3592 - Trump's Government Shut Down and Argentine Bailout w/ Frederico Finchelstein

Summary

The Majority Report with Sam Seder

Episode 3592 – Trump's Government Shutdown and Argentine Bailout w/ Federico Finkelstein

Date: September 30, 2025
Guest: Federico Finkelstein, Argentine historian and Chair of the History Department at the New School for Social Research

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Episode Overview

This episode of The Majority Report dives into two major, interconnected crises: the imminent U.S. government shutdown under Trump’s regime and the American-backed bailout of Argentine President Javier Milei, a far-right “mini-Trump.” Host Sam Seder and his co-hosts critically analyze the Democratic leadership’s response to the shutdown and the media spectacle surrounding negotiations, before bringing on Federico Finkelstein to place the Argentine situation in a broader global context of rising authoritarianism and economic turmoil. The show is characterized by its sharp, irreverent progressive analysis and willingness to call out both Republican extremism and Democratic complacency.

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Key Discussion Points and Segments

1. Democratic Leadership and the Looming Government Shutdown

• Start — 22:06
  • The government is hours away from an explicit shutdown, engineered by the Trump regime.
  • Sam and Matt critique Senate Majority Leader Chuck Schumer and House Minority Leader Hakeem Jeffries for their weak, ineffectual messaging.

Notable Analysis:

• Dems are persistently reactive and fail to go on the offense; their language is obscure and technocratic, making their case invisible to the public.
• Schumer, compared unfavorably to Harry Reid, is described as "soft on the outside and even softer on the inside" when it comes to confronting Republicans.
  • Quote (Sam Seder, 05:28):
    “Chuck Schumer, on the other hand, both appears soft on the outside and is even softer on the inside when it comes to aggressively confronting this moment.”

Criticisms of Press Conferences and Political Messaging:

• Dem leaders discuss “impoundment” and “rescissions” instead of using accessible, compelling language that links the shutdown to concrete public harm.
• Quote (Sam Seder, 09:26):
  “Go ask your mom or your friend if they know what impoundment and rescissions mean… people would look at you like they look at me.”

Reaction to Trump’s Social Media Attack:

• Trump releases an AI-generated, racist meme video mocking Democrats.
• The hosts emphasize how these stunts further humiliate weak Democratic leadership rather than directly harming Trump.
  • Quote (Sam Seder, 12:04):
    “He’s basically saying, you’re my bitches. Look at—This is how much I have respect for you… I mock you. I laugh in your face. I mean, this is what happens when you show this level of weakness.”

On Democratic Donor Influence:

• Democrats are seen as more worried about the stock market’s reaction (and thus donor panic) than forming a cohesive political response for the public.
  • Quote (Matt, 12:59):
    “The problem here is that Schumer and Jeffries, of course, are beholden to donors, and the donors are panicked about the government shutdown.”

2. Blame and Political Risk of a Shutdown

• 22:06 — 24:29
  • Polling shows the public blames Republicans by a wide margin for the shutdown; the narrative that Democrats will be punished is called “a fiction.”
  • Quote (Matt, 21:06):
    “The idea that it hurts Democrats’ chances is a fiction... it’s a fig leaf to cover up the fact that [Democrats] don’t want to do anything because their donors are afraid of the stock market.”

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3. Interview: Federico Finkelstein on Argentina’s “Mini-Trump” and the U.S.-Backed Bailout

• 29:53 — 57:20

Who is Javier Milei?

• Finkelstein describes Milei as “one of the latest representatives of the wannabe fascist trend that Trump represents globally”—an imitator of Trump but constrained by Argentina’s limits.
  • Quote (Finkelstein, 29:53):
    “Milei is one of the latest representatives of the wannabe fascist trend that Trump represents globally… I have often called him a mini-Trump...”

Economic Policy and the Myth of Libertarianism

• Milei’s policies are characterized as orthodox austerity: aggressive spending cuts, currency controls, growing poverty, and inequality—not true “libertarian freedom.”
  • Quote (Finkelstein, 30:50):
    “He claims to be a libertarian, and yet… his policies seem to be a kind of very standard austerity measure... The freedom part... has been absent.”

U.S. Bailout: Geopolitical and Financial Motives

• Despite “America First” rhetoric, the U.S. is bailing out Milei to the tune of $20B in swaps after an IMF bailout. Why?
  • Ideological alignment: U.S. sees Milei as a loyal Trump ally, delivering a proxy win for Trump’s agenda.
  • Possible backdoor bailout of U.S. bondholders and Trump’s billionaire friends.
    • Quote (Finkelstein, 35:42):
      “If that is the case, [it’s] a typical example of Trump choosing financial interests over... his own voters or many of his own voters.”

Corruption, Cryptocurrency, and Cronyism

• Discussion of Milei’s obsession with crypto, use of state power to launder money, and nepotistic governance with his powerful sister.
  • Crypto is seen as a mechanism for evading oversight and facilitating global corruption.
  • Allegations of direct personal enrichment and blurred boundaries between Milei's family and state.
    • Quote (Finkelstein, 37:25):
      “There were internal communications...there was I think a half a million dollar transfer after some communication with people close to Milei and so on. And in addition to that, his sister...basically running many aspects of Milei's government...”

Wannabe Fascism: What Prevents Full-Blown Authoritarianism?

• The distinction between “wannabe” and actual fascism lies in civil society reaction: protests, elections, and institutional safeguards.
• Comparison to Bolsonaro in Brazil, and the prosecution he faced for attempting a coup—contrasted with U.S. impunity.
  • Quote (Finkelstein, 41:15):
    “Being a wannabe fascist doesn’t mean arriving at the fascist point—often, because societies react either by voting, by protesting, and also by asking for their own institutions to...play their role.”

