3582 - MAGA's Free Speech Split?; Trump Goads Venezuela w/ Will Sommer & Jose Luis Granados Ceja

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Majority Report with Sam Seder

Episode 3582: "MAGA's Free Speech Split?; Trump Goads Venezuela"
Date: September 16, 2025
Hosts: Emma Vigeland (in for Sam Seder), with Matt Lech, Michael Brooks, Derek Davison
Main Guests: Will Sommer (The Bulwark), Jose Luis Granados Ceja (Venezuela Analysis, Canal Once)

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Overview

This episode centers on two explosive topics in US and global politics: the fallout inside the MAGA movement following the assassination of right-wing figure Charlie Kirk, especially around issues of free speech and Israel, and the Trump administration’s escalatory military actions against Venezuela. Through interviews, panel discussion, and critical analysis, the show breaks down the political realignment, conspiracy theories, and authoritarian impulses shaping these pivotal controversies.

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Key Segments & Insights

1. Breaking News & Political Landscape

[02:34–07:54]

• Charlie Kirk Assassination Fallout: The program opens with Emma Vigeland recapping major news: the Republican Party’s response to the killing of Charlie Kirk, with states like Texas and Florida targeting “insensitive” teachers and Trump administration figures calling for federal investigations into progressive groups and media.
• FBI Director Kash Patel’s Hearings: Kash Patel testifies before Senate and is grilled about politically motivated firings at the FBI, including agents involved with the Mar-a-Lago documents case and the pipe bomb investigation.
• Other Headlines: UN accuses Israel of genocide in Gaza, Spain to boycott Eurovision over Israel’s participation, and the Trump administration removes references to slavery from US national parks.

Quote

“Republicans attack free speech with states like Texas and Florida opening investigations into teachers who they claim were insensitive about Kirk's killing... Trump and Vance call for investigations of their own into progressive organizations and newspapers.”
—Emma Vigeland [03:56]

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2. FBI Under Kash Patel: Purge and Politicization

[05:54–20:53]

• FBI Staffing Purges: Panelists discuss ex-Trump influencer Kash Patel’s role in the FBI—firing agents for political reasons, particularly those tied to Jan. 6 investigations.
• Pipe Bomb Case Evasion: Patel evades direct questions on fringe conspiracy theories (like Dan Bongino’s ‘inside job’ claim) and refuses to provide evidence, instead appealing to his credentials.
• Panel Skepticism: The crew highlights the incompetence and dangerous ramifications of Patel’s highly public, politicized handling of the Charlie Kirk case.

Notable Exchange

Senate Committee Member: "What is the evidence to suggest the pipe bombs placed outside the DNC and RNC on January 6 were an inside job?"
Kash Patel: "The pipe bomb investigation is ongoing and I'm not going to discuss details..."
—[15:20–15:51]

Emma Vigeland: “The fact that he's coming out and going on Fox News with all these theories and revealing evidence and then having to take it back... the defense attorney, whoever takes this case, an infinite amount of material to question the government.” [18:06]

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3. MAGA Free Speech Splits & Right Wing Conspiracies

[28:42–51:26] (Interview with Will Sommer)

Conspiracy Theories and Israel as Fault Line

• Speculation & Conspiracy: Will Sommer details how Kirk’s death has inflamed right-wing online infighting, as many hoped the suspect would be an ideological fit ("a blue hair SJW type") but facts remain ambiguous.
• Israel Divides the Right: The main split is around Israel—Candace Owens and Tucker Carlson take anti-Israel or antisemitic lines, feuding with more traditional pro-Israel voices.
• Influencers and Donors: Rumors circulate (spread by Owens) that Charlie Kirk was threatened over not toeing a pro-Israel line; billionaire Bill Ackman, Turning Point donors, and other influencers are implicated in conspiracy narratives.

Reaction to Government “Hate Speech” Crackdown

• Pam Bondi & Trump’s Rhetoric: Attorney General Bondi threatens increased prosecution of “hate speech”; Trump himself jokes about targeting unfriendly journalists.
• MAGA Base Backlash: Some right-wing figures are uneasy about hate speech laws—panelists note a confusion over “hate speech” vs. “purges”—but Trump’s base and institutional party seem coordinated and largely unbothered by free speech implications.

Notable Quotes

“They really wanted a blue hair SJW type…and it's a lot more muddled...instead they sort of seem to be turning to a lot of conspiracy theories.”
—Will Sommer, [29:29]

“It feels like the influencers you're talking about are seizing on [the Israel fault line] in ways that I think we should be very concerned about, because...when you conflate Zionism and Judaism, this is the eventual reality and they are the outgrowth of that.”
—Emma Vigeland, [36:18]

“Trump said it the other day—‘you call us Nazis, that's hate speech.’ Is it? Or is it an accurate portrayal of your frickin ideology?”
—Emma Vigeland, [48:48]

“The only way to get 20% off is to go to JoinDeleteMe.com Majority and enter code Majority at checkout. That's JoinDeleteMe.com Majority code Majority link below in the video description and episode description...”
—Emma Vigeland (advertiser message) [25:01–26:50]

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4. US Escalation with Venezuela: Bombings and “Rogue” Policy

[52:39–75:54] (Interview with Jose Luis Granados Ceja)

Second Bombing & Legal Violations

• US Bombs Venezuelan Boats: Host and guest detail two US strikes against alleged drug trafficking boats, killings now totaling over a dozen, with scant evidence these were drug operations.
• Intended to Goad Venezuela: Granados Ceja says attacks are to provoke a response and intimidate—pattern is forming of direct military aggression, violating international law and Venezuelan sovereignty.
• Rubio and Regional Imperialism: Secretary of State Marco Rubio and other “hawks” are driving the belligerence, aiming to reign in anti-capitalist governments and “secure resources and cheap labor.”

Mexico and Broader Signal

• US Shows Force: Stealth jets deployed to Puerto Rico, “show of force” intended for all of Latin America, not just Venezuela; meant to counter Chinese trade expansion.
• Mexico Holds Leverage: Mexico remains insulated thanks to economic interdependence, but is being sent a message—don’t cross the US or “cooperate” will end, with disastrous results for both economies.

Notable Quotes

“What we're seeing is extrajudicial executions carried out by the Trump administration as part of a broader agenda that goes back to previous governments...aimed at intimidating and ultimately trying to oust the government in Venezuela.”
—Jose Luis Granados Ceja, [53:14]

“They're playing with fire and I think they're trying to say, well, look, we're willing to do it, so you better play nice with us and, you know, cooperate with us.”
—Jose Luis Granados Ceja, [64:02]

“It's a combination of two very failed wars. Right—the war on terrorism, and the war on drugs. And this combination, as if somehow that's going to miraculously produce a better result.”
—Jose Luis Granados Ceja, [69:30]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [02:34] Emma Vigeland opens with headlines and outlines the MAGA response to Kirk’s killing.
• [13:00] Discussion on political purges at the FBI under Kash Patel.
• [14:33] Senate Committee grilling of Kash Patel over Jan 6 pipe bomb case and FBI politicization.
• [28:42] Interview with Will Sommer on MAGA infighting, Israel as a fault line, and hate speech crackdown.
• [52:39] Interview with Jose Luis Granados Ceja on US bombings in Venezuela and their international implications.

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Memorable Moments & Quotes

• “How dare you question my seven years of doing the copy machine.” —Matt Lech, satirizing Kashmir Patel's indignant defense [18:29]
• “Tucker was on the sort of J.D. Vance hosted Charlie Kirk show and he said…‘I'm sick of Benjamin Netanyahu talking about Charlie Kirk in Israel’…” —Will Sommer on right-wing realignments [31:00]
• “[Militarism in Venezuela is] a combination of two very failed wars… somehow thinking they're going to bring them together is going to actually attend to this problem? Of course not.” —Jose Luis Granados Ceja [69:30]
• “Trump said…‘maybe [Pam Bondi will] come after you, Jonathan Karl, if you keep it up’” —Emma Vigeland on how “hate speech” is being defined in practice [48:48]

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Tone & Style

• Irreverent, sharp, and deeply critical—especially in their mockery of right-wing hypocrisy and overreach.
• Journalistically robust: well-researched, clear attributions, and rich in historical context.
• Frequent dark humor & sarcasm—contributes to a feeling of camaraderie against authoritarian impulses.

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Summary for New Listeners

This episode provides a deep, critical look at the rapidly emerging authoritarianism on the American right. From the handling of the Kirk assassination to Trump’s overt military provocations in Latin America, the Majority Report team, alongside expert guests, scrutinize the splintering inside MAGA, the threat to free speech, and neocolonialist foreign policy. Listeners are left with a sense of urgency about defending constitutional freedoms and understanding the global context of American politics in 2025.

For those tracking authoritarian trends, media ecosystems, and US foreign policy, this is a can’t-miss episode.

Transcript

[Emma Vigeland]

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[Michael Brooks]

The Majority Report with Sam Cedar.

