3556 - Empire Abroad, Fascism at Home, Trump's America w/ Jeet Heer

Summary

Podcast Summary - The Majority Report with Sam Seder

Episode 3556: “Empire Abroad, Fascism at Home, Trump's America” featuring Jeet Heer
Date: January 9, 2026

---

Overview

This episode examines the tumultuous start of 2026 under the Trump administration, focusing on the intersection of U.S. imperialism abroad and the rise of authoritarianism and state violence at home. Host Sam Seder and guest Jeet Heer (The Nation) analyze recent escalations: U.S. intervention in Venezuela’s leadership, paramilitary ICE crackdowns in major U.S. cities, and the mainstream media’s role in normalizing the new status quo. The hosts scrutinize Democratic leadership's passivity and the growing disconnect with their base, while also exploring some bright spots in progressive local governance.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. U.S. Foreign Policy: The Venezuelan “Coup”

• Trump’s Naked Imperialism ([28:10], [30:14])
  • Trump orchestrates a leadership change in Venezuela—without regime change, openly citing oil interests.
  • Quote (Jeet Heer, [30:44]):
    “Trump... will just say things out loud that normally would not be said out loud.”
  • Trump’s maxim: “We should have taken the oil” (Iraq, now Venezuela) moves from subtext to the official rationale.
  • Polls show Republican support for wars to seize resources has increased—Trump’s rhetoric leads base opinion.
• Privatization and Spectacle ([37:57], [38:27])
  • The spoils of Venezuela go not to the American people but to oil executives, hedge funds, and Trump cronies.
  • The move echoes “Iran-Contra in the open”—U.S. bypasses national interests for private profiteering.
• Imperial Retreat and Realignment ([40:21], [45:51])
  • U.S. appears to be ceding European, Asian spheres to Russia/China in exchange for dominance in Latin America.
  • Jeet Heer warns that history shows dividing the globe into imperial spheres breeds eventual conflict.
  • The urgent need for international cooperation (climate, pandemics) is being replaced by “fortress” mentalities.
  • Quote (Jeet Heer, [41:04]):
    “If humanity is going to survive in the 21st century, we’re going to need more international cooperation…”

2. State Violence, ICE, and Fascism at Home

• Escalation of Paramilitary Policing ([57:27], [58:32], [60:21])
  • DHS and ICE are now openly acting as a paramilitary force in U.S. cities, with recent killings in Minneapolis and Portland.
  • Scenes described as reminiscent of Fallujah or Gaza, with transferred military hardware and tactics post-Iraq/Afghanistan.
  • Quote (Jeet Heer, [58:32]):
    “In some ways what they’re trying to do is to turn Minneapolis into Fallujah or into Gaza.”
• Suppression and Blowback ([62:44], [63:15])
  • The domestic use of military-grade power is a direct consequence of imperial policy—a “blowback” effect.
  • Hometown resistance is growing; polling for abolishing ICE is at an all-time high, even in the absence of Democratic leadership.
  • Quote (Jeet Heer, [63:15]):
    “Once you get government agents shooting civilians, that actually does not tap down on protests... it is traditionally the way which protests kind of spread.”
• Democratic Leadership Paralysis ([65:10], [67:57])
  • Senate Dems (esp. Schumer, Jeffries) are criticized for weak, passive responses—demurring on ICE funding, using passive language about atrocities.
  • Fight Club senators (Warren, Bernie, Van Hollen, Murphy) are urged to take public oppositional fights.
  • Quote (Jeet Heer, [67:57]):
    “You have a gangster empire abroad... and also a gangster empire at home... and you put over Chuck Schumer as your public face... I don’t see how that’s a tenable situation at all.”
• Authoritarian Thresholds ([61:45])
  • The show hammers home the idea that the U.S. is through the threshold of authoritarianism—not merely approaching it.

3. Progressive Governance and Shifting Local Power

• Zoran Mamdani’s Agenda in New York ([07:00], [10:00], [13:30])
  • Newly-elected democratic socialist mayor moves quickly on universal childcare, free buses, and rent freezes—defying centrist naysayers.
  • The hosts highlight that rapid, bold, progressive policy is possible when leadership is proactive and organized.
  • Quote (Sam Seder, [13:00]):
    “Motivated reasoning for the status quo... meanwhile, Mamdani, fresh off of what was an unimaginable win... I would not have bet that he could move that quick.”
• Contrast with Democratic Establishment ([12:58])
  • The “let’s wait and see whether change is possible” mentality is eviscerated.
  • The transition team’s preparedness is lauded—a model for left governance facing national headwinds.

4. Media Complicity & Narrative Control

• CBS and Tony Dokoupil’s Performance ([108:04], [112:05], [121:29])
  • Hosts mercilessly mock the vacuous, centrist “both sides” approach used in mainstream news to describe ICE shootings.
  • Dokoupil quote, [112:05]:
    “But sometimes what matters most is what is yet to be said at all and what we all still need to hear... what we have not yet heard is one another.”
  • The refusal to directly condemn state murder or choose sides is equated with a cowardly moral abdication and normalization of fascism.
  • The show also highlights the demoralization among mainstream journalists who feel their institutions have been captured by non-confrontational, pro-regime corporate logic.

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments (with Timestamps)

• On the obviousness of plunder ([30:44])
  Jeet Heer: “Trump... will just say things out loud that normally would not be said out loud.”

• On the material beneficiaries of empire ([34:17])
  Jeet Heer: “I have yet to see my oil check. I don’t think anyone listening to this program has personally profited from any of these imperial ventures.”

• On resource-based militarism ([44:25])
  Jeet Heer: “With Nazi Germany, Imperial Japan and Mussolini’s Italy, what you saw is these countries wanted to be self sufficient, not trade, but they needed resources and that was the fuel of their militarism.”

• On the intersection of war and masculinity ([47:04])
  Jeet Heer: “Masculinity in decline is as important as the profit motive... the US needs to kick ass somewhere in the world because otherwise things aren’t looking that great.”

• On Democrats’ complicity ([67:57])
  Jeet Heer: “You put over Chuck Schumer as your public face... I don’t see how that’s really a tenable situation at all... that's the weakest link.”

• On paramilitary force at home ([58:32])
  Jeet Heer: “They’re trying to turn Minneapolis into Fallujah or into Gaza.”

• On the politics of false neutrality ([121:29])
  Tony Dokoupil: “It’s to find a way to live with people who are genuinely different from us, to try to be fair to them, and in doing so, make things better and keep things decent...”

  Reaction (Sam Seder, [123:45]):
  “Thanks, Smokey the Bear. Leave the park better than you found it.”

• On the risk of “waiting for the midterms” ([70:42])
  Sam Seder: “This is the stuff you look back in history books and go, this is where they made the mistake. You had a leadership that was just believing that the ship feels like it’s going to hold together.”

• On progressive base vs. leadership ([71:43])
  Jeet Heer: “Normie average Democrats are far more radical than they were in 2018 and even 2020... the real question is at what point does the party start to listen to its base, or does the base try to overthrow the leadership?”

---

Important Segment Timestamps

• [07:00]-[15:38]: Zoran Mamdani's progressive policy blitz and implications for left governance
• [28:10]-[45:51]: Venezuela coup, mercenary imperialism, and new American foreign policy paradigms
• [57:27]-[67:57]: Paramilitary ICE violence in U.S. cities; failures of Democratic leaders to resist
• [108:04]-[123:45]: CBS/Tony Dokoupil’s “both sides” take on ICE killings and media normalization
• [70:42]-[71:43], [64:27]: The stakes: Democratic establishment’s passivity as democracy is eroded

---

Episode Tone

The conversation is urgent, sardonic, and at times deeply frustrated. Sam Seder and his co-hosts blend rigorous critique with biting satire, often amplifying their points with incredulous humor and mockery (especially of mainstream news figures). Jeet Heer maintains a dry, analytical perspective, drawing upon historical parallels and big-picture assessments. Throughout, the mood is a mix of disbelief, anger, and a thread of hope in grassroots organizing and local progressive victories.

---

Conclusion

The episode paints a dire portrait of America in 2026: the open embrace of imperial plunder, the spread of state violence at home, and a sheepish, ineffectual political class more interested in process than in confronting encroaching fascism. Yet, the grassroots response—local progressive government, street resistance, and a restless Democratic base—offers a potential source of renewal. The show closes on the note that direct, public confrontation and bold organizing—locally and nationally—are now urgent imperatives.

---

Transcript

[Sam Cedar]

Hi folks. Today's episode is brought to you by sunsetlake. Sabadeh.com if you use the code left is best, you get 20% off. Well, I don't need to tell you that 2026 has already started off being rather distressing and there's no shame in needing to lean on a little support from your friends at Sunset Lake. Seba Day. They can help you out with some pre roll smokables, some flour, some keef, all sorts of gummies, gummies with th, say gummies with Saba day, gummies with melatonin to help you sleep, gummies with Saba and and Saba day to help you sleep, gummies to help you focus, gummies to help you keep calm. I got some of the focus ones right here actually. All sorts of products. They have tinctures, they've got fudge, they've got coffee with seven a day, all sorts of products, lotions to keep you hydrated, your skin hydrated during these winter months when you're going out and protesting sunset like sebaday.com they don't use pesticides, they use integrated pest management to deal with those little pesky pests. They also use other great farming practices like regenerative farming. And they have great business practices, $20 minimum wage, mostly employee owned. And they also have their movement partners. They've donated tens of thousands of dollars to things like carceral reform, refugee resettlement, Planned Parenthood, on and on and on. Just an all around great company and these days a product you may lean on quite a bit. Nothing like some sub a day just to sort of like calm yourself. In any era when your, your, your regulatory system may be slightly dysregulated. Sunsetlakesabaday.com use the code left is best. You'll get 20% off. And now time for the show the Majority Report with Sam Cedar. Where every day today's casual Friday. That means Monday is casual. Monday, Tuesday casual Tuesday, Wednesday casual hump day, Thursday casual Thirs, that's what we call it. And Friday casual Shabbat. The Majority Report with Sam Cedar. It is Friday, January 9, 2026. My name is Sam Ceder. This is the five time award winning Majority Report. We are broadcasting live steps from the industrially ravaged Gowanus Canal in the heartland of America, Downtown Brooklyn, USA. On the program today. Look back on the first full week of 2026. Already a crap show. Who better to review than Jeet here, national affairs correspondent for the Nation magazine. Also on the program today, federal thugs shoot two in Portland. Two people I should say in Portland. Portland officials already starting to look into investigating those thugs. Trump supposedly calls off a second wave of attacks on Venezuela as he meets with oil executives talking about how to divvy up their national assets. House passes ACA subsidies by a discharge petition now headed to the Senate. House also passes partial funding bills. Remember, we have a government shutdown possibility at least now, a partial one on January 31. Meanwhile, DHS funding still in play as pressure mounts on Jefferies and Schumer to actually exert their leverage to control ice. Five Democratic attorney generals, meanwhile, sue the Trump regime for denying sites appropriated funds. In other words, Trump has already shut down parts of the government, the parts that service working class people, people living in poverty and people are in blue states. Meanwhile, Donald Trump announces he will meet with Nobel prize winning would be new leader of Venezuela, Machado, and says he's open to taking her peace prize.

[Brian]

Give me that.

[Matt Leck]

Nice of her. I thought she wouldn't ask.

[Sam Cedar]

Iranian government shuts down the Internet during a violent crackdown on protests. And guess who they're using as an excuse to crack down on those protests. Donald Trump and his grandstanding about it. Economy adds only 50,000 jobs in December. This was the weakest jobs years 2025 was in decades. War Powers resolution moves forward in the Senate in a bit of a surprise. And more revelations of the Minnesota ice shooter who fleed the scene. He's a vet, he's maga, and he's been on the deportation beat for over a decade. All this and more on today's Majority Report. Attorneys general. Hey, I screwed that up. And people get upset. But it is Casual Friday. Casual Friday. So therefore I'm a little casual. Upsets me when you screw that up. Yeah, Brian gets very upset. Grammar police guy.

[Matt Leck]

Yeah, I listen to the show for the grammar and pronunciation.

[Sam Cedar]

Yeah, well, that. Those are the people who are very hopeful. That's what, that's that contingency. It is the first Friday of January. Holy 2026.

[Brian]

It's only been a week that we've been back.

[Sam Cedar]

I would have to say these could have been the longest five days seriously, that I can remember in 20 years.

[Brian]

Yeah, yeah.

[Sam Cedar]

If you're listening in a coal mine.

[Jeet Heer]

You should feel better.

[Sam Cedar]

You should know how hard our job is. Yeah, exactly. Completely warned. Well, to be fair, to be fair, coal mine is difficult. Every week our job gets, you know, you have to adjust to changing conditions. That's difficult. But we did have good news this week. Zoran Mamdani, who we were told had a slate a very Specific policy agenda. It was four or three or four, four policy points that were really. He ran on. It was free and fast buses. It was rent freeze for rent controlled apartments. It was free universal free daycare and just a broad affordability agenda. But those three big ones. Oh, and I would say there were four. He wanted to do four or five government or city run supermarkets. Yeah, but that's sort of like we didn't hear so much about that in the closing weeks because I mean, it's, it's, it just never, it never captured the imagination of the Cuomoites and the Islamophobes and the neoliberals as much as they had hoped. So we just didn't hear as much about it. But it was still obviously part of his plank and, but we were told over and over again how like once they shifted from that's a horrible idea. It shifted into and it'll never happen. Yep, it could never happen. I mean, we were told this by the policy wonks, the ones who built their careers on being sort of like level headed, center left policy wonks. What, where was this one from?

[Matt Leck]

This was Annie Lowery in her piece on.

[Sam Cedar]

Oh yeah, Annie Lowry. You know, look, I'm not responsible for my ex wife and I certainly didn't and wasn't responsible for my wife when I was married, so. But she is, you know, I mentioned that because Ezra Klein, she's obviously like Ezra Klein's married to Ezra Klein. But she held a, you know, and holds a position not too dissimilar than Ezra Klein's, at least, you know, ideologically speaking. And Mamdani is Cuomo's rumpled Ernest Foil. She wrote. When was this back? Like over the summer?

[Matt Leck]

Yeah, this was in the. Yeah, in the primary.

[Sam Cedar]

And his resume is thin. He worked as a campaign operative for a few years before winning a state assembly seat in 2020. That was five years ago. I mean, you know, five years of state government. Okay.

[Brian]

Do you think that they were. Yeah, I mean, this was what it sounded like when Obama was only a senator for two years and this centrists were saying the same thing until they realized, oh, he's one of us.

[Sam Cedar]

He's a leftist. Bernie Sanders in the leftist Bernie Sanders mold with a raft of great sounding policies. Free buses, exclamation point. Free childcare, cheap groceries, frozen rents. But a lot of these are impractical at best. Free buses would deprive the MTA of needed revenue. We'll see about that. Free childcare would require a mammoth tax hike that Albany would need to approve, which has shown no interest in doing. Well, to be fair. We've got to. We've got to give it a little bit of time. It is. Mumdani has been in office for eight days now. And of course, he announced with Hochul, they are rolling out the free universal childcare for New York City and actually expanding it in the state, too. They're starting pilot programs now. They don't have a dedicated revenue stream yet in terms of like two, three years out, but the idea is create facts on the ground, shifting the budget, and they're going forward with this. And so. And that's really. That was the biggest one, to be honest with you. Like, that's the biggest. That's the most expensive, that's the most ambitious. And they went for that big time.

