3548 - Uprising Against AI Data Centers; Sudan Torn Apart w/ Miles Bryan, Dr. Khalid Medani

Summary

The Majority Report with Sam Seder

Episode 3548 – Uprising Against AI Data Centers; Sudan Torn Apart
Date: December 18, 2025
Host: Emma Vigeland (in for Sam Seder)
Guests: Miles Bryan (Vox), Dr. Khalid Madani (McGill University)

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Episode Overview

This episode delves into two urgent topics: the growing nationwide backlash against AI data centers—massive industrial sites eating up resources and raising local opposition—and the ongoing, catastrophic civil war in Sudan. Senior producer Miles Bryan explains how communities across the US are resisting the unchecked spread of these AI infrastructure hubs. Later, Sudanese scholar Dr. Khalid Madani offers a thorough, impassioned account of Sudan’s descent into violence, exploring the war’s roots, regional proxy interests, and the humanitarian disaster unfolding largely unnoticed by the world. Throughout, the Majority Report crew balances news, analysis, and signature irreverent banter.

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Section 1: US Politics, Venezuela, and the Trump Administration

Key Topics:

• Trump addresses the nation, blames Biden for the economy, and justifies foreign actions with blunt talk about oil
• Tensions with Venezuela escalate, with US military action and House war powers resolutions narrowly failing
• Broader GOP and right-wing policy developments: anti-trans bill, denaturalization orders, dark money in elections, etc.

Main Insights & Quotes:

• Trump is using direct, sometimes incoherent rhetoric: “No more narco terrorism, just we want the oil. That's what we're doing.” (Emma, 00:07)
• The House narrowly rejects attempts to restrain Trump’s Venezuela policy in a manner echoing past US interventions:

  “Yesterday, two separate resolutions in the House, war powers resolutions, attempting to kind of rein this in, failed. They failed very narrowly... And here is Representative Nadia Velasquez, who is retiring...” (Emma, 10:43)

Memorable Quotes:

• "The amount of incompetence might be the only thing that saves us." — Matt Binder (04:35)
• "He just declares it like when Michael Scott declared bankruptcy." — Emma Vigeland (05:55)
• "We want their oil reserves back. It doesn't matter about the sovereignty of the people of Venezuela or that Chevron..." — Emma Vigeland (09:16)

Notable Segment:

• [14:39]–[16:42] Rep. Nadia Velasquez’s floor speech comparing Venezuela justifications to Iraq War lies—a centerpiece of the anti-war critique.

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Section 2: Community Uprising Against AI Data Centers

Interview with Miles Bryan (Vox, Today Explained) — Starts at [27:50]

Key Discussion Points:

• Massive expansion of AI data centers across US, often into post-industrial spaces (ex: old steel mills in Conshohocken, PA).
• Local backlash transcends standard political lines—residents organize against perceived environmental, economic, and quality-of-life harms.
• Data centers’ impacts include rapid increase in local electricity prices, water usage, and on-site pollution (often via natural gas turbines).
• The economic “pitch” to towns: tax revenue, no added school burden—but real skepticism over community benefit.
• Growing bipartisan political focus: Data centers are now critical campaign issues in places like New Jersey and Virginia.
• Pushback resulting in delays and cancellations—over $100B in projects on hold/cancelled in Q2 2025.

Key Insights & Quotes:

• “You just accept the box, you get the box, and in return, you get a lot of tax revenue. So that's the pitch.” — Miles Bryan (28:39)
• “AI created as much carbon pollution this year as New York City and guzzled up as much H2O as people consume globally in water bottles…” — Emma Vigeland quoting analysis (31:05)
• “The opposition comes from a generalized, NIMBY sense... But it’s glowing, humming, and near your house; you’re not thinking, ‘great for my school district’—you just don’t want the box.” — Miles Bryan (31:50)
• “What’s it doing for you now? Okay, you can make erotica on ChatGPT or generate a video with a Disney character, but is it making your life better?” — Miles Bryan (33:36)

Political Dynamics:

• Data center issues don't follow simple partisan lines—a new populist divide is emerging.
  • “It’s a populist attack line, you know, across our two parties.” — Miles Bryan (36:43)
  • Noted that even on the left, Bernie Sanders just called for a moratorium.

Notable Moments:

• [34:50] Example of a Democrat winning a Trump district by running against data centers.
• [39:34] Use of “dirtiest energy sources possible” due to a regulatory race and voracious AI demand.

Advice to Listeners:

• "If you... just Google where you are, Google your community, look it up, try to find if there is, you know, a data center project in the works, and you can voice opposition to that." — Emma Vigeland (41:11)

Resources Mentioned:

• Data Center Watch—database for tracking projects and opposition.
• Today Explained (Miles Bryan’s reporting).

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Section 3: Deep Dive—Sudan’s Civil War & Its Global Context

Interview with Dr. Khalid Madani (McGill University) — Begins at [43:48]

A. Historical Background & Roots of the Conflict

Key Timeline:

• 1989: Establishment of the current authoritarian state via military coup backed by the Islamist movement.
• 2000s: Genocide in Darfur, creation of Janjaweed militias—later become the Rapid Support Forces (RSF).
• 2011: South Sudan secedes; Sudan loses most oil revenue, turning to gold exports.
• 2018-2019: Popular democratic revolution ousts autocratic regime.
• 2023: Civil war begins, sparked by rivalry between SAF (Sudan Armed Forces) and RSF.

Key Structural Factors:

• Longstanding “coup-proofing”: paramilitary militias created to suppress both regional insurgency and urban protest movements.
• Economic monopolies and resource competition—current conflict predicated on control over remaining gold, land, future resources.

Quote:

"This is essentially a war against civ[ilians]... a long way of trying to explain... why these two factions are basically butchering the population." — Dr. Madani (45:08) "I'm always asked, who's the good guy and who's the bad guy? This war is very different... both protagonists are at fault." (46:19)

B. Role of Regional and Global Powers (Proxy War Layer)

• UAE and Saudi Arabia: Early and ongoing support—funding, arming, and logistically backing different factions (UAE with RSF, both previously hired Sudanese mercenaries for Yemen).
• Egypt: Supports SAF to protect Nile water flow and ensure Sudanese stability as a buffer.
• US & EU: Have largely subcontracted Sudan policy to regional powers, forming a "quad." US influence in steep decline.
• China: Brokered rapprochements, increasingly involved in regional alignments.
• The “Resource Curse”: Profound regional competition for gold, ports (Red Sea), arable land.

  “Sudan is the third largest exporter of gold in Africa, the 12th largest in the world.” (59:36)

Quote:

“The US essentially subcontracts its policy with respect to Sudan and the Horn of Africa to the real powers in the region... Saudi Arabia and the United Arab Emirates.” — Dr. Madani (58:48)

C. The War Today: Violence, Narratives, Humanitarian Disaster

• Both SAF and RSF commit mass atrocities, civilian slaughter, displacement, sexual violence—no “good side.”
• Both wield public relations campaigns claiming to be defenders of the people or revolution; in reality, both are “outgrowths from the same rotten foundation.” — Emma (70:14)
• Recent Yale satellite analysis confirms mass graves, body disposal, systematic destruction to conceal war crimes, sieges causing famine reminiscent of Gaza.

Quote:

“If you itemize everything that you in your show have followed in Gaza, it is the same infrastructural destruction, the same displacement, the same induced famine is what we’re seeing [in Sudan].” — Dr. Madani (74:30)

• Human displacement:
  • “Displacement within the country is 12 million. About a million in Ethiopia, 2 million that fled to Egypt, a million and a half in South Sudan.” (82:41)
  • "At least... what we know, it's an underestimation, 300,000 dead in Darfur alone." (82:41)

D. Larger Lessons: Neocolonialism and the Disillusionment with Democracy

• Western and regional powers perpetuate crisis by excluding Sudanese civil society from negotiations, supporting autocracy for resource access.

• "We are still drawing borders on the continent of Africa based on colonial ambitions less than 15 years ago." — Emma Vigeland (78:34)

• Dr. Madani on democracy:

  "When I see coverage that disparages the possibility of democracy in Africa, I find that really racialized and problematic." (79:01)

E. Recommended Resources

• Dr. Madani’s recent primer: "Militants and the Authoritarian Legacies and the Political Economy of War in Sudan" (American Political Science Association).
• Democracy Now! interview (shorter version).
• Dr. Madani's website.

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Notable Moments & Quotes

• On US Media & Policy:

  "The opposition party, they've been unable to show this contradiction [in foreign policy] in any real meaningful way." — Emma Vigeland (16:42)

• On AI Data Centers:

  "It's a populist attack line, you know, across our two parties." — Miles Bryan (36:43)

• On Sudan:

  "No family or individual in Sudan has not been victimized by the Rapid Support Forces. All of us lost our homes... imagine overnight losing your home and the militias come in and basically take over everything." — Dr. Madani (72:47)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 00:07 — Opening headlines, Venezuela segment
• 14:39 — Rep. Nadia Velasquez anti-war speech
• 27:50 — Miles Bryan interview: AI data center backlash starts
• 33:36 — Impact on electricity rates, quality of life
• 34:50 — Political campaigns using data centers as an issue
• 39:34 — Environmental impacts and energy sourcing
• 43:48 — Dr. Khalid Madani interview: Sudan conflict deep dive
• 45:08 — Sudan’s historical context
• 51:05 — Foreign power involvement in Sudan
• 66:33 — How Sudan’s civil war reignited in 2023
• 72:47 — Atrocities and mass displacement in Sudan today
• 82:41 — Death tolls, regional displacement
• 86:19 — Further reading, resources, episode wrap

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Summary Tone & Style

Throughout, the Majority Report maintains its critical, independent voice—mixing sharp policy analysis, on-the-ground reporting, irreverent conversation, and leftist perspectives on global events. The hosts and guests are direct, often critical, sometimes humorous, and unafraid to call out contradictions in both US and international policy.