[Emma Vigeland]

It is Tuesday, September 16, 2025. My name is Emma Vigeland in for Sam Cedar and this is the five time award winning Majority Report. We are broadcasting live steps from the industrially ravaged Gowanus Canal in the heartland of America, downtown Brooklyn, usa. On the program today, Will Sommer of the Bulwark joins us to talk about the Trump administration's free speech crackdown and the MAGA fissures following the killing of Charlie Kirk. Also on the program, Jose Luis Granados Sia will be with us to talk about the administration's second bombing of a. Well, bombing of a second Venezuelan vote. Also on the program, FBI director and Wide Awake man Cash Patel. I added that part. Is testifying before the Senate Oversight Committee today, being asked about his expressly political firings of FBI agents. Bungling the Kirk case so far and more hasn't even been a week. Republicans attack free speech with states like Texas and Florida opening investigations into teachers who they claim were insensitive about Kirk's killing. And on the federal level, Trump and Vance call for investigations of their own into progressive organizations and newspapers. Two Republicans introduced separate resolutions to censure Ilhan Omar again for daring to mention Kirk's record of hateful rhetoric in an interview. Anything to distract from their role in escalating rhetoric. Last night, a federal appeals court denied the Trump administration's last minute attempt to fire Lisa Cook. The Fed meets on setting interest rates today. The UN officially accuses Israel of committing genocide in Gaza as the IDF pummels what is left of Gaza City. Rubio heads to Qatar to salvage all peace talks after Israel bombed the mediating country. Spain threatens to boycott Eurovision if Israel is allowed to compete, which that's pretty good. The idea what is your Eurovision? Eurovision, it's a big deal. Russia was barred from all of this international competition, but not Israel. Are you joking?

[Matt Lech]

Also, where's Israel?

[Derek Davison]

Right?

[Emma Vigeland]

Right. Well, it kind of gives away the game that they want to compete in.

[Matt Lech]

Eurovision and they're in Euro basket, too.

[Emma Vigeland]

It's ridiculous. Makes you think a judge has dropped a New York state terrorism charge. Or both. Sorry, New York state terrorism charges against Luigi Mangioni. That's some good news. Trump orders the removal of information on state slavery at multiple national parks, including a historic photo of a formerly enslaved man showing his scarred back down there. And lastly, Mississippi declares an infant deaths emergency as Trump's CDC cuts have destroyed their medical infrastructure, particularly on women's health. All this and more on today's Majority Report. Welcome to the show, everybody. It is News Day Tuesday. Sam is out. He may have explained that he had a death in the family, so he will not be in today or tomorrow. We give our condolences to the whole Cedar Clan. We love them over there. Sam, Julie, etc. Sorry for their loss. You'll be stuck with me for the next few days, but we obviously have a lot of news to get to and some great guests coming up. We'll start just with what's happening this morning on the Hill. Kash Patel this morning appeared in front of the Senate Judiciary Committee. Tomorrow he is slated to appear in front of the House Judiciary Committee, which will be quite fiery. I have a little bit more faith in House leadership or, you know, Jamie Raskin handling this. Although Dick Durbin had some good questions here, there's a lot that Cash Patel could be questioned on. Questioned on? He was asked, as of this morning, I think the hearing is still ongoing about a variety of different issues, including the extrajudicial bombing of a second Venezuelan boat with baseless claims about how. Or not. Maybe not baseless, but without evidence, free claims about how these were drug traffickers. The Epstein cover up is obviously central at this point.

[Matt Lech]

Highly dubious, because what kind of drug traffickers just are like, 12 people in a boat need 12 people to smuggle drugs?

[Emma Vigeland]

Yeah.

[Matt Lech]

Is that how that usually works?

[Jose Luis Granados]

I don't.

[Matt Lech]

I mean, they're trying to go.

[Emma Vigeland]

They're trying to goad Venezuela into a response.

[Matt Lech]

They want to have a war.

[Emma Vigeland]

I mean. And also, isn't the FBI supposed to be involved here in domestic law enforcement? What the hell is Kash Patel even doing? Involved and needing to be questioned about this kind of action. He was also questioned about his widely reported enemies list. There's also this matter of he had that list. Not questioned about his other literary works, which perhaps we can get to later. We still have his children's book somewhere around here in which he made himself the main character.

[Michael Brooks]

I read it to my baby every night.

[Emma Vigeland]

A few days ago, the former FBI agents filed a lawsuit against both Pam Bondi and Cash Patel about their firings. And before we get to this question about the pipe bomb investigation, I wanted to read a little bit from this New York Times article this morning where they interviewed these FBI agents that are suing Chris Meyer, a field agent assigned to fly the FBI Director. Cash Patel's plan until last month knew he was in trouble over the summer when a pro Trump influencer claimed, without a wisp of proof, that he was the main agent in the Mar A Lago documents investigation. Can we put this up on the screen? Mr. Meyer said he was never assigned to the case. Moreover, he added, he was on a lakeside vacation with his family in Virginia when the FBI conducted its first significant move in the inquiry, the search of Donald J. Trump's Florida residence and Resort in August 2022. Now, let me just remind people of what that was. Trump took a bunch of classified documents from the White House after he lost the presidential election. The new FBI under Biden made repeated requests for him to return the documents he kept dodging doing so eventually they returned some and they immediately noticed that a lot of them were missing. So after trying to ask nicely and you could see that Mike Pence returned some documents he accidentally took. Joe Biden did the same thing. They when they were asked and it was discovered that they these documents were taken, they ended up returning them. Trump hoarded them and refused to comply when asked about it. And they were yeah left in the Mar A lago bathroom in those.in those.

[Matt Lech]

You can squeeze in there. Just be careful you use for to yeah.

[Emma Vigeland]

So it was clearly like a last resort action by the authorities to do this. They didn't want this kind of high profile incident, but Trump is such a criminal and a crook that they were forced to do so anyway. This guy was not a part of this investigation, but a MAGA influencer said it so it was inflammatory, Mr. Meyer, 43, said in an interview last week. It was false. No matter. Last month, Mr. Patel summarily fired Mr. Meyer and another top agent in the Washington, D.C. field office who had been targeted by the right Walter Giardina. Mr. Patel did so after being told that the terminations were unlawful and that punishing out or pushing out Mr. Giardina, who was caring for his dying wife, she died a few days later after being fired. She had stage four cancer, would be inexcusably cruel, according to a lawsuit filed by three FBI supervisors, also dismissed by Patel. And then there's this other piece that was just insane. Go to the part around 10am Around 10am Aug. 5, Brian Driscoll, who had run the FBI for several weeks before Mr. Patel arrived, walked into his successor's office on the seventh floor of bureau headquarters to plead for Mr. Meyer, whom he respected. Mr. Driscoll, who had already gained folk hero status in the FBI for refusing Justice Department orders to compile a list of agents who worked on January six cases, suggested that dismissing agents who had lawfully executed orders from prosecutors would set a bad precedent. Are you really listening to this guy? Mr. Driscoll asked, referring to Kyle Serafin, a right wing podcaster and former FBI agent who made the accusation against Mr. Meyer, according to three people briefed on the interaction. Are we really allowing him to influence decisions when Mr. Yes. When Mr. Driscoll implored him to speak directly to Mr. Meyer, Mr. Patel refused. Those people added, so he's also chicken shit. He's firing him, but he doesn't want to say it to his face.

[Matt Lech]

Basically this is about this is about taking anyone out of the FBI who worked on Gen 6 pruning the FBI to be more MAGA, to be more MAGA.

[Emma Vigeland]

And this was some. Right. This was some of the line of questioning where Patel denied this, obviously. But compare that incredible and obvious politicization and political reasoning behind the decisions to Patel's answer here when asked by Dick Durbin about another investigation that is still ongoing and his claims about it, which are these pipe bombs that were placed outside of the DNC and RNC on January 6th and they still have not been able to identify who did that, and there have been rewards put out, et cetera. But this was on January 5th, right before January 6th. We don't need to speculate too much, but there were a lot of Trump supporters in the area on January 6, just on a number. If you're unable to identify who this person is antifa and given who, then, you know, committed all of these lawless acts killing people the next day, perhaps if the Biden FBI wanted to pin it on a Republican, they would have had an incredible number of suspects to do so because there were all these insurrectionists who ended up getting rightfully prosecuted for their actions on January 6th. But no, no, no, no. The Republicans are the victims constantly. Here is this interaction from this morning.

[Senate Committee Member (Interviewer)]

Director Patel, much like you, Deputy Director Dan Bongino, was a conspiracy theorist who built a lucrative career making inflammatory and unsubstantiated statements about the FBI that would be disqualifying in any administration that cared about nonpartisan law enforcement. For instance, Mr. Bongino called the placement of pipe bombs outside the DNC and RNC headquarters on January 6th, quote, an inside job and went on to say this was a setup. I have zero doubt. And whoever goes into the FBI, you better get an answer about why Director Patel, you and Deputy Director Bongino are now leading the FBI. What is the evidence to suggest the pipe bombs placed Outside of the DNC and RNC on January 6th were an inside job?

