3596 - The Existential Threat from the Right's Attack on Science w/ Dr. Michael Mann

Summary

The Majority Report with Sam Seder

Episode 3596

Title: The Existential Threat from the Right's Attack on Science
Date: October 6, 2025
Guest: Dr. Michael Mann, co-author (with Dr. Peter Hotez) of "Science Under Siege"

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Episode Overview

This episode features an in-depth interview with Dr. Michael Mann, climatologist and director of the Center for Science, Sustainability, and the Media at the University of Pennsylvania. Dr. Mann discusses his new book, co-authored with Dr. Peter Hotez, Science Under Siege: How to Fight the Five Most Powerful Forces That Threaten Our World. The conversation focuses on the coordinated assault on science from the political right, its roots, mechanisms, and the existential danger it poses to democracy and the future of civilization. The episode offers a sobering yet urgent call to action—both for scientists and the broader public.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Evolution and Escalation of Attacks on Science

• Historical Roots of Science Attacks

  • Dr. Mann notes the shift from science-specific denial (e.g., tobacco, lead, gun studies) to a broader assault on all science relevant to policy:

    "It was sort of PTSD for me... attacks on climate science go back more than two and a half decades, when we published the now well-known Hockey Stick Curve." (25:19, Dr. Mann)

• From Localized Tactics to a Weaponized Industry

  • The tactics used by the tobacco industry in sowing doubt have been adopted across multiple fronts, now aimed at discrediting all facts that threaten powerful interests.
  • Quote from industry documents: "Doubt is our product" (28:16, Dr. Mann).

The "Five P's" Threatening Science (33:17)

1. Plutocrats

   • Billionaire influencers like Elon Musk and Rupert Murdoch use their platforms (e.g., Twitter/X, Fox News) to spread misinformation.
   • Russian and Saudi wealth, as major petrostates, are leveraging social media to destabilize democratic discourse and promote climate skepticism.
   • "Elon Musk has bought Twitter and weaponized it... Fox News... is the largest media disseminator of misinformation..." (33:17, Dr. Mann)

2. Petrostates

   • Russia and Saudi Arabia have aligned interests with fossil fuel billionaires in perpetuating climate inaction to keep oil prices high.
   • —"They want to do both: destabilize Western civilization and enable their business model at the same time." (35:55, Dr. Mann)

3. Press

   • Both conservative media and "legacy" media (e.g., NYT, Washington Post) are complicit; performative neutrality often results in false equivalence and amplification of fringe or denialist positions.
   • Example: NYT running op-eds promoting geoengineering rather than emissions reduction; mainstreaming COVID "lab leak" theories.
   • —"The mainstream media is so guilty of what we call performative neutrality." (37:08, Dr. Mann)

4. Pros & Propagandists

   • Industry-funded experts, "public health influencers," and figures like RFK Jr. (now HHS Secretary) push junk science and miracle cures that undermine evidence-based medicine, feeding a lucrative "health freedom" movement.
   • —"They make money selling miracle cures... They need to discredit the public health community to sell their product." (41:21, Dr. Mann)

5. Political Structure/Policy

   • The erosion of objective reality and science-based policy empowers anti-democratic, authoritarian actors.
   • —"A world without objective truth... is a world where the bad actors reign, run free—and that's what they've been working towards for decades." (31:42, Dr. Mann)

How Science and Scientists Are Outgunned

• Asymmetric Warfare

  • Scientists, motivated by fact and nuance, are at a rhetorical and resource disadvantage vs. well-funded propagandists:

    "We're trying to build something. They're trying to tear it down. There's a fundamental asymmetry." (51:09, Dr. Mann)

  • The goal of the right: sow confusion, not win arguments.

    "They just have to confuse. We need to educate." (51:09, Dr. Mann)

• Guidance for Scientists

  • Be visible, speak truth to power, work in coalitions for strength and protection.
  • Institutions should foster science communication, not expect all scientists to be communicators (63:17, Dr. Mann).

The Political Imperative & Social Movements

• Restoring Democracy Is Essential

  • Dr. Mann stresses that without political reform, all other scientific and communicative tactics have limited impact.

    "If we don't win back our federal government for the side of science... it's hard to see a way forward." (54:00, Dr. Mann)

  • Lays out the urgency of the upcoming elections, warning of potential autocratic subversion.

• International Context—China & The Global Race

  • "China is an ally when it comes to the battle for a livable planet... they're leading now." (57:03, Dr. Mann)
  • U.S. must decide whether to be part of the solution or be left behind as other nations take leadership in scientific and technological advance.

• The Need for Social and Civic Infrastructure

  • Unions, NGOs, and grassroots organizations are needed as counterweights to organized money.
  • —"All the United States gets to determine here is what it is going to do moving forward... China, Europe are going to prosper..." (71:12, Dr. Mann)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• "Doubt is our product."
  – Dr. Michael Mann quoting internal tobacco industry memos on the playbook now used for climate and other science denial (28:16)

• "A world without objective truth... is a world where the bad actors reign, run free—and that's what they've been working towards for decades."
  – Dr. Michael Mann (31:42)

• "We are at a juncture—an existential battle for the future of humanity as we know it."
  – Dr. Michael Mann on the stakes of fighting science denial (53:08)

• "They have to sow confusion, not win the argument."
  – Dr. Michael Mann on the tactics of anti-science actors (51:09)

• "If we're not out there [communicating], we leave a vacuum, and we know whom that vacuum is going to be filled with."
  – Dr. Michael Mann (64:55)

• On performative neutrality in media:
  – "The mainstream media is so guilty of what we call performative neutrality... elevation of anti-science to the same level as the actual consensus of the world's scientists." (37:08)

• On the role of billionaires in owning the media:
  – "Every day there's a new headline of a new... mainstream media organization being bought out by a conservative plutocrat." (39:28, Dr. Mann)

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Timestamps for Major Segments

• [25:19] - Dr. Mann on the historical evolution of attacks on climate science
• [28:16] - The tobacco industry playbook; "Doubt is our product"
• [33:17] - Introduction and breakdown of the 'Five P's'
• [37:08] - Critique of media’s performative neutrality and role in science denial
• [41:19] - Pros, propagandists, and the emergence of the health freedom movement
• [51:09] - Asymmetry between science communicators and propagandists
• [53:08] - Strategies for scientists; the existential stakes
• [57:03] - China as a global science/tech leader; U.S. being left behind
• [62:48] - On building science communication as a discipline
• [68:18] - On regulating social media and reviving public-interest standards
• [71:12] - The importance of social infrastructure and collective movements

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Tone and Style

• The tone is urgent, candid, and intellectual, with a persistent sense of high stakes and concern for the future of both democracy and science.
• Seder and Dr. Mann alternate between analytic, policy-centered language and sharp, at times irreverent, commentary on the absurdity and danger of anti-science actors.
• Moments of humor and personal recollection (references to Carl Sagan, Lord of the Rings) provide context and break up the gravity of the subject.

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Conclusion / Action Items

• For Scientists: Be brave, speak out, organize, and work to improve public communication.
• For the Public: Engage politically, support science-based policies, and be aware of disinformation tactics.
• For Institutions: Invest in science communication as a discipline; defend regulatory and civic structures.
• For Everyone: Vote, organize, and reject misinformation—defending science is defending democracy itself.

Final Note:
Dr. Mann's new book with Dr. Peter Hotez, Science Under Siege, is recommended for deeper understanding and action strategies.

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End of summary.

Transcript

[Emma Vigeland]

You are listening to a free version of the Majority Report. Support this [e-mail] and get an extra hour of content daily.

