Salah Ad Din Maqsood (7:18)

Whoa.

Emma Vigeland (7:20)

Our apartment was not happy last week and I wasn't really even able to keep up too much with the news, but I was feeling better going into the weekend and hopefully I'm no longer a walking germ.

Salah Ad Din Maqsood (7:34)

We'll.

Emma Vigeland (7:35)

By the way, it's President's Day, so people may have off. I hope you're enjoying that. We observe the holidays where we actually want to honor those people. So we are all for MLK Day.

Greg Grandin (7:46)

He is a sidekick to the President.

Matt (Producer) (7:49)

Just a little bit. President Rap for us on President's Day.

Emma Vigeland (7:51)

What was that?

Matt (Producer) (7:52)

That was MC Rove.

Emma Vigeland (7:54)

Oh, got it.

Matt (Producer) (7:55)

The guy from Whose Line Is It Anyway?

Emma Vigeland (7:57)

Okay, great, great. I mean, at least you didn't pull out the Lin Manuel Miranda, which, you know, probably takes a month off my life with the amount of cringing. Don't do it.

Greg Grandin (8:07)

That's. This is your fault.

Emma Vigeland (8:08)

You basically just asked for it.

Greg Grandin (8:12)

I can see Matt's fingers start moving right when you said Lynn Re examined the terrain.

Matt (Producer) (8:18)

Watch a campaign with the man, Tim Kane.

Greg Grandin (8:20)

Ah, Tim Kane in the membrane. Tim Kaine and the brain.

Emma Vigeland (8:29)

Filing a report with hr. So we will be talking to. We'll be talking to Greg Grandin about Marco Rubio's speech and what that meant and what it signals for foreign policy under Donald Trump. But what was awesome to see. And I, when I saw these clips, I mean, the amount of girl bossing that I was engaging in internally, the feminism rose in me with such exponential power. Seeing one Alexandria Ocasio Cortez go to the Munich Security Conference and really step onto the international stage in a way that signals that, like, this possibility of a presidential run is really serious. You don't go and speak at a conference like this and set yourself up as a leader, an alternative leader in the United States. If you don't have that kind of ambition. And for me, with Bernie seeing her as his successor, I am thrilled about it and I love so much of what she had to say there. I mean, this is really immensely important as we see the Trump administration withdraw from international cooperation, withdraw from any kind of pretense about international law and cementing the idea that might makes right. And, and we are going to win the next frontier of American dominance through blood, through brute force, through lack of cooperation. I mean, what we're seeing in Cuba through like abject war crimes on a regular basis, let alone the bombings that we are engaging in in the Caribbean, still over 130 people we've killed extrajudicially as a way to initially goad Venezuela into some sort of response. And now it's basically about trying to use some sort of sadism to demonstrate American power, let alone the genocide that we're committing in Gaza, and on and on and on. So she, at the Munich Security Conference, was showing what American leadership could look like in the future. And she focused on the working class, income inequality and tied it to foreign policy and overall the rise of authoritarianism across the globe. Here is this first clip where she talks about Mark Carney's speech. We have spoken about the historic nature of that speech, but also the limits of his criticism, given Carney being a banker, given him not necessarily sharing Alexandria Ocasio Cortez's worldview. She's further left than Carney, and she makes that clear here as to why it didn't go far enough.

Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez (AOC) (11:23)

I think that Prime Minister Carney's remarks at the World Economic Forum were words that run around the world in raising this question. But I think that also in his remarks as well as part of this larger conversation, there was this undertone, this undercurrent, this suggestion that it was a rules based order sometimes. And I think that that is the issue that lies before us, is that in a so called rules based order, the rules for whom? Because for all too long, the rules only applied to the United States, Europe, its allies, and we would carve out exceptions for the global South. And I think that when you have a rules based order where you carve out exceptions to our values, exceptions to our rules, eventually the exceptions become the rules. And I think that to your original point, over the last five years, we've seen such a breaking and such a fraying of these alleged Western values that people wonder if it ever existed in the first place. So I don't know if it's necessarily that we were in a post if we are in a post rules based order, I think it's possible that we were in a pre rules based order and we have an opportunity to explore what a world would look like if we upheld democracy, human rights, trade that actually centers working class people instead of accruing overwhelmingly the benefits of trade to the wealthiest. But if we reoriented a new era that could actually help people and show how foreign policy and healthy foreign policy can show up and help them in their lives.

Emma Vigeland (13:26)

I loved that answer. I loved it. The I think that many more Democrats should be speaking about that in those terms that the were perhaps were in pre a pre rules based international order because that's the reality of the post World War II rules based international order was that it was dictated overwhelmingly by the West. The terms were set by the west.

Matt (Producer) (13:53)

Because the west was stronger and nobody else could say anything about it.

Emma Vigeland (13:56)

Right.

Matt (Producer) (13:56)

And that situation anymore.

Emma Vigeland (13:57)

And the international law that was applied was really towards countries that had less power usually fit when we would go after say war criminals. The objectives of the United States in a manner that was so hypocritical that at this point it's become entirely untenable and unbearable. And she is addressing that very reality now. This clip is another great one. This is where she talks even more specifically about wealth inequality, income inequality driving people towards right wing authoritarianism, towards far right politics and towards specifically the instability that the United States is experiencing politically right now and across other Western governments and spending money on that in order to actually protect our democracies. I'll pause just really quickly. This is her responding to this woman set up a question with a person I think who was disaffected by the like center left party in Germany. And that's who AOC is responding to as well as externally.

Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez (AOC) (15:08)

Yes, yes, that's absolutely right. You know, I think one of the connections and relationships that is under discussed particularly in the security space is the fact that.

Emma Vigeland (15:22)

I was setting up a different clip. So just disregard everything I just said.

Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez (AOC) (15:25)

But here you go across economy around the world, including in the United States, that extreme levels of income inequality lead to social instability and drives in a sense in authoritarianism, right wing populism and and very dangerous domestic internal politics. And that is a direct outcome of not just income inequality, but the failure of democracies over decades to deliver the failure to deliver higher wages, the failure to rein in corporations. You know, the point was just made about antitrust. The United States antitrust was is such a foundational bedrock value, not just because the ascent of monopolies create the abuse of power and corporations and market power. But there is a level of market concentration and corporate consolidation where a massive company can get so big that its consolidated power can rival that of nation states and democracies. We have elected leaders. And in massive corporations that then begin to consume the public sector, gobble up the spending, they start to call the shots. And we're starting to see this with some of the billionaire class throwing their weight around in domestic politics and in global politics as well. So it is of utmost urgent priority that we get our economic houses in order and deliver material gains for the working class, or else we will fall to a more isolated world governed by authoritarians that also do not deliver to working people.