[Cash Patel]

I appreciate the opportunity to discuss Director Bongino's mine record. So many on this committee and the media jettison our 31 years of public service.

[Senate Committee Member (Interviewer)]

Can you answer the question, sir?

[Cash Patel]

I'm answering the question. You're questioning the integrity of the Deputy Director of the FBI in mind. And I'm going to answer the question. The pipe bomb investigation is ongoing and I'm not going to discuss details of the pipe bomb investigation. Mr. Bongino was a Secret Service agent for 15 years, a police officer for five. I served this country in multiple administrations for 16 years.

[Matt Lech]

Let's say like we all know the reputation our police departments have. Also look at this Secret Service. That's not necessarily a sign of a good person that they worked on the Secret Service.

[Emma Vigeland]

I like his defense mechanism here is to. First he gets indignant. Does he do the appeal to authority.

[Michael Brooks]

How dare you.

[Emma Vigeland]

Or the indignant all at once?

[Matt Lech]

How dare you. The like actually a senator, right.

[Emma Vigeland]

I'm a podcast. Integrity. Yeah.

[Matt Lech]

Well, yeah. Who would come to the Senate's job?

[Emma Vigeland]

Who is now. Well, they confirmed him. But the reality is is that this guy, literally, he was appointed by Donald Trump in part one because he said, I'm going to go after your enemies, which he's, he's making good on. But two, because he had this popular support behind him because he was like, I'm going to reveal everything in the Epstein files. And now he's arguably the most complicit person behind Pam Bondi and Donald Trump.

[Cash Patel]

In its cover up tales of the pipe bomb investigation. Mr. Bongino was a Secret Service agent for 15 years, a police officer for five. I served this country in multiple administrations for 16 years. We were also private citizens. And we are now back in government service. And what we have the ability to do is set aside our personal beliefs to deliver the mission of justice for this country. And we're doing it day in and day out. Disgusting that everyone and anyone would jettison our 31 years of combined experience that is now at the helm of the FBI delivering historic results at historic speeds for the American people.

[Will Sommer]

I don't think so.

[Matt Lech]

31 years is not that much for 2 people combined. I have 10 years experience. Majority of privacy.

[Michael Brooks]

Right.

[Matt Lech]

How dare you question my experience.

[Emma Vigeland]

Is that the end of it? Oh, dang. When we were listening. Oh, just a little bit longer. A little bit longer.

[Cash Patel]

That is now at the helm of the FBI delivering historic results at historic speeds for the American people.

[Senate Committee Member (Interviewer)]

So you have no evidence?

[Cash Patel]

I got a lot of evidence and I'll give it to you when I can.

[Senate Committee Member (Interviewer)]

Yeah, looking forward to it.

[Emma Vigeland]

Yeah, that's the part I wanted. Oh, I have a lot of evidence. You know how Cash Patel over this past five days or so has really made his a reputation, cultivated the reputation of holding evidence close to the vest, you know, like live tweeting when they have a subject in custody. Subject. I was now told that subject is also a term that they could use, not suspect. Okay, so fair enough. It was maybe was the right term, but tweeted it out and then two hours later was like, just kidding. We had to. It's not the Guy that killed Charlie Kirk, we got to release him.

[Matt Lech]

That was a Tim Robinson style answer.

[Emma Vigeland]

To that question 100%.

[Matt Lech]

How dare you question my seven years of doing the copy machine.

[Emma Vigeland]

Right, right. Why don't you inherently trust me, Cash Patel? Don't I look trustworthy? The guy has been revealing just all of the evidence that they're collecting. Like, I really hope that if this Tyler Robinson guy is the man that was behind the killing of Charlie Kirk, that they are able to adequately prosecute him. But they are giving the defense attorney, whoever takes this case an infinite amount of material to question the government. Like the fact that he's coming out and going on Fox News with all these theories and revealing evidence and then having to take it back. How it's going to be incredibly easy for the defense attorney to paint the prosecution and the government here as both compromise and incompetent. And Patel is making that quite clear. I mean, while we're here, just let's play this one part. This was from two days ago on Fox News. I couldn't believe my ears when I heard this answer. Sorry, number nine. Yeah, the one you have right here. This is great.

[Michael Brooks]

Couple other things. I have two quick questions. One, is it true the what the governor said yesterday that he had a written note that you're looking into now prior to the assassination, you looked, did he have a note? And the other one question is the person that was texting with him about I have a shot and taking out Charlie Kirk, can that person be charged?

[Cash Patel]

So I'll take those in reverse. The charging decisions are up to our great partners at the Department of Justice and the attorney General, who have been wonderful providing resources during this entire process. And we'll let them speak to any charging decisions. But we, the FBI, are investigating. As I said, our investigation is ongoing. We're interviewing dozens and dozens of suspects, subjects, witnesses and the like, and continuing to examine forensic information, including cell phone data and DNA analysis. And once we make those findings handed over to our partners, as we're doing in real time, they'll make those decisions. And I'm sorry, Brian, I forgot your.

[Michael Brooks]

Other written note was. Did he write a written note before. Before the assassination attempt? That's what the governor said yesterday. And what did that say, if you could.

[Cash Patel]

What I'm able to say, I'm sorry. So what I was. What I'm able to say is I addressed it partially earlier. Is that the written note. We believe what did exist and we have evidence to show what was in that note, which is. And I'm Going to summarize, basically saying the suspect wrote a note saying, I have the opportunity to take out Charlie Kirk and I'm going to take it. That note was written before the shooting. Evidence of existence, we now have learned existed before the shooting was in the location in the suspect and partner's home. But we have since learned that the note, even though it has been destroyed, we have found for forensic evidence of the note and we have confirmed what that note says because of our aggressive interview posture at the FBI.

[Will Sommer]

Remember, it gets sucked in.

[Emma Vigeland]

The manifesto just gets sucked in. So it's gone. We just have to trust their forensic team, led by Cash Patel, the Q and on podcaster, to accurately replicate the manifesto where the shooter said what they were, their motivations allegedly in killing Charlie Kirk. We're supposed to trust that this guy is gonna. And his forensic team, they'll. They'll do a SparkNotes version.

[Matt Lech]

Yeah, they remembered it. One of the guys, he's got a photographing memory. Just trust him.

[Emma Vigeland]

Right? I mean, can't you. Dan. Dan Bongino and Kash Patel are on this. Kash Patel can just remember everything by the sheer size of his eyes.

[Matt Lech]

Evidence of the note was location that scanning it.

[Jose Luis Granados]

What's not to trust here?

[Matt Lech]

That was a great sentence. Like the evidence of the existence of the prior existence of the note existed in the location that we looked at, but doesn't exist anymore. But our guys are on it like, okay. No further questions, your honor.

[Emma Vigeland]

The defense attorney. Gotta say, I would imagine that there are many defense attorneys that are looking for a high profile case like this with such incompetent folks in the government on the other side. In a moment, we'll be speaking to Will Sommer. But first, a word from some of our sponsors. Delete me. Delete Me is a product that I started using before I even joined the Majority Report. Basically as soon as I started doing this kind of semi publicly, and it was recommended to me by multiple people in our industry because it is a quick, easy and safe way to remove your personal data online. At a time where surveillance and data breaches are common enough to make everybody vulnerable, Deleteme makes it easier than ever to make sure that people do not find personal information about you online. With your address, phone number, family members, names hanging out there on the Internet, it can have actual consequences in the real world and it makes everybody vulnerable. More and more online, partisans and nefarious actors will find this data and use it to target political rivals, civil servants, and even outspoken citizens posting their opinions online. Given what we just talked about. Delete Me helps you protect your personal privacy or the privacy of your business from doxing attacks before sensitive information can be exploited. The New York Times wirecutter has named Deleteme their top pick for data removal services. Thanks to Delete Me for sponsoring the Majority report and Delete Me. I don't know what I would do without it. Seriously. It's really, I think, prevented some, some harassment towards me that, you know, I won't go into detail about it, but you see what they catch. You see the information that is not out there, that could have been leaked, etc. And, and it gives you a detailed report. And I just, I think it's important, especially in these times, as they mentioned, to make sure that you are protected online, take control of your data and keep your private life private by signing up for Deleteme now at a special discount for our listeners. Get 20% off your DeleteMe plan when you go to JoinDeleteMe.com Majority and use promo code Majority at checkout. The only way to get 20% off is to go to JoinDeleteMe.com Majority and enter code Majority at checkout. That's JoinDeleteMe.com Majority code Majority link below in the video description and episode description and at Majority FM. Get 20% off your delete Me plan when you go to join delete me.com majority and use promo code Majority at checkout. And lastly, let's face it, people, especially men, will life hack everything except one. Toilet paper consumption using a tushy bidet means that you will leave the bathroom so much cleaner than when you walked in. Let's get into it. Sam is not here to give his famed hello. Tushy bidet ad reads or tushy ad reads I apologize, but he is quite a fan and I don't do that kind of thing, obviously because I'm a girl. But I have heard from men that that experience is lovely, especially when you have this kind of attachment. Here in the United States, where we're just behind the rest of the world. You go to Europe, they have them installed there in hotel rooms and restaurants. Here in the United States, we've got this crappy toilet paper, but unless you have a tushy bidet, Tushy is the everyday luxury bidet that instantly transforms your bathroom habits and bottom health for life. Tushy's elevated bidet collection nurtures your bottom with instant warm water that never runs cold, a soothing heated seat, and UV sterilization for next level hygiene.

