3591 - Why Everything Suddenly Got Worse w/ Cory Doctorow

Summary

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Podcast Summary

Podcast: The Majority Report with Sam Seder
Episode: 3591 - Why Everything Suddenly Got Worse w/ Cory Doctorow
Date: September 29, 2025
Guest: Cory Doctorow, author of “(Inshittification) Why Everything Suddenly Got Worse and What to Do About It”

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Episode Overview

This episode features a wide-ranging interview with writer and activist Cory Doctorow, discussing his new book on the phenomenon he calls "inshittification" — a term describing how digital platforms and economic systems decay, rigging themselves increasingly against consumers and workers to maximize corporate profit. Sam Seder and the crew dive deep into why modern life, especially online, seems to be getting worse, exploring the structural, political, and regulatory roots of this decline. Doctorow argues that monopoly power, deregulation, and failed antitrust enforcement have created "shitagenic" conditions enabling platform decay, and offers insights into how meaningful change remains possible.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. What is “Inshittification”?

• Definition: A theory of how platforms and products, especially in big tech, decay over time—starting out good for users, then prioritizing business customers, and finally ending up exploitative to maximize profit.
• Doctorow: “You have platforms that are good to their end users, find a way to lock those users in, then make things better for their business customers, find a way to lock the business customers in, make things worse for them and then turn into a pile of shit. That's the inshittification thesis.” (23:52)

2. The Role of Policy & Regulation

• Platforms aren’t decaying by accident or “genius,” but because past safeguards (antitrust laws, regulations) have been deliberately gutted:
  • US antitrust enforcement essentially ceased in the late 20th century, allowing companies like Google to dominate by buying up all promising competitors.
  • “Congress created the shitagenic environment and then we got inshittification.” — Doctorow (29:53)
  • The 1998 Digital Millennium Copyright Act forbade consumers from modifying products/software, stifling competition and user control.

3. Exploding Myths About Tech

• It's not simply about “move fast and break things” or VC greed; even wildly profitable companies like Google made things worse for users simply because they could, and there was no regulatory restraint.
• “Google was the most profitable company in the history of the world and then they made things worse. And so it wasn't because of … overinvestment … It's because policymakers … took decisions” — Doctorow (26:32)

4. How Big Tech Captured the System

• Judges, regulators, and even workers lost power:
  • Antitrust education for judges was subverted by corporate-funded “Mann Seminars,” resulting in pro-monopoly precedent (31:53).
  • Labor lost leverage due to layoffs and a growing tech workforce, making it easier for management to push through anti-user changes.

5. The Global Fightback

• A “quietly miraculous” antitrust revival is happening, especially in Europe (Digital Markets Act), Canada, the UK, Australia, and China (40:17, 41:25).
  • Apple threatened, but couldn’t afford, to leave European markets over new regulation—showing real leverage.

6. The Coalition for Change

• The popular realization that “concentrated wealth is the source of so many of our problems” is giving rise to new political coalitions—spanning both the left and some segments of the populist right (43:31).
• “There is this ... inchoate understanding that anti monopoly is anti wealth concentration. ... Maybe like generations and playing a terrible board game in our living rooms have taught us what a monopoly is. At least.” — Doctorow (43:31)

7. Individual vs. Collective Action

• Changing personal habits—boycotting platforms, sorting recycling—won’t solve systemic monopoly power (46:53).
  • “I don't think you're going to shop hard enough to make monopolies go away ... It's not change. Change comes from ... political movements.” — Doctorow (46:53)
• Real progress depends on organization: Doctorow promotes the Electronic Frontier Foundation's Electronic Frontier Alliance as a vehicle for local action and coalition building (47:53).

8. International Potential & Hope

• The global nature of tech means successful regulation or law in one country can be exported, making collective action more feasible than in the age of industrial monopolists like Rockefeller (48:44).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Doctorow on Tech Decay:
  “We let the Internet turn into five giant websites filled with screenshots of text from the other four.” (28:00)

• On How Corporate Power Undermined Law:
  “Judges have to go for continuing education ... they funded this thing called the Mann Seminars ... 40% of the federal judiciary graduated from it. And it was just a session where you would learn about how antitrust was bad and monopolies were efficient.” (31:53)

• Doctorow’s Hopeful Note:
  “Something I think that's like quietly miraculous has happened since the late 2010s ... all over the world we’ve seen this surge of antitrust action, right?” (40:17)

• On Coalitions:
  “Political change is downstream of coalition formation ... there is this sense that concentrated wealth is the source of so many of our problems.” (43:31)

• On Action:
  “Change comes from ... political movements. It's a systemic problem. ... real progress depends on organization.” (46:53)

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Important Timestamps

• What is Inshittification? (23:11–25:49)
• Policy & Antitrust Failure (25:49–31:53)
• Judicial Capture: Mann Seminars (31:53–36:19)
• Obstacles to Reform (36:19–40:17)
• Global Antitrust Pushback (40:17–42:35)
• Coalition Building & Populism (43:31–46:11)
• Limits of Individual Action; Need for Movements (46:53–49:39)
• Where to Find the Book & EFA (49:39–51:04)

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Resources Mentioned

• Cory Doctorow’s new book: Inshittification: Why Everything Suddenly Got Worse and What to Do About It
• Electronic Frontier Foundation / Electronic Frontier Alliance: EFF.org
• Doctorow’s E-book and Audiobook store: craphound.com/shop
• Bookshop.org (for physical book purchases without supporting Amazon)

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Tone and Atmosphere

• Candid, analytical, and irreverent: The conversation is brisk but peppered with Doctorow’s wry humor (“They get up every morning and they go grab the giant lever yanked inshittification in the C suite.” – 31:53) and the hosts’ banter about current events and the absurdity of contemporary tech, politics, and policy.
• Hopeful despite challenges: Despite painting a bleak history of regulatory retreat, Doctorow emphasizes the possibility of mass movements and effective regulation, drawing optimism from developments abroad and burgeoning coalitions domestically.

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Takeaways for Listeners

• Our worsening digital and economic environment is not accidental or “inevitable.” It’s the product of deliberate policy, regulatory capture, and the unchecked growth of monopoly power.
• The solution lies not in tweaking individual behavior, but in collective action and political resurgence—locally and globally.
• There is proof that concerted public pressure, especially at the regulatory level, can force even the largest companies to capitulate—and the time is ripe for coalition-building and activism.