Emma Vigeland (17:15)

This is about income inequality and the billionaire class and the rise of their power as a national security threat. It is a national security threat.

Matt (Producer) (17:28)

The 1.

Emma Vigeland (17:28)

It is the essential one. Because as she mentions there and says quite well, not only does it lead to the political situation that we're in, of instability, of authoritarianism, like directly leading to Donald Trump is a security threat. It's a safety threat. It's a threat to our civil liberties, it's a threat to democracy. It's all of that. But income inequality, billionaires having that power is perhaps an even greater threat than the immediate one that we face in the White House. Because as we've seen with the revelation of some of these Epstein documents, these are people that have built a network of control over our globe that exists outside of the democratic will. And the fact and the how does that network sprout up? It has to come with a massive influx of money that supersedes nation states, as she mentions there, and calls the shots for us, whether it's Ehud Barak and Jeffrey Epstein doing backroom deals about things that should be about diplomacy, when it's really about, hey, Peter Thiel, why don't you set up your surveillance technology company here in Israel and you can test it on Palestinians in the Palestine laboratory in Gaza, and then you can use it back here at home. It is when foreign policy is so disconnected from the democratic will of the people that you can commit things like genocide. And we're in a supposed representative government, and people don't have zero ability to stop that tide. Like, what does that do to the psyche of a national population when there are massive atrocities being committed? And it's not like it's US Troops on the ground. It's not like we're. Our young men and women are in. In danger directly, but it is an action being Taken with our tax dollars and it's literally told to us. Your input is not, not needed. It shouldn't be listened to, it should be disregarded. In fact, it should be suppressed with major, major first amendment issues embedded in it. Go ahead, Matt.

Matt (Producer) (19:56)

Oh, I mean, it's just because we're also pre democracy. And I'll just say like the national security framing, this is about sort of nationalism in general. And these class of people, the billionaires have drove us into second place compared to China. You know what China's not doing? It's not getting more and more billionaires. What it is doing is connecting all cities with major rail. It's passing forward in terms of global auto sales with byd. Oh, and by the way, at the same time it's doing all that industrial stu. It's also, its emissions have peaked for 21 straight months. Oh yeah, so what, so what's happening? We're being driven into the ground by a bunch of billionaire pedophile protectors or worse, and they're all faffing about. Well, you know, we talk about democracy, it's like we, we need to get those people under control. The billionaires need to be under control because they are ruining it. They're ruining the quote unquote west, which is I think an embarrassment at this point.

Emma Vigeland (20:53)

I mean it really is amazing when you, when you look at like the term national security, it's about fortifying the United States and making. It's supposed to be about that, it's about investors, right.

Matt (Producer) (21:07)

Missile companies.

Emma Vigeland (21:08)

Now it's supposed to be about making us safe, ostensibly. I mean, that is what they tell us. What would be making us safe is to invest in infrastructure, to invest in.

Matt (Producer) (21:18)

High speed rail, have housing that people could afford.

Emma Vigeland (21:22)

It actually our national security apparatus, because it is controlled by the billionaires and because incoming wealth inequality is so out of control, they endanger us on a daily basis with their bloodthirsty brutality because it's more paramount for them to test out weapons technology on innocent people in Gaza or to bomb people in the Caribbean Sea as some sort of show of force for what you're talking about Western civilization, but really it's about militarizing everywhere and bringing that as close to home as possible. Whether it's ice and face facial recognition technology on our very streets or whether it's off the coast and with Cuba and all of that. They endanger us with their brutality with this bully utilizing American power, but really it's to enrich their shareholders.

Matt (Producer) (22:14)

Yeah, the idea this is any of this Is for the nation is a joke. It's for the nation, the investors within a certain part of the globe, the west or whatever, Western investors, and what they can get out of this. So now we're going to make Europe spend some more in. Because obviously they can't trust America. But where's this money going? It's not to like, say, help produce energy, it's to make bombs.

Emma Vigeland (22:35)

And so that is where we're at. Where it's about prioritizing our national security means taxing billionaires out of existence and diminishing their power to the point where they can no longer have this shadow network that calls the shots. And I thought that AOC's comments there really fit in to, I guess, what the agenda should be. And at the very least presented a face and a vision of American power that allows perhaps some people in that room in Europe to look a few years down the line and say, okay, maybe we don't entirely cut ties with America because we're at a point here where American leadership has been, so, to use it colloquially, schizophrenic and downright bloodthirsty and irresponsible that that would be the rational choice unless someone like AOC shows that there's a different future on the horizon for American leadership. In a moment, we'll be talking to Greg Grandin about Rubio's speech at Munich. But first, a word from some of our sponsors here. 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Blueland is trusted in over 1 million homes, including mine and I guess also this office that counts as two. Blueland has a special offer for listeners right now. Get 15% off your first order by going to blueland.com majority. You won't want to miss this. Blueland.com majority for 15% off. That's blueland.com majority to get 15% off. Link down below in the video and episode descriptions. Quick break and we'll be joined by Greg Grandin. We are back and we are thrilled to be joined once again by Greg Grandin, history professor at Yale University, Pulitzer Prize winning author, including his latest America, A New history of the New World. Greg, thank you so much for coming on the show.

Greg Grandin (29:10)

Thanks for having me on, Emma.

Emma Vigeland (29:11)

Of course. Before we get to Rubio, I just gotta say your book was kind of trending because of the Bad Bunny super bowl performance. I saw you wrote a piece in the Nation about it. Just tell us a little bit about that.

Greg Grandin (29:25)

Yeah, I, you know, I'm not a big sports fan, so I wasn't. And, and honestly, you know, I wasn't really. Now I love big Bad Bunny, but I guess I wasn't. But I started getting texts from people asking me saying that, you know, Bad Bunny was basically performing America, America, especially the last bit where he, where he was basically reclaiming the name America for all of the Americas and not in the united, not just the United States. And so I just wrote a piece about how it was, you know, my favorite part of the piece was how I compared Bad Bunny to Lin Manuel Miranda. And you know, where he, where Hamilton was this ode to Obama, multicultural neoliberalism Bad Bunny.

