2517 - Trump Administration Thuggery & The Coopting of the Military w/ Jeet Heer

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Majority Report with Sam Seder

Episode 2517 - Trump Administration Thuggery & The Co-opting of the Military w/ Jeet Heer
Release Date: June 13, 2025
Host: Sam Seder
Guest: Jeet Heer, National Affairs Correspondent for The Nation Magazine and Host of the Nation Magazine Podcast Time of Monsters

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1. Introduction and Episode Context

In this special pre-taped episode of The Majority Report: Casual Friday, host Sam Seder addresses listeners amidst unforeseen circumstances. Due to Emma Vigeland’s wedding and Sam’s dental procedure involving novocaine, the episode lacks live interactions such as phone calls or listener messages. This episode focuses intensely on recent aggressive actions by the Trump administration, particularly concerning immigration policies and the manipulation of military forces.

Notable Quote:

"[00:02] Sam Seder: ...we are broadcasting live two tape steps from the industrially ravaged Gowanus Canal in the heartland of America, downtown Brooklyn, USA."

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2. The Incident Involving Senator Alex Padilla

A central focus of the episode is the disturbing incident where Senator Alex Padilla was forcibly ejected and handcuffed during a press conference held by Kristi Noem in Los Angeles. The episode includes an audio clip depicting the aggressive removal of Padilla, raising serious concerns about the administration’s respect for congressional oversight and democratic norms.

Notable Quote:

"[06:32] Jeet Heer: Sir."
"[06:35] Jeet Heer: Senator Alex Padilla. I have questions for the secretary because..."

Analysis: Sam emphasizes the significance of this event, noting the blatant disrespect and physical intimidation faced by an elected senator attempting to perform his duty of oversight. The treatment of Padilla is portrayed as a stark indicator of escalating authoritarian tactics within the Trump administration.

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3. Authoritarianism and the Military's Role

In conversation with Jeet Heer, Sam delves into how the Trump administration is increasingly viewing both the military and law enforcement as personal tools rather than institutions meant to serve the nation impartially. Jeet discusses the potential for the military to become a private praetorian guard for Trump, eroding the traditional checks and balances fundamental to American democracy.

Notable Quote:

"[27:17] Jeet Heer: ...Trump is running the government like a warlord... the military into a private praetorian guard for the President."

Key Points:

• Historical Comparisons: References to actions reminiscent of the pre-Civil War era, such as the manhandling of senators echoing past violent political confrontations.
• Military Loyalty: Concerns about purges within the military to ensure loyalty to Trump, especially targeting officers opposed to his policies on diversity and inclusion.
• Symbolic Speech at Fort Bragg: Jeet highlights a speech at Fort Bragg where soldiers were vetted for Trump support, emphasizing the politicization of the military.

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4. Democratic Party Leadership and Internal Conflicts

The episode critiques Democratic leadership, particularly figures like Chuck Schumer and Hakeem Jeffries, for their inability to effectively counteract Trump's authoritarian moves. Jeet Heer argues that Democratic leaders are either not taking decisive action or are themselves compromised, resulting in a lack of robust opposition to the administration's overreach.

Notable Quote:

"[37:21] Sam Seder: I am very angry as soon as we pass the Genius act. I am going to speak to John Thune about this."

Discussion Points:

• Ineffectiveness of Leadership: Democratic leaders are portrayed as passive or overly preoccupied with partisan gains rather than addressing the systemic threats posed by the Trump administration.
• Internal Struggles: Jeet mentions the internal "two-front war" within the Democratic Party, battling both Trump’s authoritarianism and their own leadership issues.
• Potential for Reform: Calls for significant changes within the Democratic Party to better represent and protect their base and uphold democratic principles.

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5. Economic Policies: The Laffer Curve and Tax Cuts

The conversation shifts to economic policies, specifically critiquing the reliance on the Laffer Curve and supply-side economics advocated by figures like Arthur Laffer. Sam and Jeet argue that the theory fails empirically, citing the failed tax cut experiment in Kansas as evidence that such policies do not deliver on promises of increased revenue through economic growth.

Notable Quote:

“[79:03] Jeet Heer: ...Art Laffer was one of the architects of supply side economics...”

Key Points:

• Kansas Tax Cut Failure: The Kansas experiment under Governor Sam Brownback, who adopted Laffer-inspired tax cuts, led to severe budget deficits and cuts in essential services, undermining the theory's validity.
• Dynamic Scoring Critique: The administration's push for dynamic scoring based on the Laffer Curve is dismissed as discredited and historically ineffective.
• Empirical Evidence Against Theory: Multiple studies and expert opinions are cited to debunk the notion that tax cuts inherently lead to increased economic activity sufficient to offset revenue losses.

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6. Predictions and Future Implications

Jeet Heer and Sam Seder express deep concerns about the trajectory of American democracy, warning of potential civil unrest and the perilous co-opting of the military to enforce an authoritarian agenda. They draw parallels to historical events, suggesting that without substantial resistance and reform, the United States could face severe democratic backsliding.

Notable Quote:

“[66:32] Sam Seder: I watched the first season. I'm waiting on the second season because I'm trying to get my son to watch it.” “[66:37] Jeet Heer: Don't spoil like a protest that's, like, highly relevant.”

Discussion Points:

• Civil War Analogies: Comparisons to pre-Civil War America highlight the seriousness of current political tensions.
• Potential for Further Escalation: Concerns about the administration’s planning for forceful crackdowns on protests, possibly mirroring historical insurrection responses.
• Democratic Responsibility: Emphasis on the need for Democratic leaders to take proactive steps to counter authoritarian measures and restore democratic integrity.

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7. Closing Remarks

Sam Seder concludes the episode by reiterating the severity of the Trump administration's actions and the critical need for vigilance and action to preserve American democratic norms. Despite the absence of live interactions, the discussion with Jeet Heer provides a comprehensive analysis of the threats posed by the current political climate.

Notable Quote:

“[97:55] Jeet Heer: The president warns that any protests on...”

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Conclusion

This episode of The Majority Report presents a fervent critique of the Trump administration’s authoritarian tendencies, the misuse of military forces, and the internal struggles within the Democratic Party to effectively counter these threats. Through an in-depth conversation with Jeet Heer, Sam Seder underscores the urgent need for democratic resilience and proactive leadership to safeguard the nation’s foundational principles.

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Note: This summary excludes sponsor messages, introductory, and concluding non-content segments to focus solely on the substantive discussions and analyses presented in the episode.

Transcript

[Sam Cedar]

The Majority Report with Sam Cedar where every day's casual Friday. That means Monday is casual. Monday, Tuesday casual Tuesday, Wednesday casual hump day. Thursday casual Thirs, that's what we call it. And Friday casual Shabbat. The Majority Report with Sam Cedar. It is Friday, June 13, 2025. My name is Sam Cedar. This is the five time award winning majority report. We are broadcasting live two tape steps from the industrially ravaged Gowanus Canal in the heartland of America, downtown Brooklyn, usa. On the program today, Jeet here, national affairs correspondent for the Nation magazine, host of the Nation magazine podcast Time of Monsters. Also on the program today, Senator Alex Padilla forcibly ejected and then cuffed in an attempt to ask a question at a press conference of Kristi Noemi. Pete Hagseth on the Hill won't commit to obeying courts or to not invading Greenland. Just gotta worry about staying sober. Exactly. One thing at a time. And more on the program today should say this is a special version of the Majority Report, Casual Friday. A couple of things make it special. One, we are pre taping this because our co host Emma Vigland, co host of the show. So my not our co host, I mean sort of. I just don't want to make it sound like I'm speaking in the royal way. M. Vigelan's getting married this weekend and so we're, we're off to the wedding and we figured pre tape and what we did not count on was that I was going to have novocaine applied to me this afternoon at the dental office. I thought I was going in there for some type of like recheck on something and they started to do stuff and I'm like wait a second, is this going to wear off by the time my recording and by that point it was too late. So I just want to make it clear at least in this very moment I am not having a stroke. It's dentistry related. It is dentistry related. I imagine as the show progresses I will be in better shape. But we are not live. We will not be taking phone calls or IMs today. There will be no fun half. It'll be a freebie Friday and it will be a little bit truncated. Bear with us. We will be back to regularly scheduled programming on Monday. In the meantime, it is Thursday evening. Just hours ago, this bat crap crazy stuff went down. We had Hegseth on the Hill today attempting to testify. We also had testimony from three blue state governors. This is also coming in the wake of Donald Trump realizing in some respects that his immigration policies are beginning to really alienate the country. It turns out that when people decide between, hey, wait a second, you're not deporting elite, you know, criminal, all the rapists. There's really not that many rapists. And I thought there was so many rapists, murderers and whatnot. And it turns out, no, just deporting moms and dads and workers and children. And we got to go to the elementary school to find the big, you know, Trend Agua or Ms. 13ers, I guess, hiding out, embedding themselves in first and second grade. When people start to realize that and weigh it against, oh, I saw a Mexican flag in California, it turns out there's. They still have a basic sense of humanity. Not all, I mean, but. But enough of Donald Trump's voters so that he gets a little bit nervous. That is all the backdrop of this. And we will show you the clip, I should say the truth social clip, where he announces he's sort of supposedly not gonna roll up rural undocumented immigrants. He does one of these. We're gonna see a lot more in blue states, if you ask me, and in cities. Nevertheless, Krissy Noem is out in la. Senator Alex Padilla is also apparently in la. Understandable, since there's a bit of a crisis there. The President of the United States has sent in military. To do what? Nobody's quite sure. So Padilla goes to the Kristi Noem press conference and as far as we know, attempts to ask her a question. And immediately he is grabbed by. It's unclear who they are, the first guys who grab him because they have no identification and throw him out of the room. Here it is. Sir.