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Transcript

[Sam Seder]

Hey, this is a message for those of you who like the Majority Report. If you like what we do around here. Thoughtful, progressive analysis, sometimes funny. We also do some other stuff besides that. You're going to love the print or the digital version of Current affairs magazine. Current affairs combines intelligent commentary, biting political satire and actually gorgeous artwork to produce one of the country's most elegant and informative magazines. And it's all ad free. Current affairs is a fantastic compliment to the Majority Report. We've had Nathan Robinson on many times on this program. The reporting they do over there, the analysis, honestly, great stuff. They got a story on the top of their page now about those comedians who are going to Riyadh to play for the Saudi prince. Marin had actually something funny to say about that. But nevertheless, check out the magazine. They've got great stories that you may have missed in other places. Use the Code Majority report. You get 30% off any subscription of your choice for the year. Go to current affairs.org subscribe enter the code majority report at checkout. Offer expires October 31st. And now time for this show, the Majority Report with Sam Cedar. It is Monday, September 29, 2025. My name is Sam Seder. This is the five time award winning Majority Report. We are broadcasting live steps from the industrially ravaged Gowanus Canal in the heartland of America, downtown Brooklyn, usa. On the program today, Cory Doctorow, author of why Everything Suddenly Got Worse and what to Do About It. Also on the program, Trump meets with Schumer as the shutdown looms. Meanwhile, Supreme Court gives Trump to unilaterally rescind congressionally Congressional appropriations this via foreign aid. But why even sign a budget if he can just rescind it? Trump to meet Netanyahu as Trump organization inks a new $1 billion deal in Jeddah, Saudi Arabia.

[Matt Binder]

That's a coincidence.

[Sam Seder]

Kash Patel corrects Trump says the FBI agents were called to the Capitol for crowd control after the riots started. Trump sends 200 National Guard to Portland, Oregon. No one knows why at I mean they know why this as ice a march in Chicago. Trump to speak at the hegseth can see convened military loyalty oath meeting tomorrow. Senator Thune calls for US farmers to be bailed out as the administration decides to bail out Argentina. Trump's asked SCOTUS for birthright citizenship ban and Eric Adams drops out of the New York mayoral race. Unclear which real estate developer he'll end up being hired by. Finally, at least four killed in an attack on a Mormon church in in Michigan by a vet who thought Mormons to be the Antichrist. All this and more on today's Majority Report. Welcome, ladies and gentlemen. Thanks so much for joining us.

[Matt Binder]

Fun Day Monday.

[Sam Seder]

Fun Day Monday.

[Matt Binder]

That's what we call it here.

[Sam Seder]

It's nice to have these legacy nicknames for days that remind us of, of what was back in the day. Lot of news obviously over the weekend. This thing in Michigan, again, horrific. I mean, it seems like a weekly event where we have someone with weapons. I mean, in this instance, a guy drove his truck into a Mormon church, shot up people. You will not hear much of it because it does not fit into the rubric of what the administration wants to push right now. We'll talk about this later. At the beginning of the week, I guess it was Friday, Stephen Miller was out there basically talking, you know, this is, what is it, step two of the Reichstag fire plan. And we're gonna see more of this. It's just gonna get worse. There is no, there is no returning to an era where we don't have fascism before it gets worse.

[Matt Binder]

I mean, just anticipate like when we see how bad things are right now, the economy is not going to improve in the short term at the very least. And I anticipate more of these authoritarian actions by the administration as a way to combat that and combat dissent. And Ken Klippenstein, we'll get to it later, but had great reporting on this. They are going to be monitoring, it seems to be the case, anti capitalist, anti Trump administration dissent and using that as a way to justify surveilling them and cracking down. And so it's not going to just be immigrants as some people anticipated. As if that wasn't bad enough.

[Sam Seder]

Well, I mean there's an old poem about this, right. First they came for, I mean listen, and this is going to be the they're claiming they're sending 200 troops to Portland to fight against riots or out of control protesters. And of course what's going to happen is the injection of these people is going to cause protests and then that's going to become the rationale. I'm in no way suggesting don't protest. But what I am suggesting is you watch this dynamic and because the more it is anticipated, the less effective it is. That's it. In the meantime, here are in Chicago, they have injected and we don't know who these people are. These guys could be, you know, some combination of FBI, incidentally the lowest amount of drug apprehensions in the like in years by the FBI over the past couple of months because They've all been pulled off of actual police work and now are in charge of marching through cities.

[Emma Vigeland]

Same with human trafficking stuff, of course.

[Sam Seder]

And so these are federal police. We don't know really what agency they come from. Some could be FBI, Some, theoretically, could be dea. Some could be prison guards. Some could be newly hired ICE agents. But they're marching around in Chicago in a show of force to, I guess, people who are visiting the city. Tourists are working or living in the city. Oh, pause it. And just in case. Pause it right there. Just in case you're wondering why they're in almost full military gear. There's a couple of brave ones who are just wearing cowboy hats, but the rest of them are wearing full tactical gear and, of course, masks up. And, of course, 90% of them are masked, as we've seen. That's generally when we watch fascists march through a city. We saw this the other day in Iowa. 90% of them are mass.

[Matt Binder]

I guess masks are okay when you're harming other people as opposed to protecting other people.

[Sam Seder]

Well, I. Maybe they're concerned about catching COVID which is legit diapers, which is legitimate. But they're probably wearing them for the same reason. I would imagine, when other militia. Fascist militia, march through cities, they don't want to be recognized. They're embarrassed by what they're doing. And, you know, I guess some measure of credit goes to these people that they know they should be embarrassed.

[Matt Binder]

Yeah.

[Sam Seder]

Here is a guy caught on a body cam of a. This is a ICE official caught on. On camera by somebody else's body cam. Maybe it was a cop, a local cop. I'm not. It's unclear. But listen to what this guy up in Cato, New York. This is Cato, New York, is like, up near the. I think it's, like, north of Syracuse, somewhere up in that area. Right. Rochester. Syracuse area near Lake Ontario, but, you know, so relatively close to the border, I guess. And. And you should know, 100 miles from the border in. Is where ICE can operate. So. Which is like 70% of the population in this country. But here he is. Listen to the way that he speaks of immigrants. There's countries like Brazil and other places where they're literal street rats at a very young age and are committing crimes. And then they come here. I don't know if you have kids, but they'll eat our kids for breakfast. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. They're street rats, and they'll eat our kids for breakfast.