[Brian]

And when Lowery says Albany has shown no interest in doing this, the centrists and people who don't want to change the system act like politics is static. And it's the same people that will use poll testing to drive their policies. These were the popularists that branded themselves as such during the Kamala Harris run, which they act like they cannot change or shift public opinion by governing or making things possible via messaging. So they will argue that nothing can change because of the situations that currently exist in. Trump has shown how you can drastically shift public opinion in both ways. In many ways. Right. Just by hammering a certain message. And obviously, Mamdani is both, like, righteous and also good. You know, this is what good governance looks like.

[Sam Cedar]

Yeah. I mean, nothing. You know, And Annie Lowery is not like. It's not specifically about Annie Lowery. There was a lot of these ilk.

[Matt Leck]

Yep.

[Sam Cedar]

Who were writing this stuff and making this argument and been making his argument for years and years and years. I mean, Matt Iglesias, I think, was the one. I don't know if he came up with the term Green Lantern or Green Lanternism, where, you know, President Obama has the ability to do anything because he's got some type of, like, superpowers. I don't know if it was a glaciates, but he certainly made the term popular. And it's basically just a way of insisting that you don't expect more from your politicians or that they have. Or that specific politicians have the ability to move the needle on specific policies. Yeah.

[Matt Leck]

It's just motivated reasoning for the status quo.

[Sam Cedar]

100%. And meanwhile, mom Donnie, fresh off of what I mean, obviously was an unimaginable win for a lot of people. And frankly, I mean, we had said he's got to move quick. But in a million years, I would have not bet that he would have been able to move that quick.

[Brian]

This transition team that he ended up being able to fund was key with all of these incredible people in it. Julius.

[Sam Cedar]

And they were doing it before.

[Brian]

And they were doing it before.

[Sam Cedar]

I mean, for the official transition team. We were talking to people during. In the weeks, in the final weeks of the. Of the campaign where they were saying, like, they have a transition to transition team. But they weren't just like, focusing on transition. They were focusing on this. I mean, this stuff had been negotiated out.

[Brian]

And this is a laboratory for governance as well as democratic socialist policy.

[Sam Cedar]

100%. And like we said the other day, this is sort of like the. They had. They were. They're putting together almost like the best parts of the Biden administration in exile.

[Brian]

Yeah.

[Sam Cedar]

With this.

[Brian]

Which were, as we know, the concessions that Bernie and Warren got from Biden.

[Sam Cedar]

But anyway, and I guess it was Ezra Klein who wrote the Green lantern presidency in 2015. But at that time, they were all sort of like, you know, it was Iglesias and him at vox. Meanwhile, in the wake of what we've seen in Minneapolis and now in Portland, Mamdani and others, you know, and we'll. We'll cover Those other progressive DAs and mayors have basically planted their flags and they are basically saying, well, here is Mamdani and his response to what happened in Minneapolis.

[Jeet Heer]

I have made it clear to everyone within my city government, and that extends to nypd, that we are going to uphold our sanctuary city policies. We are going to adhere to them.

[Sam Cedar]

That is why One of the 11.

[Jeet Heer]

Executive orders that we signed was to repeal the previous administration's order to allow for collaboration with ICE on Rikers Island. What we are going to be doing is following the laws that we have set, laws which have kept New Yorkers safe. And we are going to make it clear to each and every person in the city what their rights are.

[Brian]

He was also on CNN and MSNBC last night saying something similar. And he explained what sanctuary city policies were. Basically that you need a warrant signed by a judge if you're going to enter things like schools and other places that I believe the city has jurisdiction over. And it occurred to me when I was hearing that, that I don't know if I've heard another prominent Democratic politician talk about what sanctuary city laws actually are, because for so long, the Republicans have defined it as, like, basically weak on crime, soft liberals in cities who are not making you safe. And they use the crime Panic because of the spike in crime that has now precipitously declined that we saw in 2021 and 2022 due to the once in a lifetime pandemic. So they, the Democrats completely abandoned that issue and allowed Republicans to define it. And Zoron is here actually explaining to people that it's quite, it's actually common sense.

[Sam Cedar]

But here's the real question. It is one thing to remind people that ICE needs a judicial warrant to enter into private property. And we've seen them time and time blow through that. The question becomes at that point, if we see ICE doing that, going into a store and attempting to just tackle somebody because they look like they're, you know, Latino or brown or, or, you know, have an accent or whatever it is, the question becomes then do the cops come in and go, you are trespassing. You're assaulting this person. Yeah, and put them in cuffs? I mean, we're going to see. But you, you can see, you know, we've had a couple of protests in New York City over the past couple of days, obviously in the wake of both of Venezuela and in Minneapolis. And there is a. And, you know, we'll see how long this can be maintained. But there is a distinct difference in the way that the cops are dealing with these protests. You don't see the riot gear come out right at Jump street, essentially. And we'll see.

[Brian]

But in the absence of national, of a lot of national Democratic messaging on this, in terms of at least leadership, AOC, others have been good on this. ICE's approval rating has completely collapsed with the American public. Like when Trump took Office, it was plus 16 per YouGov and the Economist. Now it's minus 14 in terms of the approval rating and an over 20 point increase. This was a civics poll in support for abolishing it altogether. And that is without Democrats pushing it. So that energy is there, but it can dissipate quite easily if there isn't a national agenda to support that anger.

[Sam Cedar]

We'll talk to Jeet here about that and more in just a moment. Beginning of the year, you've made some New Year's resolutions. I imagine some people, when you get to be my age, one of them is, I got to take care of my health a little better. But maybe if you're one of those people who, let's say, who hasn't seen a dentist in 15 years, you're wondering, how will I find a dentist? Well, it's not just dental. It could be anything. Brian, I got great teeth. It is And I, you know, like I've been very fortunate. I have found good doctors over my life. Now. I, and, but there are times when maybe there's like a, I had an emergency and I was out of town. I needed to find a dentist. I found a great one and I did it through ZocDoc. ZocDoc is a free app and website that helps you find and book high quality in network doctors. So you can find someone you love and we'll take care of you. Brian. Obviously this applies to everybody, but not just Brian. We're talking about booking in network appointments with more than 150,000 providers across all states. Look, I get it. The idea of like you know, finding a new doctor and dealing with it and just even going to that first appointment is sometimes feels exhausting. But Zocdoc makes it easy. It doesn't matter whether you're looking for dermatology, dentistry, primary care, eye care or one of the other 200 plus specialties offered on Zocdoc. You could easily search by specialty or symptom and when you're ready you can see their real time availability and click to book instantly. No phone tag, no waiting around, no negotiating with somebody who's working at the front desk. They just the appointments pop up, bingo bango, you nail one. And usually appointments made through Zocdoc happen fast, typically within just 24 to 72 hours of booking. You can even have some same day appointments. Want to thank zocdoc for sponsoring today's episode helping both Emma and Matt and myself. And soon. Brian, stop putting off those doctor's appointments. I don't want fingers in my mouth. And go to zocdoc.com majority well you can, you can, you can search like does this dentist put their fingers in your mouth? And I imagine they all do that. Stop putting off those doctors appointments. Go to zocdoc.com majority to find and instantly book a doctor you love today. That z O C Doc.com Majority that's Z O C Doc Zocdoc.com Majority thanks Zoc Doc for sponsoring this message. Also beginning of the new year you're thinking about how you're going to live maybe a healthier year. And all the stress that may be associated with this year ritual takes the pressure off, at least fulfilling that one thing in terms of making sure you're getting your vitamins. Their evidence based essential multivitamins contains key nutrients that are often missed in the average diet. Doesn't matter whether it's holiday season or not in high Quality bioavailable forms that your body can actually use. I've told this story a million times, but for perennially is that the way or annually? Every year I would go to my doctor's, I would see my doctor's appointment, take my blood and come back. Your vitamin D is low. And I would go, I'd leave my doctor's office or I would, at that point I would go and get the vitamin D. I would take it for a month, I'd forget about it. It was very difficult for me to remember to take it. And then whatever ritual came along, not only do they send you on a monthly basis the vitamins you need, but for me the big key was gentle on your stomach. So when I remember it, it's usually like I haven't eaten. And then if you wait, I'm gonna wait till I take it till after I eat, then I forget. But the other parts about it that I really like is that it has traceable key ingredients. That means that like, you know where these vitamins are coming from, the different elements associated with them. Because there are some countries frankly where you don't necessarily want your vitamins from because the stuff isn't necessarily free of like junk that's been put into the ground. Ritual is a science backed multivitamin for men 18 plus with high quality like I say, traceable key ingredients in clean bioavailable forms. Vitamin D3 to support normal muscle and immune function and Omega 3 DHA to support heart and brain health. They're essential for men 18 men 18 plus. I take the over 50. Multivitamin contains 10 key nutrients and two delayed release capsules designed for optimal absorption per day. Designed to be gentle on the stomach with a minty essence in every bottle that helps make taking your Maltese actually enjoyable. Ritual multivitamins are vegan, non GMO project certified gluten and major allergen free and like I say, made traceable. Essential for men is a quality multivitamin from a company you can actually trust for a limited time. Save 40% on your first month at ritual.com majority. That's ritual.com majority for 40% off your first month. Check it out. We will put the links and coupon codes in the podcast and YouTube description. Also just a reminder, it's your support that makes this show possible. You want the free show free of commercials, go to jointhemajorityreport.com all right, quick break. When we come back, Jeet here, national affairs correspondent for the nation. Sam. We are back. Sam Cedar, Emma Vigland on the Majority Report, it is a pleasure to welcome back for the first time this year, Jeet here, national affairs correspondent at the Nation magazine and also the proprietor of the YouTube channel Cultural Logic, which I hope people will check out.

[Jeet Heer]

Continuing my long trend of appropriating Marxist titles for IP purposes.

[Sam Cedar]

I love it. Yes, well, folks should check it out. We'll put a link to that, too. I mean, you've got, you've got. Let me just like Marty supreme, cover up the comedy of anxiety and rogue performers, or what was it? Jeffrey Epstein, the American Empire and Pynchon's Gravity Rainbow. Yeah, just give folks a sense of like the, well, the cultural logic of what's going on there. All right, G. Oh, actually, I'm gonna.

[Jeet Heer]

Do one now called Seymour supreme, which is about the similarities between the ping pong player played by Timothee Chalamet and our greatest living investigative reporter, Seymour Hirsch. Yes. Yeah.

[Sam Cedar]

Oh, my God. All right, well, that sounds fascinating. I have yet to see Marty supreme.

[Brian]

So it's great.

[Sam Cedar]

It's no spoilers.

[Jeet Heer]

It is very good. Yes, yes.

[Sam Cedar]

But speaking of spoilers, the, the year's gone off. It's not gone off to the best start. It began with our coup. I mean, is that what you would call it? It was a coup, really.

[Jeet Heer]

Well, it was cool. Except actually we had some editorial discussions at the Nation because some people said a coup has to be internal, so it's an external coup. Or it's like, you know, Trump deciding to impose a coup and by all evidence, like, you know, working with the existing Venezuelan regime to, you know, get the scapegoat of Nicolas Madero and his wife, but otherwise keeping everything in place. So, I mean, I think that's important to understand that this is, you know, Trump always says, you know, we're not doing regime change wars anymore. I guess in a sense this is right, because it is not. You're not changing the regime, you're keeping the regime in place, but, you know, changing the leader.

[Sam Cedar]

And I mean, it feels like this was, I mean, it is, it's telling because it is a prime example of Donald Trump using whatever millions of dollars were associated with the, you know, 11 warships off the coast of Venezuela. Who knows how many millions and millions of dollars we're expending to pirate Venezuelan ships with oil. We obviously, we killed probably over 100 people in fishing boats or maybe, maybe they were drug running, you know, small time drug running speedboats. We killed around 75 people in this kidnapping of Maduro. I mean, it's unclear even, like there's been people suggested that maybe we made some type of deal with Maduro as well, but it all seems to be for the benefit of some hedge funders and oil execs. Like, there's no plunder for the American people here. It is plunder for corporate interests. And it's done so nakedly without any of the pretense of.

[Brian]

But due to Trump liberating it because, like, warrant, they were trying to manufacture this by saying narco terrorism. And repeatedly, the Republican line is about drugs. And Trump goes there and says, for the oil.

[Matt Leck]

Oh, yeah.

[Sam Cedar]

I mean, I was always for the.

[Brian]

Oil, of course, but, like, you know, you don't. That is one of the things about Trump that is, like, as educational subtext. Yes. Is that the educational part is that he will just say things out loud that normally would not be said out loud.

[Jeet Heer]

Yeah, no, I mean, that's absolutely true. I mean, that was actually, you know, longtime Trump watchers will know that was actually his line going back, as far as I can tell, at least to 2013, probably earlier, that the big mistake of the Iraq war was we didn't take the oil. You know, like, when you're robbing hotel, you got to take, like, the. The towels and the accoutrements. Why didn't we take the oil as we were leaving Iraq? And what's interesting is that actually, like, Republican public opinion follows Trump rather than he's, like, going along with the base on this one. Because now all the polling shows that now Republicans think, yes, it's okay to, like, invade a country to take the oil. And even the sort of sad, lucky Matt Taibbi is now saying, yeah, taking oil is.

[Sam Cedar]

Let's watch this. Because. Because first off, the fact of the matter is, like, this is a good opportunity. I wasn't. We were going to play. We were going to play this later. But the idea of, like, we take the oil, like, it's like, I'm not. It's unclear to me what that even means. Like, we bring back the oil in these huge vats and we bring them into the center of town, and everybody comes in and dips with their ladle and puts it in their pail and takes it home. Like, no, we got. We got the oil from Iraq. If we are, you know, Exxon, bp, whatever it is. But here is Matt Taibbi and this is like, you know, people may not even be aware of this guy anymore, but this is how far down the rabbit hole people are going to justify the fact that whatever the personal grievance, grievance that they, they had and Taibi had a lot of personal grievances with the so called left or liberal left or whatever it is. And this is what it's left to, you know, and as for the Iraq oil thing, I was all in favor of like, if we were there. Yeah, let's take it. Like, I, I don't, I don't understand. Not, you know, I mean, I guess the, the idea of turning it over.

[Jeet Heer]

To the Iraqi people, but I don't.

[Sam Cedar]

Know, I, I felt a little more mercenary about that. Like, well, you know, once you're in the realm of warfare, you're in the realm of self interest.

[Jeet Heer]

Right.

[Sam Cedar]

And the way we're supposed to do wars now is we invade, destabilize and destroy whole countries and kill tens of thousands and have tens of thousands killed, as happened in Iraq, but we're too good to take the oil. Well, okay, now, first off, I interviewed Matt Taibbi, I don't know, 50 times from, from the time that we invaded Iraq until probably close to 2017 or 2018. And I never heard him say that. But this, you know, this is the sort of like, do you think that we are too more that the reason why the American public did not take the oil is because we felt we were too morally righteous to take that, or is it that the. It did not. Some of it may have, like, you know, certainly there's some. They, the Iraqis got some benefit from the oil coming out of their ground. It's not like they're getting the full benefit. There are other people are profiting.

