3538 - How the Red Scare Forged Trumpism; Organizing Against ICE w/ Clay Risen, Chris Newman

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Majority Report with Sam Seder

Episode 3538 – How the Red Scare Forged Trumpism; Organizing Against ICE w/ Clay Risen, Chris Newman
Date: December 4, 2025
Host: Emma Vigeland (in for Sam Seder)
Guests: Clay Risen (New York Times reporter, author of Red Blacklists), Chris Newman (Legal Director, National Day Laborer Organizing Network)

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Main Theme & Purpose

This episode explores the historical roots and chilling contemporary echoes of McCarthyite repression in today’s political climate, particularly under the Trump administration. The first long-form interview (with author Clay Risen) investigates how the Red Scare’s culture of surveillance, intolerance, and the targeting of dissent laid groundwork for political repression—especially against progressives, immigrants, and marginalized groups—in the present. The second (with Chris Newman) dives into the on-the-ground impacts of current immigration enforcement tactics, organizing strategies, and what listeners can do to support threatened communities.

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Key Sections & Timestamps

1. Headlines & Context ([03:32]–[19:52])

• Political and Legal News Recap:
  • U.S. job cuts hit 1 million this year, worst since COVID ([04:32])
  • Discord among female GOP legislators and Mike Johnson ([04:52])
  • New inspector general's report slams Pete Hegseth for mishandling classified info ([05:29])
  • NYT sues Pentagon over press restrictions ([05:38])
  • Trump pardons corrupt developer, axes DEI at AT&T ([05:44])
  • CDC may drop hepatitis B vaccine for newborns ([06:09])
  • Democrats press DOJ on Epstein files ([06:28])
  • Israel bombs Gaza and Lebanon, violating ceasefires ([07:00])
  • Anniversary of Fred Hampton’s murder by FBI and police ([07:13])

Tone: Irreverent, sharp, and critical.

“The Trump administration's starting to leak like a sieve. They had a lid on this stuff for a little while, but they're worrying. The rats are scurrying here.” —Emma Vigeland ([08:19])

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2. Deep Dive: The Red Scare’s Enduring Impact (Interview with Clay Risen)

[28:37] Interview begins

A. Historical Context for McCarthyism ([30:06])

• The Red Scare began with legitimate concerns over Soviet espionage, but these were weaponized to justify a broader crackdown on progressive ideas, the New Deal, labor activism, civil rights, and cultural tolerance.

“These fairly specific concerns that were counterintelligence, law enforcement issues became the pretext for a much more sweeping attack on progressive ideas... And I think that's one of the ways that it echoes today.” —Clay Risen ([30:50])

B. Parallels to Today ([31:34])

• Anti-communism quickly morphed into antisemitic, racist, and anti-labor hysteria—mirroring the Trumpist invocation of “outside invaders,” great replacement theory, and authoritarian culture war.

“There's no reason why that has to enter the conversation. And yet very quickly it did.” —Clay Risen ([32:19])

C. The Backlash Against Progress ([33:32])

• McCarthyism was fueled not only by anti-Soviet paranoia, but also by conservatives seeking to turn the clock back on advances for women, people of color, and cultural pluralism post–WWII.
• The “fight” against the New Deal as both policy and cultural order has never fully ended.

D. Hollywood and the Blacklist ([36:21])

• Real “elites” (studio owners/investors) benefited from suppressing labor activism and more socially progressive media. Ayn Rand’s role as intellectual architect of “depoliticized” Hollywood highlighted how cultural production was manipulated.

“The new Hollywood would not talk about wealth disparities, [not] civil rights... After the blacklist, the stories coming out of Hollywood changed for well over a decade.” —Clay Risen ([37:20])

E. Suppression of Liberatory Movements ([40:08])

• Women, Black Americans, and the emerging gay and lesbian community saw hard-won rights rolled back; the Red Scare justified purges under the guise of “morality” and “national security.”
• The “Lavender Scare”: targeting of LGBTQ government workers.

“Hundreds of people were fired simply because they were suspected of not following gender norms.” —Clay Risen ([42:00])

F. Binary Ideology & National Security as Pretext ([43:00])

• Leaving no room for dissent: “If you’re not with us, you’re against us.”
• Labor rights, civil rights, and social equality became synonymous with “subversion.”

“…It was then weaponized by people who, you know, saw it to their advantage to say, okay, in this column is going to be everything I like, and over in that column is going to be everything I don't like.” —Clay Risen ([43:00])

G. Parallels in Today’s War on Education ([44:45])

• The “Minute Women” of the Red Scare era prefigured today’s Moms for Liberty: anti-communist women organizing to purge schools of “suspect” books and progressive teachers.
• Educators were broadly surveilled and often purged for old activism or leftist associations.

“Great teachers were suddenly kicked out of the profession for spurious reasons. Right at the time when... we really needed great teachers.” —Clay Risen ([46:52])

[46:52] Interview End

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3. Organizing Against ICE: Tools, Tactics, and Urgency (Interview with Chris Newman)

[48:54] Interview begins

A. ICE Escalation and Community Impact ([49:07])

• Massive spike in ICE raids, with a focus on non-criminal undocumented immigrants, especially day laborers.
• Targeting of hiring sites and public gathering places, motivating urgent on-the-ground organizing.

“It's fair to say that the day labor community has been terrorized... And I've never seen anything like the crisis we're facing.” —Chris Newman ([50:15])

B. Organizing Tactics & Community Solidarity ([53:00])

• “Adopt a Corner” program mobilizes local families and activists to monitor ICE raids, provide know-your-rights info, and create rapid response networks.
• Community accompaniment to ICE hearings, legal defense fundraising, direct action at major employers (e.g., Home Depot).

“I think people, you know... see communities coming together, organizing around individual cases, accompanying people to ICE hearings, raising money, passing the hat for legal defense...” —Chris Newman ([53:53])

C. Challenges of Political Response ([55:39])

• Contrasts between responses by governors and mayors: spotlights progressive action in Illinois vs. lagging leadership in California.
• Calls for a “scorecard”—policy over rhetoric—for Democratic leaders running for higher office.

D. Policy Solutions & Legal Interventions ([60:31])

• Sanctuary policies: bar local police from cooperating with ICE, as in California.
• Legal interventions: cities can proactively litigate federal overreach (e.g., military parades, ICE acting in defiance of local laws).
• Creative, affirmative lawsuits and rapid response organizing crucial.

“The best way to have better messaging is to have good policies. And the first and best policy that you can have is something that prevents local police and sheriffs and criminal justice from cooperating with ICE.” —Chris Newman ([61:08])

E. What Listeners Can Do ([67:20])

• Donate to direct legal defense funds (link in show notes).
• Volunteer for “Adopt a Corner,” distribute “ICE is not welcome” flyers to local businesses, join community response efforts.
• Stay informed and act locally: Community actions, even small ones, help fight isolation and build resilience.

“My biggest fear, Emma, is that there's a sort of thing that's happening where people aren't clicking on the links anymore because they don't want to get bummed out a little bit...” —Chris Newman ([70:03])

[72:02] Interview End

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• Clay Risen on Echoes of History:
  “What happened during the Red Scare was the imposition of a real black and white ideology... that then was weaponized by people who saw it to their advantage.” ([43:00])

• Chris Newman on Hyperlocal Organizing:
  “The leadership that we're seeing... is coming from the streets and we're just trying to support that leadership.” ([55:05])

• Emma Vigeland’s Framing:
  “There's no national messaging from the Democratic Party about how immigrants are our strength… you don't hear that from the Democrats. And I want that to change.” ([59:43])

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Episode Highlights

• Historical Insight: Offers a nuanced view on how the Red Scare set political and cultural precedents used by today’s authoritarian movements.
• Contemporary Parallels: Direct connections drawn between McCarthy-era tactics (blacklists, cultural panic, purges) and today’s Trumpist policy, especially on civil rights and immigration.
• Grassroots Mobilization: Practical lessons from labor and immigrant organizers, emphasizing the need for local action, legal innovation, and sustained solidarity.
• Urgency & Hope: Despite grim news, guests highlight powerful community defense and the importance of small actions.