[Matt Binder]

They're basically. He's calling them. Yeah. Thugs. And Criminals and cannibals, almost vermin, barely human. In fact, they are less than subhuman in that estimation. Because a dog can be your companion or a cat, they're actually an active threat to your children.

[Sam Seder]

Let's look at one of these very crafty individuals. We don't know the origin of this person, but it's unclear to me what he's going to get. But he's a delivery guy. This is in Chicago. And this is just fun because it gives you an opportunity to see our boys in camo operate tier one operators. Oh, man, they're salute some of border patrol. Of course, they're wearing masks. And they're in Chicago, which incidentally, not a border town, but nevertheless, they're here to protect you and get those bad delivery guys. Ready? Go. A.

[Matt Binder]

I like that. That guy wasn't.

[Sam Seder]

Hold on. I want you to do this. Yeah. You go back now. I want you to slow mo right here. And can you play it on slow mo? Okay, I go. Watch this. Look at this guy chasing him now. Watch. He has to. He's so out of breath, he runs around the white thing there. Those white things are like. They flop, and he has to go around it like he's in like, some type.

[Matt Binder]

Of course or he's doing a cone drill. He would not have made varsity.

[Sam Seder]

Oh, do that. Play that one more time. And I'm gonna just go like this. You ready?

[Matt Binder]

We have a statue.

[Sam Seder]

And go.

[Emma Vigeland]

What did the guys in the back think they were gonna do?

[Sam Seder]

This is my one chance to show effort today. They don't want to be on tape.

[Cory Doctorow]

Not hustling.

[Sam Seder]

Exactly. Look at me.

[Emma Vigeland]

Like, looking busy.

[Matt Binder]

Oh, God, I love that. That guy made them look like a bunch of home alone villains.

[Sam Seder]

Wow, that was. That guy was fast. What kind of bike was that?

[Emma Vigeland]

Not a single runner hired, like 50,000 guys that can't do, like, two minutes of running.

[Sam Seder]

They're all. They're all wearing cowboy boots, too. And they said, like, oh, they got some blisters.

[Emma Vigeland]

Yeah, they' of shape. And now they're, like, in, like, 100 pounds of body armor.

[Cory Doctorow]

Dress for Fallujah.

[Matt Binder]

Right, Right. Like that delivery driver has to do cardio all the time on that bike. You thought you were going to outrun him.

[Sam Seder]

All right, come on, let's.

[Matt Binder]

His calves are better than Sam's back in the day.

[Sam Seder]

Well, let's not get carried away. I go back. Ready? Let's go back. One, two, and three.

[Matt Binder]

Bye.

[Sam Seder]

Bye. That's the favor. Part two, where they all, like, sort of run into Each other. All right, well, we tried. What are you gonna do? We're gonna put out all app out on that guy. We gonna get. Who is he? I think it was Anson said chicken parm sandwiches in there.

[Cory Doctorow]

Who we had is like, I don't understand you. Can you please again.

[Sam Seder]

Who'S around the bike? Okay, let me just. I need five minutes. Oh my God. All right, in a moment we're going to be talking to Cory Dockerow, author of Insidification why Everything Suddenly Got Worse and what to Do About It. First couple words from our sponsors. One of our sponsors today. Long work weeks, busy weekends can have you feeling and looking depleted. Really do tell. But Prolon has a five day fasting mimicking diet that works at the cellular level to rejuvenate you from the inside out. They provide real results that include fat focused, sustainable weight loss with no injection needed. Now they're up in their game with the next generation five day program delivering the same science backed benefits in a cleaner, more convenient and more flavorful format. Prolon is a plant based nutrition program. It features soups, snacks and beverages designed to nourish the body while keeping it in a fasting state triggers cellular rejuvenation and renewal. It has been developed over decades at the USC's Longevity Instit Institute. They've got all the literature over on their site. Backed by top US medical centers, Prolon has been shown to support biological age reduction, metabolic health, skin appearance and fat loss and energy. The next gen builds the original prolon with 100% organic soups and teas. It's a richer taste and a ready to eat meals look. It is a five day plan that, you know, when I did it I thought I was, I thought it was going to be very, very difficult. It was not easy, but it was not nearly as hard as I thought it would be. And I had a lot of energy. The hardest part was really honestly sitting down with Saul and having him like go like, you know, really dramatic bites of his food while I had mine. But you know, by the second or third day that, that little chocolate cocoa crisp that they give you for dessert, like on day three, you're like, oh my God, right? This is so amazing. But really energy is great. You feel great doing it and after. And there, the research shows helps with longevity. Start to think about that more. At my age, for a limited time, Prolon's offering listeners 15% off site wide plus a $40 bonus gift. When you subscribe to their five day program, just visit prolonglife.com Majority that's P R O L O N L I F E.com Majority to claim your 15 discount and your bonus gift. Prolon Life.com Majority Check the podcast and YouTube descriptions for more information. Also sponsoring the program today, Smalls. What is Smalls? Smalls is a real cat food. Protein packed, made preservative free with ingredients that you would find in your fridge. Right now. If you're listening to the program, you can get 60% off your first order plus free shipping. Head to smalls.com use our promo code Majority for a limited time only. They deliver it right to your door. And cats.com named Smalls their best overall cat food. I don't need to hear that from cats.com with all due respect because my cat loves this stuff. And I will say that I've had the cat, now the new cat for we're getting close to a year and I feel like we hit something and I don't know if it was the Smalls or what because he loves the broth.

[Matt Binder]

Oh yeah.

[Sam Seder]

And, but they also the food. But he loves the bird broth, essentially the chicken and turkey broth. And we have hit some type of change in our relationship. Cat and I snuggle. Wow. I think it's also, it's like he's calmed down because he's not a kitten anymore. But like he'll let me sleep until like 6:30.

[Matt Binder]

Very nice.

[Sam Seder]

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[Matt Binder]

Yeah.

