Podcast Summary: The Majority Report with Sam Seder

Episode 3597 – The Victims of Zionism w/ Avi Shlaim
Date: October 7, 2025
Guests: Avi Shlaim (Emeritus Professor, University of Oxford, author of "Genocide in Gaza: Israel's Long War on Palestine")
Hosts: Sam Seder, Emma Vigeland

Main Theme and Purpose

This episode centers on a deep, historically driven discussion with Avi Shlaim— one of Israel's foremost “new historians”— examining the history of Zionism, the transformation of Israeli historical narrative, and the long-term consequences for both Palestinians and Jews of Arab lands. The conversation explores the foundations of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, the origins and aims of Zionism, Britain's colonial role, the realities and myths of Israel’s creation, and the ongoing humanitarian crisis in Gaza. The episode marks the two-year anniversary of the October 7 Hamas attack and the subsequent intensified war in Gaza.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The New Israeli Historians and Challenging Myths

[28:55]

• Avi Shlaim introduces the concept of Israel's “new historians,” who began publishing revisionist works in 1988, challenging the established Zionist narrative around Israel's creation and the 1948 war.
• Key figures include Benny Morris (now right-leaning), Ilan Pappé, and Shlaim himself—all of whom used Israeli archives to upend myths about voluntary Palestinian flight and unified Arab aggression.
• Notable myths overturned:
  • That Arab countries were uniformly committed to “throwing Jews into the sea.”
  • That Palestinian refugees left voluntarily; new research shows deliberate Israeli policies were critical.
  • That Israel relentlessly sought peace; documents reveal Arab leaders attempted negotiation and Israel was frequently intransigent.

"Between us, we mounted a frontal assault on all the myths that have come to surround the birth of Israel and the first Arab Israeli war."
— Avi Shlaim [30:18]

2. Personal Experience: The Uprooting of Iraqi Jews

[35:51]

• Shlaim discusses his own upbringing as a Jew in Baghdad until age five, his family’s relocation to Israel, and elaborates on the broader exodus of Jews from Arab countries.
• Contradicts the Israeli state narrative that widespread Arab antisemitism forced Jews to leave; instead, shows evidence—specifically in Iraq—of Mossad involvement in false-flag bombings to frighten Jews into emigrating.
• Coins the term "cruel Zionism" for such operations, which rendered ancient communities rootless.

“Most of the Jews of Iraq...wanted to stay. But the establishment of the state of Israel made it very difficult because it generated a wave of hostility...So it’s the Zionist movement which was responsible for driving the Jews from the Arab lands.”
— Avi Shlaim [36:56]

3. Zionism as Colonialism—Britain’s Role

[41:14]

• Analysis of the Balfour Declaration (1917) as the “original sin” that ignored the Palestinian majority, granting national rights to the Jewish minority.
• Britain’s mandate enforced policies preventing democracy ("no elections until Jews are a majority"), directly enabling Zionist land acquisition.
• Ongoing imperial support from Britain and, post-1948, America, has been crucial to Israeli expansion and impunity.

"The Israeli-Palestinian conflict was made in Britain. And the Balfour Declaration of 1917 was the original sin..."
— Avi Shlaim [41:20]

“Noam Chomsky wrote that settler colonialism is the most extreme and vicious form of imperialism. And for the last century, the Palestinians have been at the receiving end...”
— Avi Shlaim [43:33]

4. The Linear Agenda of Zionism and Expansion

[46:03]

• Shlaim asserts there has always been a consistent Zionist ambition: creating a Jewish state on as much land as possible, with as few Arabs as possible.
• The aftermath of 1967 further entrenched territorial ambitions; no government has seriously accepted an independent Palestinian state.
• The current government is explicit about aiming for “Greater Israel,” the ethnic cleansing of the West Bank, and renouncing a two-state solution.

“The trajectory has been linear not just since Israel was created, but before...From the beginning, Israel has been an expansionist country.”
— Avi Shlaim [46:06]

5. Democracy for Palestinians?

[50:53]

• While Israeli Palestinians were nominally granted the vote, effective military rule and systemic discrimination persisted until 1966.
• Post-1967, with occupation of Palestinian territories, Israel cannot be considered a democracy by standard definitions.
• The Palestinian Authority today is described as lacking legitimacy, corrupt, and serving primarily Israeli security interests instead of genuine Palestinian representation.

"...Israel had a procedural democracy. But since 1967, with Israeli control of the occupied territories, Israel in no sense can be described as a democracy."
— Avi Shlaim [51:32]

“The Palestinian Authority...does nothing to protect the people. Under its rule, 40% of its budget goes toward security. But that’s not Palestinian security, it’s Israeli security.”
— Avi Shlaim [53:54]

6. Genocide in Gaza—When Did the Threshold Cross?

[55:08]

• Shlaim explains his initial reluctance to use the term “genocide,” given its weight and the historical crimes against Jews, but argues that Israel’s actions now clearly meet both the rhetorical and practical thresholds of the Genocide Convention.
• “Clincher”: Israel’s deliberate starvation of the Gaza population and explicit genocidal language from Israeli leadership.
• The ongoing destruction, forced displacement, and bombing of supposed “safe zones” solidify his position that genocide is not just ongoing, but live-streamed and openly declared.

“It was a gradual process that led me to the conclusion that Israel is guilty of genocide. The clincher for me was the stopping of humanitarian aid...the use of starvation as a weapon of war.”
— Avi Shlaim [55:45]

“There are six pages of quotes from Israeli leaders… which are clearly genocidal statements. So there is no doubt about the rhetoric. But secondly, Israel’s actions on the ground also amount to genocide…”
— Avi Shlaim [56:24]

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On British culpability and Zionism:
  “It is the Balfour Declaration which enabled the tiny Zionist movement to embark on the systematic takeover of the whole of Palestine… This process continues to this day.”
  — Avi Shlaim [42:17]

• On historical memory and myth:
  "I literally just had this argument at Yom Kippur breakfast. I was told that Israel consisted in 1948 of Arab Jews who were kicked out of various Arab countries… The sequencing is wrong."
  — Sam Seder [34:43]

• On the reality of the peace process:
  “I demonstrate, using Israeli documents, that there were pragmatic Arab leaders ready to negotiate… it was Israel which was largely responsible for the perpetuation of the conflict until today.”
  — Avi Shlaim [33:38]

• On Gaza and genocide’s visibility:
  “This is genocide, which is live streamed on our screens every day. That’s what is unusual about the Israeli genocide in Gaza… it is live streamed.”
  — Avi Shlaim [58:31]

Important Timestamps & Segments

• [28:55] — Introduction to “New Historians” in Israel.
• [35:51] — Avi Shlaim’s personal story: Jewish exodus from Iraq and Mossad’s role.
• [41:14] — Britain’s colonial legacy and the roots of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.
• [46:03] — Consistency of Zionist expansionism and current government policy.
• [50:53] — Democracy, the Palestinian Authority, and apartheid.
• [55:08] — Defining genocide in Gaza and Israel’s actions.
• [59:41] — Interview conclusion and further recommended reading.

Recommendations and References

• Rashid Khalidi’s “100 Years War on Palestine” is praised and recommended for further reading. [60:12]
• Prior interviews with Khalidi are mentioned for context (March 24, 2024, et al.). [61:01]
• Discussion on the ongoing exodus of Jewish academics protesting crackdowns on speech around Palestine. [61:25]

Tone and Style

• Thoughtful, scholarly, and direct from Avi Shlaim—grounded in historical detail but deeply concerned with contemporary realities.
• Sam Seder and Emma Vigeland are engaged, probing, and often provide moments of wry self-awareness, but ultimately center Shlaim’s testimony.
• The conversation is unflinching and candid in its assessment of both historical responsibility and present moral crises.

This episode is essential listening for anyone seeking a rigorous, honest account of the Zionist project, its ongoing impact on both Palestinians and Jews of Arab lands, and the realities on the ground in Gaza today.