3557 - Trump Attacks the Fed; Life After Cars w/ Sarah Goodyear & Doug Gordon

Summary

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The Majority Report with Sam Seder

Episode 3557 - Trump Attacks the Fed; Life After Cars w/ Sarah Goodyear & Doug Gordon
Aired: January 12, 2026

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EPISODE OVERVIEW

This episode tackles two central themes at the heart of American politics and daily life. First, host Sam Seder and the crew dissect the Trump administration’s ongoing assault on independent federal agencies, particularly the Department of Justice’s (DOJ) criminal investigation into Federal Reserve Chair Jerome Powell. The episode then shifts to a deep dive into the American “car culture” with guests Sarah Goodyear and Doug Gordon—co-authors of Life After Cars: Freeing Ourselves from the Tyranny of the Automobile—who discuss the historical roots, social consequences, and the future vision for cities less dominated by automobiles.

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KEY SEGMENTS AND DISCUSSION POINTS

1. News Rundown & Trump vs. the Federal Reserve (00:13–16:22)

Trump’s DOJ Targets Fed Chair Jerome Powell

• Context: Trump’s DOJ has launched a criminal investigation against Jerome Powell, centering on alleged cost overruns in Fed construction projects.

• Sam Seder’s Analysis:

  • The attack is not just about Powell but represents an ominous use of the DOJ as a weapon in Trump’s “vengeance tour,” targeting independent institutions to serve political goals.
  • Seder links these moves to ongoing authoritarian encroachment, connecting events like paramilitary crackdowns in Minnesota to broader attempts to intimidate and centralize power.
  • Quote — Sam Seder (08:03):
    "Trump is trying to make Jerome Powell... an example so that the next chair of the Fed understands that Donald Trump will make your life a miserable hell, if not send you to jail, if you don't do what he says."

• Jerome Powell’s Statement on DOJ Criminal Investigation:

  • Powell, in a televised speech, acknowledges the subpoenas and frames the indictment threat as thinly veiled political interference aimed at undermining the Fed’s independent monetary policy.
  • Quote — Jerome Powell (10:46):
    "This new threat is not about my testimony… Those are pretexts. The threat of criminal charges is a consequence of the Federal Reserve setting interest rates based on our best assessment of what will serve the public, rather than following the preferences of the President."

• Other News Briefs:

  • Death tolls and detentions in Iran’s protests.
  • Largest nursing strike in NYC history.
  • ICE blocking congresswomen from a Minnesota facility.
  • Kristi Noem’s inflammatory rhetoric and the militarization of law enforcement.
  • House GOP pulling DHS funding from spending bill.
  • Exxon rejects Trump’s offer to buy Venezuelan oil.

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2. INTERVIEW: Life After Cars with Sarah Goodyear & Doug Gordon (22:00–66:32)

The Problem: America’s Tyranny of Car Dependence

• Summary of Book's Argument (Sarah Goodyear, 22:02):

  • The book is not anti-car, but argues that American society has made car ownership essential for full participation, making it a fundamentally unequal and dangerous system—for social equity, public health, and the environment.
  • Quote:
    "We have built a society in which owning and operating a car is a requirement for full enfranchisement... and that is fundamentally inegalitarian and dangerous."

• Personal Reflections:

  • Both hosts and guests recount growing up in suburban, car-centric environments that made mobility impossible without a car, robbing children of independence and contributing to urban sprawl.
  • Quote — Doug Gordon (23:41):
    "What it means for something to be tyrannical is you’re always dependent on it... it’s never not a factor in your life."

Historical Roots & Corporate Manufacturing of Car Culture (25:44–31:19)

• Origins of Car Dominance:

  • Powerful corporate interests (auto, fuel, tire companies) engineered America’s dependency through propaganda and dismantling public transit systems.

  • Groucho Marx's DuPont-sponsored "America’s Love Affair with the Automobile" promoted these ideas.

  • Anecdotes on community pushback from the 1920s—e.g., attempts to limit car speeds resisted and defeated by industry lobbying.

  • Quote — Sarah Goodyear (25:44):
    "There were major corporate interests that were invested in creating a world in which they could profit from the proliferation of automobile dominance..."

  • Doug Gordon recalls mass protests in the early 20th century against traffic violence:

    “Parents were called ‘White Star mothers’...marching for their kids killed by cars. It was seen as an urban assault…the Grim Reaper driving a car over the bodies of women and children.” (30:18)

The Fight for Change: Cycles of Progress & Backlash (33:08–36:32)

• Nascent Progress vs. Entrenched Backlash

  • Some cities have made strides (NYC, Paris, Ghent), investing in public space and transport.
  • Transit and walkability now face aggressive defunding and right-wing political backlash—reflecting heightened awareness and organization among advocates.
  • Walkable neighborhoods have become “luxury goods,” accessible only to the wealthy.

• Quote — Sarah Goodyear (34:30):
  "A walkable neighborhood in the United States... has become a luxury good. How can we accept this? The idea that you have to be rich to live somewhere you can walk to the store… how is that about freedom?"

Models for Life After Cars: Urban Successes (37:31–41:31)

• Ghent, Belgium:
  • Transformed city center with low-cost interventions—restricting car through-traffic, prioritizing cyclists and pedestrians.
  • Cycling surged, pollution fell, and even drivers benefited from reduced congestion.
  • Quote — Doug Gordon (39:16):
    "As soon as you just got rid of the cars, everyone felt much safer. It cost them less than 10 million euros... you couldn’t repair a highway interchange for less than $10 million."
• Netherlands:
  • “Home to the most satisfied drivers in the world”—because car traffic is minimized and only truly necessary drivers remain.

Barriers & Pathways: Local to National Policy (41:54–43:28)

• Congestion Pricing as a Model:

  • NYC’s coming congestion pricing plan follows successful examples from London, Stockholm.
  • But American cities’ poor transit infrastructure is a barrier to removing cars—requires state/federal investment and political will.

• The Ridership-Investment Chicken-and-Egg Problem:
  "You’d have to invest in transit before you could convince people to get out of their cars, but you need the ridership to justify the investment."

The 20-Year Arc in New York City (44:37–49:27)

• New York’s Progress:

  • Major bike and public space expansions during Bloomberg era (thanks to DOT Commissioner Janette Sadik-Khan).
  • De Blasio and Adams slowed or reversed gains; new mayor Mamdani made public transit a central campaign plank, shifting public sentiment.
  • Covid made transit advocacy difficult, but the importance of city leadership remains.

• Quote — Sarah Goodyear (47:21):
  "He said, I believe that bus riders and all transit riders and all people who don’t use cars in this city are worthy of the same dignity and respect as people who drive... and that was the message of fast and free buses."

Ideology, Suburbs, and Anti-Urban Hostility (50:56–58:09)

• Suburban and Rural Dimensions:

  • Suburbs often resist transit expansion as a means to maintain exclusion and "safety"; this is linked to both anti-urban ideology and racialized history.

  • Quote — Sarah Goodyear (55:49):
    “There’s a fundamentally anti-urban strain in American politics that goes all the way back... cities are a robust and pluralistic place where people are free to be themselves... fundamentally threatening to a fascist regime.”

  • Highways and suburbanization purposely dismantled urban communities, disproportionately impacting Black and brown residents.

Race, Class, Tech, and the Political Economy of Urban Transportation (58:09–61:06)

• White flight, “urban decay” rhetoric, and the demonization of public transit are all intertwined with ongoing culture wars and privatization efforts by both right-wing and tech elites.
• Technological fixes often serve to reinforce exclusivity ("reinventing the bus, but with fewer poor people").