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Takeaways

• The playbook of repression and culture war from the Red Scare is alive in contemporary right-wing politics.
• Solidarity, vigilance, and active organizing—especially at the local level—are critical tools in resisting both governmental overreach and cultural rollback.
• Both interviews stress that while history rhymes, it’s grassroots action and policy innovation that will shape the next chapter.

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For more information, links, and opportunities to take action, see the show notes and visit Majority.FM.

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[End of Summary]

Transcript

[Emma Vigiland]

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[Matt Binder]

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[Emma Vigiland]

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[Matt Binder]

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[Sam Cedar]

The Majority Report with Sam Cedar.

[Emma Vigiland]

It is Thursday.

December 4, 2025. My name is Emma Vigiland in for Sam Cedar and this is the five time award winning Majority Report. We are broadcasting live steps from the industrially ravaged Gowanus Canal in the heartland of America, downtown Brooklyn, usa. On the program today, Clay Risen, author of Red Blacklist, McCarthyism and the making of Modern America will be with us. And we're still tbd. We had a bit of a scheduling issue, but potentially somebody from the National Day Laborers Organizers Organizing Network will be with us. They're a little busy with things with organizing. Yes. So don't hold it against them, folks. But we shall see on that front. Otherwise, we have other news to get to. Also on the program, consulting firm Challenger finds that U.S. job cuts have topped $1 million. I mean 1 million. 1 million people. Jesus. This year. The highest since the height of COVID and up over 50% when you compare it to 2024. So economy's not doing great.

Give it time. The girls are coming for Mike Johnson. Female Republicans say the fundamentalist evangelical leader isn't respectful of them. Nancy Mace, Marjorie Taylor Greene and the like.

Oh, and Stefanik. Most notably women.

[Matt Binder]

Am I right guys?

[Emma Vigiland]

Yeah, if it were Mike Johnson.

[Clay Risen]

Gosh darn it. Women.

[Emma Vigiland]

Yeah.

[Matt Binder]

Right.

[Emma Vigiland]

Witches. Witches.

[Chris Newman]

Succubus.

[Emma Vigiland]

Inspector general's report on Pete Hegseth's use of signal is about to be released. Concluding that he committed some wrongdoing.

The New York Times sues the Pentagon over its censorious press restrictions.

Trump pardons a corrupt real estate developer indicted Just months ago by his own DOJ. I see myself in you.

AT&T promises to end its DEI practices. Just coincidentally, AT&T needs FCC approval for a proposed $1 billion purchase of wireless spectrum assets.

CDC advisors meet today on whether or not to scrap hepatitis B vaccine recommendations for newborns. That has saved millions of lives globally.

But at what cost?

Literally no cost, buddy.

Democrats release images of Epstein island and the DOJ dodges questions about the files ahead of that Dec. 19 deadline for their release.

Trump renames the Institute of Peace after himself.

I don't have much more detail. I've got a great piece.

Didn't you see my hands?

[Clay Risen]

Sorry.

[Emma Vigiland]

Not during the headlines, Brian. Don't apologize. That's my thing, to constantly say sorry.

Israel bombs Gaza and Lebanon overnight, violating both ceasefires continuously, over and over and over and over again.

[Matt Binder]

What does the word cease mean?

[Emma Vigiland]

Yeah or yeah?

And lastly, on this day in 1969, Fred Hampton of the Black Panther Party was drugged and killed by the FBI and Chicago police. All this and more on today's Majority Report. Welcome to the show, everybody. It's an M Majority Report Thursday. So happy to be with you. We will get right into it. Biggest story of the day is that, well, I mean, last night there were a few major stories that ended up breaking in legacy media publications. And when I see something like this, or just the past few weeks really starting since the Epstein vote, which has also triggered Trump enormously, I mean, this is where he's been. That's when the quiet piggy happened. This is when his Trump truth social.

Posting sprees were happening. His most emotional meltdowns seem to have been triggered by his inability to. To quash this and having essentially the entire.

Legislative body of Republicans revolt against him because the base wanted this. And he was unable to assuage them because he's likely very much implicated. And so now we're starting to see. And also, of course, the, the election results being so poor for Republicans across the board, the Trump administration's starting to leak like a sieve. They had a lid on this stuff for a little while, but they're worrying. The rats are scurrying here. Matt, do you want to say something?

[Matt Binder]

I was just going to say, you know, at some point we talked about, like, the Steve Bannon thing from earlier this year where he said, you know.

[Matt Bender]

People are just going to have to.

[Matt Binder]

Get used to it. Trump's going to be the President 2028-2032. And that is, I think, a threat against democracy. And that should be taken seriously. But it's also something that Trump needs to say because the second that people start looking at him as a lame duck and thinking about, well, what's after this, his power starts to evaporate extremely quickly. And I think like a lot of these cracks we're seeing now is because of that 100%.

[Emma Vigiland]

I mean, he is careening towards lame duck territory. And the first year of his presidency isn't even.

[Chris Newman]

What was that? Sorry.

[Emma Vigiland]

And by careening, I mean a Secret Service person is driving a golf cart really fast. He's not able to to Karine, at this point, walking might be hard too. Right. We've seen that limp. His health is obviously deteriorating. But this inspector general's report is also making a lot of waves here. There was a multi month investigation by the Pentagon's internal watchdog about Pete Hegseth sending classified information over Signal. If you'll remember that story, you know, the one where he added the reporter from the Atlantic as well as his wife and brother, by the way, to a commercially available chat on Signal or the app Signals. Commercially available. Point being. And not secure for this kind of thing.

[Matt Binder]

Not through official channels.

[Emma Vigiland]

You're not supposed to be talking about airstrikes on Signal.

[Matt Binder]

It should be through a communications platforms that can be like easily recovered in case you need to maybe investigate war crimes or something like that.

[Emma Vigiland]

I mean, this is why they're using Signal. They're not using their official channels. And that is what this, this inspector general's inspector general report ended up finding. Like they didn't necessarily deal with.

All of the potential illegalities here, but they basically found that he was using his personal device for official business and that he put.

Military personnel, US Military personnel in danger here. And the document just to point out.

[Matt Binder]

Like there was like times that the planes carrying the bombs were leaving the aircraft carriers and stuff like.

[Sam Cedar]

Right.

[Matt Binder]

Which is like I don't know what more you need to know.

[Emma Vigiland]

Exactly. And so there was a full, the full classified report was shared with the House and Senate Armed Services committees yesterday. It appears like it's likely to come out today. And here is Representative Mike Turner of Ohio high up on the Armed Services Committee in the House on Morning Joe this morning. And listen to this tone about this compared to how Republicans have spoken about Trump's brazenly illegal actions in the months prior to this.

[Chris Newman]

Start by asking you what are the top one or two questions that you would like answered that Pete Hegseth has.

[Sam Cedar]

Refused to answer for the Armed Services.

[Chris Newman]

Committees in the House and Senate?

