3561 - White House Panicked Over ICE Optics?; Democrats Preemptively Cave w/ David Dayen

Summary

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Podcast Summary: The Majority Report with Sam Seder

Episode 3561 - White House Panicked Over ICE Optics?; Democrats Preemptively Cave w/ David Dayen

Date: January 16, 2026
Host: Sam Seder
Guest: David Dayen (Executive Editor, The American Prospect; Co-host, Organized Money Podcast)
Co-hosts: Emma Vigeland, Matt Leck

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Episode Overview

This episode centers on intensifying ICE operations in Minneapolis and the broader political fallout, including how community resistance, Democratic leadership strategy, and the White House's concern over public perception are shaping events. Sam Seder is joined by David Dayen to analyze why grassroots mobilization is outpacing political leadership and how both parties are responding to mounting pressure against ICE violence and overreach.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. ICE Crackdown and Community Resistance in Minneapolis

• ICE has dramatically escalated operations in Minneapolis, deploying over 2,000 agents in a city of 400,000, resulting in violence against civilians, including shootings and the use of tear gas.
• Community response has been robust, with protests, creative acts of resistance (e.g., pouring water to create ice in front of ICE facilities), and active efforts to document and publicize ICE’s actions.
• Emma Vigeland notes how ICE agents treat non-white protesters and even white allies as "crazy," underscoring deeply rooted institutional racism.

  "They definitely look at anyone who is not white as being lesser... and I do think that they look at the white people who are out protecting their communities as being literally crazy and lunatics." (Emma Vigeland, 05:35)

2. Right-Wing Spin and Threats of Doxxing

• TPUSA (Turning Point USA) and Fox News personalities (like Tom Homan) are pushing for databases to identify and dox ICE protesters, intending to intimidate and dissuade activism.
• Homan:

  “Those people that are arrested for Interference, impediment, assault. We're going to make them famous. We're going to put their face on tv. We're going to let their employers in their neighborhoods, in their schools know who these people are.” (Tom Homan, 10:11)

• The hosts argue this will likely backfire by further galvanizing local support for anti-ICE actions and turning protesters into community heroes, with Sam Seder calling it a "50/50 trade": every doxxed protester, one ICE agent must unmask (10:54).

[Key Segment: ICE Optics & Community Activism]

• 10:00 – 13:00: Discussion of Homan's doxxing threats and why they may backfire.

3. Democratic Leadership: Preemptive Concessions and Political Calculus

• David Dayen critiques the Democratic Party’s lack of willingness to leverage government funding (specifically for DHS/ICE) to rein in ICE, saying there is “no chance” of a government shutdown over ICE funding (23:05).
• Dayen:

  “The accountability measures being held are being conducted by people with whistles and not politicians, and eventually that will filter up. But it's just not the main area of the field of battle right now, is it?” (David Dayen, 25:09)

• Lawmakers like Chris Murphy may talk tough but lack tangible plans. Democrats are motivated to avoid a shutdown, and procedural maneuvers (like continuing resolutions) do not disrupt ICE operations due to large discretionary reserves.
• Dayen notes the political opportunity Democrats are missing:

  “I could go out and say this incredibly unpopular agency that is out there responsible for shooting somebody... we voted against funding this... But they just decided to fund it.” (Sam Seder, 27:57)

[Key Segment: The Futility of Legislative Resistance]

• 22:00 – 29:00: Analysis of why Democrats are not using funding as leverage over ICE actions.

4. The Biden White House: Image Concerns and Policy Paralysis

• Reporting (e.g., Axios) indicates the administration is increasingly worried about the negative optics of violence and chaos associated with ICE operations, recognizing that public outrage could erode their support, despite tough-on-immigration posturing.
• Dayen:

  “These operations have significantly degraded the popularity and the approval rating not just of ICE, but of immigration operations by the President more generally... There's mass chaos in the streets on a daily basis. And at some level, he knows that that looks bad on him.” (David Dayen, 32:56)

5. Trump Administration’s Authoritarian Maneuvers and Mixed Populist Rhetoric

• Discussion on Trump’s repeated threats to invoke the Insurrection Act, which co-hosts characterize as sabre-rattling designed for TV optics, but with awareness of the potential backlash of militarizing American cities.
• Dayen calls Trump’s policy pronouncements “wizard of Oz populism:”

  “It's the words of a con man. I mean, there is no chance that this Republican Congress is going to pass anything that would need legislative action... Everything that Trump has done this first year in office has undermined every single one of these ideas.” (David Dayen, 37:51 & 41:27)

[Key Segment: The Insurrection Act and Trump’s Populist Theater]

• 34:45 – 41:30: Dayen and Seder dissect the hollow nature of Trump’s populist messages and possible escalation with the Insurrection Act.

6. New York City and The Progressive Laboratory

• Briefly, the episode pivots to NYC, where new Mayor Mamdani is assembling a progressive “farm team,” attracting federal talent to implement worker-friendly reforms via existing regulatory frameworks – setting up a potential model for the left nationally.
• Dayen:

  “There’s a lot invested in him in terms of the progressive movement, that they need him to succeed and that they will supply him with the talent and thinking and creative activity that is needed to succeed... There's this desire to get things done immediately, right away.” (David Dayen, 42:19)

• Seder asks about the wider impact; Dayen cautions it's more about political than material effects outside NYC, but a crucial test case.

[Key Segment: Implications of NYC’s Progressive Push]

• 42:00 – 47:40: Political importance of NYC’s new administration as a left laboratory.