Future Prospects: Policy, Advocacy, and Long-Term Change (62:26–66:32)

• Federal and state-level policies have occasionally promoted walkability and transit (e.g., California’s housing by train stations; Reconnecting Communities programs), but progress is slow and easily reversed by right-wing administrations.
• Goodyear encourages a long-term, strategic vision: a new generation of politicians and advocates are rising who “get it” and want cities designed for people—not cars.
• Quote — Sarah Goodyear (65:43):
  "We need to help people imagine what things could be like... Right now is the time to keep fighting. There is a whole new generation of politicians and voters who actually really get this and they don’t want to live like this anymore."

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MEMORABLE QUOTES & MOMENTS

The Danger of Authoritarianism and Car Culture (10:46)

Jerome Powell:
"The threat of criminal charges is a consequence of the Federal Reserve setting interest rates... rather than following the preferences of the President. This is about whether the Fed will be able to continue to set interest rates based on evidence and economic conditions, or whether instead monetary policy will be directed by political pressure or intimidation."
[10:46]

The Tyranny of the Automobile (22:02)

Sarah Goodyear:
"We have built a society in which owning and operating a car is a requirement for full enfranchisement... that is fundamentally inegalitarian and dangerous to our society and our planet."

On Urban Change and Hope (37:31)

Doug Gordon:
"When you just got rid of the cars, everyone felt much safer. It cost them less than 10 million euros... you couldn’t repair a highway interchange for less than $10 million."
[39:16]

The Luxury of Walkability (34:30)

Sarah Goodyear:
"A walkable neighborhood in the United States has become a luxury good. How can we accept this?... How is that about freedom?"

The Politics of Anti-Urbanism (55:49)

Sarah Goodyear:
"There’s a fundamentally anti-urban strain in American politics... cities are a robust and pluralistic place where people are free to be themselves... fundamentally threatening to a fascist regime."

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TIMESTAMPS FOR IMPORTANT SEGMENTS

• Trump/Fed Investigation & Authoritarianism: 00:13–16:22
• Jerome Powell's Statement on DOJ Probe: 10:46–12:41
• Life After Cars Interview Start: 22:00
• Origins of Car Culture & Corporate Influence: 25:44–31:19
• Grassroots & Policy Struggles for Urban Reform: 33:08–43:28
• Ghent, Belgium & Car-Free City Planning: 37:31
• NYC’s 20-Year Transformation: 44:37–49:27
• Ideology, Cities, & Suburbs: 50:56–58:09
• Race, Tech, and Transit Exclusion: 58:09–61:06
• Vision for the Future & Federal/Local Opportunities: 62:26–66:32

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FINAL NOTES

• The episode pivots between urgent political developments—the Trump administration’s authoritarian efforts to undermine checks on presidential power—and a sweeping, optimistic discussion of how urban life can improve as advocates, movements, and leaders fight for cities that put people, not cars, at the center.
• Goodyear and Gordon stress that "life after cars" is not about fanaticism, but about breaking free from a system that no longer serves most Americans—and building cities that are just, walkable, and vibrant for all.

Recommended for audiences interested in:

• US politics under Trump
• Urban planning and transportation reform
• Environmental and social justice
• Grassroots advocacy and policy change

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Transcript

[Jared Brown]

You are listening to a free version.

[Sarah Goodyear]

Of Majority Report with Sam Steater.

[Jared Brown]

To support this show and get another.

[Sarah Goodyear]

15 minutes of daily program, go to Majority FM please.

[Sam Seder]

The Majority Report with Sam Cedar. It is Monday, January 12, 2026. Monday. My name is Sam Seder. This is the five time award winning Majority Report. We are broadcasting live steps from the industrially ravaged Gowanus Canal in the heartland of America, downtown Brooklyn, usa. On the program today, Sarah Goodyear, Doug Gordon, authors of Life After Cars. Also on the program today, Trump's DOJ opens criminal investigation against the Federal Reserve chair. Death toll from protests in Iran. Over 500 killed, 10,000 detained. Reportedly, Kristi Noem continues to lie about the Minnesota killings. Says more Trump troops are preparing to invade the state. Meanwhile, ICE denies entry to three Minnesota congresswomen at a facility that looks like just some type of paramilitary camp set up. Largest nursing strike in New York City history begins. House Republicans pulled DHS funding from this week's planned vote on a partial spending package. That's important. Exxon says thanks but no thanks to Trump's offer of Venezuelan oil. Trump then whines and says he's running the country. Venezuela in addition to America, record number of adults. Id. Now as independents, Democrat numbers pop up just a little bit. Ohio Republican Senator Bernie Moreno, you remember him from that prank that his intern played on him. Hilarious. The classic grinder in Florida prank comes out in favor of extending the Obamacare subsidies. He's got a race this year.

[Jared Brown]

Jared Brown, 2026.

[Sam Seder]

Trump says civil rights led to white people being badly treated. All this and more on today's Majority Report. Welcome, ladies and gentlemen.

[Jared Brown]

It is fun day Monday.

[Sam Seder]

You know, the, that stuff gets more ironic the deeper we go.

[Jared Brown]

Fun day Monday.

[Sam Seder]

It's fun day.

[Jared Brown]

Yeah.

[Sam Seder]

As the fun half is also now like sort of turned a little bit more ironic of a, of a slogan lot to get to in the news today. You know, this is a book that we have onto the program today that I've wanted to interview these folks for a while and this was an issue that was more heated. It felt like, you know, 10 years ago, 15 years ago in terms of like bikes and cars and whatnot. It is really important in an era where the country has moved to authoritarianism, like full on, like, you know, I think and part of the reason why we're going to start the show with this clip about Jerome Powell is the Federal Reserve is the only institution that the Supreme Court has decided is not subject to complete whim by the president, which of course is also in My estimation, an incorrect assessment of other independent agencies that Congress has set up as being independent. But they're really concerned because for rich people, the Fed and the Fed's actions and the Fed's supposed independence. Is paramount in terms of their ability to make money. And at least in the sort of like in whatever stage of capitalism we were in before, it all just became, let's just go to the casino every day at the highest stakes possible. Now we're watching the fascism on the streets of Minneapolis throughout Minnesota. We're watching their response to having killed, and I would argue probably second degree murder of a woman on the streets of Minneapolis. And their response is by these jackbooted thugs, depending on what they could get at the Army Navy shop that they shop at, is to ramp up their violence to become more violent. And the other part of that fascism we're seeing now where Trump is using the government, he's tried to prosecute Tish James, he tried to prosecute Comey, he is pardoning all his friends for a certain amount of money. I mean, let's not say friends, you know, friends in the same way that you go to like an open air market, they go, I'll give you a break, my friend. So this is all part and part of the authoritarianism, the fascism that's happening in this country. And everything that I have read about how to fight this stuff, particularly as it's being rolled out, is for people to maintain a vision of what life can be without this, that this is not a foregone conclusion, that this is not the normal state of being, that you can, it's important to have aspirations and a vision for the future as you fight this stuff. And it can be as banal as, like more walkable, more, you know, cities, more public transportation, less detriment to the environment, less social isolation, isolation that, you know, a life without cars would bring. And so, you know, we're going to try and sort of like maintain this balance of talking about a vision for the future. And you know what Zora Mamdani, like, just even frankly, you know, over the weekend, or was it last week, he proposed 9,000 new public toilets in the city.

[Doug Gordon]

Oh, my God.

[Sam Seder]

It's like, it's not the sexiest thing. I mean, maybe it's very not sexy, but in the strict sense of the word, but in terms of just like a quality of life. Huge. Huge. I've been saying it's 1,000, but it's huge. It's 1,000. It feels like like 10.

[Doug Gordon]

Yeah. Just anywhere.