[Sam Seder]

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[Cory Doctorow]

Oh, it's a pleasure to be back on. Thank you so much for having me.

[Sam Seder]

And congrats on the new book. It is I had an advanced copy and it awesome. And I have to say, like the the concept of insignification you've been writing about for a long time and it is or it feels like it maybe I have no sense of time anymore. And it feels like people really understand this almost like inherently or at least they're aware of the experience. But walk us through sort of the process of insidification and this, I mean, walk us through this. But you can see this in not just online stuff, it feels like, but this is where it's sort of really almost art form.

[Cory Doctorow]

Yeah, sure. So, you know, as you may recall, I've spent most of my adult life, 24 years now working for the Electronic Frontier foundation on what you might broadly call digital human rights and getting people to understand those issues. It's kind of an uphill battle. It's very abstract. So I coined this term inshidification. And it turns out that giving people like a minor license to be slightly profane is what it' takes to get people to care about these very complicated technical issues. So insidification proposes a kind of theory of platform decay, what it looks like when they go bad, why they're going bad at once now and why it's so hard for us to leave them even after they turn bad. And then finally what we can do about it.

[Sam Seder]

And.

[Cory Doctorow]

Yeah, sorry, go ahead.

[Sam Seder]

No, no. Well, you know, like, I know that this happens sometimes with restaurants. Like, you know, the people don't come in, they start to cut back on quality of stuff and it' starts the demise. But in this instance, this is almost like this is the plan as opposed to like a restaurant. But you know, sort of like that's one there is struggling. This is the plan of of the essentially this is the business plan.

[Cory Doctorow]

Well, I would say it's not so much the plan as the playbook because I actually reject the idea that these guys had the executive function or forethought to lay in wait for us so long. Leaving a platform that was good for a while. Maybe I should say, you know, the, the characteristic pattern of Insid is you have platforms that are good to their end users, find a way to lock those users in, then make things better for their business customers, find a way to lock the business customers in, make things worse for them and then turn into a pile of shit. That's the insidification thesis. And I don't think they had the, I don't think they have the long term forethought. I think they're like too ketamine addled and an ADHD to do this. I think what happened was we used to have constraints where when these people got a bad idea about how to make things worse for us to make things better for them, they either realized or someone else convinced them that if they did it, they get punished. That competitors would swoop in or that hard to replace employees would leave, or that regulators would clobber them, or that new technology would be developed. Says something that made a, you know, 11 foot ladder to go over the 10 foot pile of shit they just thought of. And what happened was over decades, as we got rid of all those constraints, the punishments that these completely mediocre, terrible people used to worry about, or that used to stay their hand or that used to punish them if they didn't worry about it enough and they went ahead with it, then what happened was that these guys were able to yield to their worst impulses and things just got better for them and worse for us.

[Matt Binder]

Does it have to do with the structure of big tech and the move fast break things period where there was so much investment money, there was an attempt to grow the economy through the tech sector and these tools, whether it be social media or what have you, weren't straightforward in how they were going to make money for, for these guys. So they created and like created these tools, raised a shit ton of money, and then they have to work backwards from that. Like that's what it feels like more than anything. It's a failure of our government to catch up to these new technologies, but even more so it's a function of speculative capitalism.

[Cory Doctorow]

See, I actually completely disagree. I think it's your regulatory environment. So you know, look at Google. Google wasn't like not making money, right? It wasn't like Google was like getting an investor subsidy like OpenAI is now. And then just had to figure out how to turn this crews to make money. Google was the most profitable company in the history of the world and then they made things worse. And so it wasn't because of an overinvestment trying to catch up. It's because policymakers, far from failing to keep up with technology, took decisions right, like we decided to stop enforcing antitrust laws. So you have Google, which is a company that had one good idea in the previous millennium when they made a really good search engine and has had no good ideas since. Everything they've done successfully since then was a company they bought in defiance of antitrust law through forbearance for predatory acquisitions. And you know, their internal measures are all things that failed. And we also let these companies invade our privacy. Again. That's not Congress failing to anticipate this. This is Congress is not acting. The last time Congress gave us a new federal privacy consumer law was in 1988 when Reagan banned video store clerks from telling the newspapers which VHS cassettes you have. That's why Google spies on us. It's not because they failed to catch. It's because we let them merge to monopoly. We let the Internet turn into five giant websites filled with screenshots of text from the other four. When you have a cartel or a monopoly or duopoly, they capture their regulators. Their workers were too short sighted to unionize when they had a ton of power. And so to the extent that they were able to hold the line by saying no, I'm not going to shitify that thing, I missed my mother's funeral to ship on time for you and the guy across the street will give me a job if you fire me and try and make me do it. That went away as soon as supply caught up with demand. We've had half a million tech layoffs in the last three years. And we saw the monotonic expansion of IP law that makes reverse engineering, ad blocking interoperable clients, alt clients, things that would allow technologists whether working for startups or co ops or individuals to check those bad impulses. We saw them go away. If I can give one little example here, in 1998 Bill Clinton signed the Digital Millennium Copyright Act. It's a law that bans reverse engineering. It carries a five year prison sentence and a $500,000 fine. And what that means is that if you just design your product so that it doesn't have an open way to alter its behaviors so that you have to reverse engineer it to change how it works. Then it just becomes illegal to change how it works. This is how we ended up with like printer ink, where you can't just install generic ink. It's not that it's hard to overcome the thing that checks for generic ink. It's just a crime, right? So imagine like we're in a product planning meeting for our website and the guy running the meeting, he says, I got an idea. We're going to make the ads 20% more obnoxious and invasive. We'll get a 2% increase in top line ad revenue. That's our big KPI. Everyone's going to get rich. Someone who doesn't care about user welfare is going to stick their hand up and say, you know, Elon, I love how you think, but has it occurred to you we make the ads 20% more obnoxious. 40% of our users are going to install an ad blocker because you don't need to reverse engineer a web browser to put in an ad blocker. 51% of web users have installed an ad blocker. It's the biggest boycott in human history. Meanwhile, it's illegal to do that for an app because you have to reverse engineer the app to do it. So when we say, okay, well how obnoxious are we going to make the ads in the ad blocker in the app? Rather that same person's going to say, oh no, you should make them like 100% more obnoxious, get a 10% increase in revenue. And it's not like we didn't warn that this would happen when it, when this law was passed. The guy who was responsible for this law, Bruce Lehman, Bill Clinton's IPs are. He was laughed out of Al Gore's information information superhighway hearings. He was chased to Geneva where he made it a WIPO treaty at the un and then Congress was warned when they passed it. These are like totally foreseeable outcomes. It's not that these guys are so smart, they're running circles around Congress. It's that Congress created the shitagenic environment and then we got and should have seen.

