broad strokes, you know, like the aoc, Bernie, like going to all those districts, you know, that are purplish districts where you have moderate Republicans who could be threatened. I mean, that is the way to go. Like, just make these people feel the pain and make them like rise, you know, like, you know, you have to like mobilize public opinion. You have that. You have like a sense that, you know, this. I don't think anybody really wants this. Like, this is like, to me, this is not like, you know, 51 party imposing on. Against 49. This is like 20% imposing on 80%. Right. And so the sheer extremism of this, like, has to be underscored, but it has to be like, you know, this is what the Republican Party is like. This is like, you know. Yeah.
- [63:21]
Sam Seder
It'S going to be interesting to see if they can pull this off because I think the, the sort of other dynamic that people should keep in mind is when Elon Musk screwed up so badly in Wisconsin, that really changed the nature of everything. And I want to remind people that, you know, James Carvel's. Carvel's, you know, creed. Creed to cur, if you will, of do nothing and wait for the Virginia elections. He didn't, in that, in that famous piece that he said, you know, do nothing. He did not bring up Wisconsin. In Wisconsin, if this bill falls apart, it is because of Wisconsin, without a doubt.
- [64:09]
Jeet Heer
Yeah, absolutely. I think Wisconsin. And I also think, you know, as I said, the sort of Sanders AOC tour, you know, putting the heat on moderate Republicans, which again, I think it's the same as what we were talking about with Israel. Like, I actually want to caution against any sort of Defeatism or the sense that, like, public opinion, like, doesn't matter. I think that they are sort of like pressure points where things can shift. Yeah.
- [64:33]
Emma Vigland
So, I mean, to be frank, the Biden administration was less responsive to public opinion in part because we now are getting more and more reporting about his condition. And like, that is. It seems like you have Jake Sullivan being asked about it and just weaseling out. God, you can tell about that guy's in national security and there was no leadership.
- [64:58]
Jeet Heer
Yeah, yeah.
- [64:59]
Emma Vigland
Why do. Why would those. Why would those ghouls from the national security establishment care about public opinion? They've never cared about public opinion. It's all about remaking the world in this insane vision that that would be messianic if it wasn't, like, so attached to capitalism. And that's how they ran our foreign policy. It's not true that that foreign policy is disconnected from public opinion. I saying this because I got engaged in politics because of the Iraq war. It was my number one thing that I cared about as a teenager, the torture of people. It really engaged me. And I think that there are young people that, like, the administration has now done untold damage to the party brand in two ways. And they're both about lack of Democratic responsiveness. One, about the slaughter in Gaza, and two, about the Biden administration not holding a primary and him not stepping aside. It's created, as Russ said before the show, a credibility crisis for the party that is really deep and only being undone by Bernie and aoc.
- [66:09]
Jeet Heer
Yeah, no, exactly, exactly. And I mean, it also speaks to the current debates within the dnc. Like, the Democratic Party itself at a leadership level is very unrespons, does not want to be responsive to public opinion. And I think that until we can break that logjam, and I think, like, you know, the sort of Schumer Carver line, like, you know, playing dad until Trump becomes so unpopular that we can do something, kind of speaks to that as well, because it is like an unwillingness to try to, like, mobilize people. And, like, they don't, you know, like, for a certain faction of the party, like an actual mobilized public opinion is bad because you're going to get people that will want change and will want.
- [66:50]
Sam Seder
Yes.
- [66:51]
Jeet Heer
Yeah.
- [66:51]
Sam Seder
So here is a perfect example right here of Mark Alford, Republican from Missouri, is on cnn, and this is the fear that they have. Like, we used to have Elon Musk basically saying, you follow Trump's lead or I'm going to dump $10 million into your primary. I'm going to beat you and then he showed in Wisconsin that he was a little bit of a paper tiger, that his money, you know, he has endless supplies of money. But when it, when people know it's his money, it actually works, I think against.
- [67:28]
Jeet Heer
Elon Musk can't even get Grok to follow the party line about white genocide in South Africa. So like his ability to slay public opinion seems dubious.
- [67:39]
Sam Seder
They may want to hire a couple more engineers over there and not be so efficient in the way that they're trying to teach Grok. But here's Representative Mark alford on with CNN's Boris Sanchez. Because one in five Missourians are covered by Medicaid, roughly how many of them in your view would be deemed ineligible for these benefits or in your view are committing fraud? Do you have an estimate, a rough number? It, I do not, I do not have any numbers on that.
- [68:12]
Jeet Heer
I know that some people in the.
- [68:14]
Sam Seder
Show me state are concerned. But it is a show me state and we're going to ask people to.
- [68:18]
Jeet Heer
Show me, show me why you should.
- [68:20]
Sam Seder
Be using taxpayer monies for, for Medicaid that's funneled from the federal government down to the state level. Look, we are not dis, we're not empty of compassion. That is not what it's about. I am comparing passionate.
- [68:34]
Jeet Heer
Even though the worst country around, we.
- [68:36]
Sam Seder
Are on the edge of going over the cliff from the debt that we have, $36 trillion. We've got to get this reconciliation passed. We've got to get the tax Cuts and jobs act renewed and extended and make it permanent.