Emma Vigeland (30:09)

I literally, I took a screenshot of your tweet because it was such a great point. I, I have it right here on my phone. I'm just going to read it. Bad Bunny with his focus on labor and criticism of Puerto Rico's economic restructuring is our social democratic movement's answer to Lin Manuel Miranda's neoliberal Hamilton and his support for promesa. And that was just so apt, I couldn't believe it. I mean, the progress then, right? Even in the culture.

Greg Grandin (30:39)

Yeah, I mean, you know, cultural defiance and representational politics only go so far. But you get A sense that Bad Bunny thinks that there's an economics behind it, whereas somebody like Miranda thinks that if you just celebrate, you know, then you could say, I mean, Miranda was a big supporter a lot of that neoliberal restructuring that came, you know, came that, that came after the hurricane and whatnot. Where. And, and of course that Bunny is, is, I mean, he's, he's, he wants independence. He doesn't want like, he doesn't want, you know, Puerto Rican receivership or Venezuela to receivership. Yeah, yeah.

Emma Vigeland (31:19)

Well, people can read your piece in the Nation for a little bit more on that if they would like. But I wanted to talk to you a little bit about Marco Rubio's speech in Munich. We just played some clips of Alexandria Ocasio Cortez's speech in Munich and there's quite the contrast there. Maybe we can start there and then we'll play some clips of what Rubio had to say.

Greg Grandin (31:50)

Start that. Meaning.

Emma Vigeland (31:51)

Meaning just like if you. Over Overall, overall your. Yeah. Umbrella thoughts.

Greg Grandin (31:58)

Yeah, it was a, it was a nice contrast because not, not least because there's, there is a possible future in which These are the two nominees for the, for the presidential election in 2028 and Ruby over the Republicans and AOC for the Democrats. And I think that AOC acquitted herself. You know, she went out on a limb talking about class based internationalism. I mean, that's a pretty radical premise for somebody who was being seriously considered as a possible nominee for the Democratic Party. I don't know how she'll have to evolve and tweak and figure out how to discuss that in more accessible ways. But, but I thought she did. She was, it was quite a, quite an interesting remarks that she gave. Now, on the other hand, Marco Rubio was trying to do damage control both for a number of things. I mean, there was Vance's speech at the same security conference last year where he was pedantic and didactic and lecturing Europe on, you know, also, you know, not paying attention to their civilizational decline. And then of course, a couple of months ago there was all of the, you know, the disaster of Greenland and Trump's Trump's attempt to claim Greenland or insist that he was going to take Greenland. So there was a lot of damage control, but it was damage control that really didn't really give an inch in terms of the larger Trump world vision. And Marco Rubio. It was kind of sad actually. Marco Rubio was born in.

Salah Ad Din Maqsood (33:41)

He'S in.

Greg Grandin (33:41)

Southern, from southern Florida. He grew up in basically a drug den. His Brother in law was a major cocaine trafficker. And, and here he is trying to sound as if he was, I don't know, Henry Adams or, or Frederick Jackson Turner or some WASP poet of.

Salah Ad Din Maqsood (34:01)

The.

Greg Grandin (34:01)

American frontier of Western civilization. I mean, he was clearly trying to wed some, trying some. He was trying to find some synthesis between America first nationalism and what he used to be associated with. And that was neoconservative globalization. And I think, you know, people celebrated it and the tone and I know the audience appreciated that they weren't being lectured to by Vance. But if you actually read the speech, it's quite, it's quite a remarkable document. I mean, I mean just, just his complete dismissal of everything that happened after 1945 as a mistake, as a foolish mistake. 1945, of course, is when they founded the United nations. And it was really effectively as good a date as any for the beginning of decolonization. And he goes on to say that it's a. The speech is a celebration of basically white supremacist, white European supremacy and empire. He clearly says that from Columbus up until 1945, Europe was expanding and it was pouring forth its peoples through the world and bringing innovation and culture and civilization. And since 1945 we've been stagnant. I mean it's a glossing over the Cold War and getting to the critique of the post Cold War globalization. So there's a number of things. One is the striking contradiction and hypocrisy between celebrating white people pouring out of Europe across the world and condemning today's mass migration, which is not unrelated to white people pouring out across the world. Then there's this sense of. The sense that we've got to go back to. I don't know, you know, it was just this temp, not so much to where Vance was lecturing Europe on its civilization not doing enough to reverse its civilization decline. What Rubio was doing was kind of stretching the canvas of America first to cover Europe. Right. So it's not so much America first, it's White People First. I mean that could have been the name of the speech.

Emma Vigeland (36:34)

Yeah, let's do part B here of this speech. Cuz I think it fits into what you're speaking about here. You know, this section of his speech was really after just going on a long winded for a long time. Do we have Greg still? Okay, you're a little frozen, but we can still hear you. We are back. Fix the camera issue. So thanks for your patience everybody. But a lot of what you're talking about, Greg, I think is exemplified by this section of his speech. He spent the minute prior to this section that we're going to play here speaking about the artistic and cultural contributions of Europe. And he spoke all about the role that Europeans have played in civilization and building this world and, and how it's not about the past, it's about. About the future. I mean, I think a lot of people in Europe are probably thinking, well, the future is China. But he's trying to say that the American European partnership is the way of the future. This, let's play a little bit of this. This section.

Marco Rubio (37:54)

Mass migration is not, Was not, isn't some fringe concern of little consequence. It was and continues to be a crisis which is transforming and destabilizing societies all across the West. Together we can re industrialize our economies and rebuild our capacity to defend our people. But the work of this new alliance should not be focused just on military cooperation and reclaiming the industries of the past. It should also be focused on together advancing our mutual interests and new frontiers, unshackling our ingenuity, our creativity and the dynamic spirit to build a new Western century. Commercial space travel and cutting edge artificial intelligence. Industrial automation and flex manufacturing, creating a Western supply chain for critical minerals not vulnerable to extortion from other powers, and a unified effort to compete for market share in the economies of the global South. Together we can not only take back control of our own industries and supply chains, we can prosper in the areas that will define the 21st century.

Emma Vigeland (39:06)

So that is basically him speaking about how together the United States should work with the Europeans to exploit the Global south and crowd out China, trying to, I guess, assuage the fears of the Europeans after the Greenland debacle. Will still be on your team, but with the Carney speech, that ship has essentially sailed.