[Senate Committee Member (Interviewer)]

Whoa.

[Emma Vigeland]

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[Will Sommer]

Hey, thanks for having me.

[Emma Vigeland]

Of course. So you have been across some of the right wing reaction to obviously the killing of Charlie Kirk over on False Flag. You know, I, we were saying this briefly in the break. I hesitate to talk about splits in the Republican base sometimes because they're much better at kind of, you know, putting those things aside and coming behind their dear leader, Donald Trump. But it appears like at least really with like the young online right wing space, the reaction to the killing of Charlie Kirk has cause some rancor between, you know, these media personalities that feels like it's building off of like existing fissures really around the issue of Israel.

[Will Sommer]

Yeah, that's right. I mean I think fundamentally here there's kind of a frustration from a lot of these figures that the shooter, excuse me, the suspect has not been like, I don't know, a member of dsa. You know, it's not like really visibly and certainly is not, is not trans himself. Like they really wanted like a like a blue hair SJW type and then it's a lot more muddled I think there's a lot of questions remaining. And so instead they sort of seem to be turning to a lot of conspiracy theories. And as you said, I mean, Israel is kind of like the main fault line, particularly for, for young, young Trump supporters or youngish. And so as a result, I think this idea that Israel killed him or that there are a lot of sort of unanswered questions about what happened has really been proliferating.

[Emma Vigeland]

And who are the main purveyors of this, because Candace Owens is the obvious answer. But we have figures like Tucker Carlson who have been much more critical of Israel from the right than the more traditional party, I guess, influencers, although it's not necessarily taking a ton of a toll, at least in polling as of last month. In regards to the Republican base, it's certainly not like they're not as pro Israel as they were, say two years ago. But overwhelmingly the cohort of voters, you know, Democrats, Independents and Republicans, the Republican base is the one that's most supportive of Israel by like 50 or 40 points.

[Will Sommer]

Yeah, I mean, I think fundamentally what's happening here is you have these sort of more Israel critical voices. And I mean, in Candace Owens case, like sort of wildly anti Semitic right as well. And so, you know, in the right wing media. And so Tucker and Candace, I think would be sort of the leading avatars of that. And they are realizing, I think, that Charlie Kirk's memory is going to be something really valuable going forward to sort of a plethora of right wing causes and what that means. And so, for example, so Tucker was on the sort of J.D. vance hosted Charlie Kirk show. And he said, you know, essentially I'm sick of Benjamin Netanyahu talking about Charlie Kirk in Israel and saying, oh, he was such a great supporter of Israel. And then Candace Owens, who is sort of setting herself as sort of a bizarro heir to Charlie Kirk because she's not going to be allowed to take over Turning Point usa stuff like that. But she's trying to sort of claim that mantle anyway. And so she put out a video basically saying that Charlie Kirk had had this, a lot of tension with pro Israel donors, that Bill Ackman, the billionaire, had confronted him over it. And she's not saying explicitly this is why he was killed, but it's sort of the, it sort of leads you to believe that there's sort of an insinuation there that, you know, in the days up, up ahead of his death, there were these threats made to him.

[Emma Vigeland]

Well, I would not be shocked if here it is. Here's your. Your. Your tweet response to this. Billionaire Bill Ackman says Candace Owens has slandered him with her claims this afternoon about tensions between Ackman and Charlie Kirk over Israel in the days leading up to Kirk's assassination. She did have a response where I think, you know, she made a variety of different accusations, including an $150 million campaign that she says was going to be directed at Tucker Carlson for his critique of Israel. So, you know, I don't believe any of these people, but I'm rooting for the fight.

[Will Sommer]

Well, that's often the position I find myself in. Watching the fight. Yeah. I mean, I think it's. It's tricky with Candace Owens because on one hand she says things are totally nuts. Like, you know, she's claimed that Brigitte Macron is not only trans, but is part of sort of a medieval cult that has traveled across Europe undermining the underpinnings of Western civilization.

[Emma Vigeland]

Sorry. Try not to laugh. Okay, Go on. Yeah, but at the same time, roaming across Europe anyway.

[Will Sommer]

Exactly. And so.

[Emma Vigeland]

But.

[Will Sommer]

But we have to, like, often, sometimes, like. Like a figure like Laura Loomer. It's sort of. She can say things that are sort of, like, revealing about the internal dynamics of the right and things that prove to be cor. So even before Charlie Kirk was shot, it was clear that there was some drama between him and some donors and some people on the right because he had this kind of gatekeeper role. And so if you were invited to speak at Turning Point usa, much more so than CPAC these days, which is sort of irrelevant. It meant, like, you were okay, this is within Trumpism. You are a sanctioned figure. And as Tucker Carlson has become more critical of Israel and said sort of things about, I would apologize to the family of Osama bin Laden for the US Killing him, or, you know, offer my condolences, people have been kind of paying, panicking about the idea that he was going to be allowed to speak at a Turning Point convention, I believe in December. And so there was pressure on Charlie to block that. And now what Candace is saying is that this. That basically Bill Ackman had stepped up in a bigger way and said, you know, we're going to have this event in the Hamptons. Which, you know, of course, that gets into a whole other thing about, like, how much money is flowing into this world. I mean, I know you guys at the Majority Reporter always having your Hamptons retreats.

[Emma Vigeland]

Obviously Soros funded, too.

[Will Sommer]

And basically she claims it was like 100 influencers were gathered there. And it was clearly in her saying, you know, she's saying this was kind of the get in line, here's the line on Israel talking points. And basically that Ackman confronted Charlie and yelled at him. You know, he's denied. Ackman has denied that. And Turning Point USA and a bunch of kind of figures around it have come out to say that's not true. But this event did happen, but it was sort of on friendlier terms, so it's hard to know. But. But I do think it offers a glimpse into sort of the pressures and again, the money that that is behind Turning Point usa.

[Emma Vigeland]

Well, I would not be shocked if that meeting did happen. And it is as is characterized, given what we know about Benjamin Netanyahu. Actually, you know, there has been reporting that he met with Dave Rubin and Tim Pool earlier this year. His son is a major fan of Tim Pool. And they are definitely concerned about the cratering support for Israel given the fact that just this morning the UN said they are committing genocide in Gaza. It is completely based, it's undeniable at this point. And if you're a young person online and you're consuming more of those shows like Candace or Tucker versus, say, Fox News, you're going to be much more abreast of that fact and you're going to see images of these children being slaughtered. And what Tucker and Candice have been doing is presenting an alternative narrative to the more humanist vision on the right. We've seen spoken about this on the show before, but like, when our show talks about how we believe in a democratic Israel with Palestinians and Israelis having equal rights, what are they talking about? Oh, it's Israelis discriminating against Christian Palestinians or it's Jews in America subverting our democracy because they support Israel. It's always pitting different groups against one another. And it feels like the influencers you're talking about are seizing on that opportunity in ways that I think we should be very concerned about because this is just what I think the left has spoken about where when you conflate Zionism and Judaism, this is the eventual reality and they are the outgrowth of that.

[Will Sommer]

That's a great point, Emma. I mean, I do think that they are seizing on this. And certainly, you know, someone like Nick Fuentes, who's even further right and more. More anti Semitic is. Is they're seizing on this to say, you know, look what the Jews are up to in Israel. I mean, it's not like these people are such bleeding hearts for Palestinian children. But they're saying, you know, they're anti Christian. Here's a video of, you know, Jews in Israel, like spitting on a visiting Christian tour group. And then they're saying, now look, if they have so much power there and look how they use it. And then let's look at the United States where we're going to say they control the media, they control everything here. You know, like, for example, they become really focused on like the idea of American politicians visiting the, the Western Wall, the idea that this is like an act of humilia, of submission. So I mean, it really is like they're using it to, to grow anti Semitism and I think criticism of Jews in the United States and it's very concerning. But, but I, I think you're right also that Netanyahu is clearly like very keyed into American influencer culture. Right wing influencers. I mean, at the point where you're meeting with Tim Pool, I mean that's like a couple tiers down on the list. You know, I mean it's, it's, it's not a Fox News host. And so, so that's a big deal. And so the, I would not be surprised if both the Israeli government and, and supporters like Bill Ackman were really concerned about the prospect that someone like Charlie Kirk would even become neutral on Israel that would start saying, you know, voicing a few more criticisms. And in that way, you know, you can, you can see why, why they would be mad about that.