[Sam Seder]

But the idea of the child care stuff. I mean, it is very important to hold on an aspirational vision and a belief that, that there can be something different. Like there can be a world where we don't have buffed up paramilitary roaming the streets when they decide to invade a city and attack black and brown people and then the white people that would dare to even speak up about it. And so this is very important stuff in that regard. Here is the latest assault, fascistic, authoritarian, whatever of those two words you want to use. I think you can go back and forth, but again, we've seen a rollout and invasion over 2000 paramilitary brown shirts. Maybe not technically because they've been so professionalized. Too formal, Too formal. Rolled out in Minneapolis, Minnesota in general. And now back in Washington, we're watching Donald Trump use the DOJ as a weapon again. They tried it with James, they tried it with Comey. It didn't work. Now they're going after, and, and let's be clear, they're going after Jerome Powell. And I, you know, listen, I have issues with the Federal Reserve. I think they should be more transparent. I think they should be perhaps, perhaps less independent. Structurally speaking. There should be more oversight. But this is not the way to do it because this is just intimidation tactics. Trump is trying to make Jerome Powell not only who's, whose term is up in May anyways, but he wants to make sure that he doesn't stick around on the board of governors. He wants to make sure that the next chair of the Fed understands that Donald Trump will make your life a miserable hell, if not send you to jail if you don't do what he says. And what he wants is low interest rates so that he can prime this disastrous economy he has created with the hopes that it will just pop up a little bit before the midterm elections. Here's Jerome Powell after finding out that the DOJ is criminally investigating him because of cost overruns that have taken place at the building of the Federal Reserve construction over the past several years.

[Jerome Powell]

Good evening. On Friday, the Department of justice served the Federal Reserve with grand jury subpoenas threatening a criminal indictment related to my testimony before the Senate Banking Committee last June. That testimony concerned, in part, a multi year project to renovate historic Federal Reserve office buildings. I have deep respect for the rule of law and for accountability in our democracy. No one, certainly not the chair of the Federal Reserve, is above the law. But this unprecedented action should be seen in the broader context of the administration's threats and ongoing pressure. This new threat is not about my testimony last June or about the renovation of the Federal Reserve buildings. It is not about Congress's oversight role. The Fed, through testimony and other public disclosures, made every effort to keep Congress informed about the renovation project. Those are pretexts. The threat of criminal charges is a consequence of the Federal Reserve setting interest rates based on our best assessment of what will serve the public, rather than following the preferences of the President. This is about whether the Fed will be able to continue to set interest rates based on evidence and economic conditions, or whether instead monetary policy will be directed by political pressure or intimidation. I have served at the Federal Reserve under four administrations, Republicans and Democrats alike. In every case, I have carried out my duties without political fear or favor, focused solely on our mandate of price stability and maximum employment. Public service sometimes requires standing firm in the face of threats. I will continue to do the job the Senate confirmed me to do with integrity and a commitment to serving the American people. Thank you.

[Sam Seder]

So now, again, this is not about Jerome Powell as much as it is about Donald Trump. As much as it is about Donald Trump using the Department of Justice as his personal, sort of like, vengeance tour. Apparently, this is according to Bloomberg, Bill Pulte, that's the guy from the Federal Housing Finance Agency, the director, Bill Pulte. He is the same one who rooted around in mortgage applications to try and get Lisa Cook and also Tish James. But Lisa Cook, who is a sitting governor on the Fed, try and get her fired for cause because of some discrepancy on her mortgage application. We hate those. And Tish James, same thing.

[Jared Brown]

Yep. Tish James and the Comey ones, those were thrown out.

[Sam Seder]

And the Cook one was also thrown out.

[Doug Gordon]

This is Lawfare that Trump ironically ran against. Apparently that was law fair to hold him accountable for like, say, the coup attempt he did in 2020.

[Sam Seder]

So according to Bloomberg, it's Pulte who. Who essentially convinced Trump to another real.

[Jared Brown]

Estate like, centered attack on his critics. I wonder if this could be coming from the mind of Donald Trump.

[Doug Gordon]

I wonder where in Trump's imagination he thinks all of this, like, fraud about.

[Sam Seder]

I get some sense that people lie a lot when they're looking for a mortgage. That's just my sense. So why don't you root around that? Nobody, my guess is nobody ever takes those things seriously and they'll write anything. That's just my guess. I have a. My spidey sense is tingling.

[Jared Brown]

The other character in this is Janine Pirro, by the way. That's her office. That's the one that's Rooting goes to.

[Sam Seder]

D, to doj, goes to Janine Pirro, who is like, you know, probably sitting there going, sounds good. And but here's the thing. Powell now, particularly after this, sending out this, it looks to me like Powell has made a decision about whether he's going to stick around on the board of governors after being chair. He could have left. I get the sense he may stick around a little bit, but we shall see. In the meantime, we've got a lot to talk about about what's going on to the extent that we know in Iran and the rumors that the Trump administration is ready to bomb Iran again. Also, we've got a lot of footage from Minneapolis over the weekend, including the attempt by Congress people to do some oversight of this ICE facility. We will get to that and more. But in a moment, we're going to be talking to Doug Gordon and Sarah Goodyear, host of the War on Cars podcast, about their book written with Aaron Knapperstack, life After Cars, Freeing Ourselves from the Tyranny of the Automobile. We'll read that. We'll be talking to them in just a second. First, a word from our sponsor. How are you resetting your home for the new year to give yourself a fresh start? I'll tell you what I'm doing. I am basically like putting cardboard on the windows and.

[Jared Brown]

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[Sam Seder]

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[Jared Brown]

Same here.

[Sam Seder]

Myra was so excited because she, she was coming home and you know, her bedroom is not exactly like it's a shared, you know, it's New York City apartment living. And she's like dad, will you let me get some new bedding? Because the stuff that she had was really old. It was sort of makeshift. She hasn't been home in a full time way for years obviously. And I had already bought her like a cozy Earth sheets duvet and duvet cover and she was like, damn girl, that's the way she talks now. She was very happy. It was, it's beautiful. She was, she was psyched and just makes her feel like, you know, yeah, I'm happy to have luxury, honestly. And great stuff plus Luxury Bath Towels Indulge in everyday luxury with our luxe bath towel set. So soft and plush. These towels are crafted with a unique blend of cotton and viscose from bamboo using innovative Zero Twist technology. The result towels feel like a gentle hug, drying you off quickly and efficiently with an elevated design that ensures they look as good as they feel, offering exceptional softness and absorbency, making them a must have for your post shower routine. Cozy Earth purchases are risk free. They got a hundred night sleep trial. Try them out. If you don't love them, return them hassle free. They also have a 10 year warranty because once you feel this level of confident, you want it to last a decade. Thanks to Cozy Earth for sponsoring this episode. Start the new year off right. Give your home the luxury it deserves. Make home the best part of Life. Head to cozyearth.com use our code majority report for up to 20% off. That's cozyearth.com code majority report all one word and if you get a poach post purchase survey, be sure to mention you heard about Cozy Earth from this program. Refresh your routines and comfort. It makes every day feel like a new year. We'll put that link in the podcast and YouTube description. Just a reminder, it's your support that makes this show possible. If you want the free show free of commercials, become a member. Join the MajorityReport.com Join the MajorityReport.com okay, quick break. Doug Gordon Sarah Goodyear, Host of the Awards on Cars podcast Authors of Life After Cars Freeing ourselves from the Tyranny of the automobile. Be right back. It's. We are back. Sam Cedar Emma Vigland on the Majority Report. It is a pleasure to welcome to the program Doug Gordon Sarah Goodyear. They're hosts of the War on Cars podcast and they are co Authors with Aaron Knapperstek of Life After Cars, Freeing Ourselves from the Tyranny of the Automobile. Welcome to the program, both of you. Sarah, let's just start with you with the. Just give us the broad strokes on the overall argument that. That you guys are making about cars, because it's not that no one should have cars anymore, is it?

[Sarah Goodyear]

No, it's not that. It is that we have built a society in which owning and operating a car is a requirement for full enfranchisement in the society, and that that is fundamentally inegalitarian and dangerous to our society and our planet in a number of different ways. And what we need to do is we need to minimize car use wherever possible, and especially in cities. We really need to build cities that put people before cars. And if we did that, because cars are at the bottom of a lot of our problems, we would actually be able to make a lot of positive change through those types of actions.