[Jeet Heer]

Yeah, I don't know exactly. I have yet to see my oil check. I don't think anyone listening to this program has personally profited from any of these imperial ventures. I mean, I mean, that is actually one of the sort of, you know, illusions created by any sort of like, nationalist politics. The idea that, you know, the wars pursued by your country are going to like redound to your own benefit, whether it's a psychic benefit or a financial benefit. I mean, obviously, you know, it's not the case. And this is why, like, up until Trump, like, you know, going back like more than a century, you know, American foreign policy has always been like, let's not talk about the oil. Let's try to like, at least have some sort of pretense that we're doing it for some higher purpose. And certainly like, you know, like all the American wars, you know, this is like true, not just like, you know, George W. Bush and the neocons, but like going Back to Theodore Roosevelt and McKinley. Like, they're always like, you know, we have to liberate the people of Cuba and the Philippines. It's our Christian duty. It's the white man's burden. People have normally refrained from, from saying that they're doing war on behalf of financial interest. Because that's like crazy concept. It's a crazy concept. You like prison soldiers. If you're a soldier, are you going to die so that ExxonMobil or be wounded or traumatized or have PTSD so that Chevron and Exxon can have a higher rate of return? What exactly are we saying here? But yeah, I think this is like Trump's one innovation because in many other ways what he's doing in Venezuela is like actually in continuity with American foreign policy, you know, going back to the 19th century.

[Sam Cedar]

I mean, it's much, it's, you know, it's much harder to argue that like in some way that we're in danger from Venezuela. Yeah, like, I mean, like, you know, do it sort of order. And you know, and it turns out like people are not ODing on Venezuelan drugs in any significant numbers. Maybe, maybe there are some in Europe, maybe, but that didn't fly. And so he's just sort of like gave up the pretense.

[Jeet Heer]

Yeah, I mean, as I understand it, like, it's not even like fentanyl, like it is like cocaine and like we're fighting to prevent Europeans from like doing blow. What is the logic here?

[Brian]

But it's reflected in the polling. Yeah, it's reflected in the polling. The American public doesn't buy it either. And I think, like, that's what I mean, that Trump is, we've seen now a theme of Trump doing a maximalist position and then basically kind of cutting it off and walking it back and the rest of the administration picking up the pieces and trying to craft something coherent from it. The tariffs are a part of that too. You know, even the strikes on the so called drug boats. But also taking out Maduro here, where I think they were trying to, in his view, send a message to the rest of Latin America that they should play ball. And he wants to have so called negotiations with guns to the heads of these leaders in Latin America. And that appears to be the policy. So like, I think part of what you're seeing with the Republican base coming back and supporting it too is because Trump is saying or claiming that this is not going to lead to war. We'll see what happens.

[Jeet Heer]

Yeah, yeah, no, I think that's right. But I Think we should also. I mean, even though Trump. We should take Trump at his word that it is about the oil, there's also this element of spectacle. And I mean, like, he and Hegseth have both worried about the fact that the US has not really won, like, a credible military victory since World War II. And it is sort of about. And there's a lot of anxiety about, you know, manliness and our soldiers are too fat. So I actually think that a lot of.

[Sam Cedar]

What about Grenada, though?

[Jeet Heer]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. No, we showed them.

[Sam Cedar]

Yeah.

[Jeet Heer]

I mean, the. So, I mean, in some ways, I mean, it is a little bit like Grenada or the Panama, 1990. It is a kind of imperial show of force. I think that the other innovative aspect, although, again, you can see this in Reagan as well, is a sort of privatization. The oil funds are not actually going into the US Treasury. The Trump administration is deciding which banks to keep the funds in. And I think that there is a way in which, like, Trump is sort of like, you know, the fruits of Iran contrast or the fruits of the fact that Iran Contra was never fully punished. So there's a kind of like, covert privatization going on as well. I mean, yeah, the narco terrorism is a way of trying to repurpose the existing, you know, war on terror and war on drugs rhetoric to give a new ideological rationale. But in a lot of other ways, I mean, this is sort of like an empire in retreat, because if you look at, like, Trump's larger national security, it is like, you know, well, we're going to kind of like let Russia have its way in Europe. And also that, you know, more interestingly, they've sort of decided they don't actually want a cold war with China and are, you know, pursuing a policy of maybe giving China more leg room in Asia. And so, like, your America's compensation then is, well, we get the Western hemisphere. But I mean, like, the US has always had the Western hemisphere. Like, there's never been a credible military threat to America, you know, on this part of the world.

[Sam Cedar]

I mean, what is it like? That's the sort of. I mean, but it does feel like there is this sort of retreat to Fortress America, which, you know, there are some parts, like, I like the idea that we're not necessarily the.

[Jeet Heer]

Yeah, we are.

[Sam Cedar]

We're not going to go to war, you know, that we're not going to go to war with China, although not convinced that the idea of, like, we're going to carve up the world into three neighborhoods and, you know, like, that doesn't ultimately lead, it's just sort of like redirecting where the imperialism is going, as opposed to sort of like forging a. An idea of, here the world can work to the benefit of everyone if we cooperate with each other.

[Jeet Heer]

Yeah, well, I mean, that is a larger threat, and you don't actually see any Democrats talking about this. But the real problem is, like, if humanity is going to survive in.

[Sam Cedar]

The.

[Jeet Heer]

21St century, and I have kids and you have kids, we want the species to survive, you're actually going to need more international cooperation because you're going to see more pandemics, you're going to see climate change. You're going to have to have a world where countries can work with each other. So this whole idea of, like, you know, dividing the world into, like, these big chunks a, you know, like, undermines any possibility of international cooperation, especially since the US Will be the most, along with Russia, will be the most retrogressive, you know, pursuing fossil fuel capitalism until the cows come home. So I think that that's a major problem. The other thing is, I will say, you know, we've actually worked this experiment before. We've actually seen what happens when you divide the world into imperial blocks. And do these empires, like, respect each other's boundaries or do they actually.

[Sam Cedar]

Well, that's the thing, right.

[Jeet Heer]

A little bit of the history of the 19th and early 20th century is very educational on this point of view.

[Sam Cedar]

We should also say, incidentally, just as a side note, there's probably a decent argument that more people die from Venezuelan oil being burned on an annual basis than drugs. But putting that aside, the point of the. The. Let me. Let's talk about that danger and the lessons that the, you know, early 20th century in particular showed us about, like these empires, the. That. That you can create, you can live in this bubble for an extended period of time until all of a sudden there are certain resources you need that you find are not necessarily we have access to. And then all of a sudden you've. All you've been doing is, you know, for risk players. You've been building up these huge armies on Camp Jacka. And then all of a sudden you want to start to move, and that's when you have no sort of, like, fundamental relationships and interdependencies that keep you from just trying to see. Can I forcibly take this stuff?

[Jeet Heer]

No, absolutely, absolutely, yeah. No, I mean, Trump's point of view is essentially sort of 18th and 19th century, one of a sort of mercantilism, and everything sort of ties together both the tariffs and the interest in territorial conquest. Like he doesn't believe that trade enriches, but actually that resources, control of resources is where wealth is. And so you use tariffs to build these fortress protective blocks. But the critique of mercantilism was not just an economic critique that this is not the way to maximize wealth. It was also a critique of foreign policy. Adam Smith basically argued that the reason why the European countries were constantly fighting imperial wars in the 18th century was because they were mercantilists. They wouldn't trade, so when they needed resources they had to fight over territory. And that is a big problem. And you know, like, you know, not to break Goodwin's law, but like, you know, like in with Nazi Germany, Imperial Japan and Mussolini's Italy, what you basically saw is these countries did want to be self sufficient, not trade, but they also needed resources and that was the sort of fuel of their militarism.

[Brian]

But compare that to China, but, but compare that to China that has done so much work with state capacity to onshore things. And then their relationships with the rest of the world are largely soft power. And they focus a lot on Africa. And a lot of, you know, people that are thinking two or three steps ahead in some of these resource wars are looking at Africa there. I'm not saying that this is like a benevolent relationship with China, but it's a strategic one that perhaps the United States, you know, if there was a progressive, progressive leadership would have gone down that road. But we're just building a fortress that's based on old energy technology and cutting ourselves off from the rest of the world.

[Jeet Heer]

Yeah, no, absolutely, like, I mean, I mean it's an interesting question as to what road China will go down because I think you see both aspects there, they do are pursuing sort of soft power quite successfully. But you know, there's also some belligerence in its relationship with some of its Asian neighbors. But yeah, I mean, but the long term recipe for the planet, you know, like with this formula is that you're going to like have like a century of war and you know, like our species can't afford that. We don't actually have the luxury of resource wars in the coming century. Like if, if we want our humanity to survive in the other.

[Sam Cedar]

I would think just even from a practical perspective, the difference between trying to maintain an empire, if you will, or a sphere of influence from, you know, in today, in the 2000s versus the 1920s is that we can't necessarily extract what we want from Venezuela in the way that we could have from, you know, whatever it was Honduras in the, you know, the 19th century or the 20th century or, you know, anywhere in Latin America or South America for the. I mean, the. Because there's so many weapons and so many different sort of, like, funding mechanisms that there are different constituencies in just even, like in the country like Venezuela that might just say, like, you know what? We're going to take advantage of a sense of nationalism in this country as well, and this is the way that we're going to wage these internal wars.

[Jeet Heer]

Yeah, no, I mean, and I think that's exactly why they pursue this sort of Venezuelan adventure with basically making a deal with the regime. Because if people who know military stuff better than I do basically say it would actually be very easy for guerrilla groups in Venezuela to, like, you know, make it very difficult for anyone to get the oil. And the other aspect I would mention, which is, you know, in this sense, I think Trump's ideology is more powerful than even, like, self interest. Like, the oil companies themselves, like, would have actually just preferred, like, yeah, let's just make a deal with Maduro. Let's just make a deal with the regime. Because we're precisely the reason that Sam mentioned that, you know, they could actually, like, make things very difficult for us. So, like, Trump wants that imperial display. He wants. I mean, I do actually think that this is almost like a sort of, you know, masculinity in decline is as important as the, the profit motive. You know, like, Trump wants to both show, you know, he's a successful businessman, he's going to get a lot of wealth from this, but also, like, there's a lot of worry that, you know, the US Needs to kick ass somewhere in the world because otherwise things aren't looking that great, you know, and it's not an accident coming out of the, you know, on the heels of the defeats in Afghanistan, in Iraq, let's talk about.

[Sam Cedar]

You wrote a piece earlier this week about European cowardice in light of this. And yesterday. I think it was yesterday. I guess yesterday or sometime maybe last night, Russia had a huge assault on Ukraine with hundreds of drones and also using. A ballistic missile that is nuclear capable. They didn't. There was no nukes on this in this missile. But it's basically a way of saying, like, we can do this.

[Jeet Heer]

Yeah.

[Sam Cedar]

It's just a matter of what we decide to put into the, you know, into the, the cap of this thing. What, what's, what's your take on this? I mean, you know, because there have been reporting that the Russians have offered Trump in his first term. The idea of, like, you guys get Venezuela, you can have all the resources in the Western Hemisphere and just stay out. You know, we stay out of your backyard, you stay out of ours, you give us Ukraine and no, you know, no interference. And there's been a couple of different, like, reporting of sources where that was floated. Is this part of. Is it a coincidence that they're doing this now?

[Jeet Heer]

Yeah, No, I don't think it's a coincidence. I mean, I think the larger structural issue is that the Europeans are very dependent on America as their protector. And Trump has decided, going back to 2015, that he's going to run NATO as a protection racket. And Trump's relationship with Russia, I think, is in some ways similar to, like, a sort of, like, you know, one mafia family's relationship with another, that on one level, you're kind of rivals, but actually you support each other, because if you're selling protection, like, it actually helps you that there are these other gang of thugs, that they are, like, threatening people. And, you know, Trump's message to the Europeans has always been, you know, nice continent you have here. It'd be a shame if my friend Vladimir did something to it. And, I mean, like, to me, the distressing thing, and I see this also as a Canadian, because this is a factor here as well, is that this is pretty obvious going back to 2015. And one thing I sort of got Wrong was in 2015, I was writing that I think that the rise of Trump will lead Europe to realize that they have to take their security into their own hands. And you're going to see sort of EU become not just an economic relationship, but like a sort of, you know, political military one. And there's sort of steps in that direction, but it's been very slow. I think there's a lot of path dependency on relying on NATO. And that just kind of, like, seems a mistake. Like, I actually don't think, you know, if we're heading in this world of these sort of gangster empires that pose a real problem. And one sees us, like, the way the Europeans are responding to Venezuela, you know, like the Keith Starmer, like, you know, Keir Starmer, like, he was like, you know, it was asked, you know, is this a war crime? He says, well, you know, we'll investigate eventually. You know, we believe in international law. Like, refusing to say anything. It's a very difficult and. But a position they're in. But I actually, like, blame themselves. Like, I think that they have not seriously thought about their security and that has put them at the mercy not just of Putin, but of Trump, because Putin and Trump work together on this.

[Sam Cedar]

As problematic as the, you know, United nations is and as sort of. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know if you could say that, like, international law is sort of like a Pyrrhic win on some level. But. But, you know, it's a lot of, like, you know, a lot of people had to sort of, like, agree, you know, we're just going to buy into this to some extent, and it was abused over and. Yeah, but even the sort of, like, you know, the sort of, like, very weak internal structure of international law, I think we're going to miss that.

[Jeet Heer]

Yeah, no, no, we're absolutely going to miss that. And I think, like, one of the big mistakes that the Europeans made in Canada made is, like, not trying to, like, strengthen it and defend it, you know, like, against the Biden administration when they were going out the international. If you're thinking about the middle powers, like, you know, like the European countries, I think the Latin American countries and the Asian countries, I think, like, the strongest card that they can play is to try to, like, you know, be the upholders of international law in defiance of the United States. You know, there's. So right now in Europe, and the big thing is, like, Greenland, like, they're. They're actually, like, you know, really trying to think through, like, should we help the Danes defend Greenland? Are we going to, like, maybe sacrifice Greenland to keep Trump on board? But I mean, like, why keep Trump on board if he. He's just gonna. This is just like kissing the ring of the Godfather, like, and I don't think that that's something that, like, works in your interest in the long run.

[Sam Cedar]

It's those countries who have the most to lose because the. The sort of. Those who are, like, more impoverished and have less power, they're getting screwed always, regardless of sort of, like, the world order. It's those sort of middle countries who are going to get. Who needed to uphold this stuff the most because they have the most to lose in these type of environments.

[Jeet Heer]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, I mean, like, I did to me, like, you know, as a Canadian, like, I think about this, like, stuff a lot. Like, we actually, like, need to think of our foreign policy apart from the United States, you know, like, you know, President Neil Macron. I know France has nuclear weapons, nuclear submarines. If you want to include Canada in your nuclear umbrella, you know, maybe we could make some sort of deal.

[Brian]

Right?

[Jeet Heer]

The. But I Mean, the other aspect of all this is I actually do think one thing you're going to go seeing going forward is a lot more nuclear proliferation. Like, I actually think like, you know, in this realm of gangster empires, like, unless you have nukes, you're not going to be able to sit at the table.

[Brian]

Yeah. I mean, my alternate theory to what you're saying, I would say is also just that like, Trump's unilateral actions in the sphere of foreign policy don't always match up with like, say the budget that Congress has allocated. I mean, you still have a Republican Party that despite kind of following Trump's rhetoric in 2024 about Ukraine votes to send weapons to them all the time, because, like, even though of course Russia is the aggressor here, the weapons manufacturers in this country love this relationship. So, like, I wonder European drawdown, Like, I wonder if European leaders are basically trying to wait out the storm of his public threat thrashing about, which seems to have been fruitful in other areas and like, understanding he doesn't have the stamina or character to see through any kind of vision that he supposedly adheres to.