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Notable Quotes

• "They definitely look at anyone who is not white as being lesser...and I do think that they look at the white people who are out protecting their communities as being literally crazy and lunatics."
  Emma Vigeland, 05:35

• “We're going to create a database. Those people that are arrested for Interference, impediment, assault. We're going to make them famous.”
  Tom Homan, 10:11

• "They don't seem to understand that these people that they broadcast, they're going to get right wing hate...the community is going to be. He's going to create heroes."
  Sam Seder, 10:54

• "The accountability measures being held are being conducted by people with whistles and not politicians..."
  David Dayen, 25:09

• "These operations have significantly degraded the popularity and the approval rating not just of ICE, but of immigration operations by the President more generally."
  David Dayen, 32:56

• "Maybe I should call it wizard of Oz populism, because it's kind of a little man with a megaphone that has now been exposed to the world who's making these pronouncements that nobody has any faith or belief in."
  David Dayen, 37:51

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Key Timestamps

• 04:59–08:11: Stories of ICE targeting marginalized people and community resistance
• 10:09–11:59: Tom Homan’s “doxxing” threat and analysis of anti-ICE activism
• 21:04–29:22: Interview with Dayen – Democrats' reluctance to fight ICE
• 30:31–34:45: Grassroots organizing vs. media/doxxing; future tactics
• 32:56–36:41: White House reaction to ICE unrest & street chaos optics
• 34:45–41:27: Trump’s Insurrection Act threats and “populism” policy confusion
• 42:00–47:40: NYC’s new progressive administration and its national significance

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Memorable/Funny Moments

• Emma Vigeland’s acerbic analogy:

  "The Trump administration, it's like a box of chocolates. You never know which like hypodermic needle you're gonna bit into..." (04:02)

• Matt Leck’s Fat Albert and Wally Pipp references spark a round of generational jokes about aging and pop culture (13:36, 53:24).
• Dayen’s deadpan on Democratic boldness:

  "I mean, what do you want me to tell you? They're not going to do it." (27:24)

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In Summary

This episode vividly captures the disconnect between grassroots resistance and establishment politics amid a deeply controversial ICE crackdown. David Dayen argues the real leadership is on the streets, not in Washington, as Democrats display preemptive surrender and the White House flounders over optics. The right’s desire to intimidate activists is likely to backfire, creating new local heroes. Meanwhile, New York City’s new progressive administration emerges as a potential model for rapid, tangible reform—if it succeeds. Throughout, the hosts blend sharp analysis, on-the-ground insight, and irreverent humor, making clear that the political battlefield is shifting, with the stakes rising by the day.

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Transcript

[Sam Cedar]

The Majority Report with Sam Cedar where every day's casual Friday. That means Monday is casual Monday, Tuesday casual Tuesday, Wednesday casual hump day Thursday casual Thirs that's what we call it. And Friday casual Shabbat. The Majority Report with Sam Cedar. It is Friday, January 16, 2026. My name is Sam Cedar. This is the five time award winning Majority Report. We are broadcasting live steps from the industrially ravaged Gowanus Canal in the heartland of America, downtown Brooklyn, usa. On the program today, executive editor the American Prospect and co host the Organized Money podcast David Dayen will be with us. Look back on this week that was look forward for the weeks to come. Meanwhile Canada and China strike a historic trade deal on EVs canola and more. So tired of the winning Trump's approval rating in the toilet. Ice's approval swirling around with it. Meanwhile Trump floats Insurrection act and cancellation of elections in response to Minnesotans protecting their communities. Government shut down two weeks away.

[David Dayen]

The.

[Sam Cedar]

Congressional Progressive Caucus backs a bill to redirect ICE money to affordable housing. France Latest European power to warn the US don't try and take over Greenland. Day five of historic nursing strike in New York City. Federal appeals panel reverses and requires Mahmoud Khalil to continue deportation challenges in federal court. El Paso A medical examiner recording shows a homicide committed in an ICE facility. Nobel Peace Prize winning wannabe maduro successor Maria Machado gives her medal to Trump.

[Emma Vigeland]

Give me that.

[Sam Cedar]

Leaked chat of New Hampshire Republican elected officials show a call for whites only schools. All this and more on today's Majority Report. Welcome ladies and gentlemen. Thanks so much for joining us.

[Emma Vigeland]

It is casual Friday.

[Sam Cedar]

Casual Friday indeed. And here we are for another casual Friday. And of course you know it's, it's sort of like, like a pick em today. We don't know over the weekend where folks have a long weekend because the celebration of Martin Luther King Jr's birthday and we could come back on Monday and it could be we've bombed Iran or it could be we have taken over Greenland or it could be.

[Matt Leck]

The.

[Sam Cedar]

Insurrection act and the military is engaged and the military is in Minneapolis. Or really it could be anything else.

[Matt Leck]

Or two of the above.

[Sam Cedar]

It could be all three. Two or three.

[Emma Vigeland]

Yeah. You know what they say the Trump administration, it's like a box of chocolates. You never know which like hypodermic needle you're gonna bit into or whatever people fear monger about is going to be in Halloween candy. That's what the, that's what they're about.

[Sam Cedar]

Tuesday the saying, the saying was Pithier in, in Forrest Gump movie, I should say then. But yes, the point being, who knows? Well, I guess we'll see. In the meantime, yesterday you guys played that clip of the woman who was arrested, a US citizen who was arrested and sort of spoke at a press conference as to her experience when they were arrested and conversation she had with ICE where they were almost surprised that she was not some type of crazy.

[Emma Vigeland]

Right. We didn't hit on that angle as much as which it's a good point to bring that up because there was, you know, we played two clips of people recounting their interactions with ice. Wong was an indigenous man and his relative and I think it was his mother, his aunt. And she was saying that when she told ICE that she was Native American, they said, you're next. And then that other clip we played was them also saying, talking about Renee Goode as a lesbian. And that's what she was getting. And it just, it underscores what the ideology of these guys are.