[Sam Seder]

Let's in, Doug, I want you to take us through some of the damage or the tyranny, I guess the car culture. And you grew up in. In. In Massachusetts, as I did. You know, Worcester's a little bit bigger of a city than. Than Andover, but it's still very much. There was not like, you know, there were buses, but there was not that much public transport. I did a lot of bike riding as a kid, but it's very much a car culture.

[Emma Vigeland]

Yeah, I grew up on a cul de sac off of a pretty main arterial Road, Route 28, and there were no sidewalks and like you said, very little in the way of a bus. I did bike every now and then to school, but you're sort of taking your life into your hands. Maybe my parents did make the wisest choice and letting me do that at the time.

[Sam Seder]

And.

[Emma Vigeland]

And you know, that tyranny is. We chose that word in the subtitle very purposely because what it means for something to be tyrannical is like you're always dependent on it or you're always thinking about it. It's never not a factor in your life. We're experiencing that right now in our culture. And, you know, when I was a kid, I was trapped at home until, you know, unless my parents could drive me somewhere until I got my license, when the car was available, when I had my license, as opposed to now, where I live in Park Slope, Brooklyn. And not every place is like Park Slope, Brooklyn, but my kids have tremendous independence to go by themselves, to take the trip, take the subway by themselves, to walk to school. Alone to meet up with friends. So that's the sort of tyranny that we're trying to unleash ourselves from.

[Sam Seder]

I mean, let's. I want to get into the. More of the sort of the damage. But before we do, Sarah, walk us through the. The rise of cars and how we have sort of like, become so dependent on it. I had to, like, at first I thought, like, oh, this is sort of ironic, our last name's Goodyear. And then, you know, from. I. I guess maybe it was from the death of the electric vehicle or something like the sort of the. The supposed conspiracy theory about Detroit and how all the light rail got ripped up essentially from Detroit. I frankly, from just about everywhere at one point or another. And it was Firestone that was in that. But nevertheless, there's a certain amount of irony that your last name has to do with Goodyear. I assume it's ironic, but walk us through sort of like how we have become so car dependent because particularly in the cities, but we had much more of a robust train system, trolley system in this country. I guess now, 75 years ago or so.

[Sarah Goodyear]

Yeah. I mean, you probably won't be surprised to find out that there were major corporate interests that were invested in creating a world in which they could profit from the proliferation of automobile dominance and, of course, the use of fossil fuels. And one of the examples we cite in the book is a show that Groucho Marx, the comedian did called America's Love Affair with the Automobile that was sponsored by DuPont, which at the time had a 23% interest in general Motors. And that whole idea of the American love affair with the automobile, much like the phrase cooking with gas is not some organic phrase that sprung up from the American people. That was a corporate slogan that was promoted in a television show that was very explicitly designed to tell people, if you have problems with this, you shouldn't because it's great and we have a love affair with it. And that came after decades of people pushing back against automobiles often owned by rich people, ripping through their cities, killing children. There was a time in the 20s and 30s when we put up memorials for traffic violence victims that looked a lot like war memorials, because that's how sustained the attack on citizens in the cities was. And it was definitely perceived as elites coming through and just using our neighborhoods as highways. And of course, that still exists today. But after 100 years of being told that this is completely normal and there's nothing to see here, we've kind of lost the narrative. There's nobody alive now. Who remembers a life before cars. So what we're trying to do with the book is to let people know it wasn't always like this. It doesn't have to be like this. There are lots of places that are changing it, and we could be part of that, but there are corporate interests that are continuing to make that seem like an impossibility.

[Jared Brown]

Well, can you talk a little bit about that time period, then? I mean, maybe, Doug, if you want to expand on it just because you. You look at, like, what you had existing cities that changed the way the city was structured or the infrastructure to accommodate the car. But when you go out west and you see, of course, cities with, like, more sprawl, Los Angeles, or even, I think of, like, Houston or something like that, you see how it's very much constructed around the car. So it's so embedded into our infrastructure and into our communities across the country. Just your thoughts on. On that.

[Emma Vigeland]

Yeah, you mentioned Los Angeles. There's a great line in who Framed Roger Rabbit? When Eddie Valiant, the detective, hops on a streetcar and these little kids ask him, hey, buddy, don't you have a car? And he says, who needs a car in la? We have the greatest public transit system in the world. But, you know, we cite an example in the book. There's a really excellent book that we drew from. It's called Fighting Traffic by the historian Peter Norden, who's at University of Virginia. And he tells the story of 1923 in Cincinnati, where the city had actually gained enough public support, 46,000 signatures in favor of an ordinance to limit the speed of automobiles to 25 miles an hour by a mechanical governor, so your car would not be capable of going faster than 25. And the interests of motordom that Peter Norton calls sort of the road builders, the car clubs and all the rest really fought back against this. And they. They sent letters to every registered car owner in the city. They took out ads in the local papers saying that if this went through, it would be equivalent to erecting what they called a Great Wall of China around Cincinnati that, you know, would send drivers and their money and business to Indianapolis and Louisville and other nearby cities. And they fought back. And eventually the ordinance went down overwhelmingly, just because of this sort of corporate propaganda lobbying effort that defeated it. And, you know, we talk in the book a little bit about had it succeeded, maybe we'd be living in a world today where speeds were controlled by GPS or other things, you know, smart technology in your car. So that's just one example. I mean, as Sarah Said there are all of these memorials. Thousands of people marching in the streets, many of them children, they were called. The parents at the time were called White Star mothers, much like gold star families in the military who've lost loved ones in service to the country. There were memorials with the mangled bodies of children. This is in like places like Baltimore, Pittsburgh, all over the nation, because it was seen as this urban assault, this, this monster that was attacking the innocent people of various cities. The New York Times ran a headline, nation roused against motor Killings, with the picture of death, the grim Reaper driving a car over the bodies of women and children. So there was just national outrage at, you know, cars weren't necessary back then. So it was seen as an intruder on our cities.

[Sam Seder]

Has there been like, from a. Have we sort of come back around to that in terms. I mean, there was an era where, I mean, obviously what happens is there's this huge push both from like both a cultural level. I mean, Groucho Marx, you know, when we say a guy promulgated something on a TV show today, it's like, okay, so 50 people saw it. You know, that's the. But back then you're talking like a third of the country is literally tuning into this show. In the 1950s. There's only three, you know, two or three TV shows on at a time. And a third of the country is tuning into this. And so you can really actually like impact the culture with a couple of key spokespeople essentially. And then you have this simultaneous, like sort of a lobbying campaign on the local levels to start pulling back on, on streetcars, on planned trains, etc. Build more roads. And then we get into sort of a. Almost like a purposeful dependency on the car. Like even, like the way that they built the roads in the 50s and 60s and 70s out west, they're so huge. It's like the idea of crossing the street is like, I would never do that. Like, you know, like it's really that big. Do you feel like it's come back around on some level? Like the. That the way that people have organized themselves in some areas has be. It has made the car less important, never mind just nevermind as a. By design, but like just simply less needed?

[Sarah Goodyear]

I think that there are cities, and New York, where we live, is among them, that have really worked hard to improve transit and to improve public space. But unfortunately, I think what we're seeing is instead in a lot of places, public transit systems are being actively defunded and we're being told that we don't have money for public transit. Just kind of like we don't have money for education or health care. And, you know, I think, unfortunately, we're seeing a situation in which, precisely because people are more organized and more aware than ever before of the negative effects that cars have on our communities and especially on the environment. Climate movement has been a huge part of this, that the forces that are in power are certainly kind of running scared at this point, so they're doubling down, and you're seeing a lot of backlash. But I think that's part of an evolution that's happening because the awareness. I've been covering this as a reporter for 20 years, and let me tell you, it used to be so niche. And so I would kind of tell people that I met, you know, in other parts of my life, oh, yeah, I report on transportation policy. I wouldn't come out and say I report on the effort to get cars out of our cities because people just weren't open to it. The change has been enormous. And I think a lot of that has to do with the enormous financial burden that car ownership imposes on the people of the United States of America. In particular, you know, cars have gotten more and more and more expensive. Insurance has gotten more and more and more expensive. You have to buy houses that are farther and farther away from where you work. And I think it's all part of. I think right now what we're seeing is a movement that is bringing together people from the climate movement, from the active transportation movement, and from the affordable housing movement who are really starting to put it together in a systemic way, that these issues are all closely related. And, you know, I always say that a walkable neighborhood in the United States of America has become a luxury good. How can we accept this? You know, the idea that you have to be rich in order to live somewhere where you can walk to the store. How is that about freedom, which allegedly we're so in favor of in this country?