[Jeet Heer]

Yeah, no, I think that is a sort of gamble that like, after that you can wait out Trump and you know, you'll get. Either he'll get tired or you'll get a different administration. I just don't think like in the long run, I don't know like whether it's Trump, it's an America, there's a two party system, you're going to get someone like Trump. I think, you know, this is where the kind of wind is blowing. But yeah, no, that is the sort of like logic that they're working from.

[Brian]

In the long run. I think your analysis is absolutely on point. Like even we saw it early on in the Biden or in the Biden era, a recognition that markets and like our international trade that presents national security like issues to not have. Like, I mean, now we're back to kind of onshoring certain things, but like there's this desire to kind of return, reject certain kind of globalization of things that I think is reflective in foreign policy, but also in trade and things like that that both that Biden responded to as well with the inflation reduction act and some of the infrastructure here too.

[Sam Cedar]

So yeah, let's, let's turn to the other horror show that is happening more domestically. I guess.

[Jeet Heer]

I would want to emphasize, I think actually, you know, what's happening now with ice. Like that is also a part of all the same program. This is like sort of imperial blowback. I don't think it's an accident that the ICE agent that shot killed Good. He was a former Iraq.

[Sam Cedar]

Yep. And certainly the sort of the way in which seeing fully paramilitaried, totally geared up, paramilitary in the streets is a function of what we saw in the wake of, of the Iraq invasion in Afghanistan where old military equipment was basically given to police departments and suddenly 2006 we had, you know, up armored vehicles riding through our streets.

[Brian]

I mean, DHS is a war on terror creation.

[Sam Cedar]

Yep.

[Jeet Heer]

Yeah, no, absolutely. I mean like we. In some ways what they're trying to do is to turn Minneapolis into Fallujah or into Gaza. You know, like, I think the sort of continuities between international policy and domestic are very strong. I think Stephen Miller is perhaps a good example of this. You know, like he's sort of coming out of, you know, David Horowitz and that whole sort of wing of the Republican Party which is strongly for the war in Iraq and in Afghanistan, but also like, you know, has a very militarized view. You know, as an interview with cnn, Miller said something to the fact, you know, well, this is the real world. This is where the strong rule and that is the sort of, you know, world of force that they're trying to impose both domestically and in the Western hemisphere.

[Sam Cedar]

So the Trump administration sent another hundred ICE agents to Minneapol as a way, I think of showing like we're not backing down, we're going full force on this. A day after a woman shot in the face killed by a, you know, la migra, I guess in Minneapolis, two people are shot in Portland. Also indicative of. There was clearly no message like hey guys, let's back off for a day or two and let the heat draw down. They're doing the opposite.

[Jeet Heer]

They don't have any sort of strategy of de escalation like it is always. I mean, I think that is one thing that characterizes the whole administration. It's always escalate, escalate, escalate.

[Brian]

Yep.

[Sam Cedar]

So play this out for us here, Jeet. We have, we have polling, Emma, read it off at the top of the show that shows like, you know, people are very displeased, more, you know, more in favor of abolish ICE than they were even the sort of like the first time it became popular.

[Brian]

Can I just. I mean that's a 21% increase in a year just on election day. Only 21% of Americans civics poll supported abolishing ICE. Now 42% abolishing support abolishing ICE entirely. 50% oppose it, but that's, I mean, obviously more fluid, and that's absent any national leadership Democratic messaging that would be pushing this matter.

[Sam Cedar]

But. But we need more than that. Like, that may be helpful in the midterms, assuming that we have midterms or that the midterms, you know, reflect the way that people intend or actually did vote. But, like, we're at a sort of an inflection point where more people have to come out like these authoritarian regimes. Right. And we're about as, like, I don't know, when you cross the threshold into an authoritarian regime.

[Jeet Heer]

Right. Like.

[Sam Cedar]

And, like, I don't think it's. I don't think it's one of those things where, you know, it's a data type of thing. It really also has to do with the sort of the mentality of people. The value to them of shooting that woman dead is that that's in the back of the minds of people who may, you know, in some way get into an argument with ICE next time.

[Brian]

And your race isn't going to protect you.

[Sam Cedar]

And, like. And so, you know, on one hand, it increases the amount of. Of negative opinion towards ice, but on the other hand, it enhances their abilities in some ways because it will create fear in other people. You know, it will create fear as to, like, am I going to go out there and challenge ICE in the same way that I may have thought about five days ago?

[Jeet Heer]

Yeah, well, I mean, I think the broader dynamic is that, like, it's not just like the national polling, like, within the places where they're sending ice. ICE is, like, very unpopular. Right. Like, you know, like these big urban centers. And I think, like, one of the dynamics here is that they actually have met a lot of resistance, that there has been a lot of, like, kind of pushback. And ICE is like, constantly.

[Sam Cedar]

They failed in Charlotte big time. I mean, then Charlotte, they got kicked out of there, like, you know, having done maybe a quarter of what their quota was.

[Jeet Heer]

Yeah, yeah, no, exactly. And in fact, I mean, I think even the earlier decision to, like, you know, follow the courts on the National Guard is sort of part of this. So I actually think. But I mean, you know, we know this from, like, many places in the world throughout history. Like, like, you know, once you get, like, government agents shooting civilians, that actually does not tap down on protests like that actually, like, you know, is traditionally the way which protests kind of, like spread. You know, like, you just look at the American Revolution, like, you know, like. Like when the British Soldiers started to kill Americans on the street. I actually think that, you know, the more likely out, maybe the intention is to strike fear, the intention is to push back against this wave of actual resistance that they've been meeting. I don't actually think that's going to be the, the impact. Some people will be scared, some people will stay home. But I actually, you know, suspect that a lot more people are going to be coming out there and then it becomes an issue, you know, like it's playing out on the streets. And I think the real danger or the real question here is like, where are the Democrats? Well, I was just going to ask.

[Sam Cedar]

That, like, does it matter? Like, I mean like, you know, Chuck Schumer is adamant that there's not going to be a government shutdown. Chris Murphy has sort of like introduced now this idea of DHS reform as contingent upon it, which is a, you know, over the course of whatever it is, two years, Chris Murphy has basically just exactly followed public sentiment in this regard. I mean it's a total turnaround. Great. You know, I don't care how sincere it is as long as, as long.

[Jeet Heer]

As you're running for president.

[Sam Cedar]

Yeah, I think it's a good thing that somebody run for president on the dental Democratic side thinks that this is a good thing to do.

[Jeet Heer]

Yeah.

[Sam Cedar]

But like how important is it that the Democrats basically signal to the American public we're not going to fund this, like, we're just not going to fund it?

[Jeet Heer]

I think it's actually like really important because I think there's two structures that are upholding this sort of authoritarian, authoritarianism. One is like, you know, this sort of fascist movement of MAGA that wants to impose it. And the other is the fact that the, you know, the Democrats have not really done anything to push back on it and there's never been, you know, like going back to the crimes that the Bush administration did and Trump did in his first term, there's been like a real reluctance to punish the higher up leaders. You know, I'm not with the January 6th, like crowd like the higher up people. I think like if the Democrats made clear that like there's gonna be a political price to pay like for this, you know, like the, Trump is like they're currently like covering up the murder that happened in Minneapolis. They're, they're not allowing an investigation but you know, like if the, it's actually very essential like to actually get any sort of change that the Democrats make quite clear, like, you know, like there will be a price to pay and that we're not going to have a situation where people that have been involved with murder and torture get to, like, you know, go home. You know, like, I think that that is the crucial part of the political equation that we have not seen yet. We're seeing signs of it, as you mentioned with Murphy, but that has to be there. Like, that's. That's the only off ramp from. From this, like, you know, like, really from the death of American democracy.

[Brian]

But you can also do that by, I don't know, changing up the news cycle and calling for a vote on a change of leader in the Senate. Like, I know that they're in the midst of these negotiations, but, I mean, this is a way to show responsiveness if Democrats choose to do it. I understand that there's this coalition building. They call themselves the Fight Club, unfortunately, in the Senate, but it is the best senators that we have.

[Matt Leck]

If it ends like Fight Club, I'll be more interested.

[Brian]

Bernie, Warren, Van Hollen, and I think Murphy's a part of that. Right. As well. They've got to take this fight public. The fact that they are so afraid of broadcasting internal disagreement is a part of the problem here, because if you show that the fight is happening, you get the base on board to excommunicate essentially the people who aren't on board with the fight. And so I'm not sure really what they're waiting for, because Schumer's as weak as it could. Pot as he could possibly be right now.

[Jeet Heer]

Yeah, yeah. I mean, like, things do seem to be coming to a boiling point where, you know, you have, like, both a gangster empire abroad, you know, like, blowing up these ships, doing kidnapping, boasting that they're doing this for the oil, and also a, you know, gangster empire at home, you know, murdering American citizens. And then you put over Chuck Schumer as your public face and Hakeem Jeffries, who are, like, the most reluctant members of your party to actually say anything meaningful. I don't see how that's a really a tenable situation at all. And I think, like, you know, I mean, that is the weakest link. That is what is holding back, you know, the necessary creation of a political coalition, because there's a certain chunk of the population that does actually attend to leadership leaders. They're Democrats who, like, if you had a leader that was saying, like, these are war crimes that they have to stop, they would shift on that, or is saying, like, we have to abolish ICE, we'll shift on that. And you can go from 42% to, like, 55%, 60%.

[Sam Cedar]

And let's be clear, you know, in 11 months, essentially, the Trump regime was able to accomplish about half of what they had in Project 2025. Yeah, they have the funding now in terms of ICE. They've, they have set the precedent of their ability to avoid appropriating funds or expending funds that have been appropriated. The idea that in 11 months from now, things are still going to be sort of container, I mean, that's their bet, right? That's Schumer and Jeffrey's bet is that, well, there's going to be strum and Drang and. But, but come November 7, people are going to vote out those Republicans and it's all going to be fine. I'm sure, you know, Trump will try and do some dastardly things, but the elections will go off without a hitch and Mike Johnson will seat those new members and everything will be fine. I mean, they're betting. This is like, you know, this is the stuff that you look back in history books and go, this is where they made the mistake. You had a leadership that was just believing that the ship feels like it's going to hold together. I think we're going to be fine. There's big waves, but, you know, it'll be fine. Meanwhile, like, they're just headed into this, like, massive storm and have no clue whatsoever.

[Jeet Heer]

Yeah, I mean, Chuck Schumer, I saw an interview with him, like, just like a week ago. He was, he was talking about how, like, he's talking to a lot of Republicans who are privately very concerned about what Trump is doing. You know, they won't say anything publicly, but, but, but they have, you know, in the, in the Senate gym, there's a lot of anxiety and it's like, like, what sort of politics is this? Is that the politics is that meaningful in any way?

[Sam Cedar]

And how many times do they need to say that and not do anything for you to realize, like, this time's not going to be different. It's just, it's stunning. But Jeet here, I imagine we'll have this conversation. Yeah, well, many more times this year. Hopefully we will finish them on a more positive and hopeful perspective. But people have got to push the Democrats. There's a lot of other things they got to do, too.

[Jeet Heer]

If you wanted the optimistic note to end on, I imagine, like, if you look at, like, what Normie average Democrats are right now, like, they're not. They're far more radical than they were in 2018 and even 2020, like, I actually think, like, it's a real question of, like, at what point does the party start to listen to its base or at what point does, you know, the base, like, try to overthrow the leadership of the party? But, like, I actually do think there's a lot of potential there.

[Brian]

Yep.

[Sam Cedar]

From your mouth. Jeet here, national affairs correspondent at the Nation and also the proprietor of the YouTube channel Cultural Logic. And we will put a link to both in the podcast and YouTube description. Jeet here. Thanks so much.

[Jeet Heer]

Oh, thanks for. It's always a great pleasure to be on this program.

[Sam Cedar]

Thanks, Jeet.

[Brian]

Thanks, Jeet.

[Sam Cedar]

Freebie Friday. Should we do a freebie Friday?

[Brian]

Sure.

[Sam Cedar]

First one of the year. First freebie. Yeah. Look at Brian says. Brian says, why not the drug dealer code, Right? First one's free. Yeah.

[Brian]

How would you know that?

[Sam Cedar]

I'm very invested in this. Maduro.

[Brian]

Okay, gotcha. Deep, deep, deep undercover.

[Sam Cedar]

All right. We're going to take a slight break, though, just so that people can gather themselves and then we'll be back. Just a reminder, it's your support that makes this show possible. You can become a member. Join the majorityreport.com join themjorityreport.com Today's a freebie Friday, but if you want the membership free of commercials, join themjorityreport.com also just Coffee Co op, fair trade coffee. Use the coupon code. Majority get 10% off of one of their blends or the majority report blend. Matt, what's happening on in the Matt Leck podcast universe?

[Matt Leck]

Yeah, New Jackman show this morning went up with Ryan Grimm of Dropsite talking about we were going to talk about Venezuela and then a woman got a mother got assassinated in Minneapolis. So we talked about that as well and talked about Zoran. So check that out. That was up this morning.

[Sam Cedar]

We're going to take quick break. We'll be back with the fun half. Freebie Friday. Sam. It.

[Jeet Heer]

Ram.

[Matt Leck]

It.

[Sam Cedar]

Jordy PD, PhD said no fun half song for freebie Friday. These guys, they freaked out when I said freebie Friday. But let's take a break.

[Matt Leck]

It's like it's a fun half song. I mean, we didn't go to the fun half.

[Sam Cedar]

We go into the fun, have a freebie.

[Brian]

Freebies.

[Sam Cedar]

You said quick break, which made me think it was something different.

[Matt Leck]

Yeah, no, it was unclear direction.

[Sam Cedar]

People freaked out here.

[Brian]

Turns out it was your fault, Sam.

[Sam Cedar]

Yeah, it's always Sam's fault. Sam's fault.

[Matt Leck]

It's weird though. People point to the top of the hierarchy.

[Sam Cedar]

Yeah.

[Matt Leck]

You wanted to see this Brian Andrews, a conservative.

[Sam Cedar]

It's my job to send the blame back down the line.

[Matt Leck]

Shit rolls downhill or flows down. I don't think this is on the street.

[Sam Cedar]

Let's.

[Matt Leck]

Oh, this is. This country singer Brian.

[Sam Cedar]

Oh, yeah. Let's check this out. This is awesome. I'm not. I'm not familiar with country music that much. I mean, let's be honest. I'm not familiar with any music that very much.

[Brian]

I'm so unfamiliar with country music music, though. I really know nothing. I mean, I know that there's that. That racist kid that, you know, whatever, the SNL guy. He's Big Morgan Wallen. Yeah, that's probably the only name I could. Oh, the guy that's good is Chris Stapleton. And those are the. Probably the two names I can mention.

[Sam Cedar]

I have to say. Yeah, my knowledge of country music is like my knowledge of just about every other music. Like Dwight Yoakum. Is he still popular? I like Garth Brooks last year.

[Jeet Heer]

He's popular.

[Sam Cedar]

Popular with me. Okay, so Dwight Yocum, like, that was like Alan Jackson, Hank Williams. I mean, like, I. There. It's been a minute. It's been a minute for 90s country music. Well, Yoko was not. Yeah, Hank Williams.

[Brian]

I mean, Johnny Cash counts, right?

[Jeet Heer]

Yeah.

[Sam Cedar]

I mean, I was huge. Huge crossover, though. But Dwight Yoakum was like the 80s and 90s, like, early 90s crossover country guy.

[Brian]

All I know is, like, the worst people I went to high school with, even though in New Jersey, like to dress up in outfits and go to see country music. And it's just.