[Sam Seder]

And in that environment, is that created simply because of the sort of like move away from the prior existing antitrust sort of perspective? I mean, which we saw a return brief, as it were. It was during the Biden administration. That's when a lot of these cases, some of the cases were actually started during the Trump years. But a lot of these cases in terms of Google in particular, and you know, I suppose we could debate as to whether or not the judges understand the political environment they're in. We just saw the remedy part of, of one of the Google cases was a joke. I mean, just an absolute farce. So what? And I know you write about this obviously in the book, but the, this impulse is just simply always to like water flowing downhill in terms of a pursuit of whatever small profit increase there can be. And if there's no dam there essentially, or obstacle, they're just gonna go, yeah, that's right.

[Cory Doctorow]

I mean, these guys, they get up every morning and they go grab the giant lever yanked in shitification in the C suite. And it used to be that stuff used to stop the lever, right? They had to worry about competitors and regulators and workers and other technologies, and they don't have to worry about it. So the lever has been sort of lubricated and it moves really freely. You know, you mentioned that the judge failed in the Google case, and boy, did that judge, Judge Amit Mehta, ever fail. But, but it's not like the judges got a mind virus or something. We even know how the judges lost track of how antitrust law works. So there was this fringe guy, Robert Bork, who was a arch conservative, Nixonite criminal, failed to be appointed to the Supreme Court. And he had this idea he was borked. He was borked. That's where the term borked comes from. And one of the ways he got borked, by the way, was that his video rental history was leaked, which is why Ronald Reagan signed the last privacy law we ever got turned out. The best thing you could say about Robert Bork, is he a pretty good taste in movies. But I think Congress were like, oh, no, when they leak my video rental history, it's going to be bad. So they, they moved to ban it. So, you know, you had this fringe, this fringe guy, Robert Bork, and he had these bad ideas that antitrust was, you know, a fool's errand. That when you saw a monopoly, it was because, like, companies were good. Right? If 90% of the world uses Google search, it's because it's the best sear. And it would be really perverse to punish Google for making a product we all love. And so, you know, they put a lot of money behind that project. They convinced Jimmy Carter to start with the agenda. Reagan really picked it up. But here's the thing. They played an inside, outside game because judges have to go for continuing education courses just like any other professional. And they funded this thing called the Mann Seminars. M A N N E. They're these luxury junkets in Florida, all expenses paid. 40% of the federal judiciary graduated from it. And it was just a session where you would learn about how antitrust was bad and monopolies were efficient. There's good empirical work from Princeton researchers showing that judges who attended the Mann seminars went on to rule differently, to rule in favor of monopolies. And it wasn't just those judges that were affected because they created an edifice of precedent. Right. So this was just like concentrated wealth. Right. Like again, it's tempting to think of this as like the great forces of history or an intrinsic function of capitalism or the iron laws of economics. These were just like a bunch of guys whose names we know who did stuff that would have this predictable outcome and many of whom are like still alive and walking around today and not worrying that someone's going to size them up for a pitchfork. And we kind of let them off the hook when we say, oh well, Congress couldn't keep up or, you know, it's because of VCs. VCs want as much profit as they can get, but they don't want to to do things that aren't profitable. Like when I used to run a website with some friends called Boing Boing still around. I'm not involved in it anymore. And in the early days of the web, pop up ads were everywhere. And not these like wussy pop up as you get now that are like a box inside your browser is a whole other browser window. It was one pixel square, it autoplayed music, it ran away from your cursor. And we would try to tell our advertisers, you know, like, everyone hates these. We don't want to put them in our website. And they'd be like, well then we don't want to pay for ads on your website. But as soon as ad blocking was turned on by default in the major browsers, we just went to them and said, here's our log files. 90% of our users never see a pop up ad. And all of a sudden this thing that they were absolutely demanding with no exceptions possible became a thing they didn't give a damn about. VCs only want the things that will make money for them. And the policy environment determines what the rest of us do when they initiate the products we like. You know, when Mark Zuckerberg was tempting people off of MySpace, he didn't rely on them leaving MySpace, going to Facebook and then waiting for their dumb friends to join them. He knew that they liked their friends more than they hated Rupert Murdoch. So he gave them bot. It had a login and a password field. It would go to MySpace several times a day, grab everything waiting for them there, put them in their Facebook inbox, and you could reply to on Facebook, push it back out to MySpace, and he just bled off their users. But, you know, the expansion of IP law over 20 years means that if you do that to Mark Zuckerberg, he will nuke you till you close. And so, like, again, we told the people who made these policies that this was going to happen. They were like, oh, you're being hysterical. And here we are, the world's most mediocre billionaires in charge of 4 billion people's social media lives.

[Sam Seder]

Once that original sin is committed, right, where they think like, oh, you'll be, you're exaggerating. We need to let this be a fertile ground for growth, blah, blah, blah. Is it that much harder to get it back? I mean, a lot of what you talk about in the book is like, you know, the mass movements that we need to reverse things. But the. But it's that much harder now too. I mean, on some level, right, Because Zuckerberg spending a lot of money to. He no longer has to convince people as much. And I gotta say, that man thing I did had no idea about that professional. Like, I know that world in terms of lawyers, but that makes total sense. Somebody's funding that thing. It's like, it's like what happened with OxyContin.

[Cory Doctorow]

It is exactly what happened with OxyContin.

[Sam Seder]

It's just marketed to the taste makers, essentially.

[Cory Doctorow]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's exactly what happened. So, I mean, I think that, that. Sorry, I lost, I lost the question.

[Sam Seder]

Let me rephrase it. Let me.

[Cory Doctorow]

No, no, just, just refreshment.

[Sam Seder]

Well, it was like, you know, the obstacles that were faced in reversing it are far greater than maybe in the first place.