[Sam Seder]

Let's talk about what has, you know, what. Where there have been successes. And before we get there, I'm also curious. Like, it looks like we're not headed towards an electric vehicle future, at least at the rate that we were maybe a year ago, which, frankly, even then was not as quick as it would be if, you know, we just got over the fact that, like, the Chinese seem to have figured out much better than we have. And we should say, like, what's fascinating to me is the relationship between what light rail could do, let's say, in the sort of exurbs in the suburbs and the, the value of an electric vehicle that, let's say, only had 150 miles on a charge. Like, if you could get, like there's a, there's a world where we had light rail going around and you know, parking lots where these electric vehicles are charging is 150 miles, you know, round trip, whatever it is. All of a sudden that's a lot of mileage for what you need if you can go the bulk of the distance on light rail. But talk about where we're seeing or around the world. I mean, you mentioned three different cities. I think it is Ghent in Belgium, Paris and then Emeryville in California. Tell us about, I don't know. Pick one of those, Doug, and let us know and tell us sort of the someone's vision and how it's come through.

[Emma Vigeland]

Yeah, I traveled to Ghent in reporting on the book, and Ghent is a really interesting city because it was as car clogged as any other. They experimented with cars in the post war period and parked cars in their historic plazas and the city was just choked with cars. And starting in the 90s, they started to claw back some space in the historic center. But as time went on into the 2000 and tens through the economic prosperity of that time, the city was getting more crowded and once again was filling up with cars. And the mobility minister there, sort of the transportation director, a man named Philippe Watteau, basically said, like, we gotta do something about this, but we don't have a lot of money. It's a small city of about 260,000 people and we know we don't have a lot of time because the politics of this can change so rapidly. So what can we get done in a short amount of time? Looked at a few European examples, including Groningen in the Netherlands and Copenhagen in Denmark, and said, you know, we're going to try to do a little bit of what they've done everywhere. And so what they did was they divided the city into six sort of sections and there's a big ring road that goes around the city. And they basically said, if you want to drive from section one to section four, you can't cut through the middle of the city. Or if you're just not even doing business in the city, you can't drive through the middle. So what you have to do instead is drive out around and back in. And they did that by reversing some of the directions of some of the streets, closing off other streets and making them bus only, pedestrian only, cyclists only, putting up new signs and cameras and things like that. And when they flip the switch on this plan in 2017, it dramatically increased the amount of people cycling and walking, because suddenly, if you have to drive out around and back in, and it takes 20 minutes, 30 minutes to do that, you might say walking or taking the bus or cycling, it's going to be 10 minutes, 5 minutes, 15 minutes. And cycling went way up, pollution went way down. My favorite experience of that city was it was very quiet, even though there were tons of people wandering about and tons of cyclists going about because all the cars were creating all the noise. And they had a very ambitious goal of hitting. I forget what the exact mode share was for cyclists by 2030. They hit it within two years because as soon as you just got rid of the cars, everyone felt much safer. And it cost them less than 10 million euros to do it, which, you know, you couldn't. You couldn't repair a highway interchange for less than $10 million. So Ghent is a really good example of how a small city that is not Paris, it's not New York, it's not London, can do a lot in a short amount of time with a little bit of money.

[Sam Seder]

What are the other implications, like economic activity downtown? I guess rents. I would imagine it starts becoming a more desirable place to live, and maybe it impacts rents. I don't know what Belgium does in.

[Emma Vigeland]

Yeah, I don't know in the case of Ghent, how it impacted rents. I do know there's more economic activity downtown. And interestingly, one of the biggest beneficiaries of this program has been drivers. Because if you live in the center of the city and you need to drive to your home, if you're an older person who has no other means of getting around now, you don't have all of these people driving through the city, just cutting through on their way from home to work in totally different spaces. And so they have seen travel times from the outer edge of the city to the center of the city go down. It's better for emergency response. Plumbers and other service technicians have found it's easier to make appointments. Very similar to how we're seeing in New York with congestion pricing, where a lot of the early polling is showing that drivers are actually the ones who like it the most.

[Sarah Goodyear]

Yeah. And I believe that the Netherlands, famous for its bicycling infrastructure, is the home to the most satisfied drivers in the world.

[Jared Brown]

Well, you mentioned New York City. Right. And New York copied, I believe, some of the congestion pricing plans in London. And was it. Was Tokyo another Stockholm, Milan.

[Emma Vigeland]

Yes. Yeah.

[Jared Brown]

Oh, okay. Yeah. So, I mean, but when I think about those places, it's just, you know, New York is also unique in having a very robust public transportation system. So part of the problem, I mean, a huge part of the problem, obviously, is that so many of these cities are isolated and not connected to a broader network of transportation, which would require a ton of state and federal investment. Like, how do you take this fight from the municipal level to the federal level?

[Emma Vigeland]

I think there are some cities that it really would work for right now. I mean, of course, with the federal government being what it is, and never would never approve another congestion pricing program. But, you know, Chicago, San Francisco, Boston, you could easily start there. But yes, you're right. You have to really invest in. It's sort of a chicken and egg problem. You'd have to invest in a little bit of transit before you could convince people to get out of their cars. But you need the ridership to justify the transit investments. You know, but there's. There's a lot people could do. You know, I think the Ghent example is a good one, despite the fact that they have excellent, excellent public transportation. Like, a lot of the benefits we're talking about. I mean, Sam, you were talking about electric vehicle range, you know, of 150 miles or 300 miles. Most people in this country are traveling less than three miles. The average trip in this country is less than three miles. That's a distance that could be easily covered on an electric bicycle or a standard bicycle if the infrastructure was there and it was a bit safer to do so. So we're not talking about huge, expensive investments that could get the ball rolling.

[Sam Seder]

Just a little bit, Sarah, talk about, like, how we have gotten to where we are in New York today, because I, you know, I was an early Streets blog reader. I read quite a bit about. By Aaron Knapperstec, who helped you with this book. Literally, when I. 20 years ago, I remember what was a critical mass taking over the streets with bikes on Tuesday nights and occasionally would join in on that. And. And it seems like there's been actually some real progress. But it was, you know, I mean, I remember like Anthony Weiner supposedly when he was running for mayor, before his problem he had with texting came out and he. I supposedly said to. I think it was the city head of transport, like, I'm gonna rip those bike lanes out of. Out of everywhere. That was his. Like, I don't think that was apocryphal. I think that was actually a true story.

[Emma Vigeland]

That's True.

[Sarah Goodyear]

That's a true story.

[Sam Seder]

And. But yet, like, now we have congestion pricing, and there's this sort of sense of, like, within months, it was clear that, like, it completely addressed all of the. Those people who are against seems to have been a, like, raging success. And it feels like we're on the brink of, like. It feels like these decisions are more sort of like, going downhill in terms of, like, the. Or the wind is at the back of these decisions. How did we get there over the course of the past 20 years, particularly going through Covid, where it seems like you would imagine there's less of an interest of, like, being around people when you're sick.

