3572 - Trump's DOJ; America's Forgotten War w/ Jamie Holmes

Summary

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Podcast Summary: The Majority Report with Sam Seder

Episode 3572 — Trump’s DOJ; America’s Forgotten War w/ Jamie Holmes
Date: February 3, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode blends sharp political analysis with an in-depth historical interview. The first half riffs on the current dysfunctions in Trump’s Department of Justice, new details on the Jeffrey Epstein case, and larger themes of governmental corruption and accountability. The second major segment features an interview with Jamie Holmes, author of The Free and the Dead: The Untold Story of the Black Seminole Chief, the Indigenous Rebel in America's Forgotten War, uncovering the hidden history of the Black and Native resistance during the Seminole Wars in Florida.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

I. Trump’s DOJ and Weaponized Justice (04:00–17:45)

• Shifts in DOJ Power Structure

  • Ed Martin, former DC US Attorney, demoted to a minor DOJ position, signaling intra-crony power struggles. Speculation on Pam Bondi’s decreased visibility, perhaps due to mishandling Epstein files or falling out of favor.
  • Todd Blanche, former Trump defense attorney, is now Deputy Attorney General, raising serious questions about DOJ independence and priorities.
  • Sam Seder (06:44): “It does suggest that there has been some… power balance within the DOJ that has changed. I don’t know how relevant it is—just one set of cronies versus another…”

• Epstein Docs & Accountability

  • Many Epstein documents were removed after accidentally revealing victims' names. There's a perceived lack of commitment to genuine investigation or justice.
  • Todd Blanche’s FOX News appearance: Blurs lines between ‘partying with Epstein’ (legal) and actual crimes (child abuse/trafficking). Deflects responsibility, despite public evidence and victim willingness to cooperate.
    • Notable quote (Todd Blanche, 10:13): “It is not a crime to party with Mr. Epstein… But if we have evidence that allows us to prosecute… you better believe we will.”
    • Emma Vigeland reacts (10:51): “What do you mean you need witnesses? You have dozens and dozens of victims who are saying, we are willing to cooperate right now.”
  • Discussion of DOJ as vehicle for Trump’s retribution. Indictments against perceived enemies (e.g., James Comey, Letitia James) follow Trump’s public calls.
    • Blanche (11:55): “If you’re going to work in this department, you are going to execute on the president's priorities, and that's what we do.”

• Crisis in Accountability, Parallels to History

  • Hosts draw lines from Nixon, Iran-Contra, to now: cumulative failures of US institutions to hold elites accountable, with ramifications for public trust and justice.
    • Emma Vigeland (13:45): “The DOJ is going to basically function as a retribution vehicle for the pettiest man alive, who’s a pedophile protector at the very least…”
    • Sam Seder (16:25): “It just shows that there is just an immense amount of corruption built into the system.”

• Transnational Corruption & Epstein

  • “Global elite fixer” dimension: Epstein as connector between intelligence, finance, and power structures. Questions into QAnon as a deflective operation suggested.
  • Matt Lechian (15:22): “This stuff is—this blows the Nixon tapes out of the water.”

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II. Interview with Jamie Holmes: The Black Seminole Chief and America’s Forgotten War (24:57–52:52)

A. Origins: Discovering the Seminole Wars’ Hidden Story

• Holmes describes finding a reference to a “rainbow coalition” of Native and African Americans in Florida, fighting the US Army for 40 years—a story missing from American textbooks.
  • Jamie Holmes (25:35): “If you look in US History books today… usually you’ll see a description that says, the Seminole, Osceola was the leader of the war and he passed away… The story is so much richer and so much more interesting than it gets credit for.”

B. Setting the Historical Table (27:22)

• Early 1800s Florida: Newly acquired from Spain, sparsely populated (35,000 settlers, 45% enslaved), with approx. 5,000 Indigenous people from several tribes, not just Seminole.
• Andrew Jackson’s Indian Removal Act (1830): Accelerates forced expulsions, sparking resistance.
  • Holmes (28:03): “The story is the resistance of the Seminoles and their allies to this act of forced removal, more or less… And additionally, [it’s about] attempts by private citizens… to enslave the Black Seminoles.”

C. The Major Figures and Resistance

• Osceola: Often mythologized as Seminole war leader, but was actually Creek, shaped profoundly by violence against his people (31:32).

  • Holmes details the creation of a “heroic adversary” narrative to clean up the image of ethnic cleansing for history books.
  • Holmes (33:32): “He is useful… to Americans… It’s a much better story to say here’s a warrior and this is a war… than what was actually done, which was this sort of brutal forced immigration.”
  • Emma Vigeland draws modern parallels to Gaza: “It sounds very familiar—I mean literally you could be describing Gaza today…” (34:21)

• Abraham (Sawanak Toscanuki): Black Seminole chief, leader among a population of free and formerly enslaved Blacks living with Indigenous groups, negotiating a precarious, often hidden freedom (35:52).

  • The ‘Black Seminoles’ included free people, “servants” under Muscogee tradition (not chattel slaves), and self-emancipated individuals or POW descendants.
  • They “pretended” to be enslaved for protection (35:52).
  • Holmes (37:53): “The majority of them were free and pretending to have been purchased by the Seminoles for self protection.”
  • Documentation was unreliable; lack of proof left Black Seminoles vulnerable even after removal westward.

• Dealings With Colonizers

  • The Seminoles and Black Seminoles were acutely aware of differences between Spanish and American ideas of race and slavery.
    • Holmes (44:18): “Neither the Seminoles, nor the Spanish, nor the Black Seminoles thought of themselves as slaves. Only the Americans did.”
    • Spanish rule allowed more fluid class structures and freedom for people of color, prompting mass emigration when Americans took over.

• John Horse: Afro-Indigenous subchief who later led some to Mexico to avoid recapture and enslavement. Noted for his cunning and daring, including a famous jailbreak (46:26–48:19).