[Sam Seder]

The Majority Report with Sam Cedar. It is Monday, October 6, 2025. My name is Sam Seder. This is the five time award winning Majority Report. We are broadcasting live steps from the industrially ravaged Gowanus Canal in the heartland of America, downtown Brooklyn, USA. On the program today, Dr. Michael Mann, climatologist, geophysicist, director of the center of Science, Sustainability and the Media at University of Pennsylvania and also perhaps his co author, Professor Peter Hotez, professor of Pediatrics and Molecular Virology and Microbiology Biology at Baylor College of Medicine. It's Monday folks. They have co authored a book, science Under Siege, how to fight the five Most Powerful Forces that Threaten Our World. Meanwhile, also on the program, ICE continues its assault on Chicago as Mayor Brandon Johnson makes city property off limits for any federal immigration work. Meanwhile, Trump shopping for military force to invade Portland as a MAGA judge issues a temporary restraining order. Illinois sues the Trump administration over the National Guard deployment after reports of torture and mistreatment. Israel deports at least 300 of the flotilla activists still holding at last count nearly 140 who are by all accounts hostages held by the Israeli government. South Carolina judge who was targeted by Stephen Miller has her house burned down. Supreme Court rejects Ghislaine Maxwell's appeal. Not uncoincidentally, Mike Johnson still has not sat Latest elected Democratic congresswoman.

[Dr. Michael Mann]

Or.

[Sam Seder]

Also known as the 218th vote on releasing the Epstein files. Trump claims over the weekend that the United States has killed more Venezuelans in a boat. It is day six of the government shutdown. Vaguely. Seems like the Democrats may be winning the messaging fight. Roy Cooper breaks fundraising numbers in North Carolina Senate race. And speaking of polling, California Prop 50, which is the redistricting proposition, now polling at 54%. All this and more on today's Majority Report. Welcome ladies and gentlemen. It is fun day Monday. Fun day Monday. And as you can tell by the enthusiasm in Emma's voice, we're certainly feeling the fun and the sirens in the background. Yeah, exactly.

[Emma Vigeland]

Hopefully not for us.

[Sam Seder]

Thanks for joining us. At the beginning of the week, the weekend was total crap show, really. Starting Friday afternoon, I think I spent like the next 16 hours straight on Twitter, so that would have taken me to about 4 in the morning. That tracks with my lack of sleep. We have more information on the ICE attack on that Chicago apartment building. It appears that the landlords called ICE because They had many, many, many code violations and are now looking to evict all of the residents there because of course, ICE came in and destroyed the place. So playing the game called capitalism. Yeah, I would also say insurance fraud on top of that.

[Emma Vigeland]

Well, fraud is a part of the whole deal. It seems like there's been some good local reporting on this. I think this is called Block Club Chicago. It's a nonprofit paper there. But they basically reported that the ownership, it traces back to this Wisconsin based investor, Trinity Flood. And according to public records, Flood is facing a $27 million foreclosure lawsuit for not making loan payments on three South Shore properties she bought for $18 million in 2020. So maybe a Covid deal. The city also filed suit in February against her LLC over 15 building code violations at the South Search Drive property dating back to 2023. So they're trying to clear out the property by neglecting it, it seems like, because it's quite expensive. And what better way to do that than to have ICE come in, terrorize your tenants and trash the place.

[Sam Seder]

Very reminiscent of the last report that we had of trend agua infiltrating an apartment building. That one, I think Ohio was Colorado, Colorado in the run up to the election. Meanwhile, in Chicago, ICE has gone completely out of control. We have a lot of clips that will play later in the program, including the Chicago Police Department getting tear gassed by ice. We have a lot of footage of Chicagoans pushing back against ICE in multiple different ways. But just to give you a sense of how completely out of control, I mean, unprofessional, forget about these people are just thugs. They're thugs, they're goons. They don't care about public safety whatsoever. As far as they're concerned, they're in enemy territory. Now this ICE guy stuck in traffic, it's possible that there was a scooter in front of him that had stopped on purpose. Regardless, there's absolutely no, no justification for what you're about to see. You should also know this is across the street from a school. And a 2 year old who was in a nearby car had to be taken to the hospital because they were overcome with this tear gas. Play this clip. Look at the white car. That's ICE Mass man attempts to throw tear gas, basically throws it on himself. Bounce off the mirror, something. Look at that they're throwing. They're still throwing tear gas from multiple cars. And this stuff lingers.

[Emma Vigeland]

Oh my gosh. I mean, for hours.

[Sam Seder]

If you've ever seen people, you know, behind them Trying to get out of the way because the wind's blowing in there.

[Emma Vigeland]

If you're ever even close to tear gas, I mean, just in covering protests, I got some, you know, in my airspace and you're like, I was not even in the thick of it. And like teary, teary red eyes for hours and hours. Imagine if you were right near there.

[Sam Seder]

Imagine if you're a two year old you sent to the hospital. It's not like ICE has any compunction about harming children. We've seen multiple occasions where they have left children along the side of a highway without their parents. They have shoved children out of the way when they're ripping their parents away from them in whether it's like hallways in front of courtrooms. This is a clip. This was from Friday. Chicago alderperson Jesse Fuentes is at the hospital. And this is posted by Chicago Tribune reporter Jake Sheridan's X account. Here are ICE agents confronting the alderperson and they want a person in the hospital. The hospital is private property. And so the alderman is asking our alderperson, I should say is asking for a warrant.

[Dr. Michael Mann]

No, he has constitutional rights. Do you have a sign?

[Sam Seder]

No, you need to leave.

[Dr. Michael Mann]

Turn around.

[Sam Seder]

Turn around and leave that. He is under arrest.

[Dr. Michael Mann]

I'm going to arrest. You are going to be placed under arrest. Do you have a sign you need.

[Sam Seder]

That's a guy. Somebody go in the hallway and get me a little bit of anger.

[Dr. Michael Mann]

Can somebody go in the hallway and get Lisa for me?

[Sam Seder]

This is an otter person who's being under arrest.

[Dr. Michael Mann]

I need my other staffer who's in the hallway by registration to come here, please.

[Sam Seder]

Can somebody get my staffer, please?

[Dr. Michael Mann]

This is the hospital. Do you have a signal? I am asking. I am asking. I did not touch you.

[Sam Seder]

He told you to leave. I didn't touch you.

[Dr. Michael Mann]

I asked you if you had.

[Sam Seder]

Is Lisa still out there?

[Dr. Michael Mann]

It is very simple. It is very simple. That man has constitutional rights.

[Sam Seder]

I did not touch you.

[Dr. Michael Mann]

It is a public space. I am not trespassing. I am asking you, do you have a signed judicial warrant? I am asking, do you have a sign to dismoire for him?

[Sam Seder]

It is a.

[Dr. Michael Mann]

We do not need a warrant for somebody.

[Sam Seder]

Guy wearing a mask. For the people listening.

[Dr. Michael Mann]

Can you keep recording? I need a call.

[Sam Seder]

Oh, that's when the guy finds out that he's just arrested an alderman and, well, whoopsie.

[Emma Vigeland]

And that's when they know they're being videotaped. Let's just like there are a bunch of other instances when you're talking about the mistreatment of children, that horrific ICE raid on the building that we just spoke about. The reporting was about how some of the children were naked outside. Sometimes children sleep naked. That's something that happens. And there's not video footage of it. So you have all these right wing bots casting aspersions on the reporting and it's just absolute insanity because when we have these recordings, they dismiss it entirely.

[Sam Seder]

Anyway, we've got a lot of other clips that we're going to be playing in the context of the show.