Greg Grandin (39:37)

Yeah, I would think so. And you know, and clearly there's going to be ongoing tensions around, around Greenland and Europe is making moves to workarounds around the United States. So that ship has sailed. In many ways, what's striking about Rubio's speech is that there's no justification. You know, the vision is all just competition. And the only justification for that competition is an implied civilizational superiority against Asia. There's no sense of, you know, economic. You know, I am no fan of the economic order that they put into place after world, after the Cold War, the neoliberal market, globalization. But at least it justified itself on, on a kind of common humanity in the sense that all of the nations of the world have a common interest. And, you know, Even if the reality on the ground was something, something quite different. But now it's just a retreat to a kind of civilizational superiority that's, that's, that's explicitly European. He called the United States the child of Europe. And then, you know, and, and all of the references were to clearly, clearly WASP Europe, white Europe. And, and one of the things that I found interesting is that right at the end the, he cited his, I guess it was like great, great, great, great, great grandparents who were alive in 1776. And it was, it was such a kind of him trying to establish like his blood purity. Like the Spanish Empire used to require people to like document their relatives to show that they had no mixing with mongrels, no mess, design, no mestizah going on. And I kind of felt like that was what Rubio was doing. He said his grandmother was from Sardinia and his grandfather, great, great was from Seville. And you know, it's such a, it's such a race based vision of the world and where Europe is the core, the United States is the expansion of that core. And, and this is what we have to expand and defend. And elsewhere in the speech he explicitly said it, he said there was five centuries of expansion from Columbus till 1945. And after 1945 there's been stagnation. And we have to get back to that dynamism and I guess, and that dynamism, I mean, he listed it. I don't really see it as the equivalent of the frontier. Commercial space travel.

Emma Vigeland (42:26)

Oh, AI. That's all it was about. Right.

Greg Grandin (42:29)

You know, these, you know, the thing about the frontier. The frontier made the sense of an individual and made a modern capitalist self in some ways. Right. And it reinforced this notion of, of individual agency and a self governing, you know, personality. AI is the exact opposite of that. It destroys your sense of self. It dissolves your individuality into, into the singularity. It's not the frontier. So the idea that somehow the AI is going to be the new frontier or commercial space travel, I mean, where, where are people going to go?

Emma Vigeland (43:12)

And, and, and like the, the new frontier created some sort of, I guess, you know, promise for the colonizer and the rank and file colonizer, if you will, as opposed to this vision which is, as you see, say, it's collapsing the individual into what I mean, to borrow from Janus Varoufakis, digital serfdom surveillance serfdom and slop and slop.

Greg Grandin (43:36)

You know, yes, the real, the frontier was both an ideology and a real social experience. There really was a massive amount of space in that. That was. That provided the material foundations of. Of what we now know as modern capitalism. Plantations and Indian removal and westward settlement and the expansion of the railroads. This was an enormous social experiment that did draw the energies and incorporate millions and millions of people. You know, to just use the metaphor of the frontier and apply it to AI and say it's going to do the same thing is just. Just a pipe dream.

Emma Vigeland (44:21)

Right. And it's. And also, even to put it in the same sentence as like, actual genuine artistic contributions from Europe, of course, the motivation behind his listing of those kinds of things is deeply racist. And we should mention that it's within the context of him saying how this is existential in terms of limiting migration. But it just. Yeah, AI and chat bots pale a little bit in comparison to Michelangelo. I don't know. I don't think that's a controversial statement.

Greg Grandin (44:57)

And just to reinforce this idea that what he's trying to do is stretch America first to cover Europe, and then it does change the balance a little bit. So it's on America first. But it is. It is. It is explicitly, you know, you know, white. White supremacy first. Right. Europe, Caucasian first or European inheritance person. And then his claim to some kind of European pedigree.

Emma Vigeland (45:23)

And Rubio's like, that includes me. That includes me. Okay, okay, yeah.

Greg Grandin (45:27)

Yes, I did.

Emma Vigeland (45:29)

Just. Just because I have a vowel at the end of my last name.

Greg Grandin (45:32)

I have the documents. He was like, you know, some peasant from. You know, from. Yeah. You know, back from under the Spanish Empire, trying to prove that his grandfather fought in the conquest or something. I don't know.

Matt (Producer) (45:45)

And there was this part of the speech where he's talking about how we don't fight for abstractions, so we got to fight for the west and nations.

Greg Grandin (45:52)

Yeah, I know. He says we don't. People don't fight for abstractions. Then he lists not a series of abstractions. Civilization, that's not an abstraction. The west, that's not an abstraction. Europe isn't an abstraction. I mean.

Emma Vigeland (46:08)

I mean, it's Orwellian. And not to overuse that, but let's also play this other part, because this is key here. This is part C, because this is where he essentially says that there is no place for the United Nations. There is no place for international law. And if this is, as you were saying, some sort of effort to save face after the Greenland debacle and J.D. vance's speech was so poorly received, just because Rubio has a bit of a softer tone and sounds more like a statesman, doesn't mean that this isn't any less horrifying. Here he is speaking about it and then, you know, addresses Gaza, of course.

Greg Grandin (46:55)

In a sociopath he calls Palestinians barbarian.

Emma Vigeland (46:59)

Right, right. We don't have that, but that was a part of it. Yeah, yeah.

Marco Rubio (47:04)

And finally, we can no longer place the so called global order above the vital interests of our people and our nations. We do not need to abandon the system of international cooperation we authored and we don't need to dismantle the global institutions of the old order that together we built. But these must be reformed, these must be rebuilt. For example, the United nations still has tremendous potential to be a tool for good in the world. But we cannot ignore that today on the most pressing matters before us. It has no answers and has played virtually no role. It could not solve the war in Gaza. Instead it was American leadership that freed captives from barbarians and brought about a fragile truce. It has not solved the war in Ukraine. It took American leadership in partnership with many of the countries here today just to bring the two sides to the table in search of a still elusive peace. It was powerless to constrain the nuclear program of radical Shia clerics in Tehran. That required 14 bombs dropped with precision from American B2 bombers.

Emma Vigeland (48:13)

There you go. So I guess that. And we have Greg here, we can see him, but. Yeah.

Salah Ad Din Maqsood (48:22)

No.

Greg Grandin (48:24)

Am I frozen?