[Sam Cedar]

Well, they definitely, you know, I think look at anyone who is not white as being lesser an animal, whatever it is. And I do think that they look at the white people who are out protecting their communities as being literally crazy and lunatics. And there seems to be, you know, I guess this shouldn't be surprising, but this is how, for lack of a better word, evil, horrible people operate. They definitely think that they are in the right and it creates a. There's a dissonance with the rest of us. Here's Tom Homan, for instance, on. Or I should say, let's start with this. Here's a frontline tpusa. This is supposed to expose the horribleness on the left that in the way that they're reacting to ICE coming in and brutalizing. I mean, just in the past, like three days they've shot somebody in the leg. This is in the wake of killing someone. They've sent babies to the hospital because they've tear gassed and flashbanged a family just trying to get out of the neighborhood because of all the sort of like battles that were going on. And apparently like TPUSA thinks like this is, when people see this, they're really going to in some way feel sympathy with the ICE folks.

[Emma Vigeland]

So for the podcast audience, you'll see a car with the trunk open, turn down slightly. Yeah, you see a car with the trunk open pouring water out onto the roadway in front of the ICE facility of the ice. So basically knowing, knowing it's freezing and knowing that they're creating more Ice for ice to slip on, which is genius.

[Sam Cedar]

It's a, it's, and let's, let's be clear. It's, you know, it's a two foot swath, you know, I think more symbolic, I think yeah, two, two handfuls of sand would probably take care of it. In terms of vehicles that are going over even, even then, you know, you're not going to get four tires on that thing at any given time. But they're posting it like it's anything other than wow, that is one of the most sort of like reasonable responses to this that you could get to.

[Emma Vigeland]

Left wing terrorism using mother Nature and freezing temperatures as their weapons. While we have like guns that were pointing at you and shooting at you.

[Sam Cedar]

You're not allowed to look at the weather. And here is Tom Homan on with. He's on Fox News, of course with Laura Ingraham who you know, Laura Ingram, this is speaking of fascists. I was gonna say like, I was gonna say like this is Laura Ingraham has had literally had dreams about this moment we're living in. It's been almost like the culmination of her life's work. She even tries to smile during and. But here is Tom Homan with what, with I think a really fundamental misunderstanding of who the people are who are getting out there and how the community is reacting to what ICE is doing this job.

[Tom Homan]

And these people who want to say follow ICE and film ice. You know what, you can protest, they have that right. But when you cross the line and we've proven it, if you interfere or impede or assault license officer, you will be prosecuted.

[Sam Cedar]

I pause it for one second. I'm sorry, I, I can't get through this clip without saying we've left the pa.

[Matt Leck]

What's the cartoon character that talks.

[Sam Cedar]

Like this droopy Elmer font. But he's more, actually he's a lot more than I was. This is like, this is like literally like rocky level articulation at the end of the fight.

[Emma Vigeland]

I mean look, the girly references in My Fair lady where she has to have the marbles in her mouth but it's also an old lady reference and I've got a lot of those too.

[Sam Cedar]

All right, Take it back 10 seconds.

[Tom Homan]

And run it back.

[Sam Cedar]

Good.

[Tom Homan]

They have that right. But when you cross the line and we've proven it, if you interfere or impede or assault license officer, you will be prosecuted. And one thing I'm pushing for right now, Laura, we're going to create a database. Those people that are arrested for Interference, impediment, assault. We're going to make them famous. We're going to put their face on tv. We're going to let their employers in their neighborhoods, in their schools know who these people are. Because as you said, a lot of these people, they say they're taking time off work to protest. I bet you a lot of them are calling and sick. I bet you a lot of their employees don't know what they're doing. But we're going to make sure everybody knows who they are who won't broadcast. They want to broadcast the ICE officer that was nearly killed all over the Internet. We're going to broadcast. Every one of these people we arrest.

[Sam Cedar]

We'Re going to broadcast. Okay, you know what I mean? Here's the thing. And in a second, a heartbeat, I do like a 50, 50 trade here. Every, every person that you broadcast, we get, one ICE guy goes down with his mask. I mean they're all wearing masks and yet all the protesters are out there without masks but for the, protecting themselves from tear gas. They don't seem to understand that these people that they broadcast, they're going to get right wing hate. But their employers are going to, they're going to be employees of the month. They're going to get there like the community is going to be. He's going to create heroes.

[Matt Leck]

Yeah, we hear about the names of these people all the time. Like for instance, when they're blinded by a pepper ball to the eye and we support them and think what they're doing is heroic. Will Stancil, like, has completely redeemed himself in the eyes of us dirtbag leftists by following along these ICE brigades and publicizing their whereabouts. Like it's good to be known for doing this.

[Emma Vigeland]

And I think that this shows though, the fact that he says the database thing, right? We always talk about like what they're projecting and what resonates and what, what lands a blow. And to me it seems like they're concerned about what we're hearing. Like Tim Walls statement was weak and insufficient. But what I did like was the fact that they are trying to set up these databases and massively calling on the population there to like record this and set this up for future prosecution. This should be what every state is doing right now. Baseline, baseline. Because we don't know what they're going to do. I mean they're going to go into Maine in a week or two. They're already showing a presence in Massachusetts. And the question is, is like, which one of our citizens are they Going to come in and murder. Like they talk about Trende Aragua.

[Sam Cedar]

Ooh.

[Emma Vigeland]

Traveling from Venezuela to kill everybody. I mean, these ice gangs are roving through the country and basically doing some sort of like ban tour. And the over under is how many citizens are they going to permanently maim or kill? Make a polymarket bet on it. When they arrive in your town for.

[Sam Cedar]

A little show we can do. My money that we're gonna broadcast big contracts for some of. Let me put it this way, that at one point, probably in two or three years, I'll be sitting on the board of one of these tech companies that we we tasked with building.

[Emma Vigeland]

It's like if dad drank a fifth of vodka. It's the guy.

[Sam Cedar]

It's the guy who had the hat pulled down his head in Fat Albert. Oh, and Fat Albert. Yeah.