[Sam Cedar]

Well, Joe, as You just indicated, I mean, as you were going over some of the scenarios and some of the outcomes that are concerning here, you can understand that the discussions that are happening between members of Congress. You know, we start first with the legal opinion under which these attacks on these boats first began. And members of Congress had questions as to whether or not the validity of the legal opinion, the construct of the legal opinion, and then the operations that were being undertaken under the constructs of legal opinion, and then the questions that arose after the questions of this second tap, or however many taps it was that may have occurred here, that clearly, you know, fall under the Law of War manual under the questions of the circumstances of this act. But what's really clear here is that, you know, this is not necessarily the normal rules of engagement. This is not a battlefield. And where they're undertaking these attacks under, you know, what is this issue of attacking the drug trade? You know, this is not the normal construct that we have of terrorism where we think of like ISIS or Afghanistan or Iraq. So there's very much concerns where we all go back to the issue of the intelligence and what intelligence is being used. What do we really know about these individuals? What do we know about this cargo? What do we know about the communications that here. And quite frankly, many members have very much concerns as to whether or not the accuracy of what information is being used is to the level for us to even know what's happening in this area. And members are very concerned.

[Chris Newman]

Mr. Chairman.

[Emma Vigiland]

That's good. I should have set that up a little bit better. That was about the other blatantly illegal action that this Department of Defense has taken. That was about the Venezuela boat strikes, which they're also going to be looking into. This morning it was revealed that that admiral, the Navy admiral, who Hegseth threw under the bus and basically said, we stand by you 100%. Admiral Bradley.

[Brandon]

Frank.

[Chris Newman]

Mitch Bradley.

[Emma Vigiland]

Yeah.

[Matt Binder]

The decision that you made, the decision that you made that I wasn't in the room for that, I didn't see right.

[Emma Vigiland]

Even stick around me. I was in the room. I just gave the general vibe that I wanted you to do it, but I didn't do this illegal action.

[Matt Binder]

He did the right thing. But just remember the fog of war.

[Emma Vigiland]

Right in the conference room.

[Chris Newman]

The.

[Emma Vigiland]

So he's going to be basically testifying today on.

[Matt Binder]

And we should just say, since it's Pete Hegseth we're talking about, he's a black guy.

[Emma Vigiland]

Oh, no, no, that's a different admiral. We're getting all. See, this is. I'm saying there's a, there's a big stew of not this Admiral Bradley is not. He's going to be testifying. We'll see what he says. Because I would be pretty pissed if I were him.

[Matt Binder]

Gotcha.

[Emma Vigiland]

If you had this like completely incompetent booze hound blaming TV star. Yeah. Saving your skin so publicly, his own skin so publicly, and throwing you under the bus. It'll be interesting to see, I think, both the tenor of the Republicans questions towards him and his reaction to them, obviously. But the story that Matt is alluding to there is again another legacy publication, the Wall Street Journal had a story last night about Pete Hegseth. This is when I talk about the rats scurrying here. Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth shocked official Washington in mid October when he announced that the four star head of US military operations in the Caribbean was retiring less than a year into his tenure. But according to two Pentagon officials, Hegseth asked Admiral Alvin Holsey to step down. The de facto ouster that was the culmination of months of discord between Hegseth and the officer. It began days after President Trump's inauguration in January and intensified months later when Halsey had initial concerns about the legality of lethal strikes on alleged drug boats in the Caribbean. According to former officials aware of the discussions, not long after Hegseth announced that Halsey would be retiring, he, I think was the first black man in his position.

[Matt Binder]

Gotcha.

[Emma Vigiland]

This is obviously not a coincidence. The Trump administration has been just attacking both senior black officials across a variety of different agencies, but also like the first in their position to be black.

[Matt Binder]

The Kill Bill alarm cook, for example.

[Emma Vigiland]

Yeah, and I mean it's just between them openly tweeting out very obvious Nazi phrases from official accounts. It's just the Klansmen, it's.

It sounds rote, but we can't, we can't talk about this administration without talk about the deep white supremacy that is embedded in it across a variety of different agencies. And just so you know, this guy wasn't just like too woke or something. The Admiral Ace.

[Matt Binder]

The four star.

[Emma Vigiland]

The four star. The guy who's like a multi decade veteran of the Navy. The admiral, a 60 year old Navy helicopter pilot nicknamed Bull, total softy, had seemed a good fit to carry out Trump's military campaign against drug traffickers. After the new President came into office, Halsey voiced support for stepping up interdiction of drug shipments and had experience at such missions. My first deployment to the Southcom area of responsibility was over 33 years ago conducting counter drug missions, he told lawmakers at his senate confirmation during September 2024, arguing for a more muscular approach to dismantle the drug cartels responsible for tens of thousands of American deaths. You would think that this would be a perfect fit with the Trump administration. But no. Later in the summer, as the military began striking alleged drug boats, Holsey was initially concerned about murky legal authority for the boat strike campaign, according to former officials. With other military units under separate chains of command also involved, including elite special operations units. Halsey objected that parts of the operations fell outside his direct control, they said. But even before the boat strikes began, Hegseth had lost confidence in Halsey and was looking to replace him, according to a US Official.

[Matt Binder]

He lost. Did he ever have confidence in him?

[Emma Vigiland]

There's something about. I can't put my finger on it. It's like the Stavi bit about the guys in Maryland who just love Joe Flacco but can't get behind Lamar. There's something about him that I can't. Yeah, yeah, right. I like a big, armed white guy that's. Is he a wide receiver? I can't do a Baltimore accent. I'm just dangerously approaching, trying to do an impression. But yeah.

That'S the vibe here. And so we'll see what happens with Pete Hegseth. I do think it's interesting that this is where they're kind of, I think, directing the energy. He's under a lot of fire right now. So much so that he had to go on Katie Miller's podcast. We'll play that maybe a little bit later to talk about how he's a family man. He brought his wife on. He brought his wife on and then said, I wouldn't trust your husband to babysit my kids. So. And to be fair to Hedgehog French braided through the whole interview, too. It's so gross. Right. So this is not the ex wife that said that he was abusive. This is the new ex wife. Yeah, I'm sure she'll say that in four years. Or not. The other ex wife who he was with when there was the rape allegation against him and the police report and the woman that said he drugged him and she went to a nurse and everything about it. It wasn't that one. I get all of the women that he's allegedly harmed.

[Matt Binder]

Speaking of women, he does still have the same mother that sent that email in 2018 about all that stuff.

[Chris Newman]

Right.

[Matt Binder]

That people can look at.

[Emma Vigiland]

She retracted it, though, when, you know, it was an opportunity for her son to be Secretary of War.

[Matt Binder]

Some things are hard to retract.

[Matt Bender]

I don't know.

[Emma Vigiland]

Some things are.

In a moment we will be talking to Clay Risen. First, a word from some of our sponsors. It can be so easy to say to myself that I'll never forget to ask my parents about stories about them growing up and having all of these memories cataloged. And you just kind of put it off and you don't like to think about it because it could be a little bit morbid and sad. But I did this, I think two holidays ago, Storyworthy, and it just was exactly what I needed to kind of make sure that I had my loved ones. I don't know, just memories or their experience kind of categorized. It's perfect. I recommend Story Worth Memoirs for your loved ones this holiday season. It's a meaningful gift and it may sound intimidating, but it's so easy. They will love it. It's a gift they won't see coming. Something that makes them feel truly special. Each Work Story each week Storyworth emails a loved one a memory provoking question that you get to choose. Questions like what were your favorite toys as a child? 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[Chris Newman]

Rise.

It's we are back and we.