[Cory Doctorow]

I remember now. Yeah.

[Sam Seder]

Let me just add to that. In that the environment we're going to be dealing with, if we get to a post Trump era, like, is going to have to be much more radical change. Like, there's no returning back to where we were.

[Cory Doctorow]

Right, that's right.

[Sam Seder]

I mean, talk about, like.

[Cory Doctorow]

Sure. So, yeah, look, the people who created our antitrust laws, right. The first one was like Senator John Sherman, brother of Tecumseh Sherman, you know, the guy who burned Atlanta. You know, they said if we wouldn't allow a king to rule the country, we shouldn't allow an autocrat of trade. And they understood that. You know, people like John D. Rockefeller were more powerful than most state governments and arguably more powerful than the US government. It was a real uphill slogan. One of the things that laws like the Sherman act and the Clayton act take aim at is something called incipiency. So it's not like a merger that will create enough power to take over the government, but a merger that will create enough power to create another merger, to create another merger to take over the government. This idea that you want to stop these roll ups like we see with like private equity where they buy one funeral home at a time, but eventually all the funeral homes in your neighborhood are owned by one private equity fund and when you die you're going to pay rent to them. So the decision not to enforce antitrust law created these monopolies that were very hard to budge. In 1970 the D.O. sued IBM and that lawsuit went on until 1982, 12 consecutive years. They called it Antitrusts Vietnam. IBM spent more on lawyers to fight the DOJ antitrust division than all the lawyers in the DOJ antitrust division cost the US Government. They outspent the US Government for more than a decade. They ran out the clock. Reagan got elected and he halted the case. And so they won. And so you can see why it's much better to prevent monopolies while they're forming than it is to wait for them to become mature, to become bigger than governments. And I tell this to libertarian friends, I'm like, guys, you think that the only role for a government is enforcing contracts? All right then. Well the referee is certainly going to have to be more powerful than the players on the field. The smallest government you can have has to be bigger than the largest corporation you're willing to tolerate. Otherwise they're not going to do the job you think that they should be doing. And with all that said, and it is very dispiriting and like all the best Americans, I'm Canadian and I'm reminded at times like this of this Canadian aphorism from down east that if you wanted to get there, I wouldn't start from here. And with all that said something I think that's like quietly miraculous has happened since the late 2010s that a lot of progressives and leftists have not noticed, which is that all over the world we've seen this surge of antitrust action, right?

[Matt Binder]

Yeah. In Europe. I was about to ask you about that, Corey. They're the kind of leading the charge on antitrust with Big Big Tech, if you don't mind expanding on.

[Cory Doctorow]

They sure Are, Yeah, the Digital Markets act. The Digital Services Act. I'll give you an idea of how muscular and far reaching the Digital Markets act is. Apple has just threatened to stop selling iPhones in Europe. Right. Which is like not going to happen, right? You know, like we fetch about how shareholders are short term, but like this is one place where it works in our favor. You know, Tim Cook going to his shareholders and saying, sure, we're not going to sell phones to 500 million affluent consumers right now, but eventually the EU will capitulate and they'll be like, no, no, no, no, we want money next quarter. Forget that. Right. So it's not just Europe though. So Canada has had a very weak competition regulator through most of its history. Our Competition Bureau in its history challenged three mergers and was successful zero times. But in 2024, a guy who's kind of a corporate lick spittle, Justin Trudeau led a three line whip for his MPs and passed the most muscular, big aggressive antitrust law in Canadian history. Now the Competition Bureau is one of the most powerful in the world.

[Sam Seder]

World.

[Cory Doctorow]

We've seen antitrust action in the UK under a series of like extremely shambolic, far right, terrible prime ministers. And not only that, but tech antitrust, where the Digital markets unit was the largest technical antitrust unit in the world. 70 full time engineers on HMG's payroll. But we saw it in Australia and we saw it in China. The Chinese Cyberspace directive bans Chinese tech companies, the big ones, from blocking little ones from competing with them. Because I think Xi Jinping really believes that these companies are not an arm of Chinese soft power abroad, that they're a competitor for Chinese state power at home. And so even he's reached the end of his rope with these guys. And political science. There's big studies of the Princeton study of thousands of political outcomes that concluded that the preferences of the public are effectively irrelevant. If billionaires want something, it happens. If billionaires don't want something, it doesn't matter how popular or unpopular it is with the public. This is like defying all political logic. This is water flowing uphill, right? The law of gravity has been repealed all over the world. No one really knows why.

[Sam Seder]

And I was just going to ask you, like, what do you. Why, why do you think that's the case? And I know you have a heart out. Is it. It's at 12:55. Yes.

[Cory Doctorow]

Yeah, that's right. In eight minutes. I've got to go to my next call.

[Sam Seder]

But why do you think that is? Or is it just like an awareness of. Is it just that it's become so, like, excessive and obvious? I mean, in this country, it's quite clear that we can't even, to the extent that we're going to be getting economic numbers anymore out of this administration, the economic numbers that have ostensibly told the story in the past are no longer actually telling the story they purport to because we have such a concentration of wealth that it's almost like a small, far more smaller group of people can change what the economy looks like from 30,000ft. When you get closer to the ground, it's a very different story.

[Cory Doctorow]

