3597 - The Victims of Zionism w/ Avi Shlaim

Summary

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Podcast Summary: The Majority Report with Sam Seder

Episode 3597 – The Victims of Zionism w/ Avi Shlaim
Date: October 7, 2025
Guests: Avi Shlaim (Emeritus Professor, University of Oxford, author of "Genocide in Gaza: Israel's Long War on Palestine")
Hosts: Sam Seder, Emma Vigeland

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Main Theme and Purpose

This episode centers on a deep, historically driven discussion with Avi Shlaim— one of Israel's foremost “new historians”— examining the history of Zionism, the transformation of Israeli historical narrative, and the long-term consequences for both Palestinians and Jews of Arab lands. The conversation explores the foundations of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, the origins and aims of Zionism, Britain's colonial role, the realities and myths of Israel’s creation, and the ongoing humanitarian crisis in Gaza. The episode marks the two-year anniversary of the October 7 Hamas attack and the subsequent intensified war in Gaza.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The New Israeli Historians and Challenging Myths

[28:55]

• Avi Shlaim introduces the concept of Israel's “new historians,” who began publishing revisionist works in 1988, challenging the established Zionist narrative around Israel's creation and the 1948 war.
• Key figures include Benny Morris (now right-leaning), Ilan Pappé, and Shlaim himself—all of whom used Israeli archives to upend myths about voluntary Palestinian flight and unified Arab aggression.
• Notable myths overturned:
  • That Arab countries were uniformly committed to “throwing Jews into the sea.”
  • That Palestinian refugees left voluntarily; new research shows deliberate Israeli policies were critical.
  • That Israel relentlessly sought peace; documents reveal Arab leaders attempted negotiation and Israel was frequently intransigent.

"Between us, we mounted a frontal assault on all the myths that have come to surround the birth of Israel and the first Arab Israeli war."
— Avi Shlaim [30:18]

2. Personal Experience: The Uprooting of Iraqi Jews

[35:51]

• Shlaim discusses his own upbringing as a Jew in Baghdad until age five, his family’s relocation to Israel, and elaborates on the broader exodus of Jews from Arab countries.
• Contradicts the Israeli state narrative that widespread Arab antisemitism forced Jews to leave; instead, shows evidence—specifically in Iraq—of Mossad involvement in false-flag bombings to frighten Jews into emigrating.
• Coins the term "cruel Zionism" for such operations, which rendered ancient communities rootless.

“Most of the Jews of Iraq...wanted to stay. But the establishment of the state of Israel made it very difficult because it generated a wave of hostility...So it’s the Zionist movement which was responsible for driving the Jews from the Arab lands.”
— Avi Shlaim [36:56]

3. Zionism as Colonialism—Britain’s Role

[41:14]

• Analysis of the Balfour Declaration (1917) as the “original sin” that ignored the Palestinian majority, granting national rights to the Jewish minority.
• Britain’s mandate enforced policies preventing democracy ("no elections until Jews are a majority"), directly enabling Zionist land acquisition.
• Ongoing imperial support from Britain and, post-1948, America, has been crucial to Israeli expansion and impunity.

"The Israeli-Palestinian conflict was made in Britain. And the Balfour Declaration of 1917 was the original sin..."
— Avi Shlaim [41:20]

“Noam Chomsky wrote that settler colonialism is the most extreme and vicious form of imperialism. And for the last century, the Palestinians have been at the receiving end...”
— Avi Shlaim [43:33]

4. The Linear Agenda of Zionism and Expansion

[46:03]

• Shlaim asserts there has always been a consistent Zionist ambition: creating a Jewish state on as much land as possible, with as few Arabs as possible.
• The aftermath of 1967 further entrenched territorial ambitions; no government has seriously accepted an independent Palestinian state.
• The current government is explicit about aiming for “Greater Israel,” the ethnic cleansing of the West Bank, and renouncing a two-state solution.

“The trajectory has been linear not just since Israel was created, but before...From the beginning, Israel has been an expansionist country.”
— Avi Shlaim [46:06]

5. Democracy for Palestinians?

[50:53]

• While Israeli Palestinians were nominally granted the vote, effective military rule and systemic discrimination persisted until 1966.
• Post-1967, with occupation of Palestinian territories, Israel cannot be considered a democracy by standard definitions.
• The Palestinian Authority today is described as lacking legitimacy, corrupt, and serving primarily Israeli security interests instead of genuine Palestinian representation.