D. The Outcome: "Unilateral Surrender" and Legacy

• The US mostly abandoned the campaign—unable to “win” against small, mobile groups deep in the Everglades, with disease decimating US troops (49:02–51:06).
  • Holmes (49:02): “The US government more or less gives up and declares victory. It’s sort of a unilateral surrender.”
  • Paralleled to Vietnam and other examples of unwinnable, unjust wars.
• The surviving unconquered Seminole and their descendants remain in Florida to this day, with their story largely absent from mainstream US history.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Emma Vigeland (13:45):
  "It’s incredible that we’re living through this moment in history where the DOJ is going to basically function as a retribution vehicle for the pettiest man alive, who’s a pedophile protector at the very least and is declining before our very eyes. It’s crumbling empire stuff."

• Jamie Holmes (25:35):
  "There was a rainbow coalition in Florida in the 1800s between Native and African Americans that fought off the U.S. army for 40 years, and nobody knows the story because of our Eurocentric view of history."

• Sam Seder (51:06):
  "In many respects, it’s sort of like our first Vietnam. The parallels there are pretty striking."

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Key Timestamps

• 04:00 — News roundup: DOJ infighting, GOP shutdown standoff, Maryland gerrymander
• 08:39 — Ed Martin’s ouster, DOJ crony wars, Trump’s influence
• 09:32 — Fox News segment with Todd Blanche on Epstein prosecution
• 13:45 — Discussion: DOJ as “retribution vehicle”; historical accountability collapses
• 15:22 — The transnational elite, Epstein’s global role, QAnon as psyop theory
• 24:57 — Interview with Jamie Holmes begins
• 25:35 — Holmes: How he discovered the Black Seminole story
• 27:22 — Early 19th-century Florida: political and demographic context
• 31:32 — Osceola’s true origins, motivations, mythologizing
• 35:52 — The complexity of Black Seminole status and freedom
• 44:18 — Differences in dealing with Spanish vs. American colonial regimes
• 46:26 — John Horse’s exploits, Mexico-bound resistance
• 49:02 — The US “gives up,” parallels to later unwinnable conflicts
• 51:06 — The legacy: the unconquered people, hidden history

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Tone & Style

• Informal, incisive, often irreverent: Frequent asides and dark humor about the political moment, paired with earnest and detailed historical inquiry during the Holmes interview.
• Direct speaker attribution: Quotes and insights are attributed by name for clarity.
• Blend of analysis & digression: Especially in the first half, dense news summary interwoven with commentary and larger historical implications.

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Final Thoughts

This episode offers both a biting critique of current political rot—especially the corruption and cronyism under Trump’s DOJ—and a compelling recovery of buried American resistance history, linking past and present struggles for justice, autonomy, and historical truth. Jamie Holmes’ interview provides an accessible but thorough account of the Black Seminoles’ remarkable fight for survival and freedom, casting new light on a chapter too often omitted from US history.

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Transcript

[Sam Seder]

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[Emma Vigeland]

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[Sam Seder]

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[Brian]

Wow.

[Emma Vigeland]

Not safe for work.

[Sam Seder]

Exactly. Sorry.

[Jamie Holmes]

Game.

[Matt Lechian]

And that's.

[Sam Seder]

The code again is Valentine 26. That's Valentine 26. No spaces. People love Siber Seba Day as a gift. I've given it a lot of it actually. It's valentine26 no spaces. At sunsetlakesebide.com you will save 30% on all its all their edibles. The sale runs through February 9th at 11:59pm so you got about a week. As always, see the site for full terms and conditions. Head over there. We'll put the the link in the podcast and YouTube description with that coupon code. Now time for the show the Majority Report with Sam Cedar. It is Tuesday, February 3rd, 2026. My name is Sam Seder. This is the five time award winning Majority Report. We are broadcasting live steps from the industrially ravaged Gowanus Canal in the heartland of America, Downtown Brooklyn, usa. On the program today, Jamie Holmes, writer and author of the Free and the the Untold Story of the Black Seminole Chief, the indigenous rebel in America's Forgotten war. Also on the program, day three of a partial shutdown Republicans television keying up A vote today. Meanwhile, a judge temporarily blocks Trump's rescission of temporary protected status for 330,000 Haitians. Thousands of Epstein docs taken down after they supposedly inadvertently identified victims. Meanwhile, a lot of people have a lot of things to answer for. Fulton county to sued the Trump regime over seizure of the 2020 election records. This after reports Tulsi Gabbard, who was sort of oddly on that trip, called Trump from the election site so he could talk to the FBI agents.

[Matt Lechian]

Put me on speaker.

[Sam Seder]

I just happen to be in Atlanta. This as Donald Trump calls for Republicans to take over federal elections. Well, just in the states I lost.

[Emma Vigeland]

Seems bad.

[Brian]

Not all of them like 15 places.

[Sam Seder]

Federal thugs in Minnesota now outfitted with body cams that come with still code. Complete lack of accountability. French prosecutors raid ex offices as part of the investigation into Gro's new generations and algorithms. Maryland House passes a gerrymander for one more Democratic seat. Unclear if it gets Maryland's Senate passage.

[Brian]

Bill.

[Sam Seder]

And Hillary Clinton, remember them, they've agreed to testify before Congress about Epstein. Maybe because he's not really featured prominently in this latest document dump. France issues warrants against two French Israelis charged with obstructing humanitarian aid to Gaza. All this and more on today's Majority Report. Welcome, ladies and gentlemen.

[Emma Vigeland]

It is Newsday Tuesday. Kind of not really because we have a guest, but excited about the guests.

[Sam Seder]

Yeah, well, we'll cover some news as well, but there you go. I mean, it's Tuesday news day.

[Jamie Holmes]

It's.

[Sam Seder]

We just do it because it rhymes.

[Emma Vigeland]

Yes, exactly. As we talked about once the Trump 2.0 regime started, the amount of news that accumulates over the weekend makes it quite difficult for us to keep to our branding on the schedule front.