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For Listeners Who Missed the Episode:

This episode offers a clear, detailed look at two rapidly evolving stories with national and global stakes. If you care about how new technologies reshape American communities—or want to understand the complex, tragic, and geopolitically entwined war tearing apart Sudan—this episode delivers both urgent summaries and the broader context that mainstream coverage often misses.

Transcript

[Emma Vigeland]

It is Thursday, December 18, 2025. My name is Emma Vigeland in for Sam Cedar and this is the five time award winning Majority Report. We are broadcasting live steps from the industrially ravaged Gowanus Canal in the heartland of America, downtown Brooklyn, usa. On the program today, Miles Bryan, senior producer at Vox and reporter for Today Explain, will be with us to talk about the growing revolt against AI data centers. And later in the show, Dr. Khalid Madani will be with us to help understand the brutal conflict in Sudan. Also on the program, Trump addressed the nation last night with a galvanizing speech, speech about how the faltering economy is not his fault. Like literally opened this speech with that blaming Biden. Thankfully it wasn't him declaring war against Venezuela, which is what many people thought that address was going to be about. Maduro instructs his navy to escort ships carrying oil, defying Trump's disposal demands for essentially piracy. Speaking of the oil, Trump's just saying it now. No more narco terrorism, just we want the oil. That's what we're doing. The House narrowly rejects two war powers resolutions attempting to curb Trump's aggression towards Venezuela. Just 48 hours before the DOJ is mandated to release the Epstein files. FBI Deputy Director Dan Bongino says, I quit. Can he. He can't even get back into podcasting now. Oh, he will, but, but he will and, but he can't say anything real. Yeah, so just, it'll be just like he did before.

[Matt Binder]

He also, he has the stupidest audience in the entire world.

[Emma Vigeland]

I know, but it's just like he's basically an asset now because everything he says, any real stuff, is classified. The White House tells federal immigration offices to start denaturalizing people, despite the Supreme Court birthright citizenship case still being ongoing. DHS Fast tracked a $1 billion contract to a Trump mega donor who is offering free private plane flights to deport migrants. And HHS cancels millions of dollars in grants to the American Academy of Pediatrics studying infant deaths, identifying autism and more because they criticized RFK Jr. S vaccine policies. Marjorie Taylor Greene's anti trans bill, which would charge healthcare providers with felonies for providing gender affirming care to minors, passes in the House. This is your right wing populist, by the way. A new analysis of the 2024 election finds that $900 million in dark money was spent on both the Trump and Harris campaigns. Biden, Harris, the US approves $11 billion in weapons sales to Taiwan. And lastly, Kathy Hochul signs a right to die bill that allows terminally ill New Yorkers to end their lives. All this and more on today's Majority Report. Hello, everybody. It's an M. Majority Report Thursday. Hello to Matt, hello to Brian, hello to our lovely audience, who I like to suck up to on my days. Just, just building a popular resistance to Sam. That's what we're doing with the coup. Speaking of coups, that's actually a transition that could work there. That's what the United States is trying to do in Venezuela.

[Matt Binder]

Can I read a quote from the New York Times, which I don't normally do? Mr. Trump's announcement of a blockade cut senior officials at the Pentagon and at Southern Command in Florida by surprise. On Wednesday, they scrambled to figure out the US Military's role in the action. US Officials said.

[Emma Vigeland]

I mean, the amount of incompetence might be the only thing that saves us.

[Matt Binder]

There was, at the height of Watergate, there was like, a worry that Nixon would call on, like, a squadron or something like that to help hold power. But these sort of, like, erratic and to be honest, Nixon did walk around and, like, talk with people, like, drunk and talking to people at the Lincoln Memorial. So, like, he was pretty. This isn't entirely unprecedented. It does. It is that, though. It's the same thing as, like, Nixon wandering around drunk, arguing about football with hippies.

[Dr. Khalid Madani]

Yeah.

[Emma Vigeland]

Well, we had an I am or ask is, is the Trump presidency more Nixonian or is it more like a Reagan presidency? It has the economics of Reagan and the celebrity power of it and madman. But the illegality of Nixon and the vindictiveness and the pettiness. But so last night, as I mentioned, Trump addressed the country and there was a lot of speculation in the lead up to this address that this is gonna be him declaring war on Venezuela, which, by the way, he does not have the power to do. Congress has the power to declare war.

[Matt Binder]

What if I say they're terrorists and it's weapons of mass destruction?

[Emma Vigeland]

Well, maybe he just declares it like when Michael Scott declared bankruptcy. In all seriousness, though, though, no, that's supposed to be Congress's purview. But last night he ended up just, like, ranting and raving in this address, blaming Biden for the economy within the first 60 seconds. He's talking about how the Democrats want to give transgender to everybody, saying that Biden released people from insane asylums over and over and over again. It looked very weak and desperate because we see the numbers that are coming out about his approval rating, which is in the toilet, and especially on issues like the economy and health care, the kind of kitchen table stuff that could really, really sink the Republican Party coming up in the midterms.

[Matt Binder]

I would just remind people when he says that I'm impotent about Biden's failing economy still, after all these months, that Biden's economy was actually kind of roaring by, you know, capitalist standards.

[Emma Vigeland]

Right.

[Matt Binder]

When Trump took office. And then he got in and his inaugural address said this.

[Emma Vigeland]

You got it.

[Sam Cedar]

There'll be a little disturbance, but we're okay with that. It won't be much.

[Emma Vigeland]

Won't be much.

[Matt Binder]

And also the farmers are going to have a fun time. And both those things turned out to be, well, I mean, understatements or lies.

[Emma Vigeland]

He also touted tariffs repeatedly in that speech, which, you know, he can't. He can't back off of his policies, no matter how disastrous. It's anathema to him. But like, part of also what he was elected on was this notion that he was more anti war than the Democrats. And the Democrats have no one but themselves to blame for that. Biden overseeing a genocide, Kamala Harris refusing to distance herself from that, just left the lane open for the easiest possible argument just by default, for Trump to make that case. See, when I was in power, this wasn't happening. When they're in power, you have Ukraine, you have this. And so it just, it was by default.

[Matt Binder]

People mentioned Nixon. Nixon won in a similar way, saying, lbj has this Vietnam War going on. I have a secret plan to end it.

[Emma Vigeland]

And you'll notice that many of the officials in the administration and the Republican lawmakers that go on television will consistently say that these attacks on these boats, these more than, I think, two dozen at this point, bombing instances of bombing boats in the Caribbean and the eastern Pacific that have killed at least 99 people by this point. They will say that these were drug runners, that these were narco terrorists. And you'll hear that from them in the press. The thing is, is that you're not hearing that from Donald Trump that much. You know, what you're hearing from him? Kind of the truth.

[Sam Cedar]

Getting land, oil rights. Whatever we had, they took it away because we had a president that maybe wasn't watching. But they're not going to do that. We want it back. They took our oil rights. We had a lot of oil there, as you know. They threw our companies out. And we want it back.

[Emma Vigeland]

We want it back. Oh, so not. It's.

[Sam Cedar]

Then he shuffles away like he doesn't.

[Miles Bryan]

Even know where he's going.

[Emma Vigeland]

Yeah, I mean, he may not like. So he came out the other day and said that fentanyl, which is not traffic through Venezuela, is a weapon of mass destruction. Because he's using the Iraq war era rhetoric to justify his now kind of his Monroe, his new Monroe Doctrine. I mean, there was a speech that Pete Hegseth had the other day where he said that the Monroe Doctrine had never gone away and that we're reasserting it. The idea that the United States has colonial dominion over the Western hemisphere, which, you know, was an 1800s policy that was meant to curb European colonialism in the region and assert US Dominance there. This is what the United States under Trump is saying is they're basically their foreign policy. And we don't know fully the extent of Venezuela's oil reserves, but we know that it's some of the largest in the world. And what he's talking about getting, you know, kicked out of Venezuela. We want their, their oil reserves back. It doesn't matter about the sovereignty of the people of Venezuela or that Chevron.

[Matt Binder]

Is operating with an agreement that sort of. We're not going to acknowledge.

[Emma Vigeland]

They don't acknowledge, but they want it all. That's the point is there?

[Matt Binder]

What they want is to actually kick out China.