[Emma Vigiland]

Are joined now by Clay Risen, reporter and editor at the New York Times, author of red blacklists, McCarthyism and the making of Modern America. Clay, thanks so much for coming on the show.

[Clay Risen]

Today. Well, thanks for having.

[Emma Vigiland]

Me. Of course. You know, I've been thinking a lot about, like, the Red Scare and, of course, McCarthyism over the past few years with. And in an accelerated manner in the last year, given the fact that the Trump administration has been openly prosecuting people, locking people up for their political speech, particularly on the issue of Israel's genocide in Gaza. And what I loved about your book is that it talks about McCarthyism in a way that isn't just this kind of more narrow focus on Hollywood or the blacklist, which is a really important tale, but it's. It's been done before, and it almost expands it a bit to, like, how the Red Scare was in many ways also a cultural war against, like, the labor movement progress in general. And it's so eerie because it's very similar in many ways to the Trump era and builds on that. And you see how he learned from Roy Cohn and how Stephen Miller learned from that. I mean, there's history is. Is always kind of replicating itself, I guess, is. Is where I land here. But just, you know, why did you want to take that tack? And why did you. What elements of the red scare and McCarthyism did you think people didn't fully.

[Clay Risen]

Understand? Yeah, I mean, originally, I had not planned to write this book as some sort of resonance to the present. You know, I started this back in the first Trump administration. And, you know, look, there are echoes. They're always sort of, you know, things in the water. But I had no idea that it would be so on the nose in 2025. The book finished last year. But. But look, I think the thing that I was very interested in throughout working on the project was that, you know, the Red Scare, there were reasons or good reasons to be concerned about Soviet espionage and subversion. But what happened during the Red Scare was that these fairly specific concerns that were counterintelligence, law enforcement issues became the pretext for a much more sweeping attack on progressive ideas on the New Deal, on the political establishment after World War II. And I think that's one of the things people don't understand about the Red Scare. They don't sort of see the broadness of it. But also I think that's one of the ways that it echoes today. I think you see a lot of that kind of these specific concerns about drug trafficking or about illegal or undocumented immigration becoming pretexts for much broader assaults on large communities across the United.

[Emma Vigiland]

States. Well, and when you talk about drug trafficking, there's still that outside invader quality to it as well. Right. And you look at that, I was struck by, of course, the anti Semitism of the Red Scare, you know, the bloodlust for the execution of the Rosenbergs. You tell a story about Helen Bryan in your book, but how that echoes the great replacement rhetoric of today, which is both about Jewish puppet masters trying to change the culture or change the fabric of.

[Clay Risen]

Society. Yeah, I mean, one of the things about the Red Scare that immediately comes to the fore is that, you know, you're talking about espionage or subversion. There's no.

Ethnic character to it per se, but it immediately became an excuse for anti Semites and anti Semitism to come to the fore. You know, as well as anti black racism, there's nothing particularly. There's no reason why that has to enter the conversation. And yet very quickly it did. And it just gives a lie to the idea that really all that was going on was this hunt for subversion and spies was really much broader. It was a pretext for attacking civil rights, labor rights, women's rights. It was a pretext for anti Semitic attacks. And again, I think that it's hard not to see those echoes in.

[Emma Vigiland]

2025.

Certainly not. And can you give us then just back up a little bit about the context of the red scare and McCarthyism in even, you know, or I guess the second one.

But post war America, the New Deal era, what that environment looked like as you saw this.

[Clay Risen]

Escalate. Yeah. So Following World War II, there was the immediate onset of the Cold War and tensions with the Soviet Union. And pretty solid evidence the Soviet Union had, at various points in the past, infiltrated spies into the United States, that it did have an arm domestically in the American Communist Party. And this synced up with what had been a kind of simmering anti progressive campaign going back to the 1930s and a real sort of backlash against everything that the New Deal represented. Not just new policies and not just a new role for the government, but also a new culture that was more tolerant, more cosmopolitan, more progressive in all its approaches to minority rights and to women and people of color. And so that fight had been kind of put on the back burner because of the Great Depression and World War II. And so it emerged as well in the post war era. And so the Red Scare is really the coming together of these two urgencies. Right. This need for national security in the Cold War era and the fear of Communist Russia or the Soviet Union as a national security issue. And then this idea that we could use that as a reason to start to prosecute this campaign, this idea to push back not just the New Deal as a policy framework, but really, to push back on these cultural changes that had happened, that there were a lot of people who wanted to go back to the america of the 1920s, the America that was more patriarchal, that was more white, run by white.

[Emma Vigiland]

Men. Wealth, concentration is very, very similar to.

[Clay Risen]

Now. Yeah, yeah, it's, you know, I think in some ways that fight didn't end with the end of the Red Scare. And it's something that, you know, still is a, is a, an undercurrent in American.

[Emma Vigiland]

Politics.

Ken, I know that your book is about, of course, you know, more than the Hollywood element and the blacklist, but I am, you know, I am curious about a few elements of it. You talk about Ayn Ra in your book and the role that she played as a bit of a counterweight to these Hollywood lefties and her role in Hollywood. But what did Hollywood elites and wealthy folks get out of McCarthyism? Was there any.

Benefit to them to having this.

I guess, the governmental crackdown on some of the artists in the industry? I mean, are they submerged in the story at.

[Clay Risen]

All? Yeah, I mean, one of the things that the, one of the parallels between the fight in Hollywood and today is that a lot of the elites, or let's say a lot of the celebrities in Hollywood were left leaning and were seen as a kind of elite and were targeted for that reason, when in fact, the real elite in Hollywood, the real powerful elite, were the studio executives and the investors who owned the studios. And they were not progressive by any means. And they were very happy to see the Red Scare come to Hollywood, to see some of the activists and celebrities who had lined up behind union activism, who had tried to change the way that stories were told in Hollywood to bring more representation of women and people of color into the movie industry. You know, the elites, the real elites, were happy to see those voices quieted. And, you know, you mentioned Rand, and she was a real sort of, I want to call it an intellectual but, you know, real voice for outlining how the new Hollywood was going to look. And, you know, according to her, and she had a manifesto that laid this out. You know, the new Hollywood would not talk about wealth disparities, it would not talk about civil rights, it would not talk about the common man. And she was very successful. That is what you saw after the House UN American Activities Committee came and kind of help launch the blacklist. The stories coming out of Hollywood changed for well over a.

[Emma Vigiland]

Decade.

I mean, it's hard not again to see parallels to today, of course, and even the financialization of that industry and Perhaps we're in a different era now, and there may be less tolerance for the blacklisting that was happening, perhaps less formal. Right. But the attacks on those artists from maybe a year or so ago, it's still ongoing. But it was also at a time where the industry is rejecting more risky creative choices that might be a little bit more challenging in many ways for sequels. Nostalgia, it's more financialized, in a.

[Clay Risen]

Way. Yeah. And one of the things, we could just say this all day. One of the parallels or the echoes is the really rapid turn of events and the backlash in the way that the stories that were being told, the voices that were being heard just a few years ago, have now been marginalized. And whether that's in Hollywood or in the classroom or just in the cultural discourse, things have changed dramatically. And the same thing happened during the Red Scare. People who were front and center in debates about, let's say, civil rights in the 1930s were suddenly added to the blacklists and were marginalized very quickly. And you sort of can look in both cases as to why that happened. And it's because elites simply saw a new opportunity to change the discourse and to start talking in a way that was more beneficial to them. And.

It can have long running effects. I mean, this is not something that will change based on the midterm.