"...Israel had a procedural democracy. But since 1967, with Israeli control of the occupied territories, Israel in no sense can be described as a democracy."
— Avi Shlaim [51:32]

“The Palestinian Authority...does nothing to protect the people. Under its rule, 40% of its budget goes toward security. But that’s not Palestinian security, it’s Israeli security.”
— Avi Shlaim [53:54]

6. Genocide in Gaza—When Did the Threshold Cross?

[55:08]

• Shlaim explains his initial reluctance to use the term “genocide,” given its weight and the historical crimes against Jews, but argues that Israel’s actions now clearly meet both the rhetorical and practical thresholds of the Genocide Convention.
• “Clincher”: Israel’s deliberate starvation of the Gaza population and explicit genocidal language from Israeli leadership.
• The ongoing destruction, forced displacement, and bombing of supposed “safe zones” solidify his position that genocide is not just ongoing, but live-streamed and openly declared.

“It was a gradual process that led me to the conclusion that Israel is guilty of genocide. The clincher for me was the stopping of humanitarian aid...the use of starvation as a weapon of war.”
— Avi Shlaim [55:45]

“There are six pages of quotes from Israeli leaders… which are clearly genocidal statements. So there is no doubt about the rhetoric. But secondly, Israel’s actions on the ground also amount to genocide…”
— Avi Shlaim [56:24]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On British culpability and Zionism:
  “It is the Balfour Declaration which enabled the tiny Zionist movement to embark on the systematic takeover of the whole of Palestine… This process continues to this day.”
  — Avi Shlaim [42:17]

• On historical memory and myth:
  "I literally just had this argument at Yom Kippur breakfast. I was told that Israel consisted in 1948 of Arab Jews who were kicked out of various Arab countries… The sequencing is wrong."
  — Sam Seder [34:43]

• On the reality of the peace process:
  “I demonstrate, using Israeli documents, that there were pragmatic Arab leaders ready to negotiate… it was Israel which was largely responsible for the perpetuation of the conflict until today.”
  — Avi Shlaim [33:38]

• On Gaza and genocide’s visibility:
  “This is genocide, which is live streamed on our screens every day. That’s what is unusual about the Israeli genocide in Gaza… it is live streamed.”
  — Avi Shlaim [58:31]

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Important Timestamps & Segments

• [28:55] — Introduction to “New Historians” in Israel.
• [35:51] — Avi Shlaim’s personal story: Jewish exodus from Iraq and Mossad’s role.
• [41:14] — Britain’s colonial legacy and the roots of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.
• [46:03] — Consistency of Zionist expansionism and current government policy.
• [50:53] — Democracy, the Palestinian Authority, and apartheid.
• [55:08] — Defining genocide in Gaza and Israel’s actions.
• [59:41] — Interview conclusion and further recommended reading.

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Recommendations and References

• Rashid Khalidi’s “100 Years War on Palestine” is praised and recommended for further reading. [60:12]
• Prior interviews with Khalidi are mentioned for context (March 24, 2024, et al.). [61:01]
• Discussion on the ongoing exodus of Jewish academics protesting crackdowns on speech around Palestine. [61:25]

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Tone and Style

• Thoughtful, scholarly, and direct from Avi Shlaim—grounded in historical detail but deeply concerned with contemporary realities.
• Sam Seder and Emma Vigeland are engaged, probing, and often provide moments of wry self-awareness, but ultimately center Shlaim’s testimony.
• The conversation is unflinching and candid in its assessment of both historical responsibility and present moral crises.

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This episode is essential listening for anyone seeking a rigorous, honest account of the Zionist project, its ongoing impact on both Palestinians and Jews of Arab lands, and the realities on the ground in Gaza today.

Transcript

[A]

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[B]

Mom.

[A]

Mom, why did you do that to me? Trump calls off diplomatic outreach to Venezuela as the war drums start to beat from the White House. Bari Weiss and her conservative grievance takes over at CBS News. And Trump farmer bailout supposedly coming this week as bankruptcies amongst farmers is up 50% year over year. All this and more on today's Majority Report. Welcome, ladies and gentlemen.

[C]

It is News Day Tuesday.

[A]

News day Tuesday.

[C]

But of course, it's October 7th, so we had to have a special guest on and we had been wanting to have Avi Schlaim on the show for quite a while. So this is a really, really exciting interview. We just did it, actually recorded it about an hour and a half ago.

[A]

That's correct. We did, yes. It seemed like you were telling me that.

[C]

Well, I mean, I'm, you remember, part of what we do on the show.

[A]

Is we are 15 minutes away from me forgetting that any of this ever happened.

[C]

Well, we converse and we, we have conversation. I'm. That's the nature of our communication to the audience and that's how I was choosing to do that. But thanks for calling it out.

[A]

All right. There you go. Fair enough.

[C]

It's only Tuesday willing to accept that.

[A]

Yeah. Our format these days for Newsday Tuesday has been dubious at best. But we're still going to hang on to that idea that there's not a lot of news lately.