[Emma Vigeland]

Right. And then, but it's the causal connection being drawn by the right that is the problem here. And I find it interesting that that's where they want or some folks want to go. I mean, you have people immediately say on the right, the more traditional Republicans, even like Bill, Ben Shapiro went on Bill Maher show and said this shooter was of the left and Bill Marvel, people pushed back on him, saying, you don't know that, Ben, but that's the line from the Republican Party right now, without evidence, claiming that this shooter was ideologically left. And is that split like you know, pronounced among these right wing kind of commentators as well? Because you mentioned Fuentes. Where does he fit into all of this? Because there was speculation that he might have been a groper. We don't have enough information to really know what his ideology was at all. But Fuentes seems to kind of be a little bit in the background here. But is a specter over the whole debate?

[Will Sommer]

Yeah, I mean, I think Fuentes is going for, you know, the past few months or few weeks has been going for kind of like almost like a more respectable approach. Like, he's been really kind of dismissing. He's kind of having his like, sister soldier moment to the right. I mean, he's saying, like, you know, you guys are crazy for believing these conspiracy theories. And in this case, he's saying, I'm not seeing evidence that Israel was behind it. So there's kind of some triangulation going on here. But, you know, I think you hit on something broader, which is that you would think, you know, given the, that the, the right would be really keyed up for this, for focusing on the shooter. But it seems like there's maybe not enough in the suspect's background to focus on yet. And, you know, as you said, they're making all these claims about the left, but we haven't seen, you know, with the exception of George Soros, we haven't really seen like a proper noun. I mean, Cash Patel was just having his hearing people. They're saying, oh, we're going to have to go after these leftist networks. They're not saying anything. I mean, I think a good heuristic here would be, you know, with the Epstein files, where the right would always say if there was something between Donald Trump and Epstein, Biden would have leaked it. And so we can just assume there's nothing. Well, I think in this case, I think if there was really a smoking gun or, you know, a real proof here that this, the suspect was really sort of liberally focused in a way that they could capitalize on, we would have seen it already.

[Emma Vigeland]

I think that's right. And I, we were just covering this morning just like how Patel is approaching this investigation. It's just a gift to the defense. I mean, I, I've never seen such a nakedly political and unprofessional investigation like this. And the rush to propagandize it feels very desperate to me in a way that I think, you know, broadly, when we're talking about the different theories on the right, what has been the feeling about the free speech crackdown that is being promised by Trump, by Pam Bondi, by the widow of Charlie Kirk's wife, who is saying widow of Charlie Kirk saying vengeance, vengeance, vengeance all over the place. They have no idea what's coming. To me, it feels very defensive but also quite troubling because you have the vice president and the President saying they're going to go after leftists groups and media organizations, which we would fall in there. Well, so something to monitor.

[Will Sommer]

I mean, going back to her, her, her speech after the assassination I mean, it was notable to me that she said they, you know, to the people who are behind this, I mean, there's really no evidence anyone at this point, but besides, the suspect could have been behind it. You know, you're right. The way the investigation is being handled is sort of like a way to court right wing media has been very bizarre. You know, it didn't get a lot of attention. But Dan Bongino went on Megyn Kelly yesterday and it's really bizarre. I mean, you can get this sense that sort of his podcaster instincts are winning out over his Deputy Director of the FBI instincts, because she'll say things like, well, can you just confirm the suspect's roommate's name for us? And he goes, okay, you know, I guess I'll do it.

[Emma Vigeland]

Yeah.

[Will Sommer]

Which, in what situation would an FBI official, you know, you have the roommate, supposedly was not involved, is cooperating, is just, yeah, I'll put the ball, put the name out. Since, you know, everyone is talking about it. You know, it's really strange and, and sort of talking about the conditions of the suspect's jail. But getting back to the free speech thing you mentioned, it's very strange. I mean, obviously Pam Bondi has been facing a lot of backlash today for saying, you know, we're going to have to crack down on hate speech. But more broadly, I mean, the right seems very comfortable with a lot of the way the rest of this has been phrased about. We're going to go after these networks that people who are calling us Nazis, we're gonna go after them. I mean, things that are clearly illegal and then, you know, also, you know, things that would otherwise be illegal, like, you know, the administration's trial balloon about banning trans people from having guns. You know, I think Pambandi's mistake was phrasing it in sort of a liberal coded way about hate speech. I saw one guy who's kind of a maha figure say, you know, we don't want hate speech crackdowns, we want purges, we want roundups. So it's not like these people are really that concerned about this kind of incipient fascism. I think that it's only because they've been taught for so long to be concerned about hate speech crackdowns that this is what set them off.

[Emma Vigeland]

Yeah. Do we have that actually number eight here? It might be a good idea to the Pam Bondi on. Or maybe it's. I'm sorry, what's the number? The one with Katie Miller. Is this the right one? Yeah, yeah, yeah. This was The. Sorry, guys, I'm trying to find this number 11. Okay, yeah, let's do 11 here. So you referenced this. Will wanted to just play this for the audience. This is Pam Bonney, the Attorney General of the United States, on Katie Miller's podcast. For those that do not know, Katie Miller is the wife of Stephen Miller, who there was an article in the Rolling Stone over the weekend that basically shows he's functioning as the president. Stephen Miller, Trump is so lazy and is outsourcing essentially everything to him. So they have this podcast that no one watches and I look at the views. No one's watching this, but it's all over the news, Right? It's just there as a.

[Matt Lech]

For them to clip.

[Emma Vigeland]

Oh, yeah, exactly. It's just a propaganda outfit. It's not like Katie Miller has great charisma, as you'll.

[Matt Lech]

You're about to see only 2,000 views in a day.

[Emma Vigeland]

Exactly. With the Attorney General on this, that's.

[Will Sommer]

Like the highest profile interview she's done.

[Emma Vigeland]

Yeah, exactly. This was the headline coming out of this because as you mentioned, Will, she made these comments about hate speech that she had to walk back this morning.

[Derek Davison]

Especially with kids, it's a lot of.

[Emma Vigeland]

Work to show up to a college campus. Right.

[Derek Davison]

For so long, colleges allowed when a conservative would go on campus.

[Emma Vigeland]

Right.

[Derek Davison]

They go with all this police and security. These universities are complicit in allowing conservatives to be harassed on campus. And what happens when you allow a university to harass conservatives and don't expel.

[Emma Vigeland]

Or don't take an action is what happened last week.

[Derek Davison]

It is. And on a broader level, the anti Semitism. What's been happening at college campuses around this country is disgusting. It's despicable. And we've been fighting that. We've been fighting these universities left and right, and we're not going to stop.

[Michael Brooks]

Stop.

[Derek Davison]

There's free speech and then there's hate speech. And there is no place, especially now, especially after what happened to Charlie, in our society. Do you see more law enforcement going.

[Emma Vigeland]

After these groups who are using hate speech and putting cuffs on people? So we show them that some action is better than no action.

[Derek Davison]

We will absolutely target you, go after you if you. You are targeting anyone with hate speech, anything. And that's across the aisle. I mean, look what happened. Think about Josh Shapiro. What happened to Governor Shapiro. I talked to Josh multiple times. Democrat, Governor, Jewish. They firebombed his house.

[Emma Vigeland]

All right, all right, we got it. I just want, first of all, the pandering there to Katie Miller, who is a Zionist Jew herself, as well as her husband Stephen, seems pretty clear there. I don't. And the way to make it bipartisan by bringing in Josh Shapiro. Oh, now you're concerned about violence against Democrats when they can be used as a propaganda outfit. Because they know right now, of course, the pro Palestine movement is centered, at least in terms of activist groups. It's on the left. You might have some, like, anti Semitic, anti Israel voices on the right, but they're not really in the organizing movement. So this is a way just to further go after the left, bringing that in there. But she's lying. Hate speech. You cannot. This has been delineated over and over again in the Supreme Court. I think Oliver Wendell Holmes had, it basically said this in the 1920s, something like that, where hate speech, it's protected until it crosses a specific line. But this was her statement walking it back today, because as you mentioned, Will, this is an issue constitutionally. Hate speech that crosses the line into threats of violence is not protected by the First Amendment. She says it's a crime. Well, that's not what you said there.

[Matt Lech]

That's called making a threat.

[Emma Vigeland]

Yeah. Hate speech is not a concept that exists in First Amendment kind of case law and jurisprudence. And this has already been discussed. We can take that down, laid out in our law that, yeah, incitement and harassment and that kind of thing, that's illegal. But hate speech actually is protected.

[Jose Luis Granados]

Right.

[Will Sommer]

I mean, you can see she's walking it back there. I mean, there was a huge explosion from the right. People were saying, you know, particularly, I thought it was interesting that Turning Point USA people were saying, you know, she should resign, be fired. So they don't like the hate speech enough. And I would say they also didn't like when she said that, that if you run an office Max or something and you refuse to. To print a Charlie Kirk memorial sign that the Justice Department will come after you, which is very reminiscent of baking the cake for the gay wedding from their point of view. So, you know, on the other hand, you know, there's been a lot of backlash and she's backtracked. But Trump backed her up today. I mean, in a gaggle. He said, I believe, to Jonathan Karl from abc, he was asked, you know, what do you think about Pam Bondi saying she'll go after people? And he says, well, maybe she'll come after you, Jonathan Karl, if you keep it up.