[Emma Vigeland]

Exactly. That's, that's it. Right. And so I mean there were some estimates that China I think is response or I wrote this down here. Yeah. Chinese buyers account for around 80% of Venezuela's oil sales, which to Matt's point, much of our foreign policy at this point, despite being offensive and yes, genocidal, is defensive in attempting to curb China's growing influence, given their power, their efficiency, their self sufficiency and using brute force and military might to do so, whether that be in the Middle east or whether that be in Venezuela. And now Trump is supposedly being really tough on China. It's not like he's saying, hey, China, don't purchase from Venezuela and using the United States as leverage there with which would be like probably the smarter thing to do if he was actually interested in doing that. No, dumbass bully. Bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb. Makes me feel tough. Department of War baby. It's childish and immensely dangerous. And so since this is by Chavez when he came to power in the late 90s, it's been an obsession of neocons to this point. We've tried coups, we've tried saying our western aligned guy or lady in this instance is the true president of Venezuela. We've tried sanctions, we've participated in like covert ops, covert ops attempting to assassinate their leaders and now Trump is just basically like, no, we'll do it with the military. And it's really concerning that. Yesterday, two separate resolutions in the House, war powers resolutions, attempting to kind of rein this in, failed. They failed very narrowly. You had a few Republicans defecting. Jim McGovern had one pertaining to Venezuela, where you had three Republicans join it. Marjorie Taylor Greene, Thomas Massie, and then Bacon. Yeah. Which, you know, I guess you could expect. And then there was another one introduced by Gregory Meeks that also failed. But here is Representative Nadia Velasquez, who is retiring. She's a Democrat that's in her early 70s that's retiring and allowing her safe blue district to potentially go to someone in dsa. Love her for that. Long time, longtime progressive who's in her career in the House, also been very vocal about trying to curb the authorizations for the uses of military force that I've been harping on over and over again because it's providing this is the basis that the Trump administration is trying to use to wage this illegal and offensive war, using the authorizations for the military force that the two that passed, one after 911 in 2001, the other in 2002 used to justify that illegal invasion of Iraq, basically giving the executive branch all this broad authority to, to wage, to use wartime actions without the approval of Congress, but pertaining to 911 pertaining to Iraq. That's why it's so important to call out the language that they're using here about narco terrorists and fentanyl being a weapon of mass destruction, because they're trying to fit their insane policy into this, like, broad legal justification. And I don't think they should be able to do that. Anyone with two brain cells to rub together should understand that. But that's the pretext that they're attempting to deploy. So here is Representative Velazquez speaking about what needs to be done here.

[Representative Nadia Velasquez]

I rise today in support of this power World Powers Resolution. 23 years ago, I stood on this same floor as Congress debated an authorization for the use of military force in Iraq. The Bush administration relied on bad intelligence and outright lies to march America into a disastrous foreign intervention that cost trillions of dollars, took thousands of American lives, and helped destabilize the region for a generation. Today, I fear we are watching history repeat itself Once again. A far right administration is using the same playbook. The justification this administration has provided to Congress and the American people is a joke. If this was about drugs, why seize an oil tanker and threaten an illegal naval blockade? If this was about drugs, why would the president pardon a drug trafficking former president of Honduras?

[Emma Vigeland]

Yeah, we can keep going a little bit. Yeah.

[Representative Nadia Velasquez]

This is not about drugs. This is about regime change and control of Venezuela's resources. Nicolas Maduro is a dictator and you don't have to defend him to recognize a simple truth. Venezuela does not pose the. An imminent threat and a war will do nothing to make America safer.

[Emma Vigeland]

Boom. All right. Really appreciated her bringing that context and the fact that, you know, she's been in Congress for, for many decades and saw Iraq and stood in opposition to it. I just want to remind people of how Trump was talking about Iraq in 2016, just to give people a sense of like 10 years ago where we were. How he'll lie and use any way to attack his political opposition in a manner that is populist, but like, or he crowd surfs like that is part of what his political talent is. And it is on the opposition party that they've been unable to, to show this contradiction in any real meaningful way. This is how he talked to Jeb Bush in 2016, or I guess 2015. But in the 2016 race in the.

[Sam Cedar]

Primary, obviously the war in Iraq was a big fat mistake. All right, now you can take it any way you want. And it took, it took Jeb Bush, if you remember, at the beginning of his announcement, when he announced for president. Took him five days. He went back. It was a mistake. It wasn't a mistake. Took him five days before his people told him what to say. And he ultimately said it was a mistake. The war in Iraq, we spent $2 trillion, thousands of lives. We don't even have it. Iran is taking over Iraq with the.

[Emma Vigeland]

We don't even have it. Well, there's the mask slips. Yeah. There's the consistency. There's the consistency. But people get, the people get the point.

[Matt Binder]

Just a quick point, when they say war for oil, it's not to make gas prices lower. It's so American capitalists like Exxon profit from that natural resource being deplet and not a state like China, same as Iraq and the same as Venezuela, 100%.

[Emma Vigeland]

I mean, the Biden administration, if it was about keeping oil prices down, like the Biden administration, just, just purely on a fact based level, like kind of broke the back of, of, of OPEC during his administration and really built up US Oil reserves now like disastrous for the climate. But neo, the neocons and the, and the capitalists and the Republicans should like that. That's an example of doing what Trump is saying he wants to do effectively. But that's, that's not great.

[Matt Binder]

Power conflict.

[Emma Vigeland]

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[Matt Binder]

Compact, just wrote a piece about.

[Emma Vigeland]

But especially around holiday time. I like, I like the reds. I like the reds in the winter and Naked Wines has given me some, some great options. I'm really looking forward to my next batch. And how do they do it? Naked brings you amazing wines straight from the winery at up to 60% less than what you would pay in store. By cutting out extra costs like middleman markups, winemakers can pass those savings on to you without skimping on quality. We have talked about middlemen and how much they are inflating the prices of everything in our lives. Naked Wines does not have that problem. Naked Wines has been around for over 15 years and backs over 90 independent winemakers around the world to make the wine that you love to drink. Now is the time to join the Naked Wines community. Head to nakedwines.com Majority Click Enter Voucher and put in my code Majority for both the code and password. For $100 off your first order, that's 6 bottles for only $39.99 with shipping included, that's $100 off your first 6 bottles. @nakedwines.com Majority and use the code and password Majority for 6 bottles of wine for $39.99. Link down below in the episode and video descriptions and at Majority FM again, that's to get six bottles of wine for $39.99. Head to nakedwines.com majority and use code Majority for both the code and password. Quick break. When we come back, we'll be joined by Myles Br.

[Sam Cedar]

It.

[Emma Vigeland]

We are back and we are joined now by Miles Bryan, senior producer and reporter for Today Explained Vox's daily newspaper podcast. Brian. I mean Brian. Miles. We Have Brian over there. Miles, all the time. Miles, thanks so much for coming on the show today.

[Miles Bryan]

Thank you for having me.

[Emma Vigeland]

Of course. Let's. Let's talk about this kind of backlash to these billions of dollars of AI data center projects that are happening around the country, seemingly kind of unabated until fairly recently. Your piece opens, speaking a little bit about a Pennsylvania kind of community coming together and trying to push back against these data centers. Tell us a little bit about that story in particular.

[Miles Bryan]

Yeah, so as you said, there's billions, hundreds of billions of data centers in the works or planned for the United States. So it's not very hard to find an example of where one of these is coming. It's also not hard to find an example of where people are mad about it. But I looked at a proposed data center project in suburban Philly, a town called Conshohock, and I live in Philly, so it was convenient for me to get to and cover. But the reason it really stood out to me is that the plan for this data center was to be in an old steel mill. It was a steel mill that had been operating since the 1830s north of Philly. It really like, you know, represented in kind of a literary sense and in an actual sense the old industrial economy that powered these places, that created middle class jobs, that help build these communities, yada, yada, yada. And the steel mill had been limping along since the 70s and ended up actually closing only last summer. So it's pretty recent. And it's this huge, you know, industrial building on the side of the river. And when a developer went to the town council wanting to replace it with the data center, it felt very like listening to him talk at the meeting, it felt very like, oh, this is just sort of the story of America's economic transition. We are losing the steel mills, we're getting the data centers. You know. Yeah. And like, I do want to actually, like, start with like. It is a good pitch if you're a council member of like, you know, normal town, usa. Like, this guy's like, hey, we're going to put in this data center. It is going to pay tens of millions of dollars in taxes. You know what it's not going to do? It's not going to put any kids in the school district. It's not going to put more cars on the road, it's not going to require water and sewer hookup. It's kind of like a money machine. You know, you just accept the box, you get the box, and in return, you get A lot of tax revenue. So that's the pitch. It's interesting to me because it's being made all over the country to all sorts of communities. But the pushback in this community was really intense. Like, all sorts of people rallied against it. You know, I interviewed a couple of them, just these, these young women who had never been political organizers who got super into this, learned all about data centers and all these things that concern them. And, you know, that data center project's now on hold, but it just sort of keyed me into this whole world of data center pushback, which is not something that's sort of like tracking neatly on political lines, but it's happening everywhere.

[Emma Vigeland]

Yeah, I mean, so tell us a little bit about the nature of that pushback. There was an article this morning in the Verge. You see these analyses that come out that it seems like every day about just the amount of pollution this is causing. The opening paragraph in this article is, AI created as much carbon pollution this year as New York City and guzzled up as much as H2O as people consume globally in water bottle bottles, according to new estimates. Just to give people a sense of how much this has scaled up. Is that incredible stuff? Is that where. Yeah, right. Incredible. Not in the positive sense. Like, is that the center of a lot of the pushback that you reported on?

[Miles Bryan]

Yeah, I would say I noticed two things. One, maybe the biggest one is electricity bills, right? Like, if you live in the Northeast, you're part of it, probably part of the PJM regional electric grid. There's been tons of data centers that have come online here, especially in Northern Virginia in the last five or six years, and they've been driving up cost of electricity because they gobble up a huge amount of electricity. The pollution thing is interesting because a lot of data center projects now are including basically many power plants. Like this one wanted to have its own natural gas power power plant system that would help reduce its. Help reduce what it's pulling from the grid, but would mean that you have like a natural gas burning plant right next to your house if you live next to it. So that's not appealing. And then, you know, I think, like, one thing I want to be fair about is like, I do think a lot of this opposition comes from a generalized, like, NIMBY sense. That probably would be true for other uses too, right? Like you have a house and it's like near a lot, and they're going to put this like, giant glowing, humming data center near you. You're probably not thinking like, oh, this is going to be great for my school district over the next decade. You're like, I just don't want the box. And that's, you know, that's a bipartisan force in American politics.