[Sam Seder]

The format has been certainly tested over the course of the past, I want to say 12 and a half months and we're still figuring it out. And I don't know that we will actually figure it out. I have a feeling that sort of the nature of the era we are in. But that's where we're at. Somebody's asking, are we going to cover the sharting shark gate?

[Emma Vigeland]

We did yesterday.

[Sam Seder]

Did we?

[Emma Vigeland]

We did.

[Matt Lechian]

We didn't think it was that impressive. Electronic disturbance.

[Emma Vigeland]

Right.

[Matt Lechian]

You know, maybe there's other angles.

[Emma Vigeland]

I mean, I do not think we need to get further into this, this story. Something stinks.

[Sam Seder]

We'll wait. We'll. We'll wait for the Trump pooping cam. So we'll wait for that. In the meantime, laundry camp. Ed Martin, you'll recall him, he was at one time the Washington D.C. u.S. Attorney. He is the one who got together with Pulte who was over at the FHA and they started doing all these hit jobs on people like Lisa Cook and Tish James by combing through their mortgage and trying to find some problem in their mortgages. Ed Martin has been demoted and is now down to like his portfolio is just like pardon lawyer at this point. Unclear what that means at the doj. But it does suggest that there has been some power balance, balance within the DOJ that has changed. I don't know how relevant it is really because it's really just like one set of cronies versus another set of cronies. But we haven't seen Pam Bondi out very much as of late. And it's unclear whether that's because maybe she screwed up something with the Epstein files or maybe she's out of favor with Donald Trump at the moment. But the guy that's been sent out a lot is Todd Blanche. He is the number two at the doj, Deputy Attorney General. And just to remind you, it is February 3rd. So this time plus three weeks last year, he was Donald Trump's top defense.

[Emma Vigeland]

Attorney and he was the guy that paid a little visit to Ghislaine Maxwell and she told him, oh, Trump's not implicated pretty much. And then coincidentally she moved to a low security prison. She got got a puppy. Things worked out quite well against all.

[Sam Seder]

Bureau of Prison Rules. So that's just gives you a sense of where Todd Blanch his job is. And he made the mistake of acknowledging that on ABC's this Week Sunday. This is number.

[Emma Vigeland]

Four.

[Sam Seder]

This is number. Oh, I'm sorry, this is number three.

[Emma Vigeland]

This is on FOX News.

[Sam Seder]

Yes. Yeah, it's on FOX News. To give you a sense of what his job is, this is what he said on Fox News last night regarding the Epstein files.

[Interviewer on Fox News]

Well, some of the people we saw on camera at the rallies. Is there any chance that any of these individuals who partied with Epstein and engaged in, you know, relations with minors will be prosecuted?

[Sam Seder]

Pause it for one second. I just want you to remember how she asked that question. Who partied with Epstein and engaged in relationships with minors? Are they going to get in any type of trouble? And you're going to be very surprised to which part of that sentence Todd Blanche did not hear.

[Interviewer on Fox News]

You know, relations with minors will be prosecuted. Any chance we.

[Todd Blanche]

I'll never say no. And we will always investigate any evidence of misconduct. But as you know, it is not a crime to party with Mr. Epstein. And so as horror horrible is that it's not a crime to email with Mr. Epstein. And some of these men may have done horrible things. And if we have evidence that allows us to prosecute them, you better believe we will. But it's also the kind of thing that the American people need to understand that it isn't a crime to party with Mr. Epstein. It isn't a crime to have a party.

[Interviewer on Fox News]

It didn't look like that's all that was going on on some of those photos. I mean, if the photos could speak, some of them look pretty bad.

[Todd Blanche]

That's right. And unfortunately, photos can't speak. And so we need witnesses and we need to.

[Interviewer on Fox News]

Are there videotapes that you all have, or.

[Emma Vigeland]

What do you mean you need witnesses? You have trouble? You have dozens and dozens of victims who are saying, we are willing to cooperate right now.

[Sam Seder]

And photos don't necessarily speak, but they sort of show, and that's what they do. But just in case you were wondering why he goes out and says this stuff, the two plus two in this is two is he was Donald Trump's defense attorney. And the other two in this is that in many ways he's still Donald Trump's defense attorney. This is him just two days ago.

[Todd Blanche]

America safe again. We're working hard every day. And those handful of investigations or cases you just show don't change that.

[Interviewer or commentator responding to Blanche]

Those indictments of James Comey and Letitia James came after the president explicitly said they're guilty as hell and justice must be served. Right now, they came after career attorneys refused to bring the indictments, and both cases have been dismissed.

[Todd Blanche]

I mean, when you. I don't know what it means to come after people. I mean, listen, if you're a prosecutor in the Department of Justice, you are expected to effectuate this administration's priorities. Like every single prosecutor in every administration, there are some, some prosecution prosecutors within the department who have chosen to leave. They don't want to do that. That is their right. That is fine. But if you're going to work in this department, you are going to execute on the president's priorities, and that's what we do. And yes, there are cases that have been dismissed by judges. They're under appeal. That's. That's what happens in our system. And that doesn't make the cases wrong or right. It just means that they've been dismissed and they're under appeal.

[Interviewer or commentator responding to Blanche]

Well, you just, you just actually made my point right there. He says the president's priorities. The president calls from them publicly to be prosecuted. Says they're guilty as hell and then they're prosecuted.

[Todd Blanche]

Now that's not the President's priorities. That's a truth that he sent out. The President's priorities are executing on making America safe again. And that's what we're doing. And so when we go to prosecutors and we say you are going to do violent crime, you are going to.

[Sam Seder]

Do, I don't think we need to hear any more at that point.

[Emma Vigeland]

How would you define a priority? So the truth, what he says on truth social is distinct in some way from his opinions in other areas or his agenda.

[Sam Seder]

That seems quite priorities are I think function of how they are communicated. And it's just a total coincidence that they went after multiple people with completely loser cases, that people resigned rather than take that were dismissed summarily. That took multiple grand juries to try and find an indictment. And even at that point they had to lie about what they got indicted and lie to the grand jury and to the judge. But they weren't listening to what the President said. It was just a coincidence because all he had put out was a truth post.