[Emma Vigeland]

Because you're a hater, too. You do hate speech. You hate on me. That's what they mean by hate speech. They mean Criticizing conservatives. Trump said it the other day, you call us Nazis. That's hate speech. Is it? Or is it an accurate portrayal of your frickin ideology?

[Will Sommer]

Yeah, I mean it's getting very sinister and you know, like I said, I mean I, it seems like the White House is sticking with her. I thought it was notable that Laura Loomer, who is in some ways sort of a proxy for the White House as well, I mean she hates Pam Bondi's gut and she was out today saying, well, I think Pam Bondi made some good points. So I think it's clear the talking points went out. There was this initial kind of complaining from the right wing influencers, but now I think they've been been reined in and maybe they're going to run with this hate speech thing.

[Emma Vigeland]

So. Yeah. Lastly then Will, where do you see that going? Even when we have some of the more high profile conservative, I guess online podcast influencer space being a little bit queasy about this explicit war on free speech? It seems like at least in the institutions of power they're going to have the backing of the Republican Party and clearly the White House for this. I mean, attack on the First Amendment over Charlie Kirk's killing.

[Will Sommer]

You know, it's difficult to know because they haven't, with the exception of George Soros, they haven't really said anyone or that they'll be pursuing. But I think it's notable, I mean JD Vance was going wild yesterday mad about this Nation article that was critical of Charlie Kirk's legacy and saying, you know, we got to go after the people who are funding this. I mean that's, that's obviously protected free speech. And so I think Cash Patel was talking at his hearing about pursuing the money. So it seems like a very Viktor Orban type thing of pursuing, you know, essentially the funders of liberal activism.

[Emma Vigeland]

Well, I mean they didn't Elon already do that with There are fewer. It's easier because it's just the entire right wing media apparatus is funded by billionaires. So it's a lot easier to find liberal groups to attack in that way. It's horrible. But really appreciate your time today. Will Sommer, I also want to say you have a great book we interviewed you for in the past. If people want to check out your work on QAnon Trust, the plan, the rise of QAnon and the conspiracy that Unhinged America. If you want like a text that gives you a sense of the intellectual undergirding of our FBI director and you know what he really studied before coming into power. And of course, check out the Bulwark and Will's work over there at False Flag, the newsletter as a part of the Bulwark. Will, thank you so much for your time today. Really appreciate it.

[Will Sommer]

Thanks for having me.

[Emma Vigeland]

Of course. All right, folks, quick break and when we come back, we will be talking about the attacks on the Venezuelan boats. Be right back. We are back and we are joined now by Jose Luis Granado, sea Mexican journalist, staff writer at Venezuela Analysis and presenter on Cimuros on Mexico's Canal Onse. Jose Luis, thanks so much for coming on the show today.

[Jose Luis Granados]

Thank you very much for inviting me.

[Emma Vigeland]

Of course. So yesterday Trump announced that his administration had bombed a second boat that they claim without evidence was carrying drugs from Venezuela. They killed three people this time. They killed, I think a dozen or 11 folks in the first attack on the boat, just the first boat. Just give us your reaction to this news and how this is a clear escalation by the administration to try to goad Venezuela into some sort of response.

[Jose Luis Granados]

Absolutely. I think this is very much the intention. I think what we're seeing is the United States once again acting in a rogue fashion in the region in order to advance its interests. I think these attacks on these boats, even though they're in an international water, according to the US Government, clearly constitute a violation of international law and also a huge violation of the sovereignty of Venezuela because this is clearly aimed at them. What we're seeing is extrajudicial executions carried out by the Trump administration as part of a broader agenda that goes back to previous governments. We're talking Biden, Trump, Obama aimed at intimidating and ultimately trying to oust the government in Venezuela in order to cut away and damage their influence in the region. Because as much as Venezuela has suffered greatly under the US Led sanctions campaign, obviously we've seen the fallout of that with the migration crisis. Well, it still represents a threat to US Hegemony in the region, and that's why they acted the way that they are. But this is definitely an escalation. And I think that's the most worrisome is what's next. I mean, the first attack was worrisome, but the second one I think now we can say constitutes a pattern. And that pattern is forming US Policy in the region now, which is that they're willing to do anything up to and including violations of international law.

[Emma Vigeland]

Well, five US F35 stealth jets were dropped off in Puerto Rico on Saturday and this attack on the second boat happened on Monday. What are you Hearing about this show of force by the United States and I would argue belligerence, but like what they're also trying to indicate, really militarily and in addition to these attacks on the boats to the Venezuelan government.

[Jose Luis Granados]

Yeah, it definitely speaks to the links that they're clearly willing to go to. We also saw recently the decertification in the narco trafficking fight in neighboring Colombia. This, I think what we might be witnessing is the beginning of what we could call a strategic retreat by the United States into its traditional sphere of influence, obviously Western Europe, but even then we see them aligning differently. But certainly Latin America, I detest the term, but they have always viewed Latin America as their backyard. And I think given the rising influence of China, especially here in Latin America, there's only a handful of countries now whose number one trading partner is the United States. The rest of them, it's. It's China. I think what they're seeing is to try to retreat into this hemisphere where they feel like they can exert more influence by any means necessary. Right, we saw that with this administration. A bit of an abandonment of soft power in the region. You know, the defunding of USAID and the rest of it. Not that I'm a fan of this, of the work that USA did in the region, but it shows what their priorities are. It's to use physical force, military force, in order to send a message. And I think the message is also for all the region, not just Venezuela and Mexico in particular, I think as well.

[Emma Vigeland]

Well, I'd love for you to expand on that point about Mexico, because I hadn't considered that, but I just. It's funny that they're trying to present this as like a shift in US foreign policy. And I guess it is, but it's more, as you say, a return. Because while our interference in Latin America may have been in the form of coups and in the form of like the CIA doing these covert actions that were just as bloody, this is I guess just a open display where there's a lot of those things in the administration where it's like they take the things that left wing folks were critical of, like US Empire about or whatever, and they just own them and expand upon them. And it feels like open militarism with Venezuela is an admission of the policies that you described. The sanctions regime of previous administrations, the attempts to overthrow Maduro's government, like that was obvious to everybody. And so now they're just openly doing it.

[Jose Luis Granados]

That's exactly right. And I think it is a way a Sort of a reflection of the kind of prevailing authoritarianism that defines this administration in Washington right now of wanting to do things however they want and the consequences be damned. I mean, I really think we have to emphasize just how outlandish it is that they are attacking small vehicles, small vessels. Right. That apparently in the case of the first one, we now have information that there was actually two strikes to kill the survivors after the first one, and they were actually retreating. Even if we were to accept this notion that they're putting forward that this constitutes an imminent threat, which of course is not believable. But even if we were to accept it, you know, it's clearly an international crime. What they did to attack a boat that was retreating, that's fleeing, that isn't even a combatant. These are civilians. They may or may not. There actually is no evidence that there is any drug trafficking happening. It's quite suspicious. There was 11 people that might have actually been a human trafficking operation, given the amount of people that were there. And it's ludicrous because we saw Trump say, well, the proof is the bags of cocaine and fentanyl that were exploded all over the ocean. I mean, it's almost like they're laughing at us in our faces. Because to begin with, there's not a lot of cocaine that's trafficked in Venezuela. That has been a deliberate exaggeration as a means to manufacture consent. But also there is zero fentanyl that comes from Venezuela. Fentanyl's production is actually mostly concentrated to within the US Itself with the precursors or actually here in Mexico and then crossover. So they really are just kind of going beyond the pale in this regard. And I think we should mention. Right. Who are the actors? Yes, of course it's Trump, but who's really calling the shots? I think when it comes to this, it's Marco Rubio. Marco Rubio is relishing this opportunity as Secretary of State to finally go after all of the people in this region that he has always focused on back when he was senator from Florida. All these left wing governments in the region that have been a thorn in the side of Washington. And he's clearly on a campaign to affect them all, even the more moderate governments like in Brazil. We saw Landau, his deputy Secretary of State, saying they're trying to rescue Brazilian democracy because they did the right thing and convicted a coup plotter in Yair Bolsonaro for his attempt to subvert constitutional order in Brazil. This is the United States government behavior in Latin America today.

[Emma Vigeland]

Can you talk a little bit more about Rubio, and I think that fits into the theme here of what we're talking about, this just being an escalation of previous policy as opposed to an entire departure from it. Rubio's history as a pro capitalist kind of descendant of Cuban exiles has colored his entire career in both. When he was a senator, I think he was on either armed services or I'm forgetting exactly what committee he was. But this was a central pillar of his career. And it sounds very much like Stephen Miller, but it may not be. I mean, this is also a way to kind of undercut Maduro and economies that close themselves off to US Capitalism. And using blunt force to do so is important.