- [68:50]
Emma Vigland
Oh my God. It's the same stuff. It's.
- [68:54]
Sam Seder
How do you say that with a straight face? Unless you actually don't know that. If you think that we're going off a cliff because we have all this debt. How do you in the same breath say we got to have these tax cuts?
- [69:06]
Jeet Heer
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [69:07]
Sam Seder
How do you say that exactly?
- [69:11]
Jeet Heer
Well, I mean it is a supply side ideology. I mean they think that this will generate more growth despite all the evidence of history. So yeah, I mean, but I think on a larger like level, I mean there, I think the Republicans have a real problem here and a real vulnerability because of Trump. They actually have gotten many more non college voters and they've gotten many more voters who are dependent on things like Medicaid and Medicare and Social Security. And so like, I think like, you know, like if one had a real opposition party that was committed to try to gain power, like they would absolutely seize upon this as like, you know, the Achilles heel of Trumpism. And to say, like, you know, like, you know, you ran as like, you know, we're going to be represent the forgotten American. And now you're going after, you're going to do all these policies are going to hurt. Absolutely. The people who voted for you. I mean, that's what, that's the message you got to go forward with.
- [70:11]
Sam Seder
They're going, I think they're going to, I think the Democrats are going doing that. But the real test, it seems to me, if you want to, it's one thing to say, you know, those voters are going to say these guys are not operating in our interest. And when talking about, you know, the Republican lawmakers who pass this thing, they won't blame Trump, I don't think, but they will blame the Republicans. Yeah, but if the Democrats next time they're in power.
- [70:37]
Jeet Heer
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, I mean, that's the other thing. I mean, which we, you know, like, aside from, you know, the sort of progressive party people aren't talking about, you actually have to like, I mean, Democrats have lost a huge amount of trust because they spent four years defending this, like, senile man that like, you know, who was shut out of reality and they've done other things. You actually have to have like an alternative program that will, you know, like, not just like we're not the Republicans, but we'll actually offer people like a positive vision of the future, you know, like, you know, I think that's where the, to me, that's where the interesting political battle of the next few years is going to come from. Like, can we shift the Democrats enough to actually have the message that they need to win or are they going to be so committed to, you know, big money and, you know, abundance agenda or whatever the hell they're going to come up with that. Sure.
- [71:32]
Sam Seder
If we go out there and tell people that we're going to change a couple of zoning codes.
- [71:37]
Jeet Heer
Yeah, yeah. We're going to fix the zoning laws and everything will be fine.
- [71:45]
Emma Vigland
I'm so glad we got granular today.
- [71:48]
Sam Seder
Exactly.
- [71:49]
Jeet Heer
Yeah. I mean, there's like, you know, like there's A going back 20 years, a lot of anger, justified anger in America. And unless we have a politics that can address that, I think, I mean.
- [72:05]
Sam Seder
In more specifically, it has to be both a, both a set of policies and rhetoric that talks about structural change.
- [72:18]
Jeet Heer
Yeah.
- [72:18]
Sam Seder
Because I think people understand, you know, when we went out there, when the Democrats went out there and tried to run on retaining democracy.
- [72:31]
Jeet Heer
Yeah.
- [72:31]
Sam Seder
It failed because people perceived the structure of our democracy or whatever that Word meant to people was not positive. They weren't getting the results they wanted and at the very least rhetorically. And if you want to maintain power long term, you need to do this legislatively. There needs to be structural reform. Yeah, Jeet here. Always a pleasure.
- [72:54]
Jeet Heer
I know your kids are. Yeah, they're hovering around there. Yeah. This is a PD day. Canada, with our wonderful union laws give teachers a lot of time off with PD day. So majority report viewers, tell the kids.
- [73:09]
Sam Seder
I apologize for dominating you this long and we'll talk to you soon.
- [73:14]
Jeet Heer
Okay, great. Talk soon.
- [73:15]
Emma Vigland
Thanks, sheet.
- [73:16]
Jeet Heer
Okay, bye.
- [73:17]
Sam Seder
All right, folks, we're going to head into the fun half of the program wherein we have some fun and maybe we'll take some phone calls. I always say that. We'll read some of your IMs, we'll play some clips. Got some very fun clips.
- [73:40]
Jeet Heer
Talk about how women aren't attractive enough.
- [73:42]
Sam Seder
To Kid Rock, apparently.
- [73:43]
Emma Vigland
Oh, yeah, that'll be really fun.
- [73:47]
Sam Seder
Women are not attractive enough to Kid Rock. They seem attractive to me. I don't know. I don't know what's going on with Kid Rock. We'll have to check into that. Folks, don't forget it's your support that makes this show possible. You can become a member jointhemajorityreport.com when you do, you not only get the free show free of commercials, but you also get the fun half. And you can IM the show. You can call the show even if you're not a member. Of course, we do not screen our calls. So we take calls from anybody. If you're a right winger or libertarian or a Zionist or abundance Democrat, an abundance Democrat or even in like an abundance Republican because there seems to be a few of those as well. If you are unpaid or paid, if you're getting some of that sweet $120 million from the AI altruistic foundation or whatever it is, by all means call it 646-257-3920. Also, don't forget, just coffee, co op, fair trade coffee, hot chocolate. Use your coupon code. Majority get 10 off. Matt, left reckoning.