Emma Vigeland (48:25)

No, no, you're here, you're here. But just we had that in case you ended up getting frozen again. But you're back. Greg, just. That was the part where he called them barbarians there. Just react to that if you could.

Greg Grandin (48:40)

Yeah, well, it was striking. I mean, he framed it in a way where he could, he could technically say he was speaking about Hamas because he talked about the captives and. But it's clear that he was, he was dog whistling that Palestinians were barbarians. It was. And the use of barbarians, again, it is, it does go back to the days of Columbus. I mean, he started, you know, he celebrated the days of Columbus. That was the, that's the time frame he wants to go back to, from Columbus to 1945. It's interesting, this focus on the United, the founding of the United nations as when things go wrong. It's also this use of force. It's also why they like the Monroe Doctrine so much, because it's pre international law, it's pre suffrage, it's pre emancipation, it's pre decolonization. You know, it's edenic in this, in just giving the United States the right to drop what, how many bombs on Iran. What did he say 14 bombs on the clerics and whatever he said. I mean, it's just, it's such a, it's such, you know, and coming from Rubio, it sounds so anodyne and antiseptic. But, you know, the terror that the United States wages, the awesome power that the United States, and it's real. I mean, think about Venezuela. You know, I was just thinking about this the other day is like, sovereignty can never be restored to Venezuela ever again. Because, because the United States has made clear that it will, it will just strike again if it doesn't like what Venezuela is doing. I can't imagine a point where it says, okay, now you have sovereignty again. I mean, the United States is basically, I mean, Dilme Rodriguez is governing under the blade, and, and, and whoever comes next will be governing under the blade. And it really is a vicious and violent worldview that, that they're putting forward. It's just a, it's, and, and it's, you know, it's good that, that Rubio is out and out saying he wants to go back to medieval times, to the days of Christopher Columbus and the conquest and the conquistadores and the, and the dogs that rip Native American throats off. And it's, you know, obviously, but obviously they can't, they can't go back to those times because they can't. Europe, Europeans can't pour forth, as he said, out of Europe while at the same time then not letting migrants pour into Europe. I mean, it's just a different world fantasy. It's all just rhetoric and fantasy to justify barbarism.

Emma Vigeland (51:12)

Exactly.

Greg Grandin (51:13)

On their part.

Emma Vigeland (51:15)

And really, just lastly on this, I mean, it was, it's very striking to me how this is such a stereotypically conservative argument where we break international law, we grind the United nations to the halt with our veto power in the Security Council, we veto cease fire resolutions, we claim that UNWRA is a terrorist organization. And then Rubio goes up there and says, well, the United nations has been wholly ineffective. And that is why we need to do away with the entire concept of international law. It's what Republicans do here to social programs. They break them, then they say they don't work, and that's why we have to do away with them altogether.

Greg Grandin (51:54)

I mean, it's been a long time coming. The United States, right from the beginning of the United nations, found workaround to project its power that got more and more aggressive and more and more blatant. By the time you get to Reagan and the Contra war, when the International Court of Justice finds the United states responsible for $17 billion worth of damage on Nicaragua. The United States just decides to pull out of the universal jurisdiction of the International Court. I mean, there's been other times that the United States has ignored and discredited international law. So in some ways this, that this is the terminus, this is the complete kind of rejection of the whole apparatus. But it's been a long time coming.

Emma Vigeland (52:45)

Except for the Nobel Peace Prize, which was rightly given to our dear leader and handed over from the winner who she should not have gotten. It should have gone to this guy who's embracing white nationalism as our foreign policy, essentially.

Greg Grandin (53:03)

I know, I know. Think of all those doctors and working in Gaza that I know.

Emma Vigeland (53:10)

Yeah, exactly right. But it kind of symbolizes the hollowness that at the very least is being acknowledged for the first time in quite a while of the rules based order. Greg Grandin, always a pleasure. Everyone should read your book America, America, A New History of the New World. Pulitzer Prize winning author, history professor at Yale University. Thanks so much for coming on today.

Greg Grandin (53:33)

Thanks, Em. It's always great, always great.

Emma Vigeland (53:37)

Quick break, folks. And when we come back, we'll be talking to Saladin Maqsut of CAIR about this horrible story of this Palestinian woman from New Jersey who is still in ICE custody. We are back. And we are joined now by Sulla Adin Maqsood, executive director of the Council on Islam, American Islamic Relations in New Jersey. Sulla Ad Din, thank you so much for coming on the show today.

Salah Ad Din Maqsood (55:05)

Thank you for having me.

Emma Vigeland (55:07)

So we're here to discuss this, this case, this really important case that has not gotten enough detention. Laka Cordia, she is a Palestinian woman from New Jersey, my home state. She's 33 years old, originally from the West Bank. She participated in the protests at Columbia University, was not a student, but was arrested in 2024. The charges against her were dropped the next day. But then a year later, 2025, she's arrested by ICE and she's now been held by ICE for almost a full year. What is the latest on her case?

Salah Ad Din Maqsood (55:47)

Yeah, thank you, Emma. Yeah, La cause case is really troubling. There's so much to be said. I mean, honestly, there are just like layers of injustice with her situation. Everything from an assault to free speech, lack of due process and honestly, a lack of like concern for humanity and her condition. And that brings me to the point of like the most latest concern, that is her health. She was recently brought to a hospital because of a seizure that she had while she was in ICE detention in Texas. And it's important to know that Lacaud does not have, like, a prior history of any health concerns. It may have triggered this seizure. She developed this condition while she was in ICE detention. That's because of the lack of basic accommodations and healthy services to keep her sustained throughout this year. I mean, family have gone to visit her and they've described her as like, physically. You can see that she has. The detention has had a toll on her body. On her body. And it's very concerning.