[Emma Vigeland]

Oh my God, a Fat Albert reference.

[Sam Cedar]

Yeah, it's been a while.

[Matt Leck]

I tap out on that one, guys.

[Sam Cedar]

Sorry, guys.

[Emma Vigeland]

Was there a remake when I.

[David Dayen]

When we were younger?

[Sam Cedar]

Yes, there was.

[Emma Vigeland]

Okay, I saw that one. Sorry.

[Sam Cedar]

All right, all right. In a moment, we're going to be talking to David Dayan, executive editor of the American Prospect, co host of the Organized Money podcast. First, a couple of words from our sponsors. Our friends up in Vermont at Sunset Lake Sabade.com have just released a fresh crop of their sun grown hemp flower and they're making the occasion. They're marking the occasion with a special deal. Right now. You can save 30% on their Hawaiian Haze and cherry abacus, hemp flower and pre rolls. Hawaiian Haze is a sativa cultivar, really popular with folks who want to stay focused during the day, work on a creative project, or just take the edge off without getting slowed down. Cherry abacus, on the other hand, goes in the other direction. It's an indica cultivar. It's much more about winding down, relaxing with a book, or easing into bed at the end of the day. This deal also applies to Sunset Lake Sabade's vape cartridges, which are ideal for situations that require a little more discretion. If you want to check out their new crop, head over to sunsetlakesebade.com use the new the code new flower, all one word, new flower. To get 30% off their new crop of hemp flower and vape carts. I'm not gonna lie. Been hitting these pre rolls a little bit harder these days. Also helps with dry January, although I have to also admit that it has not been dry January for me. But the good news is they don't use pesticides when they grow this stuff. They use integrated pest management. They have great farming practices, they have great business practices. They're movement partners. They've donated tens of thousands of dollars to things like strike relief funds and carceral reform, Planned parenthood and immigration resettlement. And I mean just on and on, just an all around great company, great product. You're gonna enjoy this. If you've never tried a pre roll or any of their flower, you should check it out. Code again is new flower at SunsetLake. Sabadeh.com sale runs through January 18th. You got two more nights, 11:59pm Eastern. As always, see the site for full terms and conditions. Also sponsoring the program today. Well, incidentally, we'll put that link in the podcast in the YouTube descriptions. Also sponsoring the program today. A huge time saver, but also like guilt saver and also like just tasty. You have a new year, you're a little stressed out. Maybe, maybe you just don't like to cook. Maybe you don't have time to cook. You want to eat better. Maybe you want your kid to have like a tastes like a home cooked meal. That is my case. Well, two minutes real food and done because of factor. Factor knows you're motivated to eat better and they take care of the reason you don't. Honestly, like I never understood the microwave until we got factor. You order it the week before comes on a Tuesday. At least it does for me. And three or four meals for the week times two in my instance. And Saul and I are eating well and it takes so little time. No cleanup. I've had. We're into like shredded uh, like chicken and shredded beetle lately we had like a, like a shredded chicken with corn and it was like a, some type of like garlic sauce over the broccoli. Eats it. He eats it. He loves it. I had a shredded like beef with.

[Tom Homan]

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[Sam Cedar]

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[Emma Vigeland]

It.

[Sam Cedar]

We are back. Sam Cedar, Emma Vigeland on the Majority Report. Joining us now, David Dayan, executive editor of the American Prospect, co host of the Organized Money podcast. David, welcome back to the show.

[David Dayen]

Thanks for having me.

[Sam Cedar]

Let's start with the piece you just wrote. I guess it was, I don't know in the last day or so, maybe it was today what a people powered movement looks like in terms of what's going on in Minnesota. Minnesota, you know, feels like they were ready for this in many respects in Minneapolis. I mean, I don't think we're necessarily ready for people to be shot within days of ice's arrival. And I don't know if we have. We've seen this level of like, of an invasion. Right. We're like over 2,000 ICE agents for a city of maybe 400,000. It's pretty dramatic. And you made the point in your piece that, you know, this is what it's going to take. It's going to take people responding as opposed to politicians.

[David Dayen]

Yeah, I don't think we should really expect politicians to know how to respond to this kind of occupation historically, you know, I sort of related civil rights movement where you saw people, you know, have to move the politicians to act rather than the politicians being out in front of the parade.

[Sam Cedar]

And I mean what should the expectations be at this point? I mean, you know, we're, we're three weeks, two weeks away from a government shutdown or potential one. Not if, you know, Schumer and Jeffries have really expressed the desire to avoid one. But to the extent that there's any leverage that sort of feels like it?

[David Dayen]

Yeah, I don't think there's any chance of a government shutdown. You know, the difference would be whether they. Sorry about this. Whether they move to do a full year funding of the Department of Homeland Security or just a continuing resolution on funding for the year, which, you know, wouldn't have any changes from the 20, you know, fiscal year 2025. That's. That's a real non. Distinction for anyone who doesn't understand Washington. The reality is in the last shutdown, ISIS operations didn't change. They continued to, and they continued to work, even with the ICE agents getting paid because there was money in the big, beautiful bill that was dedicated to removal and enforcement and there was no way for, you know, Congress to really do anything about that. So, you know, the idea that a stand, you know, first of all, they've written out the idea that a Stan could be taken over DHS funding. The thing that they've retreated to is sort of not even a real distinction. And even if they did, ICE would continue to operate and it's. People would be paid.

[Emma Vigeland]

Well, people. A sense. Well, I just want to know who the players are here, though, when you say they just. If you could. Like, like. I mean, I know Chuck Schumer has essentially ruled it out, but who are the voices that are trying to maybe push them to adopt a stronger stance or hold DHS funding hostage in trying to rein in ice?