[Emma Vigeland]

Yeah, absolutely. And it connects, I think, and perhaps in a way that that's the silver lining. The economics of daily life with the environment. I mean, that's in many ways what Alexandria Ocasio, Cortez and others were so prescient about with the Green New Deal. And like, how we can make that connection, I think, politically is by emphasizing this issue in particular.

[Miles Bryan]

Yeah. And it also, like, I know this comes up on the show, but it's hard to say exactly what the benefits of all of this AI infrastructure building are going to be to normal people or that's what I picked up in my reporting. Talking to people, they might have some abstract sense that it's supposed to sort of save the world, but, like, what's it doing for you now? You know, like, okay, like you can, you can make erotica on ChatGPT or generate like a video with a Disney character, but is it making your life better in a tangible way?

[Emma Vigeland]

Yeah.

[Miles Bryan]

And, you know, like what, what is tangible? In that case, it's the big glowing box in your neighborhood. So.

[Emma Vigeland]

Right. And the electricity bills that you're talking about. You wrote about how in New Jersey, this was really important in the governor's race. And you saw, I think you saw Cheryl influenced by Zoron in many ways, like influenced by the affordability argument. You said, she said in her victory speech, I'm going to declare a state of emergency about affordability. And electricity was a part of that. Right. I mean, talk a little bit about how her campaign embraced this, and it seems like it's a roadmap across the country for Democrats.

[Miles Bryan]

Super interesting. So, yeah, Mikey Sherrill, who I also covered for the show, she was really smart politically and she got ahead of this, this brewing issue, this kind of populist issue in New Jersey, which is their rates have gone up a lot of. And you know, some of that's attributable to data centers, some of it to other things. It's not always super easy to draw the one to one connection just to be fair. But yeah, she sort of made that a centerpiece of her campaign, trying to make sure that people's rates don't continue to go up. And you know, for my reporting, I talked to a couple of people who actually ran on data centers as having a negative impact on their voters, quality of life and on Their electric bills. I talked to one guy who ran for a state senate or a state representative seat in Virginia in near data center alley, where there's just a ton of these. And he was a Democrat and he won a seat that had been a Trump 2024 seat. He flipped it 100% by running on data center opposition. And like, you know, he told me, like, I don't think I would have won without bringing this up in all of my conversations. Like, this is the thing that comes up over and over again. And I just think, I think this is so interesting because, you know, it just doesn't really map out onto our left right politics.

[Dr. Khalid Madani]

And it doesn't seem to come up.

[Miles Bryan]

With, like, the very big players that often. Like, you know, here in Pennsylvania, Josh Shapiro, a lot of signs are pointing towards him running for President in 28. He loves data centers. You know, he's super pro data centers. Same with The Republicans here, McCormick. Same with, you know, obviously President Trump. Very into data centers. I saw Bernie Sanders proposed a moratorium on them. I think today. It's in the last day or two, so maybe that's like the first inkling.

[Emma Vigeland]

Well, Miles, I'm gonna push back on you slightly. Like, there's a huge difference between Josh Shapiro and a guy like Bernie. Like, it's people that are basically a little bit more corporately captured.

[Miles Bryan]

Right?

[Emma Vigeland]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Miles Bryan]

I don't disagree with you. I mean, like, comma, you know, Bernie Sanders is like that. Maybe we're seeing it now. But then, you know, you have this guy James Fishback down in Florida, sort of running a far right campaign to beat Byron Reynolds to take the governor's office to replace Ron DeSantis. He put out his launch video. You know, big part, a big plank of it was, I'm against data centers, or I'll be against data centers if they're, you know, taking too much of our water or electricity. Like it's a populist attack line, you know, across our two parties.

[Emma Vigeland]

Absolutely. You know, I, that. Is that the guy that said the train that wants the train, the guy who was invoked Mussolini.

[Miles Bryan]

Yeah, a little bit of. Yeah, well, yeah. Something that could be drawn from that video.

[Emma Vigeland]

Yes, yes. It feels implied, but like the, the, the power usage here. Can you talk a little bit about why, you know, you see how really people's electricity usage has flatlined residentially, but the commercial use is. And I think, you know, industrial would be the other category, or I'm not exactly sure, but it's clearly being driven by companies Corporations, these data centers that are driving up prices and like, our grid just doesn't have the capacity. There are companies, I think, that are working on greener technology for this technology and how you can electrify the grid in a way that's, that's not using fossil fuels and coal and stuff like that. But because there's this, this race to build these AI data centers to get ahead of regulation, it seems like, and the political backlash that you're talking about, they're using the dirtiest energy sources possible.

[Miles Bryan]

Yeah, I mean, I'm seeing a lot of natural gas independent hookups for data centers where they can say, hey, we're not pulling from the grid, but we are, you know, burning gas in Pennsylvania. I think Microsoft is looking to reopen Three Mile island, the, the nuclear power station that closed in the, that closed actually just recently and had that disaster in the 1970s to try to generate nuclear power. But I think you're right, Emma. Like, you're pointing to the fact that there's just this huge race in demand for all this, like, compute. And this idea that, like, you know, if we don't have a million servers humming a million more than China, they're going to beat us to some, you know, the endpoint of this sort of competition and we can't really generate enough electricity fast enough to meet that demand. So in the interim, like normal people will suffer because they can't afford as much. Like the electricity is sold to the highest bidder.

[Emma Vigeland]

And China. Yeah, spoiler alert. Is going to beat us on this anyway and probably already has the like. You cited this analysis from Data Center Watch in your piece where they looked at projects across the country and found that in the second quarter of this year, 20 data center projects worth almost $100 billion were either canceled or delayed. And so that's kind of speaking to the broader backlash that, you know, it's not just centered in a few communities, it's growing. What, what, what did you find in looking at that analysis?

[Miles Bryan]

I mean, it really just puts numbers to something that became clear to me when I was poking around. I think anyone, I think you could just Google data center pushback, like wherever you are in the country and you're just going to get like a flood of local, you know, county or regional level stories about stuff that's happening that, that maybe you hadn't even noticed. Like, I'm here in Pennsylvania, I searched it and it's in the Philly region, but also in like deep red western pa sort of Trump country outside of Pittsburgh. I go to my wife's parents house in near Ann Arbor, Michigan, and I look and there's like, you know, 10 of these just anywhere. You know, I think over the last couple months, there's so many data centers under construction across the United States, and increasingly almost any of those projects are starting to get, you know, anxious residents pushing back for a bunch of reasons. And I think most of the time they're not successful, but increasingly they are.

[Emma Vigeland]

Yeah. So lesson for everybody, if you, you know, just Google, Google where you are, Google your community, look it up, try to find if there is, you know, a data center, that project in the works, and you can voice opposition to that. Would you recommend that site, Data Center Watch that you cited? I feel like that could be a good resource for people.

[Miles Bryan]

Well, okay, so this is interesting. Data Center Watch is a research project that's frequently cited, including by me, as like a pretty comprehensive list of pushbacks on data center construction. It's not a nonprofit or anything. I saw some other news outlets get dinged for accidentally thinking it was like a advocacy group. It is a research project of an AI company that I think 10A labs. You know, I talked to the guy who did the research. He said they're independent, but it's. It's numbers, I believe, published, you know, as a service for people in the industry seeking to get data centers built or at least who tend to support data center construction. So, you know, that's. That's definitely a place to look, but I think it's a number of other groups, and I should be clear, I'm a reporter. I don't have. I'm not going to sort of offer an opinion on whether to support data centers or not. I'm just.

[Emma Vigeland]

No, that's me. I'll do that. Yeah. Miles, Bryan, thank you so much for coming on the show today. Really appreciate your time. Where can people find your work?

[Miles Bryan]

Thank you so much for having me. Please listen to Today Explained. We're a daily new show. We're very rigorous, but we're also, like, fun and not stiff. You'll hear me there.

[Emma Vigeland]

Awesome. Thanks so much for your time today. Really appreciate it.

[Dr. Khalid Madani]

Thank you.

[Emma Vigeland]

All right, quick break, and when we come back, we'll be joined by Dr. Khalid Madani, Sudanese scholar, associate professor of Political science and Islamic studies and director of the Institute of Islamic Studies at McGill University, here to talk about Sudan.

[Sam Cedar]

Sam.

[Emma Vigeland]

We are back. And we are joined now by Dr. Khalid Madani, a Sudanese scholar and associate professor of political science and Islamic Studies and director of the Institute of Islamic Studies at McGill University. Dr. Madani, thanks so much for coming on the show today.

[Dr. Khalid Madani]

It's my pleasure. Thank you for having me.

[Emma Vigeland]

Of course. I saw you were on Democracy now this morning. Gosh, they're bookers. They know what they're doing. And.

[Dr. Khalid Madani]

And I'm wearing the same jacket too, so I apologize.

[Emma Vigeland]

Well, I'm. I'm irrationally angry at them for scooping you first, but they're doing great work over there. Now, obviously, what we're about to talk about is horrifying. I want to back up for a bit because we've. We've seen these updates in Sudan, the Yale analysis of satellite imagery showing thousands and thousands of bodies basically being disposed of. But before we get to that more current update, can we go. Let's go back to the beginning you know, of, or maybe not the beginning, but people will talk about. Spring of 2023 is when the civil war formally started. But in reading some of your writing, it might be more helpful for us to back up to, say, 2011, 2018, etc.