[Emma Vigeland]

Also all that Alderman Digg was asked to see a warrant. I mean, God, even in the decades of propaganda that's been on tv, we know our rights.

[Sam Seder]

Seven here. Oh no, this is. Yeah, we'll play. Well, yeah, let's play this. This is number 13, right? Yeah, let's play this one. We had mentioned the other day that you don't necessarily have to ally yourself with cops in these protests. Although also be clear, ICE is now spending millions of dollars, millions of dollars putting out ads. This, according to the ap, they're spending millions of dollars on television advertising in select metro areas around the country aimed at recruiting local officers frustrated with their city's restrictions on immigration enforcement into Donald Trump's mass deportation efforts. So they are targeting cops because they know that this is going to be a problem. Remember, they have $30 billion. $30 billion to hire 10,000 more deportation officers. Thugs. That's part of the 77 billion that the Trump regime is looking for to spend broadly on ice. The rest of it all goes to private prison companies, but in Chicago. Don't know the circumstances. But it's quite clear from the video that this is the case. Ice, Mace, or I should say tear gassed Chicago Police Department officers. Take a look at this. And there's other. Do we have that other clip? There was a second clip of, of that too. Nevertheless, a bunch of them, not just those two. There's another clip with at least a half a dozen other Chicago PD who were clearly tear gassed. And that's the message for the cops. ICE doesn't care about you either. They're certainly not there to protect your community. So they replace you. I mean, the abolished the police, I guess, and just replace them with Stephen Miller's Gestapo. Gestapo.

[Emma Vigeland]

Well, it's also get on board or get out of the way. Get on board with like the machinery that has been gifted to police departments over the past two decades. The leftover basically wartime machinery that we've given out to police departments. Now we're superseding those folks to just have a federal Gestapo do it instead. But what's the whole point of doing.

[Sam Seder]

This for cops if you're just going to have Stephen Miller's stormtroopers?

[Emma Vigeland]

I mean, it really is like this is the end result of the erosion of our rights. And we brought the war on terror here to domestic soil. And immigrants and folks in those communities as well are the ones on the front lines.

[Sam Seder]

In a minute, we're going to be talking to Dr. Michael Mann, climatologist, geophysicist, director of the center of Science and Sustainability and the Media at University of Pennsylvania, co author of Science Under Siege. How to fight the five Most Powerful Forces that threaten Our World. First, a couple words from our sponsors. This episode of the Majority Report is brought to you by Wild Grain. They're a new sponsor and it's awesome stuff. What did, what did Brian call it? Pa Bake. I can't remember. Wild Grain Par Bake. Par Bake. It is the first bake from frozen subscription box for artisanal breads, seasonal pastries and fresh pastas. All the items conveniently bake in 25 minutes or less. This is not store bought stuff. Wild grain uses a slow fermentation process that's easier on your belly. It's richer in nutrients and antioxidants. It's made with simple ingredients you can pronounce. I will also tell you this stuff is absolutely 100% delicious. Wild grains boxes are fully customizable. They're adding seasonal and limited time products for you to enjoy. In addition to their classic box, they now feature a gluten free box and a plant bakes box. I've made Saul a bunch of croissants that we got some apple cider donuts, very nice. Some ravioli with squash and I can't remember what kind of cheese, like a ricotta cheese I think, which was amazing. But it's like it's homemade pasta. But they have like not Legos but like the sort of. I can't remember what the name of it is, but they're like cookies that are ridges on it. I don't know. But great bread. Really fantastic. Super easy. You get it in a box. Almost all the stuff in there is recyclable. You put it in your freezer and you pull it out. When you need it, you drop it on a tray. 20 minutes later, 15 minutes later, 25 minutes later, you have fresh baked bread. It's amazing. This fall, treat yourself and your family to warm sourdough breads and seasonal baked Goods from Wild Grain. Rumor has it they have apple cider donuts I can confirm and pumpkin cinnamon biscuits, so get them before these seasonal items sell out. For a limited time, Wild Grain is offering our listeners $30 off their first box, plus free croissants in every box when you go to wild grain.com/majority to start your subscription. Warm croissants may be the absolute best thing you've ever eaten. And you heard me here. Free croissants in every box. 30 bucks off your first box when you go to wild grain.com/mainiority. That's wild grain.com/mainoriorior. Or you can use promo code Majority at checkout. Don't miss their seasonal products. Do yourself a favor. Try. Try it once. You will. I guarantee you will enjoy this. It's delicious and it's so much. Well, I can't even compare it to actually cooking bread from scratch because I've never done that. You don't make croissants? No.

[Emma Vigeland]

Sounds hard.

[Sam Seder]

I know it's surprising. I know I come off as a make my own croissant type of guy. You always wear a chef hat when you're walking in here? Yeah. Oh, all right. Let's talk about something else. That is one of my favorite things, too. Of course, I now wear my sweatshirt is almost like a daily. My hoodie is my almost like daily thing because it is awesome. It works in every temperature. It's like lightweight but warm. It is warm, but it's also cool. It is a cozy earth hoodie. And they have joggers that are exactly the same material. And they're fantastic. They. They maintain their form. I guess I don't know how to say that in a way that, like, you don't feel embarrassed walking around in them. They look like pants. They're structured, but they're also incredibly soft. And they're cool, but they're warm. I don't know, really. The sheets are also exactly the same way. They are temperature regulating. They are guaranteed to give you a comfortable night's sleep. They're made from viscous viscose rather, which is from bamboo. They naturally wick away heat and moisture from your body, help you sleep several degrees cooler, which is extremely important to me. They have something called the bubble cuddle blanket. I've not tried this, but it is an ultra soft blanket that has a combination of comfort and style. It is a midweight faux fur blanket that's great for lounging anywhere in your home. I think my kids and my cats would like that. Honestly. The bedding is fantastic. Incredibly soft, incredibly temperature regulating. The hoodie and the the joggers super comfortable. When the Bedding 100 night sleep trial you try them out. If you don't love them, you return them hassle free. It's got a 10 year warranty because frankly when you feel this comfortable when you're sleeping, you'd want it to last for 10 years. Thanks to Cozy Earth for sponsoring this episode. Head to cozyearth.com use our code majority report one word for up to 20% off. That's cozyearth.com code is majority report. And if you get a post purchase survey, tell them you heard about Cozy Earth right here on the Majority Report. Home isn't just where you live, it's how you feel. Cozy Earth Use the code Majority Report. We'll put all that information in the podcast and YouTube description. Quick break. When we come back, Dr. Michael Mann, Sam, it's we are back. Sam Ceder, Emma Vigland on the Majority Report. It is a pleasure to welcome back to the program Dr. Michael Mann, climatologist, geophysicist and director of the center for Science, Sustainability and the Media at the University of Pennsylvania, co author with Dr. Peter Hotez, professor of pediatrics and Molecular virology and Microbiology at Baylor College of Medicine. Their latest book, science under Siege, how to Fight the Five Most Powerful Forces that Threaten Our World. Professor, I know that Dr. Hotez may be joining us in a bit. It is great to see you again. We have had many conversations over the years about in particular, I mean, both about climate change, but about specifically. I know you and I have had this conversation for quite some time about science, scientists role in this sort of new world, which is now probably 10, 12, 20 years old, of dealing mostly in the context of climate change, but the sort of the I guess the palette has extended to all sort of science in a broad stroke to pushing back on this. Tell us a little bit you've written about the five Ps, but before we get there, just tell us about like over the course of your career, how the environment has changed, not literally the environment, but the environment to talk about the environment.