[Emma Vigeland]

It's incredible that we're living through this moment in history where it's just basically taken as a given that the Department of Justice is going to basically function as a retribution vehicle for the pettiest man alive who's a pedophile protector at the very least and is declining before our very eyes. It's it's crumbling empire stuff as is even this Epstein story where you see how like he was essentially he was a global elite and a connector and a fixer and his influence network was very much within the crumbling world order that even Carney talked about where it's like the Israeli intelligence, the military industrial complex, like US financial firms and that kind of corruption and these people being exposed in many ways is unmasking that like elite, that that's transnational elite that rules us all outside of nation states.

[Interviewer or commentator responding to Blanche]

Are you still talking about Jeffrey Epstein?

[Sam Seder]

I have a feeling there's going to be a lot more about the Epstein stuff going forward. On top of everything else, I want.

[Emma Vigeland]

Democrats to pull on the thread about Q and on potentially being a right wing psychological operation. By the way, the fact that he that that Epstein met with the 4chan founder and was working this closely with Steve Bann. It very much feels like that whole online phenomenon that radicalized so many online young men and conservatives was about deflecting from Trump's and Epstein's connections. And if Democrats take back power, they should really look into that also the.

[Matt Lechian]

Brexit stuff also people should look into that. Epstein talking about buying on the way down after things collapse because of the Brexit vote. This stuff is this. I mean, it's crazy. This blows the Nixon tapes out of the water.

[Emma Vigeland]

Absolutely.

[Matt Lechian]

Nixon tapes fan.

[Sam Seder]

Yeah. And I think to Emma's point, the way that this guy moved through the world and the people that he was, I mean, Larry Summers, for instance, has had as much influence on our economic policy over the past 15 years, maybe a little bit more 17 as any individual in the country, maybe.

[Jamie Holmes]

And.

[Sam Seder]

This guy was sort of trading different favors, including like seeking advice on how to date girls.

[Emma Vigeland]

So pathetic.

[Sam Seder]

But. But pathetic. But also like it just shows that there is just an immense amount of corruption built into the system. And it is. Matt Stoller had an interesting thread about how this is indicative of so many failed institutions across the board that allowed for someone like this to come in and short circuit all of the supposed trappings of the meritocracy and of the, I guess the rules based system.

[Emma Vigeland]

And I saw Ryan Grimm's reply just really quickly saying it's no coincidence that this system that Epstein exploited, it really began with Iran Contra and with their involvement in arms dealing and stuff like that. That is where this all, you know, I think you can trace it all.

[Sam Seder]

Back to failure of accountability. I mean, and we saw that sort of like crumble a little bit with Nixon. You got pardoned. Ultimately all, you know, bygones be bygones. But it was Iran Contra where we really started to see the failure of these institutions to hold people accountable. But we will talk more about this in the coming days. We have a couple of sponsors and after which we'll talk to Jamie Holmes, writer, author of the Free and the the Untold Story, the Black Seminole Chief, the Indigenous Rebel and America's Forgotten War. Raise your hand if you've been putting off a dental cleaning. Thank you, Brian.

[Brian]

I was once told that I may be from New England, but my teeth are from Old England.

[Sam Seder]

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[Matt Lechian]

Old fashioned.

[Sam Seder]

Oh, very old fashioned. Well, it's a history book. And so Jamie, welcome to the program. Let, let's just start with like, you know what, why don't we just discuss like why how you came upon this story. The Seminole wars are just not ones that frankly I feel like we cover. This is not something that my kid is going through high school is ever going to hear about, as far as I can tell. What was it that drew you to this?

[Jamie Holmes]

Thank you, first of all, for having me on. I don't remember what I was Googling, but I came upon a letter to the editor in the New York Times. I want to say it was written in 1991. It wasn't recent, and it said something to the effect of there was a rainbow coalition in Florida in the 1800s between Native and African Americans that fought off the U.S. army for 40 years, and nobody knows the story because of our Eurocentric view of history. That's what sort of set me off. And then I began to dig into the archives and what had been written about it. To your point, if you look in US History books today, what you'll really see is usually you'll see a description that says, the Seminole, Osceola was the leader of the war and he passed away. And there's a few sentences on it. Osceola was not a Seminole. He was not the leader. The story is so much richer and so much more interesting than it gets credit for. So I set out to tell the twin story of who Osceola was. I wanted to get behind the mythology of it and see who he really was, the historical person, not the mythologized character. And then the second person I started off focusing on was the Black Seminole chief, Abraham, whose Indian title is Sawanak Toscanuki or Shawnee Warrior. That was my jumping off point. And then later, I began to learn, as I got deeper into the research, the importance of the Mikazuki chief, Sam Jones, who I focus on in the back half of the book. And I didn't realize his importance when I started off.

[Sam Seder]

All right, well, let's set the table for us. We're in the 1810s, 20s. The United States has essentially purchased Florida at that point. But it is. I don't say it's like the Wild west, but I mean, it's sort of like the Wild west on some level. And Andrew Jackson, who was president at that point, is dreaming of his retirement home and so not really paying that much attention, just set the table for us and how this sort of story begins.

[Jamie Holmes]

Yeah. So in American history books, there are three seminal wars. The first is 1817-1818-1835-1842, which is the focus of this book. And then the third is 1855, 1858. The Seminole tribe of Florida refers to that entire period as the Long War, a period of colonial aggression. This in 1835, where the story really starts. From every territory east of the Mississippi river is a state except for Florida and Michigan. So Florida is lagging. It was Spanish. It's formally U.S. territory in 1821. Florida doesn't become a state until 1845. There's only 35,000 people in the Florida Territory at this time. 45% of those are enslaved people and about 5,000 indigenous people known to the colonists as the Seminoles, but in reality constituting a number of different tribes, the Seminoles among them. And yeah, in 1830, Andrew Jackson signs the Indian Removal act into law which nationalizes what was a more haphazard policy of removing families from their homes achieved through coercive treaties and military actions and settlers coming, crowding out the land. And so the story is the resistance of the Seminoles and their allies to this act of forced removal, more or less, they say, I'm really your friend. You have to leave. And if you don't leave, we're going to go to war and we're going to force you out. And additionally, this attempts by private citizens under the sanction of people in the US Government at high levels to enslave the black Seminoles and transfer them to private plantations, private forced labor camps.