[Emma Vigiland]

Elections. Well, and it's also, I mean, you write about how many of these stories, too, and they included things like the liberation of women and when we're coming out of World War II, where women were brought into the war effort and there's this new awareness that's I would imagine, immensely threatening and more dignified portrayals of black Americans as the civil rights movement is brewing. That's also a part of this as well. And you see how that the liberation of people or uplifting of those voices is a genuine threat to kind of the same people at the very.

[Clay Risen]

Top. Yeah. One thing just to add to that, I have a chapter in the book talking about what's called the Lavender Scare. And this was a direct outgrowth of a surprising thawing of homophobic and anti gay structures in, particularly in the cities during the Great Depression and World War II, when it was possible. I mean, Washington, D.C. being first and foremost, where it was possible as long as you were careful. And I'm not going to say it was some sort of utopia for gay men and queer people, but it was possible to live a life where you were kind of out. And there was a lot of change going on. And then there was an enormous backlash against all of that going into the 1950s. And it wasn't just cultural, it was governmental. There were just concerted efforts, very specific efforts to root out gay men and lesbian women from government office and from government service. The State Department was target number one. And hundreds of people were fired simply because they were suspected of.

Not following gender norms. And one of the consequences of that is some really good, really hardworking and smart diplomats, people we needed during the Cold War, were suddenly fired. Their lives were essentially ended because of.

[Emma Vigiland]

That. And there's this overarching theme of a combination of, you know, more. A more libertary economic situation for people or people basically being uplifted in a variety of different ways, whether it's women, black people, queer people, and then this just force of power. And it's under this guise of, like, rooting out moral degeneracy for the most part. But you see, I mean, Hoover was. Was gay. And like, you have that being used as blackmail, potentially, or as a way, a cudgel, I guess, against the.

Lefties that were trying to change.

[Clay Risen]

Society. Yeah, I mean, what happened during the Red Scare was this imposition of a real black and white ideology and one that said during the Cold War, there is one side and there's the other side, and you are either with America or you're against it. And. And it was then, you know, and that's bad in itself. But what that ideology, then what happened, it was then weaponized by people who, you know, saw it to their advantage to say, okay, in this column is going to be everything I like, and over in that column is going to be everything I don't like. And so labor rights and women's rights, they're going to go in the communist column, and we're just going to say that everything, everybody who advocates for desegregation, they're going to be questioned. Everybody who we think might be gay, they're going to go. We were going to say that they might be communist or because they might be blackmailed, they're going to go in the other column, and we're going to sort of do everything we can to oppress them and to marginalize them, and we're going to do it under the pretext of national security. So no one can really question what we're doing. This is, you know, this is the new era when we have to be vigilant. And it's just amazing how deep and how long that lasted as a way of ordering American society, how many people suffered because of that. And in the end, it didn't improve our national security at.

[Emma Vigiland]

All. Right. Can you talk a bit about education and how the Red Scare in that era, there was a war on different forms of education. We're seeing some of this today as well. In terms of the parallels we've.

[Clay Risen]

Outlined. Yeah. I mean, one thing that jumps out, just like today we have the Moms for Liberty. Back then there was a group called the Minute Women. And the Minute Women were essentially the same idea. These were chapters around the country of anti communist women activists who believed that they needed to take the fight to schools. And so they would either, you know, go into school board meetings and, you know, raise protests, they would try to take over school boards and they would then, you know, essentially impose their agenda, their ideology on schools and say, well, there are these books that we can no longer read. There were long lists of prescribed books that went around the country. And some of them, the justification was impossible to explain. You know, often it was the author themselves was somehow questionable or some. The content was, you know, too anti elite or too focused on the common man. Right. These were potentially communistic books, you know, no different from today. And teachers themselves were targeted. You know, if you were a teacher who promoted desegregation or you thought the UN was a good idea, you might find yourself either investigated or even fired. Hundreds of teachers, even here, right, in New York City, were investigated and fired because of either beliefs and positions they took in the classroom or maybe something they had done as a college student, you know, petition they had signed. Suddenly they were very much under. Under the microscope. And it, again, not only ruined the lives of countless people, but it also did a great disservice to us as a country. Great teachers were suddenly kicked out of the profession for spurious reasons. Right at the time when, you know, we, we always need great teachers, but arguably in the 1950s, we really needed great.

[Emma Vigiland]

Teachers. Right. Well, it's fascinating stuff. Really appreciate your time today. Thanks so much for coming on. Clay Risen. The book is called red scare blacklists, McCarthyism and the making of Modern America. We'll put a link to that down below. Wherever people are listening to or watching this. Holidays are coming up. Books are great to give. Thanks so much, Clay. Really appreciate your.

[Clay Risen]

Time. Thanks so much for having.

[Emma Vigiland]

Me. Quick break, folks. And when we come back, we do have a guest, fortunately, from the National Day Laborer Organizing Network. Chris Newman, their legal director, will join us in just a.

[Chris Newman]

Bit.

Jam.

[Emma Vigiland]

Sam.

Ready? We are back. We are back. Joined now by Chris Newman, legal director for the National Day Laborer Organizing Network. Chris, thanks so much for coming on the.

[Matt Bender]

Show. Thank you so much for inviting.

[Emma Vigiland]

Me. Of course. So just tell us a little bit about your work at the National Day Labor Organizing Network, because we're seeing, you know, we're getting the numbers. There was a piece in Axios this morning about the incredible, not in a good way, influx of ICE arrests. They're primarily targeting people who have no criminal record. And even if the folks that they're also increasing and targeting like they have an arrest, not necessarily a conviction, that kind of thing. And they're going after day laborers in particular, targeting them in area at point, some stores like Home Depot, we've been showing some of that footage. What has your organization been doing on that.

[Matt Bender]

Front? Well, first, I mean, let's. I mean, I think it's important to accurately describe the crisis because you know, I'm zooming in from Los Angeles and what we're experiencing in the city here is nothing short of a human rights crisis along the lines that you described. They're looking for.

Where there are large numbers of Spanish speaking, low wage workers, non white, low wage workers, they use this notion of criminality, oftentimes trying to identify one person as a pretext to then do a kind of arrest first and ask questions later approach which is totally antithetical to every notion of due process and constitutional values that we have. And so locations such as day labor, hiring sites, car washes, other locations where there are large groups of people tend to be what they call target rich environments. And so it's fair to say that the day labor community has been terrorized, first in Los Angeles, but now as we're seeing, you know, it's spreading across the country. We've been doing everything we can with our scarce resources to rush to the gunfire and try to mitigate the unnecessary suffering that is being brought on by these raids. Ours is a network that is comprised of 70 organizations around the country that work with day laborers. We kind of pool our resources. I've been the legal director there for 20 years and I've never seen anything like the crisis that we are facing. On the other hand, the response of our members and supporters has been, has been nothing short of inspirational. So what we do is we in Los Angeles, first and foremost, we started something called the Immigrant Defense Fund, which I think you can find easily on Google. We ask for people to donate money and then we make sure that low wage workers get high quality immigration defense in appropriate cases. And then we will sort of use those clients as places where we can get information to support other lawsuits.

[Emma Vigiland]

As well, we will put a link to that donation website that you mentioned down below and where people are listening to or watching this. But can you speak a little bit more about your organizing strategy in the wake of this level of. Yeah. The human rights violations, the targeted enforcement of this. The ICE budget now.

The crazy expansion of it is now hitting right. October, I think, was when the fiscal year started. So the budget from that was agreed upon by the Republicans and some Democrats earlier this year is coming into effect. And then you're also seeing those quotas being more fulfilled in terms of the amount that these ICE agents are doing targeting people. Like, what have these last six weeks looked like even in comparison to the previous part of the.