[Sarah Goodyear]

Well, we'll get back to Covid in a second. But, yeah, I grew up in New York using a bicycle for transportation when that was absolutely foolhardy thing to do, considering what the lack of infrastructure was at that time. So I was always skeptical that New York could make these changes. And then during the Bloomberg administration, which I have a lot of issues with the Bloomberg administration, don't get me wrong. But one of the great things that he did was he appointed Jeanette Sadeq Khan as his Commissioner of Department of Transportation, and then he allowed her to do what she knew was the right thing to do, which was to start to take public space back for New Yorkers from automobiles, most visibly in Times Square in a pilot program that later became permanent. And the bike lane network and the planning for a, you know, a rollout of these things that was going to take years. There was a lot of positive action that happened under Bloomberg. We got city bike. You know, all sorts of great things happen. And I saw my city that I never thought would have these amenities and these safety measures for cyclists in place, suddenly became a national and even an international model for that. But then under the de Blasio administration, things slowed down a little bit. And then under the Adams administration, things came to a crushing halt. And indeed, we were backsliding. And one of the main scandals that the Adams administration was involved in was over the McInnes bike lane and the McGinnis Boulevard redesign, which was in response to fatalities in the region. And there was, it seems to be, corruption involved in rolling this.

[Emma Vigeland]

Oh, yeah, Shocking, right?

[Sarah Goodyear]

But what we've seen, you know, what was so inspiring about Mehrmandani's campaign, was that he made public transportation, buses in particular, the most maligned, most stigmatized form of transportation in this country. He made that one of his three central platforms. And by doing so, he said, I believe that bus Riders and all transit riders and all people who don't use cars in this city are worthy of the same dignity and respect and accommodation that people who drive cars are. People who drive cars are not worth more than people who take the bus. And that was the message of fast and free buses for me. And it is resonating around the country. I'm going to say, as we go around the country, touring this book, what we hear from people is just a real excitement about the idea that human beings are going to be put at the center of city planning. And so we saw the mayor, in the first week of his administration, go and address a piece of infrastructure that was notorious here in New York, the Williamsburg Bike Bump. The bike lane coming off the Williamsburg Bridge, which it does into a very dangerous area. And it had this crazy bump that you had to fly over to get off the bike lane. Well, the mayor was there with a shovel, and he did something about that. He needs to still work on the NYPD and they're ticketing in that area, but there's going to be a comprehensive redesign of that, of Delancey street and that whole area. And this is all stuff that could have been happening under Mayor Adams, but he didn't care about 34th street busway. Let's get it going. And you're right, it is downhill, because this mayor gets it. This mayor travels around the city using a bicycle, using the subway, using the bus. And not only that, he believes in and respects and honors and sees as his constituents the people who ride public transportation.

[Sam Seder]

I mean, that last part is also fascinating to me because de Blasio was considered like a outer borough mayor on some level, or at least he came in. But that, at that time, it was about people who were. It was about people who were commuting, but there was a car flavor to it. But it feels like Mamdani has found probably what constitutes a bigger constituency of outer borough community. I mean, which is not to say that's all where his. His support is. I mean, it's been basically pretty broad based, but speaking to that constituency that, like, commutes into the city, but does so, like by public transport, which, you know, once you get out into the outer boroughs, it's probably a bus and then a train. You know, you're going to have to switch. And so the idea of a fast bus at that point makes a big difference in terms of just like, you could save you 10, 15 minutes, you know, both ways. That's a half hour. You know, you're talking about four or Four hours, five hours a week of commuting. That's a, you know, that's a half a day that you could be saving. How much does a change in ideology implicate this particular issue, which in and of itself is not necessarily ideological?

[Emma Vigeland]

Yeah, you know, so much of it comes down to political leadership. And, you know, as much as we really are all about bottom up organizing and really having that movement there, you have. That movement has to keep working so that when you have someone like Imam Dani ready to be the strong sort of benevolent executive, that they're ready to go, you know, Ghent, it was the, it was Philippe Watteo and the mayor above him who said, let's do it. In Emeryville, California, we talk about the former mayor, John Botters, who said, like, no, I was elected to do something like this and I'm going to do this. On Hidalgo in Paris, same thing. She ran on a platform of expanding bikes and public space and was reelected and said, this is what we were promised, we promised to do during the campaign and this is what we're going to deliver on. The referendum was the election. And I think sometimes, you know, we have the election and then we have the fighting over the implementation of the programs. And I think with Mamdani, you're going to see him saying, you know, I ran on this, I ran on making the bus fast and free. The free part's going to be challenging to deliver, but I think the fast part will be a lot simpler than most people think. It's largely just get the cars out of the way, you know, build bus lanes, give them dedicated signal priority where they can get through intersections. But yeah, you know, this should be a nonpartisan issue, right? Everybody, red state, blue state, they love walking in seaside communities or Disneyland or on bike paths and recreational trails. People love this stuff. And it should be, you know, I always say it's sort of like the traditional conservative value. It's independence, self reliance. You don't have to be licensed by the government. You don't have to pay taxes to the government for your vehicle if you ride a bicycle or if you use your own two feet. So it should be nonpartisan.

[Sam Seder]

Well, I mean, I guess I get that it should be nonpartisan in the sense that, you know, Republican, Democrat, but it seems to me that when you're talking about how do we improve the quality of life for the largest constituency in any city or which is going particularly in cities, I guess maybe, maybe there's a different dynamic in the context of the suburbs. But you're talking about People who are broadly working class.

[Emma Vigeland]

And.

[Sam Seder]

You can make things more accessible and easier and literally just like better in some ways without. With almost like with taking away rather than having to add in some ways. I mean, obviously you need to sort of replace. You need to have. But it. That to me seems ideological. And the reason why Mamdani is coming in and doing this stuff is because that was built in to his ideological movement. That was built in there. I mean, how do you deal with it in the context of the suburbs where often it's the reverse, like light rail. Okay. It's going to, you know, might make my commute into the city easier, but my neighbors, I may not like my neighbors now because they have the ability to get into the city.

[Sarah Goodyear]

Well, I mean, this is the thing you have to ask yourself why somebody like Sean Duffy, the current, you know, Secretary of Transportation under this administration, spend so much time demonizing public transportation and saying how terrifying and dangerous it is when of course, 40,000Americans die in car crashes every year. And that's the real danger. Why is it that he's focusing on these things? I really do think that it's a fundamentally anti urban hostility that actually is traced. You can trace it back to Thomas Jefferson, who thought that cities were pestilential and that they had absolutely just that they were sort of a place where sin and so forth would flourish. There's a fundamentally anti urban strain in American politics that goes all the way back. And I think that's what we're seeing here. And I think frankly, it's a big part of what we're seeing happening in the last couple of weeks in Minneapolis, before that in Chicago and before that in Los Angeles and all these other cities. The idea that cities are a robust and pluralistic place where people are free to be themselves and free to express themselves is fundamentally threatening to a fascist regime. And so you often see cities getting targeted. And I do think that the sustained.

[Sam Seder]

It's racialized too, right?

[Sarah Goodyear]

It's absolutely racialized.

[Sam Seder]

Like coming out of Atlanta, like I care. I think it was Atlanta where they're not going to build the football stadium or they're going to. Not going to have a light rail to the football stadium because they don't.

[Emma Vigeland]

Want, you know, people from the transit system there. There had been talks to expand it way back 20, 30 years ago. And the fear was it was going to bring, you know, the wrong people, all kind of code words to those places. So the racial component of it is woven right in.

[Jerome Powell]

Right.

[Sarah Goodyear]

And that goes back to the. To the Beginning, Right. That goes back to the interstate highway system. Because don't forget that the way the interstate highway system was constructed was not just, you know, a poor use of resources in terms of creating sprawl development, but it was also aimed at the cities. It destroyed cities quite physically. And we were just in Houston, they're widening the freeway there. You know, you've got 22, 24 lane freeways and they're still playing let's add another lane for 10 billion or $40 billion. So you know, the, and, and the communities that are being impacted, guess what, are the exact same black and brown communities that were targeted back in the 1950s, 60s and 70s. So you know, it's a fundamentally anti urban movement.