[Jose Luis Granados]

Absolutely. And, you know, whenever Rubio comes up, I think it's important to mention that he often talks about being the child of Cuban exiles, but his parents actually fled the Batista regime, not the Castro regime, and so he's instrumentalized it because it's useful politically for him. Right, that's, that's, that's his intention here. But yes, he's very much the one who's the driving force right now behind this policy. He said it himself. It was one of those they said the quiet part out loud moments while in Mexico. He was here on, on a visit, official visit, and he says, well, this old strategy of simply interdiction, of capturing and arresting is not working, so we're just going to blow them up. You know, it's basically trying to intimidate all of the actors in the region through the threat of force. And I think the fact that we've now seen it twice, and not to mention as well, this one's actually, in some, in some ways somewhat more severe, was the detention of a fishing vessel that was in Venezuelan waters. Right. And so they seem to have no regard at all whatsoever for respect for sovereignty. And I think that's really important for the entire region to pay attention to. Marco Rubio is somebody who will not respect the sovereignty of countries. He may say so, you know, like he did when he was here in Mexico. But it's clear they don't actually believe any of these words. And so I think the region would be well poised to pay attention to this and respond collectively. You know, we've seen some attempts at a regional response. You know, we do have the Community of Latin American and Caribbean States, the alternative to the oas, called salac, but even there, there was not a unanimous statement, because there are some countries in the region who think that strategically their best option here is to align themselves with Marco Rubio and his disregard for sovereignty. But that's a very dangerous road to go on. I mean, ultimately, it could also could spell an attack on their own sovereignty. The US has often turned on its own allies as soon as they're inconvenient. And speaking of allies, it's quite interesting, right? The entire basis of all of their work right now is the alleged drug trafficking that's happening when their closest ally in South America is nobody in Ecuador. And that has become the key transit point for the distribution of cocaine throughout the world. It's happening in the ports with the complicity of the state, most likely, and that's their ally. So it's really hard to take them seriously. And really, we have to understand what this is. It's US Imperialism. It's the US Trying to exert its influence over counter hegemonic governments, be it Venezuela, Nicaragua, Cuba, but even other governments like Brazil or Mexico, where even if the slightest bit of resistance against Washington's agenda in the region, which is of course driven and interest of securing resources and cheap labor, is threatened by these governments.

[Emma Vigeland]

Can you expand a little bit more on what you were saying about attempts at solidarity and Mexico's role in it as well? Trump, on the campaign trail repeatedly threatened to invade and bomb Mexico, one of our closest allies. We share a major border with them. Also, in terms of trade relationships, Sheinbaum has not, like Trump, has not been able to bully her in the way that he has other leaders, in part due to her enormous popularity, but also because the United States is really dependent on Mexico. So how could this be sending a message to Mexico, where, from my estimation, Mexico has all the leverage over the United States right now?

[Jose Luis Granados]

It's absolutely true. Mexico has a lot of leverage. And Scheinbaum has been really crafty in using that leverage to be able to negotiate with Trump, given how difficult it can be to negotiate with him. You know, he even reluctantly admits that he was a fan of her predecessor, Lopez Obrador, and that she's cut from the same cloth, but even then lauding her with a lot of positive language. But it's precisely that. It's because of the relationship. The US can't in this moment afford to have Mexico as its enemy. Trump won government. Trump's previous administration made a lot of moves that made it so actually, China stopped being the number one trading partner of the United States, and it became Mexico. A lot of that manufacturing came here. So today the number one trading partner of the United States is Mexico, and that does give Mexico a lot of Leverage. Right. But in the terms of why this is also a message for Mexico, of course, this first attack happened on the day that Marco Rubio was meant to have this visit here inside of Mexico with the president. And so a lot of analysts suspected that the timing was no coincidence. And of course, because there are hawks in the Trump government who are interested in, precisely, as you said, to follow through on this Trump threat during his campaign, to invade or to bomb, there are a number of actors inside of his government who are convinced that that's the solution. In the same way that there are people who are convinced that the solution is to bomb boats in the Caribbean, that this is the only way to deal with the narco trafficking issue. Of course, that's a red line for the Mexican government. Any violation of the Mexican sovereignty would basically spell the end of the US Relationship with Mexico. I mean, it is the line that cannot be crossed. And if it is crossed, I mean, you can say goodbye to all cooperation on the border, on migration, around trade. It would be devastating. And that, of course, would have an impact. Right. I think things are really starting to catch up now in terms of the error of Trump's ways when it comes to managing the US Economy. And blowing up the relationship with your number one trading partner would likely spell a sharp increase in prices that would be reflected very, very quickly. I don't think that wholesalers or supermarkets or the rest of it could actually absorb those costs. And so they're playing with fire and I think they're trying to say, well, look, we're willing to do it, so you better play nice with us and, you know, cooperate with us. And there has been extensive cooperation and they've established this high level bilateral meaning where they'll be able to update on a regular basis. I think that's really important because I do think that a lot of the people who want to bomb Mexico are not aware of all of the cooperation that is actually happening and the really deliberate, determined effort that's happening here in Mexico from the government to maybe a degree that actually could be criticized with the mobilization of the National Guard and all of the rest of it, the containment of migrants at Mexico southern border. All of this is happening at the behest of the United States. And strategically here the Mexican government is trying to basically keep the monkey off their back, trying to keep the United States from demanding even more. But it is getting tricky. There was an article not too long ago where it talked about the discontent that is inside of the Mexican government, because it does seem like the US is asking the impossible. They want Mexico to solve the drug problem in the United States when there's only so much that Mexico can do. Really, the problem is on the other side, the demand side. It's not so much the supply. And hopefully the United States can rectify its behavior and treat this issue of addictions in the way that it should as a public health concern. Right. Of actually informing and working and rebuilding social cohesion, which I think plays a large role in the sort of, you know, turn and the addiction crisis that does exist in the United States. Right. There's nothing Mexico can do about that. What the United States is asking is the impossible. And I think really, it's important for them to realize that Mexico actually is doing a lot, but there are lines that cannot be crossed, which is, of course, if they. They decide to send troops or drones or bombing, all of that would be a disaster for the US Mexico relationship.

[Emma Vigeland]

Well, I mean, it occurs to me that it really is using. First of all, Venezuela has major oil reserves. We haven't touched on that at that point, but at this point. But it's using the tactics of militarism in the Middle east that was also motivated by oil. Shockingly, not wholly, but in many ways. Yes. And using the war on drugs framework that has been reserved for the Americas domestically against its own population here in the US but also, of course, the war on drugs and the militarism and how it ravaged Latin American countries. And then using our bombing, taking our bombing tactics from the Middle east and applying it here domestically so that we're ensuring some sort of, like, dominance over the region that I think you can also fit our immigration policy into where it's like, we want to exploit labor over there. And we're going to make sure that you. That that labor is exploited in your country and not. And yeah, in our country to a degree, but we'll extract and we'll deport all these folks back to Latin American countries and you will be subservient to us. And these are. This is the reality we're going to create. And we will punish anybody that does not accept that reality. That's where we're at at this point.

[Jose Luis Granados]

That's absolutely right. And it's, you know, it's kind of tragic. Right. It's a combination of two very failed wars. Right. The first, the war on terrorism and the war on drugs. And this combination, as if somehow that's going to miraculously produce a better result. But it is. It's the same logic that we saw applied, you know, in West Asia, the Middle east, of wanting to control resources through force. And in the case of Iraq, right up to including invasions. And so, you know, Venezuela has been very diligent in defending its sovereignty and its right to decide what happens with its resources. And that's the part that irks the United States the most because, you know, they're not able to engage in that value transfer that you were alluding to previously of basically super exploiting here in the south in order to bring all that value into the north and line the pockets of capitalists in the United States. And so if you were to ask me my opinion around the success of this, I think it's doomed to fail. Right. This kind of strategy didn't work in the war on terror and it didn't work the war on drugs. And somehow thinking that they're going to bring them together is going to actually attend to this problem? Of course not. And if anything, the increasingly worrisome domestic situation is going to make, I think, the United States even more erratically and bring some of those really terrible precedents into this region. You know, for example, I think about the assassination of General Soleimani from Iran, you know, that was clearly a US operation in that sense. And so we're seeing this happening here. And I do think that it's something to consider, for example, in the case of Venezuela with these threats, with this bravado, you know, this bellicose language. You know, I don't think the troops that they have mobilized near Venezuela are, are enough to invade. I don't think that that's what's on, on the table, to be honest. Right. It took 15, 000 troops to invade Panama. It'd be much more difficult to invade Venezuela. And so far it looks like they only have around 4,000. But they could go for a decapitation strike, you know, hitting key leadership, the Defense minister or even up to Maduro himself. Right. And it would be incredibly destabilizing. And I think, gosh, yeah, it would. It would have ripple effects in the region. It would be. It'd be terrible. And it would actually even, I think, cause some of their allies in the region to think twice about their relationship. But I don't think it's off the table. I mean, we're talking about a government that is acting in a qualitatively different, more aggressive manner. This is in a roguelike fashion of up to and including could be this kind of attack. Obviously, they're taking precautions. But I was just talking with my colleague, CI Ra Pascual, Martina from Venezuela Analysis. And she made a really good, important point that I wanted to bring here, which is that, you know, as much as Maduro and Padrino and Dozado Cabello, these key figures in Venezuela have to protect themselves. It's also important that the people see them right, because Venezuela's military doctrine, this anti imperialist doctrine, is about the union of the armed forces with the population. The population has to see their leadership out there. So there's only so much they can do. It's not like they can hide in a bunker all day because of this threat. And so there is this risk. But of course, perhaps speaking of the Venezuelan population, we've seen the response to these threats, seeing them sign up to join the Bolivarian militia. We've seen them doing training exercises. Their doctrine is very much like the armed forces. If there is an invasion, they will call on the millions of people who form a part of the militia to defend their country. And I think you very much would see that if anything, it would just provoke greater unity for a government that obviously is dealing with economic fallout as a result of U.S. sanctions.