[C]

Yeah, I know.

[A]

Things are too slow on the news front. One of the things, speaking of which, one of the things that seemed to be in the news for, I don't know, about eight hours was the fact that the man in charge of the Gestapo in this country, the border czar, Tom Homan. Now, you haven't heard much of Tom Homan Remember how it used to be like Tom Homan was everywhere.

[C]

I mean, even when he's on tv, you don't really hear much of him anyway.

[D]

You do.

[A]

You're. But he was on every other day talking about how basically he had like creepy ass fantasies about AOC and other Democratic lawmakers. And, and he has not been out front for that lately. You know, to the extent that we've seen anybody from there, it's been Kristi Noem, dhs, going on her media with her sidekick Betty Johnson. And there's a reason why you haven't heard much about Tom Homan. He is laying a little bit low because it was reported about two weeks ago that in the run up to the 2024 election, Tom Homan, who we were covering at that time, because he was going around speaking as if he was in the shadow cabinet of Donald Trump, it's quite clear that he was going to be named head of ice. And he was going around making all sorts of proclamations about what they were going to do if they got elected, which, you know, some people should have probably listened to a little closer. And during that time, he got caught up in a sting operation. And by caught up, I mean he was not running the sting operation. Yeah, he was a, he was actually an ancillary subject. They were going after somebody else, we don't know who. And somebody said you should try Tom Holman because he's now collecting money to influence the Trump administration if he gets into office. Now, according to Tom Homan, that is not a criminal offense. And I'm not a judge, a jury. I can't make that, that assessment. But it's quite clear he did it. There's video of him taking $50,000 in cash in. Everybody seems to know this fast food place, like, you know, Kava.

[C]

Yes. That was the FBI's choice. I don't know why, but, but I.

[A]

Just want everybody to take a breath. Chicken or rice if you know. Well, there's two, there's, there's multiple questions about this. Maybe we should ask the questions after Whitehead White House asks his. But just let's just start with the premise of I'm doing something that's completely legal and above board, but I'd like it in cash and I'd like it in a fast food restaurant.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Which is the way that now I will be.

[C]

That's how you hand out our pay stub.

[A]

Listen, it's the way everybody, everybody gets paid here. You know, in between, like a hot dog roll, I put in there a cash you put on a Burger King crown and I put it, and you pay. In fact, the people who are members to this show all line up and slide the money underneath our door at the beginning of the month every week. Here is White House asking Pam Bondi a very, very relevant question that hadn't even occurred to me. Again, the FBI, posing as a contractor for that does business with ICE, gave Tom Homan $50,000 in cash. Senator Whitehouse has some questions about that money.

[E]

What became of the $50,000 in cash that the FBI paid to Mr. Homan? In a paper bag, evidently.

[A]

Oh, pause it. I should tell you that Pam Bondi has not passed out. She. She's still there. She just. It took her a while to sort of like. Because honestly, like, we talked about this story, and it never occurred to me to. Wait a second. Okay, maybe. Maybe no crime was committed. Where's our effing money? Good.

[C]

Oh, my God.

[B]

Senator, as Deputy Attorney General Todd Blanch recently stated, the investigation of Mr. Homan was subjected to a full review by the FBI agents and DOJ prosecutors. They found no credible evidence of any wrongdoing.

[A]

Pause it for one second. Pause it for one second. Todd Blanch. Why does that name sound familiar to me? Oh, I know why. Because he was Donald Trump's defense attorney. I'm sorry. Okay. Yeah, go back a little bit. I just wanted to place him.

[D]

Okay.

[B]

They found no credible evidence of any wrongdoing.

[E]

And that was not my question. My question was, what became of the $50,000 in cash that the FBI delivered, evidently in a paper bag to Mr. Homan?

[B]

Senator, I'd look at your facts.

[E]

Are you saying that they did not deliver $50,000 in cash to Mr. Homan?

[B]

Senator, as recently stated, the investigation of Mr. Homan was subjected to a full review.

[E]

A different question.

[B]

By the FBI agents. That's by Department of Justice prosecutors. They found no evidence of wrongdoing.

[E]

That's a different question. What became of the $50,000? Did the FBI get it back?

[B]

Mr. Whitehouse. Excuse me. Senator Whitehouse, you're welcome to talk to the FBI.

[E]

The report to you. Can't you answer this question?

[B]

Senator Whitehouse, you're welcome to discuss this with Director Patel.

[E]

Did homan keep the $50,000?

[B]

As Deputy Attorney General Todd Blanche recently stated, the investigation of. Mr. Never mind.

[E]

I can see I'm not going to get a straight answer from you to a very simple question.