[Emma Vigeland]

Well, I think also the thing about the suburbs too is I grew up like we were mentioning Andover, Massachusetts and there was a little girl who was killed there in the downtown by a truck because it is a main road through the town. And her parents sprung into action and they have done a lot to make Andover a lot safer by saying we should have shorter crosswalks and safer places for people to walk and sidewalks where none existed before. So people move to the suburbs not just because of affordability or whatever, but because they imagine it's safer for them and their, their kids. And like Sarah was saying, you know, but yet all of these people die in crashes. So I think there is an argument, yes, you know, it's going to be hard to get light rail to and from cities and suburbs and really connect these places. But if we can make downtowns sort of traditional American downtowns, I'm sort of using quotes around that safer, I think that will be better for everyone for those short trips.

[Jared Brown]

Well, I think it's not a coincidence that you have white flight and you know, the 19, was it 56 Highway Act, I believe, or all these, you know, the proliferation of the highways and what you're saying, Sarah, in particular, it just, it rings so true to me because I've been saying this for the past like year and a half or so, this fixation on crime and it's really been pushed by our tech overlords on our social media platforms, fits quite nicely with the Trump administration and their kind of fascist project here because three cities are threats via multiculturalism. So if we are going, you know, if we've got to oust these progressive prosecutors, Chesa Boudin, and the tech money's gonna go towards that, we can make our cities into like purely private spaces for the wealthy. That's their agenda. And then the Fascists and the, and the racist in the Trump administration. Their agenda is more racial strife, more division. And that's where suburbia comes into it as well. You have like the New York Post defecation of the right wing MAGA base and it's because they can use urban decay as like a racist trope for, for, for electoral gains.

[Emma Vigeland]

Or think about why the tech industry is always reinventing the bus every few years. Right. It's not because the bus is not efficient. The bus is actually one of the most efficient ways for people to get around cities. Like, why are, why is the tech industry always saying, instead of a bus with, with 40 people on it, we could give you a bus with 10 people on it? It's, it's not because the bus doesn't work. It's because black and brown people and poor people and homeless people ride the bus. And the rich tech folks don't want to be around that. They want to select the people that they can get around with. So I think it combines the sort of like our, our tech overlords and the racialized part of everything that we're talking about and the urban suburban sort of dynamic that's going on as well.

[Sarah Goodyear]

And the rent seeking, the rent seeking aspect of it as well. I mean, you know, it's like, hey, how can we profit off of something that people have been doing for a long time and haven't had to pay a middleman for? Oh, I know, let's make an app for that. Yeah.

[Sam Seder]

Has there, has there been a movement? I mean, you know, we have like, we've had initiatives to, from the federal government to connect everyone through Internet. I mean, it hasn't necessarily gone great in some areas. And the Trump administration just like totally shit canned it in an amazing fashion six months ago with the great big beautiful bill. And they, you know, and there was, there was a lot of false starts in a lot of sort of like learning curve on how we get everyone wired, providing grants. And I'm thinking in terms of like rural areas, but rural areas that, you know, ultimately there's like a small town that focused. And one thing I've noticed, particularly in the context of, let's say upstate New York and maybe more western Massachusetts, where I've had some experience. Experience. You have this small town, there's sidewalks in the small town, but if you go 30 yards out of town, like you can't get there except for a car, like you, you've got to either walk in the, you know, walk in the woods, you can't ride your bike, unless you are really, you know, it takes a lot of guts. You need to have a big, big flag on their back and hope that, you know, these cars because it's 55 miles an hour until you're like 150 yards from the town. And then has there ever been any type of. And is it even worth it, I guess from a federal perspective to sort of say, like we're going to do an initiative where you need to put a bike path slash sidewalk. I don't know. If you have like an area where there's more than 750 people living in a, you know, I don't know, a two mile square area, then you need to have a certain amount of like bike path or sidewalk leading into that area. Is there, has there ever been an initiative like that? Is it worth it?

[Emma Vigeland]

There have been a couple. I mean, unfortunately it was canceled by the Trump administration, but there was the Reconnecting Communities program that would have taken, you know, some of these highways, for example, that, that split communities in places like Syracuse and would have turn them into at grade boulevards or things like that. California has pushed some bills that are forcing towns to build housing near train stations and near transit. That has, that just went into effect this year. So it is happening, but it's very slow going for sure.

[Sarah Goodyear]

Yeah, I mean, I think, Sam, you're absolutely right to call that out as a possibility. We have all sorts of things in our engineering codes that are required and there's really no reason that we couldn't have an evolution toward a more holistic kind of engineering code that really sees streets and roads not as traffic sewers, not as simple conduits for traffic to go through, for car traffic to go through, but instead holistic parts of the community. And I'd just like to add, you know, 30% of people in the United States of America don't hold a driver's license. That includes young people. That includes people with disabilities that prevent them from driving. That includes people who are not documented. That includes also, you know, there are a lot of people who can't drive anymore because they've aged out of it. You know, and frankly, there probably are people who have licenses that shouldn't have them, but the complete erasure of 30% of the people in this country and saying you don't deserve anything except, well, if you're lucky, you'll have a taxi service or a ride hail service or an autonomous taxi that you'll be able to afford the huge costs that are going straight to venture capital that then maybe, maybe, maybe you'll be able to move about your community safely and access the, the resources that are there in terms of employment and education, healthcare and all the rest. But fundamentally, we need to rethink these things. And there has been rethinking going on. And I think it's important for people who care about these issues to remember this is a very long arc that we're in. This is, as I said, it predates living memory. And so right there, you're starting at a disadvantage because you have to help people imagine what things could be like by showing them examples and taking them places where they can see those examples in action. And, you know, yes, right now we are under an administration that is actively working against these values that, that we espouse and that many others do as well. But that's true of everything about this administration. So it's not time to lie down right now. Right now is the time to keep fighting. And I think that people around the country, again, we've been in cities from Portland, Oregon, to Houston, Texas, and Providence, Rhode island, and every city that we go to has really active advocacy groups who are fighting hard. And not only that, there are elected officials who are coming and appearing with us on stage at our shows and showing that they really understand these issues. City council members, state senators. There is a whole new generation of politicians coming up that gets this. And so as we fight our way out of the situation that we're in, we have to be prepared when we do get out of this situation. And I believe that we will and we must, that we are ready to. To take advantage of new generation of leadership and the new generation of voters who actually really get this because a lot of younger people get it and they don't want to live like this anymore.

[Sam Seder]

Sarah Goodyear, Doug Gordon. The book is Life after Cars, Freeing Ourselves from the Tyranny of the Automobile. We'll also link to your podcast, the War on Cars. Thanks so much for your time today. Really appreciate it.

[Emma Vigeland]

Thanks, Emma. Thanks, Sam.

[Sarah Goodyear]

Thanks for having us.

[Sam Seder]

All right, folks, we're going to head into the fun half of the program. Quotes right. And we will have some fun.

[Jared Brown]

Yes.

[Sam Seder]

Just a reminder, your support makes this show possible. You can become a member at. Join themjorport.com when you do, you not only get the free show free of commercials, but you also get the fun half. And you can. I am the fun half on our app. How do you get the app? All you got to do is go to majority app.com choose. Are you an iOS person. Are you a Android person? You click on that link and then you get it for free. And I mean really for free. You are not the product in this. In our app, we do not have no side deals. No side deals. We have no SDK packets. We don't follow you. We don't sell your information to hedge funds or to private equity political campaigns or political campaigns or to betting sites. How the fuck am I even supposed to sell this property? We don't do any of that. And at the very least, at the very least, it's certainly a lack of competency on our part for not doing any of that.

[Doug Gordon]

And effort.

[Sam Seder]

And effort and laziness.

[Doug Gordon]

It's nice when ethics correspond like correlates with a lack of effort because it's not put the effort in.