- [75:05]
Jeet Heer
Yeah, left reckoning. Andrew Hartman on talking about his great.
- [75:07]
Sam Seder
New book Karl Marx in America, which.
- [75:09]
Jeet Heer
Is, I think essential for any American who consider themselves a Marxist.
- [75:13]
Sam Seder
And Michael Burns talking more about philosophy.
- [75:16]
Jeet Heer
And masculinity, the crisis of masculinity and.
- [75:19]
Sam Seder
The turn we're seeing to religion from.
- [75:20]
Jeet Heer
Folks like Russell Brandon and more aggressively, Charlie Kirk.
- [75:27]
Sam Seder
See you in the fun half. Three months from now, six months from now, nine months from now. And I don't think it's going to be the same as it looks like in six months from now. And I don't know if it's necessarily going to be better six months from now than it is three months from now, but I think around 18 months out, we're gonna look back and go like, wow. What? What is that going on? It's nuts. Wait a second.
- [75:54]
Jeet Heer
Hold on.
- [75:55]
Sam Seder
Hold on for a second. Emma. Welcome to the program. What is up, everyone? Fun pack. No. Me.
- [76:09]
Kristi Noem
You did it.
- [76:10]
Sam Seder
Fun half.
- [76:11]
Emma Vigland
Let's go, Brandon.
- [76:12]
Sam Seder
Let's go, Brandon. Fun path. Bradley, you want to say hello?
- [76:18]
Jeet Heer
Sorry to disappoint everyone. I'm just a random guy.
- [76:21]
Sam Seder
It's all the boys today. Fundamentally false.
- [76:24]
Emma Vigland
No. I'm sorry. Women.
- [76:25]
Sam Seder
Stop talking for a second and let me finish.
- [76:28]
Kristi Noem
Where is this coming from?
- [76:29]
Emma Vigland
Dude?
- [76:29]
Sam Seder
But dude, you want to smoke this?
- [76:32]
Emma Vigland
7A.
- [76:33]
Sam Seder
Yes.
- [76:36]
Jeet Heer
Hi, me.
- [76:38]
Sam Seder
Is this me? Yes.
- [76:42]
Jeet Heer
Is this me? Is it me?
- [76:45]
Sam Seder
It is you.
- [76:48]
Jeet Heer
If it's me.
- [76:50]
Sam Seder
If it's me, I think it is.
- [76:51]
Jeet Heer
You who is, you.
- [76:54]
Sam Seder
Know, sound every single freaking day. What's on your mind?
- [76:59]
Jeet Heer
We can discuss Fremont Pockets and we can discuss capitalism.
- [77:02]
Sam Seder
I'm gonna go Skyline Libertarians.
- [77:04]
Jeet Heer
They're so stupid.
- [77:05]
Sam Seder
Though common sense says of course.
- [77:07]
Emma Vigland
Gobbledygook.
- [77:08]
Sam Seder
We nailed him.
- [77:10]
Emma Vigland
So what's 79 plus 21?
- [77:12]
Sam Seder
Challenge man. Positively quivering. I believe 96. I want to say. 8 5, 7, 2, 1 0, 35 5, 011 half.
- [77:20]
Jeet Heer
3, 8, 9, 11.
- [77:21]
Emma Vigland
For instance, $3,400. $1900.
- [77:24]
Sam Seder
5, 4, $3 trillion dollars.
- [77:27]
Jeet Heer
Sold.
- [77:28]
Sam Seder
It's a zero sum game.
- [77:30]
Emma Vigland
Actually. You're making me think less.
- [77:31]
Sam Seder
But let me say this poop, you.
- [77:35]
Emma Vigland
Call it satire, Sam.
- [77:36]
Jeet Heer
Goes to satire.
- [77:37]
Sam Seder
On top of it all. My favorite part about you is just like every day, all day, like everything you do. Without a doubt. Hey, buddy, we see you. All right, folks, folks, folks.
- [77:53]
Emma Vigland
It's just the week being weeded out. Obviously.
- [77:56]
Sam Seder
Yeah. Sun's out, guns out. I, I, I don't know, but you should know, people just don't like to entertain ideas anymore. I have a question. Who cares? Our chat is enabled, folks. I love it.
- [78:15]
Emma Vigland
I do love that.
- [78:18]
Sam Seder
Gotta jump. Gotta be quick. I gotta jump.
- [78:20]
Jeet Heer
I'm losing it, bro.
- [78:24]
Sam Seder
2 o' clock, we're already late and the guy's being a dick. So screw him. Sent to a gulag.
- [78:31]
Emma Vigland
Outrageous.
- [78:31]
Sam Seder
Like, what is wrong with you?
- [78:35]
Jeet Heer
Love you. Bye.
- [78:37]
Sam Seder
Love you.
- [78:38]
Jeet Heer
Bye.
- [78:38]
Sam Seder
Bye.