[Emma Vigeland]

Well, not that I would expect the Trump administration to be aware of this kind of thing, but there is a deep and rich history and understanding in Latin America about the United States role in overturning democratically elected governments. And if we were to just. We did so and have done so many times under the like, with some level of plausible deniability at least, like that was the CIA's perspective on it. We're going to just openly assassinate people associated with Maduro, if that's on the table. Like, my concern is, is that I would imagine that Venezuela is starting to prepare and have some sort of training. Right. That we don't know how this administration can justify anything. They could say these are the narco terrorist training, when it's just clearly Venezuelan troops needing to ready themselves because of threats from the world's largest military right in their backyard. To flip the phrase.

[Jose Luis Granados]

Yeah, I mean, they would use any kind of justification. I think that's part of what we're seeing right now, to be honest. I think that's what we're, you know, what they're building for. They're literally trying to manufacture consent in this sense. And I bring it up because I saw this extraordinary image from an article from one Juan Ferreiro from the Wall Street Journal, which was this map of, you know, sort of the Caribbean region and all these arrows shooting out of Venezuela to try to give this impression that Venezuela is the center point of traffic in the region. It's not true whatsoever. The DEA says it, the UN says it. Right. All of this is trying to kind of lay the foundation. They want to see, for example, how much criticism are they actually going to receive domestically for these actions that they're taking. Fortunately, we are seeing some pushback from this or that. You know, representative saying that this is, this is questionable. Congress is the only one who's authorized to, for, for war resolutions. They should hold the government to account and ask for clarity around this, around these strikes, you know, and it's not believable that these imminent threats, these boats cannot make it from Venezuela all the way to Florida, for example. Right. And it's quite likely they were actually headed to a different Caribbean island. And so there, I think that we need to demand more and also the US Population should demand that of their representatives. Do you really want to walk into another military quagmire? Will you be bogged down and you'll be hated by this region, which appears to be all that the United States really has left in the world in terms of close relationships with, with, with regional leaders.

[Emma Vigeland]

Well, thank you so much for coming on today. Jose Luis Granado Sea. You can check out his work over at Venezuela Analysis and down in Mexico's Canal Onse. Forgive me for my poor pronunciation as always. Jose Luis, thanks so much for your time today.

[Jose Luis Granados]

Thank you so much. I'm glad to have this opportunity to talk about this with all of you.

[Emma Vigeland]

Absolutely. Thank you. With that, we are going to wrap up the free part of this program and head into the fun part of the program. This show relies on your support. Please, if you can become a member, join themjorityreport.com it really helps us stay afloat and, you know, keeps us maybe a little bit more independent.

[Matt Lech]

The Soros money is gonna, they're gonna go for Soros money now, so we need to, to step up.

[Emma Vigeland]

It was a little, right? It was a little. It's a little worrisome. The Trump administration wants to investigate our friends over the nation. So if you want to help us out, please do.

[Michael Brooks]

Came for my chorus money and they take my Soros money.

[Senate Committee Member (Interviewer)]

How am I supposed to pay my.

[Michael Brooks]

Rent, God damn it.

[Emma Vigeland]

Well, I mean, that's what happens when you're in that rent stabilized apartment for $7,000 a month that Andrew Cuomo says.

[Matt Lech]

You'Re keeping a homeless person could be staying in for. You know, they've just paid. They would just have to pay the $2,500 a month.

[Emma Vigeland]

Yeah. Anyway, join themjorityreport.com Matt, what's happening on Left Reckoning?

[Matt Lech]

Yeah, Left Reckoning. We have a huge show tonight, including a professor who is fired for. I mean, basically being on the Zoom call. Socialist Zoom conference down in Texas. This is unrelated to the Charlie Kirk firings. Also Tomonish John talking about these. Same topic we just talked to Jose Luis on and more tonight. Left reckoning. Patreon.com left reckoning. And also Brian Mirror on talking about Bolsonaro. So we got a full, full show tonight.

[Emma Vigeland]

All right, see you in the fun half.

[Michael Brooks]

Three months from now, six months from now, nine months from now. And I don't think it's gonna be the same as it looks like in six months from now. And I don't know if it's necessarily gonna be better six months from now than it is three months from now, but I think around 18 months out, we're gonna look back and go like, wow.

[Emma Vigeland]

What?

[Michael Brooks]

What is that going on? It's nuts. Wait a second. Hold on. Hold on for a sec. The majority report. Emma. Welcome to the the program.

[Emma Vigeland]

A fun half.

[Michael Brooks]

What is up, everyone? Fun hat. No m. You did it. Fun half.

[Emma Vigeland]

Let's go, Brandon.

[Jose Luis Granados]

Let's go, Brandon.

[Michael Brooks]

Fun hat. Bradley, you want to say hello?

[Will Sommer]

Sorry to disappoint everyone. I'm just a random guy.

[Michael Brooks]

It's all the boys today.

[Emma Vigeland]

Fundamentally false. No, I'm sorry.

[Michael Brooks]

Women's talking for a second.

[Emma Vigeland]

Let me finish. Where is this coming from? Dude?

[Cash Patel]

But.

[Michael Brooks]

Dude, you Want to smoke this? 7A.

[Emma Vigeland]

Yes.

[Michael Brooks]

Yes.

[Jose Luis Granados]

Is this me?

[Michael Brooks]

Is it me? It is you.

[Jose Luis Granados]

Is this me?

[Will Sommer]

Hello, this me?

[Michael Brooks]

I think it is you. Who is you. No sound. Every single freaking day. What's on your mind?

[Emma Vigeland]

Sports.

[Michael Brooks]

We can discuss free markets and we can discuss capitalism.

[Emma Vigeland]

I'm gonna go Skyline.

[Senate Committee Member (Interviewer)]

Cool.

[Michael Brooks]

Libertarians.

[Matt Lech]

They're so stupid. Though.

[Michael Brooks]

Common sense says of course.

[Emma Vigeland]

Gobbledygook.

[Michael Brooks]

We nailed him.

[Emma Vigeland]

So what's 79 plus 21 challenge?

[Cash Patel]

Man, I'm positively quivering.

[Michael Brooks]

I believe 96. I want to say 8, 5, 7, 2, 1, 0, 35, 501, 1 half.

[Matt Lech]

3, 8, 9, 11.

[Emma Vigeland]

For instance, 3, $400. $1900.

[Michael Brooks]

5, 4, $3 trillion. Sold. It's a zero sum game.

[Emma Vigeland]

Actually. You're making me think less.

[Michael Brooks]

But let me say this poop, you.

[Emma Vigeland]

Can call it satire. Sam goes satire on top of it all.

[Derek Davison]

My favorite part about you is just.

[Emma Vigeland]

Like every day, all day, like everybody, without a doubt.

[Michael Brooks]

Hey, buddy. We see you. All right, folks, folks, folks.

[Emma Vigeland]

It's just the week being weeded out. Obviously.

[Michael Brooks]

Yeah. Sun's out, guns out. I. I don't know.

[Emma Vigeland]

But you should know.

[Michael Brooks]

People just don't.

[Matt Lech]

Like to entertain ideas.

[Michael Brooks]

Anyway, I have a question. Who cares?

[Emma Vigeland]

Our chat is enabled, folks.

[Michael Brooks]

I love it.

[Emma Vigeland]

I do love that.

[Michael Brooks]

Gotta jump. Gotta be quick. I gotta jump.

[Emma Vigeland]

I'm losing it, bro.

[Michael Brooks]

Two o', clock, we're already late, and the guy's being a dick.

[Senate Committee Member (Interviewer)]

So screw him.

[Michael Brooks]

Sent to a gulag.

[Emma Vigeland]

Outrageous.

[Michael Brooks]

Like, what is wrong with you? Love you.

[Jose Luis Granados]

Bye.

[Michael Brooks]

Love you.

[Emma Vigeland]

Bye.

[Michael Brooks]

Bye.