[Jeet Heer]

Sir.

[Sam Cedar]

Hands up. Hands up.

[Jeet Heer]

Senator Alex Padilla. I have questions for the secretary because.

[Sam Cedar]

The fact of the matter is it's important at that moment to note what he has said that I think everybody can hear. I'm Senator Alex Padilla. Now, you would imagine the people from the White House would know what, what senators look like. I imagine I don't know where this was. Do we know exactly where this was? But I suspect based upon what I'm seeing in there, it's probably a federal. Everybody's wearing badges, like, you know, the. With the lanyards. It's quite clear at that point that it's Senator Alex Padilla, because he just said it's Senator Alex Padilla. Federal building. Federal building in. In la. And that's important because the comms person from DHS claimed we had no idea who he was. He didn't, he didn't identify himself. So it feels like he's identifying himself by saying, I am.

[Jeet Heer]

The senator.

[Sam Cedar]

And then where you're at, then, you know, finishing that sentence, you'd also assume.

[Jeet Heer]

He didn't just, like, walk in there off the street.

[Sam Cedar]

Well, that's what I'm saying. It's a federal building. You cannot. You can't just waltz into this. This press conference and there's. Look at the dudes who are, like, shoving like, they don't seem to have. Maybe their Secret Service, I guess. Got a lanyard on. On the right here. I don't know who these guys are. Good.

[Jeet Heer]

Senator Alex Padilla. I have questions for the secretary because.

[Sam Cedar]

The fact of the matter is a half a dozen violent criminals that you're rotating on your.

[Jeet Heer]

I also want to.

[Sam Cedar]

Hide behind my back.

[Jeet Heer]

All right, cool.

[Sam Cedar]

Lay flat.

[Jeet Heer]

Lay flat. Other hand, sir.

[Sam Cedar]

Other hand.

[Jeet Heer]

There's no recording loud out here.

[Sam Cedar]

There's. I did not know.

[Jeet Heer]

There's no recording allowed out here, per.

[Sam Cedar]

FBI rights for the building.

[Jeet Heer]

Is that what. I'm sorry. There's no recording.

[Sam Cedar]

That's my boss.

[Jeet Heer]

I have. There's no recording.

[Sam Cedar]

There's no recording.

[Jeet Heer]

You can't record a center.

[Sam Cedar]

There's no recording. I understand that, sir. It's a press conference. There's no recording in the building. It's a press conference. It says who? Now? By. By the time folks hear the sound of my voice on Friday, there may be more video that comes out. It's unclear to me if Padilla was just shouting out in the middle of this press conference. Quite possible. Seems like it could be a bit of a, you know, political stunt in an era of political stunts. In a moment, it is interesting to me that that staffer was not recording him earlier. Now, I don't know if that means that we got an edited version of that as that's been released or if he just started recording when he realized, like, wait a second, my boss is getting shoved around. Not even be allowed to ask questions that Noem can just, you know, disrespect. Here is Padilla out in front. Apparently, he spoke to Kristi Noem afterwards. I can only imagine what that conversation was like.

[Jeet Heer]

If this is how this administration responds to a senator with a question, if this is how the Department of Homeland Security responds to a senator with a question, you can only imagine.

[Sam Cedar]

What they're.

[Jeet Heer]

Doing to farm workers, to cooks, to.

[Sam Cedar]

Day laborers out in the Los Angeles community and throughout California and throughout the country.

[Jeet Heer]

We will hold this administration accountable.

[Sam Cedar]

He's right. And we. We don't really have to Imagine too much. There are videos out there. People are seeing it. People are seeing it on their news. People are seeing it on their tick tock. They're seeing it on their tick tock and whatnot. I mean, and it, it is fundamentally changing the perspective that people have on this. It is shocking. I don't know if it's shocking that your average low information voter thought that Trump was only interested in getting rid of criminals despite them, you know, regularly waffling before. Well, they meant by criminal, it's just that the Trump administration's definition of criminal includes all, well, undocumented immigrants. And incidentally, there isn't. You are not a criminal if you are an undocumented immigrant any more than you are a criminal if you got a speeding ticket. It is exactly the same type of violation, at least that first time you come in. And then they're also doing this to documented immigrants. They're just revoking hundreds of thousands of people who are on one form or another of protected status. They are dismissing cases. And this story came out in NBC yesterday. Ronald Reagan had told, had given us a heads up about this a couple of days ago. Immigration judges have been instructed to dismiss cases and before there's an appeal, as they walk out the door of the courtroom, Ice scoops them up. So there are no legal proceedings that are actually happening because they haven't had an opportunity to actually formally put in an appeal. I mean, this is not, never mind not going after criminals. This is not even going after what they so called call illegal immigrants or undocumented immigrants. They're going after documented immigrants. They're going after immigrants who are here involved in a legal process. There is no other definition and honoring that process. Exactly. And now it's to the point where they are throwing a senator to the ground for questioning. And at that very moment, I understand why Padilla is out in California because this is his state, obviously, and there's a lot of stuff going down here. But Chuck Schumer, after enjoying probably a lunch of Vichy, Soaz is on the floor of the, of the Senate as a bunch of Democrats, I don't know how many, half a dozen more vote for cloture on the Genius act, which is essentially going to make our financial system like the Wild West. And here is Chuck Schumer. This guy has to go without objection. Mr. President, I just saw something that sickened my stomach. The manhandling of a United States Senator. We need immediate answers to, to what the hell went on. I yield the floor. And now let's Go back to passing whatever it is we can do to help our friends across the aisle pass their legislation.

[Jeet Heer]

I guess Schumer voted against it, but he certainly didn't prevent his entire caucus.

[Sam Cedar]

Look, I'm big time. It's not my job. I just want to make sure everybody's comfortable here. What kind of bull is this? I'm too busy trying to scuttle an Iran deal. All right, in a minute we're going to talk to Jeet here about all this and more. First, a couple of words from our sponsors, folks. You know, you got summer coming up. We want to prepare. You want to have, you know, a carefree summer. Maybe the kids are out. Maybe, maybe if you're lucky enough to have been able to send your kids away to camp, you're going to have a carefree summer. But to get the most out of life, you do have to be prepared. And a lot of us don't realize that a will doesn't cover everything when it comes to estate planning. Trust and will can help ensure that your loved ones are covered when it comes to things like medical decisions and power of attorney. Go to trustandwill.com Majority get 20% off their simple, secure and expert backed estate planning services. 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[Jeet Heer]

Sa.

[Sam Cedar]

We are back. Sam Cedar on the Majority Report. Emma Vigeland is out today. I should also say I am just now slowly coming down off of novocaine from dental work. And so if I am over enunciating, forgive me. Want to. Welcome to the program. Jeet here is the national affairs correspondent for the Nation magazine and host of Time of Monsters. It certainly is, Jeep. I mean, it is.

[Jeet Heer]

I chose that name of the podcast for a reason. And then what? I mean, novocaine. Come on, man, get with the times. The ruling elite of America, as we know from Musk, is like, you know, they're on ketamine, cocaine, ecstasy, shrooms.

[Sam Cedar]

Well, I'm not saying that I'm not on those. I'm just saying that they're not impacting my ability to speak.

[Jeet Heer]

Okay, okay. Okay. But I mean, yeah, I just wrote something about this. I mean, it is a kind of interesting thing with, you know, Musk and others that. And if you want to include old fashioned alcohol with Hegseth and others in the Trump circle, you know, we have a ruling class that's stoned out of its mind and is acting like it, without a doubt.