Yeah, the consumption numbers just tell you what billionaires are spending, and everyone else is like, you know, sitting on a mountain of credit card debt and stuck in place. So I think, you know, there's a lot of different factors coming together here. So, you know, Stein's Law out of the finance sector says anything that can't go on forever eventually stops. And I think that's sort of what you were just describing, that people have really reached the end of their tether. But there's also this idea that, like, political change is downstream of coalition formation. Right. You know, the reason the Trump coalition is so powerful is because a bunch of people who hate each other agreed to work together. Right. When you have, like, Christian dominionists and, like, Hindu nationalists and, you know, isolationists and imperialists all under the same umbrella. Right. That's. That's very weird. Right. It's a. It's like it's. And you see that it's very powerful when it happens. My friend James Boyle, he talks about this in the context of the environmental movement. He says that before the term ecology entered our lexicon in the 70s, people didn't know they were on the same side. You know, you care about owls, I care about the ozone layer. It's like, what's charismatic nocturnal avians have to do with the gaseous composition of the upper atmosphere. We're not really on the same team, but you can weld a team together by creating this conceptual framework for it. And I think there's this sense that concentrated wealth is the source of so many of our problems. And while people are, like, not super au fait with antitrust law because it's been in a coma for 50 years, there is this, I think, like, inchoate understanding that anti monopoly is anti wealth concentration. Like, literally, that's just what it means. And, you know, maybe like generations and playing a terrible board game in our living rooms have taught us what a monopoly is. At least Right. And so when you say, oh, we're going to fight monopolies, people may not have a sharp connection between that and the problems that they're facing, but they do know that this wealth concentration stuff is what's poisoning everything else. And I think that's true on the right. I think that's why you get populist right wing figures like Matt Gaetz of all people who call themselves a conservative for Lina Khan. There's like, like, I think those people are waiting to be picked off by us, frankly, you know, because the conservatives are not going to deliver on their anti monopoly promises. You know, Trump is just going to use monopoly law to extract settlement payments from and concessions from companies, you know, to make companies, you know, give him all kinds of favorable media attention in exchange for letting Larry Ellison buy every media outlet in America, you know.

[Sam Seder]

Right. It's an umbrella for essentially for bribes. Yeah, but, but there still has to be at least some pretend, I think, sort of like support of the broad concept.

[Cory Doctorow]

Yeah. Lip service.

[Sam Seder]

Yes. And I guess, you know, ultimately, maybe that lip service ultimately can be exploited. What can people do? Is it even, is there any value in the short term of like, particular habits at this point to push back? Or is it ultimately we need political movements to get real change?

[Cory Doctorow]

Well, I don't think it'll surprise you to hear that I'm skeptical of changing your consumption habits as a way of changing the world. I don't think that you're going to like, shop hard enough to make monopolies go away in the same way that it doesn't matter how many buckets you sort your recycling into, it's not going to end the climate emergency. Right, right. But you know, that's not to say that there aren't good reasons, personal reasons, to change what you do. If like Twitter is ruining your mental health and you think Blue sky be better, by all means, join Blue sky or Mastodon. Not because, like it's going to hurt Elon Musk, but because it might help you. And you know, if there's like a vendor you like or like a artist or a performer and you support them, that's great. By all means. It's like helping someone put grocer on their table and a roof over their head to do something that makes you happy. Sure, right. But it's not change. Change comes from, as you say, political movements. It's a systemic problem. I, as I mentioned, I've worked for the Electronic Frontier foundation for going on 25 years now. We have a national network of community and regional activist groups called the Electronic Frontier alliance efa EFF.org Electronic Frontier alliance from the Electronic Frontier Foundation. And they work on local stuff, things like facial recognition ordinances, limits on landlords colluding to raise rent, using price sharing platforms, state laws on right to repair. All kinds of issues that are really striking at the way that monopolies insert themselves into your life personally. And there's a lot of room at the state level and at the local level to do this stuff. One of the interesting factors about today's tech monopolies that makes them different from say, John D. Rockefeller and Standard Oil is that they do the same bad thing to everyone, everywhere in the world. You know, John D. Rockefeller had a bunch of monopolies over like oil wells and pipelines and refineries in America and over ports in Germany. And when trust busters in Germany and trust busters in America talk to each other, they had nothing really to say except they didn't like this Rockefeller guy. But it wasn't like they could help each other with their case. Whereas now we get British tech regulators writing reports on abuses in the mobile payments market. You have European regulators turning those into laws and court cases, and you have those court cases being copied, translated and pasted into successful cases in South Korea and Japan. And what we're doing in America with the Electronic Frontier alliance is we are replicating the successes against Flock, against RealPage, against predictive policing companies across different territories within the US because it's the same scam everywhere. Right. And so the thing that works in one place works somewhere else.

[Sam Seder]

Well, we will put a link to that. And it's also, I imagine, a great place to go and build a larger movement because you're bringing people in there from multiple ideologies.

[Cory Doctorow]

That's right.

[Sam Seder]

Corey, where can people find inshidification? I mean, the book.

[Cory Doctorow]

Yeah, yeah. Any bookstore will have it. It's published by Macmillan, by their Ferrastros and Giroux imprint. And they're one of the big five, so they're distributed nationally. You can go to bookshop.org if you don't want to buy Jeff Bezos Another Penis Shaped Rocket. And you know, the one tricky part of my sales channel is that Amazon won't carry my audiobooks because they're not locked to Amazon's platform. I refuse to do that. So you can't get them on Amazon, you can't get them on Audible, and you can't get them on audiobooks.com youm can get them everywhere else. So Libro FM carries them downpour, even Google Play because they don't have this lock in stuff for audiobooks. They have lock in for other stuff. And you can get my ebooks and audiobooks from me, too. I have an ebook and audiobook store, craphound.com shop, and it is the only place I know of in the world where you can buy an ebook from a major publisher that is a sale and not a license. You own it, you can sell it to someone else. You can give it away, you can lend it out. If you and your partner divorce, you can divide it up in the estate, you can leave it to your kids. So craphound.com shop.

[Sam Seder]

All right. We'll put a link to that as well. Corey, really appreciate your work always. And thanks for coming on talking.

[Cory Doctorow]

I appreciate having me on. We'll have to do this again. We have more time. I got to get on my next call. All right. Lovely chatting with you guys. Thanks, Emma. Thanks, Corey.

[Sam Seder]

Bye.

[Cory Doctorow]

Bye, bye.

[Sam Seder]

All right, folks. Yeah, that's it for us today in the free half of the show. We're going to head into the fun half of the program where we've got a lot more to talk about. But check out that EFA at the eff. The EFF also was very helpful back in the day when somebody who had sat on a podcast patent was trying. Were you here with that? No. You weren't? No. But I heard this of your Marin episode. This was the premise of the Marin episode because I got contacted around the same time as Marin and I, you know, Marin was a bigger fish, but I had. I can't remember at the time, but, you know, I had been in contact with the effort as guests. So I connected them. I was just getting very excited because they wanted to. The patent trolls wanted to talk to my cfo. And I was sitting in a, like, literally a closet almost with Michael and Matt Binder, and I'm like, oh, okay. What I'll do is I'll get one of those accountant hats and I'm going to do a zoom call with them, have Matt videotape it. And I go like, I'm gonna get my cfo. Hey, guys, just come back with the hat.