[Dr. Khalid Madani]

Sure. I mean, I usually quickly begin with 1989. And the reason for that is that's really when the authoritarian state was established in Sudan following a military coup that overthrow a democratically elected government. That period between 1989 and 2018 was very formative. It was the period where the autocratic state was built. And there were a couple of very important things that are related to the war that I always like to highlight. Number one, there was a complete purging and dismissal of hundreds of thousands of people from the public service and bureaucracy. And they were replaced by Islamist stalwarts, members of the very powerful Islamist movement in Sudan. The Islamist movement in Sudan is the only movement in the Middle east region, in any Sunni Muslim majority country that took over power. And that's something that is a dubious distinction in the Arab and Middle east region. So that's really important to highlight that through the course of These decades, over 30 decades of rule, you had not only the dismissal of the bureaucracy, but also the complete monopoly of the domestic economy. That was the second pillar and the third pillar directly related to the war. That I think people should know is that it was also a period of what we call coup proofing, that is establishing paramilitary militias that would do two things very importantly. One of them was to put down the insurgency in Dad 4 in the early 2000s that many people in the United States and elsewhere know. That genocide of the early 2000s, that was extremely important. So they used the Janjaweed militia At the time as proxy to enact Earth Scorch policies. That was the beginning of the ethnic cleansing in that for over 200,000 civilians dead, over 2 million displaced, that becomes important. But another element that was key with respect to the paramilitary militia, the Janjaweed, that was later transformed and mutated into the rapid support forces that is the second most important protagonist in this war, the militias right now that are wreaking havoc and devastation in Darfur, was to also use them to put down the dissent of civil society, particularly pro democracy movement. So they had two very important kind of functions. One is to put down the insurgency in that that led to that genocide in early 2000. And another, very importantly, is that they were used to stamp down public protest intifadas that, you know, are very, very important and became very important following the uprisings in Tunisia and Egypt that changed the entire political landscape of the Middle east and North Africa region. I mentioned that as a kind of prelude to saying that this is essentially the war that began in April of 2023, is essentially a war against civ. It's a kind of a long way of trying to explain to your listeners and viewers why these two factions are basically butchering the population, the civilian, innocent population. And the reason they're both doing that is both of them are interested in making sure that the very important democratic revolution that began in 2018 that toppled the military regime would not restart. And so both of them have one thing in common, and that is that they fear any kind of potential of a popular uprising among Sudanese civilians. And that becomes a really important aspect of this war. Why is that important is because I'm always asked, and we are asked, who's the good guy and who's the bad guy? This war is very different from other conflicts in the sense that both protagonists are at fault. Both protagonists are enacting a huge kind of devastation against the civilian population. So you referenced the Yale Research Laboratory, which is phenomenal and has documented this devastation, ethnic cleansing, displacement and savagery in Darfur, and particularly now in North Darfur. But they also had a very important report that came out in October where they documented in detail what the Sudan Armed Forces has done between October 2024 and January 2025. And that is in that the same kind of ethnic targeting of innocent civilians in the central part of the country when they retook it from the rapid support. Long story short, in summary, both of them have a vested interest in maintaining their political and economic fortunes that they built over 30 years because they were partners against the Sudanese people for all this time. But both of them are also really perpetuating wide range of mass killings, displacement, sexual violence, all of the litany of human rights violations that the Yale Laboratory has documented through their satellite imagery. But also so many human rights organizations, AMNES International, Human Rights Watch. So I hope I didn't go on too long, but I just wanted to set up the context for, for, for why the war is so savage against the civilians.

[Emma Vigeland]

It's quite helpful. And in, you know, when you're asked who's the good guys and who are the bad guys, perhaps it's more useful to say who is aligned with whom. You know, I, you have the United Arab Emirates being a major player here in its backing of the rapid support forces. But maybe even if we could go back to 1989 and how that Islamic insurgency came to be and what role foreign powers played in that potentially, because I see this described as a proxy war now, but I wonder how long the proxy goes back.

[Dr. Khalid Madani]

Yeah, it's a really very important. Sudan came to prominence in the region and globally in the 1990s again. And it became. The reason I mentioned it was the first and only Islamist movement to actually capture state power is that it became throughout the mid-1990s, the hub of Islamist movements. Every Islamist movement, you know, from the Egyptian one, Tunisian one, the Hamas, all of them really kind of centered their work and operations because they were clandestine organizations in Khartoum in Sudan. They were invited because following the coup, the Islamist coup, which was very, very important. So that becomes important. As you may know, famously Osama Bin Laden, of course, was hosted in Sudan during that period. And that of course led to the imposition of over two decades of sanctions on the part of the United States against Sudan and the European Union also. So you had a very strong Islamist movement that begins very early on really in the 1940s, but captured state power. Why? Essentially because they did something that no Islamist movement in the Arab region was able to do, although they tried, that is by the mid-19 or early 1980s, they infiltrated the armed forces. It really is the only Arab speaking country where the Islamist movement successfully recruited mid ranking military officers and then plotted through a variety of different ways, as.

[Emma Vigeland]

Opposed to, sorry, just to draw that distinction for people being an outside group, militia. This is an integration into the formal Sudanese military.

[Dr. Khalid Madani]

Absolutely, absolutely, yeah. And if you add to that, then the creation of the Janjaweed by the state, the military regime of Omar Bashir at the time did two things. One of them, of course, was to incorporate The Islamist movement as the most important constituency, not only in the army, but the wide range of security services. But they also established these militias, the Janjaweed. And then in 2013, they're the ones the central government Bashir regime actually also financed and established the Rapid Support Forces promoting Mohammed Hamdan de Galo. So it's this kind of partnership that ended in divorce, in a violent divorce later on in 2017, the military regime in Sudan actually legalized constitutionally the Rapid Support Forces as part and parcel of the army. So one thing that people don't always perhaps understand is that it's basically a Frankenstein monster created by the Sudan Armed Forces that now has led to this rivalry, which is really important. We can speak about why that rivalry came about and why that violent divorce emerged.

[Emma Vigeland]

Please do. But I just want to make sure that I'm fully understanding. So the formal Sudanese armed forces integrated the rsf, the Rapid Support Forces, which are backed by the UAE that I just mentioned, into the formal military structure. And now they empowered them. And these are the two factions that are waging this brutal war against civilians at this current moment.

[Dr. Khalid Madani]

Absolutely. And let me talk about the UAE just one second. The UAE comes in much earlier than now. It comes in at the invitation essentially of the former regime as early as 2014. And I think your listeners and viewers may want to be interested to know that both the Sudan Armed Forces and the militia, the Rapid Support Forces, cooperated with the UAE at the time and Saudi Arabia to send mercenaries to Yemen to fight alongside the United Arab Emirates and Saudi Arabia. And so while the UAE absolutely supports then there's clear evidence the Rapid Support Forces, not only logistically but through really the importation of smuggled gold worth 2 billion a year in the gold mines controlled by the Rapid Support Forces. Their history really in Sudan dates much earlier. They also played a very formative role. And I think it's very important to emphasize both Saudi Arabia and UAE and Egypt working against the pro democracy revolution and supporting the military coup of October 2021 that overthrew this very fragile democratic experiment in Sudan. So they're very much a opposed to a democratic transition in Sudan because it threatens the neighboring countries. And also they are very interested in having a so called reliable proxy in Sudan. Each one now of course has different proxy in order to safeguard their strateg and financial interest and investments. And finally, I think it's really important to emphasize to everyone that what we're seeing in Sudan now is similar to Yemen, a huge competition between Saudi Arabia and UAE over the Red Sea region. And that is the larger regional story. And the people in the midst of that story are the innocent civilians in Yemen, but of course, in Sudan as well.

[Emma Vigeland]

So you're saying a competition between the UAE and Saudi Arabia over that control?

[Dr. Khalid Madani]

Absolutely.

[Emma Vigeland]

Okay. Can you expand on that? Because, you know, Iran is, I would say, the power that was more emphasized, in my view, in the Yemen. I mean, the forced famine, the horrific blockade, I mean. Well, I guess that's distinct. We're talking 2015. That's probably maybe where I'm tripping myself up here. Talk about a little bit about Iran and their role then as well.

[Dr. Khalid Madani]

Sure. Well, Iran has, you know, since basically the failure of Saudi Arabia in particular to really win the war in Yemen, as you probably know, there's been a rapprochement with respect to Saudi Arabia and Iran that's really important to keep in mind.

[Emma Vigeland]

Partially brokered by China.

[Dr. Khalid Madani]

Absolutely.

[Emma Vigeland]

Right. Which is very threatening to the United States or should be.

[Dr. Khalid Madani]

Absolutely. Yeah. But since Saudi Arabia increasingly does not see the United States as powerless enough or in necessarily a viable partner, so to speak, in the region, they've tried very hard to have this independent policy with respect to Iran. And that has to do. You know, people forget that the Houthis are in North Yemen, they're on the border of Saudi Arabia right now. There is this impending conflict between the proxies of Saudi Arabia and those of the UAE in Yemen that just happened yesterday. I really would encourage people to look at how important that is. So Iran has had this kind of rapprochement. What is less known and untalked about is the kind of conflict or competition between the United Arab Emirates and Saudi Arabia. On the one side, the Saudi Arabian vision is to have stability and unity of these countries, Sudan and Yemen, because of the Red Sea interest. And they have Crown Prince Ben Salman, as you know, I think people really underestimate his investment in the Red Sea area worth trillions of dollars, that this kind of Saudi Arabian Vision 2030 that is so important to him, that's why he went to Trump and asked him to solve the Sudan problem as, as one important example. On the other hand, the UAE has a very different vision for them. It is to support proxies, to have control over the ports and resources. And that for them does not require stability and unity of these countries, but rather supporting financially and logistically, whether it's the Southern Transitional Council in Yemen, now in the eastern part of western part provinces of Yemen and across the Red Sea coast of Yemen, or of course, the rapid Support forces bordering Libya in that force. I hope that's not too complicated. But it's really important to understand that a lot of what's happening in what we call these regional hegemons have emerged in a way that has kind of marked the decline of US Influence necessarily. I always say that the US Essentially subcontracts its policy with respect to Sudan and the Horn of Africa to the real powers in the region, direct powers, Saudi Arabia and the United Arab Emirates.