[Dr. Michael Mann]

Yeah. Thanks, Sam. It's great to be back with you. And indeed, over the years we've talked many times about climate disinformation and this concerted effort by bad actors to sort of cloud the public discourse to prevent us from taking the needed action. And you know, it was sort of PTSD for me because the attacks on me, the attacks on climate science go back more than two and A half decades really in my case back to the late 1990s when we published the now well known Hockey Stick Curve that really laid bare the reality and threat of human caused warming that made it a threat to fossil fuel interests and those promoting their agenda. And so for me back about five years ago, it was PTSD to watch my friends, my colleagues in the public health space, Peter, Peter Hotez, my co author Tony Fauci and others come under attack by folks, the very same folks using the same tactics, looking to discredit them and their science for ideological reasons. And so I reached out to Peter. I felt like we had lessons to provide to them. We became friends and we decided we had a book to write here about as you allude to this sort of metastasization of what was once this sort of, to use a public health analogy, a localized cancer that is now metastasized to impact not just all of science or any areas of science that are policy relevant, but fact based discourse itself.

[Sam Seder]

How much do you think this. I mean it seems to me there's sort of like two different players who sort of cross over at least, at least in the genesis of this. Because you know, and I only know this quote because it included in a book I wrote in 2006 from Gertrude Hilmer Farb, who is Irving Kristol's or was Irving Kristol's wife, Bill Kristol's mother.

[Dr. Michael Mann]

Interesting.

[Sam Seder]

She in, in 2005 she was talking about the mechanistic and reductionist interpretation of all human life, including its emot intellectual dimensions in the name of Darwinism. This is more than science, it's scientism. Scientism with a vengeance. And science that is now presumed to be the only access to comprehensive truth. They have been attacking in the conservative movement science for decades and decades because they this narrative ultimately helps them whether it is we shouldn't have lead in the gasolines, we shouldn't pour mercury into our water. And so when climate change comes along, there's a sort of almost like a pre built mechanism to attack the science.

[Dr. Michael Mann]

Absolutely. Yeah. There was a pre existing playbook. It was the playbook that was used by, in all of these other cases you cite, it was used by the gun lobby. Most famously and most relevantly, it was used by the tobacco industry. And there is a document, sorry, there is a line from the reports that the tobacco industry was forced to make public as part of a settlement with a number of states attorneys general back in the 1990s. They were forced to bride over these internal Documents, one of which I believe it was Brown and Williamson. But this applied to all of the tobacco companies. The tobacco industry doubt is our product. That's a line from the tobacco industry. And what they meant there was they need to sow doubt and confusion about what their own internal research actually validated. Their own internal research showed that their product was killing people. That was bad for their business model. And so they hid that from the public. The fossil fuel industry used exactly that same playbook. And in fact they're now famously internal documents. Exxon mobilized document from 1982 where their own scientists referred to the potential consequences of continued extraction and burning of fossil fuels as catastrophic. That wasn't Al Gore, that wasn't the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, the UN it was Exxon Mobil's own scientists. And as we know, they came out with that report. ExxonMobil apologized and said they would do everything they could. No, of course we don't live in that universe, that alternative universe. No, they hid the report and now we are bearing the brunt of that. If we had acted decades ago, we could have prevented a lot of the damage that we're now seeing. And Sam, you put your finger on something really important here is, you know, what joins these things together and we can talk about, you know, the lockdowns where a threat to the Koch brothers, the largest publicly held fossil fuel interest, and these libertarian funders of sort of the conservative echo chamber front groups and astroturf organizations and producers of misinformation and disinformation. So they had a specific reason to oppose climate action, but they also had a specific reason to oppose the public health messaging on Covid as the pandemic became, as the pandemic started up because lockdowns and stay at home orders, all of these things would, and they did reduce fossil fuel usage, reduce transportation, they would slow down the economy, they would reduce demand for fossil fuels. And that would hurt their bottom line. And so they weaponized misinformation and disinformation to try to oppose those efforts. And ultimately that rabble that they created which was opposed to the messaging of public health scientists would naturally become anti vaxxers as well. And that was truly tragic. That as Peter has pointed out, led to hundreds of thousands of, of unnecessary deaths here in the United States alone. But there's a larger thing here and sorry, that's really what you put your finger on, which was a world without objective truth, a world without trusted messengers, a world without, you know, science based policymaking is a world where the bad actors reign, run free and that's what they want and that's what they've been working towards for a number of decades. And that scarily enough is where we are now.

[Sam Seder]

Yeah. I would add too that there was a paper written by Sam Bagenstos, who is a professor at University of Michigan, on a lot of the COVID era subsidies. And they found that like the, the polling on these subsidies, actually the value of these subsidies people, at least as a political matter was reduced dramatically because those same interests that you're talking about, fossil fuel or just big money, wanted people back at work. And so diminishing the, the, the, the subsidies and stigmatizing them and in keeping people safe, which meant less engaged with things on a day to day measure or you've got to put protections in was just not in their economic interests. Yeah, so absolutely, let's, let's turn to the, to the five P's that you talk about just to sort of organize where these threats come from and what, and what we're getting from each one of these. I do want to talk to you about like sort of the, you know, and then you obviously you have a big part of like going forward, what are the strategies and tactics that we need to employ and who needs to be employing those. But let's start with the first P plutocrats. We've sort of touched on it a little bit, but expand on that.

[Dr. Michael Mann]

Yeah, these are five P's in a pod if you like, and the first of those P's plutocrats. So these are the Elon Musks of the world. Elon Musk has bought Twitter and weaponized it as a massive sort of producer and disseminator of misinformation and disinformation on climate. On COVID 19. It's become sort of a tool for these bad actors to spread their disinformation. Rupert Murdoch, another plutocrat, who of course, a News Corp, Fox News, Wall Street Journal editorial pages. His media empire is the largest media disseminator of misinformation and disinformation. By the way, Elon Musk's buyout of Twitter was leveraged by Saudi Arabia and Russia. Do you think that's a coincidence? It's not. Those are sort of two of the premier Petra states. They don't want climate action, they don't want us to move forward towards renewable energy. And they have weaponized social media using bot armies and troll farms to promote disinformation to prevent, you know, aimed at preventing any public action here there are Other plutocrats as well, many of them fund this massive infrastructure. The Koch brothers we mentioned, who fund this sort of libertarian infrastructure, these various organizations, front groups, misinformation, disinformation, websites that are all aimed at pumping misinformation and disinformation out into the public sphere that opposes science based messaging on climate change or on COVID 19 or anything that in any way threatens their libertarian vision of the world, their agenda.

[Sam Seder]

I have to say I had forgotten. I don't, I mean it just, I don't know why. It had never occurred to me that Russia and for that matter Saudi Arabia, but in particular Russia wouldn't have the same incentive structure as the Koch brothers. The price of oil that Russia sells is, is intimately tied to the price of oil the Koch brothers are going to sell.

[Dr. Michael Mann]

And they are a petrostate, Sam. That is their large.

[Sam Seder]

Of course, of course. It's just that like, because it's Russia, it hadn't occurred to me that they would operate in the same way, that it would be more, you know, to the extent that they want to destabilize things in the United States, it's not necessarily to no end. It is specifically they want to help the forces that will put more money in their pocket like anybody else.

[Dr. Michael Mann]

And it's both, it's both. They want to do both of those things. So it's a, it's a twofer, if you like. And we talk about that in the book Destabilizing Western Civilizations and Enabling their Business Model at the Same Time.

[Emma Vigeland]

And it depends on enclosure. Right. I mean, just to stick on this for just a second, these are dinosaur companies, at least with the fossil fuels that need to delay, delay, delay, as they've been doing for decades, concealing this information for their business model to continue.

[Dr. Michael Mann]

But it also, the dinosaur analogy, by the way, is a good one because we're literally talking about fossil fuels that were buried 100 million years ago or more and they're bringing them to the surface to burn them.

[Emma Vigeland]

Right. And it just is amazing to me how quickly these financial forces were able to completely overtake our communications channels and, and how easily a, an environment of full disinformation where nothing means anything or anything can mean anything. Abetz a fascist project because it creates such an advantage. Or you can start the race so much earlier than everybody else who's catching up to the facts that would be relevant.

[Dr. Michael Mann]

Yeah, well, you know, Emma, I think you've brought us to the last of the P's, the press. And by that we mean the media. Writ large. And obviously the conservative media, the Murdoch media empire, conservative news organizations that promote climate denialism, that promote anti vax rhetoric. But also we take aim in the book at the legacy media, the mainstream media which is so guilty today of what we call performative neutrality. This idea that we have to elevate anti science to the same level as the actual consensus of the world. Scientists balance in favor of accuracy. And on the pages of the Washington Post and the New York Times you will find that sort of misinformation, disinformation or framing that is advantageous to these bad actors. Whether it's the New York Times on Sunday. This was a few weeks ago, a day when we are supposed to be sort of embracing solar energy as part of the clean energy transition. And they wrote, they published an op ed about geoengineering. No, we don't have to reduce carbon emissions. We'll just pump particles into the stratosphere to block out the sun. What harm could possibly come from that? Ironically, yes, that's one way to try to cool down the earth. It actually does block some of the sun so it makes solar energy even less viable. On Sunday they published that. And the Washington Post and the New York Times have platformed the lab leak theory on many occasions. The lab leak theory of COVID 19 though there's no scientific evidence for it, there's no peer reviewed literature behind it, the overwhelming evidence is in favor of zoonotic spillover that bats and pangolins, these viruses are passed along through interactions between different species and ultimately to us. And so that's been a real problem. And the other thing, you know, and Emma, I think you're referring to, you know, you're underscoring this. A lot of our mainstream media are now actually being bought out by plutocrats. Every day there's a new headline of a new. What we used to think of as a mainstream media organization that is being bought out by a conservative plutocrat. What could possibly be the agenda? We know what the agenda is there. They don't care if they return a profit.

[Sam Seder]

We know this with Amazon, we know this now with CBS and perhaps Time Warner, Viacom with Ellison coming in, Barry Weiss who was the lead promoter of Jordan Peterson, Dave Rubin, Weinstein, the Weinstein's.

[Emma Vigeland]

Who are at the, at the forefront of all of this, right where they have, I'm sorry to cut you off Sam, but like this, this, this alternative media, like I guess the way that they present themselves, but they are now in bed with like this plutocrat, Representative Barry Weiss and like that it's this illusion of the democratization of information where it's actually even more insidious than. Than it was 10 years ago.

[Dr. Michael Mann]

Yeah, absolutely, Emma.

[Sam Seder]

In terms of the P's we covered also Petro states simultaneously following the PL. What about the pros, as it were?

[Dr. Michael Mann]

Yeah, and we'll combine the pros and the propagandists. These are the people who are down in the trenches disseminating misinformation and disinformation often making money from doing so. Whether it's fossil fuel industry funded talking heads who are actually paid to promote their talking points in op eds and on news programs, or as Peter has talked about quite a bit, these sort of public health influencers. There's a movement that the sort of. I'm forgetting the exact term that we use, but there's a health movement right now among conservatives that basically rejects the messaging and the wisdom of the public health community and turns to these alternatives.

[Sam Seder]

The sort of maha people.

[Dr. Michael Mann]

Exactly. RFK Jr. Is now the figurehead of that. He's the head of health and human services at the very top of our government. Our policy now is run by, you know, individuals who are tied to this sort of fake health industry and they make money by selling these miracle cures. And people won't buy their miracle cures if they believe in the efficacy of the conventional cures, vaccines and masks and all the other measures that the public health community has been promoting. And so they need to discredit the public health community to sell their product. And that's become an important part of the Maha movement. And when you at those very press conferences, at that press conference where RFK Jr. Was trying to blame vaccines and Tylenol for COVID 19, he was actually marketing for autism. Sorry. For autism. Blaming it for autism. Sorry. He was actually, he mentioned a product that is one of those miracle killed products that one of their, you know, one of their friends is making a whole lot of money marketing.

[Sam Seder]

I mean you really only need to be on instagram for like 10 minutes to get an example of what you're talking about. Like in. If they're not selling something at that moment, it takes about like 60 to 90 days, maybe some number their followers, whatever it is they're talking about. Yeah, dementia or park, you know, like, or even like sleep apnea or whatever it is. There is always like the traditional medicine is not working in this way. Here are the. There's, you know, a study that shows that lysine is going to fix everything about you. And it just so happens That I sell lion's mane, which is also the key ingredient in this. And I, you know, I don't know if lion's mane is going to hurt you.

[Dr. Michael Mann]

Some of these will.

[Sam Seder]

Some of these.

[Dr. Michael Mann]

Yeah. Chloroform, Some of these actually Ivermectin can do real damage. Yeah.

[Sam Seder]

And I have no doubt that there's also, you know, supplements out there. You know, the magnesium helps you sleep and that there are things that are good there. But it is, there is such. And it is very, very difficult to be a layperson and to assess this.

[Dr. Michael Mann]

And to litigate the actual medical science here. And they take advantage of that. In an environment where there's massive misinformation, people don't know who to turn to. They turn to the charlatans. And I remember the term, it's the health freedom movement. And notice how freedom is there, right, because it's trying to tap into sort of the ethos of today's conservative movement. They want to take away your freedom, whether it's the hamburgers and the flights to see grandma because of climate lockdowns. They're not going to let you out of your home anymore. They were actually using the same messaging when it came to COVID 19 because it fed that same sort of conspiratorial. These people want to take away your freedom. And so you're right, there's a very specific interest. These charlatans, these, you know, these that are making huge amounts of money off of these fake cures. But then at the same time it's feeding this libertarian agenda of, you know, that seeks to basically, you know, that seeks to eradicate trusted messengers, that seeks to eradicate trust in expertise because in that environment where misinformation and disinformation thrives, they win.

[Sam Seder]

Well, it's anything, it seems to me, that is even remotely communitarian, Right? Like there is science is not straightforwardly democratic, but there is like a peer review process and there is a sense of like the scientific community puts out, you know, information. And science, of course, is also necessarily going to be used by governments to do things. And none of those, almost none of those things they do is going to be favorable to incorporate, to, excuse me, to incumbent corporate powers. You may end up subsidizing, you know, solar or, you know, and eventually they'll become the incumbent. And maybe it's then, I don't know, water or whatever it's going to be 100, 200 years from now. But that is, that is why I think it has been just a long term Agenda item for conservatives, broadly speaking.

[Dr. Michael Mann]

Right.

[Sam Seder]

To undermine science because that type of objective reality ends up taking things out of the realm of a supposed religious informed morality. And that's basically the whole recipe.

[Dr. Michael Mann]

Exactly. You know, in the absence of fact based discourse again their alternative facts and conspiracy theories get purchased. And that's what we're seeing today. I don't know Emma and Sam, if either of you, I suspect neither of you are old enough. I grew up watching Carl Sagan watching the Cosmos series and you can still view it. And Sagan was sort of this great science philosopher and public figure of my generation when I was growing up, you know, that my generation grew up with. And he would talk about sort of the self correcting machinery of science and how important it is to our way of life. And there's a very haunting passage in his, his last book, it was published in 1997, the year he passed away. The demon haunted world Science as a candle in the dark. There's this passage and you can go online and find it where he has this premonition of a future at the time of his grandchildren. Basically right now, if you extrapolate, he's talking about now where people become so unable to understand the science and technology that rules their lives that they become hostage to. He really emphasized pseudoscience and misinformation of that sort. He was very worried about horoscopes and crystal healing and that sort of pseudoscience. I don't think he quite envisioned how anti science would be weaponized, that corporate actors would actually weaponize that to advance their agenda. And so it's even worse than what's in some respects than what Sagan presaged.

[Sam Seder]

I, I am of say a similar age to you and I, you can find I think Sagan was on with Charlie Rose when he really articulated that fear. It is eerie and, but I also have to say, I mean and this is sort of my little bailiwick is the, the, the, the blind spot to the corporate interests that were then championed by conservatives was there then. And it was a blind spot because there was this sense that like well, we all go to the same country.

[Dr. Michael Mann]

Club, care about democracy, we care about. Right.

[Sam Seder]

And like the idea of like well, you know, the theory, well, they have to live on this planet too. But the attitude I think that they have is like, well that's why I have all the money to insulate me.

[Dr. Michael Mann]

From the implications and naive assumption of good faith.

[Sam Seder]

Yeah.

[Dr. Michael Mann]

And that really was our, that that was the weakness as you say, let's.

[Sam Seder]

Talk about Strategy and like, what the response is. I mean, one of the conversations I am quite sure that we've had in the past was the disadvantage science. And I think it's the same thing with education. I came across the same sort of dynamic when people want to attack education, when people want to attack science, it is people who are specifically propagandists, communicators, who are coming into this space and going up against, let's say in the context of educators, like, education is very sort of student oriented. It's very hard to have a broad ideology about education because it is so specific to who you're teaching at any given point. And in the battle of ideas, that's a disadvantage. And science is the same way. You rely on nuance. You rely on the idea of like, what is true is what is most provable at this time, that evolves over time. And what in science is a process and it is not a sort of like a. A static thing.

[Dr. Michael Mann]

That's right.

[Sam Seder]

That's a really hard argument to make. If the guy you're arguing against is just saying, like, I don't think so. You guys don't agree with what you did five years ago.

[Dr. Michael Mann]

Yeah, we're trying to build something, they're trying to tear it down. And there's a fundamental asymmetry there. That is the asymmetry that we're seeing writ large in our politics today. And they just have to confuse. We need to educate. And science is tough to start with. Right. I mean, and it's often laden in jargon and scientists have to work very hard to be able to explain things in terms that are accessible to non experts. It doesn't come naturally. And it's hard, but it's a whole lot harder if you're communicating against this massive headwind of a disinformation machine that is trying to confuse the public. That is trying. And they win. Right. If they can confuse the public. And so their strategy is to throw so much mud on the wall that there's just no way that you, as the person is trying to clarify these things, can scrape it all off. And so there's an asymmetry in this battle to begin with. Now you add the fact that they have the leading plutocrats of the world, the world's wealthiest people, funding their disinformation effort. And we've got a sort of a ragtag team of communicators and scientists who are in it because they're trying to do the right thing, not making a whole lot of money doing so. There are so Many layers of asymmetry here that's in the book, in the closing message is sort of, I borrow, sort of, you know, I wax Tolkien esque. We wax Tolkien esque because this is an epic battle for the future of humanity. And there's no guarantee that we win this battle. Right. And as I say, no white wizard will come to our defense here to save the day. But we do have truth on our side and the stakes couldn't be greater. So we have to fight the, this battle.

[Sam Seder]

What are some of the, you know, as, what is your message to scientists? And then let's talk about laypeople in terms of dealing with this.

[Dr. Michael Mann]

Yeah, I mean, my message, our message to scientists is that we have to be out there being willing to speak truth to power, to speak up. The, the other side is doing everything they can to silence us, to intimidate us. That's why they come after Peter, that's why they come after me. And we detail some of our numerous adventures in the crosshairs of the disinformation machine in the book. But that hasn't deterred us because we know that the stakes are so great. They're literally the future of human civilization as we know it. And so we ask scientists to be brave, to be willing to speak truth to power, to be willing to work together with organizations, because alone, we're very vulnerable. As individuals, we're vulnerable, but there's strength in numbers. And as we work together, as we team together and we work with, you know, scientific organizations and the scientific societies to try to push back against the misinformation, to push back against the disinformation, we can make some progress there. But here's the thing, and this is the larger message. You know, there are lots of specific things we can do. We can try to create more opportunities for young scientists who have a proclivity and interest in science communication to get engaged in that. We can try to work closely with opinion leaders, journalists and others to form sort of an ecosystem for getting actual scientific information out to the public and policymakers. But again, this is an asymmetric battle. There are overwhelming for forces mounted against us. And in the end, if we don't change our politics, there isn't any obvious way forward. The most important thing that we can do is to participate in the political process. Because if we don't win back, you know, our federal government for the side of science and fact based discourse, our democracy is, is so fragile at this point. We are at such a vulnerable point right now that I fear that if we don't see people rise up, turn out in massive numbers in the midterm elections where there's still maybe some time to steer this ship. If that doesn't happen, it's hard to see a way forward for the United States. And we see other Western nations also becoming vulnerable to some of these same sort of authoritarian headwinds, tailwinds, rather. We're seeing a movement towards authoritarianism in many other Western nations. And so we are at a juncture at a crossroads right now. And it's important that we recognize that. We recognize that we are in the midst of a, what is truly a battle, an existential battle for the future of humanity as we know it. And it's happening right now, as Sagan and others predicted.

[Emma Vigeland]

Well, there's also the fact that this. We were talking, I think, about our democracy, and you are correctly talking about these threats to the United States. But we don't exist in the vacuum, obviously. I mean, we started the conversation with you speaking about some of these other incentives of who, you know, invested in Twitter and that kind of thing. I mean, where does China play into all of this? Because China seems to be outpacing the United States technologically quite rapidly. And it is both. It's just maddening to see because you have disinformation, like, weighing down progress in this country, like ankle weights. And it's just talk a little bit about China and that competition and the role that that plays.

[Dr. Michael Mann]

Yeah, thanks so much for that question, Emma. You know, there's a line that, again, that I borrow. We borrow from Lord of the Rings. You know, our list of allies grows thin. Those of us fighting back against these forces. Our list of allies grows thin. And so we look for who are the allies here? And sometimes they may come from sort of unexpected places. Right. China is an ally when it comes to the battle for a livable planet. They are now leading the world in the absence, with the United States now having become a petro state itself. Our policies right now are dictated by the fossil fuel industry. That really leaves only China, China, as sort of a superpower that is actually prioritizing environmental health and the climate crisis. And they're doing that in a number of ways. They're actually taking actions. President Xi actually, in his. Essentially his response to Trump's climate denial speech at the UN General Assembly, Xi responded to that, not by name, but basically saying, you know, we don't care if the United States is falling into sort of denial and opposition to, you know, to action, you know, adopting an agenda of inaction we will still lead, and we will lead by reducing our own emissions. And keep in mind, China doesn't have a legacy of two centuries of fossil fuel burning. And so arguably they can rightly say we should get our turn too. So for them to reduce their carbon emissions is far more aggressive an action on their part than for the United States, which has two centuries of doing this. And they are reducing their carbon emissions, they're taking leadership there and they're providing clean energy infrastructure, renewable energy, solar panels, sort of electric vehicles to the rest of the world. They're reducing global carbon emissions by giving.

[Sam Seder]

I mean, they have the capacity to have a 10, 20, 30 year vision. And in 30 years, I mean 30, 40 years, regardless of what scenarios play out, the world is going to be significantly more solar powered and significantly more electric vehicle powered than it is today. And the question is, who's going to capture all of that manufacturing behind that and that technology? And China is like somehow has leapt ahead of us. They seem like they're now like 10 years, 15 years ahead of us on that. Yeah, there are, they have EVs that, that go 400 miles and cost 20 grand. It is, yeah, it's, it's, I mean, and I only bring that up in the sense that like one, it almost like speaks to the lie of even the nationalism that they, that that is being promoted by the same science desire, the deniers. Because if you were genuinely interested in the American project, you would look to what China is doing in terms of, instead of cutting subsidies 100% to this in three months.

[Dr. Michael Mann]

Yeah, but absolutely. Yeah. Well, you know, I'll just say, I.

[Sam Seder]

Want to ask you though, is there a move in academics like, like, obviously, like I couldn't agree more in terms of the political situation and the urgency and immediacy of that.

[Dr. Michael Mann]

Yeah.

[Sam Seder]

I wonder if in the context of the scientific community, particularly on the university level, is there an awareness that like, you know, this happened in the 80s, I guess in the 80s, in the 90s, like business school said, like we're going to have an ethics class. And because they were realizing what was going on, it didn't seem to work that well. But, but is there a move within the context of the scientific community to say part of our job now, to the extent, because I, maybe this is my own sort of like bias, but scientists aren't necessarily, you know, the most sort of like necessarily the most communicative and you know, that's not where their.

[Dr. Michael Mann]

Skills are not being salted. Sam But I agree with you, present.

[Sam Seder]

Company accepted Right, right.

[Dr. Michael Mann]

Trained to do that.

[Sam Seder]

And you're not, you're not self selecting for those attributes. I mean, if I actually had to work, you know, as opposed to just talk for a job, then I would be, you know, I would have gone and done it. But. Absolutely. But is there any effort to, I don't know, either create a new discipline within the context of like science departments or, you know, you're on the science communication tract, or just broadly speaking, some, you know, training for how you, I don't know, apply for grants, you know, in, in the face of a system that is stacked against, I mean, like there's capitalism in, in scientific grants as well. I mean. And so, I mean, what's the answer on that?

[Dr. Michael Mann]

Yeah, thanks for asking. And I'll say I was. For nine months, I'd taken up a new position at Penn. I was a university administrator. I was the vice provost for climate science Policy and Action. And I stepped down a few weeks ago, a couple weeks ago, because I felt in this moment I couldn't be a university administrator. We have a policy, the university has a policy of neutrality on controversial topics. I had to be out there speaking truth to power at this moment. And so I stepped down from that position, from that administrative position. I still direct a center here at Penn, I'm still a professor here at Penn, but I'm not a university administrator. And I feel it frees me up to talk about these things because we have to be able to be out there talking about this. And as you say, you know, do we need a new sort of area of sort of academic inquiry, science communication? I think so. I think communication is a field, think increasingly there's a lot of support and interest in sort of science communication as an academic discipline. And our center here at Penn, which is partly in the School of Arts and Sciences and it's also partly in the Annenberg School for Communication, and our center actually works towards the science of science communication. How can we be more effective? How can we provide more opportunities? And again, we need to provide, not tell every scientist that they should be out there, you know, speaking to the public, because you put your finger on it, a lot of them shouldn't be out there speaking to the public. Their talents lie best in them being in the laboratory doing the science that they do. But for those scientists, and there are who have a proclivity for communicating, who have an interest and a passion for doing so, we've got to provide the opportunities, we've got to provide the training. And that's what our center does here at Penn that there are a lot of other sort of similar centers and institutes around the country that recognize that we need at least some set of the scientific community to be properly trained and equipped to be out there speaking to the public and policymakers. Because as I've often said, if we're not out there, we leave a vacuum. And we know whom that vacuum is going to be filled with. It's going to be filled with the disinformation specialists, the bad actors. And that's where we are right now. We're late in the game, right. So we can't wait to train a whole new generation of scientists to do battle against disinformation, misinformation. It'll be too late. So we got to go to battle with, if you will, to quote a public figure from some decades ago that we have. That's where we are right now.

[Sam Seder]

Yeah, and I wonder too if ultimately, as this, you know, hopefully we have the opportunity for this type of movement to mature. You know, which I do think it's like, you know, we're in a very, very tentative period of time. But ultimately, I mean, if we look at who the, for lack of a better term, enemies of science are, they have been the huge money interests who are making money off of stuff that is harming the planet. It is, you know, who's, whose interests are against the idea of government regulation, broadly speaking. Right. Broadly speaking. Because government regulation, broadly speaking, inhibits corporate power. That's largely what it does. And also the, this, you know, the idea that like sort of the wellness industry is so huge right now and it is driven by a series of like many, many, many hundreds, if not thousands, maybe millions of sort of wellness entrepreneurs who all sort of plug into this. It's also a function, it seems to me, of both a lack of regulation and a sort of a level of desperation that comes with a government that has not addressed sort of the economic well being of people. Like, if you, you know, if your choice out there is to believe that like this substance is going to, you know, cure people's cancer and you could stop your medications and it's, it's a combination of salt water and also just the commodity that I sell, then you're going to do it.

[Dr. Michael Mann]

They're very cheap and so they can make a lot of money and it goes along with consultations which they charge huge amounts for. And so you're right, there's an immense amount of money that's being made here and it is a product of the deregulatory sort of environment that was created by conservatives and libertarian activists decades ago. They were working. This health freedom movement was spurred onward by libertarian activists because they want to get rid of regulation, whether it's for public health, whether it's for fossil fuels or anything else. And that's why we're in the tight spot that we're in right now. So in the book we talk about, it's obviously important to restore common sense regulations. We need to be regulating social media companies that have allowed misinformation and disinformation.

[Sam Seder]

How would you do that?

[Dr. Michael Mann]

So there are models for that. Other countries, like Australia, for example, are doing that. They do have. Like Canada, they do actually have laws that sort of rein in. We used to have the Fairness Doctrine, right, which mandated that media outlets present information in a balanced and accurate way. One of the first things that Ronald Reagan did was to get rid of his fcc, got rid of that. And so there was once an infrastructure for doing that. It's been dismantled. We have to rebuild it. And again, it comes down to, how do we do any of that? We, you know, we can't do any of that if we don't restore some semblance of sanity to our federal government, if we don't elect representatives at all levels, all the way up to president, that will represent our interests rather than be rubber stamps for the bad actors that currently run the show. And that's where we are right now. In a year, we're going to have a midterm election which will determine whether we are able to right this ship. And people should be doing everything they possibly can to motivate everybody they know to participate in that election, because it really is an election that will determine the future of our democracy and possibly the future of human civilization.

[Sam Seder]

I couldn't agree more. And one final question. Are there social movements out there, like, electoral politics? Obviously, like, it's an urgent period of time. There's no guarantee there's going to be an election in 2026. It is not something I would have said maybe four months ago, but the pace in which these things are going, it almost seems harder to imagine that Trump won't say, like, well, we need to. We need 30 days before we have this, whatever it is.

[Dr. Michael Mann]

I have that same fear.

[Sam Seder]

Redistricting, whatnot. The only other backstop we have, and these are not the mutually exclusive things, in fact, I would argue that they are absolutely necessary for each other, are social movements and structures that are exist where people organize around at the moment.

[Dr. Michael Mann]

Like, and they're trying to push back against that as well as you know, that's all of this anti, antifa. They want to intimidate anybody who would think to speak out, anybody who would organize and protest. That's what they're doing right now.

[Sam Seder]

Yep. Are there, are there, are there. Do you see unions as do you see like other organizations that are structured around fighting corporate power, which is largely, you know, what we're talking about here as being important to this fight?

[Dr. Michael Mann]

Yeah, I mean there's civic, there's civic infrastructure in this country. You can be involved various groups, non governmental organizations that are working towards change and recognizing and this is an important, it's easy to become very depressed here given what's happening in the United States. But as I remind people, all the United States gets to determine here is what it is going to do moving forward. China, the European countries, Australia, the rest of the world is moving forward, moving forward with science based policies. And they're the ones who are going to prosper. China, Europe, they are going to prosper as they pursue sort of science and technology and where it's leading us. If we turn our back on science and technology, which was ultimately this country was built on it and if we turn our back on that, as you alluded to earlier in the conversation, we're going to fall behind the rest of the world. And so I'm pretty confident that the world will move forward, that we will get off fossil fuels, will move towards renewable energy. We're already doing that. We're already seeing that happen. All the United States gets to determine at this point is will it be part of the solution or will it be part of the problem. And if it's the latter, then the other countries of the world are going to have to have a really tough conversation about what to be done about the bad actor, the bad state actors, Russia, Saudi Arabia and do we want to be in that group?

[Sam Seder]

Dr. Michael Mann, climatologist, geophysicist, director of the center for Science Sustainability in the Media at the University of Pennsylvania. The book is Science under Siege, how to fight the five most powerful forces that threaten our world, written with Dr. Peter Hotez. Please give him our thanks for the work that he's been doing as well. Really appreciate you coming on today. We'll put a link to that book at Majority FM and the podcast and YouTube description.

[Dr. Michael Mann]

Thank you. It was, it was a pleasure talking with both of you. Hope to come back again soon. So thanks so much.

[Sam Seder]

Thanks.

[Emma Vigeland]

Likewise.

[Sam Seder]

All right, folks, we're going to take a quick break. We're going to head into the fun half, or as we call it around here, the done half. No, I don't think so. Just trying to keep people's spirits up. It's Monday. Got a full week of this ahead, and then we'll just start all over again.

[Dr. Michael Mann]

The heat is on them when they do this.

[Sam Seder]

Yes, yes, we'll have a fun clip. You know, that's the thing about Chuck Schumer. Always trying to keep things like, fun up there. Levity, ladies. See the jokes? Oh, man, it is so funny. It is. All right, folks, just a reminder to your support that makes this show possible. You can become a [e-mail] when you do, you not only get the free show free of commercials, but you get the fun half. And perhaps most importantly, you help this show survive and thrive in an era which is, you know, not so great. It's not the best era of a little bit of disturbance. May you live in interesting times. Yeah, I'll pass. I will pass on that. But what are you gonna do? Also, just coffee.co op, fair trade coffee. Use the coupon code. Majority get 10 off. Matt, what's happening on Left Reckoning? Yeah, Devin Thomas O' Shea came back on for our Sunday show. Patrons patreon.com left reckoning. We talked about one battle after another, which I saw and thought was awesome and probably going to see again. Paul Thomas Anderson. I was. I was front row, center seat, and it was glorious. It was great.

[Emma Vigeland]

You gotta go see it in 70 millimeter.

[Sam Seder]

That's what I thought you saw.

[Emma Vigeland]

I won't say it with theater. Okay, yeah. Yes. I'm gonna go see it again.

[Sam Seder]

Stephen Miller might burn the theater down. Like, all of a sudden, it's like a bunch of cinephiles around. Oh, come on. You gotta get Matthew film guy on. He will all over that movie. I am sure of it. Yeah, I don't know. You know, Paul Thomas Anderson always, like, has a little bit more artifice than I think. Phil. Some guy Matthew likes. What kind of bullet is this, huh?

[Emma Vigeland]

All right, I don't want to get into it. I don't even know if that's Matthew film guy's opinion, so I'm not gonna.

[Sam Seder]

Go out with him. First of all, once you get to an argument with him about Superman too. All right, folks.

[Emma Vigeland]

Superman. Who gives a about Superman?

[Sam Seder]

Well, you talked about it for. For quite a long time.

[Emma Vigeland]

Well, this is.

[Sam Seder]

We gotta take a quick break. We'll head into the fun half. First left is best. Jamie and I may have a Disagreement?

[Dr. Michael Mann]

Yeah.

[Emma Vigeland]

You can't just say whatever you want about people just cuz you're rich.

[Sam Seder]

I have an absolute right to mock them on YouTube. He's up there buggy whipping like he's the boss. I am not your employer.

[Dr. Michael Mann]

You know, I'm tired of the negativity.

[Sam Seder]

I'm sorry, I didn't mean to upset you. You're nervous. You're a little bit upset. You're riled up. Yeah, maybe you should rethink your defense of that.

[Dr. Michael Mann]

You idiots.

[Sam Seder]

We're just going to get rid of you. All right, but dude, dude, dude, dude, dude, dude. You want to smoke this joint? Yes. Do you feel like you are a dinosaur?

[Emma Vigeland]

That's a good shit.

[Sam Seder]

Exactly. I'm happy now. It's a win, win. It's a win, win, win.

[Emma Vigeland]

Uh, hell yeah.

[Sam Seder]

Now listen to me. 2, 3, 4, 5 times 8479-065014-57238, 56, 27, 1/2 5, 8. 3.9 billion.

[Dr. Michael Mann]

Wow. He's the ultimate math nerd.

[Sam Seder]

Don't you see? Why don't you get a real job instead of stealing vitriol and hatred?

[Dr. Michael Mann]

You left wing Limbaugh.

[Sam Seder]

Everybody's taking their dumb juice today.

[Dr. Michael Mann]

Come on, Sammy.

[Sam Seder]

Dance, dance, dance. Ooh, Grandpa. I had my first post coital scene with a woman. I'm hoping to add more moves to my repertoire. All I have is the dip and the swirl.

[Dr. Michael Mann]

Fine, we can double dip.

[Sam Seder]

Yes. This is a perfect moment. No, wait. What? You make under a million dollars a year. You're scum. You're nothing. Excuse me? Fuck you, you fucking liberal elite. I think you belong in jail. Thank you for saying that, Sam.

[Dr. Michael Mann]

You're a horrible, despicable person.

[Sam Seder]

All right, gonna take a quick break. I want to take a moment to talk to some of the libertarians out there. Take whatever vehicle you want to drive to the library. What you're talking about is gibberish. Jab.

[Dr. Michael Mann]

Classic.

[Emma Vigeland]

I'm feeling more chill already. Good.

[Sam Seder]

Donald Trump can kiss all of our asses. Hey, Sam.

[Dr. Michael Mann]

Hey, Andy.

[Sam Seder]

You guys ready to do some evil?

[Dr. Michael Mann]

Hitler was such an idiot.

[Sam Seder]

That guy might be a Nazi.

[Emma Vigeland]

Agree.

[Sam Seder]

No. Death to America.

[Dr. Michael Mann]

You.

[Sam Seder]

Yes.

[Dr. Michael Mann]

Wow.

[Sam Seder]

Wow. That's weird. No way. Unbelievable. This guy's got a really good hook. Wow. But Sam, I gotta get off. No worries. I wanna just flesh this out a little bit. I mean, look, it's a free speech issue. If you don't like me. Hey, hey, hey, hey. Shut up.

[Dr. Michael Mann]

Thank you for calling into the majority report. Sam will be with you shortly.