[Matt Binder]

Wait, what's an accountant hat?

[Sam Seder]

The green hat.

[Matt Binder]

Oh, yes. God, yeah. I mean, that's old. That's like Mafia movies. They wear them in those, right?

[Sam Seder]

Did they wear. Well, I mean, in like the twenties, nineteen twenties. Talking about.

[Emma Vigeland]

About twentieth century iconography here.

[Matt Binder]

I mean, I mean, accountants, what are they now? Like, just AI Basically gotta be.

[Sam Seder]

Yeah.

[Matt Binder]

Half replaced, actually.

[Emma Vigeland]

There's a huge shortage of accountants. It turns out it's tough to find qualified accountants. I've been reading the FT lately.

[Matt Binder]

It's been in shiddification. Died.

[Sam Seder]

That's close enough.

[Emma Vigeland]

That's the LEK approach to accounting is taking hold.

[Sam Seder]

Folks. Just keep in mind it's your support that makes this show possible. You can become a [e-mail] when you do, you not only get the free show free of commercials, but you also get the fun half and you keep this show thriving and surviving. Frankly, we don't want to be at the mercy of a monopoly like Google. So your memberships are very, very helpful.

[Matt Binder]

You're not going to testify on Google's path.

[Sam Seder]

I've told that story here, right? Yes.

[Matt Binder]

People can go deep cut, deep cut on that.

[Sam Seder]

Also, if you're watching us on Twitch, you can give us your Amazon prime subscription for the month. You can point it towards us. You don't have to pay anything. We don't obviously get your Amazon prime subscription. You basically just attribute it to us for that month.

[Emma Vigeland]

Otherwise it goes to Jeff Bezos.

[Sam Seder]

Exactly. Bezos is just sitting on that stuff. We want our own penis shaped rocket. Exactly.

[Emma Vigeland]

There's probably like been a rocket launch just with the unused Twitch prime subscribers.

[Sam Seder]

Also just Coffee Co op. They're a co op. They're located in Madison, Wisconsin. They really support their growers in Central America and in Africa. And they have majority report plant among other great blends or single origin coffees. Just Coffee Co op use the coupon code. Majority get 10% off. Matt. Left Reckoning.

[Emma Vigeland]

Yeah, we had a Sunday show for our Left Reckoning patrons yesterday where we went into a new gubernatorial campaign. Andrew White in Texas, which kind of, it's not very inspiring, but also talked about Megyn Kelly who's filling in for Charlie Kirk at TPUSA meetings. Maybe staring into an abyss, she was unaware of how dark it was because she's taking questions about the role of particularly Jewish billionaires in air politics. And I'll just say it's going to be tough for anybody to try to straddle that right wing the way Charlie had it. I think they're in for a world of. I mean, I said the abyss. So yeah, check it out. Patreon.com left reckoning show tomorrow night.

[Sam Seder]

See you in the fun half. Three months from now, six months from now, nine months from now. And I don't think it's gonna be the same as it looks like in six months from now. And I don't know if it's necessarily gonna be better six months from now than it is three months from now, but I think around 18 months out, we're gonna look back and go like, wow. What? What is that going on? It's nuts. Wait a second. Hold on. Hold on for a second. The months already run for Emma. Welcome to the program. Fun Half. Matt. Fun Pat. What is up, everyone? Fun Pat. No. Me. Keen.

[Cory Doctorow]

You did it.

[Sam Seder]

Fun pack.

[Matt Binder]

Let's go, Brandon.

[Sam Seder]

Let's go, Brandon. Fun path. Bradley, you want to say hello? Sorry to disappoint everyone. I'm just a random guy. It's all the boys today.

[Cory Doctorow]

Fundamentally false. No.

[Matt Binder]

I'm sorry. Sorry.

[Sam Seder]

Women. Stop talking for a second and let me finish.

[Cory Doctorow]

Where is this coming from?

[Matt Binder]

Dude?

[Sam Seder]

But. Dude, you want to smoke this? 7A.

[Matt Binder]

Yes.

[Sam Seder]

Hi.

[Cory Doctorow]

Me. This.

[Sam Seder]

Yes. Is this me? Is it me? It is you. This is me. Oh, it's me. Think it is you. Who is you? No sound. Every single freaking day. What's on your mind? Sports.

[Cory Doctorow]

We can discuss free markets and we can discuss capitalism.

[Sam Seder]

I'm going to go skyway. Libertarians. They're so stupid. Though common sense says of course.

[Matt Binder]

Gobbledygook.

[Sam Seder]

We nailed him.

[Matt Binder]

So what's 79? 21?

[Sam Seder]

Challenge. Matt.

[Cory Doctorow]

I'm positively quivering.

[Sam Seder]

Leave 96 up. Want to say 8, 5, 7, 2, 1, 0? 3 5, 5, 011 half. 3, 8, 9, 11.

[Matt Binder]

For instance, $3,400. $1,900.

[Sam Seder]

5, 4, $3 trillion. Sold. It's a zero sum game. Actually.

[Matt Binder]

You're making me think less of.

[Sam Seder]

Wait. But let me say this. You can call it satire.

[Cory Doctorow]

Sam goes satire on top of it all. My favorite part about you is just.

[Matt Binder]

Like every day, all day, like everything you do.

[Sam Seder]

Without a doubt. Hey, buddy. We see you. All right, folks, folks, folks.

[Matt Binder]

It's just the week being weeded out. Obviously.

[Sam Seder]

Yeah. Sun's out, guns out. I. I don't know.

[Matt Binder]

But you should know.

[Sam Seder]

People just don't.

[Emma Vigeland]

Like to entertain ideas.

[Sam Seder]

Anyway, I have a question. Who cares?

[Emma Vigeland]

Our chat is enabled, folks.

[Sam Seder]

I love it. I do love that Mom. Gotta jump. Gotta be quick. I gotta jump. I'm losing it, bro. Two o', clock, we're already late and the guy's being a dick, so screw him. Sent to a gulab.

[Matt Binder]

Outrageous.

[Sam Seder]

Like, what is wrong Wrong with you? Love you. Bye. Love you. Bye. Bye.