[Sam Seder]

But we are highly motivated. Then we would have an ethical challenge. But fortunately face with compromise when you're. You're not working. I'm not going to do you serious. I did enough by doing the majority app dot com. That took a lot of effort.

[Doug Gordon]

It's like the COVID relief business. Relief checks. I'm like, I could have got left reckoning in there for that.

[Sam Seder]

It's the back, it's the back end of the website and I've got to put a whole new domain name and then go and forward and do all that stuff. It took hours. I need a nap just from hearing the process. I'm like, I'm almost too tired to say. Also check out our discord@mainvance discord.com again. Another place where we don't monetize or anything.

[Doug Gordon]

And somebody might say like, you know, you say the hours that it would take an effort but you put it over the amount you would get in return. And it's like we don't do math here.

[Sam Seder]

Right, right, exactly. Listen, it wasn't until like 6 months ago that I found out what ROI means. I was like, who's a freaking French guy? Like, what is going on here? So also. Oh, but our merch store, that's where we really, we really suck the life out of you. Check it [e-mail] we got some great merch there. And man, all union made. Union printed and us and we still managed to have good prices. What else? Oh, just coffee co op, fair trade coffee. Use the coupon code majority get 10 off. Matt, what's happening in the matlec? Oh, oh, and before we do that also. Yeah, go ahead, Matt. You telling. I guess something else to plug left.

[Doug Gordon]

Reckoning patrons you know, some of my favorite people out there would have got the Sunday show yesterday, which we talked about Jasmine Crockett and this hot water. Some comedians are saying that she's a little bit self centered, which I think is kind of subjectively true. Although it's not my main problem with her.

[Jared Brown]

The Las Culturistas guy, like, the guys, they had a common sense take on Jasmine Crockett and they're getting raked over the coals for it.

[Doug Gordon]

Yes. And we also talked about Matt Taibbi's new opinion on the Iraq war, which he had a lot of time to, like, express, you know, doing.

[Sam Seder]

We mentioned that the other day too, right?

[Doug Gordon]

Yeah, we did. And with gt, we have another clip of him. Oh, man.

[Sam Seder]

Did you get that one?

[Emma Vigeland]

No, but I can bring it over from Friday.

[Doug Gordon]

Yeah, but about the murder.

[Sam Seder]

Oh, this is even a newer one that I found.

[Doug Gordon]

We discussed the take the oil thing, which he didn't tell, like, you know, you on this show or Amy Goodman. He saved it for his 2026.

[Sam Seder]

I interviewed him like 50 times. He did like three different 2004 and 2024.

[Doug Gordon]

He did like three different media tours about how bad the media was on the war in Iraq and neglected to say that. Oh, yeah, by the way, I think if we're gonna do a war, we.

[Sam Seder]

Should take the oil also, like, again, like, what does that mean?

[Doug Gordon]

Exactly?

[Sam Seder]

Everybody goes down to the town square with their. With their pots and their pans and grab some oil. Mm. I want to plug this. Will you pop this up? I just did. It is an exhibition of artwork by children from Gaza in New York City. It is Taking Place tomorrow 10am to 5:30pm at the Calum Gallery, 526 W. 26th St, Number 315. You can find this on Instagram, but we'll link to it in our podcast and YouTube description. Ms. Rachel writes, the kids of Gaza and I are having an art show in New York City. I'm unbelievably proud of them. They named the show, wrote their stories, shared what this means to them, and of course, created incredible art. You can check it out. It's organized in collaboration with the Voice of Hin Rahab Film, and I think that film is coming out now and folks should check that film out as well.

[Jared Brown]

I've heard a few people who've seen it.

[Sam Seder]

We played, I think, a promo of it a while back.

[Emma Vigeland]

Yeah, One of the executives producers is.

[Sam Seder]

Ahmed Khan, who'll be here with them on Thursday. Oh, okay, great. So you guys can talk about.

[Jared Brown]

I didn't know he was an executive producer. Okay, there you go. So, yes, I've heard. It's devastating. I haven't got an opportunity to see it yet, but everyone should check out that film.

[Sam Seder]

This is the film. This is. You'll recall this story of this little girl who was basically trapped in a vehicle that had been attacked by Israel.

[Jared Brown]

Six year old girl the Israeli government had killed. She was trying to flee, I think with members of her family. They killed everyone in the car except her. She was in the car for hours and hours. Israel then killed the parents on a cell phone.

[Doug Gordon]

We know about it because of that call. And how many times did a similar thing happen where a child couldn't get.

[Jared Brown]

On a phone she was calling. Then they killed the ambulance members, I believe also that were trying to get her and then eventually killed that little girl who was by herself alone, crying out for hours and hours.

[Sam Seder]

California Resistance ims Just saw that film at Palm Springs Film Festival. It was one of the best of the fest.

[Jared Brown]

Yeah.

[Sam Seder]

All right, well, going to give a. Going to take quick break. We'll be right back with the fun half. Three months from now, six months from now, nine months from now. And I don't think it's going to be the same as it looks like in six months from now. And I don't know if it's necessarily going to be better six months from now than it is three months from now. But I think around 18 months out, we're going to look back and go like wow. What? What is that going on? It's nuts.

[Sarah Goodyear]

Wait a second.

[Sam Seder]

Hold on for. Hold on for a second. Emma, welcome to the program. What is up, everyone? Fun half. No, Mickey, you did it. Fun Pat.

[Jared Brown]

Let's go, Brandon.

[Sam Seder]

Let's go, Brandon. Bradley, you want to say hello? Sorry to disappoint everyone. I'm just a random guy. It's all the boys today.

[Jared Brown]

Fundamentally false. No. I'm sorry.

[Sam Seder]

Women. Stop talking for a second. Let me finish.

[Jared Brown]

Where is this coming from, dude?

[Sam Seder]

But dude, you want to smoke this cigarette today? Yes.

[Emma Vigeland]

Hi me.

[Sam Seder]

You're safe. Yes. Is this me? Is it me? It is you. Is this me?

[Doug Gordon]

Hello?

[Jerome Powell]

Is it's me?

[Sam Seder]

I think it is you. Who is you? Help us out every single freaking day. What's on your mind?

[Emma Vigeland]

We can discuss free markets and we can discuss capitalism.

[Sam Seder]

I'm going to go smart. Libertarians. They're so stupid. Though common sense says of course.

[Jared Brown]

Gobbledygook.

[Sam Seder]

We nailed him.

[Jared Brown]

So what's 79, 21 challenge?

[Emma Vigeland]

Man, I'm positively quivering.

[Sam Seder]

I believe 96. I want to say 8572-108550-11238, 911.

[Doug Gordon]

For instance.

[Jared Brown]

$3,400. $1,900.

[Sam Seder]

Five, four. $3 trillion. Sold. It's a zero sum game.

[Jared Brown]

Actually. You're making me think less of.

[Sam Seder]

Wait. But let me say this. You can call it satire.

[Sarah Goodyear]

Sam goes satire on top of it all. My favorite part about you is just.

[Jared Brown]

Like every day, all day, like everything you do.

[Sam Seder]

Without a doubt. Hey, buddy, we see you. All right, folks, folks, folks, folks.

[Jared Brown]

It's just the week being weeded out, obviously.

[Emma Vigeland]

Yeah.

[Sam Seder]

Thund out, guns out. I, I, I don't know.

[Sarah Goodyear]

But you should know, people just don't.

[Doug Gordon]

Like to entertain ideas anymore.

[Sam Seder]

I have a question. Who cares? Our chat is enabled, folks. I love it. I do love that. Gotta jump. Gotta be quick. I gotta jump. I'm losing it, bro. Two o', clock, we're already late and the guy's being a dick. So screw him. Sent to a gulag.

[Jared Brown]

Outrageous.

[Sam Seder]

Like, what is wrong with you? Love you.

[Jared Brown]

Bye.

[Sam Seder]

Love you. Bye bye.