[David Dayen]

Yeah, I've seen Chris Murphy talk about, you know, in various places that he wouldn't give any money to, you know, an unaccountable ice. But, you know, what would these accountability measures even mean? I'm not sure it would be a whole lot of anything to me. I, as you know, it's easy to sit here and get frustrated about that, but I don't actually think it matters. I think that the accountability measures being held are being conducted by people with whistles and not politicians, and eventually that will filter up. But it's just not the main area of the field of battle right now, is it?

[Sam Cedar]

I mean, I mean, I would agree with that, and we'll pivot that to that in a second. But what's the cost associated with, let's say, I mean, because as far as I can tell, and maybe you can walk us through this, the differences here.

[David Dayen]

The.

[Sam Cedar]

The House has already passed, I think, at least one funding bill that would deal with about half a dozen agencies.

[David Dayen]

Epa, I think Senate. The Senate passed that as well.

[Sam Cedar]

Yes, Senate passed that.

[David Dayen]

Well, so, you know, we've got, I believe, seven of the 11 appropriations bills over the President. So that's full year funding. Three others are ready to go and they probably will after Senate and House are on a week break next week because if there's one, a one day holiday, they get the whole week off. That's how it works. If you work in government, it's pretty good. So next week they'll come back, they'll do that other three bill thing. And the only thing at issue will be the Department of Homeland Security, that particular appropriations bill that handles that.

[Sam Cedar]

And I mean, at that point, like what's the cost associated for, you know, you know, the House or House Democrats or Senate Democrats to refuse to pass it?

[David Dayen]

I mean, what do you want me to tell you? They're not going to do it.

[Sam Cedar]

No, I know, but I'm just curious as to like what from there not.

[David Dayen]

Going to do it, what's the cost? But I mean, if you think about it, what's the benefit? Right? I mean, okay, they say we're not going to pass Department of Homeland Security funding and then ICE continues to go out on the streets. They have a ready reserve of $75 billion that was already passed by Congress last July they can draw on for continuing enforcement and removal operations. So what's the benefit?

[Sam Cedar]

Well, the benefit is I could go out and say this incredibly unpopular agency that is out there responsible for shooting somebody in the face and how whatever other atrocities, frankly, that it seems inevitable they're going to commit over the course of the next, I don't know, 11 months, I can say we voted against funding this. They have been using slush funds to keep them afloat. But understand that what they're doing is fundamentally un American. I mean, just put, you put in the political rhetoric, it at least gives you some indication to the American public we don't agree with what's going on here as opposed to we just, we decided to fund it.

[David Dayen]

I don't disagree with you, but I don't think that's going to sway anybody. If you look at this sort of in a results oriented scenario, you probably have a bunch of senators saying, well, the result is either ICE continues or ICE continues. So why should I take a stand? I'm not saying it's my, you know, my, my take on it, but I.

[Sam Cedar]

Just don't understand what they, what they, what they think is the, the downside in that instance.

[David Dayen]

Right.

[Sam Cedar]

All right, so let's talk about what's going on in, in the, the streets. I mean, I guess this is a question we got to look for organizing to happening Wherever ICE ends up showing up, what do you think the reaction is going to be with the media if, like, we start to see maybe more doxing of ICE officers? I know there's a. Seen a video out now of folks who got ahold of documents in one of the ICE vehicles where these ICE guys took off because they were surrounded by protesters. I mean, you know, if I was to have an ask from a funding standpoint or really anything, is to get rid of the masks, because then this practice of, like, of holding them accountable, at least socially, it'd be much more effective. I'm curious as to, like, what. What kind of tactics you are anticipating as we go forward?

[David Dayen]

I mean, I guess just more of the same. So we've. We've seen that while individual ICE agents have been willing to shoot or be brutal, I don't know if they're willing to shoot en masse if there are 50 people, 100 people, 200 people out there. And it seems to have had a definitive impact on the number and frequency of operations and whether or not they can be concluded. So I don't. I don't see really any differences. I think the goal, not just sort of the assumed goal, but the stated goal of the murder of Renee Goode was to back everybody off. I mean, there have been multiple incidences of ICE agents saying, didn't you learn anything from what we did to that woman? And the only thing that's been learned is a greater determination to continue to get out there and throw sand in the gears. So ICE kind of sees this miscalculation. They were hoping that what they were doing would lead to compliance, and it hasn't. And now they're kind of stuck because.

[Sam Cedar]

They'Ve set the bar for their behavior. What do you do? I mean, do you. Occasionally I'm reading, like, you know, in some of this sort of like Puck news headlines or Axios or whatever, you know, that there is concern in the White House. Do you think that's the case? I mean, do you think they really, like, you know, we just played a clip of Tom Holman, who thought that, like, he's gonna make a database and promote the names of people who have been, you know, protesting ice. And from my perspective, it's like, you're just going to make a lot of people rich with GoFundMes and, you know, like, they're going to be. They're going to be heroes. What's your sense about what's going on in there?

[David Dayen]

I don't know that I have a big sense of it. What I do know is that this, these operations have significantly degraded the popularity and the approval rating not just of ice, but of immigration operations by the President more generally. You know, you mentioned Axios. The thing I saw that they came out with today is that the President himself and his staff are concerned that this doesn't look right. You remember that in 2020, one of the reelection talking points for the President was that if you elect Joe Biden, there would be mass chaos in the streets on a daily basis. This was at a time when there was mass chaos in the streets on a daily basis. And now after his reelection, there's mass chaos in the streets on a daily basis. And at some level, he knows that that looks bad on him because ultimately, as the I alone can fix it guy, he is responsible for the attitude that is happening. And while, you know, there's sort of a popular belief that you have to assume that these guys are just unspeakably cruel and actually like it when there is this kind of unrest happening that it can facilitate, whether it's the invocation of the Insurrection act or some sort of military occupation or whatever. I think deeper down, they realize that this isn't the way to go.