[Sam Cedar]

And. All right, let's talk about. I mean, we are recording this Thursday evening. And so the big news right now is Senator Alex Padilla. We just played the footage before you came on. Senator Alex Padilla was thrown out of a press conference in a. In a fairly, you know, aggressive manner. I mean, this was. It was pretty aggressive. I mean, I mean, I think you say violent. I mean, it's tough based upon how much violence we've seen with the cops and on horses beating, you know, protesters and folks like that. But this was. And then he was forced to get on his knees and then more or less like, dropped to the floor while they're saying, put your hands behind your back. Now, one of the things about dropping to the floor is that your hands tend to want to go out and stop your face from hitting the floor. And he was cuffed. What, like, I know you're working on a piece. What, what is. Tell us more about your perspective on this.

[Jeet Heer]

Sure, sure. I mean, I mean, I think we kind of have to see this as, you know, part of a pattern of Trump being basically regarding both law enforcement and the military as his personal tools that he, you know, people talk about like, no kings, and Trump is ruling like a king, and I think that's almost like too generous because kings actually have some legitimacy and some rules. He's actually, like, trying to run the government like a warlord. And for a warlord, the military, the police, they all act as agents on his behalf. And certainly we've seen other cases of this. The mayor in Newark who was arrested, members of Congress who tried to get into the treasury building, as is their right, as is actually both a legal and constitutional duty to oversee the government and act as checks, and they were barred. So basically, when we talk about Trump's authoritarianism, I think this is the kind of cutting edge of it, and I think it's something really worth paying attention to, particularly on the military end. I always thought that the pivot point of the first Trump presidency really came after in the fall of 2020, with the George Floyd uprising and his desire to use the military to crack down on that. And they turned him down. They rejected that. And I think a lot of What Trump has been doing in the second term is to make sure that that situation never happens again, that he has loyalists in who will do his bidding, that he sort of, like, purge the military under the COVID of opposing dei, you know, purge the military of officers, especially women and people of color. And he. And, you know, like, obviously an even more vivid example is sending in the Marines to, like, you know, Los Angeles. So, you know, Trump, you know, this is like a new meaning to America first, you know, like, we're not going to fight them over there, because we're going to fight him over here. And so. So. So it is that, you know, like, he sees the purpose of the armed agents of the state as to carry out his own personal policies. I'd also mention the sort of. I don't know how to describe it, the scandalous speech at Fort Bragg where they kind of, like, vetted soldiers to make sure that they were Trump supporters and gave a speech to the military that was a partisan speech, attacking his enemies, attacking protesters as animals. One has to be cautious, because I think things can always get much worse. And we have to sort of, like, keep your rhetoric in with the moment. But, like, if there is a path towards American fascism, towards, like, a real, like, breakdown of democracy, it is the turning of the military into a private praetorian guard for the President. That's how it will happen.

[Sam Cedar]

I mean, this is the top. The stuff I was thinking this afternoon after having seen that footage, I mean, I just remember in the first Trump administration, late in it, in 2020, I think it was somewhere around there saying something to the effect on msnbc. I don't know if we're headed to fascism, but we definitely have to go through this stage to get there. And I think, like, we are further down that road. Like, this is not an isolated incident. And. And the speech at Fort Bragg, what must have happened or what must. Like, I'm trying to sort of, like, in a different. With a different administration, how would this have gone down differently? And you can apply this to the Fort Bragg thing, and you can apply it to what happened with Padilla, because it seems to me that when the President comes to address Fort Bragg or whatever, you know, military, the commanding officer, you know, says, like, you do not respond to anything that has to do with politics. Right? Like, I mean, that is, like, the standing order that they all have. And it really felt like, watching that speech that they were not given that order. If anything, they were given the opposite order. And, you know, even if it was implicit by the fact that they were vetted. And I just wonder, like, is there a scenario where if Marjorie Taylor Greene had gone, you know, at a, you know, to a press conference that Pete Buttigieg had and she got up doing this, would she end up on the floor handcuffed? I gotta think no.

[Jeet Heer]

Yeah. No, no. I think that definitely the rules of engagement have changed. It seems like, you know, parts of the military, and I think it's a different military. Trump has gotten rid of a lot of people that would have stood in his way and said no. And he also has a secretary of defense that is much more compliant than he had in his first term.

[Sam Cedar]

Let's play this clip. We have a clip of Hegseth today on the Hill being asked, will you follow a court's orders? And this is what he said. Senator Baldwin asked you about the legal authority for the Marines in my state. I disagree with you. I thought not only do I not want Marines in Iran, I don't want them in California. But I don't want to get a gotcha, you know, they said what provision your administration since then has filed in the federal district court. You're arguing that the Marines should be allowed to defend federal property. I disagree with you. That's your argument. Here's where I hope we can agree. Whatever the federal district court decides, will you abide by it? Well, this is a pending. This is a situation.

[Jeet Heer]

So will you agree, though, that it's.

[Sam Cedar]

Not my legal view.

[Jeet Heer]

It's not your legal view that makes the decision in America, it's the federal judiciary. If the federal court in California, in.

[Sam Cedar]

The San Francisco, this district judge has.

[Jeet Heer]

An orders, a preliminary injunction, will you.

[Sam Cedar]

Agree to abide by. By the federal courts? What I will tell you is my job right now is to ensure the troops that we have in Los Angeles are capable of supporting law enforcement in. Sir, I agree with that.

[Jeet Heer]

But will you.

[Sam Cedar]

And we know.

[Jeet Heer]

Can you.

[Sam Cedar]

Constitutional and statutory authority. That's fine, but can you do that?

[Jeet Heer]

Can you just assure us that you'll.

[Sam Cedar]

Abide by the decisions of the courts? We've always, we've always looked at the decisions.

[Jeet Heer]

Well, the vice president has said that he doesn't believe that the court should be respected in military matters.

[Sam Cedar]

This is not, not my lane. But we also recognize that the way in which the judiciary has expanded its powers.

[Jeet Heer]

But can you, during the simple. Okay, let me ask you this. Two, two simple questions. You get 30 seconds.

[Sam Cedar]

I'm not trying to trick you. I just, I think it would assure the American people because we shouldn't.

[Jeet Heer]

It shouldn't be Ro Khanna's view of the Constitution. It shouldn't be Secretary Hegset's.

[Sam Cedar]

It should be the Supreme Court and the federal courts.

[Jeet Heer]

Can you assure the American people of two things? You will respect any Supreme Court decision.

[Sam Cedar]

On this matter about the whether the Marines are constitutional, and you will respect the district courts when they rule before.

[Jeet Heer]

The Supreme Court rules.

[Sam Cedar]

What I can say is we should not have local judges determining foreign policy or national security policy for the country.

[Jeet Heer]

So you're not willing to say you would respect those decisions?

[Sam Cedar]

What I'm saying is local district judges shouldn't make foreign policy for the United States. Okay, now. Yeah, exactly. People could not see the look on your face. I could see the look on your face as exit was refusing to answer this question. I mean, that's why Hex is there. It's not because he can, you know, down a half a bottle of whiskey, you know, at a sitting.

[Jeet Heer]

Yeah.

[Sam Cedar]

It's not just because he's so TV ready, it's that he's. He's not going to, you know, he is going to wait for Donald Trump. He is going to. And if Donald Trump says, I'm ignoring the courts, then he's going to ignore the courts.

[Jeet Heer]

Yeah. No, no. I mean, like, we were heading for so many different constitutional crises, but this is basically the core of it, that it is a view of the presidency that is sort of the imperial presidency on overdrive. And if one wanted to be sort of more historical and a little bit more fair minded, I mean, I do actually think that responsibility for this goes back many decades and to both parties, that there has been an expansion of presidential power and Congress has not taken its responsibility. But in Trump, we are actually seeing where this leads to. And also that the sort of so called guardrails have all been dismantled, are no longer there in the same degree. And it gets to a situation where like, you know, it ultimately becomes a matter of force, it becomes a matter of troops on the ground. And the only thing that can stand in their way is going to be mass protesters, is going to be like, this is the kind of situation where, you know, we're in right now, but, you know, even more rapidly heading towards because, you know, once you get a situation where the Trump administration, if they do get unfavorable court rulings and they disregard them, you know, like, you know, what is actually going to stand in their way? Chuck Schumer. I mean, like, like, seriously, like, like, what is the actual.

[Sam Cedar]

I am very angry as soon as we pass the Genius act. I am going to speak to John Thune about this.

[Jeet Heer]

Yeah. But I mean, to give that sort of, you know, like, not Schumer, but other Democrats credit, I mean, I think it's not only that, like, Alex Fadia was mistreated, but, but that he was actually doing the right thing. He was doing the constitutional thing. It is actually, I, I, they're actually like legal provisions where he's, like, he is actually allowed to go where like, Cabinet secretary is and ask questions like that, that, that is perfectly acceptable. And in fact, that is his, it's a job.