[Emma Vigeland]

Well, I mean, is that in part due to the fact that the oil reserves are not necessarily as deep as initially thought? I mean, I know that there was the secession of South Sudan, where much of the oil was located, and that was a big part of the economic uprising and fury from the population. If I'm not mistaken, or if you could clarify that for me, that would be great.

[Dr. Khalid Madani]

Sure. You know, the regime in Sudan basically got gravely weakened in 2011 because they lost their most important source of revenue. At that time, over 70% of the revenue was coming from the production and export of oil. That was basically funneled into two ways, into the military and security establishment. And frankly, also as a form of, how do you put it? Carrots doled out to different populations or constituency in Sudan. Once South Sudan seceded in 2011, basically all of that oil and its revenue evaporated. And at that point, the financial kind of basis of the state in Sudan, the autocratic state, essentially fell apart. It gave way to this grand revolution or very important revolution, although it was really. Activists had been working on that kind of popular uprising for decades. But certainly the weakness of because of the loss of oil opened up this possibility of a popular uprising that overthrew the regime. Following that, beginning in 2012, another commodity comes into play that becomes central to the conflict, and that is gold. Sudan is the third largest exporter of gold in Africa, the 12th largest in the world. If you look at gold prices because of global economic insecurity, you can quickly understand why there is this kind of convergence over extraction of gold and why that is so important. So really, this is a war about maintaining power, but between the two warring factions. If you look very closely, even at what's happening in dat 4, where there's gold and uranium and oil deposits, or you look to different parts of the country, you will find that it is essentially, and has been for decades, a war around resources in one of Africa's and the Middle east, really richest country. And that's what we call the resource curse as well. So it's very important to highlight both the domestic factors associated with the conflict, but the proxies and what their interest in Sudan is. It's not only in strategic interest in the Red Sea region, but also people should not underestimate the importance of these resources for the United Arab Emirates and Saudi Arabia. Both countries are really engaged in what we call, of course, energy transition, that is less dependence on oil. And both countries are really looking to the longer term future where it won't be oil, but other forms of resources, including agricultural resources that become essential to their sustainability.

[Emma Vigeland]

I mean, then you can see how they're trying to spread their influence into things like entertainment and sports here in the United States. That's a very, very obvious attempt to. To wean themselves off of just being a petro state in that way. Can you talk a little bit about Egypt and their role in this? I mean, or. Because they border Sudan, I believe. And then we also, of course, have the genocide ongoing in Gaza. Egypt borders the Gaza Strip. Like the proximity is something I'd love for you to flesh out here, because as you say, it's maybe not direct US involvement in the same way that we would in other conflicts in the Middle east, but obviously the interests of our proxies are important here as well.

[Dr. Khalid Madani]

Absolutely. There are three very important actors. Saudi Arabia, the uae, obviously the United States. They have formed a quad. We can discuss that in terms. I'm sure Trump has been speaking about it and so has his in law, Mousat Aboulas. But Egypt is historically the most important for a number of reasons. One of them, of course, it shares the border with Sudan, and any kind of democratic push and success of a transition to a civilian democracy is directly threatening to the regime in Sisi. We can't forget, of course, the kind of popular revolution of 2011 in Egypt. That's number one. So from the Egyptian perspective, supporting or having a reliable partner is really key. And that partner has always been, historically, the military. In Sudan, that is something that's very important. But why also is Sudan so important to Egypt? And for people interested in history, the Nile waters run through Sudan, Egypt and Ethiopia. And of course, over the past decade, the Ethiopian government has established something that is existentially threatening to Egypt, and that is the Renaissance Dam, which Egypt believes will cut off its lifeblood, its water. And so the rivalry historically and even currently between Egypt and Ethiopia makes Sudan even more important to Egypt and their alliance with the military important because they need that partnership, that alliance, in order to really compete, or rather, you know, kind of contest this Renaissance dam that.

[Emma Vigeland]

Ethiopia has built quick interjection. Does that increase Egypt's perhaps reliance on the United States and Israel or incentivizing it to having a closer relationship with that because Ethiopia's dominance in the Red Sea is increasing?

[Dr. Khalid Madani]

Well, it definitely makes. It incentivizes them to have a closer relationship with the United States. The closer relationship with Israel is a complicated one because there are domestic issues that people underestimate. Of course, no country in the region is all powerful. But to normalize relationship, let's say with Israel, that, for example, Bahrain and the UAE have done is not. It's too overly politically risky on the part of Egypt, although there has been great pressure recently, very recently to push that along. So there are domestic concerns because of the border, of course, with Gaza. And the one thing Egypt doesn't want to do is to get into that hot water. But certainly there's a friendlier relationship between Israel and Ethiopia, which I think is very, very important to high.

[Emma Vigeland]

Right. I'm looking at a map here and my, my spatial reasoning is not my strong suit. I did not even realize the size of Sudan's basically, you know, shoreline with the Red Sea. It gives, I think a lot of people, it gives a lot of context about why this is so strategically important in that, in that way. I guess let's turn then to more, more recent events. Maybe we can go then to, to 2023, how this horrific violence began and where we are today.

[Dr. Khalid Madani]

Sure, the war began because of the consistent stubbornness on the part of pro democracy activists. I'm not saying this kind of to be to romanticize the popular uprising, but just to be very clear, what happened is that there was a competition between both the Sudan armed forces and the rapid Support Forces. That kind of alliance and partnership over two decades, political, military and economic, fell apart because the Sudanese civil society continued to protest, to insist on a transition to civilian rule. In the context of that, the international community, the African Union, the United States and even the Arab countries oversaw something called the Framework Agreement, essentially talking about to renew a transition to civilian democracy. There were two contentious issues in that agreement. One of them was to merge the militia into the Sudan Armed Forces Security sector reform. That of course directly threatened the rapid support forces that over two decades had built a huge financial empire. You can see them using that money to devastate that for the entire country with the aid, of course, of the UAE in part. But the other issue that is less discussed is that the Sudanese kind of democracy activists and civilian politicians had insisted on dismantling the financial assets that were amassed by the former regime. It was something that has never been attempted in the region, in Africa or the Arab world, and that is to dismantle the financial assets of what was a deep state. So that then threatened the Sudan armed forces. Taken together, that becomes a really important point of contention between the two. And finally, very importantly, the transition to civilian democracy threatened, and this is extremely crucial, the stalwarts of the former Islamist regime organized around the party called the National Congress Party. It is now, without a doubt, the first spark of the war was actually instigated by members of the National Congress Party. These are hardcore hardline Islamist officials and members of the Islamist movement in Sudan that saw in a transition to civilian democracy that necessitated their exclusion, that they saw it as an. An existential threat. And they sparked this conflict between the militia and their own militia linked to the Sudan Armed forces in April of 2023 that quickly escalated into this huge war, first in the capital of Khartoum that became destroyed. And then it really kind of caught on like wildfire. And so right now, those who insist on the continuation of the war are essentially forming former Islamist members of the former regime that were literally brought out of jail after they were imprisoned during the. After the revolution. And so here we find ourselves in a military stalemate in terms of the military situation, but we also find intransigence on the part of the Sudan armed forces with respect to actually implementing or even entering negotiations that potentially are brokered by the United States and the other regional powers.

[Emma Vigeland]

And can you talk a little bit about how the RSF is presenting itself to the public? I believe I remember reading that they have this kind of PR push to be like, we're the anti Islamist.

[Sam Cedar]

Group.

[Emma Vigeland]

But obviously, as we're talking about here, there's no good protagonists. These are all kind of outgrowths from the same rotten foundation.

[Dr. Khalid Madani]

Yeah, well put, Emma. Thank you for putting it that way. The Sudan Armed Forces legitimation, you know, kind of public relations campaign is that this is a war for dignity and a war to really preserve the dignity of the Sudanese people against an illegal militia that they actually created and legitimated on the part of the rapid support forces. Their campaign is a very simple one. It is literally the appropriation of the goals of the revolution. They are literally in the context of displacing and killing and enacting all this violence. Believe it or not, what they are saying is that they are secularist, they are pro democracy, pro women's rights, that they're all about diversity. And so they're Essentially taking the script, all of the demands, all of the slogans of the popular pro democracy revolution, incorporating it, establishing this parallel government. And now they're working as hard as they can to establish institutions of law and order in order to not only maintain their economic wealth, but also to tell the Sudanese and the international community that, look, we have a stable governance structure in Darfur or in part in territories they control. So both of them are using the social media, public relations, and of course, Sudanese are caught in the middle of those. But even though you may hear conflicting reports from Sudanese recently, Sudanese political parties, civil society organizations in Nairobi were very clear in condemning both parties arguing for a truce, humanitarian access, a return to a civilian democracy, and supporting a political solution rather than the continuation of this.