[Matt Leck]

It's funny to see people in coastal areas top that style in the last, like, five years, maybe.

[Sam Cedar]

Yep, there's always some of that, but they're all white. But Brian Hendrix, apparently pretty big country music star, and here he is on a tick tock message. Oh, yeah, you already knew this one was coming. You know, people always come on here and be like, brian, why are you always yelling in these videos? It's not that serious. You want to know why I'm yelling? I'll tell you why the I'm yelling. I'm yelling because I just watched a federal agent shoot a woman in the face in broad daylight with witnesses. You don't do that unless you already knew you were gonna get away with it and you want to tell me it's not that serious. How many times are we going to walk past the bodies? Like, if we don't look, they're not there. Listen to me. Donald Trump said once, I could stand in the middle of Fifth Avenue and shoot someone and not lose any voters. Okay, that is a direct quote. And you know what? He just indirectly proved it to be true. I am begging you to wake up at this point. You saw the same video I did, and I need you to know that you are not a bad person. If this is where you draw the line. I mean, for sake, man. People tell me all the time, why don't you just keep politics out of your music, okay? What would you rather me do? Come on the Internet? Like, I didn't just see with my own two eyes what I saw yesterday and be like, hey, guys, here's my new breakup song. Yeah, I'll take that for 500, Alex. I got a better idea. I see the comments. I see the videos they make. I hear what even some people in my hometown say about me. Oh, that dude only makes these videos to sell his music. I make this music to sell this message. And that message is this. I'm gonna shove this song so far down your throat, you're gonna have to drop your pants and take a. Just to get it out of your system. I'm gonna make so many videos to this song that the guitars in this make you feel the rage that we felt when we wrote this. I'm gonna make you hear this tagline so goddamn much that by the time I release it, even Jimmy Kimmel's tired of hearing it. Because maybe then, just maybe then even you might stop to ask yourself.

[Brian]

I mean, righteous.

[Sam Cedar]

Yep.

[Brian]

That rock.

[Matt Leck]

I love the idea of. Yeah, I don't. I'm not doing this to sell music. I'm selling music to do this.

[Sam Cedar]

Yeah, exactly. That's awesome.

[Matt Leck]

If only there was a lot more people with that, their head and their shoulder. So straight.

[Sam Cedar]

Let's talk. Let's get to Chuck Schumer. I mean, the Chuck Schumer is in. Understand what Modi's in right now. Chuck Schumer is in his classic mode, which is, I want there to be enough problems with Trump, but not so much that it actually comes to me. This is Schumer's bigger. Exactly. This is like Chuck Schumer's. Like, Chuck Schumer. Chuck Schumer is like the guy or the kid who's playing baseball, and in sitting out in the field, and he is just sitting there going, please don't hit the ball to me. Please don't hit the ball. Please don't hit the ball to me. Please don't hit the ball to me. That's what this. That's what Chuck Schumer is doing. And the problem is, is that, like, you're the only person in the field. Like, the ball. If the ball's hit, it's. You've got to deal with it. And he. He so desperately, like, Chuck Schumer went to bed every night for the past five, six weeks saying, please let there be no controversy until we get to this government shutdown vote. Please let there be no controversy until we get there. I don't want to be forced to actually exercise any of the leverage we have.

[Brian]

Yep.

[Sam Cedar]

Now, the House just passed an appropriations bill. Instead of doing it, like, in one big reconciliation thing, because they want to avoid that, they passed a reconciliation. They passed partial appropriations for, like, I think it was like the epa, Interior, a couple of other agencies, more or less. There's definitely some cuts, but more or less, you know, the equivalent of a.

[Brian]

Continuing resolution rejecting Trump's calls for more steep cuts.

[Sam Cedar]

And in. And. But there still remains all the tricky things where the Democrats might have some disagreement with the Republicans, particularly dhs.

[Brian]

DHS is not in. This is not Department of Homeland Security, AKA ice, obviously not in this agreement.

[Sam Cedar]

And so you have the President of the United States just essentially, you know, kidnapping a. Another leader of a different country so that we could move the oil executives in and get their resources, which, of course, I think, like, you know, Schumer was like, well, it's not the way I would do it, but. But we have now DHS shooting people dead. You have one tool at your disposal to actually do anything, and that is, we're gonna cut the funding.

[Brian]

Yep.

[Sam Cedar]

Remember, DHS is getting hundreds of billions of dollars. They are going to be the wealthiest police force in the world.

[Brian]

The. Yeah. ICE is the largest law enforcement agency by budget in the world, including in the United States.

[Sam Cedar]

They're bigger than some militaries. And he has the opportunity. And what does he do? We have now seen this video over and over again. Right. And we have. There's a contention on one hand, the Trump administration has told a total pack of lies based upon video that we can see. And on the other hand, Chuck Schumer says.

[Jeet Heer]

Do you have any comment on the.

[Sam Cedar]

Shooting in Minnesota as ICE involved shooting? Well, I saw the video. It just turns your stomach.

[Tony Dokoupil]

We need a quick and full investigation to get to the bottom of this.

[Sam Cedar]

But when you have these ICE agents all over the streets of our cities, without any cooperation with local law enforcement, local communities, tragedies, horrible tragedies.

[Tony Dokoupil]

Killings occur.

[Sam Cedar]

Wait, wait, wait. We need to get to the bottom of this. Where's the mystery? What's the mystery here. What is the mystery that we need to get to the bottom of? And what is he talking about? Tragedies when you don't have cooperation. So wait, he has a problem with New York City being a sanctuary city? Like, what?

[Brian]

What is law?

[Sam Cedar]

Is this a problem of a lack of cooperation?

[Brian]

Wow.

[Sam Cedar]

From Minneapolis pd If they had cooperated. What? Like, what the hell is he saying? Is he not aware that there is a paramilitary? 2100 paramilitary fighters have been dropped into Minneapolis, a city of what, 450,000 people who are masked and seemingly have no accountability to anyone. And the problem is there's a lack of cooperation from what.

[Brian]

He. I mean, can we play it again? Actually, I'm sorry, I just want to get the passive language down here.

[Jeet Heer]

Do you have any comment on the shooting in Minnesota? Shooting?

[Sam Cedar]

Well, I saw the video.

[Tony Dokoupil]

It just turns your stomach. We need a quick and full investigation to get to the bottom of this.

[Sam Cedar]

But when you have these ICE agents all over the streets of our cities, without any cooperation with local law enforcement, local communities, tragedies, horrible tragedies. Killings occur, occur.

[Brian]

You know what? You know, it's not a coincidence that he sounds exactly like some sort of Israeli official describing a child being killed in the West Bank.

[Sam Cedar]

It took no time for this to.

[Matt Leck]

Come back to us. I mean, Tanizi Coates put this up. Brian. Tanizi Coates statement at the start of this. We are at a moment right now where people are asking themselves, why can't the Democratic Party defend against this assault on democracy? And I would submit that if you can't draw the line at genocide, you probably can't draw the line at democracy.

[Brian]

You can't, you can't.

[Matt Leck]

And Chuck Schumer will never be able to.

[Brian]

And I mean, that's unbelievable. Lack of cooperation with local law enforcement. He's basically criticizing the city of Minneapolis and leadership there as well for essentially saying that cops should be more coordinating with ice. That's the problem here, not the fact that they are functionally, as AOC said. We played this in the fun half yesterday. They are a paramilitary force. To your point, that is an anti civilian force at this point. They shouldn't be cooperating with local law enforcement. Schumer should be empowering through his rhetoric, local law enforcement to go after I arrest them. His national, his messaging. I mean, like. And I just want to emphasize this point in case people are just watching this clip and didn't see our interview with Jeet here. Elizabeth Warren is standing right next to him. She's a part of that so called fight club that's in the Democratic Party right now in the Senate that supposedly is building up an alternative vision of leadership for the Democrats. The time is now. The time is now to call for his ouster. I know they're probably still building up the power that they need. They're still trying to get other senators on board. But my God, Republicans make a spectacle about their internal disagreement and it has affected them. Nada, electorally. Nothing.

[Sam Cedar]

In fact, it looks like democracy.

[Brian]

In fact, it looks like democracy. It's a performance of it. You get yourself in the news cycle, Trump specifically sparring with other Republicans. They've rode that to success. Air this disagreement out publicly because it looks like you're responding to the overwhelming base that wants you to rein in these lawless thugs. The numbers on this are staggering. An over 20 point increase in abolishing ICE in less than a year. And that's what the leader of the Democrats saying. The problem is that local law enforcement isn't collaborating with ice. So change the news cycle and show that you'll be an opposition party. Call for his ouster. I'm sorry if it's awkward in the meetings. I'm sorry if it's not the right time because we still have the partial budget negotiations over the appropriations. Actually, it might be the best time.

[Sam Cedar]

Well, that's the thing, is he wants to ignore the existence of what is happening because he has the ability to wage a fight to prevent the funding of dhs. I mean, yes, he has the ability to do this and he doesn't want wanted. He is running away from any leverage he has deliberately. And so, you know, we've got to be measured about this. We've, we've got to be. They have literally understand, they did not shoot this person because they thought this person was a criminal undocumented immigrant. They did not shoot this person because they thought this person was, was an undocumented immigrant. They, they did not shoot this person. They shot this person because they saw this person as a citizen who was pushing back against what they were doing. Yeah, that means that. And they can take these steps. They've killed undocumented immigrants in their facilities. Yeah, we know that. They are just moving down the line. Anybody who gets in their way is going to face either being just scooped up, detained, shot, beaten, whatever it is, this is going on and he is trying to hide from it. Does he have a problem with. Here's Philadelphia DA Larry Krasner. Now, if Chuck Schumer says the problem is not enough cooperation from local law Enforcement. Does he have a problem with Krassner saying here, if any law enforcement agent, any ICE agent is going to come to Philly.

[Tony Dokoupil]

To commit crimes, then you.

[Sam Cedar]

Can get the F out of here? Because if you do that here, I.

[Tony Dokoupil]

Will charge you with those crimes.

[Sam Cedar]

You will be arrested, you will stand true trial. You will be convicted, whether it's in state or federal court. It's my office prosecuting it. That's how the law works. And you will do your time because Donald Trump cannot pardon you for a state court conviction. Do you hear me, ICE agents? Do you hear me, National Guard? Do you hear me, Military? You're going to jail. If you commit crimes in the city of Philadelphia, you will be accountable. The law applies to all of you. And I know that there are honest, decent, moral law enforcement officers out there by the bushel, including in ice. This is not for you.

[Tony Dokoupil]

This is for any one of your.

[Sam Cedar]

Colleagues, thugs who thinks they are above the law. Understand that what that does.

[Brian]

Yep.

[Sam Cedar]

In the same way that these ICE thugs shooting a defenseless woman in the face puts a chill and scares other protesters or is meant to scare other protesters, what that does is say there's accountability here that none of your bosses can save you from. Now Chuck Schumer has the opportunity to say this type of thing, too. If Chuck Schumer thinks in his mind that, well, we're going to take the House, maybe we'll take the Senate in the fall, you then have the ability, Zim, putting aside his ability to shove a wrench in the gears of appropriations and money going to fund this, he has the ability to say, think twice. Because the day after we get sworn into office, we're going to haul your bosses up and we'll haul individual agents in front of Congress.

[Brian]

Yeah.

[Sam Cedar]

And we will. We will pass laws and we will hold you accountable. And it may take three years from now, maybe it'll take six months, you know, a year from now, but you will go to jail. There will be no forgiveness. There will be no forgetting here.

[Brian]

But the focus on the midterms. It's hard for me to know if it's an idea, if you're working backwards from your ideological predispositions to say that the midterms are the thing that you're focused on, or if you're genuinely convinced that standing up for your neighbors and immigrant communities is going to impact the midterms. Either way, the focus is so wrong, outdated, and has led us to this moment of fascism. You know, when I had that debate on MSNBC with. With Katherine Rampel and the other guest that was like a centrist Republican or centrist Democrat or something like that. They were saying like, well, you have to focus on winning. How can you win in West Virginia without a Joe Manchin? Would you rather have a Republican in that seat? And my answer was that, well, if the Democrats had a different focus and it was more about delivering as opposed to winning, governing. Winning and governing. Like the way Zoran's doing it, winning, not just winning elections, grinning, hoping the ball isn't hit to us so that we can just white knuckle it until the midterms in 2026, then perhaps we wouldn't have this back and forth. We could have like actual sustained control over Congress and actually wield power. But what I really do think is, is that at this point it's, it really is ideological for Schumer.

[Matt Leck]

He's a passive income politics. He just wants to benefit passively from all this stuff.

[Sam Cedar]

He.

[Brian]

When, when it just really hit me when you see Zoram Mamdani go out on CNN and MSNBC and explain to people what sanctuary city policies are. For so long it's been used as a, like, you hear it exclusively on the right where they talk about it as like liberals being soft on crime in cities and all of that. We could have had a pushback Democratic national messaging campaign that would have empowered attorneys general and mayors across the country to make sure that the worst of this stuff was curbed a little bit. Because there have been no national Democrats that have explained that sanctuary city laws are legally binding. It's about protecting citizens, common sense and local officials standing up and saying, if you don't have a legal judicial warrant signed by a judge, you don't get to enter this space. And that's on the books. Why couldn't we have had national Democrats saying this? Why? Because Chuck Schumer doesn't believe in those sanctuary city laws. He just said it right there.

[Matt Leck]

Collaborated.

[Brian]

He just said that he doesn't believe that there needs to be more collaboration with ice. That's his problem with it. So that's essentially saying like, you don't want to protect people. And that's part of the problem here.

[Sam Cedar]

I mean, almost the whole problem.

[Brian]

It's the whole problem and it should.

[Matt Leck]

Have been dealt with years ago. And the go back 2016, people like, oh, Chuck Schumer's going against Obama on the Iran deal. Is that going to hurt his political future? No, it cemented it. And we have. And Democrats need to address why that happened.

[Brian]

Yeah.

[Sam Cedar]

Roger from Ohio. I think Chuck Schumer is secretly a Republican. Bavarian fish tacos. Don't know if you saw body cam footage from Minneapolis ICE agent who summarily executed poor Renee Good somehow and totally unexpectedly showed up on an alt right neo Nazi website and is now circulating on larger Internet. Feel free to verify, but it's popped up in my socials twice now. Cole from Little Rock. If the guy who murdered a girl on camera has no accountability, as I can already see with the case, you can believe that we'll be seeing more free use of deadly force. The guy threatening them with actual consequences is the only thing that will dissuade ICE agents at this point.

[Jeet Heer]

Point.

[Matt Leck]

And you need to hear more from like Jacob Fry. Like the saying the F word. Get the fuck out of us. You need to follow it up with we are going to use political authority in our office to prosecute you.

[Sam Cedar]

Yeah, I'm not. So, like, saying F you is not as effective as a jail. Very politely saying you're. You're going to face trial and you're going to go to jail and we will arrest you, sir.

[Brian]

Yeah, that was annoying. Oh, there was another thing. Shoot.

[Sam Cedar]

Let's look at some of what's going on with the Minneapolis protests. It's number five. It's a DHS cop. They don't really care. This is it looks like it's at like a. I don't know what this facility is. It almost looks like it's. I guess it's at some type of federal building, but. Federal building or a staging site, something like that. Really? You punk. That's what you're gonna do. What?

[Jeet Heer]

What?

[Sam Cedar]

What?

[Jeet Heer]

What do you know?

[Sam Cedar]

What the fuck is that? It's for. What is that for?