[Sam Seder]

How many during the course of like that? I guess over the course of maybe 15 years in there, I guess it is, how many indigenous people, most of my understanding, go to Oklahoma at that point or are forced to go to Oklahoma?

[Jamie Holmes]

That's right. The population is estimated at 4 to 5,000 at the start of the war. In 1858, at the end of the Third Seminole War, the estimates that are about 600 people remain in the Everglades under the leadership of the Seminole Chief William Bowlegs, Billy Bowlegs, also known as Jolato Mico, and Chief Abiaka, also known as Sam Jones. So nearly everyone went west, but there was a core resistance that did win, that was unconquered, that never signed any surrender. And those descendants are still in Florida today. And that's their heritage, the unconquered people.

[Sam Seder]

So let's start with Osciala, who is, I guess, was miscategorized, like you say, as Seminole, but was in fact Creek. Tell us about him.

[Jamie Holmes]

He comes out of the Red Sticks in what is now Alabama and Georgia. And his boyhood, he would have seen this split in the Creek people. So the Seminoles break off from the Creek Confederacy or the Muscogee people and come down in several waves. 1750s, 1790s, 1814, around then, and there's a split in the Creek people. And there's a war, 1813, 1814, between the red Sticks where Osceola comes out of and the White Sticks who are allied with than General Jackson. And there's a battle of Horseshoe bend in which 800 red sticks are killed and widows and children, Osceola among them, make their way down into Florida. Osceola is probably around 10 years old at this time, if you date his birth to 1804, which some people do. And he is, he has a memory of this loss. He watched his people divided. He watched, he watched this known of in any case, this brutal defeat. And then the general who is responsible for it becomes the President of the United States, sends down a functionary into Florida to give him this spiel about friendship. Really, they're trying to save money, they want them off the land cheaply, without a war. And he is oriented towards payback righteously. So he gets it. He does pay with his life. He dies of some ailment, we're not sure exactly what, in American newspapers and even abroad, he becomes the face of the war. And he becomes one of the most famous Native Americans in American history, in American history textbooks. Why is this? That's a question all on its own is at the start of the war, he's not a Creek, he's loyal to the Mikazuki chief, Sam Jones. How did he become the face of the war? So part of the book deals with that and as far as I could tell, it's because of a few actions that he is responsible for. He killed Wiley Thompson. He was a prominent voice in the meetings, the negotiations that they had. He was quite vocal and he is useful to a degree to Americans who are trying to sell this as a war rather than a forced eviction of families, including women and children. It's a much better story to say here's a warrior and this is a war and he's brave or he's whatever he is, he's quote unquote savage. However you frame it, whether you're sympathetic or not, a warrior and a war is a better story than what was actually done, which was this sort of brutal forced immigration.

[Emma Vigeland]

It sounds very familiar. I mean it literally. You could be describing Gaza today, the way it's described, and the campaign of ethnic cleansing. But I don't have too much to add to that. Just wanted to point that out.

[Sam Seder]

And this is sort of another iteration of sort of. It's analogous to the. Also to the lost cause, like the way that history wants to remember these things. It makes it much more palatable if this was two belligerent groups versus, you know, one of ethnic cleansing. And we should just say that Wiley Thompson that you mentioned was the Indian agent sent by or he was Jackson's so called Indian agent sent down to, you know, try and convince him to just leave essentially by. So let's talk about Abraham or, you know, the. I, I'm not going to be able to say his, his other name, but I'm not gonna try. But. Well, what are the implications of like there being freedmen? Like how did, how did, were they freedmen or were they. Who were these people?

[Jamie Holmes]

Yeah. So again, to your point about what stories get told and which don't, there's a history of writers who discuss this story, who more or less ignore the black Seminole story as well. The population is comprised of several different quote unquote categories. There's black Seminole royalty who are formally free, who have papers to document their freedom. That includes Abraham and his family and a black Seminole. I can't forget if he's a chief or sub chief, Tony Barnett, I think he's a chief and his family. Of the estimated 500 black Seminoles who are there at the time, probably about 100 in these ratios. There are several different estimates of these ratios, but as best we know, 20% or 100 of those are servants. According to the old Muscogee way. This is not chattel enslavement. It's. As far as we know, the only requirement of this form of slavery is that you pay a portion of your crop of your corn as tribute, which sounds quite a bit like a tax to me and not enslavement. And then 480% of those are self emancipated, either people who freed themselves by escaping the plantations in Florida or further north, or children of POW prisoners of wars who were captured, some by the Creeks who allied with the British in the Revolutionary War. Their children by the old Muskogee rules could be full members of the tribe. But in essence you have. When Florida drafts the state constitution, there's a clause in there, it wasn't passed this way, but that's how it was drafted. Trying to ban all free black people from entering the state. So unlike when the Spanish had it and you had three classes and a large population of free people of color. What Florida is trying to institute is really a two tier system of white settlers and enslaved people. So there's really no space for a group of 500 free black people in the interior of Florida. So what they do is they pretend to be enslaved. They all pretend to have been purchased by the Seminoles. And if you look at their rights, the rights under chattel slavery generally, and these rules vary, movement is restricted, you need to pass. You cannot accumulate vast wealth. You can be sold and separated as property. And after 1831, after Nat Turner's rebellion, there are laws which ban the ability to teach an enslaved person to read. So if you compare them to what the black Seminoles, the rights the black Seminoles had, there was a law, according to Wiley Thompson, Jackson's Indian agent, that they could not be sold. Laws are broken, but there was a law against it. They traveled freely, they had vast livestock and they were knowledgeable. Some of them were trilingual, bilingual, they were worldly. So all of that and they were. And by the way, there's the governor of the territory of Florida writing a letter. In one letter he says they are slaves, but in name. So there's several references. I know a Seminole chief, he owns 80 enslaved people. He is none the better for owning them. He's poor, he can't even afford to feed his own family. So the majority of them were free and pretending to have been purchased by the Seminoles for self protection. Chief Abraham owned his son Renti. So that tells you Renti is not his is not an enslaved person. This is protective ownership.