[Emma Vigeland]

War for people to bring it back to where we started. As we wrap here, this group that is presenting themselves as for women's rights pro democracy, what has been very, very, very credibly accused of mass atrocities and war crimes and was a part of. And you can talk a little bit about what the Yale laboratory found with the satellite imagery. Mass, mass graves, burning of bodies, destruction of bodies to cover up their crimes. This was a pretty enormous report that had come out just a few days.

[Dr. Khalid Madani]

Well, there's no family or individual in Sudan that has not been victimized by the rapid support forces. Let me just give you the big picture. So all of us lost our homes, right? So I think you're from New Jersey or New York. Imagine overnight losing your home and the militias come in and basically take over everything and begin enacting sexual violence. That's why people fled in their millions within a month. Month. One of the largest capitals in Africa and in the Arab world, you have basically evacuated to the point of it being a ghost city. And that had to do with the level of violence the rapid support forces enacted in the urban areas. From there, of course, we begin with DAT4. In DAT4, where many of them of course operate prior to Al Fashir and the reports from Yale, from the Yale laboratory, you had the ethnic targeting of the mass elite with 60,000 people killed in one day in central controlled dat 4. You then go to Al Fashir. It's not only these pictures that are showing the displacement and also the reportage. By the way, the Yale laboratory is providing such a great service because no one is able to report in dat 4 the civil society activists, human rights activists, journalists, lawyers, everyone has been executed, detained or displaced. And this is why we have to rely on these images. But prior to that, that fashion Northern Darfur was under siege for 18 months. And I don't think people really understand what a siege is. A siege is that you basically not only can you not leave the area, you also don't have access to food or any kind of resources.

[Emma Vigeland]

So it's what Israel did to Gaza. What Israel did to Gaza, Yeah.

[Dr. Khalid Madani]

If you itemize everything that you in your show have followed in Gaza, it is the same infrastructural destruction, the same displacement, the same induced famine is what we're seeing. And so it's not just to today or yesterday. It has been going on for two and a half years now. And I just really want people to understand that. I also want people to understand in the central regions how ethnic targeted killings have. The Yale Laboratory has also demonstrated that in the breadbasket of Sudan, in the central part, finally, we have now the fighting in the border areas between Sudan and South Sudan that is promising to expand the war to South Sudan itself. And I think it's really important to emphasize that in addition to the instability of the Red Sea, which is the reason that I'm going to be frank, why the United States and the Quad have come together, these are countries that have realized that the war has reached such a peak, has expanded so much that it is literally undermining their economic and strategic interests. And that's why Ben Salman asked Trump, so called, to fix this problem.

[Emma Vigeland]

So they've reached this level of bloodshed that now it's hurting their pocketbooks. Can you speak a little bit more about South Sudan? I'll wrap with you shortly. But that secession effort, I mean, what were the outside players involved here? And why is the war expanding to South Sudan? Sudan, an escalation.

[Brandon Sutton]

What?

[Dr. Khalid Madani]

South Sudan as it separated, the people that were really involved were the United States, Norway and the European Union. What was called the Troika. I was in Washington at the Brookings Institution, so I followed it and I was part of that. And the issue here was, very simply put, that it ended up being an agreement for secession, a divorce, so to speak, that was brokered by the troika, the us, Norway, the eu, without any input from civil society in South Sudan or Sudan. Essentially, it was broken by two authoritarian regimes and leaders, one in Sudan and one in South Sudan. Why is that important is that the government in South Sudan is not only illegitimate, it has used the majority of its oil. 90% of the revenue in South Sudan comes from the oil to finance its military and devastate the local population in south sudden Sudan. So I really want to emphasize how these two things are linked. Why is that important? Is that right now in the quad, one of the things that are crucially problematic, Emma, is that we're talking about countries being brought together in absence of any Sudanese input at all. No civil society organizations are involved in these so called talks, no political parties that are civilian. Basically, if it continues on this path, it's essentially reaffirming and legitimizing the two warring factions that have devastated the entire country. And that is exactly what happened when South Sudan seceded, even though many of us were warning that you have to include civil society, as was done in Rwanda, Liberia, Sierra Leone, in order to have a sustainable transition to peace. So these conflicts are very related. They're the worst and longest standing conflicts in Africa. And so in addition to the Red Sea, which people deeply care about because it affects 13% of trade and Egypt has lost 50% of its trade because of the Houthi attacks, because that began with Gaza. That part is a really important part of this war. Absolutely. But another part is South Sudan that no one seems to be interested in covering, despite the real kind of disparaging remarks the Trump administration makes about South Sudanese continually, including denying them any kind of access to come to the United States. So if you look at these two conflicts, you'll understand the predicament of the war in sync.

[Emma Vigeland]

I mean, and it's just so informative and important to emphasize that we're still drawing borders on the continent of Africa based on colonial ambitions less than 15 years ago. I mean, and it, like, we cannot speak about these things as past or as in ink. I mean, it is continuously changing and important to emphasize, obviously.

[Dr. Khalid Madani]

Absolutely. In every case you find that there are these outside powers that are excluding, and this is the same in Yemen as well. They're excluding the local populations and the legitimate population that can actually kind of implement a ceasefire, monitor a ceasefire and ensure a transition to a civilian democracy. So there are two things. One of them is this new colonial, of course, persistent policy where outsiders decide the fate of local populations, which I think think is extremely important to highlight. But also I think that there is a real disillusionment with respect to the very possibility of a civilian democracy in these so called poor countries. I mean, the disillusionment with democracy globally has, and international institutions and human rights institutions and the UN has impacted these wars, including Sudan, where there is kind of no serious discussion about conflict resolution of human rights, implementation of actually pushing towards democracy, even though the majority of African countries are actually believed or not governed by democratic institutions. And so when I see coverage that disparages the possibility of democracy in Africa, I find that really racialized and problematic. So thank you for the show.

[Emma Vigeland]

I mean, and you're preaching to the choir in the sense it's the same way that in the west, speaking about the Middle, the East, it's just that like these are savages that cannot understand our liberal democratic values. When you basically see that the Western democracies are actively over and over again undermining democratic institutions, self actualization for people across a variety of different countries in the Middle East. And then of course in Africa, like, it's just, it's the opposite of what the Western governments say. They want more autocrats because it's much easier to control resources if you have autocratic leaders than having to deal with like, oh, the messy democracy of people wanting a say in how their resources are extracted.

[Dr. Khalid Madani]

Yes. I mean, there's always the discussion of Sudan and normalization with Israel because of course, you know that we're also Arab and we work in the region and study the region. And the issue here is that that normalization was going to be basically force fed to the Sudanese population in the context of a military regime. No one has any in terms of these huge kind of agreements. And then people in Gaza of course become, you know, they don't have the time to do the research. Obviously they become astonished and despondent because they're like, why are these people in Sudan supporting something like this? Well, the fact is that they're not. The people who are being supported are these military autocrats and they're being supported to perpetuate and implement these outside agendas. And so, you know, the more people talk about this and the more I know you've covered so many different countries and also people who actually are legitimate voices, that becomes important. It's difficult in the case of Sudan because the coverage is less, but hopefully that will increase.

[Emma Vigeland]

I'm trying to do that with this interview. Of course, I think Gaza takes such an outsize, not outsize, it's very important, but because of our direct intervention that sometimes the more indirect, incorrect proxy ones get, it's harder for people to understand. So really, just lastly, I know I've kept you for quite a while, but I wanted to make sure our audience understood the aspects of this horrific conflict. What are the death tolls? Do we know? How can we know what is your best estimate? And then even displacement figures as well.

[Dr. Khalid Madani]

Well, the death toll in dat4 has reached over at least what we know. It's an under estimation 300,000. The displacement is about half a million into Chad. That becomes a really big problem. The displacement within the country is 12 million. There are about a million in Ethiopia, 2 million that fled to Egypt, and a million and a half in South Sudan. So basically the country has been devastated. In addition to that, approximately. Basically two thirds of the population is facing food insecurity, one third famine that becomes important to people to understand. A siege basically is one where people don't have access to food, so they're eating branches wherever they can. Humanitarian aid is very minimal, even not only because of the war, but also because of the lack of interest in financing, which is really important. Al Fashir saw the displacement about 70,000 into the northern camps. And within that fashion itself, we don't know, but the estimation probably is 150,000 killed. In addition to that, the horrors, I think people will understand, of mass killings. People that when you hear that people are put into graves. If you look at the report of the Yale laboratory, some of them are put into those mass graves alive. And in addition to the sexual violence and abuse that is rampant. And there's a logic to this violence. I don't want to go into it and do this academic thing, but the level of violence really has to do with resistance. The way that insurgent organizations and militia work is that you enact a very high level of violence, and that's why it's shown on social media by the rapid support forces in order to engineer violent and coercive consent. In other words, telling people, if you don't join us, you will basically suffer these consequences. There's no other way to put it where survival becomes the only commodity you have. And that is a logical explanation for this kind of devastation beyond ethnic targeting and the racial discourse. But I want people to understand that there's a brutal logic to this level of violence, and that's why it is so severe and difficult to describe.

[Emma Vigeland]

Well, Dr. Khalid Madani, Sudanese scholar, associate professor of political science and Islamic Studies and director of the Institute of Islamic Studies at McGill University. Dr. Madani, where can people read more of your work? And despite my joking, people should really check out your appearance this morning on Democracy now if they want to learn even more.