[B]

FBI agents and the doj, they know no credible evidence of wrongdoing. You know, you're very concerned about money and people Taking money and you rail against.

[E]

Wait a second, Wait a second, wait a second.

[B]

You work with dark money groups all. Senator, wait a second.

[E]

Did you know whether or not in that investigation they looked at whether the 20, 24 $50,000 payment to Mr. Homan was declared by him on his tax returns?

[B]

Senator, I would be more concerned if I were you when you talk about corruption and money that you. That when you pushed for legislation that would subsidize your wife's company.

[E]

Questions here are actually pretty specific, so having you respond with completely irrelevant far right Internet talking points really is not very helpful here. I'd like. Mr. Chairman, you generally like to have us be able to get answers to no. And we'll follow up with a qfr. And to the extent Patel wants to answer, that would be great as well. What happened to the $50,000? Did Homan keep it? Did the FBI get it back if he kept it, did he put it on his tax returns? Pretty simple questions, you know.

[D]

Wow.

[A]

I'm gonna guess.

[C]

That he donated it to charity.

[A]

Well, he may have donated to charity.

[F]

What if it disappeared?

[D]

Just.

[A]

I'm gonna guess that on his tax returns. $50,000 consulting payment in the form of cash not listed as one of his income. Has anybody thought about checking his cheeks for the $50,000? I'm keeping an escrow in my mouth for. It's a chipmunk account.

[F]

How does the IRS want you to report money you got in a kava?

[A]

Yeah, I think he just put in 50 grand. And from a who?

[C]

It's from he should.

[A]

FBI.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

I received $50,000 for my efforts in playing a part in an investigation by the FBI. The FBI paid me $50,000.

[C]

His disclosure documents. ProPublica investigated this homan's private sector work when he, before he returned to government, transformed his finances. In 2017, he declared assets totaling a maximum of just $250,000 on his ethics disclosures, following a career in federal service, a figure that excludes certain government retirement accounts. By 2025, his net worth had grown to between $3 million to $9 million, the disclosure documents show.

[A]

It's interesting, but not on class.

[C]

I mean, but not on class. Was that a denial?

[A]

But not on class.

[C]

Oh, you're saying it's not on cash? Oh, I think I made out the.

[A]

Word cash, but not on.

[C]

I'm sure the podcast audience is loving this. So Holman also was a consultant for a division of Geo group called GeoCare, where he disclosed receiving more than $5,000 over two years before taking a government Role. I would imagine it's a lot more than $5,000 if your net worth is now in the millions. And he also was involved in hiring this guy, David Venturella, who had worked at GEO Group, to ice. And now Geo Group is getting a bunch of. I'm just trying to be substantive.

[D]

Okay.

[A]

I was getting a dollar from the campaign. Tom Holland's doing it because I think he's the greatest person in my lifetime. This is a perfect representation of the dichotomy of our government. Right now. You're throwing experiments around.

[F]

Meat wad.

[A]

Tom Holland's doing it because I think he's the greatest. Where is. Where is our money? Where's our $50,000?

[F]

I mean, you care a lot about 50, $50,000, Sam. What about all the stuff you did wrong?

[A]

As someone who recently started paying taxes, I want to know. Yeah. White House also could have said, whatever my wife got, it wasn't in a paper bag. And it wasn't U.S. tax dollars. I mean, this is like. It is the most obvious question in the world. Where is our US tax $50,000 that we paid to Tom Homan to pretend that he was a subject of an FBI investigation?

[C]

Do you think he got paid a lot more than just $5,000 over two years from GEO Group? I'm going to guess a lot more.

[A]

It would have to be per minute.

[C]

Yeah, it would have to be to get him to those millions and would not be. You will not be shocked to know that GEO Group is getting a ton of contracts to do, basically concentration camps, internment camps, abuse, torture camps for a bunch of immigrants in this alligator Alcatraz. Yeah.

[A]

When I was in high school, we had a police officer come into our class and tell us. One of the things he told us was that for every ticket they issue, they estimate like 25 traffic violations per ticket. How many other bags of cash do you think, Tom Homan.

[C]

Yep.

[A]

This is the first time I've ever taken a bag of cash in my entire life. It's just so coincident that it happened to be from the FBI.

[F]

I mean, the FBI is to salivate when they see guys connected to this incarceration complex because they're all gonna take this money.

[C]

Well, it's what we said about the Tim Pool thing and the Dave Rubin Russian money thing, where it's like. It's just. You must be used to taking these kinds of payments if you agree to it so quickly on, like, to basically to make millions and millions of dollars without really knowing who the backer is. Must be. Yeah.

[A]

In Holman's defense, I'm sure it is the first time he has received 50,000 in cash in a kava bag.