[Sam Seder]

How was that arrangement made? Like, I mean, was it, I mean it's, you know, how sophisticated were they about creating? Did they create documents? What would have been the requirements for the Seminole to prove that they owned these freedmen? And how was that arrangement struck? Or was it just that the Seminole know, like we could see the writing on the wall and we just need as many sort of allies as we can get.

[Jamie Holmes]

Yeah. So there's an old Spanish policy beginning in the late 1600s which would recognize civil rights in exchange for military service. I think you had to say you were Catholic. But enslaved people who escaped down into Spanish Florida could say they were Catholic, fight in the militia and they would recognize their civil rights. So there's a history in Florida, and the British do this as well, of exchanging civil rights for soldiery. This is in the United States today. You can get a fast track to citizenship if you serve in the armed forces. So what it looks like is that part of the story is that the Seminoles just adopt this policy. We are welcome. A gun is a gun in Florida. Come down, we'll grow our military and you'll be offered some protection under Abraham and in these allied villages. But the situation, the question you're asking is how do you prove how can. And the answer is that they can't. So if you're a POW or a child of a POW taken in a raid, or if you've liberated yourself, there's no documentation on you. So this in a way is a double edged sword because nobody can prove that they own you. But also you're vulnerable. There's a book called Rogues paradise which talks about how kind of lawless Florida was at the time. There are a lot of profiteers, there are speculators, there are people who see black Seminole population as a vulnerable population and who are making claims on them. The former Indian agent Gad humphries illegally enslaves 29 black Seminoles on his private plantation. In Abraham's case, there's a newspaper article which says that his freedom papers trace to Alabama later on. He says there's credible evidence that he was born among the Seminoles. He asked directly in 1852. He says, I don't know where I was born, but I was born among the Seminoles. Reporter says that that language, which is the Muskogee language, is his mother tongue. So I believe that that document was forged because you would have to take that document and go to the cities or the army bases and you would want it recorded in the record books. So there is a record book in which Abraham must have presented that document to secure his formal emancipation. But the lack of documentation is a constant problem for them throughout this period. And when they travel west to the Indian Territory, what became Oklahoma.

[Sam Seder]

That documentation became a problem because they're going through territories or states at that point that are. When they see a black person, they're like, oh, you're a runaway slave.

[Jamie Holmes]

The claims on them continue even when they head west. Some of those claims are being made by Creeks who have adopted the ways of chattel slavery. Some of them are, quote, unquote, half breeds. You have settlers having children and some of those. Part of the schism in the Creek Nation is that you have a group who are starting to adopt the ways of chattel slavery. So some of those claims are being made on the black Seminoles by Creeks in the West. But yeah, that happens. That's something. There's a group of them that actually go down to Mexico in which slavery has been outlawed to escape those persistent claims.

[Sam Seder]

Okay, good.

[Emma Vigeland]

Well, I mean, I'm wondering, in the dealings with the Americans, was there were you able to trace some sort of understanding of like how dealing with Spanish colonizers versus the Americans versus what, you know, Andrew Jackson was trying to do here? What, how did the Seminoles differentiate in their dealings with these two colonizing groups? And is there anything that informs the other?

[Jamie Holmes]

Yeah, it's a good question. There's a historian of early Florida named Jane Landers at Vanderbilt. She did an interview. She said something like, it's difficult for the American audience to understand that neither the Seminoles, nor the Spanish nor the Black Seminoles thought of themselves as slaves. Only the Americans did.

[Emma Vigeland]

Right.

[Jamie Holmes]

I found that they were very discerning. So, first of all, when America takes over in 1821, a lot of free people of color leave and they go to the Bahamas. They know what it means. They know that the relative freedom under Spanish rule is not going to persist and they exit. At the beginning of the war, Black Seminole envoys went to the settlers that they liked, that they had good relationships with and warned them. So they were discerning in that sense. There's another description of attacks on shipwrecks on the coast in which there's a French ship that wrecks on the coast and they're spared because they're not American. So the Seminoles know very well that the ideas about skin color that the Americans are bringing are quite different. There's a Claudio Sant who's an expert on the Creek Nation and generally on indigenous people. He has a scholarly article which is titled something like, the British are of a mind to make slaves of them all. So this is what the Americans inherited. It really was. It was a much more brutal and polarized idea of what we still call race that they were bringing.

[Sam Seder]

All right, so let's move forward in the story to John Horse and to where. Tell us about him.

[Jamie Holmes]

John Horst is a Seminole sub chief. He is Afro indigenous. His mother was a black Seminole. His father was a Seminole. We think one of the tribesmen. There's a lore about John Horst because he's one of the people that travel to Mexico, I want to say, in 1850, to escape these claims that I was talking about. There's a story of him when he's young. He's also known as Gopher John. His Indian name is Hokepis Hadjo. There's a story of him selling the same two gopher turtles to a military officer again and again. The officer puts them in the cage and they escape and he sells them back the next day. There's a lot of lore around him. The scholar Kenneth Porter, who has written about this, and it's sort of the source of the strand of historical research that focuses on the Black Seminoles on the left, writes extensively about John Horst. I don't write much about him. I don't follow him much. It's mostly Abraham, but he's one of the figures. And he also commands 15 warriors, so he's one of the fighters as well. And he was involved in the jailbreak in November 1837, in which 20 prisoners of the US army escape out of the Castelo de San Marcos, this massive Spanish fort in St. Augustine, by climbing out of this small loophole in the wall and making a rope out of their. Out of their bed covers. And two women were involved in that escape as well, during the night. It's very dramatic escape in late November, 1837.