[Sam Cedar]

I mean, it's a big part of his job is oversight of these agencies.

[Jeet Heer]

That's right.

[Sam Cedar]

And, and I should add that they're lying about this.

[Jeet Heer]

The Department of Homeland Security released a statement saying he didn't announce that he was a senator. And if you watch the video, very.

[Sam Cedar]

Quickly we watch the video, he literally says, yeah, I am Senator Alex.

[Jeet Heer]

Yeah, so, yeah, so, so if it's a situation, I mean, like, basically, you know, the viewers and listeners will know, like, you know, Constitution 101, checks and balances. The courts and the Congress are supposed to act as checks. And in both cases, there's been some level of compromise, particularly with some of the Trump judges, but also Trump saying people in the administration saying they won't necessarily obey the courts. And on Congress, it's on both sides, I should say the Republicans have really made themselves subservient to Trump, and that's a real problem, and they're not doing their job. But the fact that, you know, you also have a sort of feckless Democratic leadership class that actually gets, like, mad whenever any of their members of Congress and Senate actually do their job and stand up. I mean, remember when who was the senator from Maryland who went down to.

[Sam Cedar]

El Salvador, Van Hollen went down there, and there was other Democratic congresspeople, and they were being chastised by Jeffries and by, by other Democratic leaders for going down there to attempt to secure Brago Garcia's release. And I mean, he's, at least, you know, he's back in the country. They're, they're bringing charges against him. I don't know the validity of those charges. They sound pretty fishy from my perspective. But nevertheless, at least there is, you know, they were able to achieve some measure of due process. And this is the thing that is so in enraging about the Democratic leadership position here, because I consider myself a fairly pragmatic person when it comes to these things. And, you know, there are certainly some Things where it's like, I'm sorry, this is just too out of bounds. You need to, you need to make us think about this. But their failure to fight and push back when we're seeing that Trump is already, like, losing, you know, support on immigration. And the reason why you lose support is not just because people sit there and make up their own mind. You need to walk people through this. And you said like, you know, there are some Democrats. Let's play this clip. Maxwell Frost, apparently within minutes of seeing this footage, took a. This is. Matt, can you. What is it? What are we watching here with this? Maxwell Frost. This is just apparently the marching to Senator Thune's office. Maxwell Frost leading some representatives here. I'm not. I don't think there's any senators here. But this is just posted to Blue sky, like the 20 minutes ago. So there's basically just some Congress people. I mean, but I don't see Hakeem Jeffries there.

[Jeet Heer]

No, no, no, no, no, no. Absolutely. I mean, on the politics of immigration, like, it is actually. I mean, there's some pretty good polling just right now strong. It's kind of 50, 50, except on the issue of the deportations, which a clear majority of Americans oppose. Now, if you're like an actual opposition party that wants to regain power, then it's worthwhile to take an issue that you're weak on and to try to change it. And the.

[Sam Cedar]

Oh, my God. That's like, that's, that is. I mean, every.

[Jeet Heer]

That's 101.

[Sam Cedar]

Exactly. Bush v. Kerry. I mean, they went right at the fact that he was a war hero when Bush was awol.

[Jeet Heer]

Yeah, yeah. And the deportations, the unpopularity of the deportations can be a wedge issue, which you can use to start a new conversation on immigration. And that I think you can win on. Because if you actually talking about we're deporting like, you know, like children, they're deporting people who came over to America as children. Deporting people who've worked here for like 30, 40 years. And now you have the business class, apparently, like, Trump is even like, you know, obviously retreat on this issue. Cuz he just posted on Truth Social. Well, we're not going after the migrant laborers in the farms or in the hotels. So, I mean, obviously the business class started to phone Trump and said, like, what the hell are you doing? We need these people. So this is actually an issue you can win on. And if you can win on immigration, which is an issue where, like, it's one of Trump's stronger issues then you really have, like, in a really good position. So I just think, like, it's like, just like it speaks to, I don't know, this kind of servility, this surrender mentality that one sees in Jeffries and in Schumer. Like, it just. They do not know how to fight politically. But I want to be fair and say, like, you know, that's not true of Democrats as a whole. And the good thing is that more are becoming emboldened. And I actually think that the protests are actually emboldening Democrats in Senate and Congress to actually speak more on this issue. I think people are hearing from their constituents. I think aside from the leadership class, I think people in Congress and the Senate are having a better sense of where their base is and where what needs to be done. And I would also say, like, you know, like, I'm being perfectly serious when I say, like, you know, I worry about a Civil War scenario, right, like when you have American troops, you know, on the streets fighting with protesters. And I think that the manhandling of Padilla is kind of like part of this. If you go through the history of the Civil War, one of the incidents that historians highlight is when the Senator Sumner was on the speech on the part of the Senate, spoke against slavery, and then a Southern senator came up and started beating him. If you start having violence against elected officials, that's actually a pretty good indicator that you're going to start heading towards a situation where people feel like politics is not the solution. And if politics is not the solution, then violence is a solution. And I actually want to avoid that. I mean, I'm not an accelerationist. I actually think that let's leave the politics aside. If Schumer and Jeffries were doing their duty as statesmen, as political leaders, they should think about the fact that their surrender mentality is going to make Civil War more likely, not less likely, 100%.

[Sam Cedar]

I've had some conversations with or exchanged some. I've had some conversation with some folks on the ground in LA and the perspective of at least some of those people who are engaged in the direct action. And I gotta be careful about what I say here just because of agreements I made. But the perspective there is not we're protesting or something like this. It is we are protecting members of our community. We are in one part of that is inhibiting and tying up the police and. And the other is also is just like trying to buy a whole host of means, protect people in the community and thwart what ICE is doing and Part of the reason why people end up doing that is because the politicians who presumably represent these communities are not doing it.

[Jeet Heer]

Yeah, no, no, that's absolutely the case. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You push the Civil War analogy further. I mean, that's what the abolitionists found as well as having to do. Once you have the, you know, the Fugitive Slave act, like if you, you know, like if the political system has failed, then you're going to be put in a position where like, you know, you're gonna have to like, go outside the law in order to protect people. And that is what we're seeing. And the more the Democrats fail to address this issue, the more they fail to protect people. And these are people who are totally woven into American society. Right. So it is add another aspect of what Trump is doing here because he's setting, it's like he controls the federal army, the federal government, and he's setting it against the states that are his enemy. Like, it's not an accident. He's going after California. You know, they're having these hearings on the so called sanctuary states.

[Sam Cedar]

Exactly.

[Jeet Heer]

Using the power of the government against states that he sees as on the other side. And that is also like a Civil War situation. He's not presiding as the president of all America. He's not like be the commander in chief of, with like an army that's supposed to protect all America. It is the army is his personal mercenary force and he's going to use it against the states that he sees as his political enemy. And the FBI is going to go, you know, like, manhandle senators. This is like we're in a tinderbox here. You know, like, like things could very easily explode in like, very dangerous directions.

[Sam Cedar]

Well, I think your point about, it's interesting because you look at those, the governors who were brought in on the blue states and by all accounts, ICE is ramping up in those states in those big blue cities. And in many respects, these governors are much more sensitive to where the, you know, the Democratic base is than the Senate leadership. I mean, it, you know, I'm not, I've never been one to be sort of like, you know, Washington this, Washington that. But there are some of these Democratic leaders who really need to get out more.

[Jeet Heer]

Yeah, yeah.

[Sam Cedar]

And they are, you know, their, their views are completely ossified.

[Jeet Heer]

Yeah, listen, they are getting out there. They're promoting books.

[Sam Cedar]

That's true. Chuck Schumer has been on book tour, to be fair. To be fair.

[Jeet Heer]

You know, but, yeah, no, no, no, I mean, I mean, I mean, the Senate is traditionally the most insulated.

[Sam Cedar]

You know, Jeffries now has, you know, maybe like the passage of the Genius act to go and brag to all those, those Silicon Valley people that we're on their side.

[Jeet Heer]

That's right. That's right. Yeah. Yeah. No, I mean, I mean, I mean, this is like, it's a two front war, right? Like, you know, we got to try to stop Trump from doing what he's doing. But there's also like this kind of war within the Democratic Party and, you know, like, until there's like a leadership change and, you know, when it's seeing a situation where, like, you know, whether you like it or not, David Hogg is kind of out there for trying to shake things up. And you have like, you know, Democratic representatives who are like in their late 80s and who are clearly suffering from like, some, some level of dementia, who are like, going to run again. I just think, like, you know, unless we address that problem, unless this party becomes more Democratic in a small, deep sense, like, you know, like, you know, like, you have to solve both problems at the same time.