[D]

Yes, generally I'd like other type of.

[A]

Like a shopping bag or Wendy's. Folks, in a moment we'll be playing that interview with Avi Schlaim that we did just moments ago. First couple words from our sponsors. If you're noticing some hair thinning, don't panic plan. Now is the time to be proactive about your hair health. Neutral Men targets root causes of thinning hair from within so you can keep and maintain the hair you've got and only bring out the hat on game days as it were. Years ago we were approached by Neutral Fall to advertise them. Nobody in the office was a taker but we still had like a bottle or two around and a year or two later I was like, you know what, I'm starting to feel like I might be thinning a little bit on my in my hair, not anywhere else in my body. And I started taking it and it has been. I've had great results. The big issue for me was it is a supplement and there is no reported in my experience and apparently in others impact to sexual performance or other side effects. Neutrophil's number one dermatologist recommended hair growth supplement brand. It is trusted by over one and a half million people in just three to six months go from a hat guy to a hair guy with visibly thicker, fuller hair and improved scalp coverage. Nutrafol's hair growth supplements are physician formulated. They use 100% drug free ingredients. Their patented technology provides consistent, reliable results. Nutrafol is the first and only hair growth supplement to be NSF certified for sport testing against 290 plus athletic banned substances, toxicology reviews, ingredient testing, label verification and annual manufacturing facility audits to ensure FDA requirements are met. Neutral Men is clinically tested to improve hair growth and quality. Plus like I say, men reported no impact to sexual performance. They test the final formulations so it's not just ingredients. They literally test the final formulations. Building a hair growth routine is easy. You can order online. You don't need a prescription. Hats off to great hair. For a limited time, Neutral is offering our audience $10 off your first month subscription and free Shipp. When you go to nutrafol.com men enter the promo code TMR10. That's TMR10. Find out why Neutrophil is the leading hair growth supplement brand on the market. Nutrafol.com men spelled n u t r a f o l.com men promo code TMR10. That's neutrophil.com men promo code TMR 10. More information in the podcast and YouTube links or descriptions I should say. Also sponsoring the program today, the turnkey mechanism that allows us to sell our [e-mail] reportradio.com we started the podcast basically everything I had to do on my own. Well, Dorsey also actually helped quite a bit. But pasting together the equipment that I had stolen from Air America and soldering wires and whatnot, it was super overwhelming. I was always afraid to start a merch store for years. People were like, sell merch. I'm like, no, it's going to be too much of a pain. I don't want to have to deal with any of this accounting for it lists and upkeep and whatnot. Shopify was the answer. Shopify is the commerce platform behind millions of businesses around the world. Households names like Magic spoon to brands that are just getting started. Shopify has hundreds of ready to use templates to help you build an online store that matches your brand. So if you want something that's beautiful, edgy, minimalist or like what we do, seemingly done in like, you know, I don't know, your, your garage, Shopify is there for you. Shopify. It's packed with AI tools to help you put together product descriptions, page headlines, even enhance your product photography. Best yet, Shopify helps you manage inventory both in real life sales and online. You can sell on social media sites all across the board. If you're ready to sell, you're ready for Shopify. Turn your big business idea into a cha ching with Shopify on your side. Sign up for your $1 per month trial. Start selling today at shopify.com/mainior. Go to shopify.com majority shopify.com majority for a little bit of this. All of that info will be in the podcast and YouTube description. Quick Break and when we come back, Avi Schlaim, emeritus Professor of International Relations at the University of Oxford. His most recent book, Genocide in Gaza, Israel's Long War on Palestine. It Sam, we are back. Sam Seder, Emma Vigland on the Majority Report. It is a pleasure to welcome to the program Avi Schlaim. He is the Emeritus professor of International Relations at the University of Oxford. His most recent book of nine, if I'm counting correctly, is Genocide in Israel's Long War on Palestine. Professor, thank you so much for joining us.

[D]

It's a pleasure to be here with you.

[C]

Thank you.

[A]

Before we get to your most recent work, broadly speaking. Can you give us a sense of the. What we mean when we say Israel's new historical historians and all that's involved with those? I guess the revision of Israeli history that I know for myself when I was raised, the history I was taught was different than, I think, what we've come to understand.