[Tony Dokoupil]

What is that for?

[Sam Cedar]

Back up. What is that for? You're gonna push me.

[Tony Dokoupil]

What is that for?

[Jeet Heer]

Back up.

[Sam Cedar]

What was that for? You don't give a About her. This is why we're here. This is why we're here.

[Jeet Heer]

Really.

[Sam Cedar]

There's obviously like vigils.

[Matt Leck]

There's a mural for Renee.

[Brian]

Big tough guy.

[Matt Leck]

I mean, just look at him.

[Sam Cedar]

He kicks toddler.

[Brian]

I know.

[Matt Leck]

He looks like a big giant baby.

[Brian]

Yeah, he looks like he's failing at hopscotch on the ground.

[Matt Leck]

Look at this guy. He just learned how to walk. I know.

[Brian]

Center of gravity is a little off.

[Matt Leck]

Not quite potty trained yet.

[Sam Cedar]

Let's do number six. This is protest. Protesters. Another. Like, these guys feel like they have impunity. I mean, first of all, like just. Just even put the still up and look like the way these guys are dressed, they are in full military gear. They all have like what now look like government issued masks, they have canisters. I mean, these people are like, they would be no different if they were sent into a war zone with people with weapons firing at them. And watch what they do here. Shoot some point blank in the face with a huge. Kill someone else. Arrest that guy. Tell someone else.

[Brian]

I just like, I mean, can you imagine the fear that that guy must have had in that split second not knowing what that munition was? I mean, just seeing that guy's face, I just am like, oh my God. I mean, he could have thought, I'm in that split second, I'm about to die.

[Matt Leck]

Arrest these people. And if that causes a constitutional crisis with the government, it's time to have the crisis. Now.

[Sam Cedar]

This video, I've seen this video in two different, two different ways. This, this video was taken of an Uber driver who was stopped and harassed at the Minneapolis airport. Bovino is there. I've seen the actual Uber drivers video as well. This guy is, he's great. This is, was shot, I believe by freedomnews.tv. i don't know, maybe we should find the other angle because I don't know.

[Brian]

No, this is a good angle. I watch this. Yeah.

[Sam Cedar]

All right, well, this is on. We're taking this from X where it was posted.

[Jeet Heer]

Working.

[Sam Cedar]

You know, I've been here. This is an Uber waiting lot. We're literally working. You know, I've been here. Criminals doing Uber. Oh, yeah, that's not how it works. But maybe criminals are doing ice. How about that? You know what I'm saying? You guys shooting at people, man? Somebody just got shot. For what? Why did you guys shoot that lady? Answer me that. There's an officer today that shot a lady in the head.

[Matt Leck]

Dude.

[Tony Dokoupil]

Really?

[Jeet Heer]

For what?

[Sam Cedar]

I don't know why they do the head, man. You got all these stuff. You could have just got her, man. They're all, they're, they're, they're laughing about that.

[Matt Leck]

Pavino. Yeah, it's Pavino right there, the bad guy.

[Sam Cedar]

Incidentally, they're coming up to harass this guy. The guy knows his rights. He's not backing down. He had asked them at one point, why are you coming here? Because I got an accent.

[Jeet Heer]

No, no, it starts with the officer.

[Sam Cedar]

Saying, I'm talking to you because you have an accent. Yeah, that's how it starts.

[Brian]

I'm sure, I'm sure that's why. Just the accent.

[Matt Leck]

Yeah.

[Brian]

How'd they know?

[Matt Leck]

Skin colored?

[Jeet Heer]

Yeah. No, he says you don't look like me.

[Sam Cedar]

And you have a different accent for me.

[Brian]

Yeah. Which one came first?

[Sam Cedar]

Two random people. Mighty. You want to steal my identity? Where's your id? Let me check if you're a US Citizen. How about that? Hey, you guys better move on, man. Look at this. A4. What kind of name is that? What's your initial? It ain't over there. Why would I answer you? Can we just step back?

[Matt Leck]

We have, what, a dozen feds, around.

[Sam Cedar]

12 guys sitting around here and there. And incidentally, they stay and engage this guy because they know they're getting embarrassed now, and they don't know really what to do. They know they can't just turn around and walk away because then they seem like they're weak. But so they're all just standing around and this guy's just like, you know, talking circles around them and dressing them down and embarrassing them, which is exactly what you should do. If you have the ability. If you have the ability to mock these people to their faces on video, do it. If you have the privilege of. And again, like, obviously we've seen these people will draw on you and they will fire at you. But it certainly helps. And if you see somebody who's in a confrontation with ice, things with ICE people going and going over there, and videotaping provides security for that person. Why would I not be a citizen of this country, man? Are you? Are you? Are you? Are you? Are you a citizen? Why are you close? I can hear you. You can stand there. How come she got a GoPro and you got your boy? Police issued a body cap? What's going on with you guys? Why do I have this dude? Listen, I'm here working. You're working too, right? So go. It says U.S. border Patrol. This is not the border. Go to the Canada border or the Mexican border. If you were from this country. If you were from this country. What do you mean, if I'm from this country?

[Jeet Heer]

I could hear.

[Sam Cedar]

You don't have the same accent as me.

[Matt Leck]

That's why I'm.

[Sam Cedar]

Oh, so you're going by accents now? I want to word.

[Tony Dokoupil]

Where were you born?

[Sam Cedar]

Is there accents? Have you.

[Jeet Heer]

Have you heard the Israeli accent?

[Sam Cedar]

Have you heard the European accent? You just proved your point.

[Jeet Heer]

You're a br.

[Brian]

You just proved my point.

[Sam Cedar]

You going by accent? You just proved other countries that. You guys going to argue? I got time. I got time today.

[Tony Dokoupil]

I'm not arguing.

[Brian]

You're proving my point.

[Sam Cedar]

You guys do whatever you want to do. Where's your id, Sir? I'm not going to show you.

[Jeet Heer]

I don't have to show you anything.

[Sam Cedar]

If a police officer comes here, I, I'll comply with it. But U.S. border Patrol, I don't even know if you're a real police officer. Where's your ID? But you just said, where's your ID? And I'm not gonna go by C2.0.

[Matt Leck]

I mean this, by your logic type bullshit from this fascist.

[Sam Cedar]

Exactly.

[Brian]

I mean, this, this is why these guys hide behind, you know, Twitter or 4chan or whatever they're on. I know that they now hide behind their masks because they like, want to dress up like they're law enforcement, but.

[Matt Leck]

Everybody who supports this shit has an anime profile picture. No one's putting their actual face to face this shit.

[Brian]

Oh, no. Well, I mean, that's why they hide their faces here because they're trying to hide from the consequences. But. Like that. But, but you see how a. Nor like a real law enforcement officer wouldn't be engaging like this. These are just basically members of the MAGA base that have been called from, culled from the, you know, the far right base who signed up for this kind of thing. And they talk like it.

[Matt Leck]

And I mean, this has been going on for a long time of Nazis, white supremacists infiltrating all these law enforcement agencies, even beyond ice. I mean, there's talk of it in the 70s.

[Sam Cedar]

Let's go to the. What is the Minnesota. What is the name of the.

[Brian]

The Timberwolves Target Center.

[Sam Cedar]

The Target Center.

[Jeet Heer]

Oh.

[Sam Cedar]

You know, look, people know where my sympathies lie when it comes to the Tim Wolves and the Celtics whatnot. That's not important. They developed Kevin Garnett for us. That's true.

[Matt Leck]

And Luca Garza.

[Sam Cedar]

I'm not such a Luca Garza fan.

[Brian]

I mean, look, I root for Minnesota teams in general because you guys have had it really rough.

[Matt Leck]

I mean, yeah, it's been since Kirby Puckett in the 90s.

[Brian]

No Super Bowl.

[Matt Leck]

I guess the links got one.

[Brian]

Yeah. At least link Scott.

[Sam Cedar]

One.

[Jeet Heer]

What'd you say, just dismantle the Vikings?

[Sam Cedar]

Nevertheless. Nevertheless. Good on Timberwolves fans and the. The Timberwolves organization. Here's a shot from that target center.

[Matt Leck]

Easy for this challenge for folks saying. They're saying, we're going to do a moment of silence for this challenging time. And the. The newsworthy bit comes here after. In the moment of silence.

[Brian]

Please join us in the moment of silence.

[Matt Leck]

Way more appropriate than a moment.

[Sam Cedar]

Way more appropriate.

[Brian]

Amazing.

[Sam Cedar]

Also a moment of silence for this difficult time.

[Matt Leck]

Yeah.

[Brian]

I know, but I mean, sounds like John Mulaney's statement about why he had to cancel those shows. What a coward. But. But. I mean, of course that's what they're going to say. But the. But people. How communities are responding. It should be that energy should be taken by any competent opposition party and packaged into an opposition on the national level. But all we have right now is local leadership and Vichy collaboration and some. Some progressives leading the way on messaging.

[Sam Cedar]

At least let's look at some of the other areas where our society is decomposing. Oh, let's just do. Tony. To do.

[Brian]

Oh, yeah, Tony, two cuts.

[Sam Cedar]

Okay, this is a little bit.

[Matt Leck]

100,000 views on that one.

[Sam Cedar]

There is. There is. I have friends who work in the building where CBS News works, and I am told.

[Brian]

Fancy schmancy.

[Sam Cedar]

Is it a wework? It is not a wework. I have friends in that building. And I spoke to one of those friends this morning, and he or she said to me that in conversations that they have had with in particular the union guys who have worked in that building for decades. And this person said to me, you know, one of the things that's really surprised me is how invested these union guys who work, like, you know, they work the cameras, they work the lights, they work the sort of the physical plant. They don't, you know, they're not producers of the show, but they work, you know, their crew keep the lights on. And he said, or she said that they were surprised at how, like, emotionally invested they were in CBS News.

[Brian]

Yeah.

[Sam Cedar]

As like, that they had been working there for decades and they took pride in the lineage of like, of. Of Cronkite and so on. And like, the idea that, like, this is important. And they're just like, we cannot believe this.

[Brian]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Sam Cedar]

Specifically talking about, like, the. The town hall with Eric, like, why is she there? And. But that everybody, everybody in that building is like, it. All you need to do is just say one word about what's happening there. And people are just like, pouring their hearts out about how disillusioned they are about what's going on in that building. And it is like, reached peak embarrassment for CBS News people because of garbage like this.

[Brian]

He's not in the studio here. Right. You know, he's doing a tour of America where he's showing up. It's like magic. One day he's in one place, in the other day he's in another.

[Sam Cedar]

People do that. It's really what he's like saying now. It's all part of, like, this we're getting out into the real America.

[Brian]

But it's weird that they're emphasizing it as if every news broadcast doesn't do something similar, but, okay.

[Sam Cedar]

And here he is talking about, like, understand what's going on here. To have this paramilitary force purposefully shooting an innocent person like there was nothing to charge her with. There's no. There's no. Like. Well, the. Like this clearly. Never mind the first shot. The second and third shots. I mean, he's shooting into the side of the window. They're not supposed to be drawing their guns at all. They have no authority when it comes to U.S. citizens. And this is the way that. And it's not just obviously a joke, a pill. I mean, I'm sure he knows what he's supposed to do to get his treat from his master. And, you know, maybe he's writing this stuff himself. I mean, who knows?

[Brian]

But it sounds like if you were to ask AI, what would Barry Weiss write about this murder of Renee Good, this is what it would sound like. And it's just like they put it in and had him recite it.

[Tony Dokoupil]

There is so much to say about the last 24 hours. But sometimes what matters most is what is yet to be said at all and what we all still need to hear. By now, we've all seen the videos. Renee Goode is alive in those videos, behind the wheel of her suv, her three children expecting mom home again soon. And we've seen the freeze frames, too. We've heard the political warfare, the clashing declarations about what happened. And unfortunately, we know the ending for Renee Good. Nothing is going to change that.

[Brian]

Can you pause it for a second and just pause. Okay, so this is a minute and a half of monologue, first 30 seconds. This is the first third of it has been. Essentially, this woman was killed, and you've seen video of it. And as a reminder, she's still dead.

[Matt Leck]

And it was a land of contrast.

[Brian]

And Wait, what's this news?

[Sam Cedar]

What was the first couple of sentences like? I want to really, like, hold him to this.

[Brian]

Yes.

[Sam Cedar]

Alive.

[Jeet Heer]

And then.

[Sam Cedar]

No, no, no. The part about. We've heard a lot of things, but sometimes what's most important is what we haven't heard. We could say a lot of things we need to hear is what we need to hear. Well, stop and say. Okay, good.

[Tony Dokoupil]

There is so much to say about the last 24 hours. But sometimes what matters most is what is yet to be said at all and what we all still need to hear. By now, we've all seen Renee, go.

[Sam Cedar]

What we all need to hear. Because I want to just, like, track this. What we all need to hear.

[Brian]

Yeah.

[Sam Cedar]

Need to hear.

[Matt Leck]

I'm getting AI from this.

[Brian]

That's what I just said. Yeah, yeah.

[Sam Cedar]

There's so much to say.

[Brian]

Yeah.

[Sam Cedar]

And. But what might be more important is what yet to be said.

[Brian]

Yep. And you know how. Yeah, yeah.

[Sam Cedar]

Incidentally.

[Brian]

Yeah.

[Sam Cedar]

Those are the same things.

[Brian]

Yep. Yep.

[Sam Cedar]

If there's so much to be said.

[Brian]

Yeah.

[Sam Cedar]

That's going to come in the future. And what might be most important is what is yet to be said. So stuff that's going to be said and what we all need to hear, which, incidentally, you cannot hear until it's said. So he's saying that people are going to talk in the future and that might be important.

[Brian]

He's filling time. We talk about on the show about how we have so much news to get to that we can't even wrap our arms around it. And we miss things during the. The day. He's literally filling time to obscure the reality of what happened here. I mean, it sounds like that Connor Roy eulogy that he gave.

[Sam Cedar]

This is.

[Matt Leck]

This is.

[Sam Cedar]

This is very similar. This is like Chuck Schumer's disposition.

[Brian]

Yeah.

[Sam Cedar]

In a slightly sort of like. And then like, with it. With some. A tinge of. Of. Of like seasoning. It's like. I don't want to say anything. However, we have all this obvious shit out there that people are watching. They see the video. And I'm going to just simply acknowledge that you see the video. And I'm going to say there's a lot of stuff that needs to be said about this.

[Brian]

Yeah.

[Sam Cedar]

But I'm not going to be the guy to say.

[Matt Leck]

And I'm going to kind of position myself as above all the people who saw the video and reached a conclusion that this was bad.

[Sam Cedar]

And remember who started his whole, you know, a tenure a couple of days ago by saying we need to hear from the people, not from the experts or the insiders. And then he goes on, and I think it's this.

[Brian]

He does.

[Sam Cedar]

Like, I've heard people on the street, but I've also had people who have my personal phone number and my email address who are obviously people of the street. Right. Go ahead.

[Tony Dokoupil]

There is so much to say about the last 24 hours, but sometimes what matters most is what is yet to be said at all and what we all still need to hear. By now, we've all seen the videos. Renee Good is alive in those videos behind the wheel of her suv, her three Children expecting mom home again soon. And we've seen the freeze frames too. We've heard the political warfare, the clashing declarations about what happened. This is AI and unfortunately we know the ending for Renee. Good. Nothing is going to change that yet. What we have nothing heard is one another.

[Matt Leck]

You could get justice for the guy who murdered her.

[Sam Cedar]

Yeah, but nothing's going to change for her.