[Sam Cedar]

Yeah. And I don't even. It's possible one. You know, there's a sequence, too, that's going on. Like, it's, it's that sense that there's nobody sort of driving the bus does not give people confidence. And it definitely bleeds down, I think, into, into things. I mean, this.

[Jeet Heer]

Yeah, I mean, like, it's an astonishing number, I think. Like, it's like it's in the 70, 73, 74% of Democrats feel that their party's ineffective. I mean, those are your own supporters, right? Like, you know, like, I think, you know, like, unless that's a wake up call, I don't know what is.

[Sam Cedar]

Do you think it's because they haven't rolled back enough of the regulations that protect low income people or the environment? I'm just curious.

[Jeet Heer]

Yeah, I don't know. I think, speaking on that point, this is a bit of a digression, but I think it's very interest that, you know, because like you, I'm a sort of pragmatist and, you know, like, imagine a pragmatist on the immigration issue. Like, I do actually think, you know, like, in terms of, like, either border control or, you know, concerns about effects on wages, we have to take this stuff seriously. But I know for a fact that, you know, like, Ezra Klein went after Bernie Sanders for, you know, like, having a moderate position on immigration and saying, you know, like, basically making a case for open borders and Matt Iglesias wrote a book called One Billion Americans, which you get one billion Americans by having far more open immigration than the US has now. And these same people are now aligned with the very forces of the Democratic Party that want to cave in to Trump on immigration. So what that says about their sincerity, political consistency or even like, ability to think logically, I don't know.

[Sam Cedar]

Well, I have a sense of what it says. But speaking of which, the. There was a moment, a brief moment where I think Ro Khanna was one of the people. I mean, something like. But, but there's a lot of Valley. Yes. Reaching out. But the idea that there was even an idea that, that, that Democrats should go to Elon Musk, like, do you not see there's a problem if we need to run to a disaffected billionaire at a moment's notice? That's the answer for things. Do we not see that as just a problem in general? Forget.

[Jeet Heer]

Well, no, but I mean, I think this speaks to a broader divide within the Democratic Party because I do think the abundance people, they do have a kind of theory of politics. And their theory of politics is that the Democrats made a mistake in alienating the billionaires, that they had like too much regulation of competition. And so people like Elon Musk and Ben Horowitz went over to the.

[Sam Cedar]

Ben. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Jeet Heer]

And so, so that if, if we have bring back the billionaires, have good billionaires, that would be, that would help the Democrats. And conversely, you know, you have like the Bernie Sanders position, which is that, you know, like, you know, even despite Citizens United, we don't actually need the billionaires. We're actually better off without the billionaires. There's really no good billionaire that we just do, you know, small donor donation that makes us would make the Democrats much less beholden to like unpopular economic policy. So it's two like very distinct visions. And I do think that, you know, on the abundance stuff like, you know, like, I don't know about zoning laws, it makes sense that you should reform some of them. But I mean, the core of the politics is that these guys are very heavily aligned with like the idea of good billionaires and like trying to like make a billionaire friendly policy politics that wins the richest Americans back to the Democratic Party. And I have to say, like, if that's the case, I think the downside of that is you're not going to be able to do any sort of economic populism. You're going to make people much more disenchanted. You're Going to have like the big problem for the Democrats in the last presidential election was like a lower turnout. But 8 million people just didn't show up who had shown up before. And if you want to discourage voters, if you want to then welcoming back into the Democratic party the guy that gave a Hitler salute is trying to medicate.

[Sam Cedar]

It's hard wanted to people.

[Jeet Heer]

Pretty good strategy, huh?

[Sam Cedar]

His heart went out to people cheat. That's his. He send his heart out.

[Jeet Heer]

But I mean, I think the misunderstanding of the billionaires is a misunderstanding of Musk. I mean like Musk's argument is not like he suddenly sees the light and sees Trump as bad. Like he's actually mad that Trump isn't doing enough to gut the government and to, you know.

[Sam Cedar]

Exactly.

[Jeet Heer]

And Musk himself is a very sincere like radical right winger. He can clearly see, I think going back to one of his children transitioning, that this guy's self radicalized and he's this is like Mr. White Genocide. So why would you even want someone like that in your party?

[Sam Cedar]

Yeah, and I think the straw man from the abundance folks to the extent that I have seen it has been that the people who have a problem with billionaires as a policy question or oligarchy see it as the only sort of like they're one trick ponies. But the bottom line is that I think is that they are billionaires are being in a coalition with billionaires. And the existence of billionaires is one of their biggest, is one of the biggest veto points there could be. I mean, that's the, you know, their whole sort of like concept is there are too many veto points in building too many veto points. But the fact of the matter is, is that in when you.

[Jeet Heer]

Well, we saw this in the last election. I mean, like, like exactly. Kamala Harris literally like ran her program through like Wall street and they said, oh no, don't talk about price gouging as much as you are. You got to tone that down. So like giving veto power to like, you know, people that are so fundamentally opposed to like any sort of economic populism seems folly. I mean, we all remember the classic Chuck Schumer quote that for every two blue collar or every blue collar worker you lose in eastern Pennsylvania or Ohio, you'll get like two more in the summer of Pennsylvania. Now we've got to the point where you're saying like, well, for every like blue collar worker you lose, you know, you're going to get like two billionaires. Well, I don't think the math works out right. Like I just think that there's a lot more blue collar workers in America than there are billionaires.

[Sam Cedar]

Are you paying attention to what's going on in New. In the New York Mayor. Mayor. Because it's, it has the potential to really, I think, fundamentally alter that conversation.

[Jeet Heer]

Yeah, yeah, no, no, it absolutely does. And, you know, I'm kind of grateful that the centrist have decided to coalesce around, you know, like, this, like, sex fest who, like, actually had to resign his last political job because of his actions. And, you know. Yeah, I, you know, like, the polling looks good. We'll. We'll see what happens. I mean, I think that the big issue to me is, like, enthusiasm. Like, he's clearly built, you know, like an army of supporters that are going out there and are fanning out. We're probably gonna get ugly. Like, it's already kind of ugly with, like, you know, the ad where it's gave him the sort of, you know, Ayatollah Khomeini beard. You know, I think we're gonna see a lot of that. I, you know, like, there'll be a lot of pictures of Zoran looking like Saddam Hussein or bin Laden in the coming weeks. That's my prediction.

[Sam Cedar]

Yeah, I think that's true. But I will say early voting starts on Monday. And wait, Thursday, is it Monday or does it even start before then? I think the 14th is my recollection. Is it the 14th? So that's 13. It's Saturday. It starts Saturday. And so people in New York City can go out and vote on Saturday. And he seems to be peaking at exactly the time that you would want him to peak.

[Jeet Heer]

Yeah, no, no, no, no, I think that's right. I think it's probably always also worth mentioning, it's ranked balloting. So you'll fill out your ballot with everyone that you need to fill out.

[Sam Cedar]

All five. Yeah. And none of them should include Cuomo.

[Jeet Heer]

That's right. That's right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And, yeah, we'll see how it goes. I mean, Como, you know, has a history of dirty politics. I'm not even sure if I'm, like, allowed to say this. People will think this is outlandish and offensive. But, you know, like, in the late 70s, when Mario Como was running for mayor against Ed Koch, there was, like, a very famous poster that was, like, plastered.

[Sam Cedar]

Oh, yes. And Andrew was the one who came up with. It is my understanding.

[Jeet Heer]

Am I allowed to say the slogan?

[Sam Cedar]

Well, yeah, yeah. I mean, this is what the slogan was that Andrew Cuomo promoted and, you know, who who wants to say it?

[Jeet Heer]

Okay, so it was like, vote for Como, not the homo, based on, like, you know, long standing rumors about Ed Koch's personal life. So, you know, like. Yeah, I think, like, if that's what they did, like, you know, in the 70s, we're just going to see what they're going to do.

[Sam Cedar]

Yeah, that's what. If that's what Cuomo would do for his dad, then here it is. I mean, here's the flyer. If that's what Andrew Cuomo would do for his dad, what's he going to do for his really? I mean, if Cuomo loses this, he's going to run in the general election, and he may, you know, we may do. I think he would do better in the general election then. Then maybe the Democratic primary. So, I mean, who knows? But this is existential for him in terms of his political career. If he loses the Met for mayor, he's done. He's just going to go on and be a sex pest in private. In private enterprise. Go get a job with Ken Langone or something. Or some right wing billionaire.

[Jeet Heer]

That's right. Yeah. I have to say he's been pretty low energy, too. I kind of feel like. I mean, we'll see. We'll see how this plays out. But, yeah, I do think that part of the gambit will then be that he'll run in the general, but I do think that would probably absorb a lot of the Republican vote. It's gonna be weird. I mean, it's gonna be like a real marathon from here on in. Like the.

