3595 - Shut Down; Authoritarian Rise; Ezra's Decline w/ Jamaal Bowman

Summary

The Majority Report with Sam Seder
Episode 3595 – Shut Down; Authoritarian Rise; Ezra’s Decline w/ Jamaal Bowman
Date: October 3, 2025

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EPISODE OVERVIEW

This episode of The Majority Report with Sam Seder focuses on the ongoing government shutdown in the United States, the increasing authoritarianism under Trump’s administration—particularly through policies like Project 2025 and aggressive ICE actions—and the ideological and strategic fractures within the Democratic Party. Special guest Jamaal Bowman, former U.S. Representative from New York, joins in-studio to provide on-the-ground insight into these challenges, the impact on minority and immigrant communities, and strategies for progressive organizing and political change. The show features a nuanced critique of both Republican and Democratic actions and closes with a wider reflection on political leadership, activism, and media influence.

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KEY DISCUSSION POINTS AND INSIGHTS

1. Government Shutdown & Project 2025 (05:05 – 13:00)

• Context: The federal government is in its third day of shutdown. Russell Vought, former Trump OMB director and architect of Project 2025, is executing drastic cuts targeting blue states, eliminating billions in appropriated funds and freezing infrastructure projects.

• Trump & Project 2025: Despite his denials, Trump’s administration is enacting the playbook developed by conservative institutions and led by Vought, cutting funds to blue states and punishing political opposition.

• Legal Overreach: Sam Seder repeatedly emphasizes the illegality of withholding or rescinding funds appropriated by Congress, referencing the constitutional principles behind congressional power of the purse.

  “There is nothing Russ Vought can do legally to make any cuts that are permanent any more than he could have a week ago.” (09:45, Sam Seder)

• Democratic Caution: Democrats, according to Seder and a reported Greg Sargent interview with Senator Murphy, are wary of sounding ‘alarmist’ about authoritarian tactics, fearing voter demoralization and referencing the failed 2024 ‘democracy’ focused campaign.

• Call to Action: Listeners are encouraged to thank their senators for rejecting Trump’s agenda and to stay vigilant.

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2. ICE Raids and Authoritarian Policing (19:45 – 38:00)

Chicago ICE Raid

• Details: Federal agents, assisted by FBI and ATF, used Blackhawk helicopters and flashbangs to raid an apartment building in a predominantly working-class, immigrant neighborhood. Dozens were detained, including U.S. citizens, with reports of racial profiling, property destruction, and traumatization of families.

• Resident Testimony:

  “They just treated us like we were nothing.” (23:59, eyewitness account)

• Jamaal Bowman Reaction:

  “Authoritarianism is here. We are living through it right now... It can happen in any city, any community at any time.” (30:06, Bowman)

• Patterns of Abuse: Both racial profiling and aggressive tactics typical of local broken windows policing are now federalized, targeting low-income, politically powerless communities.

Broken Windows Policing, Ethnic Cleansing, and Mass Incarceration

• Bowman: Draws parallels between federal ICE tactics, the broken windows policing of local departments, and long-standing systems of Black mass incarceration and economic deprivation.

  “It’s not just the ethnic cleansing of immigrants. It’s the ethnic cleansing of Black American citizens into the prison industrial complex... so they can work as slaves.” (37:48, Bowman)

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3. The Failure of Democratic Leadership and the Need for True Populism (49:31 – 65:38)

Congressional Dysfunction

• Bowman: Describes Congress under GOP control as “a joke,” a theater where most members play roles for re-election rather than honest governance, with special interests and big money dictating the agenda.

  “It’s just heartbreaking because people like me, like Cori [Bush]... go there to really do stuff for people. And so, like, we can’t... we can’t raise the minimum wage?” (51:19, Bowman)

• Schumer, Jeffries, and the Consultant Class: Leadership is criticized for listening more to party strategists and Sunday show studios than to working-class constituents, prioritizing micro-targeting swing voters instead of true turnout strategies.

• The Ezra Klein Critique: Extended conversation on how elite pundits like Klein and Democratic advisers perpetuate status-quo, consultant-driven politics and underestimate grassroots potential.

  “I don’t want Ezra Klein to come to the Bronx to try to persuade people in the Bronx to vote a certain way. That’s the problem.” (58:21, Bowman)

Grassroots Organizing Successes

• Examples: Zoran Mamdani’s record turnout in a New York primary, the ‘Squad’ expanding the electorate in blue districts—proof that turnout, not centrism, can win elections.
• Structural Barriers: Political fundraising systems and special interests—especially AIPAC—create obstacles for true progressives.

  “That money is rarely or barely invested in... growing the electorate.” (62:55, Bowman)

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4. The AIPAC Pipeline & Progressive Pushback (65:38 – 72:00)

• AIPAC Influence: Bowman details its early attempts to recruit him, the financial pipelines from GOP donors into centrist Democrat primaries, and its role in stifling progressive candidates.

  “I was lucky because I came in with Justice Democrats, so I had that education. But there are elected officials… not just congressional, come in [and get recruited].” (67:21, Bowman)

• Shifting Tides: Activism and public awareness (including in Bowman and Cori Bush’s races) are making it toxic for Democrats to accept AIPAC money, exposing the right-wing influence behind their operations.

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5. New York State & Local Politics (72:06 – 81:21)

• Governor Race Dynamics: Discusses Governor Hochul's strategy addressing challenges from the left (including universal child care and free buses) and the influence of Antonio Delgado and Zoran Mamdani on the political landscape.
• Lessons from Past Races: Recalls Cynthia Nixon’s run, the ousting of IDC members, and the long-term paradigm shifting of progressive challenges—even in defeat.

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6. Leadership, Media, and the Rigor of Debate (83:21 – 104:10)

Media Influence and Political Leadership

• Congress and Media: Staffers track podcasts and digital commentary to gauge public sentiment; establishment leadership is locked into responding to old-school cable news cycles.

  “I was surprised at how much... Democratic Caucus followed and responded to mainstream media and allowed that to determine how we responded to X issue.” (84:46, Bowman)

• Generational and Ideological Divide: Younger and more progressive politicians (and digital native activists) are more comfortable with criticism and feedback, in contrast to the older, ossified establishment.

Ezra Klein & Debate Culture

• Reflections on Klein-Coates Debate: The group analyzes Klein’s flawed approach to discussing political actors like Charlie Kirk and the tendency among some liberal pundits to “rise above” the actual emotional and intellectual stakes for marginalized communities.

  “This is what it is to be black in America. Like, we... give you our shit, our pain, our suffering... And you, liberal white man, don’t even acknowledge it.” (97:38, Bowman)

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NOTABLE QUOTES & MEMORABLE MOMENTS

• On Project 2025’s implementation:

  “It was quite obvious. There were a lot of people in the mainstream media would say, well, Donald Trump says he’s not part of Project 2025. I guess we got to believe him." (07:21, Sam Seder)

• On ICE’s militarized tactics:

  “They used flashbang grenades, as we heard in that video… kids were separated from their mothers. Stuff was everywhere. You could see people's birth certificates and papers thrown all over. Water was leaking into the hallway. It was wicked crazy.” (25:03, A/Seder)

• Bowman on Democratic inertia:

  “It’s all just theater. I’m just a character in this effed-up play and I have my role to play as the progressive guy. That’s just what — at least in the House — the Senate may be a little different… You govern maybe for six, nine months, and then you’re running.” (51:20, Bowman)

• On consultant-driven centrism:

  “Ezra Klein is leading that freaking conversation. Like, I don’t want Ezra Klein to come to the Bronx to try to persuade people in the Bronx to vote a certain way. That’s the problem.” (58:16, Bowman)

• On the importance and limits of grassroots politics:

  “The Democratic Party, to me, if it really wants to fight back and save our democracy, you got to target everyone for real. But if you target everyone, you got to say something about Gaza now, if you start—you know what I mean?” (65:38, Bowman)

• On the Democratic establishment’s ideology:

  “I think the ideology of establishment politics is to maintain the establishment and continue to be in support of incrementalism in a way where you’re not going to drastically change the lives or meet the needs of the most vulnerable people in our country.” (89:09, Bowman)

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TIMESTAMPED SEGMENT GUIDE

• 00:02 – 08:34: Show intro, news rundown; Project 2025 and federal overreach
• 08:34 – 13:00: Trump’s Project 2025 denials, Vought’s illegal cuts, Democratic reticence
• 19:45 – 32:07: In-studio with Bowman; ICE raid in Chicago—militarization, resident eyewitness
• 32:07 – 38:11: Policing, broken windows policies, “ethnic cleansing” analogies, Bowman on impacts
• 49:31 – 65:38: Congressional dysfunction, strategic flaws of Democratic leadership, consultant class critique, grassroots organizing
• 65:38 – 72:00: AIPAC’s influence, progressive pushback, fundraising obstacles
• 72:06 – 81:21: New York state/local politics, recent races, lessons from primaries
• 83:21 – 104:10: Podcast/media influence, generational-ideological divide, Ezra Klein/Coates discussion, limitations of elite punditry
• 104:10 – end: Closing remarks, shoutouts, fun half

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FINAL THOUGHTS

This episode is an impassioned dissection of how America’s right wing is weaponizing the federal government for authoritarian social engineering, the failure of Democratic leadership to meet the urgency of the crisis, and the promise and difficulty of building independent, multiracial, working class power. Jamaal Bowman’s perspective is invaluable—grounded in real experience, direct action, and thoughtful critique of both parties’ prevailing strategies. The show balances tragic urgency with humor and the irreverence for which The Majority Report is known, making it both an informative and energizing listen.

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For listeners seeking a step-by-step guide through the current political crises, organizational challenges on the left, and practical strategies for engagement and resistance, this episode is essential.

Transcript

[A]

The Majority Report with Sam Cedar. Where every day casual Friday. That means Monday is casual. Monday, Tuesday, casual. Tuesday, Wednesday casual. Hump day. Thursday casual Thirs. That's what we call it. And Friday, casual Shabbat. Thursday, the Majority Report with Sam Cedar. It is Friday, October 3rd, 2025. My name is Sam Cedar. This is the five time award winning Majority Report. We are broadcasting live steps from the industrially ravaged Gowanus Canal in the heartland of America, Downtown Brooklyn, USA. On the program today, Jamal Bowman, former U.S. representative for New York's 16th congressional district, will be in studio. Whoa. Also on the program today, day three government shutdown. Trump no longer pretending. Project 2025 not the plan. Meanwhile, Russell Vogt, the architect of that plan and Trump's Office of Management and Budget director, in both terms, cancels billions in appropriated funds to blue states. Some Republicans now fearing further government layoffs that will impact their states. ICE attacks a Chicago residential apartment building with helicopters and racial profiling. Israel illegally boards the last of the flotilla ships. Continues its slaughter in Gaza. Dozens killed overnight as Hamas weighs ceasefire proposal. Now amidst Trump's weekend deadline. Supreme Court of the United States will consider overturning Hawaii's law that regulates where guns can be carried. Barry Weiss, off the who's a Palestinian professor beat. And how intelligent Dave Rubin is to be named editor in chief of CBS News. Yep. After threats from the White House, Apple removes ICE tracking apps from its store. Trump, supposedly to send billions to farmers as a bailout from Trump's policies. Cori Bush announces a bid for her former congressional seat. All this and more on today's Majority Report. Welcome, ladies and gentlemen.

[B]

It is Casual Friday.

[A]

Casual Friday. And as you can see, soft collared shirt. You're just sweater.

[C]

It's a new color, too.

[B]

Black sweater.

[A]

Oh, this is actually one I had a while back. But then I'm like, every time I try and buy something that is not specifically on the blue, gray, white color spectrum, I'm like, it's like the Indiana Jones color spectrum. Yep. A little flashy today. I'm not. I'm getting a little flashy wearing the autumn green.

[B]

No, it's tougher. Military green.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

War time.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That's New England warrior. Yeah, it's part of my new warrior ethos.

[B]

Sam's volunteering with ICE after this.

[A]

We do follow a warrior ethos around here.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

Loyalty, duty, respects, selflessness, honor, integrity and pride.

[B]

You say that in your sleep.

[C]

Say it one more time. What is it?

[A]

Loyalty, duty, respect, selflessness, honor, integrity and pride. Leadership, brother. But that doesn't spell warrior. Shouldn't it be like something with a W and then an A and R? No, I think the whole ethos is just a bunch of anachronism.

[B]

No, they replaced the whole thing with don't be fat.

[A]

Everything. Everything I ever learned about the way you should behave is from Gary Busey doing those an acronym things or whatever it is. All right, a couple of things. Let's just get out of the way. I know the Red Sox lost. All right, Wait till next year.

[B]

Shouldn't have been so confident.

[A]

That's what I grew up on and that's what I'll stand by. So I don't need to.

[B]

Should have followed Emma's 1212 step, magical advice, psychotic rules.

[A]

And also, let me just say happy New Year to all the Jews out there in Yom Kippur. Yesterday I fasted. I made it the entire time. Almost passed out. It was for whatever reason, it was a hard fast this year. But now I have been washed of all my sins and all my vows and promises going forward have also been forgiven in advance, as is the plan on Yom Kippur. So let's move right in. In the months leading up to the election, in the months prior to the election, in the months leading up to the inauguration, we were talking quite a bit about Project 2025 and about Russell Vote. We did many, many interviews about Russell Vote. I think even when I headed out to do that jubilee, which was recorded, I want to say, like a week into the Trump administration. Everything I was focusing on at that point was Russell Vogt. He has been working his disaster magic, as it were, over the past eight or nine months. His role was actually slowed by Doge because Doge was just getting in the way and he got a little big footed. But he has now begun to sort of like over the past couple of months, really reassert himself within the administration. And it was all of this to anyone with, without an agenda to pretend that both sides are the same, or anybody who was paying any attention to the way that Republicans operated for decades. Anybody who'd been paying any attention to, like, what folks like Grover Norquist were saying, like, we just need somebody with a pulse to sign this stuff. We have all the plans. Although Norquist, I don't think was necessarily involved in Project 2025. He could have been. It was quite obvious. There was a lot of people in the mainstream media would say, well, Donald Trump says he's not part of Project 2025. I guess we got to believe him.

[B]

And he did. He was repeatedly distancing himself from it, despite all evidence showing that like he had dozens of former staffers working on it. The entire Republican infrastructure behind.

[A]

Who else was it going to be.

[C]

Besides the Heritage foundation also?

[B]

And there were a lot of folks in media who, you know, in the mainstream press in particular that took the most notorious liar at his word or at the very least presented it as a both sides issue. And here we are today and you.

[A]

Know, the young Turks were did an extended riff on how Project 2025 was just hysterics, liberals, etc. Etc. Well, welcome to it. Here is a brief clip here. What, what is this one?

[B]

Oh, this is like a compilation of Trump's denials.

[A]

Yeah, this is a compilation of Trump's denials about it. I have nothing to do with Project 2025 that's out there. I haven't read it.

[C]

I don't want to read it.

[A]

Project 2025 is not affiliated with the Trump campaign. This is a document I know nothing about. It's called Project 25. I don't know what the hell it is. It check 25. He's involved in project. And then they read some of the things and they are extreme. I mean they're seriously extreme. But I don't know anything about it. Yeah, here's Donald Trump's tweet or truth or tweet, whatever it is. I have a meeting today with Russ VOGT. He of Project 2025 famed to determine which of the many Democrat agencies, most of which are a political scam, he recommends to be cut. Whether or not those cuts will be temporary or permanent. I can't believe the radical left Democrats gave me this unprecedented opportunity. They're not stupid people. So maybe this is their way of wanting to quietly and quickly make America great again. President DJT first off, the fact that he's writing this stuff is a perfect example of how either they were actually sort of like feeding this to Chuck Schumer and Chuck Schumer was either believing it or he's sort of like goading Chuck Schumer more. There is nothing that Russ Vote can do legally to make any cuts that are permanent any more than he could have a week ago. A week ago he was still making those cuts and he probably will make them going forward. But none of this has to do with the breakdown, has to do with the fact that either the Supreme Court has refused to uphold things like the 1974 Empowerment act or the Constitution or whatnot, whatever the, whatever authority you want to uphold, that Congress has the ability to appropriate funds, and that the President doesn't have the ability to not spend them if they are appropriated by the Congress. I mean, you grow up as a child. As a child, what is Congress's job? To spend the money. So it's quite obvious everything they're doing is illegal.

[C]

Now.

[A]

Vote has announced the termination of $8 billion in funding for clean energy projects in 16 states, all of which voted for Harris in the 2024 election, all of which I believe are senators who have voted against closing discussion on the motion for the continuing resolution. He has also frozen $18 billion in New York City infrastructure projects, including the tunnel to New Jersey, third tunnel to New Jersey, which is going to come back and bite the Republican in the governor's race. I can't remember his name now. As if his vice, his lieutenant governor.

[B]

Wasn'T doing, oh, in New Jersey.

[A]

Yes, yes, yes, in New Jersey. But all of this is illegal. And it is exactly in part. I mean, they're not talking about it, but it's certainly one of the things supposedly that they're looking for in the bill that they promoted the Democrats, the inability of the President to stop funds from reaching where Congress has said that they should be appropriated and to permanently, like, put Russ Vote in his place. Now, they're not. They're not pushing this at all because I think they're nervous as to why they should. In fact, Murphy from Connecticut was interviewed by Greg Sargent, and he was asked if he privately talks to Democratic colleagues about why they don't sound the alarm loudly, in particular about Russ Vote. But other things in terms of. And Murphy says, yeah, I do. I do bring it up. There's a couple answers, and I'm not the only one talking like this. But I hear a couple things from my Democratic colleagues. One, it's dangerous to be so alarmist that if you say we're not a democracy anymore, and this is a broader thing about Trump's authoritarianism, but certainly withholding funds from blue states that you don't like that have been appropriated by Congress is one of these things that we might not have a free and fair election. For instance, you're actually disincentivizing people from getting involved because it makes them feel hopeless. The second thing I hear about is, well, we ran on democracy in 2024 and we lost. So let's not do democracy. Let's do economics in health care. And Murphy says, I'm totally for a focus on economics. I'm a big believer that Bernie's message, or some version of it, is really the secret sauce. We've got to be a populist economic party, but we'll never be able to raise the minimum wage by $10 if our democracy disappears. So whether or not the polls tell us that everybody in this country believes that democracy is at risk, it is at risk. This is all part of it. And you know, so the only thing is, hey, we'll talk to Congressman Bowman about this more in a bit. But if your senator, well, all of your Democratic senators, short of independent Angus King and Catherine Cortez Mastro and soon to be former senator John Fetterman have voted essentially in favor of the continuing resolution. They have voted to close discussion which opens it up, makes it a 50. 50 or I should say a 51. 50 is all you need for to pass the bill. Call your senators, tell them to stay strong, thank you for rejecting the Trump administration, etc. Etc. You know, right now it's a little bit of a carrot time. The stick is also good simultaneously. Sometimes you can use the carrot as a stick because if it's big enough and rigid. But that's where we stand right now. And it is unclear where we go from here. All right, we're going to take a quick break. Oh, no. We got before we get to Congressman Bowman got a sponsor of for today's show and it's one of my favorite sunset lake saba day.com Right now, a chill is in the air. That means, you know, it's like we're getting towards Halloween, autumn. It's time to decorate your yard with those 12 foot skeletons, watch an unhealthy number of horror movies and stock up on candy for the trick or treaters. But what about a treat for you? No tricks here. Sunsetlakeseba.com has you covered with 30% off all of their Saba Day gummies with the coupon code just treats to five. That's the code, the word just treats and the number two five all no spaces, not one word, but just treats. Two five. Sunset Lakes Vibe gummies provide a gentile a gentle daytime lift with 30mg of Seb a day and a microdose of 1mg THC. If you want something with a little more oomph, check out their Delta 9 gummies, which contain 5 milligrams of Taj say and 50 milligrams of Seb A day. Or if you prefer a Taj say free experience, they got Sour Bear gummies that contain 25 milligrams of SEB a day isolate perfect for any time of the day. They also have, they got focus gummies. Pop one of these sometimes before the show. They got relaxed gummies, they got sleep time gummies, a whole array of sub a day gummies for you to enjoy. And as always, all of their sub a day products are third party tested. They don't use pesticides, they use integrated pest management. They have great farming practices, regenerative farming, great business practices, $20 minimum wage, mostly employee owned and they are big movement partners. They have donated tens of thousands of dollars literally to things like strike relief funds, Planned Parenthood, carceral reform, refugee resettlement, on and on. Just a great company, a great product. I use their solves, their tinctures, their gummies. They're smokables. I use the salve with lidocaine for sol had a little sprain the other day. But right now you can get usually a 20% off with left is best. Right now you get 30% off with the code just treats 25 on all their gummies. Sleep, focus, relaxation, fun time. The sale ends October 8th at 11:59pm Eastern. See their site for terms and conditions. All right, let's take a quick break and should be back with former Congressman Bowman in just a moment. We are back. Sam Cedar on the Majority Report. It is a pleasure to welcome in studio the former Congressman from the 19th, 16th district in New York, Jamal Bowman. Congressman, real pleasure to have you in studio. Very excited to have you.

[C]

It's an honor. Oh yeah, yes, yes. Honor to hang out with you and you know, Emma, who's killing it right now and just destroying everyone out there like that's pretty amazing. Very exciting.

[B]

Appreciate that. Last time I saw you in person, we were masked up at your victory party after the primary, I believe might have been 2020. Yes.

[C]

Wow.

[B]

Yes. That was a really exciting night.

[C]

That was very exciting.

[B]

Yes.

[C]

Very excited. That was a long time ago. Thank you very much. Appreciate that. But you've been giving off like Princess Leia, Star wars energy lately just on the, on the interwebs. You've been killing it.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Appreciate that.

[B]

It's a bit of an addiction. I can't, I can't stop yelling at people or getting into fights.

[C]

But I like what, I like what I'm seeing, man. And it's not just you. Who's, who's the chick from the other, I want to talk about other shows.

[B]

But it's like I've had it.

[C]

Jennifer Welch, I think that's her. Is that the one with, with Chenk? Is that.

[B]

Oh, no, no, no. That I've Had. That's Anna. But I've had it as the, the ladies like that have been.

[C]

Yeah, yeah. It's like white women attack. You know what I'm saying? It's like the chick with Chenk is Emma.

[B]

Y.

[C]

Crystal ball is all. I'm like, yo, y' all need to come together and do like, some, some stuff.

[B]

I, I agree with.

[A]

Call it like her talk.

[B]

You could call.

[C]

Yeah, man. But appreciate you.

[B]

Thanks.

[C]

Absolutely.

[B]

That's high praise.

[A]

All right, let's talk about some. I want to talk. I mean, obviously, like, there's some very broad themes that want to talk to you about. I mean, all of them in one form or another deal with saving not just our, you know, our democracy, you know, to the extent that we have had one, but also making. Trying to improve on it going forward. And these all of the stories that we have this week in one form or another, it seems to me play into that in a way that is almost explicit, you know, like for year. You know, I've been doing this for years, and it has been quite apparent that, like, there has been this sort of a creeping fascism even this week. The failure of, of Democrats or society at large. I'm talking the media, too, to hold the Bush administration responsible for violations of the Hatch Act 20 years ago are coming back to bite us in the ass just this week, it seems. But let's, let's start in Chicago there. These ICE raids have gotten bolder and bolder. They. They were threatening to go into Chicago. And Pritzker, I think, did a very good job of basically, at the very least, posturing in a way that we're not going to roll over for this. And at one point, there were. There were reports that the Texas National Guard was starting to stage outside of Illinois. And Pritzker said, you're going to meet the National Guard from Illinois and we'll see what happens. They seem to have backed down, but ICE still feels like that they are trying to prove that they can do this stuff. Regardless of what mayors say, what governors say. This raid is, I think, probably one of the boldest that ICE has done to date. They used supposedly, supposedly Blackhawk helicopters to drop in on the roof of an apartment building in Chicago. They supposedly had FBI and dea. This is a big apartment building in Chicago. They ended up arresting 37 people. We don't know anything about these people, but listen to this report from Eyewitness News, ABC in Chicago.

[D]

I spoke to one woman who actually lives in this building, and she says she was detained by ICE agents overnight and she says they took everyone and then asked questions. Later.

[C]

They just treated us like we were nothing.

[D]

Produce Fisher said she came out to the hallway of her apartment complex on the corner of 75th and South Shore Drive in her nightgown around 10 Monday night only to find ICE agents yelling police.

[A]

It was scary because I've never had.

[C]

A gun put in my face. They asked my name and my date.

[A]

Of birth and asked me did I have any warrants and I told them no, I didn't, she said.

[D]

She was then handcuffed and released around 3am Fisher says she was told if anyone had any kind of warrant out for them, even if it was unrelated to immigration, they would not be released. Citizen app video shows the chaotic scene overnight. Neighbors tell us there were dozens of ICE agents. Neighbors like Ebony Watson says they ducked for cover as they heard several flashbangs go off.

[C]

They was terrified. The kids was crying. People were screaming.

[A]

They looked very distraught.

[C]

I was out there crying when I seen the little girl come around the corner corner. They, because they was bringing the kids out too, had them zip tied to each other. That's all. I kept asking, where's the morality? Where's the human? They one of them literally laughed. He was standing right here.

[A]

He said them kids.

[D]

Watson says budget trucks and military style vans were used to separate parents from their children. Other neighbors say they saw agents destroying property to get in the building.

[A]

And they had a big 15 inch.

[C]

Chainsaw with a round blade on it cutting this fence down.

[A]

We're under siege.

[C]

We're being invaded by our own military.

[D]

The FBI did confirm this morning that they did help the U.S. border Patrol carry out a targeted immigration enforcement operation in this area. And they say they had been supporting these efforts at the direction of the US Attorney General.

[A]

Let me read a little bit from the the Chicago Sun Times report on this. I mean this is just absolute nuts. Armed federal agents of military fatigues busted down their doors overnight pulling men, women and children from their apartments, some of them naked residents. Witness said agents approached or entered nearly every apartment in the five story building. US citizens were among those detained for hours on Wednesday. Toys, shoes and food were still in piles in the building's hallways. Property manager was seen throwing mattresses and broken doors into dumpsters. The Department of Homeland Security, Border patrol, FBI bureau, ATF arrested 37 people. DHS said some of those arrested, quote, are believed to be involved in drug trafficking and distribution, weapons crimes and immigration violators. That's a pretty low standard. The feds claim that South Shore neighborhood was quote A location known to be frequented by Trend Agua members and their associates, but DHS gave no evidence to support the assertion. Authorities did not confirm that any of the people arrested were members of the Venezuelan gang. Alleged Trent Agua members have been charged and detained in the city recently as August, but the Chicago sometimes found little evidence tying them to Chicago. Roderick Johnson, 67, one of the many residents detained by federal agents during the raid, a US citizen, he said agents broke through his door and dragged him out in zip ties. Johnson said he was left tied up outside the building for nearly three hours before the agents let him go. I asked the agents why they were holding me if I'm an American citizen, and they said I had to wait until they looked me up. I asked if I had a warrant. I asked for a lawyer. They never brought one. They used flashbang grenades, as we heard in that video. Watson, one of the people living there, said she saw agents dragging residents, including kids, out of the building without any clothes on into U Haul vans. I think it was actually budget vans and kids were separated from their mothers. Stuff was everywhere. You could see people's birth certificates and papers thrown all over. Water was leaking into the hallway. It was wicked crazy. Jones, who lives on the fourth floor, said most of his neighbors were Venezuelan and often took turns cleaning the hallway because the property owners did little to maintain it. They were cool people, jones said as he looked into his next door neighbor's unit. They didn't speak a lick of English, but we used translator apps to talk to each other. Classic Trent Agua activities in taking care of the public spaces in their buildings.

[B]

Just that one other paragraph there I think is important too. Jones and Johnson said they believed the landlord would kick out the remaining residents from the building, which public records show had previously received code violations. Owners of the property could not be reached for comment. This is the second story we've covered where a source of seemingly Slum dog, slumdog, slum lord landlord basically has blamed Trende Aragua for the dilapidation of the buildings and are using supposed gang activity as a pretext to both, like neglect the tenants there and then try to kick them out because clearly they may want to raise rent. I mean, this is an epidemic.

[C]

Yeah, man. I mean, you know, when you look at the building and I know a little bit about Chicago, not a lot, but that sort of building, you could presume it's a. It's in a lower income community with people who are, you know, working class, you know, living their lives with their families, with their Children day to day going about their business and for no reason at all come under attack by ICE and our federal government with pipe bombs and the trauma of their children and the families and the people that have to go through that, who did, who did absolutely nothing wrong. And probably many of them have never, probably gotten in trouble with the law at all. And they have to live through that. And I would also say that if there were, you know, if this building was a crime ridden, you know, building and community, one of these residents probably would have mentioned something like that. Oh, we've been having problems with our neighbors. And you know, because, because, you know, in my experience, many people aren't shy to say, you know, these immigrants, they're doing this or that or whatever. But that's not what I heard. I heard innocent people pretty much trying to figure out what, that, what the F is going on and why are you coming after us. And for the story of the 67 year old man is like, is what we're seeing again in cities across the country. You're detaining and asking questions. Later you have him in zip ties sitting for three hours only to let him go. Are you going to fix his door? Are you going to fix any of the doors that were broken? No, I mean this is, again, you alluded to it in the intro. It's like, you know, many of us have been warning about this kind of thing for many years and now it's here. Like authoritarianism is here. We are living through it right now. And yes, Governor Pritzker has been pushing back, Mayor Johnson has been pushing back. But this, this is what, this is what half of America, almost half of America voted for. And now we have it. And it's freaking scary, man. Like it really is scary. And it can happen in any city, any community at any time.

[A]

I mean, I, at one point it's going to happen here, right? I mean, we're already starting to see isis, you know, out in like, you know, maybe in Bed Stuy, maybe up in the Bronx. And it is no mistake. Well, there's two things that are happening. One, we know that there's a chunk of the immigrant population is going to be living in areas with more poverty, lower income, in buildings like that that aren't necessarily being serviced.

[C]

Generally speaking, yes.

[A]

I mean, you know, broad strokes, but also we also know that the non immigrant population there also has less political power. Right? Like nobody's coming in to, to, to do a raid like this in a building in downtown Manhattan or something like that because they're going to piss off people who are going to be able to immediately get on the phone with a congressman or, you know, a city official. So I imagine we're going to, we're going to see this and maybe sort of like sort of the hour outer parts of some of the boroughs and more low income places in this city. What, like, what would you do? Like, I mean, this is the thing is like, it's like both from a citizen perspective, but also from the perspective of somebody who is like a congressman. Like, what, what do you do in that instance? And it's not like, you know, the New York Police Department and Northern Chicago PD is particularly like known for its, its good relationships with, with immigrants and low income people and particularly Chicago. It's got some really bad history.

[C]

But yeah, man, you know, I mean, listen, you know, right now I have the privilege of having served in the House of Representatives, right? And so that privilege comes with maybe law enforcement treating me differently. But I also have instincts as just being a person who has, you know, I have little sisters and children and I used to be an educator. So I'm a very protective person in my nature. And so, you know, I mean, this year we've seen Senator Padilla be tackled by ICE agents in California. We've seen babies being ripped from mothers. We've seen mothers tackled right here in New York City and at the courts. You know, Brad Lander's been arrested multiple times. We've seen other elected officials arrested multiple times. My instinct is to get in between talking. Jamal Bowman's instinct is to get in between the agents and whoever they're trying to take in addition to that. And this is kind of what I've been doing just on my own time, just ensuring that communities like the one we just saw are connected to the right resources and the right people, including members of Congress. And so, you know, make the Road is an amazing organization here in New York, York that has like lawyers at the ready to support families and whatever their needs are. Yesterday I got a random text, you know, from an immigration lawyer saying, hey, migrants are being texted to go to this random facility in the Bronx to have their paperwork dealt with. And it was. And she was like, something seems fishy about this. This is off. So I texted everyone I knew, right? You know, aoc, Senator Gustavo Rivera, Carl Hasty, everybody just like, hey, like Bronx residents are receiving these texts. Can you look into this? And you know, they looked into. And they was like, yeah, my staff is saying, like, this is bogus. Tell people to stay away, et cetera, et Cetera. So ICE is trying to, like, set people up in these sting operations to go to a random place and get snatched up and that. And that's the other thing, right? Like, the Trump administration promised us that they will go after the hardened criminals, right? The people, you know, looking to bring harm to American citizens, quote, unquote. And they're going after innocent people, man, who are just going through the process of, you know, finishing their paperwork so they could become citizens. And it needs to be repeated over and over again. Coming here, seeking asylum is not. Does not make you a criminal. Like, seeking asylum in the US does not make you a criminal. You're allowed to do that. We have laws in the books that support you in doing that. And then we help with the paperwork so that you could become a citizen. Trump is treating every single migrant as a. As a criminal, treating naturalized citizens as a criminal. And now we're going to see him treat black people as criminals as he has always done anyway.

[B]

Well, can you talk a little more about that? Because I'm saying, seeing how broken windows policing is basically now being federalized, you.

[C]

Know, and that's broken windows on, like, steroids.

[B]

They're literally breaking windows. But it's just this merging of using, say, you know, the expanded powers under after nine, 11, right, the war on terror, the Patriot act, the increase in surveillance, that federal policing, and merging it with things like, you know, the gang databases that have kept so many communities in cycles of poverty and using that as justification to deport people. And it feels very much like the way that communities of color and poorer communities and cities have been treated by local police. They've taken that in the Trump administration and put it on steroids to use it to purge and really ethnically cleanse these communities of immigrants.

[C]

Yeah, that's a great way to put it. And it's not just the ethnic cleansing of immigrants. It's the, you know, and I never thought about it in these terms until you just asked this question. It's almost like the ethnic cleansing of black American citizens into the prison industrial complex.

[B]

Right.

[C]

So that they can work as slaves. And so these are. We're talking about communities that have been historically neglected, historically underfunded. We're talking federal policy like redlining that is historically, historically devalued. These communities, communities and globalization where. Where, you know, manufacturing has gone overseas in a race to the bottom in many of our blackest cities, like Detroit or Philly or Yonkers, and people were left with no economic opportunities and more police. Right. Mass incarceration Started decades ago under I believe it was Nixon. And then, and then on and on and on. And so that's the history of it and it's still happening today. And what we've seen that works, and again, if the Trump administration was serious about this, but we know we, he isn't. What works is investing in hyperlocal solutions in those particular cities. Like what Mayor Brandon Scott is doing in Baltimore. We see violent crime way down. What Mayor Johnson is doing in Chicago, violent crime way down is happening in places across the country. And what we know, and again, we got to continue to say this. When you look at, you know, murder per capita, Valent, Valent crime, per capita death per capita, the numbers are higher in red led states and red led counties, not in Democratic led states and counties and municipalities. We have to keep saying that. Yet Trump is doing nothing there. Right. So this is, and again, it's very scary. And what I, what I have talked about and seen from, from people in the African American community in particular, we're just kind of, you know, falling into like self preservation mode. Like let's just do whatever we can to stay out of the way so we don't get caught up in everything that's happening. But they're going to come for us anyway. Right. Which Chicago is an example of that.

[A]

Yeah, I mean this is, the immigrants are the sort of the low hanging fruit of the day. At different times in this nation's history, it's been other marginalized people in other countries, it's been other people who had marginal political power. Just to the point that, Emma, that you were making in terms of like the stop and frisk, there's a lawsuit. There was this Alabama construction worker, maybe you saw the video, he was beat up by ICE in May and he had showed them his real id. Like literally the real id, the new one, you know, that is basically your federal papers. And they didn't believe it was legitimate. It turned out it was. He then went back to work, a construction worker, US Citizen. And then they got him again, did the exact same thing on a different job site. He is suing now.

[C]

The.

[A]

In a, in a class action suit demanding unconstitutional illegal immigration enforcement tactics cease. And in response, the Department of Homeland Security put out this statement. DHS law enforcement uses, quote, reasonable suspicion to make arrests. I mean, you're laughing.

[C]

Well, I mean, there's reasonable suspicion.

[A]

Exactly. It is not probable cause. There is no, that, that is a novel use of reasonable suspicion to arrest people. Reasonable suspicion is when you can maybe search a car and find Something that provides probable cause that a crime has been committed to make an arrest. What makes someone a target for immigration enforcement is if they're illegally in the US not their skin color, race, or ethnicity, which is exactly the opposite of what DHS submitted to courts in California when they wanted to go after, like, you're speaking Spanish. That is reasonable suspicion that you're an undocumented immigrant, you're working, doing, like, some type of, like, landscaping. Reasonable suspicion, etc. Etc. And that's where we're at. We are at this point.

[C]

Well, you mentioned Arizona. Right? I remember. Many years ago. I forget how long ago it was. Right.

[A]

But, you know, show me your papers.

[C]

Yeah, show me your paper. Yes. SB9 is state law. That was like, well, you know, I can pull you over and ask for your papers, and you better have them on them and show me. And that was like, under this reasonable suspicion idea. And the reasonable suspicion was, okay, you. You have brown skin. You might be. You might be Latino. What's crazy about this, man? And it's just. I mean, everything is crazy about it. But, like, yeah, I remember going to Laredo, Texas, to. To meet with CBP down there to really. And this was before. So this is my first term in Congress. I'm like, okay, let's get to the bottom. And I want to really understand what's happening with migration. So I went to Laredo, Texas, met with cbp, and then I went to. I literally went to Guatemala and. And. And Honduras with Ilhan and Corey and, you know, shout out to my. My former colleagues, because we wanted to understand mass migration from the roots of it. Right. And what we found was just extraordinary. We found indigenous people in Guatemala and Honduras who were literally, like, occupying an indigenous space to stop the multinationals from coming in and destroying their ecosystem completely. Because it's the destruction of these ecosystems that lead to, you know, 70% poverty, no education system, no opportunity. And so they migrate and. And leaves them vulnerable to drug trade and the gang stuff and all the stuff that happens in these places. And so they migrate to get away from that. But the multinationals are Western multinationals, Canadian, European, American, coming in and destroying these places. And, I mean, remember when it was.

[A]

This is part of the legacy of us doing that.

[C]

This is policy. Yes, Right. And even just recently. Who is it? Hillary Clinton, I said, went to South America and said, we're open for business. Was it Hillary or Kamala?

[B]

I don't remember one of them.

[C]

But that's. We can't talk about ice detaining and deporting migrants here without talking about the root causes of mass migration. But the other thing that CBP said was because I asked them what percentage of the people that you stop are actually, quote, unquote, criminals or committing a crime outside of coming to the U.S. and they said much less than 10%. Right. And they were being generous because I've heard numbers about, you know, like 95 or more of the people. Percent of the people who come are coming seeking asylum. So we're talking about 5%. Let's just be generous. 5% of people coming here may be coming to do harm. Right. And, you know, let's scale that to 5% of people in communities, because what I've seen in. In my lifetime in New York City, black, Latino or otherwise, most people just want to fucking chill, man. Like, we. We just. We want to go to school, we want to work, we want to. We want to be in community. We want to live our lives. We're not bothering anyone. And then you have someone like Stephen Miller leading all this ICE stuff. And I'm sure you heard his speech at Charlie Kirk's memorial.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

I mean, this guy is, like, lifted from some Goebbels.

[A]

I mean, he's a plagiarist, too. I mean, that's the thing with the fashion, but it's like, lazy.

[C]

It's like, who. Who is your enemy, dog? Like, no one wants. No smoke. What. We just want to live our lives. But this guy coming after us, this.

[A]

Guy, you can find a video of him as a teenager, like, espousing torture and, you know, being angry at. But he's.

[C]

He's the one running this ICE stuff.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

Yeah, he. There's a video of him at, like, some school event on a microphone, screaming about, why do we have to pick up our trash? Because we have janitors to do it for us. This is the kind of person that gets off on humiliating people. And, you know, we're. I'm curious about this, because I saw Hakeem Jeffries the other day, declined to basically say that he thinks Trump is deteriorating mentally. I wouldn't do that. If I were him, I would try to take political shots because they don't play by any rules. But, like, that's just the tip of the iceberg, obviously. But the. Stephen Miller is basically the president right now. Like, that's what it feels like to me.

[C]

Him and J.D. vance and.

[A]

Russell.

[C]

Russell, yeah. Yeah.

[B]

And it just feels like Trump is there. And you were reading that. Grover Norquist or relaying that earlier, Sam, this idea that we just Need a warm body who can sign tax breaks.

[C]

For the rich and executive orders, Right?

[B]

Yep. And knows how to use a pen or Trump uses a Sharpie. And that seems to be where we're at right now. Like, there's this rudderlessness and maybe not rudderlessness that's on our end, but there's clearly, it seems like the full on fascists have taken the wheel and Trump is along for the ride because he just wanted to get out of jail running this time.

[C]

Very true. And he obviously has his own, you know, alignment to, you know, the ideology of white supremacy over the course of his career and his dad's career. And so, so he, he's right there with them. But yeah, man, you know, you know, I hate to be, you know, redundant, but it's, it's, it's a scary time and you know, you know, I know we're going to get to what's happening in New York and what's happening in other places. I mean, this is, this. If the people aren't going to stand up and take back our democracy now, I don't know what we're waiting for. Like, this is the moment to do it. And it's not just with voting, obviously that's important, but it's with organizing, it's with our intellectual resources, our capital, our time, our building of community. I mean, now is the time to push back relentlessly on all of it. And if this thing has any chance of surviving, you know, we'll see in 2026 and 2028 what that looks like. But that, like, this is, this is some scary stuff, man. There's some scary stuff.

[A]

I want to circle back to, to New York City because I know you've been working in support of Zoram Hamdani and, But let's talk about what's happening on a federal level first, in terms of the shutdown. Like, what's your, how would you, I don't want to say grade, but like, what are you seeing this time around in the way that the leadership is dealing with this? Because, I mean, it's marginally better than the last time when it was easier for them to deny what was actually going on, I think, or what was about to happen, etc. Etc. But what is, what is your sense?

[C]

It's. Congress is a joke, man. Like, I mean, it's so I'm not even really leaning in or really paying attention to how leadership is dealing with it, quite frankly, because I've been around this block like a million times and when I say it's a joke. It's just particularly under Republican controls, even worse than under Democratic control because these Democrats, you know, seek to govern at least a moderate level. Right, right. Democrats at the very least are gonna like, do what's necessary to ensure the government doesn't shut down. Like we would, we would make sure that doesn't happen. Republicans there, you know, and again, I've only experienced a Trump era. I don't know what it was like under Obama and Bush. They're not serious at all. And their whole thing right now, they.

[A]

Know they're not serious. I mean, like, yeah, I think talk to these guys in the hall.

[C]

I think they know, man, because again, I was there for two terms, four years and you. I started to feel and realize like, oh, I'm just, this is theater. Like, this is like wrestling. Like, I'm just a character in this effed up play and I have my role to play as the progressive guy. And that's just what. At least in the House, right. The Senate may be a little different because they get six years and the House is two years. You govern maybe for six, nine months and then you're running, right. Your hair is always on fire. You stay in your pocket of talking points and of the theater of what it's supposed to be. You play your role. And that's. And so, so for the Republicans who have been there for like, you know, you know, 2, 3, 5, 10 terms, they know what it is, right? And so it's, it's just, and it's heartbreaking because like a person like me, like Corey, who just shout out to course, she just launched a reelection campaign. People, working class people go there to like really do stuff for people. And so like, we can't, I couldn't fathom like how we can't raise the minimum wage or how, you know, the first iteration of Build Back Better didn't have anything for affordable housing. Like, what are we? Like, how, how does that happen that the bill proposed by a Democratic president at the time didn't have affordable housing and Maxine Waters had to force the White House to put it in. I couldn't fathom as a middle school principal who's every day I got to make sure my kids are okay. I'm going to the most powerful, you know, democracy government in the, in the world and we can't do basic shit for regular. I just couldn't fathom it. And so when I see his government shut down, it's like, okay, like, you know, Republicans are on their bs, Democrats seem to be holding the line a bit stronger on certain things, which is. Which is a good sign because the last time it was a joke. And so hopefully Democrats will get some wins out of this, and hopefully sooner rather than later, the government will open back up. And I say hopefully because Trump and the administration, so unpredictable.

[A]

What is your sense of. From both the outside in.

[C]

Right.

[A]

I mean, you've worked within the community, you know, like, what it feels like to hope to have some type of leadership or material benefit from your representative, but also from the other side. Like, what is their. How much of a difference does it make when, regardless of what the material outcome is of this, but the stances that the Democratic leadership are taken this time versus last time, how much does that filter in? How much does that impact what's happening to people's sort of, like, sense of what's happening outside? Like, I mean, is there. I'm curious what your sense is of that and what. What your senses of their sense of it. Like, because a lot of times it looks like Schumer and Jefferies, they think their audience is basically just everybody in the Morning Joe studio. And there may have been a touch Schumer. Yes. Yeah. But there may have been a time where that was largely true, but I don't think that's true anymore.

[C]

Yeah, I think. And it goes back to what I was saying before about being in the House and having to run every two years and the hair always being on fire. Every member is hyper focused on their districts. Right. Like, hyper focus. Like what, you know, what's happening in my district, you know, what happened last election that led to me winning, and let me make sure I stay within that pocket so I can win again. And then Hakeem is looking at that as a leader. Jeffries is looking at that, you know, locally, but also nationally. Right. And aligning with frontline districts more so than a vision of what America is supposed to be. So frontline districts are like swing districts.

[A]

Right?

[C]

Right. And so what is it? Was it dccc? I think it is. So they raise money to support swing districts.

[A]

And.

[C]

And these are important districts. Right. Because you have someone like Shahana Hayes and Johanna Hayes in the, you know, in the swing district, and she might win by, like,.2%. And we need to win that seat to have the majority. What's always frustrated me is in these districts, you may have 20, 30% of people voting, maybe 35%. And so there's another, like, you know, 60, 70, 80% of people not voting. Like, could we put a plan together to maybe, like, dramatically increase 0 prime voters so that we can crush the next election versus just playing this moderate in the middle, you know, not to lose versus play to win kind of politics. And so everyone like, like again was Zoran just did with. With in the New York City primary. So everyone's hyper focused on their district. Hakeem is hyper focused on the country through the lens of dccc, in my opinion, which I don't think is always the right lens. And many of them move, and I'll bring Schumer into this now, move in a way where like, okay, how do we win the majority here? Win the majority here through a narrow lens. And they're not, in my opinion, aware of what the, what the majority of working class people in America care about. And it's just, they're just, they're just moving with this dccc. And then underneath that is the dccc, the dscc, the dnc, the political class, big money, special interests. So that is the brain trust of Congress, not the people. And what's so exciting about, you know, I'll put myself in there, but like me and Corey and AOC and Ayanna and Ilhan and Rashida and Greg and Summer Lee and Deal. What's exciting about us is we're about the people, man.

[A]

Right.

[C]

And this is supposed to be the people's House. And again, Citizens United, all that shit. Special interest control that place.

[A]

But I just want the consultant class believes that it's much harder to get that any part of that, whatever it is, 60% that doesn't vote, 40% doesn't vote, whatever that number is, than to convince some 5% in the middle that swings.

[C]

Of course, Ezra Klein is leading that freaking conversation.

[A]

Yes.

[C]

Like, I don't want Ezra Klein to come to the Bronx to try to persuade people in the Bronx to vote a certain way. That's the problem. But let me listen to Ezra Klein and John Podesta and no disrespect, man, but like dog. Anyway, finish.

[A]

Well, have you seen examples of like, because Mamdani was able to get a primary vote out, that was the biggest primary vote in the history of the city. And so obviously mobilizing people who didn't, who haven't voted in the past. So it's sort of like there's evidence that that can be done. It just happened. But it's disregarded because, well, it's young people, whatever the excuse is. But have you seen, has there been an example? And we have examples of people who have done that in the context of, you know, that you mentioned the squad, so larger, largely from blue districts. So that's sort of discounted. Well, there's. But the idea that you can motivate people in a blue district versus motivating people in a purple district, it doesn't necessarily logically follow that you can't do that. I mean, there are every types of people in every district. Have you ever seen a situation where somebody's perspective turned toward that way? Like, it's one thing to say, okay, I came from. I mean, I remember your race.

[C]

Yeah. I want to say I'm one of the examples. But.

[A]

When you were running in that primary and, you know, you were coming, you were an educator and, and you came in with that attitude. Are there people. Have you seen examples of people who came into Congress with a different attitude and then develop that attitude as a way of, like, this is how I can win in the future?

[C]

No, I wasn't there long enough to experience that in that way. But one person who I think kind of captures what you're saying, he was a House member that ran for U.S. senate in New Jersey. Andy Kim.

[A]

Right.

[C]

So, you know, Jersey can go either way. You know, there's been Republican governors, etc. But he, I think the way he practices politics is, you know, is a good way to practice politics, meaning he talks to everybody and he's great at communicating and he listens well. And, and, you know, he's really clear on, like, you know, his objective of serving people, but also, like, you know, making this a state for the working class in New Jersey, but a nation for the working class. Right. Versus the, the special interests. And so, no, I wasn't there long enough to see, like, you know, someone like a Johanna Hayes, to use her example, you know, go in, you know, with a very thin victory and then, like, grow the electorate in her district and then crush it the next year. There might be one that I'm not thinking of what.

[A]

But my, like, Pat Ryan is. There's some issues that I don't necessarily. And he's 18th district in upstate, but he's a guy who's, like, who. You know, it was a weird time when he got in because he had to run like two, three times, one cycle. But. And again, I'm not, I don't love all of his issues, but, like, he's. He's pretty solidly, like, in a economic populism. And, you know, he was a county supervisor and a pretty good one, this.

[C]

Is what I'm saying. So that's a very good example. Right. Of Pat Ryan, who's a bit younger, has been a great, a good leader before then as a county executive, which is a big job and a serious job and a big deal. He did that, effectively got in. Right. And I could definitely, totally see him growing the electorate there. He, he's one of those kind of people. But again, it, they all fit a characteristic. Right? So maybe a little bit younger. And by younger, I mean under 50. Right. Or under 55. Has, has done something before that shows like you have some, some chops. Right. Like I was a middle school principal. People may not think that's a big deal, but trust me, if you could run a middle school and, and engage the parents, you know, respectfully.

[A]

There's a lot of different constituencies you've.

[C]

Got to say, and there's a skill set that you need to do that that translates to elected office, just like county executive or even a state rep or a local rep. And so, you know, he's one example. But here's what I would, I would offer also. I mean, you see the money that the political class raises, right? This money is rarely or barely invested in the work that we're talking about. It's barely invested in actually growing the electorate.

[B]

Well, that was going to be my question too. And it feeds nicely into. It is because micro targeting a small slice of voters, and Schumer said this in 2016, that. What's the quote? Right, Matt, for every.

[A]

A working class person, we lose an arrest belt, we gain two in the suburbs.

[B]

Exactly. And so they seem to be hyper targeting these suburban voters. And consultants get rich if you're micro targeting a small sliver with TV ads, etc. What Zoran did, what you and the squad did, isn't getting people rich. People power doesn't get people rich because you don't get a percentage off an ad when you're door knocking. And that is like a, I feel like a core of the issue here that we're not talking about, but it's. The infrastructure is rotten because the incentive structure is rotten.

[C]

Yeah. And, and it's capitalism. Right. So it's also greed and everyone wants to make money. Right. And again, Zoran is a, is a, you know, is a generational political talent as AOC was and is and as many others are. So I don't want to, I don't want to underscore that, but Pat Ryland, Pat Ryan doesn't jump off the page as someone, you know, super dynamic and charismatic, but I think he can do the same thing. And Zoran also did micro targeting Right. Like, all of a sudden, we're talking about the Bangladeshi community in New York more than we ever have, the Pakistani community more than we ever have, the African Muslim community more than we ever have. Not just black, Latino, white, East Asian. We're talking about everyone. And the Democratic Party, to me, if it. If it really wants to, like, fight back and save our democracy, you got to target everyone for real. But if you target everyone, you got to say something about Gaza now, if you start. You know what I mean? And so this is what I mean by, like, the special interests. Right? And so when. When you. When you can. I mean, even before the genocide, I mean, they wouldn't say apartheid. They wouldn't say military occupation. They wouldn't even say those words.

[A]

You had former Israeli generals and top politicians saying apartheid before a democratic politician would in this country.

[B]

And I heard you on Crystal Kyle and friends speak about your. How AIPAC tried to recruit you.

[A]

I.

[B]

Can you say. Can you just quickly relay that story a little bit? Because it was such a fascinating story.

[C]

Yeah, yeah. No, so crazy. I mean, you know, as a candidate and, you know, I launched in June 2019. The election was a year away and was before COVID So Covid hit like, February, March. So this was before March 2020. And yeah, I'm a candidate. I'm not even polling yet. Right. I don't even know what the polling said. But AIPAC reached out to have a meeting, and they didn't reach out directly on their own. You know, they were shrewd about it. Right. They reached out to a leader in the black community who happened to work for AIPAC to try to get a meeting with me to tell me about AIPAC's objectives and agenda. This leader was in an organization called 100 Black Men, and he happened to be the executive director of 100 Black Men at the time. And he reached out to me. I said, hey, we can. We can talk about 100 black men, but I don't want to talk about AIPAC. Now, thankfully, I was informed about who AIPAC was because I was endorsed by the Justice Democrats and they were clear on who AIPAC was at the time. And shout out to, you know, Alexandra Rojas and Wali Shahid, who was there at the time. They educated me. So I didn't meet with aipac, but AIPAC does that with any young, younger, promising person running for office or elected.

[A]

And this is as you were running against Elliot Angle.

[C]

Yes. This is 2019. I'm not even polling. Like, I'm not even on the radar yet and they're reaching out to have a meeting.

[A]

So they're covered. They're basically going into the roulette table and they're going like, we're putting a bet on every. We want to put a bet on every single bed here.

[C]

We're putting a bet on everyone. And. And I'm sure if I was game, they probably would have took me to Israel, you know, during the campaign or maybe shortly after winning. But that's how they get down. And that's how. And that's how they loop you in. And you know, you know, the cell is also pretty good, right? Because no, you know, we all want to fight anti Semitism and we all want to support a safe place for Jewish people. Right? And so, you know, yeah, like, of course we support that. Of course we're down with that. They probably don't even bring up, you know, occupation or Palestinians or Palestine at all. They're just talking about their stuff. And so for me, I was lucky because I came in with jd, so I had that education. But they're elected officials all across the country and not just congressional come in.

[A]

And they give a bunch of money. And it's almost like when you start making a little bit of money, you get a mortgage on your house and then all of a sudden, like, wait a second, you're going to. You're going to cut my hours? Yeah, I'm going to. I'm screwed on my work to my house.

[C]

And everyone hates fundraising. Yeah, no one likes to fundraise. And so when you run for office for everyone out there, and I think people know this already, but I'll just say it, you got to dial for dollars, man. Like you're calling complete strangers, you know, Jamal Bowman calling Sam Sater, you know, hey, I'm Jamal Bowman. I'm principal running for Congress. Can you toss me a couple bucks? And you're doing that three, four hours, sometimes five hours a day for like five, six, seven days a week sometimes. And that's what you're doing versus like my whack ass opponent last term, George Latimer. He have to dial for Dallas.

[A]

Right.

[C]

You know what I mean? Apex said we got you. You know what I mean? Like, you're going to have money in your, in your campaign account and we're going to establish this ie over here, the C4 over here. And we'll run ads for you, and we'll just run ads for you and you probably won't even have to spend your campaign account.

[A]

Right. All you got to do is just.

[C]

Go around, go around, go around and visit people and, you know, shake hands and all that. And we got you with the money. So they, they, they make it easier. But. And not just through them, through many special interests, but they're one of the biggest ones. Obviously, you know, that's how they, you know, was it 70, 80%. I guess Congress takes money from Apex and Crazy.

[A]

That number is starting to.

[C]

Which is, which is exciting.

[A]

There's a story in the Times today about how, at least nominally speaking, the Democratic Party is moving away from aipac. And largely because of the protests and because of the work that activists have done have made it toxic for people to take AIPAC money. And in your race and Cori Bush's race were perfect examples of Republicans essentially like it exposed the Republican AIPAC pipeline. And that AIPAC has become not only, I think, for the. Supportive of the worst impulses of Israel, but also has become a fig leaf for Republican money and conservative values to undercut progressives in Democratic primaries. Yes.

[C]

So they're investing in the more conservative Democrat in a particular primary through Republican money. Like these are Republican donors.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

You know, it's like the Bill Ackman in the, in the, in the. Zoran Cuomo and he wanted to get.

[A]

Torres to jump into the, into the, into the race.

[C]

Oh, my God. Torres, boy. I mean, yeah, it's crazy, but it's, it's. Man, I hope we could figure this out. Right. Because, I mean, you talk about congressional approval right now across the country is 20% for Democrats and Republicans. It's just a joke. And, and you talk about national security. That's a national security issue. When people stop having faith in your, in your federal, in your federal or local government. And then this. And this is part of the Project 2025 and Stephen Miller and all their agenda as well. They want to privatize the federal government. Totally want to privatize America. So you fire 150,000 federal workers, you close the Department of Education, you, you know, you steal data from treasury and all these, all these places. Right. You leave the people vulnerable to private takeover, which is what's happening right now as well.

[A]

So let's talk just a little bit about New York politics. We interviewed just a little bit.

[C]

I mean, we, you know, we're five weeks, four weeks away, man. We gotta.

[A]

Well, I was being, you know, I undersell things. It's. I always want to exceed expectations. But we interviewed Antonio Delgado the other day, who I think he served with.

[C]

Yeah. For, for a term.

[A]

Yeah. What's your perspective on that race. And how does that race impact Mom, Donnie's race and what Mamdani might be able to do once he gets elected? Because that's a great question. Like, the key.

[C]

It's a great question. It's going to be an interesting race. It's going to be a tough race. I think there was a time, you know, post. Was it post primary? No, post November. So I guess November 2024, where Governor Hochul seemed very vulnerable. Right. And you have people like Richie Torres out there talking junk and all that stuff that he was my run. But I think she's stronger now, you know, because I think she's been pushing back strongly against Trump. She. She something that's, you know, underreported. You know, she put in this, like, cell phone. Cell phone ban in place in New York City public schools. You know, I'm a public school guy, and all I do is visit public schools a few a week, and the teachers and everyone are raving about it.

[A]

I have a picture that I keep texting my son of like they have some type. I can't remember what his name is, but he's like some, like, Barney character who teaches the kids to put it in their pouches.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

And my kid was so pissed about that, but I was so happy.

[C]

Yeah. I have to say, this is what I'm saying. So that was. That was a big thing she did. But to your question, point of your.

[A]

Question, she's about to send out checks for 400.

[C]

You know, that's a Trump move right there. Maybe she'll sign them.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Put some.

[A]

Can I just say, just on that thing, it is the greatest waste of money, it seems to me, because it's all going to be. It's going to be subject to federal tax. So we're at a time where Trump is defunding New York State. We're going to be sending out money that New York State has already collected that everybody has already sort of, like, emotionally let go of. She's just going to give them money as a way of inflating her value to them. And then you got to give that back to Trump, who is not going to send it back to New York. To me, that is. I mean, there's an opportunity.

[C]

You know, people ain't trying to hear that, though, right? They're like, yo, give me my check so I could do something with it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.

[B]

She's trying to fortify her left flank.

[C]

Absolutely.

[B]

That's why she reluctantly endorsed Zoran.

[C]

Well, this is where I was going, right. And so, you know, she, she reluctantly endorsed it. Took her a while, but she did. She did it before Hakeem and Chuck. Right. And I, I don't.

[A]

Everybody has.

[C]

I don't think. Yeah, I don't know.

[A]

I think Andrew Cuomo is going to endorse before they do.

[C]

And I think, I think Hakeem is going to do it. I don't think Chuck is going to do it. And I definitely don't think Gillibrand is going to do it. But. No, but she did that. Right. And you know, Zoran has. There's some very specific policies that are going to need state support.

[A]

Yes.

[C]

Like universal child care. And so if she leaves.

[A]

Even the free buses.

[C]

Even the free buses also. Yep. But if she leans in and does universal child care, that's, that's, that's going to be huge.

[A]

How much is Delgado in the race forcing Hochul to, to do these things? Because the idea. Yeah, that was my sense.

[C]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, because it's a, it's a race.

[A]

You can't allow there to be space on her left flank in a way that she could have if Delgado was not in that race.

[C]

A hundred percent. And by left flank, we're talking about. But that also means, like, people can't go to sleep after Zoran wins. Right. And hopefully he wins. You know, he hasn't, he hasn't gotten there yet. We need for people to stay engaged because that race is next year. And so take a break, take a breather, but get right back on it, because it's our organizing that continues to put pressure on Governor Hochul as well.

[A]

So I'm encouraged by this because, like, the day after Mamdani won the primary, I was like, he is going to have a 12 month window to be able to go up to Albany, where Kathy Hochul is going to be unable to publicly say no to Mamdani in that environment where Delgado is going. And he's going to have that 12 to 18 months, essentially, I would say less than that.

[C]

So like 6 to 12. So he's, God willing, he wins in November. Right. The budget is due April. And so I think six months, you got to have a big win in that first budget. That's what de Blasio.

[A]

And that's where his peak leverage is.

[C]

Going to be correct. And that's what de Blasio did, I think, with Universal Pre K. You know, I think it was that first budget, even though, you know, Cuomo tried to stop him in every turn. I think HOKA would be more collaborative. I hope she.

[A]

I feel like what Cuomo did, too, at that time was put in a budget that was finite. Like, there was not a ongoing, if I remember correctly, not an ongoing funding mechanism. And that. That funding mechanism only got put in place later after, I think it was either Zephyr Teach out took a chunk out of him in the statewide election, the first run, and. And that's when he got a little bit weakened and again, had to tack a little bit to the left and couldn't afford that fight.

[C]

Yeah, he was such a.

[A]

Dick. He's a huge dick.

[C]

Yeah, man. Like just a bully, you know? Just. Just. Yeah, just operated as an emperor. So petty.

[A]

I sat. I sat in a room around that time with about 40 or 50 social people who ran NGOs, some of whom. Some union people who all had dealt with Cuomo. And I can't remember who the Republican candidate was, but they're saying he is such an asshole in terms of, like, his willingness to ax our funding to trash our organizations that we feel like we might be better off with a Republican because they can't do this much damage to it. Now, this was a time when the IDC was still in progress, and thank goodness for, you know, Governor Nixon, who reversed all that. Her race against him.

[C]

Well, that's a really good point, and I want to just. Just elevate that. Cynthia Nixon runs against Cuomo during a time where many are running against these IDC members in. In the state legislature, Cynthia gets about 35% of the vote. She loses. But many IDC members, she made the New York.

[A]

The voters in those districts understood what IDC was.

[C]

That's right. That's right.

[A]

For the first time.

[C]

That's right. And so, you know, because I, you know, because of ego and arrogance and all that, you know, we're like, if you run, you got to run to win. You got to run to win. But. But our movement is a. Is a. Is not just about winning a particular race at a particular time. It's about moving the agenda, shifting paradigms, changing the conversation. I'll give you one very specific quick example. I was coming out the gym in. In Level Fitness, Shout out to Level Fitness at the cusp of the Bronx In Pelham, N.Y. coming out the gym, random black dude is like, yo, you started a revolution. Like, what are you talking about, man? He's like a pack, man. You started a revolution. Now we know who they are. This is a random, apolitical black dude. They ran so many ads against me, right? And we told our own story. About that, that everyone now in our area knows and everyone across the country knows now because they did the same thing to Corey. And so we. We in. You know, my friend Mondale Robinson Cobb, he's a mayor of a rural town in. In. In North Carolina. He's like, yo, we got to start framing you and Corey's race as a reframing, as a win, because the fact that they had to spend record amounts of money to get you out, and now everyone knows who the hell they are, that's a win for world.

[A]

They become toxic, disempowered in that context.

[C]

That's. That's right. That's right. So, yeah, we lost seats. But if JD Comes back this term and gets six, seven, eight seats, which is not impossible because, you know, funders are more engaged and small dollars are more engaged, you know, I'll take that.

[A]

So, speaking of which, what are you. What are you doing?

[C]

I'm chilling, man.

[B]

Well, you've been phone back. You've been like, you were one of the earliest people on the ground for Zoron. Gotta give. Oh, yeah, but, like, we need you back in public.

[C]

Oh, I. I appreciate that. I mean, I. You know, I kind of feel like I'm in public service. You know, I do my little political and education thing. I mean, I want to be like. I want to be the hood Ezra Klein, you know what I'm saying? Like, I want to be like, you know, I'm. I'm the. I'm. I'm the, you know, what do you call the hood whisperer, right? Where, like, I'm not talking. That Ezra Klein, you know, dumb. I'm. I'm talking, like, you know, to. To real people on the ground who we're trying to pull in, you know, I mean, that. I don't know if you saw the ad that we did with Zoran shortly after the primary at the Wu Tang concert.

[B]

Yes, of course.

[C]

You didn't see this, Sam.

[A]

Oh. Oh.

[C]

Did y' all see it?

[A]

Of course.

[C]

Come on, Sam.

[B]

I mean, this was. This husband's a big Wu Tang fan. He was really excited.

[C]

Yeah. So. So. So that aesthetic, that political aesthetic is Jamal Bowman.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

And so I'm trying to grow that locally and nationally. You know, I'll be in Minnesota in a couple weeks supporting young brother Omar Fatah there who's running for mayor. Yeah. Yeah. So I'll be in Minnesota, and. And I think there's a Seattle. Seattle mayor that is. I don't know about. I'm learning about that one. I don't know If y' all know that one you got, you gotta tell me.

[B]

Calling it a little.

[C]

Yeah, okay. Y' all gotta let me know if this person is progressive enough for me to go and support them. But that's what I'm doing now. And by doing that, you know, I'm given the opportunity to like, really connect with and build community, which is what we got to do. We gotta, you know, if I could use my platform and my experiences as a way to organize and raise money and do all those things, that's what I'm going to do for a while and then we'll see.

[B]

I just want to read an IM because I actually this is a little bit navel gazing, but I am curious. Montana resident writes in. If you read this while Jamal's still on. Do Congress members or their staff watch shows like Mr. Or other progressive commentators to get a sense of public sentiment or even to see reactions to policy or speeches or anything else? Because we kind of have a sense.

[C]

Do we do that is the question.

[B]

Yeah, that's the question.

[C]

Yes. Especially staffers.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

When I was, at least when I was there and just speaking for myself, I was so locked in to trying to be effective at the job that I couldn't always, I didn't know like, who was who out there in the.

[B]

Right.

[C]

In the podcast universe. But, but also, to be fair, this is a universe that is, has exponentially grown.

[A]

Yes.

[C]

Over the last five year or two, five or six years. But I mean, even the last year or two. Right. Even more. And so, you know, so. Yeah. But staffers. Yes. Like, staffers are really plugged into especially progressive staffers. Staffers for like, there's also, I, I.

[A]

I'm quite sure there's some non progressive staff.

[C]

Yes.

[A]

Probably who check out just to see if somebody's, you know, in any way mocking them.

[B]

So he changed his, I'm sorry, but I'm convinced he changed his glasses because it sounds a little bit about this. I am convinced.

[C]

Oh.

[A]

That, that I don't know if that's true.

[C]

So, so one quick thing about that. So like when I was there, I was also, I was surprised at how much, at how much we, we, meaning the Democratic Caucus followed and responded to mainstream media and allowed that to determine how we, it has been how we responded to X issue.

[B]

Yes.

[C]

Like, I remember Steny Hoya just standing up in front of us like, we can't do that because then CNN's gonna say this. I was like, who can't? Like, why we, why are we using. Why is that the standard, like, okay, of course, of course they're going to say that. But this is it the right thing or not? Let's just do the right thing.

[A]

I have this theory that like, you know, 90% of the music I listen to is basically from a, like a 10 year period when I was, you know, from 17 to 27. That's basically I'm locked in probably.

[C]

Right, me too.

[A]

And Steny Hoyer, when he came in, CNN sort of like exploded on the scene and then Fox and like they're just locked in to politics that existed from like 91 to, you know, essentially 2,000 and completely locked in. And as far as they know, nothing has changed in terms of the dynamic.

[C]

And they don't want any criticism. So they don't want, that's the other thing. Like how can we make this decision or take this vote and how do we minimize the criticism or not get any criticism at all? And when I say they, I mean more like establishment Democrats. You know, at least in my time there, you know, as squad, we did a lot of things that were controversial on the right and the left. But, but yeah, it's, it's just like how can you referee. Quick reference. I was, I was listening to audiobook of Brene Brown. Did the lead shout to Brene Brown. I just think it's a funny reference for me to make on the show right now. But, but in, but she talks about courage and she talks about courage and vulnerability, right? And how to actually exercise courage and courage and leadership. You have to be vulnerable, which means you're gonna, you're gonna, you're gonna open yourself up to taking lumps, right? You're gonna take a couple hits. But that's what leadership is. Leadership. It's, it's, it's, it's doing the courageous thing because it's, it's important and it matters and it moves us all forward even though people, people don't get it. I don't see that level of courageous leadership consistently enough amongst our party.

[A]

Do you think how much of it is generational and how much of it is ideological? Because I'm sure it's not, it's not one or the other, but the mix. Because you know, it's not really until, I mean I watch this in the media in the early aughts, like reporters, writers, they could not handle the idea of like what was happening with the blogs where commenters were on the same sort of like plane in terms of the medium where they could get criticism because they're used to like, well Maybe there'll be a letter to the editor and then I gotta go talk to the editor. Like, why did you put this one in? It's criticizing me. I imagine politicians also. There was no, the only feedback loop that they were getting was maybe a writer, you know, David Broder might take you to task or something like that. This is much different environment where they're, you know, for better. Well, there's a lot more sort of feedback. And people who grow up, particularly as digital natives, or at least not as sort of like their minds sort of ossified by the time it comes up, are aware that like you're going to hear from everybody, there's going to be people who are going to criticize you.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

You just need to like, sort of like being able to maintain, you know, watch the horizon as it were, as, you know, and go through the waves.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

How much of this is generational? How much is ideological?

[C]

The signal versus the noise. Right. I think it's, I think it's definitely generational, but I also think it's idea. I think it's both, and I think it might be ideology a bit more just because I think the ideology of establishment politics is to maintain the establishment and continue to be in support of incrementalism in a way where you're not going to drastically change the lives or meet the needs of the most vulnerable people in our, in our country. And so when I say maintain the establishment and since Citizens United, I mean that's just been big money. You know, the establishment political infrastructure is supported by, you know, capitalism, you know, and what I called, what I call plantation capitalism. Right. And so it all feels like it exists to maintain that, maintain the racial caste system, the economic inequality, and even move further towards privatization of everything versus move towards actually helping working class people have dignity and the opportunity to access the American dream. And so that's an ideology. I think that's in Steny Hoyer, who's been there forever, Nancy Pelosi, who's been there forever, and some of the younger, more establishment Democrats. And I, and I, I mean, I run into how.

[A]

Where are they, that they have an ideology, because they certainly present. Like, I'm not ideological about this.

[C]

Yeah. I mean, I, I don't know because we're not. When I hear Ezra Klein talk, I'm like, is he even aware of, like, how he, how he's coming off? I don't know if he's even aware of it.

[B]

Can you, can you like that question to that interview? I mean, I was shocked. We, we Read Ta Nehisi Coates, his op ed that prompted this, this interview that they did, and it was like, got so much attention. People were really, really exercised about the Charlie Kirk, you know, kind of whitewashing of his entire career. And I'm seeing this almost like kind of debate online that represents so much of the fight within the Democratic Party. Like there was major, major backlash from, I think many communities of color to see this, like very prominent Democratic, like liberal pundit whitewash this racist. It was a bit, I don't know, shocking, I guess to me to see how many people even cared. But you've referenced Ezra a few times, so I'm curious.

[A]

Like we should also say not exactly a firebrand when it comes to, you know, economic populism per se. Or at least that's certainly not where he, where he was when he was sort of like, you know, on his rise. I mean, I think like he's far more, I think, conscious of the implications of, of race and of marginalized people, broadly speaking. I don't know where, you know, on these, sort of like that was the tenor liberal, but, but nevertheless where Ezra.

[C]

Is seems totally oblivious to that. Right. So when you say, you know, Charlie Kirk was doing politics the right way and much of, if not all of his rhetoric was just punching down on vulnerable people and straight racist and sexist and transphobic and then saying other wild stuff like calling for public executions to be televised, like just wildness. Right. So how is that practicing politics the right way in alignment with the way Ezra Klein thinks we should practice politics? How is the, the, the action of going to colleges and having conversations with college students separate from what he actually said out his mouth? And how are we not doing. How we not.

[A]

The guy's organization has a watch list of professors. I mean, to my mind, my, my assumption, what it really is revealing about Ezra Klein is this not as rigorous as he.

[C]

Well, that's a great Jacks. That's a, that's a, that's. And that's why I was like, you know, disorienting for me and like cognitive dissonance for me. Right.

[A]

He had a brand. But this is a guy also, I have to say, who was saying that was touting Paul Ryan back in the day.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

And Paul Ryan was also just a paper tiger of intellectualism. And, and, and, and so this has always been there with. It's just that there is an awareness by the Democratic voter. They are getting more sophisticated as to what is actually going on. You can see it in the numbers of like what they wanted for the shutdown, like, the polling numbers on this shutdown are very different than they have been in years past. Compromise issues like this, there is an awareness amongst a set of Democratic voters who were sort of like the classic, I elect my people. You guys take care of it. I've got other stuff to do. They're aware that there's like, wait a second, there's a problem here. And the Republican Party is not, you know, sort of the. This is not Bill Weld anymore or, you know, George Herbert Walker Bush. It's a different. It's a different ball game. I would also argue, argue George Herbert Walker Bush was very problematic, but I was a little more sensitive.

[C]

No, no, but I think you said the right word. Rigor. Like the lack of rigor. Right. Like the New York Times, you know, of course, a lot of criticism nowadays, but over the course of my life was, was considered like the, the, the eminent, you know, like the standard as it relates to, like, journalism and reporting and rigorous in like, all of journalism.

[B]

Right.

[C]

And Ezra Klein is a celebrated columnist for the New York Times. So one would think that his level of rigor and intellect would be at a level that, that raises others up to reach a particular standard. And when I saw what he wrote about Charlie Kirk, initially I just thought it was super lazy and like, mad, like, disrespectful, to put it lightly. Like Charlie Kirk was saying, like, yo, you know, I'm paraphrasing here. Black women are not as intelligent as, as a, If I see a black.

[A]

Guy flying plane, I'm nervous. He's there because of dei.

[C]

So Ezra, you're co signing that, like, what? Right. With Kentanji Brown, Jackson and all, and all. Like, crazy that he would even hint at co signing that. But he did. And he did it openly. Yep. So Ta Nehisi writes his piece, which was a great response, in my opinion, and then they have this conversation, which, you know, I wouldn't even call it debate. It's like they have this cordial conversation. And Ta Nehisi, basically throughout the conversation is tan. He's just pretty much saying, like, I'm black. This is America. This is how it always is. And that's why I feel the way I feel about it. And I can't believe you whitewashed him, you know, and again, I'm paraphrasing all of this when he was, you can argue, a hate monger and what bothered me about their conversation. And again, I can't even call it a conversation because it's Ezra on His platform, asking the questions. Ta Nehisi would say a particular point of view that I thought was very strong and positive response. Ezra wouldn't respond.

[A]

Yo, listen, I got news for you. I've had him on this platform and he has the exact same. Which is same, same mechanism, same disposition.

[C]

Which is not even. Again, not just. That's not how you have a conversation. No conversation. You say something to me, I acknowledge it.

[B]

Yes.

[C]

I reflect, I have some reflection on what you said, then I make my point. So I respond to what you said first, then I pivot to like what I want. That's, that's human communication, one on one. Well, the part that do that at all. And so every time. I'm sorry, no, no, no, no. Every time, Ta Nehisi responded. And again, like, Ta Nehisi and I about the same age, every book I read by him, I feel like he's writing it for me. Yeah, Black men in America, he's Baltimore, I'm East Harlem up the east side slash, right? So I feel like this is my dude. So he's responding as a black man with a certain level of passion and of course, brilliance. And Ezra's not even acknowledging him. And I'm just like, this is what it is to be black in America. Like, we, we give you our shit, our pain, our suffering, our trauma, our perspective, our intellect, our history, our work ethic. We do it in classrooms, we do it in the workplace. We're doing it in this conversation with Ezra. And you, liberal white man, don't even acknowledge it. And then to make it even worse, you choose whiteness. And, and, and, and to go even further, you choose white supremacy. The ideology you're aligning yourself with, with that. Just like Gavin Newsom.

[A]

Right?

[C]

You know, like, like.

[B]

But so anyway, no, but that. But to add the. I don't know if this part struck you, but for me, where I was like, oh, my God. Was when Ta Nehisi goes into this, you know, long, thoughtful piece where he speaks about what you're saying about how for, for black people in this country, violence is a constant in politics, political violence is a constant. And this was maybe 20 minutes in, and Ezra says, like, I'm paraphrasing, obviously, but if we zoom out too much and give too much historical context, we miss. We're too deterministic and we miss the moment. Yo, that was for me, like a jaw dropping moment where he basically said, I don't, I don't really care about systemic racism right now.

[C]

I've had white people do that. To me in my life, the same exact thing. And that, that's literally what people like, you know, who's a white racist on the Republic. That's what they do. Like they say, you know, let's not look at history.

[A]

How long are we talking about?

[C]

Right. Yes, that's what they do. And he's doing the same thing. And I'm like, dog, do you know what you're doing right now? And I. And so anyway, we're talking about him. But now let's zoom out to the Democratic Party or the Democratic establishment. This is how they move. So, you know, I'm the crazy one in Congress because I think we should have universal child care and paid leave and affordable housing for every American. And I speak out about it. I'm the crazy one because I'm yelling in the hallway at Thomas Massie about gun violence. So why don't you do anything? We just have more children. I'm crazy because I'm losing my shit in this place. Because we have a new mass shooting every month or multiple times a month or a week, depending on the community. And we know. And we're just going about our day like that. It would drive me crazy. And so but for them, it's just the ideology. It aligns to one part of the caste system and it's designed to just maintain that place. And so, and, and the right feels it too. That's why Trump's initial running on draining the swamp and criticism of the. It works because rural white people feel the same way. Like, this is some bs, Right. So it's. That's actually a unifying thing. If we could have the right leader bring. Bring it together properly.

[A]

Yeah. Some measure of populism. The only thing I will say about Ezra's sort of like inability to understand or regardless of whether it's willful or not in terms of like to understand. To understand enough just basic that he wouldn't have written that about Charlie Kirk. Although I think maybe it was just sort of a lazy. Like I just watched, you know, five minutes him at a college. But I will say he did very similar thing to me as another white Jewish liberal, essentially when we were talking about. About sort of broadly what impacts politics. He's very consciously. I think, I think it's a. I was. I've always had a perspective because I remember when he was an intern at American Prospect and, and, and so it's been 20 years. I followed his, his trajectory and I always thought it was an obliviousness, but I think there's actually like there's brand management that's going on there and a sense that, like, that same sort of dynamic of these are going to. There are certain doors I need to keep open that maintain my. My status wherever it is. And one of them is to sort of like, ride above at various times, some measure of investment in politics, like emotional investment, intellectual investment. Like, it's. It's there. There's always an attitude of like, whoa, you're getting carried away type of thing. Yeah.

[C]

We got to maintain this thing lest I. You. I lose my. My position.

[A]

Yeah. In.

[C]

In this whole grand scheme of things. Right.

[A]

And, you know, the iron law of institutions, I think, is what Kevin Drum used to say. Like, someone would rather be a top, you know, would you like to ride the bench on the varsity team or be the captain of the jv? Like, that's sort of the.

[C]

Yeah. And you're. You're progressive, man. You're not liberal.

[A]

I know, I know, but we gotta say that. Yes.

[C]

Because when I first got into politics.

[A]

No, I'm to the left of liberal. Yes.

[C]

Yeah. When I. When I first got into politics and people would speak that way, I didn't know what they meant. Like, liberal versus progressive. I was like, oh, that's. That's interesting. And then in the 2024 cycle, I got introduced to the real Westchester County, New York, and it was just mad liberals. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? These liberals, those who, like, in 2020, Black Lives Matter, George, Floyd, they were progressive for five seconds. You know, 2024, they were all liberals. They was like, jamal, you better vote for that extra 14 billion to Israel. Like, yo, they already. They already defended themselves. This is like December. Right. You know, they already defended themselves. I don't think they need 14 billion more to keep going. Jamal, we can't support you if you don't. I thought you were Jews for Jamal. Like, this was a Jews for Jamal call. I was on. I thought y' all were my people. They all. They shifted. They went from progressive to liberal.

[B]

But isn't that, though, exactly what Ezra was saying about we're getting weak? It. It's. The Zionist is the same thing. History started on October 7th, apparently. And then. Let's not look too back far into history and deal with, like, the whole slavery.

[C]

Someone tell me that we have to start this conversation. I. October 7th.

[B]

There you go.

[A]

I had that conversation at the breakfast last night.

[B]

That's what Ezra said to Coats.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

I mean, isn't that. This isn't that liberal ideology? To a degree.

[C]

And it's him saying, why are we losing? Well, why aren't we winning? Well, we're not winning because we're not aligned enough to Steve Bannon and Charlie Kirk and, and, and, and Ben Shapiro and, you know, Nick Fuente. Like, we're not aligned enough to. We got to go a little bit. But again, full circle to the point I made about like the D triple C and Democrats in these, in these swing districts. Right. Like, again, you have people in these districts which I would make the argument they're probably more progressive, but they're not voting because they're like, you're all full of crap. I'm not participating. But if we actually engage them in a way that was authentic and really rooted in making a strong democracy healthy for everyone, I think we could increase voter turnout and we're raising hundreds of millions of dollars every cycle. Why don't we micro target or strategically target the people who haven't voted, the zero prime voters, you know, that's, that could change things.

[A]

All right, well, Jamaal Bowman, it has been a real pleasure.

[C]

Thank you.

[A]

So much fun to have you in studio and have you and really appreciate the work that you have done and are doing. Thank you for making AIPAC toxic or at least making people aware of what they do and love to have you back. And hopefully we will have a cause to celebrate in about a month from now. Yes, the Mamdani hopefully win.

[C]

Absolutely. Appreciate you. Thanks for having us.

[A]

Thanks again. All right, we're going to take a quick break, head into the fun half of the program. We'll be right back after this. Oh, just a reminder, it's your support that makes this so possible. You can become a member. Join the majorityreport.com Also Just Coffee Co op, fair trade coffee and use the coupon code. Majority get 10% off. Matt, you want to talk left reckoning quick. Yeah, left recording. We got 50,000 subscribers.

[C]

Thanks, everybody for doing that.

[A]

So, yeah, I appreciate it. Pushed a little bit hard this week, but we got there.

[C]

So happy about that. So anybody who's not there, subscribe.

[A]

All right, quick break. Fun half, three months from now, six months from now, nine months from now. And I don't think it's going to be the same as it looks like in six months from now. And I don't know if it's necessarily going to be better six months from now than it is three months from now, but I think around 18 months out, we're going to look back and go like, wow, but what is that going on? It's nuts. Wait A second. Hold on. Hold on for a second. Emma. Welcome to the program, Matt. What is up, everyone? Fun hat. No M key.

[C]

You did it.

[A]

Fun half.

[B]

Let's go, Brandon.

[C]

Let's go, Brandon.

[A]

Fun crap. Bradley, you want to say hello?

[C]

Sorry to disappoint everyone. I'm just a random guy.

[A]

It's all the boys today.

[B]

Fundamentally false. No. I'm sorry. Women.

[A]

Stop talking for a second. Let me finish.

[C]

Where is this coming from?

[A]

Dude. But.

[C]

Dude, you want to smoke this?

[A]

7A.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

The zinc, yes. Is this me? Is it me? It is you.

[C]

Is this me? A lot of it's me.

[A]

I think it is you. Who is you. No sound. Every single freaking day. What's on your mind?

[C]

We can discuss free markets and we can discuss capitalism.

[A]

I'm gonna go snow white. Libertarians. They're so stupid. Though common sense says of course.

[B]

Gobbledygook.

[A]

We nailed him.

[B]

So what's 79 plus 21?

[A]

Challenge.

[C]

Matt, I'm positively quivering.

[A]

I believe 96. I want to say. 8 5, 7, 2, 1, 0. 85 5, 0, 1, 1, half.

[B]

3, 8, 9, 11. 3. $400.

[A]

$1900. 5, 4. $3 trillion. Sold. It's a zero sum gate, actually.

[B]

You're making things glasses.

[A]

But let me say this. You call satire.

[C]

Sam goes satire on top of it all.

[A]

My favorite part about you is just.

[B]

Like every day, all day.

[C]

Like everything you do.

[A]

Without a doubt. Hey, buddy. We see you. All right, folks, folks, folks.

[B]

It's just the week being weeded out, obviously.

[A]

Sun's out, guns out. I. I don't know.

[C]

But you should know.

[A]

People just don't.

[C]

Like to entertain ideas anymore.

[A]

I have a question. Who cares?

[C]

Our chat is enabled, folks.

[A]

I love it.

[B]

I do love that.

[A]

Gotta jump. Gotta be quick. I gotta jump. I'm losing it, bro. Two o', clock, we're already late and the guy's being a dick. So screw him. Sent to a gulag.

[B]

Outrageous.

[A]

Like, what is wrong with you?

[C]

Love you.

[A]

Bye. Love you.

[C]

Bye.

[A]

Bye.