[Emma Vigeland]

The Insurrection act, the Insurrection act is important. Right? Trump is continuously flirting with that idea. What do you think it takes for that them to finally go full bore with the Insurrection Act? Because it feels like that's their big red button. And they know that the courts may have a. May, you know, throw some sand in their gears, but they're not exactly sure how it'll play out. It's just like that's their number one card to play, is my feeling about it.

[David Dayen]

Well, they, you know, there was already a Supreme Court ruling that prevented them from federalizing the National Guard that wasn't using the Insurrection Act. Of course, if they did, they could both either federalize the National Guard or use US Military troops on American soil. The last time it was used was 1992 during the LA riots after the Rodney King verdict.

[Emma Vigeland]

So.

[David Dayen]

You know, I think there's some sense out there that that ruling by the court has forced them to take this extra step, or that in their minds, they feel like they don't have any other recourse. But Trump has also threatened this like four or five times, and it hasn't actually happened. And I think it goes back to sort of how he rules by images on tv. And the image on TV of military rolling through an American city is as much as maybe his lizard brain wants that, I think he recognizes that that would bring us into a new level that would be even more unpopular.

[Sam Cedar]

And part of. I think what enforces that perspective is what you wrote in his music, man, populism. I mean, he seems to be. It's sort of funny when Trump starts to roll out policies that there's no apparatus, there's nobody else seems to be aware of what he's doing, but he starts to throw this stuff out because on some level, it just sort of feels like. And nobody's going to believe it anymore, but he's come out with a new health care policy, which is essentially HSAs. He said he was going to cap credit card bills. What is this, like, him panicking and what's going on around him as he throws out these sort of these policy prescriptions, which, you know, capping the credit card bill. It's been proposed before, it's been voted on, I think, in the Senate, and we haven't got it, but it seems like a decent idea. But nobody else around him seems to be even remotely interested. I think Hassett said that's more of a concept.

[David Dayen]

Yeah, Maybe I should call it wizard of Oz populism, because it's kind of a little man with a megaphone that has now been exposed to the world who's making these pronouncements that nobody has any faith or belief in. So maybe it's that, but either way, it's the words of a con man. I mean, there is no chance that this Republican Congress is going to pass anything that would need legislative action, whether you're talking about, you know, capping credit card interest rates or whether you're talking about, you know, banning corporate investors from purchasing homes. But even going a step further than that, everything that Trump has done this first year in office has undermined every single one of these ideas. The CFPB has been dismantled, and before they left, they reversed a ban on credit card late fees. The Discover Capital One merger that will almost certainly lower competition and increase credit card interest rates, which was waved through by Trump's antitrust regulators. And you can go down the line with every single one of these proposals that he's made, and he's made many. That there's something on the other side. Another good one is he said that no defense contractor can give dividends or buybacks unless they start delivering stuff on time and on budget. And then literally hours later, he called for a 50% increase in the military budget to $1.5 trillion a year. And so it's just. Yeah, you end up tuning it out because it's so ridiculous.

[Sam Cedar]

It sort of feels like someone should maybe just collect all those and put them on the agenda of whatever presidential candidate is running as a Democrat in 2028. Because a lot of them at least sound pretty good in principle, it seems to me. What's his theory? That if he just says it, that it's going to get him support. I mean, I just don't understand, like, what, how they're, like how they think this is going to be helpful in any way.

[David Dayen]

Well, first of all, Trump's ruled by declaration for the first year of this term. And so, you know, it wouldn't be that big of a stretch for him to think that if I just say it, it becomes willed into being that the institutions will line up and either voluntarily or in some other manner, give him what he wants. That's how it's worked for several months now, or at least that's how he perceives it to have worked. And, but, you know, so. And the other thing is just sort of this belief in this stupidity of his own audience that if he says something, that they'll believe it's true because he has the bigger megaphone. So I think it's a combination of that.

[Sam Cedar]

Let's talk to some about something that's a little bit more cheery. New York City. And both you've written about Mamdani's more or less the first week. Also, a couple weeks ago, you noted that in terms of his appointments, characterize his appointments in the context of outside of New York City, because to me, it feels like almost like a version of what the center for American Progress tried to do in, like, 04, in having, like, a Clinton administration in exile. It's almost as if, like, Mamdani is like, main, you know, keeping people in the game essentially for the future.

[David Dayen]

Right. I mean, I think there's. There. You can look at it a couple different ways. So on the specifics, the deputy mayor for economic justice was a former cabinet member of Joe Biden. So that's the Labor. Former acting Labor Secretary Julie Su, and she joined the Mamdani administration. So that's going from the federal to the municipal level. Similarly, the head of the Department of Consumer and Worker Protection, which is an agency in New York City, is now run by Sam Levine, who was the former head of the Bureau of Consumer Protection under Lina Khan. And, of course, Khan was on the transition team for Mamdani, and she may take an even broader role now that transition is over. I don't think that's been fully decided yet. So one thing that you see, I think, yes, there's sort of a farm team that's hanging out in New York City, but also it's a recognition that this mayor, there's a lot invested in him in terms of the progressive movement, that they need him to succeed and that they will supply him with the talent and thinking and creative activity that is needed to succeed, and to succeed not just in the political fights that are going to have to be taken. And he's, to his credit, already succeeded in one big one, getting Kathy Hochul to agree to an investment on the first two years of universal child care. But also there's this. This desire that instead of, you know, sort of waiting for those political fights to bear fruit and, you know, sort of telling your constituents to be patient, there's this desire to get things done immediately, right away. And that is what the regulatory structures that are already in place, using existing laws in the city of New York can do. And so, in his first week or so, Levine has cited some delivery companies for shortchanging workers on tips and even singled out one of them in particular. I don't remember their name, but the idea is to use what's already available so that there is sort of an immediate, tangible difference in terms of how people experience New York City.