Social Foundation of Fascism and Public Response

• Fascists offer “hatred instead of goods or material improvements,” selling scapegoating when they cannot deliver materially.
• Argentina’s history of dictatorship creates a robust tradition of protest and skepticism toward power; massive street protests have forced Milei to retreat from key attacks.
  • Quote (Finkelstein, 45:25):
    “Fascists...sell hatred instead of goods or material improvements...they don’t give you anything but hatred, a sense of superiority...At some point economic crisis and poverty kick in.”
• By contrast, the American public is more “numbed” and less likely to mobilize in massive numbers, making the U.S. uniquely vulnerable.

Historical and Structural Factors in Argentina vs. U.S.

• Argentina’s lack of anti-democratic institutions like the U.S. Electoral College, and its distinct political culture, allows electoral blowback against authoritarians.
• Tradition of labor, solidarity, and living memory of dictatorship drive skepticism and protest.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Democratic Leadership’s Weakness (Sam Seder, 10:13):
  “You come out and you say, one of the problems we’ve had making a deal is that Donald Trump doesn’t follow the rules and he’s breaking things for the American people and we want him to stop. Right. Like this should be about...the Democrats are saying, like, he's doing bad things to Americans. We want him to Stop.”
• On the Opportunity for Political Messaging (Matt, 21:06):
  “The idea that it hurts Democrats’ chances is a fiction...”
• On the U.S. Bailout of Milei (Finkelstein, 32:16):
  “From the position of the U.S....why helping this kind of mini-Trump?...Although these policies have been celebrated, poverty had increased, incredible levels of poverty and income inequality… And in that context, Trump somehow imposing himself in the campaign, trying to show that the U.S. supports this model.”
• On Fascism, Hatred, and What Makes People Mobilize (Finkelstein, 45:25):
  “They sell hatred instead of goods or material improvements. This is the reason why...German Social Democrats called the proposal of fascism the socialism of the imbeciles. Because basically they don't give you anything but hatred… At some point economic crisis and poverty kicks. And that is the reason why many people lament they have supported this kind of antidemocratic choices.”
• On Argentine Public’s Mobilization (Finkelstein, 52:30):
  “The equivalent will be...having every now and then the Washington Mall and...the main squares in every city full of people. I mean, that's the message like, that people mobilize in order to give a message to those...to those in power.”

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Timestamps for Key Segments

| Timestamp | Segment Description | |-----------|--------------------| | 04:32–17:10 | Breakdown of Dem leadership on shutdown: Schumer & Jeffries criticized | | 18:07–22:06 | Reaction to Trump’s racist AI video; failures in Democratic pushback | | 22:06–24:29 | Who gets blamed for a shutdown? Media myths debunked | | 29:53–41:15 | Federico Finkelstein introduction, Milei’s background, U.S.-Argentina bailout | | 41:15–43:31 | Wannabe Fascism: limits, resistance, Brazil/US comparisons | | 45:25–51:05 | Public reaction—fascism, economic crisis, mass protests in Argentina | | 52:30–54:30 | Political culture, protest traditions, role of leadership and labor | | 54:30–57:20 | Corruption, traditions, Milei's rhetoric, relevance for the U.S., final thoughts |

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Conclusion

This episode paints a sobering picture of a Democratic Party failing to rise to the challenge of a belligerent far-right executive, both at home and abroad. The U.S. is not just abdicating leadership but actively exporting and bankrolling authoritarian governance in the Southern Hemisphere. Finkelstein’s analysis bridges the American and Argentine experiences, showing how civil society can resist autocracy—but also how elite-driven economic and political structures enable it. Whether discussing the numbed U.S. political climate or the tradition of Argentine protest, the message is clear: only broad-based, sustained public mobilization can block the slide into “wannabe” fascism, and perhaps prevent the real thing.

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For full interviews and supporting links visit majority.fm.

Transcript

[Sam Seder]

Hey folks, I hope you're here because you like deep, thoughtful political and progressive analysis. Well, if you do, you're also going to love the print or online version of Current affairs magazine. Current affairs combines intelligent commentary, biting political satire and gorgeous artwork to produce one of the country's most elegant and informative magazines. And it is all ad free. Current affairs is a great compliment to the work we do here. In fact, some of the work we do here is just from stuff that we've read from Current affairs, frankly. And of course Nathan Robinson has been a frequent guest on this program. They provide you hard hitting, totally independent, entertaining, insightful coverage of the world of politics of I mean, I'm looking at the current affairs right now. Stories about, you know, how machines are never going to be sentient like animals, or what Israel is doing with the flotilla. A story on what's happening with the Riyadh Comedy Festival. On and on and on. Great stuff. And now use the code majority report. One word. You'll get 30% off for a year on any subscription of your choice. Go to current affairs.org subscribe enter the code Majority Report at checkout. The offer expires October 31st. Now time for this show, the Majority Report with Sam Cedar. It is Tuesday, September 30th, 2025. My name is Sam Seder. This is the five time award winning Majority Report. We are broadcasting live steps from the industrially ravaged Gowanus Canal in the heartland of America, downtown Brooklyn, usa. On the program today, Federico Finkelstein, an Argentine historian and chair of the History department at the New School for Social Research. Also director of the Janney Program in Latin American Studies. On our Bellingay out of Javier Millay. Also on the program today, government slated to completely shut down in almost exactly 12 hours from now. Or at least it's going to be an explicit shutdown as opposed to the one we've been living through. Also, Hegseth's military gathering happens in D.C. amid reports that he is acting increasingly erratic. Netanyahu already planning to break the supposed peace deal he says he agrees with.

[Matt]

Oh, so like the last time in January, the exact same thing and probably.

[Sam Seder]

The two times before that, I would say. YouTube pays $24 million in tribute to Donald Trump. Meanwhile, the Trump regime deports a plane loan of Iranian asylum seekers back to Iran. Conservative eyebrows are raised as J.D. vance and Donald Trump Jr. Move to control TPUSA. 154,000 federal workers officially take their buyouts this week and the Trump regime defends government, I should say defunds the government inspector general organization. All this and more on today's Majority Report. Welcome, ladies and gentlemen. Thanks so much for joining us.

[Matt]

It is News Day Tuesday.

[Sam Seder]

Yes. And there's obviously some big news. We've been seeing this coming for a while. Chuck Schumer has been desperate to float all sorts of different ideas on how to avoid a government shutdown. And I should say those ideas are really how to cave to a Trump and Republican demand on not just the budget, but also the way that they're governing. And for the most part, I think a lot of people in the House are really burned from the last time that Schumer caved on them at the last minute. And so they're, because they kept the caucus together.

[Matt]

I mean, they all voted against in unison in the spring. So, yeah, there you go.

[Hakeem Jeffries]

The heat is on them when they do this.

[Sam Seder]

That's right. And so here we are. I mean, like I say, you know, Chuck Schumer, it's hard to imagine a Senate leader less up to the moment than Chuck Schumer. The last Senate leader we had was Harry Reid. Harry Reid would come off as rather genteel, like a, like an infirm old man. And he was hiding a knife under his coat pocket. I did not agree with a lot of his. Well, I shouldn't say that. There were, there were some positions he had that I did not agree with. He was personally so called pro life, but never pushed that in his position as a senator. He was a staunch defender of Social Security and Medicare, wanted to increase those. And he was a very aggressive fighter. He was undercut. There was a story, I think it's in actually one of Ryan Grimm's books about how he was undercut during the Obama years by Joe Biden when he was trying to go hard at the Republicans. Chuck Schumer, on the other hand, both appears soft on the outside and is even softer on the inside when it comes to aggressively confronting this moment. And he can barely do it. Here is a prime example. He walks out of the White House today and this is what he says in his press conference. I should say this is, this was yesterday. I play this, they come out of the White House. Of course, he's projecting nothing but strength as he approaches. He's not sure where he is.

[Matt]

Some sexy music here, right?

[Hakeem Jeffries]

Okay. Well, we met with the president for the first time since all of these issues started.

[Sam Seder]

Pause it for a second. Now understand this moment here is one of the few that it's guaranteed he's going to get TV time. It's not always. You know, like a lot of people, a lot of us assume, like, where are these people? How come there's no, you know, why aren't they out there doing politics? It's because the media doesn't necessarily cover them and doesn't get that much play. When you walk out of the White House 24 hours before a government shutdown, you know you're going to get it. So understand, to the extent that any of the American public sees anything, they're going to see this. And he comes out and the first thing he says is, we haven't. I mean, forget the fact that he's lost, okay? We are weak, he says, and we haven't been able to get in to see the president. The president allowed us to come and talk to him. That's, that's the subtext of what he's saying here. But go ahead, because, listen, the American public doesn't care that you're whining, that you're getting bullied by a bully. That does not give them confidence that you know what you're doing. Good.

[Hakeem Jeffries]

Okay. Well, we met with the President for the first time since all of these issues started, even though we requested repeated meetings with leaders, Leader Thune, Speaker Johnson and the President, we have very large differences on health care and on their ability to undo whatever budget we agree to through rescissions and through impoundment as.

[Sam Seder]

Well as, okay, go ask your mom or your friend if they know what impoundment and rescissions mean. You do, cuz you hear us talk about it all the time. But if you went out and had a beer with one of your friends and said, like the impoundment law from 74 and rescissions, people would look at you like they look at me.

[Matt]

How about you have no friends, Right? But, but, but you could say the. We have not. We have deep disagreements. The, the White House is trying right now to undercut the core power of Congress right now the ability to craft a budget. He is refusing to move on that very point even. I mean, Trump has been good at this part, which is that maybe you say something in private in the midst of your negotiations, but use the bully pulpit to aggressively advocate for your stance.

[Sam Seder]

Of course, you come out and you say, one of the problems we've had making a deal is that Donald Trump doesn't follow the rules and he's breaking things for the American people and we want him to stop. Right. Like this should be about. The Democrats are saying, like, he's doing bad things to Americans. We want him to Stop. And that's why we're making demands. Go ahead.

[Hakeem Jeffries]

On health care and on their ability to undo whatever budget we agree to through rescissions and through impoundment as well as pocket rescissions. And we. I think for the first time, the President heard our objections and heard why we needed a bipartisan. Bipartisan bill.

[Sam Seder]

Stop it. Okay, so the president was very reasonable. He listened to us. And I really think I'm getting through to him. That's what's going on here. Instead of, like, saying something like, I don't know if the President understands what he's doing to the American public, but it's quite clear that he's doing damage, how about.

[Matt]

How about that. How about point out that he's dementia dawn and he's tweeting out AI videos or something like that?

[Sam Seder]

Well, this is what Donald Trump posted two hours after they walk out of there. He heard them. I guess he did. Maybe he thought they made progress, what he put out.

[Matt]

Yep.

[Hakeem Jeffries]

Look, guys, there's no way to sugarcoat it. Nobody likes Democrats anymore. We have no voters left because of all of our woke trans. Not even black people want to vote for us anymore. Even Latinos hate us. So we need new voters. And if we give all these illegal aliens free health care, we might be able to get them on our side so they can vote for us. They can't even speak English, so they won't realize we're just a bunch of woke pieces of shit, you know, at least for a while, until they learn English and they realize they hate us, too.

[Sam Seder]

Okay, so aside from the blatant racism, I mean, aside from all the lies, aside from the fact that it's a. He's basically saying, you're my bitches. Look at. This is how much I have respect for you. I appreciate you saying that I listened and that I was polite and that this. That I treated you well, and here you are my bitches. That is what he's saying. I mock you. I laugh in your face. I mean, this is what happens when you show this level of weakness. This is what happens when you assume that the fight is not something that you need to take to the American public, but it's something you need to show Joe Scarborough that you're being responsible. You need to show Ezra Klein that you're taking this seriously.

[Matt]

You need to show your donors. Because the problem here is that Schumer's and Jeffries, of course, are beholden to donors, and the donors are panicked about the government shutdown. When the government shuts down, the stock market collapses. And that is primarily what they're concerned about. It's what he was concerned about in the spring and it's what he's concerned about here. And of course, the Beltway opinions.

[Sam Seder]

This is just bad politics. He's doing bad politics. And then, you know, Hakeem Jeffries was marginally better because he actually talked about what the issues were. Schumer's just here, like desperate to, I mean, I don't play the original one back to the press conference. Yeah, good. Just play it a little more.

[Hakeem Jeffries]

That's not one iota of Democratic input. That is never how we've done this before. When I was leader, we negotiated procedure.

[Sam Seder]

Four times, procedure, procedure with Republicans and we never had a shutdown procedure.

[Hakeem Jeffries]

And so it's up to the Republicans whether they want to shut down or not. We've made to the President some proposals. Our Republican leaders will have to talk to them about them. But ultimately he's the decision maker.

[Matt]

And if he has all the power.

[Hakeem Jeffries]

Except some of the things we asked, which we think the American people are for, on health care and on rescissions, he can avoid a shit.

[Sam Seder]

See, this is all like, like, it's all like third party stuff. We think the American public is for this. We asked for some things on health care. How about just being explicit with the American public? If Donald Trump, if Donald Trump is not willing to make any changes on behalf of the American public, your health insurance rates are going to go sky high. Donald Trump is not willing to guarantee that the money we appropriate, keeping your kids safe when they eat food, to protecting workers in their, in their place of work, to protecting consumers. And all this stuff about tariffs making all the inflation. We've asked him, you know, we'll, we'll work with you, but you need to help. These tariffs are killing the American public. And let's be clear. There's nothing about this government budget that has to do with tariffs. But there's also nothing about this budget that has to do with immigrants or Trump so called illegals getting health care or Hakeem Jeffries wearing a sombrero and Mexican music and Chuck Schumer saying this. Chuck Schumer does not understand where he is or what time is it or what year it is or what's going on. He has been oblivious to the reality that we are all existing in. And it is fascinating to watch it. He is literally in some type of like parallel universe, right? Talking to people who don't exist, who are not paying attention. It is just, well, but how about.

[Matt]

How about if you're not going to fund Americans health care, if you're not going to promise that you're going to claw back money, which is Congress's authority to create a budget for the American public, we are not going to fund and we shouldn't be funding. Although he undercuts his argument by having voted for the budget previously, the ICE agents that are terrorizing your communities, they're still afraid to talk about the major domestic issue that people are experiencing all across the country of thugs going in and beating people up and breaking communities apart. Do they even have a demand on that front?

[Sam Seder]

And the idea that this has nothing to do with the budget. Tell me anything that is coming from the Vice President, the President and every other member of this administration has anything to do with the budget. I mean, they understand when you have the microphone, you deliver a political message. The Democrats cannot do that because Chuck Schumer has studiously avoided having any political message that is their stated agenda.

[Matt]

Lay in the grass, fall asleep in the grass until the midterms, because that's all that matters. Right? And whatever damage he does in the meantime is, is, I guess just gravy for their hopeful electoral chances where they can squeak out a victory with, you know, some APAC funded candidate. Can we just play that Jefferies response really quickly while we're here?

[Sam Seder]

And so they walk out and this AI video is put out. And how does Jefferies respond? Does he talk about the virulent racism, the demonizing of immigrants, the what is being done to the American public? And Mr. President, the next time you have something to say about me.

[Federico Finkelstein]

Don'T.

[Sam Seder]

Cop out through a racist and fake AI video when I'm back in the Oval Office. Say it to my face.

[Caller/Guest]

Say it to my face.

[Sam Seder]

Well, I mean, I'm glad that Hakeem Jeffries protected his own sort of like manhood here. But notice what's going on in the rest of the country. And I'm also glad that Hakeem Jeffries didn't say, well, God will sort it out. Wasn't that his thing?

[Matt]

God's always.

[Sam Seder]

Presidents come and go, but God's always here.

[Matt]

I would have put the over under of me and eyes in a 30 second clip there at four and a half and he went under at four. So it is liberals. Part of why liberals are incapable of meeting this moment is because they don't have a politics versus leftist that are collectivists. And I am so sick, so sick of the centering of one's own celebrity and frankly, Kamala Harris has been engaging in this. It's been since the Obama years that we've been doing this kind of crap. The like celebrity Democrat is not liberal Democrat is not meeting the moment here where you place the focus on yourself. The way that Zoram Mamdani brings it consistently back to what he wants to do for New Yorkers and what the collective and people in the community are facing is exactly what the message should be. But you have this class of elite Democrats that get go into rooms and people are impressed when they'll speak about themselves and that them as a figurehead and they'll make money that way and how they're gonna represent those donors interests in that kind of thing. But it is rings so hollow. No one cares about Hakeem Jeffries and himself experiencing a racist meme. The implication of the racist meme is what we should be talking about and the fascist administration. Why are you making it about yourself in that moment? It is astounding. It's.

[Sam Seder]

I mean, yeah, honestly, the you broken the most confident. The most confident thing to say at that point is I don't care what the President says about me. There are Americans suffering and he's out there making, sitting in the White House, making AI videos, trying to mock me because I'm supposedly Mexican. I mean, the opportunity available to demonize Donald Trump in that moment rather than just say, hey tough guy, I'm here. You know what, if you're so tough, how about you don't even say anything to us and you go back to the White House and knock on the door and say, come say this to my face. Like if you're really tough. Like, like people see through this.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Sam Seder]

And you use the opportunity to, to show the American public that you are protecting them, not defending yourself.

[Matt]

And just before we go, just quickly, number one, that Adam Carlson, good follow on Twitter for some polling stuff. Just this is the aggregate of who would get blamed for a government shutdown. And each of the six publicly released national polls asking voters Republicans get more of the blame. The average is 15 points. Now you will hear in the pundit class that the opposition party is the one that gets blamed or harmed in the midterms coming up. If they help shut down the government, that is a lie that they are deploying because it's completely counterfactual. The last government shutdown, that was the longest in history, Biden won after that, that was at the end of 2018, going into 2019, Biden won in the fall, the short one. Previously there was a blue wave in the midterms, the one Under Obama in 2013, the Republicans took back the Senate and there's this is not saying it's a causal relationship, but the fact that the idea that it hurts Democrats chances is a fiction and they're using it as a fig leaf to cover up the fact that they don't want to do anything because their donors are afraid of the stock market.

[Sam Seder]

All right, in a moment we're going to be talking to Federico Finkelstein. He is an Argentine historian, chair of the history department at the New School for Social Research, and director of the Janey Program in Latin American Studies. On the bailout that we're going to be doing of Javier Millay and why but first, a word from our sponsors. I don't know if people have noticed, but I'm getting a little older and as I get older I'm always thinking I should go to the doctor more, deal with all sorts of things. Like when I get, you know, a malady, I go. However, it can be very difficult to find a doctor, but if you want to keep yourself healthy, the best way to do that find a doctor. And if you can't find a doctor and it's sometimes very hard to do, let me recommend zocdoc. They make it easy to find the right fit and book an appointment fast and directly on their website. ZocDoc is a free app and website where you can search and compare high quality in network doctors and click to instantly book an appointment. Zocdoc lets you book in network appointments with more than 100,000 doctors across every specialty. You can filter for doctors who are near you, take your insurance and are a good fit for you. You can find the type of care you're looking for. Doesn't matter whether it's, you know, good side, best bedside manner or to fast wait times. You know doctors with good listening skills. You can see all of the rankings and reviews. You can see their actual appointment openings so you don't have to go back and forth. You choose a time slot that works for you, you click and you instantly book the visit. Appointments made through ZOCDOC also happen fast, typically within 24 to 72 hours of booking. You can even get same day appointments. I have used ZocDoc on multiple occasions, particularly when I'm traveling because I've had a doctor in New York for like pre Internet days but I found my.

[Matt]

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[Sam Seder]

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[Sam Seder]

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[Matt]

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[Matt]

Yeah.

[Sam Seder]

And of course Sunset like a sub a day. All of their sub a day is they don't use any pesticides. They they do integrated pest management and regenerative farming. Just a great Sabade supplier and their coffee is really a treat. Head over to sunsetlakesabade.com use our code left is best to save 20% on farmers roast coffee and all their Vermont grown hemp products. See their site for terms and conditions. Okay, quick break. When we come back, Federico Finkelstein will be here. Argentine historian, chair of the history department at the New School for Social Research. It we are back. Sam Cedar, Emma Viglund on the Majority Report want to welcome Federico Finkelstein is an Argentine historian, chair of the History department at the New School for Social Research and director of the Janney Program in Latin American Studies and professor. We were saying Just before we came on that, I think the, the last time we spoke was about five years ago, and it was about one of your books you've written, I feel like a half a dozen books on fascism. And he said it's, it's still in vogue apparently these days, maybe perhaps even more relevant. But let's, let's turn specifically to the relationship between the United States and Argentina and tell us just if you can go backwards a little bit and tell us what Javier Milei has been doing since coming to power, aside from giving Elon Musk a ceremonial chainsaw for Musk to tear up our government.

[Federico Finkelstein]

Yes, well, I mean, all these things are connected because Milei is one of the latest representatives of the wannabe fascist trend that Trump represents globally. And Milei actually has been an admirer, if not an imitator of Trump on so many levels. I have often called him a mini Trump in the sense that he wants to behave like, like his master in a way, and yet he cannot for a variety of reasons, including the fact that Argentina is not as powerful as the US Is.

[Sam Seder]

And let's talk about what his economic plans that he put. I mean, this is. He's a like, straight out of Mont Pelerin type of libertarian ideologue.

[Federico Finkelstein]

Yes. I mean, he claims to be a libertarian, and yet in terms of the economic front, his policies seem to be a kind of very standard austerity measure kind of government. I mean, he has been, rather than, I mean, the freedom part of libertarianism, whatever that is, has been absent from Milei's economics, you know, in terms of a lot of controls for currency control and many other things that, of course, together with austerity measures, as we have seen here in the US and so.

[Sam Seder]

What can you tell us about this bailout like, he has already received? I mean, I feel like as late as June in this country, I was seeing people sort of trumpet his economic policies as being sort of like the triumph of free market, you know, neoliberal economic policies. And within weeks after that, he was getting a bailout of sorts from, I believe it was the IMF and the US and now we're primed to provide $20 billion in swaps, which is essentially just like a backstop.

[Federico Finkelstein]

Yes, it is very strange when one think about it. I mean, from the position of the U.S. a government that has been, that had made a point of not helping the war, cutting USA and so on, why helping this kind of mini Trump? So that's the first part of the answer. The first part of the answer is that ideologically these individuals are pretty much connected. Now, on the other hand, Trump and his policies are very US centered. And even if they are allies generally, one should not presuppose that the US Will support a given ally in a country like Argentina. And yet this is what we are seeing. The context of that is that although these policies have been celebrated, poverty had increased, incredible levels of poverty and income inequality. And all that coupled with the kind of typical Trumpist policies of hatred, I mean, homophobia, misogynist, attacking the universities and so on, unlike the U.S. i mean, in Argentina, people, when people demonstrate in the street, I mean the kind of the government receives a message so they are not waiting for elections. And twice in the last year, Milei, for example, said an awful homophobic comment and hundreds of thousands of Argentines protested in the streets. He kind of stopped on that one. More recently, he started a la Trump attacking universities and hundreds of thousands of people in all Argentine cities. Kind of gave the message that this was not okay. And on top of that, one month ago, there were provincial elections in the most important state, the California of Argentina, if you will. I will even say California plus Texas of Argentina. And he lost, like, as Trump would say, big league. And that meant that basically he's approaching the midterm elections, which are very soon in very high straits. And in that context, Trump somehow imposing himself in the campaign, trying to show that the US Support this model. Now, my own guess is that beyond ideological connections and affinities, the very fact that Milei has made Argentina into one of the most. Yes, sir. Allies of the US Both in every sense that the US Is promoting, and that also, you know, is important for Trump to have a yes, sir, like in one big country in the world, which is Argentina.

[Sam Seder]

What about US Based bondholders who have interests in Argentina for whom these type of bailouts actually, like, it's a backdoor bailout of U. S. Based individuals. There's been some reporting that there's a US Billionaire that has important holdings there. And that when we are basically backstopping these Argentinian bonds where we're doing a bailout maybe for some of Trump's donors or friends or whatnot.

[Federico Finkelstein]

Yes, I will not discount that possibility. And obviously we, we saw a picture of a picture that is to say, you know, Mr. Besant reading a message from, I mean, from a member of his own government telling him that this is not good for US farmers. So my point is like, this will be, if that is the case, a typical example of Trump choosing financial interests over the Interest of, in this case, his own voters or many of his own voters.

[Matt]

How does cryptocurrency fit into this, given Javier Milei's obsession with crypto, personal investments in it? I mean, I would not be shocked if there are some shared business interests that we're not even fully abreast of in that particular area.

[Federico Finkelstein]

I will not be shocked. I mean, I share with you the lack of surprise or potential surprise, because, I mean, what happened is, I mean, and this is a key reason why Milei lost, I would say that lost this provincial elections and maybe the next elections. Trump kind of confused this electoral cycle because when he met with Milei in the un, he kind of said that he supported Milei's presidential bid, which is going to happen if it happens a few years from now. But the point is that basically there was a big, I would say, I don't know if to say corruption scandal, but big suspicions of corruption when Milei, when he was the president, promoted in a tweet, it was called then a tweet, a kind of crypto pyramid.

[Matt]

Is that the Libra one?

[Federico Finkelstein]

Yes, yes, yes. And also there are signs, I mean, there were internal communications, there was I think a half a million dollar transfer after some communication with, with people close to Milei and so on and so forth. And in addition to that, his sister, who is basically, he called his sister the boss. And this is the person basically running many aspects of Milei's government, more than a kind of cabinet chief or something like that. The sister somehow was also people very close to Milei talking an audio about how she was receiving 2% of different contributions and so on. So I mean, the point is that this is the anti politics message that Milei promoted and in a way was a big element in him coming to power. And many people, even voters, you know, people that voted for him, were really disappointed that this was just another example of government corruption as it has been the case across the aisle in Argentina. So I mean, this kind of anti politics message, you know, met with reality and the realities of a really typical politician who is very extreme, who represents Trumpism in Argentina, and no more than that.

[Matt]

I just also want to say that his sister and his relationship is extremely weird and he had to come out many times to say that they were not in a romantic relationship, which feels like you have to say it. I mean, there's some weirdness going on there. But like, I mean, the crypto and the state merging, I think is something that we need to be on the lookout here in the United States. I mean, it's already happening. But, like, how Milei paired that with his austerity agenda is, I think, important to understand because, you know, when Elon Musk was running Doge, he went out at CPAC with Milei, and Milei handed him the chainsaw, metaphorically handing over this agenda to the Trump administration and to Elon Musk. And so, like, I'm just wondering if you could give more detail on that, the crypto piece of that and fitting in with the deregulation and the destruction of the state capacity in Argentina.

[Federico Finkelstein]

Well, as you know, cryptocurrencies are great for avoiding, you know, avoiding any type of control. And historically, also, they have been linked to crime and corruption. So this is something that, you know, from Argentina looks also very suspicious in the U.S. i think, you know, the fact that apparently, or people have said that there was perhaps a payment for the tweet, but we are talking about pennies vis a vis the increase in billions of the presidential fortune in the US So the point is, this is interesting because we are looking not only at a kind of political style, which in my view is one of the fascists, and it wants to leave behind key democratic controls and procedures on one hand and a kind of global corruption on the other, which might be supported or not by cryptocurrency. Again, it's very hard to know. And I guess either justice investigators in a perfect world or historians of the future will deal with this. At this point, we don't know much, but I think it's important to think about these links.

[Sam Seder]

I want to just broaden out just a little bit. Because you refer to Milei as a wannabe fascist, what's the part that makes him wannabe as opposed to fascist? And what can we learn from that in this country? To help Trump be more wannabe in that sense?

[Federico Finkelstein]

Yes, I think that's the key point. Because, you know, being a wannabe fascist doesn't mean arriving at the fascist at the fascist point often, because societies react either by voting, by protesting, and also by asking for their own institutions to do and to play their role. I mean, like today we are seeing requests, I mean, Trump's request for the military to participate in internal politics, including by mere acts of repression. And the question is, like, what happens in a democracy when people, including the military, do not follow the Constitution and they follow they wanna be fascist? I mean, fascism happens now many times. It doesn't happen because of things such as the ones we are doing right now, which is asking questions about power and Being critical regarding what may be going on now in Brazil, which is our neighbor. I mean, sorry, you asked me about Argentina. I would like to start with Brazil in Brazil, which is our neighbor in Argentina. And they had a similar kind of mini Trump, which was former President Bolsonaro. He also imitated Trump. One year later he lost elections and he attempted a coup d'. Etat. And the difference between Brazil and the US is that Bolsonaro has been put on trial and he now has been. He's a criminal and he has been convicted of those crimes of attempting to a coup d'. Etat. Now the question is about Argentina and the US In Argentina they have seen Brazil, in the US they don't seem to care. Or even worse, Trump is punishing Brazil for the separation of powers in their own democracy. All these things are interconnected. And I think the question goes in Argentina, it relates to a warning from Brazil, but also a kind of message from the US that everything goes. That everything goes. That there can be incredible amounts of enrichment by those in power, incredible amounts of unconstitutional acts every single day and nothing happens. So this is very much in the open. And here the US has an incredible role to play in either sending a democratic message or an anti democratic one.

[Sam Seder]

I mean, I know it goes that way, right? What does history show us about the relationship between a fascist or would be fascist leader and the. Not only the disposition but the material context of the population at large? So, you know, following World War I, Germany was in a pretty dark place, particularly following the Treaty of Versailles. And they were put in a position where they were. There was like sort of broad national humiliation and material deprivation. I get like, you know, there's two parts of that relationship, right? There's the fascist and the fasci, I guess. And what in a more modern context where you have, I think like we definitely have a bunch of different strains of, of complaints by the American public that range from material deprivation to large segments feeling like they've lost social. They've had like, you know, social deprivation loss like no longer having a certain privilege. We're having to compete across a broader set of people, be they women, be they black or brown. What do we know about where the public sits in our context in the US and what works from a fascist perspective or wannabe fascist perspective?

[Federico Finkelstein]

Yes, well, fascists, I mean, they sell hatred instead of goods or material improvements. This is the reason why all. More than a century ago, German Social democrats called the proposal of fascism the socialism of the imbeciles. Because basically they don't give you anything but hatred, a sense of superiority and so on. And that goes so far. At some point economic crisis and poverty kicks. And that is the reason why many people lament they have supported this kind of antidemocratic choices. Sometimes that takes time and society suffers. So I cannot be extremely optimistic here. I mean, of course we know that once, I mean this is at least from my position it's clear that people like Trump or Milei are not improving the living conditions of the majorities. So at some point that will kick in. But again, it often takes a lot of time and sometimes we don't have that much time. I mean, you know, the governor of California said like recently by 28, we might, we might not have an election. And I, I'm afraid to say is that the wannabe fascism is, wants to become fascist. And maybe that isn't that will be the case. But it's hard to know and it depends on all of us. I mean, to really make it clear that we don't agree with this.

[Sam Seder]

Well, to what extent can, does social science have a number as to the demand for hate? I mean, if they're selling hatred, right? I mean like everybody likes material improvement, but not everybody is really in the market for hatred to satisfy them, even in a short term basis. Right. And there's obviously close to half, if not half based upon the 2024 election. But I would suspect that there's, you know, there's less than half. But the question is like how much less than half and also how much do you need to sustain it over the course of an extended period of time?

[Federico Finkelstein]

Well, in that, you know, Argentina might be an interesting case to answer the question because we don't have like this kind of anti democratic institutions such as the electoral college. We changed the constitution many years ago because our constitution was very similar to the one in the U.S. but we don't have that anymore. And there were two rounds in the presidential election. In the first round, 30% voted for Milei, I guess among those homophobes and misogynistic people were clearly among those. And then probably another to have the majority, another right wing kind of center right, voted for him in the second round. Now those are easy to peel off in a situation like that in Argentina. And in Argentina we have something that maybe the US didn't have, which is a collection of many dictatorships. And some people remember them. I was born right before one of them and people of my generation remember them. Now the question is people that are younger and they have always lived in Democracy and sometimes they don't realize what they have. And in that context, given another aspect that we need to address, and I'm talking about Argentina, I might be as well talking about the US is that there was a failure in Argentine politics by politicians of the center, the right and the left. I mean, they created conditions which were terrible socially and economically. And that's when Milei appear as a kind of perfect storm like Argentina. And this is different to the US was the country with the highest inflation in the world. On the center left, the economic minister was the candidate. So that was a kind of, in a way easy position for Milei to represent. That is to say that he was against that. He represented the politics. Now, Argentine voters and Argentines in general are very impatient with this. And already they sent a big message like last month. The question is, in the US it might be a little bit different because I think at this point in Argentina it's not that easy to tamper with voters as they are doing in the US with gerrymandering and so on. So the question is, even if you have the votes, how many votes do you need to win an election if they are all the time dealing with this? And this is a question of, you know, I was reading, I wrote an article for the New Republic before the election about the one day dictatorship. And I'm curious, every, you know, 10 days, I go back to the article to see how, let's say, which is a percentage in which Emmanuel Rizoli and myself that we wrote the article, how close we were. I mean, and I think at this point probably 50, 60%. I mean, what, you know, what it takes to have a dictatorship. And we are seeing a lot of that here, a lot in the US in the US and ironically in Argentina, less so, because we might not have in Argentina strong institutions, but in Argentina, the popular, let's say the political culture is that people do not stand by this mix of corruption and lies at this point.

[Sam Seder]

What is it that. I mean, because you said he went after gay people and then hundreds of thousands showed up and, and he went after universities and hundreds of thousands show up and he backs off that because of, you know, it doesn't. You have a limited amount of capital, whether it's with the military or politically, and you don't want to expend that on areas, if you can find a separate one. Is that just a, I mean, a history, I mean, like, you know, several hundred thousand showing up, I would imagine is like, you know, the equivalent of 2 or 3 million in this country showing up about something like mobilizing, you know, relative to population size, you know, is that. Because there is a. And we don't get that really very often in any type of sustained way in this country. You know, the Iraq war maybe, you know, you know, during blm, we had that, I think, was probably the closest we got to it. What is that a function of, in your mind?

[Federico Finkelstein]

Well, I mean, the equivalent will be. Is very symbolic, right? Like it will be as having every now and then the Washington Mall and, you know, I don't know, and the main squares in every city full of people. I mean, that's the message like, that people mobilize in order to give a message to those, you know, to those in power in the U.S. i mean, there is a numbing effect in which, I mean, things that, you know, that are said and done every day should be, you know, should be provoking, you know, people in terms of reactions and prospects.

[Sam Seder]

Donald Trump has doubled his net worth, which means he's made billions in nine months as president. That's a little suspect.

[Federico Finkelstein]

Yes, yes. And even with the history of corruption that we have in Argentina, I don't think this will be acceptable. Voters, you know, express their. Their concern with doing it for less than $1 million.

[Sam Seder]

How much of it is a function of. Is simply a sort of tradition or a history or mistrust of politicians in the political system that may exist in Argentina because there is a sort of like a. A more of a history of having a political turmoil, but also how much of it is like a political leadership that doesn't respond to that. Like. Like I would imagine there are the social structure and fabric of Argentine society. And I don't know this, but I would imagine is sewn together in a way with more traditions of labor power and solidarity in certain areas than perhaps in the United States, at least in the past 100 years or so. But what impact is political leadership have to do in this respect as well?

[Federico Finkelstein]

Well, in Argentina, there is a tradition of being suspicious of politicians across the aisle. And then again, our history of dictatorships, we know, I mean, many of us at least know what dictatorship is. We have lived it, and it involved these kind of connections that we are talking about, like, of course, higher level of repression, but also incredible amounts of corruption and poverty, because the result of that also is poverty. And whenever someone or something resembles the past, then many people are worried that this is just another pattern that we have lived. And I think Milei was given votes because it was a message. There was this Satisfaction with the typical politicians. And people were willing to give a pass to someone who was self described as crazy. I mean, in terms of what is interesting, is that in terms of practice, Trump is way more, I would say, radical than Milei. In terms of speech, Milei is way more radical than Trump. I mean, he's even more vulgar. He basically, Trump, when compared to Milei, looks like a stable individual. I mean, which is to say a lot. I mean, Emma, when you were talking about the possibilities, I mean, the rumors, basically, and who, in a way, like, about Milei being involved with his sister, his response as president of Argentina was, I will quote, I don't f my sister. I mean, this is the level of Milei's engagement with the public. He has also, he's using all the time these kind of metaphors of violence and even rape towards others. But the sad part of it, I think, and this is related to what Sam was saying before, is that, I mean, about this, many people did not seem to care. I do. Many others do. But a lot of people did not seem to care about the hatred or in this country, the racism. And a philosopher, like a very famous radical philosopher, Theodor Adorno, said that when he was after the Holocaust and so on in the 1960s, he was surprised about the resurrection of the German right. And he said that people like us, we care a lot about rights, but many people do not care about that. And the message they get is when economic conditions provoke more poverty, and that's when they realize what's going on. And sadly, many people will see that part, not the parts about rights, in my view. The two are together. They go together. They are part of an ideological project which is, as I have called it, wanna be fascism.

[Sam Seder]

Well, Federico Finkelstein, we will link to your books, one of which is Wannabe Fascist at Majority fm. Thanks so much for your time today. Really appreciate it.

[Federico Finkelstein]

Thank you.

[Matt]

Thank you.

[Sam Seder]

All right, folks, we're gonna take a quick break. Head into the fun half. Have more fun.

[Hakeem Jeffries]

The heat is on them when they do this.

[Sam Seder]

Yep. Feeling the pressure.

[Matt]

He's just trying to speak it into existence.

[Sam Seder]

Just a reminder, it's your support that makes this show possible. You can become a member. Join the MajorityReport.com when you do, you not only get the free show free of commercials, but you also get the fun half. And most importantly, almost. The exclusive important thing is that you help this show survive and thrive. Become a member today. Join the MajorityReport.com Also check out the AM Quickie AM Quikie.com every day email blast in your mailbox. Well, three days a week for free. Corey Whitney, do a great job. Whitney's tearing it up for the American Prospect right now as well. So check out their daily roundup of the news. That is important to you.

[Matt]

It's really important for me in terms of preparing for the show. I always check it to see if I miss anything. And I've gotten some, you know, family to subscribe and they're loving it too because they don't have to like, you know, check all these different papers. It's, it's great.

[Sam Seder]

Yep. Also just coffee, co op, fairtrade coffee, hot chocolate. Use the coupon code. Majority get 10% off as always. Give us a review on itunes if you can go back in time and, and leave it there. Or in the podcast app that you use.

[Matt]

Or Apple podcasts.

[Sam Seder]

Well, people use different podcast apps.

[Emma Viglund]

Yes, they had a George Bush for us.

[Sam Seder]

Yes, exactly. And, or if you're on Twitch, give us your subscription for the month. If you're a prime member, then you already have paid for it. You can just direct it towards us, et cetera, et cetera. Matt Left Reckoning.

[Emma Viglund]

Left Reckoning Tonight, talking with Gil Duran about Peter Thiel's Antichrist tour. Also, if you're not subscribed to the left reckoning on YouTube, I plug it every day. But anyway, now you can, you jerks.

[Sam Seder]

But you know, what's wrong with you?

[Emma Viglund]

Today's a great day to, you know, finally after five hit subscribe on that.

[Federico Finkelstein]

Yeah, shaming them.

[Sam Seder]

Subscribing. It's a subscriber shamer.

[Emma Viglund]

We are 558 subscribers shy of 50,000. So I'd like to hit that and, you know, redeem yourself a little bit. So check out tonight.

[Sam Seder]

Grow up.

[Emma Viglund]

7 o' clock Eastern Time. Patreon.com left reckon we're going to get into Ezra Klein's identity crisis, which I think we're gonna be talking about on here too, but.

[Matt]

Oh my God. Yeah, so that's what I was going to say when you were like the so called fun half. I'm like, well, we'll make fun of Ezra Klein kind of getting clowned by Ta Nehisi Coates. But listening to him is not fun. What?

[Sam Seder]

Harry Emden.

[Matt]

I'm done trying to like Ezra Klein. Basically.

[Emma Viglund]

I feel sorry for him.

[Sam Seder]

Again, A lot of people feel, oh.

[Matt]

I do not feel sorry for him. I'm sure he's fine, folks.

[Sam Seder]

We'll see in the fun house. You are in for it. All right, folks, 646-2573, 9, 2 0. See you in the fun. Are you ready? Who sent us this?

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[Sam Seder]

As you could imagine the alpha males.

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[Sam Seder]

I take all of it to my.

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[Sam Seder]

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[Sam Seder]

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[Sam Seder]

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[Federico Finkelstein]

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[Sam Seder]

Yeah, or a couple of them. Just put them in rotation.

[Federico Finkelstein]

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[Emma Viglund]

Well, the problem with those is they're like 45 seconds long, so I don't know if they're enough of a break.

[Sam Seder]

That's nonsense. See, white people doing drugs that look worse than normal white people.

[Caller/Guest]

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[Sam Seder]

Snowflake says, what? What? What? What? What? What? What? What? What? What? What? What? What? What? What? Snowflake says, what.

[Caller/Guest]

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[Sam Seder]

Have you tried doing an impression on a college campus?

[Caller/Guest]

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[Sam Seder]

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[Sam Seder]

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