[D]

So the new history is a very small group of Israeli historians who published books in 1988, on the fourth anniversary of the birth of the State of Israel, and the original group included Benny Morris and Ilan Pape and myself. During the second intifada, which started in 2000. Benny Morris has veered from the extreme left to the extreme right and he's changed his views. Ilan Tappe and I remain on the left, and we remain critical of Israel's policy towards the Arabs. The debate between we were collectively we were called the new historians or the revisionist Israeli historians because we challenged many of the assumptions and premises of the old history of Israel. We challenged the Zionist narrative of the 1948 war and the establishment of the state of Israel between us. We mounted a frontal assault on all the myths that have come to surround the birth of Israel and the first Arab Israeli war. Benny Morris his book was called the Birth of a Palestinian refugee problem, 1947-1949. And the Zionist narrative said that the UN voted for the partition of Palestine into two states in 1947, a Jewish state and Arab state. The Arabs rejected the partition resolution, the Jews accepted it, the Arabs went to war, and in the course of this war, the Palestinians left Palestine. In fact, there were three quarters of a million Palestinians who became refugees. And the old history says they left of their own free will or on orders from above. And Benny Morris demonstrated in detail, using Israeli documents, that Israel was largely responsible for the birth of the Palestinian refugee problem. And Elan Pape has written a book about it called the Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine. Ilan Pape also wrote another book called Britain and the Arab Israeli conflict 1948-1951. The Zionist narrative claimed that towards the end of the British mandate in Palestine, Britain rejected partition, rejected a Jewish state and encouraged and armed its Arab allies to invade Palestine on expiry of the mandate to strangle the Jewish state at birth. And Ilan Pape wrote a PhD thesis in 1984 in St Anthony's College, Oxford. And I was the external examiner of his PhD thesis. And in that thesis, all the ideas of the new history are present in one form or another. But the main thesis is that There is a case against Britain as the Mandate approach its inglorious end. It's not that he tried to prevent the birth of a Jewish state, but rather that it worked behind the scenes to prevent the birth of a Palestinian state. My own book was called Collusion across the Jordan, King Abdullah, the Zionist Movement and the Partition of Palestine. And there I challenge two notions, two Zionist notions. One that was that in 1948 Israel faced a monolithic Arab coalition united behind the aim of genocide, of throwing the Jews into the sea. I showed that the Arab coalition was very divided. And one member of this coalition, King Abdullah of Transjordan, was in cahoots with the Zionists to divide Palestine between themselves at the expense of the Palestinians. And this is what happened. Finally, I challenged the myth that at the end, after the Gans fell silent, Israel's leaders strove with all their heart and all their mind to achieve peace with the Arabs. But there was no one to talk to on the Arab side. And I demonstrate, using Israeli documents, that there were pragmatic Arab leaders ready to negotiate, and did negotiate, that it was Israel which was intransigent, and it was Israel which was largely responsible for the perpetuation of the conflict until today.

[A]

I want to get to the implications of that, but first let me also ask you in terms of your own personal history. I literally just had this argument at Yom Kippur breakfast. I was told that that Israel consisted in 1948 of Arab Jews who were kicked out of the various Arab countries in that region and that's who established Israel. And I tried to explain. I think the sequencing is wrong. But your particular story, having been born and raised for the first, I believe it was five years of your life in Baghdad and your subsequent understanding of why you and the vast majority of Iraqi Jews move to Israel. Tell us that story.

[D]

It's a really interesting story. And my research, main research interest is the Arab Israeli conflict. And I've always known and I've written a number of books in which the Palestinians appear as the main victim of Zionism. But a few years ago I started working on an autobiography which was published two years ago under the heading Three Worlds Memoirs of an Arab Jew. And it goes up to when I was 18, and then there was a long epilogue about the evolution of my views about Israel Palestine until today. And the three worlds of the title are Baghdad, where I lived up to the age of five, Israel from five to 15, and London, where I went to school from 15 to 18. And in the course of writing this book, I realized that there was another victim of the Zionist movement and that's the Jews of the Arab lands, like my family and myself. And the Zionists have the theory of the double exodus about 1948. They claim that the Palestinians refugees left of their own accord and Israel was not responsible. And there was three quarters of a million of them. But there was rampant endemic antisemitism in the Arab world and that forced 850,000 Jews to go to Israel that they were driven out. So there was a double exodus, if you wish an exchange of population. And Israel is not guilty of anything, whereas my research demonstrated that it wasn't antisemitism. First of all, that there was a long history of Muslim Jewish coexistence. And secondly, that most of the Jews of Iraq, and there were 135,000, had deep roots in the country and wanted to stay. But the establishment of the state of Israel made it very difficult for them to stay because it generated a wave of hostility and also persecution by the government of the Jews. So it's the Zionist movement which was responsible for driving the Jews from the Arab lands to Israel. And in the specific case of Iraq, in 1950, 51, five bombs exploded in Jewish premises and that precipitated the exodus. 125,000 Jews left Iraq and ended up in Israel. And I found evidence that the Mossad was behind three out of the five bones. They used local Jewish Zionist activists to plant the bones in order to frighten Jews and precipitate the exodus to. So this is a very controversial argument. There have been rumors to that effect since 1948. But now I found actual evidence, written evidence as well as oral evidence that Israel was involved in uprooting the Jews of Iraq. Now, individual experiences of varied, but the community as a whole, for the community as a whole, the experience was like a tree being uprooted from the roots. And this phenomenon has been described as cruel Zionism. This is just one example of a pattern of false flag operations by Israel. That's cruel Zionism.