[Sam Cedar]

Yeah, it's gonna be interesting because I think his strategy was to lay low and just let his name do the work.

[Jeet Heer]

Mm.

[Sam Cedar]

And because I think the more that he gets out there, the more it starts generating people telling stories about the, you know, shutting down the hospitals prior to Covid and then putting, you know, COVID patients into nursing homes and the idc, how he basically thwarted any real Democratic legislation as governor. And his shutting down of the. What was the commission? I can't remember the name of the commission off the top of my head now, but that was looking into to corruption. And when they started to investigate his office, they shut it down.

[Jeet Heer]

Yeah. In the last days of the campaign. I do actually think there is a kind of, you know, the sort of low information voter or, you know, who's just going by name value. But also like, he has. Andrew Cuomo has a reputation as a tough guy. So there's a kind. You know, you hear this from people, like they say, like, oh, he's the guy who can stand up to Trump. And I think that the, you know, like, what's maybe worth emphasizing, you know, to try to reach those people is this guy's getting a lot of money from Republican donors. Andrew Cuomo is. And, you know, he has a history of kind of caving to the Republicans as well. So I kind of. I think that, you know, maybe the point to emphasize for Democratic primary voters is like, no, this guy's not going to stand up to Trump. He's actually so compromised as well that, you know, like, Eric Adams, you're going to get a second New York mayor who can stand up to Trump.

[Sam Cedar]

It was the Moreland Commission, and Cuomo shut it down when they started to investigate his office. And I think you're right. I mean, the guy is completely compromised in a myriad of ways.

[Jeet Heer]

Yeah. And, you know, like, I actually honestly think in terms of reforming the Democratic Party, like, New York State is one of the places that has to kind of happen. There is a kind of old political machine there. I think that, you know, like, aside from, like, you know, having a very, you know, like, exciting mayor who will do, like, a lot of good things, like, I think anything that can put, like, you know, stake through the heart of the New York party, Democratic political machine and, like, get it so we can. That that state can have, like, a real political party, that would be very good. I mean, I think the two states that need, like, reform are, like, California and New York. So in terms of the Democratic Party.

[Sam Cedar]

Couldn't agree more. In Florida, I was just going to say, in Florida, need a makeover. Jeet. Here we will put links to your pieces at the Nation magazine and as well as Time of Monsters. And, you know, I guess maybe the last thing I wanted to ask you is, like, what. At what point do you think we pass? Because there's a quality of, like, you know, frog boiling frog to all of this. Right. I mean, it's bit here, a bit there. A lot of people don't want to get out in front of this thing because then you're the person who's screaming about, like, you're being hysterical about fascism and whatnot. Although that seems to be quickly, you.

[Jeet Heer]

Know, disintegrated among Democratic voters. I think that's no longer even an issue, like I say, I think. And that's increasing among independents. I mean, like, I just think, to me, like, the real, as I said, the real stumbling block is the party leadership. And, you know, like, we saw this from Schumer, like, he's kind of like waiting, waiting for the Republicans to break rag, you know, which is not going to happen. So, you know, like, it's gonna continue to be a crisis. I. I think, like, honestly, and this is like, what the thought that terrifies me. Like, I think the breaking point could be if you have, like, American troops kill American citizens. I think that, you know, that's a real possibility. Like, like, you know, like, Marines are.

[Sam Cedar]

Not trained to do crowd control. Marines are trained to kill, Period.

[Jeet Heer]

End of story. I think this is also part of Trump and especially Miller's strategy that I actually think that they actually are looking for an excuse for, like, to escalate 100 and so, you know. Yeah, I don't know. Did you watch Andor I have been.

[Sam Cedar]

I watched the first season. I'm waiting on the second season because I'm trying to get my son to watch it.

[Jeet Heer]

Don't spoil like a protest that's, like, highly relevant. And, you know, like, obviously the screenplay is taken from many cases in history, but it is often the case that, you know, this rising public anger combined with, like, sort of autocratic rulers that, like, want to, you know, like an excuse for a crackdown, like that combination can, you know, quickly escalate in a very dangerous ways.

[Sam Cedar]

And I think the thing to watch is this Birthright citizen case because in the Supreme Court, because that the ruling there is going to be less about birthright citizenship and more about the capacity of a. A subsidiary, like a federal court, an appellate court, to issue a nationwide injunction as to whether or not the administration will follow those like he. Hegseth would not say that he would follow that. And, you know, when it comes to the Marines, that is going to be a big, big deal, I think. But we shall see. Jeet here, always a pleasure.

[Jeet Heer]

No, no, no. Great talking as well. Yeah.

[Sam Cedar]

All right, folks, are we going to take a break or we're not going to take a break? I don't think we are, actually. I think we're just going to continue on and we'll get a couple of clips that I want to go through this tweet. Tweet. Truth bomb by Donald Trump. What are they? What do they call them?

[Jeet Heer]

Why do you hate the truth, Sam?

[Sam Cedar]

I'm just trying to remember what the name of it is. It's A truth. A Truth. A truth. All right, I'm sorry. A Truth by Donald Trump. This was from Thursday morning. Afternoon. Our great farmers and people in the hotel and leisure business and our great service workers, the game show hosts have been stating that Our very aggressive policy on immigration is. Is taking very good, longtime workers away from them, with those jobs being almost impossible to replace in many cases, criminals allowed into our country by the very stupid Biden open borders policy are applying for those jobs. This is not good. We must protect our farmers, but get the criminals out of the usa. Changes are coming. So I think what he's saying there.

[Jeet Heer]

Is.

[Sam Cedar]

We'Re going to ease off in certain sectors. I wonder if it's also, somebody said, you know, that your Department of Homeland Security Secretary, Kristi Noem, there's talk that maybe on her farm there might be some undocumented. But it's also, I think this is indicative of why Trump is at least ostensibly pretending like they're going to back off. They think that if they show images of what's going on in New York and California, that it's just going to feed. It's just red meat to their base. And for the most part, it is. But it's gonna turn off. It's gonna turn off. I think people in swing states A and B, I think you're also gonna see an increased turnout in these states, particularly places like Atlanta and in Philadelphia and maybe Pittsburgh and Madison and Milwaukee. But here is. Here is a guy, Vincent Scardina, who is a Trump supporter, being interviewed. And where is this? The great state of Florida, Channel 6.

[Jeet Heer]

In the leisurely town of Key West.

[Sam Cedar]

Here we go in Key West.

[Jeet Heer]

You've lived in Key west for how long? 44 years.

[Sam Cedar]

Vincent Scardena is the owner of the.

[Jeet Heer]

Roofing company where they worked.

[Sam Cedar]

He's owned it 37 years. It's going to be really hard to replace those guys. Says losing these six men is losing a third of his workers. We're not able in Key west to just replace people as easily as, say, a big city. Very limited people to pull from. And then you would have to train them, and that takes sometimes years. But for Vincent, it's much more than that. It's financially as well as emotionally. It takes a toll. You get to know these guys, you become their friends. Just not an employer, but a friend, and you see what happens to their family. It's.

[Jeet Heer]

It's quite a shock.

[Sam Cedar]

Given his support for the president, we.

[Jeet Heer]

Asked what he would tell the commander in chief if he had a chance.

[Sam Cedar]

What happened here, this situation is just, totally, just blatantly, not at all what they said it was.

[Jeet Heer]

Vincent, you voted for Donald Trump?

[Sam Cedar]

Yes, I did. While he agrees with most of the president's policies, he thought the Trump administration was going to focus solely on Deporting criminals. It seems immigration officials, he says, are just trying to meet quotas now. Buyers remorse? I don't know, a little bit.

[Jeet Heer]

How much damage does this create in your community?

[Sam Cedar]

It's not just happening to me. I mean, it's happening across the board. I know one landscaper that lost nine or 10 of his, the whole crew he had. And he's just totally out of business. All of a sudden he wants his workers released and yearns for normalcy in his community and for the families of the men many argue were wrongfully detained. Honestly, like, I hear this stuff and it just, you know, I guess maybe he wasn't paying enough attention beforehand to the rhetoric. Okay. But even now he seems like he's still supporting Trump and I just don't know. Buyer's remorse? Yes, some buyer's remorse. Like what, what exactly is on the other side of that ledger? You know, there's a group in Florida.

[Jeet Heer]

Called Latinas for Trump and I covered them in 2015. Whenever Fusion Network, I remember they're, they're, you know, Cuban, right wing Cuban and Venezuelan people.

[Sam Cedar]

Well, that's because they've now kicked out all the Cubans and the Venezuelans under the temporary protected status.

[Jeet Heer]

That a change of heart.

[Sam Cedar]

Yes, but it's.