[Sam Seder]

And I guess, lastly, like, where do we end up? What is the. In the. Towards the end of this, as the sort of, like, the. We remain with 600 Seminole in the. How was it? Just a question of, we're moving into a different part of Florida and we're out of, like, eyesight. How do we get to the point of. I guess the Seminole just no longer represent a threat to the newly created state.

[Jamie Holmes]

Yeah. The U.S. government more or less gives up and declares victory. It's sort of a unilateral surrender. What happens in Florida is. So in the Second Seminole War, there's about 1500 regular deaths, soldiers who die. Only about 330 of those are combat deaths. So the majority of deaths are happening because of Florida, because they're getting sick. Malaria disease, unknown is often recorded. What happens in 58 and the way in which Sam Jones, chief of Biaka, was able to wear down the army was because they set up towns in the Everglades on these hammocks, these kind of tree islands. And they would carve out places for villages and places to grow things and places for cattle and to live within these that you couldn't see from the outside. And they had a network of canoes, so whenever one spot was discovered, they would go to another spot and the army couldn't catch them. And so it became a test of wills. It became a war of attrition, where you're sort of wandering around, dying of disease, not finding anyone. And this was land that the settlers couldn't farm on anyway, Everglades, even after it was drained, a lot of that land is not farmable. So the argument. It became a question of, to what degree is this worth the cost in lives and in treasure? And the government just decided it wasn't. And in 42, when the Second Seminole War ends, Tyler makes a speech and he says something like, we've won, and it's very noble of us to leave those remaining there because it's a noble restraint. But really they were worn down and the country was tired of the war and so they just gave up.

[Sam Seder]

I mean, in many respects, it's sort of like our first Vietnam. The parallels there are pretty striking. And what ultimately became, as we go through forward of not just of Jones, but I mean, of those Seminole who are basically hiding in the Everglades or unreachable because the land they have at that point is not worth to the colonial project what the cost associated would be essentially, at least at that time.

[Jamie Holmes]

Yeah, the Seminole tribe of Florida and the Micazukis of Florida today, those are the descendants of those survivors. And there's a Seminole Nation in Oklahoma too. So they, you know, in the 1950s, I think a hundred years later or something, there was some ceremonial signing in which the state of Florida and the tribes and the chiefs sort of agree to put the past behind them. But, you know, they come, they exit the Everglades, part of the Everglades is drained and their oral histories are recorded in the 1950s. And yeah, it becomes the Seminole Tribe of Florida and the Mikazuki's of Florida.

[Sam Seder]

It's a fascinating story. Jamie Holmes, writer, author, the Free and the Dead the Untold Story of the Black Seminole Chief, the Indigenous Rebel and America's Forgotten War. Thanks so much for your time today. Really appreciate it.

[Jamie Holmes]

Thanks for having me. That was fun. Thanks, Sam. Thanks, Alex.

[Emma Vigeland]

Thank you.

[Sam Seder]

All right, folks, we're gonna take a quick break, head into the fun half. Fun half. I don't know. I was gonna call it the despondent hour.

[Emma Vigeland]

Yes.

[Interviewer or commentator responding to Blanche]

It just seems like a desecration, but you go ahead.

[Emma Vigeland]

What was that about again?

[Matt Lechian]

That was when people were asking about the Epstein files after a bunch of people died in a flood in Texas.

[Emma Vigeland]

Oh, my God. Right? You know, Trump, who respects the sanctity of really care.

[Matt Lechian]

I definitely thought about all those people that died because of the negligence of Texas public authorities not doing sirens for floods. I thought about them a lot.

[Emma Vigeland]

Like after the LA wildfires when he went there and just kept talking about sweeping up the. The leaves. He's just. I mean, natural disasters can't conjure much from him.

[Sam Seder]

We'll get into this, but I should just tell you that I have on my calendar.

[Emma Vigeland]

Oh, yes.

[Sam Seder]

Let me just double check here.

[Jamie Holmes]

But.

[Sam Seder]

Where did I have it? Oh, yesterday I had Trump getting his. His juice. So I don't know, he may. Well, he was around this weekend though, right?

[Matt Lechian]

Or.

[Sam Seder]

But is he out in public?

[Matt Lechian]

Today did some phone interviews. I saw. I did Bongino.

[Sam Seder]

But he did on the phone.

[Emma Vigeland]

He did, but sitting down on video. I think that's the. That's the notable change is he keeps doing these press conferences from the Oval Office every time so he doesn't have to get up.

[Sam Seder]

Well, also. So they can clean up the. They can clean up after.

[Emma Vigeland]

Yeah. I thought we weren't buying that.

[Sam Seder]

I'm not buying it.

[Emma Vigeland]

It's just fun.

[Sam Seder]

Well, let's put it this way. I'm not saying. I'm not saying. I'm not saying that that that clip. Yeah. Is indicative of him pooping his pants. But I'm also not saying that it doesn't happen all the time.

[Emma Vigeland]

Yeah, yeah. I mean, just from the way that he waddles, you can tell these. He's got a diaper on, and there's probably somebody. Extra bag.

[Sam Seder]

Somebody made the point that, like, when we played that yesterday, we didn't take it. We didn't do the video all the way through because everybody gets ushered out of there immediately after that. Because he does say at the end. I watched the tape again, just, you know, out of curiosity. He does goes. Oh, that's great. That's great. Okay, everybody. Okay, thank you. We're all good. Okay, everybody out. Every. He just kept, like.

[Brian]

And Susie Wiles walks in with a big bag.

[Emma Vigeland]

Right, right. Susie, open. Open that window for me.

[Sam Seder]

We've all been in compromised situations. And if you have the ability. If you have the ability to say, like, okay, it's good seeing you, everybody, goodbye. I got a. I got a lot of stuff to do. Which is what he says. It did feel like. It did feel like he was trying to get everybody out of the room. But also, like, yeah. You know, one way if you really need people out of the room is you stand up and you usher people out. But if you can't stand up, you start waving like, okay, everybody go. Everybody go.

[Emma Vigeland]

I honestly, I shouldn't even step to you on this. Like, you're. You have a sixth sense with fecal matters.

[Sam Seder]

That's actually true. I can pick up on, like.

[Brian]

That's one of the regular senses.

[Emma Vigeland]

Yeah. Through the tv, though. This is what I'm saying. This is your super. This is your superpower. Some people can shape shift and fly. You can tell when somebody shit their pants.

[Sam Seder]

I mean, I have one or two other talents like that also. I can tell when people pee themselves. But that's much easier. That's a lot easier, folks. It's your support that makes the show possible. If you want to more of this great content, join themjorityreport.com it's your donations that help the show survive and thrive. And if you listen to the show a couple of times a week or you watch the show a couple of times a week, become a member. You not only get the free show free of commercials, but you also get to Imus in the fun half. Things like punch drunk pulpit. Who just wrote Sam Smelter.

[Emma Vigeland]

Yeah. Fecal man. Sam Fecalman. That's anti Semitic.

[Sam Seder]

Just coffee co op. Drink coffee, hot chocolate.

[Emma Vigeland]

I don't want to get mad.

[Sam Seder]

Use the coupon code majority to get 10% off. Just coffee co op. Matt, what's happening to me? Matt Lechian.

[Matt Lechian]

Yeah, put the German on it. Left Reckoning is coming up right after Majority Report.

[Sam Seder]

Today.

[Matt Lechian]

We have Ben Fong and Paul Prescott on talking about a new book of speeches from Bayard Rustin that includes commentary on speeches. Really great book. Bayard Rustin, a very interesting thinker. And also Texas politics giveth and taketh away. We talk about Taylor Ramit's success. David has an inside view of that. And also calling Allred's frankly embarrassing. A little foray into being offended. That apparently has entire Senate primary up in a tizzy down in Texas. Another embarrassing chapter in Democratic Party ID poll politics, in my opinion. Pathologies on display over there. So check that out right after the show today.

[Sam Seder]

I think we're probably going to be talking about that video he cut too. Impressive stuff.

[Matt Lechian]

Steam coming off of his head. And I'm pretty steamed, too.

[Sam Seder]

If you're gonna come for me, you better come for me.

[Emma Vigeland]

Oh, yeah, it was that energy, but it's actually somehow worse.

[Sam Seder]

It was worse because it was so, like, just manufactured. It was so, like, exhausting. Right before he hit record, he was like, what am I supposed to be mad about? Yeah, exactly. 100 corporations ate my baby on the I.M. says Sam Peter. So there you go, folks. See you in the fun half.

[Jamie Holmes]

You are in for it.

[Sam Seder]

All right, folks. 6, 4, 62573, 920. See you in the fun. Are you ready? Who sent us this?

[Caller or caller voice]

Alpha males are back, back, back, back, back. Boy is back. And the alpha males are back, back.

[Sam Seder]

Just as delicious as you could imagine.

[Caller or caller voice]

The alpha males are back, back, back, back, back, back. And the alpha males are back, back, back, back.

[Brian]

Just want to degrade the white man.

[Caller or caller voice]

Alpha males are back, back.

[Sam Seder]

I take all of it.

[Caller or caller voice]

Alpha males are back, back, back, back.

[Sam Seder]

Snowflake says what?

[Caller or caller voice]

The alpha males are.

[Sam Seder]

You are a madman.

[Caller or caller voice]

And the alpha males are back, back. Oh, no.

[Sam Seder]

Sam Cedar.

[Jamie Holmes]

What a. Whoa. What a nightmare.

[Sam Seder]

Yeah, or a couple of them. Just put them in rotation.

[Jamie Holmes]

DJ, dinner.

[Matt Lechian]

Well, the problem with those is they're, like, 45 seconds long, so I don't know if they're enough of a break.

[Emma Vigeland]

That's nonsense.

[Brian]

You see white people doing drugs. They look worse than normal white people. And all white people look disgusting.

[Caller or caller voice]

And the alpha males psych them.

[Emma Vigeland]

Them.

[Matt Lechian]

Oh.

[Sam Seder]

Snowflake says, what?

[Jamie Holmes]

What?

[Brian]

What?

[Todd Blanche]

What?

[Interviewer or commentator responding to Blanche]

What? What?

[Interviewer on Fox News]

What?

[Jamie Holmes]

What? What?

[Interviewer or commentator responding to Blanche]

What?

[Jamie Holmes]

What?

[Sam Seder]

What?

[Jamie Holmes]

What, What?

[Sam Seder]

What?

[Brian]

A hell of a lot of bank. Hell of a lot of bank. A hell of a lot of bank. Okay, I'm making stupid money. Hell of a lot of bank. A hell of a lot of bank. All lives matter.

[Sam Seder]

Have you tried doing an impression on a college campus?

[Brian]

I. I think that there's no reason why reasonable people across the divide can't all agree with this. Psych.

[Caller or caller voice]

And the alpha males are back, back, back, back, back, back. And the Africans are black, black, black, black, black, African. And the alpha males are black, black, black, black, black, black. And the Africa.

[Brian]

When you see Donald Trump out there, doesn't a little part of you think that America deserves to be taken over by jihadists? Keeping it 100. Can't knock the hustle. Come on.

[Emma Vigeland]

Them.

[Brian]

Them things I do for the bigger game plan. By the way, it's my birthday. My birthday. Happy birthday to me, Jew boy.

[Sam Seder]

I have a thought experiment for you.

[Caller or caller voice]

And the alpha males are back, back. Africans. Black, Black. Alpha males are black, Black Africans are back, back.

[Brian]

Come on, come on, come on. Someone needs to pay the price for blasphemy around here.

[Sam Seder]

I am a total.