[Matt Bender]

Year? Well, there was a dramatic escalation across the country, but in particular in Los Angeles, both in scale and in violence. You got a little bit of an unlucky break that I'm filling in from my colleague Jorge, who is one of our gifted organizers. Endolon is primarily an organizing network, but I happen to do the legal work. So unfortunately, I think I'll probably keep veering my answers that way, just kind of reflexively. But what we've done, which has really been magnificent, is we created this kind of adopt a corner program where communities are coming together basically to defend their own towns and locations. And so we have, you know, soccer moms showing up to Home Depots with cameras with know your rights information, doing all of the rapid response kind of meager watch stuff. And those little.

Committees are growing in sort of breadth and depth around the country. And it's been a beautiful. A beautiful thing to see, because, I mean, what we're seeing, obviously, is a calamity that's being brought from the top down. And I think it's important, and I don't want to editorialize too much to note that Trump is just sort of the capstone on a kind of bipartisan consensus war on immigrants that's taken place for over 25 years. And so it's not. People get divided. Is this, like, not normal, or is it, like, just an extension of what has been normal? And count me in the latter camp. And so I think people, you know, who are, you know, obviously part of the intention, the political project, is to divide people, divide communities physically, you know, you know, metaphorically, but to see communities coming together, organizing around individual cases, accompanying people to ICE hearings, you know, raising money, passing the hat for legal defense, doing what we just did last week in Monrovia, you know, incredible demonstration with a bunch of old Primarily elderly folks doing an old fashioned Alinsky style buy in at Home Depot, clogging Home Depot.

To sort of make the point that Home Depot needs to be safe for everyone. So we're seeing, you know, in general, what I've said repeatedly, I think it's true, is the leadership that we're seeing in definitely la, Chicago, other places is leadership is coming from the streets and we're just trying to support that leadership. And you know, I think you've seen, for example, in Illinois, the governor and mayor have gotten the memo in a sense and I think are following the lead of a community that's unifying and coming together. I think California leaders have been a little slower.

[Emma Vigiland]

Frankly. Can you expand on that? Because I think that's an important point. Right. I do think that the way that Pritzker and Johnson responded was more unified than anything we saw coming out of Newsom and Bass. And it feels like they're lagging a little bit in protecting the.

[Matt Bender]

Community. Oh, to say the least, honestly. And remember, Mayor Bass had her approval rating in the dumps after the fire. People were very upset with how slow and uncoordinated the response to the fires were right when Trump took office. In some ways she's been buoyed by her show of support for immigrants, but she hasn't been doing the types of policy and legal interventions yet that we've seen.

In Chicago.

And Illinois. Ditto with Governor Newsom. I'm not sure exactly.

[Emma Vigiland]

Criterion. Oh, yeah, okay, go.

[Matt Bender]

On.

Honestly, can I just say, here's my one little like unsolicited hot take since I'm on this.

[Emma Vigiland]

Podcast. Editorialize away. This is what this is.

[Matt Bender]

For. I, I would love. I mean, we have two people that are clearly running for president in Newsom and Pritzker. And rather than like what we've had for the last 25 years with Democrats, which is just like pretty talking, lip service posturing, you know, kind of focus group tested messaging. I would like to see, starting now, a kind of scorecard where we measure the response of Newsom and Pritzker for the next three years who did more to protect the residents of their states, the non citizen residents of their states. And we'll start there when they go into the primary and evaluating before we hear what they're going to say about the DREAM act or whatever. And it would be neat if we could get a kind of race to the top. You know, we have, for example, in Seattle, the police chief there came out and made this incredibly courageous statement and show of solidarity saying that he, you know, anticipated potentially getting arrested to defend.

Immigrants. People might be shocked to know Karen Bass appointed a Trump supporting police chief in LA in Jim McDonald, somebody who was the principal opponent of the sanctuary state bill that end on championed that is protecting hundreds of thousands of people right now, preventing raids from taking place at police stations and sheriff's departments and jails. So Louisiana has, does not have an ally in its police chief due to the really terrible decision of Karen Bass to appoint that guy versus again, you know, you see a guy like the chief in Seattle, we should see, I hope, a race to the top in terms of actual material achievements.

By local elected officials. And obviously everyone is welcoming Mamdani. I had a chance to speak with the mayor elect. I had five minutes of fame working on Tomar Brego Garcia's case and I had a chance to talk to. It feels surreal to say the mayor elect at MSNBC in one of those green rooms. And he is the real deal. He's gonna, you know, he's an immigrant mayor and he's gonna stand up for immigrants and hopefully he will set a new bar that will then inspire, you know, Mayor Bass, Mayor Johnson and other mayors to do more. So that's my little.

Unsolicited please for the political class not to again evaluate just all this messaging and kind of ethereal talk which has kind of infected the politics of immigration from the Democratic Party side. We don't need shows of sympathy or solidarity or statements about dignity. We need material interventions that protect community residents, like now. And there are lots of things that governors and mayors can do that hopefully they will be politically motivated to do in the next three.

[Emma Vigiland]

Years. I think you can both make a positive case for immigration and return that to people's civic minds, which many Democrats are just not doing. I mean, Zoran Mamdani has been good on that. And that's just because he's, you know, he's pretty much good on everything. But like, you know, there's no national messaging from the Democratic Party about how immigrants are our strength, that this is a nation of immigrants. The kind of stuff that you would hear about in history class or civics class or whatever when you were in high school. You don't hear that from the Democrats. And I want that to change. But the material kind of protections that you're talking about are of urgent importance. Can you explain what those look like in your experience? And what are some easy ways that this could.

[Matt Bender]

Happen? Totally. But just before I get to that, I mean, it was a little bit triggering in your question. I'll take the messaging, the good messaging, too. I was down in El Salvador. I got detained with Senator Von Hollen when we were trying to access Kilmar Brego Garcia outside of ccut. By then we were three weeks or so into what was a sustained effort, clearly by Trump to kind of use, you know, Trump was using Kilmar to distract from whatever economic news. But we were responding three weeks in. And I'm talking about every day on the front page. And there was zero message guidance from the Democratic Party to members that were going on Meet the Press or whatever. And I know that for, for a fact. And so you get an absence of messaging. Thank God Senator Van Hollen set the gold standard and introduced the notion of due process. And recognize the fact that Kilmar Abrego Garcia is a civil rights leader. He will be understood in history books as a civil rights leader for all of us. And I'm grateful to Senator Van Hollen for introducing that message. But we get nothing from, for example, Majority Leader Jeffries. And then when we do get something, we get what we got yesterday, which was like trash. I mean, him defending the Trump border record was just astonishing, jaw dropping. No need for him to do that. But maybe he's listening to whatever think tank in D.C. is telling him to triangulate anyhow. So we do need better messaging too. But the best way to have better messaging is to have good policies. And the first and best policy that you can have is something that prevents local police and sheriffs and criminal justice from cooperating with ice, so called sanctuary policies. And we just won again the most recent legal challenge against the California policy yesterday. These have an undefeated record in federal court. Something that easily jurisdictions can do, they can prohibit their local police and sheriffs from cooperating because the way in which mass deportations are effectuated and the reason why Obama deported more people in his first term than Trump did in his first term was because they were using police as so called force multipliers. You know, these fat guys that you see on television running around chasing people and you know, at the Home Depot there's only so many of them and they can only get so many people. But if they can use every squad car, every police in a city, you know, now all of a sudden you're talking about mass deportations. So that's the first thing. Other things you can do are, for example, like something we did in Los Angeles, you can require that big box stores where big box construction stores like Home Depot, you can require that they build shelters and day labor centers. So Los Angeles has an ordinance, believe it or not, that requires if Home Depot is to build another store in la, that they have to build a shelter in a safe place for day laborers. That's something that cities can do. There's been a lot of interest in Home Depot lately. That's a policy intervention as well. You know, I think there's a whole array of things, and I could go on and on, but there are, in fact, good policies. There are lawsuits that can be filed, affirmative lawsuits that can be filed. I think it's been a mistake by some of these attorneys general to just merely jump in as amicus on lawsuits from the ACLU and lawsuits with some of ours. They could initiate their own lawsuits. I'll give you a perfect example. And again, not to keep, like, harping on my hometown mayor, who obviously does a lot of good, too, and is constrained. But that day, if you think back when they did that whole, like, military parade in MacArthur park and down early on in June, when they did the.