[Jeet Heer]

According to them, they said it was seeing these like, people being apprehended on the way to the court hearings and.

[Sam Cedar]

But here's a guy, and I understand that. I mean, I understand the reaction of like, we thought it was going to be one thing, it's not another. I mean, not everybody's job to sit here and read the news and be this aware. And we know that Trump won this election basically on the backs of low information voters. But here's a guy now who is, got firsthand experience, who is almost breaking up into tears talking about families that he sees destroyed. And what is on the other side of this ledger? Get some tax cuts. It could be the tax cuts. Although he hasn't seen them yet, but, you know, he assumes they're coming. I mean, what's on the other side of this ledger? Yeah, what, what is, what is more of a payoff to him? I mean, I, my guess is I don't know. I don't know. Then what's going to make up for half a dozen of your worker slash friends being sent to some concentration camp? It's also amazing to me that like, you know, there's always this sort of like, like fundamental, almost essential quality of not being able to be empathetic unless it's like literally Happening to you or almost crying for himself. Exactly. But I just, I'm fascinated as though, like, what's on the other side of that ledger? I don't know if we'll ever know. I mean, I have some guesses, but it could be something idiosyncratic. He really, really didn't like the antitrust proposals of the Biden administration. Or maybe he's really concerned about Gaza or.

[Jeet Heer]

He hates Medicare.

[Sam Cedar]

It could be he just thinks that, like, we're spending too much money on the, on the Medicaid. I don't know. Fascinating. Very disturbing. Meanwhile, what. This was yesterday. So this is on Wednesday. We are pre recording this show. Just a reminder to you. I don't know why we say this. Like 80, 90% of people who will consume the show do. As like a podcaster. It's, it's VOD released like we're just doing it eight hours earlier, but whatever. Scott Basalt, the Secretary of the treasury was in front of. Which committee is this? The Finance Committee. And they are attempting, I mean, in. As they sell this Ways and Means Committee, in the Ways and Means Committee, as they sell this budget, this reconciliation bill to the American public, they are just. Person after person is being sent out to basically tell lies about it. The lies of 1.4 million undocumented immigrants on Medicaid. No, that's not true. Medicaid is statutorily banned. Undocumented immigrants. There are in 14 states around the country public programs to provide health care for immigrants because at the end of the day, it's cheaper on the public coffers. And I would also imagine some people actually think that, like, well, they're here, they're working. Maybe, you know, those seven guys who are working on that roofers company, maybe they should get health care. What happens if they're sick? It's gonna hurt your business, buddy. Maybe they should just, you know, be part of the community officially. I don't know. But that's 14. They lie about that. They lie about the idea that there are 4 million strapping young men who just decide, I don't want to work, I don't want to make any money. But I super, super concerned about my health. And so I still want to be able to go in for my annual physical. They lie about that. And now they're lying about the. Just the basic math of their bill, which is that it increases the deficit astronomically. And Scott Bessant rolls out an oldie but goodie. Here he is being asked, what number is this? Representative Mike Thompson from California asked him this question in the hearing. Mr. Secretary, can you point to one.

[Jeet Heer]

Independent study, one study performed by an.

[Sam Cedar]

Expert PhD economist who is not on.

[Jeet Heer]

The payroll of this administration that says that this legislation will not add to our national debt? Well, Congressman, if yes or no, can.

[Sam Cedar]

You point to one?

[Jeet Heer]

If we want to look at the cbo? No, I'm not asking you.

[Sam Cedar]

Is there an independent expert that you.

[Jeet Heer]

Can point, point to that says that this bill will not add to our national debt?

[Sam Cedar]

Yes or no? Yes, there is. Yes.

[Jeet Heer]

What are they?

[Sam Cedar]

Art Laugher. Pardon me? Art Laugher. Art Laugher. Great.

[Jeet Heer]

That. I don't think that one counts.

[Sam Cedar]

Now you see everybody laughing, even Bessant himself. Go back to just when he says Art Laugher. Even Bessant himself almost cracks up in saying this because Art Laffer is so discredited in both parties at this point. Just watch Passant's face when he says it. Is there an independent expert that you can point to that says that this.

[Jeet Heer]

Bill will not add to our national debt?

[Sam Cedar]

Yes or no? Yes, there is. Yes.

[Jeet Heer]

What are they? Art Laffer.

[Sam Cedar]

Pardon me?

[Jeet Heer]

Art Laffer. Now look at, look at, look at.

[Sam Cedar]

Look at his face. He can't say it the second time without cracking a smile. Scott Passant never ever cited Art Laffer before this moment. This is the first time in his life. Who is Art Laffer? If you've listened to this program for any amount of time, it is. It's almost offensive to me that you don't know who he is. But Art Laffer was the one of the architects of supply side economics, which as far back as 1984, 1980, George Herbert Walker Bush called voodoo economics. Here's Austan Goolby in terms of what he talks about, the Laffer curve. The Laffer curve is a theory that if you go up. Now don't put that up yet. If you go up on an axis that the further you increase taxes, the less people want to work and that if you raise taxes that there's a point where people stop working. Now I'm sure anecdotally there are instances where there are somehow like, you know, multi hundred millionaires who would say, like, ah, I think I'm going to retire early because I'm only making 90 cents, I'm only making 10 cents on the dollar for every dollar I earn over, you know, $5 million. But the Laffer curve has one other element. It says that if you cut taxes, you will necessarily get more revenue. Why? Because by cutting taxes in any amount, it's going to create more economic activity. You're going to get more growth and you will get more taxes paid in volume in abundance. You'll get more taxes paid in volume because you know, rich people will be paying less of a percentage of their, of their income, but they're going to be making so, so much more money that they're going to end up paying more in taxes. Here's how Austan Goolsbee, and I'm not a huge fan of his frankly, but here's how he says they looked at, they asked people if they. Yeah, this is a sort of a poll of a whole bunch of economists, Goolsbee just being one of them. So here's their sort of pithy responses to what the Laffer curve is. Moon landing was real. Evolution exists. Tax cuts lose revenue. The research has thrown shown this a thousand times. Enough already. So the point being, okay, yeah, here's another guy, David Autor, not aware of any evidence in recent history where tax cuts actually raise revenue. Sorry, laugher. Chicago booth may look plausible on a cocktail napkin or a cocktail party, but not true empirically in the U.S. that was the, the laugher curve was famously drawn on a cocktail napkin. Keep going. Chicago booth. Richard Thaler. That's a laugher. I mean but we also have a very explicit real world example and it is called the state of Kansas. And in 2012, Sam Brownback became governor of Kansas and he brought in Arthur Laffer to be his top advisor and they went on a whole project of cutting taxes. Matt, I want you to Google the Kansas Art Laffer experiment and show me what the headlines are. Because after cutting taxes, the Republican controlled Senate and assembly in Kansas realized that it was a disaster and everybody's now caught on to this. But maybe you can go back, just go back like five years so that you see this as Trump proposes tax cuts. Kansas deals with aftermath. Yes, this is all. But this is all people now writing about the actual. I want to see contemporaneous headlines because what happened in Kansas with this experiment, you got to go back do the do like a time set. So just do like 2015. What happened after two years was that they were so decimated, revenue was so decimated in Kansas and they had to cut deeply into the Kansas higher education system there destroying what was one of like the crown jewel of Kansas. They had to cut on education so deeply that a completely Republican controlled House and assembly raised taxes. And Sam Brownback was so utterly disgraced and so utterly hated. The great Kansas Tea Party disaster that's back in 2014 was so thoroughly debunked and destroyed that they actually appointed in the Trump administration, Sam Brownback to be Ambassador to Faith, so they could actually be jettisoned up into the ether and we would never hear from them again. And the idea that they are basing this on Art Laffer and the Laffer curve, they want what is known as dynamic scoring. They have some theory that if you cut taxes, it's going to raise revenue because people are going to work more and try and make more money. Because now that they're making 70% or 80% of their money, instead of like 35, you know, instead of like 65 or 75%, they're going to make so much more money, you know, out of touch. You have to be to think is the tax rate and not like your rent and expenses. That makes sense. They're talking about rich people. I know, I know. That's what I'm saying. They're talking about rich people who can relate to that. And the thing is, is that empirically it's been shown over and over and over and over and over again that this is not true, that Art Laffer is wrong, that when you cut taxes, you don't necessarily raise revenues. It's just not true. And particularly when you top load these taxes, which like these are because as they say, a rich man buys one loaf of bread at a time. They're just using that money to generate basically to buy stocks, which of course, these wealthy people, what they do with their stocks now, they buy the stocks or they get them as, as compensation from their companies. Their stock increases in value. It is not taxed until they sell it. They don't sell it, and then they borrow against it and they keep taking loans against it and the loan cost them 3% because they get a favorable deal. Meanwhile, their stock portfolio is going up by 5% or 8% or 9% or 10%. They don't get taxed on their loans. And that's how they, that's how they just live.