[Brian]

But, but, but this is the presentation of both sides. I know that we have more to get to in this insane slop, but like the presentation of both, you may have reached a conclusion emotionally about seeing a woman, a mother, getting shot in the face three times at close range. You may have already made an assumption that that's not what the federal law enforcement should be doing to the citizenry. But I'm going to tell you there's more context here.

[Matt Leck]

Yeah, you're close.

[Brian]

While I'm pretending like I am presenting something fair. Because that is what you're. You are creating space for, for the, the Trump administration, for right wing reactionaries to tell people, don't believe you're lying.

[Tony Dokoupil]

Eyes change that yet. What we have not yet heard is one another. I spoke to people today who haven't slept since it happened, who want ice and out now, who don't like masked men on their streets, don't want their neighbors arrested, don't want families shot in the face. But I've heard too, not on the streets protesting, but in passionate notes in my inbox from people who want to see our immigration laws enforced legally and peacefully and with safety for all, including the officers, who in many cases are also parents themselves. These are both deeply American centered sentiments.

[Sam Cedar]

Pause it for a second.

[Matt Leck]

Oh, fuck.

[Sam Cedar]

How many times do you get to hear whether a murderer is also a parent?

[Matt Leck]

How about those Klansmen that lynched a guy?

[Jeet Heer]

What would.

[Matt Leck]

What were they think?

[Sam Cedar]

You know, look, there's a lot of people I've spoken to on the street who say we should not be racist. However, Emmett Till. Wolf, there are some people who have my email address and they email and they make a pretty good case that their parents too and also want to be racist and don't want their white.

[Matt Leck]

Daughter talked to like by Emmett Till like that.

[Brian]

You know, honestly, I was hesitant about criticizing Hitler for doing a genocide against Jewish people. But then I found out that he hadn't sired any children. And then I realized that it's okay to criticize him now because he's not a father and I won't be hurting their feelings permanently.

[Sam Cedar]

Put the filter on my email box do not take any emails from Hitler.

[Matt Leck]

So advice to those people who send him emails is stay in the shadows.

[Tony Dokoupil]

Eagerly and peacefully and with safety for all, including the officers, who in many cases are also parents themselves. These are both deeply American sentiments. But our job now is maybe the most American thing of all. It's to find a way to live with people who are just genuinely different from us, to try to be fair to them.

[Sam Cedar]

Pause it for a second. Wait, wait, wait, wait.

[Brian]

I told you. AI Barry, who are the people who.

[Sam Cedar]

Are genuinely different from us?

[Matt Leck]

Like immigrants?

[Sam Cedar]

What is it immigrants? Or is it people who shoot innocent people in the face?

[Matt Leck]

Shoot. Orphan, kid, orphan.

[Brian]

Hey. Fathers who shoot innocent people in the face.

[Sam Cedar]

Fathers who shoot innocent people in the face. Like, who are the people who are genuinely different than us?

[Jeet Heer]

Us?

[Sam Cedar]

Like, are we supposed to be. Is he saying that? Like, we've got to get along with the people who are rounding up other people? Like, you know, it's easy to judge the, you know, like, the. The people who would round up the Japanese citizens in this country and put them into concentration camps and detention camps, but they may be different from you. Not the Japanese people. But I'm talking about the Rounder Up. Yeah, the Roundup guys. Because.

[Brian]

And.

[Sam Cedar]

But you've got the. It's uniquely American to think about the Goon Squad to have sympathy for that. Like, who is it that we. He won't say, because this is all. Like, this is like, how can I. This is my prompt. This is. Incidentally, this is the prompt if you want to be a CBS anchor. Now, this is the key. AI prompt. And I'm giving it away. The prompt is. How do I say? Stuff that sounds like it might appeal to different constituencies but is actually not choosing any type of side.

[Brian]

No, it is choosing a side.

[Sam Cedar]

Well, it's choosing a side in that you're not choosing a side between the person.

[Brian]

No. In saying that there's even. Like, in even giving this oxygen. You're choosing a side and then emphasizing that. That the ICE agent has. Has maybe ejaculated once before.

[Sam Cedar]

Do you not understand that it is one of the most uniquely American things.

[Brian]

Yeah.

[Sam Cedar]

To ask whether we can get along with people who are genuinely different with.

[Matt Leck]

A standing occupying force. I think it's actually pretty American to say, why the fuck does this exist?

[Brian]

Yeah. I mean, the most American thing I can think of is that, you know, I don't know. When I was growing up, I was taught that Nazis are bad.

[Sam Cedar]

So. Well. But there it's genuinely American, you know, saying, get along with People who think that. That Nazis are very American.

[Matt Leck]

I'm getting emails from mothers.

[Sam Cedar]

You and Greg Levino together have some apple pie and take in a baseball game. Exactly. Let's give it. Let's give it a try. Just go back a little because I love that. That line is amazing.

[Matt Leck]

It's amazing how substance useless is.

[Tony Dokoupil]

Parents themselves, these are both deeply American sentiments. But our job now is maybe the most American thing of all. It's to find a way to live with people who are genuinely different from us, to try to be fair to them, and in doing so, to make things better and keep things decent. Because in America, no one else is gonna do it for us.

[Sam Cedar]

The press is basically.

[Matt Leck]

There's a lot of people in media that have decided, like, my job here is counterinsurgency and to make the population pacified. And this is just him conscious saying, an armed agent of the state murder.

[Sam Cedar]

Shot a woman in the face.

[Matt Leck]

And his primary concern isn't like, let's get to the bottom of, like, how that happens. It's everybody just relax, chill, and get along.

[Sam Cedar]

But do you understand? Watch his commercial. He also says, right here, and you gotta go back a bit, little, little bit to catch this. It's. It's. In America, nobody's going to do it for us. So I try to just like, work my head around this.

[Brian]

Yeah.

[Sam Cedar]

Does that mean in, let's say, Germany, people would do it for you? And how do you square the idea that we have to get along with people? That if you don't get along with it, the American government right now, as constituted by the Trump regime, will shoot you dead if you don't get along.

[Matt Leck]

I mean, call you a terrorist.

[Sam Cedar]

What the. Like, is there no one editing this shit?

[Matt Leck]

It's honestly like, if we wrote the scripts to try to discredit them because how we expected it to go, it would be exactly this sort of schlock sentiments.

[Tony Dokoupil]

But our job now is maybe the most American thing of all. It's to find a way to live with people who are genuinely different from us, to try to be fair to them, and in doing so, to make things better and keep things decent. Because in America, no one else is going to do it for us. It's not my job to tell you what to think about what happened here yesterday, but I can tell you we owe our children a nation that is better than the one we live in today. And I can say that because we all know it's true.

[Sam Cedar]

Thanks, Smokey the Bear. Leave the park better than you found it. Yeah, I mean, you wonder why we're.

[Matt Leck]

Just fascinating a brainless country at this point.

[Sam Cedar]

Why is his voice so low and.

[Jeet Heer]

His head is filled with helium?

[Brian]

I don't know.

[Jeet Heer]

That's a good question.

[Matt Leck]

How do people watch that and think they're getting anything out of it?

[Sam Cedar]

You know what I think the ratings would suggest that they're very few. I mean the, the only, the only positive I can say about this, I mean honestly, after the first night, he had good ratings in the first night and on by the second night, like they were all gone. The only positive I can tell you is that you are not alone.

[Brian]

Oh my God.

[Sam Cedar]

There's a second one has seen this and also thinks it's absolute steamed up garbage.

[Matt Leck]

This isn't, this isn't as long and.

[Sam Cedar]

You know it because it's true.

[Matt Leck]

I mean, he's got some wisdom. Here's some more.

[Tony Dokoupil]

Last night we were live from Dallas Southern Methodist University. The expectation was that we'd go on to Denver, but with the big news, Adam, Minneapolis, we diverted here and we're doing the morning show evening as well. Things change.

[Sam Cedar]

That's the news.

[Brian]

I know everyone.

[Sam Cedar]

Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait.

[Brian]

Everyone was really invested in being intention.

[Sam Cedar]

For the web, right? That was just for the web. That wasn't all the actual trap.

[Matt Leck]

Oh man, someone could do a funny AI edit if it was ethical to do so.

[Sam Cedar]

But that's the, I mean that's the, that's the sort of like, you know, social.

[Brian]

But, but, but social media making this point before the social media. We're making this point before the show though, about how like why are they playing up him going to different cities all the time as if this is like magic and as if anchors don't do this. And it's because it's like a, almost like he's like an influencer a little bit. Him talking to the press like this. That's how you sell a rich guy like Ellison on talking to the kids. Because this is as, this is a Zionist led effort to change, to manufacture consent for like a new center that doesn't include the rapidly shifting viewpoints on the state of Israel, which include, you know, basically like some young Republicans, but a majority of independents and Democrats at this point. And so when you can talk like this and say, you know, I'm moving around, where, where is Hasan going to be next? Is he going to be in China or here? Whatever. That's what they're trying to do. Jeremy Barr of the Guardian reported this yesterday. I headlined it, but you saw that the number two producer on CBS news, Javier Guzman left the show or was dismissed. Unclear on what the rationale was, but led to confusion in the newsroom. And it's only week one of the show. The timing is obviously not ideal with Tony Dokipal on a cross country tour right now. So their number two producer was either fired or dismissed within the first week of this situation.

[Sam Cedar]

You can, you. You obviously can substitute out chat GPT exactly for that dude anyways. And you've got the whole show. All right, we heard this on somebody at IM that the body cam footage of the killer.

[Brian]

He was filming the whole time.

[Sam Cedar]

He was. Yeah, actually it wasn't body cam footage.

[Matt Leck]

It was.

[Sam Cedar]

Was a cell phone footage.

[Brian]

Really in fear for his life, by the way too filming the whole time, gun in the other. And he shot her with one hand. So Renee Good.

[Sam Cedar]

Renee good. You'll see her in this video before she is shot. The ICE remember that this cop, this the ICE killer, he walked over, saw that he had killed her, walked back, got in his car, drove off with his cell phone and his weapon, drove, fled the scene after he murdered this woman. And state officials were not given access to this footage and they were prevented from getting it. And apparently it has leaked obviously through ICE to right wing. I don't know what alpha news is, but I have a feeling it's probably not, you know. Do we know what that is? Look it up because I don't want to. Minnesota and national news.

[Matt Leck]

I imagine it's.

[Sam Cedar]

It looks like a right wing Minnesota.

[Matt Leck]

Yeah, I've rackets the left one. I think Alpha must be a right wing.

[Sam Cedar]

Okay, well let's. It was leaked to right wing news outlets. And this is, this is the. And you'll recall he gets out of his vehicle and he circles around Renee Good's car. And you will see her. You'll see how threatening she is. And I don't know why they released this because it doesn't. It doesn't purport to show that this guy is in any type of danger. But here it is.

[Matt Leck]

That's okay.

[Brian]

We don't change our plates every morning.

[Jeet Heer]

Just don't.

[Sam Cedar]

Or you know, it'll be the same plate when you come talk to us later. That's fine. U. S. Citizen. Former. You want to come at us? You want to come at us?

[Brian]

I said go get yourself some lunch, big boy.

[Sam Cedar]

Out of the car.

[Matt Leck]

I think he'd already decided to shoot at this point.

[Brian]

So I'm sorry. Get out of the car there. Right.

[Sam Cedar]

But wait, is that the end of it?

[Matt Leck]

No, no, no, no.

[Brian]

Okay, I'm sorry, I'm sorry. I just wanted to note that. That you hear that the, the. The two officers approaching from the other car. That, that's when they're coming up. That's what they're saying to her. Fucking bit.

[Sam Cedar]

He said fucking bit.

[Brian]

Yeah. So they're trying to claim the. The right is taking a victory lap online about that footage because they. It doesn't show.

[Matt Leck]

You can't see the wheels.

[Brian]

You can't see the wheels. But you see how calm he is. Or at the very least, you know, like not in. In danger as he gets in front of the car.

[Sam Cedar]

The idea that that's exculpatory in any way whatsoever.

[Brian]

You.

[Sam Cedar]

I mean, let's. That moment. Let's play that back at that moment where he definitely moves like this. He definitely has to move and it makes us out. But he's not. He. Whoa. That's it. And fires. I mean, all you hear is whoa.

[Brian]

Right?

[Sam Cedar]

Whoa.

[Matt Leck]

His gun shouldn't even be out at this point.

[Brian]

I mean, she's, she's. She's either.

[Sam Cedar]

He draws an hour, let's be clear. Yeah, he draws his gun before she moves forward. Oh, he wouldn't have been able to fire that quickly.

[Brian]

Yep.

[Sam Cedar]

There's pictures of it too. He. He draws that gun before she moves forward.

[Brian]

She's turning the wheel. Did you see that?

[Sam Cedar]

Yeah.

[Brian]

Go back, go back and show. See, so she's the last.

[Sam Cedar]

Yeah, she's. I mean, she's turning.

[Brian]

She's turning the wheels of the car clearly to do it.

[Sam Cedar]

By this point, it's already all the.

[Matt Leck]

Way to the right. It's all.

[Sam Cedar]

She.

[Matt Leck]

You could just see her. There she is, the wheels all the way to the right and she's going away from him and he shoots her in the face. She's not turning after that because she's dead.

[Sam Cedar]

It also shows this has gone out before she goes forward.

[Brian]

Also the, the right wing narrative about the acceleration at the end of her life, which was clearly her body falling forward and like perhaps the gas getting pushed on that. The shots were fired after that acceleration happened as if she was trying to hit him. I mean, that's completely undercut here. You see it right there.

[Matt Leck]

If she's trying to hit him, she would have crashed into the house. That's on screen right now.

[Sam Cedar]

If she was trying to hit him, she'd be alive.

[Brian]

Yeah, yeah. I mean, this is not, it's not a serious. It's not a serious argument here. We talked about.

[Matt Leck]

No, we're dealing with Fascists.

[Brian]

I mean, the, we're dealing. There's the fascists, there's the like, you know, religious evangelical base that has like basically transplanted also Trump into this godlike role. And they see his like ICE agents as executing his will and that this is against the political enemies that they've always opposed. And so this is not something that can be confronted just by the facts, as we're clearly seeing right now.

[Sam Cedar]

Ben Shapiro, I saw that Crystal and Sager had a debate on the shooting. I don't mean to impugn your fellow commentators, but what on earth is there to debate about?

[Brian]

Well, I mean, I couldn't watch that because I could barely stomach seeing what JD Vance was saying yesterday and Kristi Noem. But I'm sure Crystal held her own in that regard.

[Matt Leck]

I mean, it's just the media we live in. But Sager is a fascist and he previously, last year said, what was it? What do you say about the Venezuelan hairdresser that got sent to like, he's a nasty, nasty guy who will defend nasty shit. And you know, it was nice that they got Glenn Greenwald on there to give him a little talking to, but he's not competent for this and he, I assume he disgraced himself. I'm not going to watch it because I'm not going to watch that guy talk anymore.