Easily, easily, the city of Los Angeles could have filed a 10th Amendment lawsuit on that day challenging the fact that they were doing a military parade, you know, and usurping city resources, but they didn't. So hopefully there will be more legal capacity lent by local jurisdictions as well. And I do think also in the next three years, we're gonna see some attorneys general and district attorneys distinguish themselves in this.

Trump 2.0 era. And again, not through kind talk, not through statements of sympathy, but through creative litigation. And whereas Trump won, there was this kind of flash of resistance, and then it kind of dissipated. It feels like, on a hopeful note, that there's a kind of steadier, more sustained material buildup that's happening this time.

[Emma Vigiland]

Around. I do feel quite lucky here in New York to have, for our neighbors here, for us to have Letitia James, who has a pretty good track record of coming up with these kinds of creative legal ways to fight back against the Trump administration. Then she'll have buy in from the mayor elect, of course, Zoran Mamdani. So I'm thinking of you guys in la, I think, you know, the organizing, dsa, that kind of stuff, you're. You're getting there. You're getting there, but it's. Yeah, it's. It's still lagging a bit. Go.

[Matt Bender]

Ahead. My pitch to, to your listeners or viewers is, you know, obviously if you go upstream of this whole. Everyone's got their theory about what led to Trumpism, but, you know, social isolation and an erosion of community are at the core of it, no matter if you're living in Nashville, Louisiana, Chicago, wherever. And the one again, hopeful and neat thing about getting involved in a hyper local.

Effort to defend your community is that you meet really cool people. I remember when we were doing the fire response work again early when Trump was. I remember meeting people that literally did like a Tinder date at a mutual aid center. You know, there's cool, there's cool kind of community building that can happen.

And you can, you can kind of fight that sense of powerlessness that we all have. I mean there's no, I mean for us there's no point in doing anything. I mean you were asking questions about the budget. I mean we are not, I mean we're monitoring what's happening in D.C. but it's not like we're going to the halls of congress, like lobbying members of Congress right now. No, I mean at end along we are just working at a very hyper local level and recognizing that if we do our work right, that the people the kind of would be victims of today are going to be the civil rights leaders of tomorrow. And hopefully, you know, there will be a time we'll be able to come back with more collective strength and more collective buy in from the American public for immigrant.

[Emma Vigiland]

Rights. How can our audience help with your organizing network in terms of even long term building, but also in the short term rapid response with ICE terrorizing.

[Matt Bender]

Neighborhoods? Well, I'd say there are several ways. The first is just to go to our website and donate and know that we are providing high quality legal representation to people that otherwise wouldn't get it. You know, again, I will kind of, since hopefully not speaking too much out of class. There's an interesting thing happening in.

The kind of immigration bar right now where it's sort of the best of times and worst of times. There are incredibly heroic immigration attorneys that are doing.

Really creative legal work, habeas.

Actions and like. But there also are a lot of bottom feeder.

Immigration lawyers right now that are taking people's money and you know, in hopeless cases. And so, you know, and that's a little bit of a taboo to talk about. But so, you know, we are definitely providing and linking people with high quality legal services. You can donate there, you can join our Adopt a Corner initiative. We have all kinds of, you know, I don't know, daily and weekly zooms about how you can create a local committee, whether it's to just, you know, go to your local school and help people. People pick up students after school because a lot of parents are Afraid to pick up their kids after school, or whether it's going to a Home Depot or whether it's providing.

Information at work sites or chasing around ice, you can do that.

I think there are a number of ways, and we're trying to figure out ways to onboard people. So I guess give money, give your time if you can. And if you can give your creativity, that helps too. You know, I. In my own neighborhood, when the raid started, I just. The first. One of the first things I did, one of my heroes is Mike Davis. And he always says, you know, when in doubt, just go outside and start handing out flyers. And so I went all around Highland park and passed out signs to businesses saying, ICE is not welcome. You know, get a warrant before entering. And now if you go anywhere for coffee in Highland park, you'll see those signs everywhere. So you can just literally walk around your neighborhood and with signs that you print at Kinko's and give them to your coffee shop and say, hey, I'm a customer here. Can you please put up the sign saying, ICE is not welcome here. We're not going to serve coffee to ice. Get a warrant. So you don't necessarily even need 10, 20, 50 people to do a direct action. You can do something in an hour. We have flyers that you can download on our website for Home Depot. And if you're not in a position of privilege where you can boycott Home Depot, as many people are doing, if you have to go to Home Depot, you can go and pass out flyers on windshields of cars. It takes like 15 minutes. And you can fill the entire parking lot of a Home Depot with signs saying ICE out of Home Depot. And the manager will get the message. So I think the key is to just take some action, because to me, my biggest fear, Emma, is that there's a sort of thing that's happening where people aren't clicking on the links anymore because they don't want to get bummed out a little bit. Like, kind of, I think what happened with Gaza, like, it's like, yeah, it's terrible, but it, you know, there's nothing I can do about it. So therefore, I'm going to click on a link about Taylor Swift and not, you know, the latest news of the atrocity in Gaza. And that that results not just in the dehumanization of the people who are being handcuffed and harmed unnecessarily, that results in the dehumanization of all of us. It's like a piece of our humanity dies when we just decide, fuck it. Let's tune out. And the best solution to that is to take some small action, even if it's just sharing posts on a daily, putting it in people's face. Don't look away from this most recent story of a dreamer flying to Texas.

And being put into deportation because I think we're all clearly collectively implicated. I mean, our taxpayers are funding these human rights violations and the worst thing that could happen to us right now is that we become kind of desensitized or dehumanized ourselves into just a kind of complacency or sense of.

[Emma Vigiland]

Resignation. Hear, hear. Chris Newman, legal director for the National Day Laborer Organizing Network. We will put a link, link to everything that you spoke about down below in the episode and YouTube descriptions and @ Majority FM. Thanks so much for your time.

[Matt Bender]

Today, Chris. Thank you for everything you're doing and thank you for inviting me on. I really, really am grateful for.

[Emma Vigiland]

The opportunity. Oh, of course. Thank you for everything you were doing. Appreciate it. Thanks so much, Chris.

All right. With that, folks, we're going to wrap up the first hour, the free hour, ish hour and 15 ish change hour and change of this program and head into the fun half where we will read your IMs and we'll maybe take a few calls. We shall see how it goes. Lots and lots of news as always. As a reminder, this show relies on your support. If you go to jointhemajorityreport.com you can chip in a little bit. We can keep having interviews like this, highlighting things like, you know, direct action, organizing rapid response to ice, talking about the genocide in Gaza, speaking about issues that some shows and others won't touch. You keep us independent. You keep us, you keep us afloat. So join the majorityreforce.com Jesus.

So abrasive. Sounds like a, like a, hey, Branch, it's like a bird, just crimes right in my.

Like ducking for cover. Join the MajorityReport.com Brandon hello, hello, hello. How are you today and what's happening over on.

[Brandon]

The Discourse? I'm doing incredibly well today. I hope you are doing well as well after our week off. Off for last holiday.

[Matt Binder]

Last Thursday. Yes, the YouTube channel's.

[Brandon]

Going well. I saw my YouTube channel's going well. Sometimes not as, not as well. So I'm gonna be honest with you, not as well as I feel like it could be doing. But that's just my ego talking. But if you don't promote.

[Emma Vigiland]

It as much, you've just got that.

[Brandon]

Grindset if you'd like to be. I like to keep Humble. A lot of people say I'm the most humble host of a.

[Matt Bender]

Leftist show. And people say, like, I haven't seen anyone.

[Brandon]

Say humble. They're afraid. They're afraid of how humble I am.

But, yeah, you know, just today I posted a clip of my lovely live stream that I host every day, Monday through Friday. So not every day between 9 and 12pm Eastern. So, yeah, 9am to 12pm Eastern, about, like the inevitable pardon of. Of Ghislaine Maxwell, Donald Trump's best friend's girlfriend and co conspirator. Definitely go check that clip out if you need to refresh yourself regarding that case, especially as the new evidence.

[Emma Vigiland]

Comes out. All right, Check it out. Hey, Matt Bender, what's happening over on your side.

[Matt Bender]

Of things? I gotta say, I. I also feel like my YouTube channel isn't as big as it.

[Brandon]

Should be.

I'm shadow banned. I'm shadow. I'm.

[Emma Vigiland]

Shadow banned.

Tonight, folks. 8:30pm.

[Matt Bender]

Eastern Time. Tune in to YouTube.com mattbinder.

[Brandon]

To catch the newest episode of the.

[Matt Bender]

Leftist Mafia and subscribe to the channel.

[Brandon]

To help make it as big as it.

[Emma Vigiland]

Should be. All right? Right. Give Binder what.

[Chris Newman]

He.

[Emma Vigiland]

Deserves. Right. Success. I'm also humble, by.

[Brandon]

The way.

Not humble as.

[Emma Vigiland]

Me, though. Right. Well, we'll debate this in the.

[Matt Binder]

Fun half. Matt Leck, him.

[Emma Vigiland]

Measuring contest.

What's happening on Left Reckoning and then.

[Matt Binder]

With Jacobin. Yeah, Left Reckoning. This week I did a conversation with Devin Thomas o' Shea about the new Thomas Pynchon book Shadow Ticket, which follows a private eye in Milwaukee and the end of prohibition and the rise of Nazism as he investigates things like a international cheese syndicate and Nazis. So a really great book, really great conversation with Thomas Pinch or with not Thomas Pinch? I wish it was Thomas with Devin Thomas o'. Shea. And anybody who is of the literary mindset will want to check.

[Emma Vigiland]

That out. All right, we will see you in the.

[Chris Newman]

Fun half. Okay.

[Emma Vigiland]

Emma, please. Well, I just. I feel that my voice is sorely lacking on the.

[Chris Newman]

Majority report. Wait.

[Emma Vigiland]

Look, look. Sam.

[Chris Newman]

Is unpopular. I do deserve a vacation at Disney World, so. Ladies and gentlemen, it is my pleasure to welcome Emma to.

[Emma Vigiland]

The show. It.

[Matt Binder]

Is Thursday. I think you need to improve it.

[Emma Vigiland]

For Sam.

[Chris Newman]

Yes, please. I'm gonna pause you right there. Wait, what? You can't encourage Emma to live like this. And I'll tell you why. Someone's offered a tour. Sushi and poker with the boys. Twerk. Sushi and poker with the boys who was offered a tour? Yeah, sushi and poker with the boys. What tour? Sushi.

[Emma Vigiland]

And poker.

[Chris Newman]

Tim's upset. Twerk, sushi and bulker with two boys was offered with twerk Sushi and that's what we call biz. Twerk, sushi and poker with.

[Emma Vigiland]

Two.

[Chris Newman]

Boys. Right. Twerk, sushi.

[Emma Vigiland]

And poker. We're going to.

[Chris Newman]

Get demonetized. I just think that what you did to tin pool.

[Matt Bender]

Was me. Mean.

[Chris Newman]

Free speech. That's not what we're about here. Look at how sad he's become now. You shouldn't even talk about it. I think.

[Emma Vigiland]

You'Re responsible. I probably am in a certain way. But let's get to the.

[Chris Newman]

Meltdown here. Sushi and poker with the boys. Oh, my God. Wow. Sushi. I'm sorry. I'm losing my mind. Someone's offered. Yeah. Sushi and poker with the boys. Logic. Sushi and poker.

[Matt Bender]

With.

[Chris Newman]

Boys. Boys. I think I'm like a little kid. I think I'm like a little kid. I think I'm like.

[Emma Vigiland]

A.

[Chris Newman]

Kid. Twerk. I think I'm like a little kid. I think I'm like a little kid. Had this debate 7,000 times. A little kid. I think I'm like a little kid. A little kid. I'm losing my mind. Some people just don't understand. So I'm not trying to be a dick right now, but, like, I absolutely think the US should be providing me with a wife.

[Emma Vigiland]

And kids. That's not what we're talking.

[Chris Newman]

About here.

It's not a.

[Clay Risen]

Fun.

[Chris Newman]

Job. Twerk. That's a real thing. That's a real thing. Real thing. Willie Walker. That's a real thing. That's that real thing.

That's a real thing. That's a real thing. Real thing. That's a real thing. That's offered at work. Ladies and gentlemen, Joe Rogan has done it again. Offered a tour. That's a.

[Brandon]

Real thing. I think he might be blowing it out.

[Chris Newman]

Of proportion. Real thing. That's offered a tour. That's a real thing. That's poker. Let's go, Joe. Sushi.

[Matt Binder]

And poker. Take.

[Chris Newman]

It easy. Sushi and poker. Things have really gotten out of hand. Sushi and poker with the boys. Sushi. You don't have a clue as to what's going on.

[Emma Vigiland]

Live YouTube. Sam has, like, the weight of the world on his shoulders. Sam doesn't want to do this show anymore. Anymore. It was so much easier when the majority the of report was.

[Chris Newman]

Just you. Let's change the subject. Rangers and Nicks are doing.

[Clay Risen]

Great now.

[Emma Vigiland]

Shut up. Don't want people saying reckless things on.

[Chris Newman]

Your program. That's one of the most difficult parts about.

[Emma Vigiland]

This show. This is the Pro.

[Chris Newman]

Killing podcast. I'm thinking maybe it's time to bury.

[Emma Vigiland]

The hatchet. Left his best trump.

[Chris Newman]

Violet Twerk. Don't be foolish and don't tweet at me. And don't. The way Emma has cucked all of these people.

[Emma Vigiland]

Love it. That's where my heart is. This so I wrote my honors thesis.

[Chris Newman]

About it. Oh, she wrote an honest thesis.

I guess I should hand the main mic to you now. You are to the right of me on.

[Emma Vigiland]

Foreign policy. We already fund Israel, Dude. Are you.

[Chris Newman]

Against us? That's a tougher question I.

[Clay Risen]

Haven'T.

[Chris Newman]

Answered.

Incredible.

[Emma Vigiland]

Theme song.

[Clay Risen]

Hi.

[Sam Cedar]

Bumbler.

[Chris Newman]

Emma. Vin. Absolutely one of my favorite people, actually. Not just in the game, like, period.