[Jeet Heer]

But do you think because like rich people find these ways to like not pay taxes that these people are like, had seen. Oh, like when the tax rate's higher, it's the rich people are making less money or so like they can't just like.

[Sam Cedar]

I mean, like that's the uber wealthy. I mean there's still, I mean, obviously if, if rich people are paying less in taxes, they're paying less in taxes. They're not taking all, you know, all their compensation is not all from stocks. They're still getting some cash, but it's.

[Jeet Heer]

Like a dummy just like saw tax returns and was like, oh look, they're making less money. Like, no, they're not making less money when the tax rate's higher. This is the greater length to cheat.

[Sam Cedar]

No, Laffer is just, this is just a theory that he came up with. There's no empirical basis for any of this. It's motivated reasoning. What it is totally so bessant, you know, embarrasses himself, but he doesn't care. I mean this is, this is going to be about basically mowing through the parliamentarian. They can't get the CBO to do their dynamic scoring so now they're going to have to just basically pretend that it doesn't increase the deficit, doesn't increase the debt. It's all just going to be a lie. Okay. Lastly, Tomorrow, Saturday the 14th, there's a couple of things happening. 250 years ago tomorrow, the 14th, the Continental army was established as a way of fighting back against the British. The military had decided about as late as like a year ago that they were going to have a small commemorative celebration. Donald Trump became president. His birthday I think is the 14th, is it the same day and has decided that he's going to celebrate. He's going to finally have his big parade. He wanted to do this in the last term and basically he was convinced by Esper and others that like the tanks are going to tear up Washington streets. Well, you've seen the footage of all the tanks that coming from Texas to Washington D.C. and Donald Trump is intending to have a massive military parade tomorrow on Saturday to celebrate his birthday. This is clip number six. Donald Trump announced this a couple of days ago and made it clear he doesn't want any protests there because it's his birthday and there are protests planned for that day. You can go to nokings.org but here is here, let's first play this clip. Do we have it?

[Jeet Heer]

Any message to adversaries as the army.

[Sam Cedar]

Kicks off a 250 year birthday celebration. I just think it's amazing. We're going to have a fantastic June 14th parade. Flag Day. It's going to be an amazing day. We have tanks, we have planes, we have all sorts of things and I think it's going to be great. We're going to celebrate our country for a change. You know, recently, as you know with World War II, the victory of World War II, I called up France and they were celebrating the victory, but we helped, helped them a lot. As you know. I don't have to get into that, but I called up other countries. They were all celebrating the victory. To be clear, we're the only. You know, there's a good reason why you might celebrate a victory when you're in France, because they were occupied. They were literally occupied. They were. They had. In Britain. They were bombed repeatedly. Europe, like, the entire population lived the war. Whole city's just destroyed. So the implications of it may be a little bit different. And of course, this is celebrating the continental army from 250 years ago. I don't know why he's bringing up World War II. The British are coming. They get big parades.

[Jeet Heer]

Good, get into that.

[Sam Cedar]

But I called up other countries. They were all celebrating the victory. We're the only country that didn't celebrate the victory, and we're the one that won the war.

[Jeet Heer]

Okay.

[Sam Cedar]

If it wasn't for us, that war, you would be speaking German right now. Okay, we won the war. Russian. And you might be speaking Japanese, too. I mean, you might be speaking a combination of both. We won the war, and we're the only country that didn't celebrate it. And we're going to be celebrating big on Saturday. We're going to have a lot of. And if there's any protester wants to come out, they will be met with very big force. By the way, for those people that want to protest, they're going to be met with very big force. And I haven't even heard about a protest. But, you know, this is people that hate our country, but they will be met with very heavy force. I haven't even heard about this nokings.org protest that's happening all around the country. I haven't even heard about it. I'm worried about some I never even heard about before. I mean, it's really. It's just his. It's his birthday thing, and he doesn't want it ruined. Go out and protest, meet people, develop networks and embarrass Donald Trump. Meanwhile, somebody raised somebody at a press conference with what's her face? Caroline Levitt asks a question like, hey, is this a little problematic? Like, why are you already planning to meet with big force protesters? Like, people protest. People protest. People protested at, like, the Bush inauguration parade.

[Jeet Heer]

That's.

[Sam Cedar]

That's what was one of the. In fact, one of the big deals about the Continental army was they were fighting ultimately for a constitution in this country which allows freedom of speech against despotism and says there's no king. Here's how this. That question was answered.

[Jeet Heer]

And then on the domestic side, you were just asked about the first Amendment rights issues. In the president's comments yesterday, though, he just said protesters would be strongly dealt with. In your list before you referred to inside insurrectionists, rioters and protesters together. Obviously, they're quite different from your earlier answer. I'm struck by the fact that the president has not at any point said, the most important thing here is to protect the First Amendment rights of peaceful protesters. So I'm wondering where in his hierarchy of interests does he place that is the First Amendment protection?

[Sam Cedar]

The most important is stopping violence. Violence most important.

[Jeet Heer]

Why is he not out saying all peaceful protesters will be protected?

[Sam Cedar]

I think two things can be important at the same time, and the president, as I just answered, supports the right of Americans to peacefully protest. He supports the First Amendment, but that.

[Jeet Heer]

Is not the majority of the behavior.

[Sam Cedar]

That we have seen taking place in Los Angeles. We have seen mobs of violent rioters and agitators assaulting law enforcement officers, assaulting our federal immigration authorities. And we have seen, as I said, this goes back to what this administration is trying to do and accomplish, and that's enforcing law and order in our nation's communities, and it's removing public safety threats from communities in Los Angeles.

[Jeet Heer]

You're saying the majority have not been peaceful majority. I just read for you the arrest numbers. We've arrested nearly 400 illegal aliens alone.

[Sam Cedar]

Just illegally illegal aliens who have been arrested in these riots since June 6th, since they began.

[Jeet Heer]

Yeah.

[Sam Cedar]

And we've had hundreds of people who have assaulted law enforcement officers. Are you saying that that's not pause it here. First off, I seriously doubt there was 400 undocumented immigrants arrested in these protests. But here is the here's the clip that I thought we were going to play here, too. This is how Levitt responded to a reporter following up on that initially. It's interesting, like I noticed, like the way that she responds to one question versus the other.

[Jeet Heer]

The president warned that any protests on.

[Sam Cedar]

Saturday would be met with force. Can you clarify what kind of protest President Trump does support or find acceptable?

[Jeet Heer]

Ms.

[Sam Cedar]

The President absolutely supports peaceful protests. He supports the First Amendment. He supports the right of Americans to make their voices heard. He does not support violence of any kind. He does not support assaulting law enforcement officers who are simply trying to do their job. It's very clear for the president what he supports and what he does not. Unfortunately for Democrats, that line has not been made clear, and they've allowed this unrest and this violence to continue, and the president has had to step in. So if there were peaceful protests on Saturday for the military parade. President Trump would allow that. Of course the president supports peaceful protests.

[Jeet Heer]

What a stupid question.

[Sam Cedar]

Oh, maybe it was a function of him saying, if there's protests. I mean, this is all part of a whole. This is all part of a whole folks line for a reason. It's not just lying because the truth is something they don't care about. They're grasping power. And I'll tell you, you know, here's the thing is that if going back to that guy who's the roofer in Key west, if he didn't know, if Latinas for Trump didn't know that Donald Trump was actually going to deport and break up families and make it impossible for people to even follow the rules, when she goes out there and says, of course, you know, it is an example of how them lying actually helps cement coalition. Cement their coalition. Because remember, like, that's a perfect example of how their, you know, their lies have worked in the past. Had they come out and said, we're going to deport everybody in anybody, not just criminals, and had they come out and said that more explicitly and made that the only thing they said, you may not have people who are surprised at what Trump is doing. So, like, she can be there and lie. And we know, like, wait a second, he's already said something. It's not a stupid question. But it helps cement their constituency. So I don't know, we're getting into, you know, red alert territory. If we weren't already there it is. Well, let me put this way. We've been there for immigrants in this country. We've been there for trans people and other marginalized people, and now it's just like, sort of seeping out. Pay attention. Tell people to pay attention. All right, that's it for us today. We're going to Emma's wedding. Matt, Russ, Emma in abstention. Have a good weekend, folks. A reminder, there is no. Well, I guess maybe this could be cut up as a fun half. I don't know. We'll see. But regardless, no calls. No, I am today. We prerecorded this on Thursday. See you on Monday. Imagine to where I want but I know somehow I'm.