Emma Vigeland (56:57)

But, yeah, yeah. I mean, she wrote an op ed in January in USA Today that was published where she spoke a little bit about what she'd been experiencing. I just want to read a section from it. She said, my detention began on March 13, 2025, when I voluntarily went to ICE headquarters in Newark, New Jersey, for what I believe to be a routine. What I believe to be routine immigration questions. I came to the United States on a valid visa in 2016 and mistakenly relinquished my student visa on my path to pursuing permanent residency through my US Citizen mother. Instead, I was thrown into an unmarked van and sent 1,500 miles away from my home in Patterson, New Jersey, where I've been working various jobs in waitressing and retail to help support myself, my mother, and my younger brother with special needs. She talks a little bit more about her history and it's just injustice upon injustice, of course. As a Palestinian, she writes. I was born in occupied East Jerusalem and raised in the west bank with my father. I grew up smelling tear gas on a daily basis and seeing him humiliated by Israeli soldiers. I once woke up to an Israeli soldier pointing his rifle at my head as I lay in bed. I was only nine years old. I spent the first few years of my life in Gaza with my mother until the Israeli siege no longer made travel back and forth possible. I was separated from her for nearly 20 years before reuniting with her here in the United States in 2016. In a cruel twist of fate, I now find myself forcibly cut off from her once again. So the Israeli government had her separated from her mother for two decades. She comes to the United States, is reunited with her, attends a protest because she had hundreds of her family members killed by Israel in Gaza, attends a protest, and then a year later, ICE arrests her when she's trying to go to her actually scheduled date, doing this legally and has held her in Texas for a year.

Salah Ad Din Maqsood (59:05)

Yeah, and honestly, the description that you.

Greg Grandin (59:07)

Offer.

Salah Ad Din Maqsood (59:09)

I keep telling myself it just sounds like this is the activities and actions of, like, a rogue government. You Know, when Americans criticize activities overseas, dictatorships and, you know, crazy regimes that treat their citizens with disrespect and, you know, there's no rule of law, there's no institutions or structures or processes, they just disregard all of that and they operate in a rogue manner. That's what's happening. That's what happened to LACA and continues to happen. And not to mention the fact that if people ask, oh, this is just immigration enforcement, this is what immigration enforcement looks like. No, it doesn't. Not when an immigration judge calls not once, but twice to have her released, okay, where's the enforcement there? Why aren't we following the orders of the immigration judge in the federal government? Right? But there's a total disregard for that. Total disregard for due process, total disregard for the rule of law, total disregard for the courts, total disregard for the systems and institutions that we have that we pride ourselves on as Americans, right? We say, look, we're a civilized nation. You know, we are an upright nation. You know, we have a great example for others to learn and follow from. And yet here we are, totally disregarding our own courts, our own judges, our own institutions, and instead unfairly, unjustly keeping this poor woman in detention for now almost a year. And you said it yourself, right? Layers of injustice are so obvious, too. And it's like, okay, well, immigration is one thing, but what got her in this in the first place is her protesting, right? And it's the free speech that you and I have, that we all have, that we get to exercise, was assaulted. She can't say things like, free Palestine, organize against the genocide, be active, assemble with her friends and her family on a college campus. That is what led her to her detention. And it is insane to think that this is happening here in America. And it's important to note, too, that she is actually the last of that of the group that was arrested from earlier, earlier last year from Colombia. And I mean, other Mahmoud Khalil and others have already been released, and yet she is the last one in Texas of all places. It's very, very disheartening. I was at a press conference last week where her family was there, and I didn't even know how to confront her mother and her sister. It was so heartbreaking because their daughter has been locked up I don't know how many miles away from their home. And while especially not, you know, to also mention the fact that the holy month of Ramadan is, you know, right at their door, and they want to fast and engage in worship and be with family and community and you know, Ramadan is a special time for Muslims and she doesn't get to have any of that.

Emma Vigeland (62:10)

She's also been denied halal food. According to this op ed, inside the ICE facility where I'm being held, conditions are filthy, overcrowded and inhumane. For months I slept in, in a plastic shell known as a boat, surrounded by cockroaches. And only a thin blanket privacy does not exist here. As an observant Muslim woman, I struggle to find a clean, quiet space to pray. I have lost a significant amount of weight. The food is so bad that it makes me vomit. I am now avoiding eating it, instead opting to consume packaged foods from the commissary. Despite my continued requests, I have still been denied reasonable access to halal food. We should also note that she's still being held despite two judge orders ordering her release on bond. Can you explain how the hell that is even happening?

Salah Ad Din Maqsood (62:57)

Yeah. Now I'm no attorney, I'm no expert, but from my understanding, once the judge made that, that order and called for her to be released and explicitly said that she's no threat to our nation, that there should be, there's no reason why she should be continued to be detained. It was the same day that ICE appeal, that judges ruling. Not much time to think about it. You know, talk about a slap in the face. You know, she describes it herself as that. And it's, it's offensive. It's, it's an offense, not only to her, but it's an offense to our due process system, to our laws. Right. And a disregard for that. And that's how the Trump administration has been operating since day one. Yeah. In this very rogue manner.

Emma Vigeland (63:42)

And this is a little bit of an aside to this particular case here, but there was a recent investigation and some other reporting. I think the Guardians investigation was first, but then there were others that found that the United States has basically been deporting Palestinians back to the west bank or flying them to Israel basically. And then they are sent to the west bank with private jets that ICE is chartering because some Zionist donor to Donald Trump has offered his services on that front. Can you speak about that? And I guess how that fits overall into, you know, how Palestinians are being targeted by this administration via ice.

Salah Ad Din Maqsood (64:33)

Yeah, I'm not exactly sure about the nature of who's funding what, but what I do know is that the Zionists are definitely behind a lot of these attentions. The Zionists have since day one been very vocal about it. I don't know if you're familiar with the story about Sami Hamdi out of California. Sami Hamdi was an international journalist from the uk. He's a UK national, and he was coming to the United States for a speaking tour and he was detained by ice. He was actually trying to fly from California to, I believe, Florida for a CARE banquet. He was detained by ICE and then later let go. But why? Because Zionists advocated publicly and internally to get him detained. What's his crime? What did he do that was so audacious and irresponsible that was deserving of detention? Spoke out against the genocide. He was vocal and actively calling for accountability. And because of his platform, because of the audience that he has globally, ICE very carefully followed the orders of many of the Zionist activists and influencers and those in and out of government and made the arrest. So Sami Hamdi, like many others, and like Mahmoud Khalil and Lacat included, it is their advocacy on Palestine that frightens so many of the influential Zionists in outside of government. And so their approach is just to hammer that and frighten people and scare them into submission.

Emma Vigeland (66:15)

This is again, a bit of an aside, but I'm wondering if you could just reflect a little bit on what we saw out of Minneapolis, because I still do not. I still think people are not fully grappling with also the Islamophobia of the targeting of Somali Americans in particular. I know that your organization has been doing great work on that front, but you're New Jersey focused, so perhaps it's a little bit outside of your purview. But can you just reflect on the past few months and that under discussed element of anti Muslim bigotry being involved?