[Dr. Khalid Madani]

Yeah, that Democracy now, it's characteristically short, but yours is longer. I have a website called Khalid Meredith.com and people can go into that. I post interviews and articles there, and the most recent one is called Militants and the Authoritarian Legacies and the Political Economy of War in Sudan. It's Published by the American Political Science association newsletter. And you can just Google me. And it gives you a rundown on specifically the economic aspects of the war and the economic underpinnings of the war and why the war began, based on both the economic interest of the warring factions, but also the external interest as well. It's a primer. I kind of wrote it for people who are not too familiar with the war. And of course, I will recommend people watch your show, as I do all the time.

[Emma Vigeland]

Well, it's very sweet. We will put a link to that in the video description, podcast description, and@ Majority FM. Dr. Madani, thank you so much for your time today. I really appreciate it.

[Dr. Khalid Madani]

Thank you so much. Thank you, Matt and the rest of the crew. Much appreciated. Okay, thank you so much.

[Emma Vigeland]

Much. You know, we're way too late for best of, but that would have been.

[Dr. Khalid Madani]

One that I literally dropped it into best of 2026 doc that I started yesterday.

[Emma Vigeland]

Yeah. I mean, this is, yeah, the kind of interview that makes me remember why I like doing my job.

[Matt Binder]

It's been a long year, folks.

[Emma Vigeland]

It's been a long year. Matt, you had a great interview this week with one Graham Platner. What's happening over in the Jackman show and at Left Reckoning.

[Matt Binder]

Yeah, I realized I haven't uploaded it to the podcast feed yet, but everyone can go check out on YouTube or the Twitch VOD. Talk with Graham Plattner. 45 minutes about. I mean, few questions, like, why don't you. Why did you say you're not a socialist? Graham's not comfortable calling himself any more than economic populist, which, as far as, like, Senate categories go, fine with me. And also his mercenary stuff and also some of the other stuff that I like about him, like standing up for Somali migrants up there and rain on Medicare for all, not just in the primary, but saying he's definitely going to run about it, run it in the general, and that's kind of the reason he's running. So I checked that out. It was great talking with Graham yesterday.

[Emma Vigeland]

And we have Brandon Sutton. Hello, Brandon.

[Miles Bryan]

Hello.

[Matt Binder]

Hello. Hello.

[Brandon Sutton]

I was just watching your introduction interview.

[Emma Vigeland]

It was not, unfortunately, cops or ICE agents with DUIs, which I know would have been.

[Brandon Sutton]

We do other things.

[Emma Vigeland]

Yeah, we can. We can cover some other important topics. What's happening on the Discourse?

[Brandon Sutton]

Well, I mean, what we've been doing, some of what you just described, cops getting DUIs. But we just today covered Dan Bongino's, I guess, shameful exit from the FBI. Well, his tenure there was shameful in general. But his exit from the FBI, we.

[Matt Binder]

Covered tenure at the FBI kind of like right, like kind of.

[Brandon Sutton]

He quiet quit like in July. Yeah, he, he, after the, after the COVID up his job was done and so he quiet quit the FBI in July. Then he kind of popped up like two weeks ago to take credit for the Jan6 bomber being caught and then he retired to go back to being like a rumble billionaire or whatever. Whatever he was doing before.

[Matt Binder]

It's so funny because they jumped all over their Jan6 bomber being caught thing by accusing the wrong person based on like a gait analysis which is like how people walk and then like they find the guy next but nobody, they can't really even use it. I really followed the story, but it's just funny. Like the first thing it was Glenn Beck saying we have confirmation based on like how people walk but. Matt Binder.

[Emma Vigeland]

Matt Binder. Well, check out the discourse folks. And Matt Binder, what's happening with, with you?

[Dr. Khalid Madani]

No, nothing to promote today, but I would like to give a shout out to a longtime listener of this show, my dad Binder.

[Miles Bryan]

Dad.

[Dr. Khalid Madani]

He's been having a, a rough month health wise.

[Emma Vigeland]

Oh my God.

[Dr. Khalid Madani]

And so just keep him in your thoughts. And he's watching the show right now, I'm sure. So if you want to say hello to him in the the chat. Yes, feel free.

[Emma Vigeland]

Yeah, I am mers.

[Brandon Sutton]

Hello, Matt Stag.

[Emma Vigeland]

Yes, shout out. Matt St. Dad. Thinking of you.

[Matt Binder]

Yeah, definitely. Long time. Been in the chat for a long time.

[Emma Vigeland]

Yep. Well, if you want to support this program, you can become a [e-mail] it's not going to get to you in time for Christmas, but you can still enjoy some merch. The max left beanies are on the site. You can get the safety whistles as well if you're thinking about protecting your community from ice and more. We've got merch shop. Majorityreportradio.com all right, we will probably not take calls today because I went so long on that interview but needed to do so. So we'll read your IMs and we'll play some clips and we'll have some fun. See you in the fun half.

[Sam Cedar]

Okay.

[Miles Bryan]

Emma, please.

[Emma Vigeland]

Well, I just, I feel that my voice is sorely lacking on the majority report.

[Sam Cedar]

Wait, whoa. Look, Sam is unpopular. I do deserve a vacation at Disney World. So. Ladies and gentlemen, it is my pleasure.

[Dr. Khalid Madani]

To welcome Emma to the show.

[Emma Vigeland]

It is Thursday.

[Dr. Khalid Madani]

I think you need to take over.

[Matt Binder]

For sale.

[Sam Cedar]

Yes, please, sir. I'm gonna, I'M gonna pause you right there. Wait, what? You can't encourage Emma to live like this. Emma.

[Dr. Khalid Madani]

I'll tell you why.

[Sam Cedar]

Who was offered a tour? Sushi and poker with the boys. Tour, sushi and poker with boys. Who was offered with tour? Yeah. Sushi and poker with boys.

[Emma Vigeland]

What?

[Sam Cedar]

Tour, sushi and poker.

[Emma Vigeland]

Had Tim's upset.

[Sam Cedar]

Tour, sushi and bulker with food. Boys. It's offered with twerk. Sushi and. That's what we call biz. Twerk, sushi and pulker with din Bo. Right. Sushi and.

[Emma Vigeland]

We're going to get demonetized.

[Sam Cedar]

I just think that what you did to Tim Pool was mean.

[Emma Vigeland]

Free speech.

[Sam Cedar]

That's not what we're about here. Look at how sad he's become now. You shouldn't even talk about him. I think you're responsible.

[Emma Vigeland]

I probably am in a certain way. But let's get to the meltdown here.

[Sam Cedar]

Sushi and poker with the boys. Oh, my God.

[Representative Nadia Velasquez]

Wow.

[Sam Cedar]

Sushi. I'm sorry. I'm losing my mind. Sushi was offered Tour. Sushi and poker with boy Logic. Tour. Sushi and poker with tour. I think I'm like a little kid. Think I'm like a little kid. Think I'm like a kid. I think I'm like a little kid. Think I'm like a little kid. Had this debate 7,000 times.

[Dr. Khalid Madani]

A little kid.

[Sam Cedar]

Think I'm like a little kid. A little kid. Think I'm like a dick. I'm losing my mind.

[Matt Binder]

Some people just don't understand.

[Sam Cedar]

So I'm not trying to be a dick right now, but, like, I absolutely think the US should be providing on me with a wife and kids.

[Emma Vigeland]

That's not what we're talking about here.

[Dr. Khalid Madani]

Is not a fun job.

[Sam Cedar]

Tour. That's a real thing. That's a real thing. Real thing. Willy Walker. That's a real thing. That's real thing. That's a real thing. That's a real thing. That's a real thing. That's got a real thing. Ladies and gentlemen, Joe Rogan has done it again. Offer torque. That's a real thing.

[Brandon Sutton]

I think he might be blowing it out of proportion.

[Sam Cedar]

Real thing. That's poker with the boy. Offer the twerk. That's a real thing. That's poker. Let's go, Joey. Sushi and poker. Take it easy. Sushi and poker. Things have really gotten out of hand. Sushi and poker with the boys. Sushi. You don't have a clue as to what's going on live.

[Emma Vigeland]

Sam has, like, the weight of the world.

[Sam Cedar]

On his shoulders.

[Emma Vigeland]

Want to do this show anymore.

[Sam Cedar]

Anymore?

[Emma Vigeland]

It was so much easier when the majority report was just you.

[Sam Cedar]

Let's change the subject.

[Dr. Khalid Madani]

Rangers and Knicks are doing great now.

[Matt Binder]

Shut up.

[Emma Vigeland]

Don't want people saying reckless things on your program.

[Sam Cedar]

That's one of the most difficult parts about this show.

[Emma Vigeland]

This is the pro killing podcast.

[Sam Cedar]

I'm thinking maybe it's time to bury the hatchet.

[Emma Vigeland]

Left is where best trump Violet twerk.

[Sam Cedar]

Don't be foolish and don't tweet at me. And don't the way Emma has cucked all of these people. Love it.

[Emma Vigeland]

That's where my heart is. So I wrote my honors thesis about it.

[Sam Cedar]

She wrote an honest thesis. I guess I should hand the main.

[Miles Bryan]

Mic to you now.

[Sam Cedar]

You are to the right of the unform policy.

[Emma Vigeland]

We already fund Israel.

[Miles Bryan]

Dude.

[Emma Vigeland]

Are you against us?

[Sam Cedar]

That's a tougher question I have an answer to. Incredible theme song.

[Emma Vigeland]

Hi bumbler Emma.

[Sam Cedar]

Vin. Absolutely one of my favorite people actually. Not just in the game like period.