[C]

And would these tactics that you describe that you have uncovered through your work, does that fit into many of the British colonial tactics that you write about in the way that the Zionist project was implemented? Because obviously the Balfour Declaration looms large over all of this and what the British intentions were with the state of Palestine as well. Can you speak a little bit about that history and colonial tactics being continued through the Zionist Project?

[D]

That's a very important issue as the background to the conflict, to put it succinctly, the Israeli Palestinian conflict was made in Britain. And the Balfour Declaration of 1917 was the original sin, because in 1917, the Jews were 10% of the population, the Palestinians were 90% of the population, the Jews only owned 2% of the land. 2%. And yet Britain allocated national rights to the Jews by supporting a national home for the Jews in Palestine and denied national rights to the Arab majority. So it was a classic colonial document that disregarded the rights and aspirations of of the majority of the people. It was written, it was the Balfour Declaration which enabled the tiny Zionist movement to embark on the systematic takeover of the whole of Palestine. And it is this process that continues to this day. Now Israel is in control of 100% of Palestine. In 1936, an Arab revolt broke out in Palestine and it was the British army which suppressed the revolt with the utmost brutality. And the cornerstone of the British mandate in Palestine was that there must be no democracy, there must be no elections until the Jews became a majority. And this, the Jews only became a majority in 1948 as the result of the ethnic cleansing of Palestine. So Britain has a lot to answer for. And Britain was a colonial power, and the Zionist movement was a settler colonial movement. The state of Israel is a settler colonial state. And Noam Chomsky wrote that settler colonialism is the most extreme and vicious form of imperialism. And for the last century, the Palestinians have been at the receiving end of Zionist settler colonialism on the one hand, and Western imperialism on the other hand, first under Britain and subsequently under America. So I would conclude by saying that the war in Gaza, the genocide in Gaza, is the direct result of the Balfour Declaration, and that Zionism would never been able to achieve what it's achieved. And Israel would never be able to get away literally with murder and with genocide had it not been for the support of the imperial powers, of the Western powers. And today, when I look at on the second anniversary of the war in Gaza, I see that Britain and America are not just complicit in Israel's war crimes, they are active partners in committing these crimes against the Palestinian people.

[A]

How linear has been the Zionist disposition towards whatever the end game they had anticipated being or continued to anticipate being, I guess, a unified Israeli control over the land from the river to the sea. For lack of a better explanation, how linear has that trajectory been since the founding of Israel? Has there ever been a time where that has that agenda has moved in a different direction, or has it been linear more or less in that respect?

[D]

The trajectory has been linear not just since Israel was created, but Before Israel was created, when the Zionist movement emerged, because the Zionist aim, the Zionist ambition from the beginning was to create a Jewish state in as large an area of Palestine as possible, with as few Arabs within its borders as possible. So from the beginning Israel has been an expansionist country. And from the beginning land grabbing and expanding territory has been a murderer of Zionism. 1967 was a turning point because for the first time Israel had something very substantial to offer the Arabs in return for peace. It could trade land for peace. But no government, either Likud or Labor, agreed to a Palestinian state on terms that would be acceptable to the most moderate Palestinian leader. And after 9 June 1967, Israel immediately started building settlements in Gaza and on the West Bank. There was always talk about a two state solution. And it's now become fashionable to say that the two state solution is dead. And Netanyahu and his party and his coalition repeat every day adamantly that they would do they would never accept an independent Palestinian state. So I would say the trajectory since 1967 also has been towards expansion towards Greater Israel. But that's not to deny that there are differences of opinion between labor and Likud. Labor was prepared for the partition of Palestine and an independent Palestinian state, though its terms weren't good enough for the Palestinians, whereas the Likud denies any Palestinian rights anywhere in historic Palestine. And the policy guidelines of the present government are very explicit. They say, quote, the Jewish people have an exclusive right to self determination in the land of Israel. The Land of Israel means not just Israel proper, Israel within its 367 borders. It includes the west bank, which nationalist Israelis called Judea and Samaria. And the agenda of the present government is, and it's happening in reality. The agenda of the government is the ethnic cleansing of the west bank, the depopulating and reconquest and Israeli control over the Gaza spirit. And all this is. And for some of the extremists in the government, the explicit agenda is the formal annexation of the West Bank. So the agenda today, whatever it might have been in the past, the agenda is that of ethnic cleansing and Greater Israel.