Salah Ad Din Maqsood (66:52)

Yeah, I mean, the rhetoric coming out of the Trump administration is just. You would never expect any other president to act in this way, to act in such a disgraceful, despicable, racist manner. And that rhetoric opens the door for bad actors and puts people in harm's way. You're putting crosshairs on the back of the Muslim community, whether it's Minneapolis or in Paterson, New Jersey, or any other part of the country where there are Muslim communities that live and thrive and contribute, you are putting them in harm's way. When you speak ill, when you, when you accuse them of crime and when you criminalize them and vilify them. This rhetoric has consequences. And people who are emboldened by this rhetoric and follow Trump and his kind of camp could, God forbid, take action. And this is the concern, this is the fear. And what we have noticed across the CARE Network and across the country is that, yes, like, Islamophobia has gone up. Hate crimes, intimidation, harassment against American Muslims has gone up since Trump has taken office. And the stories that have Minneapolis are really troubling. You know, we're far from that the grounds there. But we hear from within the network about what's going on, and it's really, really concerning. And what we noticed too, Islamophobia, especially nowadays with the Trump administration, is it's almost like a top down kind of effect where it's coming largely from elected officials. We're seeing, like Randy Fine from Florida, Trump himself, of course, and many others who spew this rhetoric and this hate and kind of rally up their base and gear, all of this energy to vilify and target the American Muslim community. Where is this coming from? Where is this coming from?

Emma Vigeland (68:54)

Like, right, well, Stephen Miller's a pretty massive Zionist. I mean, his hatred of Latino people is pretty well documented, but people don't talk enough about his, especially at Duke, how radicalized he became as an anti Muslim bigot. Yeah, yeah. So, well, lastly, and before we let you go, is there anything that you think our audience should know or would like to kind of send them in the direction to help Laca Cordia or advocate for her release? What would you suggest to people?

Salah Ad Din Maqsood (69:33)

Yeah, a couple things. You know, before I speak about the car, I do also want to mention that I think the tides are turning here, especially in Jersey. People may have seen the results of Lilia Maria's campaign.

Emma Vigeland (69:46)

Oh, yeah.

Salah Ad Din Maqsood (69:46)

And she was bold and vocal and unapologetic and did really well, obviously, and is successful and from Glen Ridge.

Emma Vigeland (69:55)

I just got to say this, I didn't know she was literally from my hometown. I knew she was representing my district, but she from my hometown. So shout out to her.

Salah Ad Din Maqsood (70:04)

That's awesome. That's awesome. Yeah. So, you know, like, you know, there's, there's hope and there's, you know, we're excited for candidates like her and we're doing ours. You know, obviously CARE is a C3 organization, but there's a lot that we're following and we're monitoring and her support the Muslim community and her rebuke of AIPAC is really important. But on the case of Lekat, I mean, if you're from New Jersey, you know, exercise your right and call upon your elected officials. I mean, we have seen some comments come from our senators and from her representative, Nellie Poe. But we need more than just tweets. I mean, we appreciate the tweets, but we need action. We need, like, Bold steps to be taken by our congressional representatives. Maybe lead a delegation to Texas or do some oversight in these centers as they've done here in Delaney hall in Newark. So raise your voice. Tell her story. Speak to your elected officials at all levels of government. Have them pressure those higher up to get some action. That's what we're doing at care. We're going to continue to do until she's free. Inshallah.

Emma Vigeland (71:12)

Inshallah. One actual real follow up before I let you go, because I am curious about this. You know, New Jersey has one of the largest kind of Palestinian diaspora communities in the country. Yeah. Have you noticed any change from elected representatives in how they've dealt with the Palestinian community, specifically in North Jersey since the genocide has started, since there's been more backlash and more public kind of support for Palestinian liberation?

Salah Ad Din Maqsood (71:47)

Yeah, I mean, it's been a rocky two years. And what I'll tell you is this, though. So it's become obvious who are our friends and who are those who are willing to take a check and, you know, move on.

Emma Vigeland (71:59)

Cory Booker. Yeah.

Salah Ad Din Maqsood (72:01)

I'm not naming any names, but yeah. So unfortunately that's the case. And what is it? What we are seeing, at least I'll speak to the American Muslim community is they become much more organized politically and they've built allies and friendships, especially with dsa, for example, like locally, very strong relationships with such organizations and progressive groups. And that has allowed them to leverage their power, collective power, with the numbers to make a difference locally at the state level and now even through, like the congressional races as well. So we're optimistic about that. But yeah.

Emma Vigeland (72:40)

Well, really, thank you so much for coming on today. Salah Ad Din Maqsood, executive Director of CARE in New Jersey, the Council on American Islamic Relations. And we'll put links down below to everything that you're referencing here. So appreciate your time today. Thanks so much.

Salah Ad Din Maqsood (73:01)

Yeah, thanks for having me.

Emma Vigeland (73:02)

Of course. With that, folks, we're going to wrap up the free part of this program. We have a special guest for the fun half. I guess I've been keeping this close to the vest, but maybe we'll just introduce her on the other side.

Matt (Producer) (73:16)

No, we should give somebody. Let the free people know what they're missing out.

Emma Vigeland (73:20)

Okay. The free people know, so people may remember. We've had Rachel on the show before. Rachel Cohen, you should follow her on Instagram and on social media. But we played that glorious clip of her confronting Greg Bovino in Minneapolis about his height. And we're gonna be talking about that. And more maybe making fun of some horrible Democrats in the fun half with Rachel. But I'm so glad to have her in studio when Sam's out. It's girl time, baby. So we're going to be talking about all of that, having some fun in the fun half. Matt, what's happening on Left Reckoning with the Jackman show?

Matt (Producer) (74:01)

Yeah, there was a new Jackman show on Friday and actually there's another one coming up on this Friday with Cornel West, David Tucker, Cornel west and Left reckoning. Tomorrow at 2:30 Eastern Time, we'll have a new show for y'.

Salah Ad Din Maqsood (74:19)

All.

Matt (Producer) (74:19)

There may be a little update on the main race and some other stuff for folks. So check that out.