[Sam Cedar]

Talk about the different layers in which this can impact, because we can have that direct impact on the material lives of New Yorkers. And like you say, they're using pre existing authorities to do this first. I imagine there's going to be an attempt to expand that maybe as we go down the road, how much of what happens in New York City, I mean, for instance, how much of what happens in New York City can impact on a national level, either by example or by just simply the force of it being the hub of where finances and where a lot of business travels through. For instance, California, they raise their CAFE standards, then the car companies just all end up setting those new standards anyways because California is such a big market. How much of that exists and then how much sort of the third potential impact would be on the political direction of the party, particularly in the wake this week of Warren coming out and sort of putting down some markers. Just give me your sense of those last two, like how much what happens in New York can actually materially impact the rest of the country and politically, how much of an impact it'll have.

[David Dayen]

I think the effect's more political than material. You know, every jurisdiction is kind of different, has different laws. I mean, New York happens to have this unconscionability law around deceptive business practices. And that's not really something that you can extend to the rest of the country. So I'm not sure about material, but politically, absolutely. I mean, I think that the idea here is that the left wing of the party scored this impressive victory politically, electorally, and now they have to show that they can govern. And I think everything that Mandani has done to date has reflected that, that there is this real foregrounded sort of awareness that, that that has to be at the center of everything I do.

[Sam Cedar]

I mean, so far, so good. Yeah.

[David Dayen]

Yeah. I mean, you know, it's, it's early days, and we'll, we'll see how the business community reacts. And there hasn't been sort of any kind of stumble on other things that may sidetrack from this goal or series of goals, whether it's on policing or on, you know, other issues. But, you know, I think there, there's just a real, a real desire to govern and you know, and sort of rewrite the, the things that, you know, kind of the good things that were done under the Biden administration, rewrite the way that those are presented to the public and articulated. I think that's, you know, another thing that they're looking to do.

[Sam Cedar]

What, lastly, what did you make of Warren's speech, of the timing of it? I mean, it's just, it's a curious time to do this. Maybe it's geared towards the budget process or what's your sense?

[David Dayen]

I didn't read it. I didn't see it. And I think I'm not alone in the country in saying that I was baffled by it. I don't think these factional facts matter anymore. I think a woman was killed in Minnesota, and the order of the day is not where you're going to pitch your economic argument in 2028. I don't understand it.

[Sam Cedar]

Fair enough. David Dayen, always a pleasure. Folks can obviously encourage everybody, head over to the American Prospect, check out Organized Money. David. Dan, thanks so much for your time today, bud.

[David Dayen]

All right, thanks.

[Emma Vigeland]

Thanks, David.

[Sam Cedar]

All right, folks, we're going to head into the fun half of the program. Had some real fun. It's Friday.

[Matt Leck]

Oh, yeah, some fun. David Frum having fun?

[Emma Vigeland]

I don't want to think about that. We could talk about another David. David Plouffe. I mean, I texted you that I mentioned it briefly on the show yesterday, but that even David Plouffe, the Democratic strategist that pivoted Kamala Harris to the center, is writing in the New York Times that candidates should say they oppose Jeffries and Schumer as leader and leaders.

[Sam Cedar]

Is not by name, but they say they should run against the leadership, which.

[Emma Vigeland]

Well, I mean, it's David Plouffe. He's going to half measure it, but yes.

[Sam Cedar]

And people, you know, to be fair, a lot of people ran against Mitch McConnell for a long time and Mitch McConnell was able to stay in power basically, you know, even past the point where he was literally freezing at a podium. But it is interesting that that's speaking to it. But I guess the order of the day is less like, is more about, you know, what we're going to be doing in different communities across the country. But nevertheless, these fights continue. We can talk about David Plouffe in the fun half.

[Emma Vigeland]

I don't know, I just. We were in want to round out the David trifecta.

[Sam Cedar]

I seem to remember I had some type of weird argument with him on Chris Hayes program. Not weird. Yes. I don't know. Or maybe it was just on Twitter. I can't remember exactly. But it was something to the effect of like prior to Harris's campaign back in the day where it was like, you did this. Yeah, but I think that might have been years and years ago. Anyways, folks, it's your support that makes the show possible. You can become a [e-mail] when you do not only get the free show free of commercials, you also get the fun half. Also just coffee, co op, fair trade coffee, hot chocolate. Use the coupon code, majority get 10% off. Matt, what's happening in the Mat Leck media universe?

[Matt Leck]

Yeah. This morning, a brand new Jacobin show with Neela Tabrizi and Gene Bajalon. We covered one of the possible outcomes for this long weekend which is a intervention in another intervention in Iran with Nilou and Gene, longtime friend of the show Gene. Talk about that. And Eugene Jeb. Eugene Deb. So if you're not subscribed to Jacobin on YouTube, go subscribe and check out David and I's Jackman show. Well, oh, I was also on the American Prestige podcast. So yeah, Danny Bestner, who was under the weather, I believe, with a strep throat. So feel better, Danny. And go check out me with Derek Davison.

[Sam Cedar]

Oh, that's a, that's a real Wally Pip moment.

[Emma Vigeland]

Can't recommend that podcast enough, by the way, even before Matt was on it. It's if you know, when we have big foreign policy stories breaking. That's my listen on the subway into the show just to make sure I have my I's dotted and my T's crossed.

[Matt Leck]

Very smart show.

[Emma Vigeland]

Yep.

[Sam Cedar]

No one's gonna even react to the Wally Pip thing.

[Matt Leck]

I'm Googling. Wally Pip?

[Emma Vigeland]

Yeah.

[Matt Leck]

I haven't seen a lot of black and white photos and 1893 he was born, so.

[Sam Cedar]

Yeah.

[Emma Vigeland]

Would you prefer that we age you or would you prefer that we just move on?

[Sam Cedar]

I was not alive in the 1800s. Brian, I'm sure that you. You're aware of. Wally Piper was a first baseman for the Yankees. He got sick and then Lou Gehrig took his. His, his, his, his position for that day and then Wally Pip was done. That's all I was saying. Never missed a game until he retired. Yeah, I don't think that's what's going.

[Matt Leck]

To happen on American prestige, but.

[Sam Cedar]

Well, that was. That was the joke. Matt the Iron Man. I just do. I do want to read this. Pablo Torres reporting that Senate Dems are reportedly offering ICE funding increases in exchange for body cams and de escalation training for agents. I don't know if they mean by funding increases or they mean just literally the funding. Unclear if no mask requiring ID badges and no immunity is on the table.

[Matt Leck]

Get in the streets, folks.

[Sam Cedar]

Oh, without a doubt. But it. It would be nice to think that at least somebody's going to take some political advantage of this. But we can talk more about this.

[Emma Vigeland]

Dan's probably right.

[Sam Cedar]

I mean, in the fun half we will.

[Emma Vigeland]

Jesus.

[Sam Cedar]

All right.

[Emma Vigeland]

We'Ll see.

[Sam Cedar]

In the fun house. Maybe we'll take. Oh, I guess he had a nice career with the Cardinals after being replaced.

[Emma Vigeland]

Well, that makes me feel so much.

[Sam Cedar]

Better about what we see you in the fun half. Oh, incidentally, on. On Monday, of course, Martin Luther King Jr. Actually, not his actual birthday, but the day that we celebrate his birthday, we will have our a traditional compilation of MLK speeches, interviews, reactions to his assassination. So if you're listening to live show, we will see you. We will be back live on Tuesday, but right now we're gonna be live in the fun half. Also, it actually is his birthday this year. Oh, it is looking up. It says January 19th.

[Matt Leck]

Well, that's Google, so.

[Sam Cedar]

No, Google's wrong. That's wrong. Google's wrong.

[Matt Leck]

Well, AI will be 1000% better in just three months. So we'll have the right birthday for Martin Luther King.

[Sam Cedar]

I killed like four trout to get some bad. Three months from now, six months from now, nine months from now. And I don't think it's gonna be the same as it Looks like in six months from now, and I don't know if it's necessarily gonna be better six months from now than it is three months from now, but I think around 18 months out, we're gonna look back and go like, wow. What? What is that going on? It's nuts. Wait a second. Hold on. Hold on for a second. Emma. Welcome to the program. Fun Half. Matt. What is up, everyone?

[Emma Vigeland]

No.

[Sam Cedar]

McKee.

[David Dayen]

You did it.

[Sam Cedar]

Fun Half.

[Emma Vigeland]

Let's go, Brandon.

[Sam Cedar]

Let's go, Brandon. Fun path. Bradley, you want to say hello? Sorry to disappoint everyone. I'm just a random guy. It's all the boys today.

[Emma Vigeland]

Fundamentally false. No. I'm sorry. Women.

[Sam Cedar]

Stop talking for a second.

[Emma Vigeland]

Let me finish. Where is this coming from? Dude?

[Sam Cedar]

But. Dude, you want to smoke this c. Yes.

[Tom Homan]

Hi.

[Sam Cedar]

Me?

[David Dayen]

This thing?

[Sam Cedar]

Yes. Is this me? Is it me? It is you. This is me.

[David Dayen]

Hello?

[Sam Cedar]

It's me. I think it is you. Who is you? No sound. Every single freaking day. What's on your mind?

[Emma Vigeland]

Sports.

[David Dayen]

We can discuss free markets and we can discuss capitalism.

[Sam Cedar]

I'm going to go paradise. Libertarians.

[Matt Leck]

They're so stupid.

[Sam Cedar]

Though common sense says of course.

[Emma Vigeland]

Gobbledygook.

[Sam Cedar]

We nailed it.

[Emma Vigeland]

Doing. So what's 79? 21.

[Sam Cedar]

Challenge.

[Matt Leck]

Man.

[David Dayen]

I'm positively quivering.

[Sam Cedar]

I believe 96. I want to say 857. 210.

[Emma Vigeland]

501.

[Sam Cedar]

1/2. 3, 8, 9.

[David Dayen]

11. For instance.

[Emma Vigeland]

$3,400. $1,900.

[Sam Cedar]

$543 trillion. Sold. It's a zero sum game.

[Emma Vigeland]

Actually. You're making me think less.

[Sam Cedar]

But, but let me say this. Call it satire.

[Emma Vigeland]

Sam goes in.

[Sam Cedar]

Satire.

[David Dayen]

On top of it all.

[Sam Cedar]

My favorite part about you is just.

[Emma Vigeland]

Like every day, all day, like everything you do.

[Sam Cedar]

Without a doubt. Hey, buddy. We see you. All right, folks, folks, folks.

[Emma Vigeland]

It's just the week being weeded out. Obviously.

[David Dayen]

Yeah.

[Sam Cedar]

Sun's out, Guns out. I, I, I don't know.

[Emma Vigeland]

But you should know.

[Sam Cedar]

People just don't.

[Matt Leck]

Like to entertain ideas anymore.

[Sam Cedar]

I have a question. Who cares?

[Matt Leck]

Our chat is enabled, folks.

[Sam Cedar]

I love it.

[Emma Vigeland]

I do love that.

[Sam Cedar]

Gotta jump. Gotta be quick. I gotta jump. I'm losing it, bro.

[Matt Leck]

Two o'.

[Emma Vigeland]

Clock.

[Sam Cedar]

We're already late and the guy's being a dick. So screw them. Sent to a gulag.

[Emma Vigeland]

Outrageous.

[Sam Cedar]

Like, what is wrong with you?

[David Dayen]

Love you.

[Sam Cedar]

Bye.

[Matt Leck]

Love you.

[Emma Vigeland]

Bye.

[Sam Cedar]

Bye.