[C]

Has there ever been to build off of some of what Sam asked about if this has always been linear, has there ever been a moment of true democracy for the Palestinians since the Zionist project came about and was undertaken? I've seen you refer to the Palestinian Authority as an Israeli subcontractor in the west bank, for example. I guess my question is, has there ever been a true moment of independent self governance where the Palestinians had true representation in some of these negotiations.

[D]

After Israel was established, there were 150,000 Arabs who remained within the borders of the State of Israel and they were given the right to vote. And Israel was always very proud of being a democracy, an island of democracy in a sea of authoritarianism. And it is true that the Arabs did have the vote and there was procedural democracy. There are parties, there were elections, there was Arab representation in the Knesset. But at the same time, from 1949 until 1966, the Arabs in Israel were under military rule with all sorts of restrictions. And there was, although they had the vote, there was discrimination against them at every level. There were second class citizens and a raft of legislation which discriminated against them. So I'm prepared to concede that until 1967, Israel had a procedural democracy. But since 1967, with Israeli control of the occupied territories, Israel in no sense can be described as a democracy. And a couple of years ago, there was a report by the Israeli human rights organization B'Tselem which called Israel an apartheid state and a Jewish supremacist state because all its previous reports had focused on violations of human rights inside Israel proper and discrimination against Israeli Arabs. But the last report looked at the situation between the river and the sea and it concluded that this is apartheid or ethnocracy. It's a space in which one ethnic group, the Jews, dominated the other ethnic group, the Arabs. Now you mentioned the Palestinian Authority. Well, it's in no sense an independent body which represents the wishes of the Palestinian people. The last election was in 2006 and Hamas won that election. So the Palestinian Authority lacks legitimacy. It's incompetent, it's corrupt, and it does nothing to protect the people. Under its rule, 40% of its budget goes towards security. But that's not Palestinian security, it's Israeli security. That's why I said that the Palestinian Authority is a subcontractor for Israeli security on the West Bank.

[A]

Professor, I know you've got to go in a moment. So the final question, your most recent book is Genocide in Gaza. You. I'm curious as to at what point over the course of the conflict now, which has lasted for two years, at what point do you feel that this has crossed the threshold of genocide? And where were we before that? I guess before that threshold was crossed.

[D]

It took me some time to conclude that what Israel is doing in Gaza is genocide, because genocide is a very, very serious charge. And it seemed to me that almost perverse to accuse the Jewish people of committing genocide of Arabs. Because the Jews had been the historic victims of Nazi genocide. And in my memoirs, I wrote, and it was a very critical book about Zionism, I wrote, for all its sins, Israel has not been guilty of genocide. It was a gradual process that led me to the conclusion that Israel is guilty of genocide. And the clincher for me was the stopping of humanitarian aid from reaching the civilian population in Gaza. It's the use of starvation as a weapon of war, which is a clear indication of genocide. But another reason that led to this conclusion is the 1948 Convention for the Prevention and Punishment of Genocide. And it gives a clear definition. Genocide is the intent to destroy in whole or in part, an ethnic or religious or racial group. And there are two aspects of this. The intent to commit genocide and then the practical actions on the ground. And Israel is guilty of both. In this last book of mine, Genocide in Gaza, there are six pages of quotes from Israeli leaders, from the President and the Prime Minister down, which are clearly genocidal statements. So there is no doubt about the rhetoric. But secondly, Israel's actions on the ground also amount to genocide. The complete destruction of Gaza, destroying 80% of the housing and civilian infrastructure, the forcible displacement of civilians, which is a war crime. And for the last two years, Israel has been committing this war crime on a daily basis. Some people have been told to move 10 times or more. And when these people obey the Israeli orders to evacuate, they're often bombed from the air and in the areas that the IDF defines as safe zones. So there is no safe areas left in Gaza. And Israel has killed, by the last count, over 66,000 people. It's killed 20,000 children. It's made many children orphans. So this is genocide, which is live streamed on our screens every day. That's what is unusual about the Israeli genocide in Gaza. First, that it's openly declared that the aim is to make Gaza completely uninhabitable, to wipe Gaza off the map. And secondly, that it is live streamed.

[A]

Avi Shlaim, Emeritus professor of International Relations at University of Oxford, your most recent book, Genocide in Israel's Long War on Palestine. We will link to that at Majority FM and in our podcast and YouTube descriptions. Thank you so much for your time today. Really appreciate it and all of the work that you have done over these many decades now. Really, thank you.

[D]

Thank you as well.

[A]

Thanks so much. All right, folks, we're going to head into the fun half now. We had two IMs that I think are worth mentioning during that Labor. