The Majority Report with Sam Seder

Episode 3596

Title: The Existential Threat from the Right's Attack on Science
Date: October 6, 2025
Guest: Dr. Michael Mann, co-author (with Dr. Peter Hotez) of "Science Under Siege"

Episode Overview

This episode features an in-depth interview with Dr. Michael Mann, climatologist and director of the Center for Science, Sustainability, and the Media at the University of Pennsylvania. Dr. Mann discusses his new book, co-authored with Dr. Peter Hotez, Science Under Siege: How to Fight the Five Most Powerful Forces That Threaten Our World. The conversation focuses on the coordinated assault on science from the political right, its roots, mechanisms, and the existential danger it poses to democracy and the future of civilization. The episode offers a sobering yet urgent call to action—both for scientists and the broader public.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Evolution and Escalation of Attacks on Science

• Historical Roots of Science Attacks

  • Dr. Mann notes the shift from science-specific denial (e.g., tobacco, lead, gun studies) to a broader assault on all science relevant to policy:

    "It was sort of PTSD for me... attacks on climate science go back more than two and a half decades, when we published the now well-known Hockey Stick Curve." (25:19, Dr. Mann)

• From Localized Tactics to a Weaponized Industry

  • The tactics used by the tobacco industry in sowing doubt have been adopted across multiple fronts, now aimed at discrediting all facts that threaten powerful interests.
  • Quote from industry documents: "Doubt is our product" (28:16, Dr. Mann).

The "Five P's" Threatening Science (33:17)

1. Plutocrats

   • Billionaire influencers like Elon Musk and Rupert Murdoch use their platforms (e.g., Twitter/X, Fox News) to spread misinformation.
   • Russian and Saudi wealth, as major petrostates, are leveraging social media to destabilize democratic discourse and promote climate skepticism.
   • "Elon Musk has bought Twitter and weaponized it... Fox News... is the largest media disseminator of misinformation..." (33:17, Dr. Mann)

2. Petrostates

   • Russia and Saudi Arabia have aligned interests with fossil fuel billionaires in perpetuating climate inaction to keep oil prices high.
   • —"They want to do both: destabilize Western civilization and enable their business model at the same time." (35:55, Dr. Mann)

3. Press

   • Both conservative media and "legacy" media (e.g., NYT, Washington Post) are complicit; performative neutrality often results in false equivalence and amplification of fringe or denialist positions.
   • Example: NYT running op-eds promoting geoengineering rather than emissions reduction; mainstreaming COVID "lab leak" theories.
   • —"The mainstream media is so guilty of what we call performative neutrality." (37:08, Dr. Mann)

4. Pros & Propagandists

   • Industry-funded experts, "public health influencers," and figures like RFK Jr. (now HHS Secretary) push junk science and miracle cures that undermine evidence-based medicine, feeding a lucrative "health freedom" movement.
   • —"They make money selling miracle cures... They need to discredit the public health community to sell their product." (41:21, Dr. Mann)

5. Political Structure/Policy

   • The erosion of objective reality and science-based policy empowers anti-democratic, authoritarian actors.
   • —"A world without objective truth... is a world where the bad actors reign, run free—and that's what they've been working towards for decades." (31:42, Dr. Mann)

How Science and Scientists Are Outgunned

• Asymmetric Warfare

  • Scientists, motivated by fact and nuance, are at a rhetorical and resource disadvantage vs. well-funded propagandists:

    "We're trying to build something. They're trying to tear it down. There's a fundamental asymmetry." (51:09, Dr. Mann)

  • The goal of the right: sow confusion, not win arguments.

    "They just have to confuse. We need to educate." (51:09, Dr. Mann)

• Guidance for Scientists

  • Be visible, speak truth to power, work in coalitions for strength and protection.
  • Institutions should foster science communication, not expect all scientists to be communicators (63:17, Dr. Mann).

The Political Imperative & Social Movements

• Restoring Democracy Is Essential

  • Dr. Mann stresses that without political reform, all other scientific and communicative tactics have limited impact.

    "If we don't win back our federal government for the side of science... it's hard to see a way forward." (54:00, Dr. Mann)

  • Lays out the urgency of the upcoming elections, warning of potential autocratic subversion.

• International Context—China & The Global Race

  • "China is an ally when it comes to the battle for a livable planet... they're leading now." (57:03, Dr. Mann)
  • U.S. must decide whether to be part of the solution or be left behind as other nations take leadership in scientific and technological advance.

• The Need for Social and Civic Infrastructure

  • Unions, NGOs, and grassroots organizations are needed as counterweights to organized money.
  • —"All the United States gets to determine here is what it is going to do moving forward... China, Europe are going to prosper..." (71:12, Dr. Mann)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• "Doubt is our product."
  – Dr. Michael Mann quoting internal tobacco industry memos on the playbook now used for climate and other science denial (28:16)

• "A world without objective truth... is a world where the bad actors reign, run free—and that's what they've been working towards for decades."
  – Dr. Michael Mann (31:42)

• "We are at a juncture—an existential battle for the future of humanity as we know it."
  – Dr. Michael Mann on the stakes of fighting science denial (53:08)

• "They have to sow confusion, not win the argument."
  – Dr. Michael Mann on the tactics of anti-science actors (51:09)

• "If we're not out there [communicating], we leave a vacuum, and we know whom that vacuum is going to be filled with."
  – Dr. Michael Mann (64:55)

• On performative neutrality in media:
  – "The mainstream media is so guilty of what we call performative neutrality... elevation of anti-science to the same level as the actual consensus of the world's scientists." (37:08)

• On the role of billionaires in owning the media:
  – "Every day there's a new headline of a new... mainstream media organization being bought out by a conservative plutocrat." (39:28, Dr. Mann)

Timestamps for Major Segments

• [25:19] - Dr. Mann on the historical evolution of attacks on climate science
• [28:16] - The tobacco industry playbook; "Doubt is our product"
• [33:17] - Introduction and breakdown of the 'Five P's'
• [37:08] - Critique of media’s performative neutrality and role in science denial
• [41:19] - Pros, propagandists, and the emergence of the health freedom movement
• [51:09] - Asymmetry between science communicators and propagandists
• [53:08] - Strategies for scientists; the existential stakes
• [57:03] - China as a global science/tech leader; U.S. being left behind
• [62:48] - On building science communication as a discipline
• [68:18] - On regulating social media and reviving public-interest standards
• [71:12] - The importance of social infrastructure and collective movements

Tone and Style

• The tone is urgent, candid, and intellectual, with a persistent sense of high stakes and concern for the future of both democracy and science.
• Seder and Dr. Mann alternate between analytic, policy-centered language and sharp, at times irreverent, commentary on the absurdity and danger of anti-science actors.
• Moments of humor and personal recollection (references to Carl Sagan, Lord of the Rings) provide context and break up the gravity of the subject.

Conclusion / Action Items

• For Scientists: Be brave, speak out, organize, and work to improve public communication.
• For the Public: Engage politically, support science-based policies, and be aware of disinformation tactics.
• For Institutions: Invest in science communication as a discipline; defend regulatory and civic structures.
• For Everyone: Vote, organize, and reject misinformation—defending science is defending democracy itself.

Final Note:
Dr. Mann's new book with Dr. Peter Hotez, Science Under Siege, is recommended for deeper understanding and action strategies.

End of summary.