Emma Vigeland (74:23)

Patreon.com leftrecorting and we will put this, I believe it's already in the description, but I haven't had a chance to plug in person that if you Los Angeles people or Los Angeles area people, California people, if you want to see an extravaganza with myself and Francesca Fiorentini, That's the hype music. We're going to be coming out too. I mean, honestly, maybe we should. I have yet to brainstorm with Francesco a little bit about what we're going to be doing for the live show. I know we have some special guests in the tank. They are very, very exciting. So we're working on that. But Francesca Fiorentini and I are going to be doing a live show. I'm going to be her guest. It's the Bituation room. So I got second billing as I should for in, in LA March 20th, I should notice.

Greg Grandin (75:24)

March 22nd.

Emma Vigeland (75:25)

March 22nd. Thank you, MacArthur Park, Los Angeles. Thank you, Brian. Thank you. Link down below. Get the tickets while you can before we announce these special guests. And you know, people are going to be flocking to get these tickets. So link down below. Dynasty typewriter. Very excited to get out west, especially because we were talking about this and getting this planned when it was like the coldest possible time here in New York. And I just couldn't think about anything else getting out of the it's at least a little bit nice. Nicer now, but it'll be a really fun time.

Matt (Producer) (76:01)

So still like 33 degrees. Like even I'm, I'm sick of this winter. Hate it.

Emma Vigeland (76:05)

It's the worst winter that I feel like we've lived.

Matt (Producer) (76:08)

It's literally the worst in 20 years. So it's the worst that I've experienced here.

Emma Vigeland (76:11)

I mean, definitely it's been, it's been rough. All right. Folks, we will see you in the fun half in a second.

Rachel Cohen (76:22)

Three months from now, six months from now, nine months from now. And I don't think it's going to be the same as it looks like in six months from now. And I don't know if it's necessarily going to be better six months from now than it is three months from now, but I think around 18 months out, we're going to look back and go like, wow.

Greg Grandin (76:39)

What?

Rachel Cohen (76:40)

What is that going on? It's nuts.

Salah Ad Din Maqsood (76:44)

Wait a second. Hold on.

Rachel Cohen (76:46)

Hold on for a second.

Marco Rubio (76:50)

Emma.

Rachel Cohen (76:50)

Welcome to the program.

Emma Vigeland (76:53)

Matt.

Rachel Cohen (76:55)

What is up, everyone?

Emma Vigeland (76:59)

No. Me Keen. You did it.

Rachel Cohen (77:01)

Fun hat.

Emma Vigeland (77:02)

Let's go, Brandon.

Marco Rubio (77:03)

Let's go, Brandon.

Rachel Cohen (77:04)

Fun hat. Bradley, you want to say hello?

Greg Grandin (77:09)

Sorry to disappoint everyone. I'm just a random guy.

Rachel Cohen (77:12)

It's all the boys today.

Emma Vigeland (77:13)

Fundamentally false. No. I'm sorry.

Rachel Cohen (77:15)

Women's talking for a second.

Emma Vigeland (77:18)

Let me finish. Where is this coming from, dude?

Greg Grandin (77:20)

But. Dude, you want to smoke this?

Rachel Cohen (77:23)

7A.

Emma Vigeland (77:24)

Yes.

Salah Ad Din Maqsood (77:27)

Hi.

Rachel Cohen (77:27)

Me.

Greg Grandin (77:29)

Is me.

Emma Vigeland (77:30)

Yes.

Greg Grandin (77:33)

Is this me?

Emma Vigeland (77:35)

Is it me?

Rachel Cohen (77:36)

It is you?

Greg Grandin (77:39)

Is this me? Oh, it's me.

Rachel Cohen (77:41)

Think it is you. Who is you?

Greg Grandin (77:45)

No sound.

Rachel Cohen (77:46)

Every single freaking day. What's on your mind?

Emma Vigeland (77:49)

Sports.

Greg Grandin (77:50)

We can discuss free markets and we can discuss capitalism.

Emma Vigeland (77:53)

I'm gonna go smart.

Rachel Cohen (77:54)

Libertarians, they're so stupid. Though common sense says of course.

Emma Vigeland (77:58)

Gobbledygook.

Rachel Cohen (77:59)

We nailed him.

Emma Vigeland (78:01)

So what's 79 plus 21?

Rachel Cohen (78:03)

Challenge.

Salah Ad Din Maqsood (78:03)

Man, I'm positively quivering.

Rachel Cohen (78:05)

I believe 96. I want to say 8, 5, 7.

Emma Vigeland (78:08)

2, 1, 0, 35.

Rachel Cohen (78:09)

501, 1 half.

Matt (Producer) (78:11)

3, 8, 9, 11.

Salah Ad Din Maqsood (78:12)

For instance.

Emma Vigeland (78:13)

$3,400. $1900.

Rachel Cohen (78:14)

5, 4, $3 trillion.

Greg Grandin (78:18)

Sold.

Rachel Cohen (78:19)

It's a zero sum game.

Emma Vigeland (78:20)

Actually. You're making me think less.

Rachel Cohen (78:22)

But let me say this.

Greg Grandin (78:25)

You call it satire.

Marco Rubio (78:26)

Sam goes satire.

Emma Vigeland (78:28)

On top of it all. My favorite part about you is just like every day, all day, like, everything.

Greg Grandin (78:33)

You do without a up.

Rachel Cohen (78:35)

Hey, buddy, we see you. All right, folks, folks, folks.

Emma Vigeland (78:44)

It's just the week being weeded out, obviously. Yeah.

Rachel Cohen (78:47)

Sun's out, guns out. I, I, I don't know.

Emma Vigeland (78:53)

But you should know.

Greg Grandin (78:56)

People just don't.

Matt (Producer) (78:57)

Like to entertain ideas.

Rachel Cohen (78:58)

I have a question. Who cares?

Matt (Producer) (79:02)

Our chat is enabled, folks.

Rachel Cohen (79:05)

I love it.

Emma Vigeland (79:06)

I do love that. Gotta jump.

Salah Ad Din Maqsood (79:09)

Gotta be quick.

Rachel Cohen (79:10)

I gotta jump.

Greg Grandin (79:11)

I'm losing it, bro.

Rachel Cohen (79:14)

Two o', clock, we're already late and the guy's being a dick. So screw him. Sent to a gulag.

Emma Vigeland (79:21)

Outrageous.

Rachel Cohen (79:22)

Like, what is wrong with you?

Greg Grandin (79:25)

Love you.

Emma Vigeland (79:26)

Bye. Love you. Bye. Bye.