[Sam Cedar]

Definitely not. Cameron. This is what I can't get over. I feel like we're analyzing split second moments that the people involved are not processing to the same degree. Why not ask the agent why the agent was walking in front of the vehicle in the first place? It is not important that he was walking in front of a vehicle. ICE agent agents didn't have control over. That seems to be reckless to me. And there has to be a procedure saying not to do that. Oh yeah, no, like, look, it is indisputable what the various procedures are. You're not supposed to as ice. You don't have. You don't get in front of a car. You don't have the authority to draw on American citizen. Use of de escalation. This is from General Principles Respect for Human Life. To ensure that de escalation. To ensure that DHS LEOs are proficient in a variety of techniques that could aid them appropriately resolving an encounter Components shall provide use of force training that includes de escalation tactics and techniques. You go on and on. Moving vehicles, vessels, aircraft or other conveyances. DHS LEOs are prohibited from discharging firearms at the operator of a moving vehicle, vessel, aircraft or other conveyance. Unless the use of deadly force against the operator is justified under the standards articulated elsewhere in this policy. Firearms should not be discharged to disable moving vehicles, etc. Etc. Before using deadly force under these circumstances, the LEO must take into consideration the hazards that may be posed to law enforcement and innocent bystanders by an out of control conveyance. In other words, if you're shooting at point blank a person to get their vehicle to stop, you know, to, to stop like that in and of itself was not procedure. Firearms shall not be discharged solely as a warning or signal at moving vehicles, et cetera, et cetera. The. There is no policy circumstance. But the point, the reason why people are analyzing the video in this way is because broadly speaking, it is very difficult to win on charges against law enforcement in their duties. Just, just as a sort of like a default. But in this instance, there is no reasonable interpretation. Certainly not with the second and third shot and even the first shot. But like, but beyond a shadow of doubt, yeah, that car does not have the ability to slide sideways.

[Brian]

Has this guy ever walked in a city in traffic, for example? I mean, it's just unbelievable. Like you deal with more aggressive drivers when you're at a stop sign in a regular like environment. I mean, Ryan Grimm points us out. I didn't even hear this. That her last words. Renee Good's last words to Ross. That's fine, dude. I'm not mad at you. That was what she said. And then you hear at the end is him saying fucking bitch.

[Sam Cedar]

Yep, yep.

[Brian]

Just a good reminder that these are, I mean these are also deeply like misogynistic. I don't know what this guy's background is, but there's.

[Sam Cedar]

According to his father, he is a good Christian conservative dad. Sounds like he is maga. He's been on the. He's been in immigration enforcement for about 12 to 13 years.

[Brian]

Passion project Iraq.

[Matt Leck]

That, that's important because like I think Graham Plattner had a really good statement on this and that what these people are there to do is not keep us safe, but to intimidate political opponents. But this is the training that these people get. He had plenty of training throughout his life.

[Sam Cedar]

Like this is not one of those people who have had 47 days or 37 days. He's probably training.

[Matt Leck]

Yes, exactly, exactly.

[Brian]

But with this being imperial blowback with him being a vet, I mean you see how with dhs, Immigration and Customs Enforcement, it's what's my skill set and how can I apply it here? Well, we've built out an infrastructure for you to apply it here.

[Matt Leck]

I mean, this is. The crisis of masculinity is that there's a whole bunch of men that have nothing to offer society except that they can put a gun in someone's fucking face.

[Brian]

And then you can now you have a $50,000 bonus if you want to make that your career. This is like. You know what? This is like brown shirts. I mean, this is what they're trying to create. Yeah, I had.

[Sam Cedar]

Let's read some IMs.

[Brian]

Okay.

[Sam Cedar]

He did bribery. He is also a green card marriage guy and has a Grindr account in interactions with male sw. I don't know.

[Brian]

I hadn't seen that. But.

[Sam Cedar]

But apparently his wife is from the Philippines.

[Brian]

Okay, well, I mean, the. The. Okay, I don't want it. We'll see. But, like, I mean, the. The. I said this yesterday. Remember those border patrol guys that had that Facebook group, ProPublica, uncovered it with a bunch of memes about raping AOC. And think about that video where you see, like, I don't know how many of these women that were. Like, how many women were there that were legal observers, but the one you see at the beginning, there's another woman that's in. I don't want to presume her gender, but in his face. And then he ends it with fucking bitch. Like, these are all interconnected and like, they're ramping up. When we talked about how they're not just gonna stop at trans people, they are ramping up the homophobia about her, too. We don't even need to dignify Jesse Waters with another segment about this, but he had some segment last night, you know, essentially mocking her for being in a. Really. In a. In a relationship with a woman. Pronouns now that her husband, Her. The. Her partner died in 2023 and her child's an orphan. That's what they're. I mean, misogyny, homophobia, the transphobia, the racism. It's about giving these things oxygen. And right now, they have maximum oxygen and they all inform one another.

[Sam Cedar]

Brooklyn pd, if y' all are taking calls today, I'm a public defender. And Brooklyn would love to add to Matt's take from yesterday about ICE and leadership response. There are parallels. 908 area code left his best. Well, we'll have to wait until Monday for that. Congressional ping pong fan. After seeing Chuck Schumer hug Marco Rubio, it's very, very refreshing to hear you guys confirm. Yes, both the Democratic Party and Republican Party are fascist. This is why the only political party I will support going forward is The American Communist Party, they're doing real good work on the ground. And I don't believe the smear is said about them online.

[Matt Leck]

Well, you're an idiot.

[Sam Cedar]

Statement they published on the ice shooting.

[Matt Leck]

Yeah, don't.

[Sam Cedar]

I also happen to know some members personally.

[Matt Leck]

Yeah, well, they should join gsa.

[Brian]

I don't think that Matt said that the Democratic Party was a fascist. I think he said Chuck Schumer was fascist.

[Matt Leck]

I think America is very fascist and it's endemic in both parties. I think it's also from what I've seen, the LaRouche like sort of freaks that I think this person is talking about. There's a lot of fascism there too, and people should look into Lyndon LaRouche and his collaboration with the CIA. So, yeah, no, fuck the American Communist Party.

[Sam Cedar]

Matthew from Milwaukee, do you all see Jesse Ventura yesterday?

[Matt Leck]

Yeah, we did.

[Sam Cedar]

Yeah.

[Matt Leck]

We maybe play that next week. I don't know.

[Sam Cedar]

Let's play it today. Okay, they'll be quick. Here's Jesse Ventura. He was governor 10 years ago now. It's got to be longer than that. Was it long? Oh, geez, I'm old. But former governor, former wrestler, former governor of Minnesota as an independent, I think he was probably left of center in his independence, but maybe a little bit of that sort of like libertarian hippie style stuff. But here he is talking about what's going on in this country today. Did it make you feel better to have that conversation or what would you say? No, I'm just saying, as a graduate of Roosevelt High School and as the former governor of Minnesota, I'm so proud of Roosevelt High School School and how they stood up for what. What is supposed to be America and freedom. And freedom is not arresting people without warrants. We have a system here. It's called a constitution. And we have a party. The Republicans, who don't seem to want to abide by the Constitution. January 6th is a prime example of that. And now they're all free and they're in charge. You know what? Maybe it's time for Jesse. I only did one turn. Pause it. Pause it for one second. Just to fill you in. Apparently there was an ice raid at this school, Roosevelt School, and they canceled classes after this raid.

[Brian]

Was that the footage of the teenager that was being kind of pushed to the ground by ice?

[Sam Cedar]

Yes, in the snow. I think that was it. Yes.

[Brian]

It's hard to keep track.

[Sam Cedar]

School was being dismissed and then these scumbags came and, you know, jumped somebody. It's unclear to me right now who it was, but the Folks who worked at the school provided video on what was happening, etc. And the federation of Teachers in Minneapolis came out. I guess it was an educator who was arrested and then released. And the union said that agents had deployed tear gas on people at the scene. We have a system here. It's called a constitution. And we have a party, the Republicans, who don't seem to want to abide by the Constitution. January 6th is a prime example of that. And now they're all free and they're in charge. You know what? Maybe it's time for Jesse. I only did one term. I'm owed a second.

[Brian]

Can you tell us, remind us, you went to school here?

[Sam Cedar]

I went to school year. I'm a 1969 graduate of Minneapolis Roosevelt. I'm proud of them for what they did. They made me proud as an alumni. Go, Teddies, what are your thoughts? I know we're jumping in, probably doubling up on his questions, but what are some of your thoughts about what unfolded.

[Brian]

Yesterday and then after that, what you saw?

[Sam Cedar]

I've told you already, we're a country of the Constitution. We have a. We have leadership now that has destroyed the Constitution. They don't follow it. They could care less about it. Am I rushing? Right or wrong? I took an oath to defend the Constitution against all enemies, foreign and domestic. I view after January 6, the Republican Party is a domestic enemy to our Constitution.

[Brian]

Oh, wow.

[Matt Leck]

Get him.

[Sam Cedar]

I can't get any bolder than that, can I? And you obviously saw the video that the students shot outside here, and that obviously elicited a lot of emotion. Just watch. There were some students who shot the video of the chaos here yesterday. Oh, you didn't see it?

[Jeet Heer]

Okay.

[Sam Cedar]

I thought you didn't see it.

[Brian]

Okay.

[Sam Cedar]

The only thing I've seen is the murder.

[Tony Dokoupil]

So talk about, you were a student here.

[Sam Cedar]

When did you graduate? All right, I think we get it, but Ventura is coming out and he's also talking about the fascism that we're seeing. In another segment, he talks about.

[Jeet Heer]

When.

[Sam Cedar]

You start to see the military function as police officers, that's when you know you're living in. Under. In his words, a dictatorship. Incidentally, there's footage of these ICE thugs and Border Patrol thugs going in and supposedly taking documents about the investigations that are ongoing in terms of the Medicaid fraud. There again, they have no authority to in any way participate in this stuff. They have no authority. They are. They are expanding the realms in which these thugs are operating. They are not staying within statutory guidelines. They are not staying within constitutional guidelines. They are blurring the lines between what constitutes the military and what constitutes police operations. And he talks about this. I mean it, I mean, I think it's a fairly. We lose sight of that. But what's the, what's the distinction between the military and policing? Like, why do we have a posse comitatus in this country? Is it, is it because, like, is it the weapons? Is it like, what's the point of it? They're blurring the lines between what constitutes a military force and a police force. Police force have much more rigid level of accountability, statutory, you know, guide rails in which they're supposed to operate in the, in the training. And now we're just getting these guys on there who have been, who are paramilitary groups.

[Matt Leck]

I mean the entire thing's a big joke like that. We need them on the streets with guns anyway, as if there's some sort of. Trump literally called it an invasion of immigrants. No, we had an influx of immigrants because in part massive pandemic and our destabilizing countries in Caribbean and neighbors, like let's address those things.

[Sam Cedar]

All right, five more IMs, then we'll get out of here. Corporations ate my baby. Big giant vanilla ISIS babies. Ryan from Santa Monica. Long comment, but worth it. When I was in my late teens and early 20s, there was a local security firm that hired all the wannabe cops. The guys who everyone knew were psychos, idiots, bullies. The uniforms are black, the cars look like real police vehicles. Lots of people hired them. Within three years we had a series of break in burglaries performed by then, two rapes, a drunk guard crashing into his car, into parking vehicles and fleeing the scene. Eventually a murder that finally closed the firm. But everyone who went to high school with them knew what they were ICE of the same guys, only with more power, bigger weapons, federal immunity and a free hand to themselves. Indeed. Pizza dog. How far away is the international border from Minneapolis in this? Is this in CBP jurisdiction? This is a cell phone lot. Not even on the airport property. As far as I know. It's outside the airport fence. I don't know if they have jurisdiction closer to airports. I know that they have to be within 100 miles of the border. CPB does, but I also don't know if these guys haven't been sort of like deputized by ice. It's unclear.

[Matt Leck]

Great to have guys shooting people in the face and you don't know what the authority is.

[Sam Cedar]

Blaze Chadwell writing in, as I do every day, to inform Emma that Tony Two Cuts is married To Katie Tur from msnbc. And they have kids together.

[Brian]

You don't need to keep reminding me. Yeah, I. I don't really care.

[Sam Cedar]

He's taken Emma. Move on.

[Matt Leck]

So clearly. So clearly that's what this is about.

[Brian]

Oh, I just vomit onto the camera.

[Sam Cedar]

Illuminati kids. Not to be dramatic, but this newscaster is the hellish incarnation of Kent Brockman in corporal form. The prior CBS anchor guidelines have been replaced with watching the kids news episode of the Simpsons once a day.

[Matt Leck]

I mean, it really sucks. Like, I generally thought John Dickerson was for the Sunday show hosts, good. Like.

[Brian]

Yeah.

[Matt Leck]

And, you know, you replace them with, like, the worst.

[Brian]

Well, it was an institution. I mean, like, people are like, you know that I passed that building up. And then, you know it's up on the west side. Right, The CBS building. And then you also have the ABC one on the Upper west side. It's a little further up.

[Sam Cedar]

It's on, I think, 57th Street.

[Brian]

Yeah.

[Sam Cedar]

Like a tenth or something like that.

[Brian]

Yeah. I mean, it's. We have many criticisms of the mainstream press, but there are people there that are trying to do good work, and it's a real shame.

[Matt Leck]

And they should get a sense of the urgency of it by this point, because your institutions are being hijacked.

[Sam Cedar]

Tater tot, Renee Goods. Go Fund Me reaches $1.5 million. And I think they suspended it at that point.

[Brian]

That's awesome.

[Sam Cedar]

All right, two more IMs. Mega MCA. I recognize that you guys live in New York, so don't drive off. And the car accelerated because the foot came off the brake because she was dying. And the car accelerated to its idle speed as they do. Because that's how they're designed. They're designed.

[Matt Leck]

I think it went fast. I drive like I'm from North Dakota.

[Sam Cedar]

Yeah.

[Matt Leck]

I've driven on snow before.

[Brian]

I don't know. It doesn't necessarily matter, but that was my read on.

[Sam Cedar]

On it. That was not it. It was going faster than idle. You're not going to push two cars at an idle.

[Matt Leck]

Maybe the initial, like, way it jumped was that. But the acceleration afterwards, I think that was body on the.

[Brian]

Also when you see how she slumped, she's towards the gas, not towards the brake, towards the center of the car.

[Matt Leck]

That's what happens when you shoot somebody and they're driving a car.

[Brian]

Yeah.

[Matt Leck]

Like, they're usually hovering over the gas pedal.

[Sam Cedar]

Yeah, I'll look into that. Jack Smith, recent deposition from Jackie Iec. Let's see. Here we go. The final IM of the week. Brooklyn Progressives Zoran is also fixing small quality of life issues like the Williamsburg Bridge bike path bump. It's refreshing to see government work for.

[Brian]

The people because knowing Sarge is really quick, just how smart this administration is, knowing that some of the affordability stuff is a little bit out of his control with the tariffs, with inflation, delivering on small things while he can like work on the more longer term projects. I mean, it's just, it's, it's well done.

[Sam Cedar]

Nice to end on at least a somewhat positive note. Take care of yourselves. Matt, Ryan, Emma, great job this week folks. We'll see you on Monday.

[Jeet Heer]

It might take all the strength I got to get to where I want.

[Sam Cedar]

But I know somehow I'm gonna get there.

[Jeet Heer]

I wasn't looking when I just got caught between the truth and the light bar the f won't make me.

[Sam Cedar]

Feel any better yeah I know the clock is ticking but the meds are gonna kickin and my pilot light shining for right I get somewhere the choice was made for the option where you.

[Jeet Heer]

Don'T get paid for the road that.

[Sam Cedar]

Bends before it finally breaks you.

[Jeet Heer]

I.

[Sam Cedar]

Guess somehow lost my drive between the 101 and the 5 do you know.

[Jeet Heer]

How far far the teacher takes you?

[Sam Cedar]

Yeah, I know the clock is ticking.

[Jeet Heer]

But the men's are gonna kick in and that pilot.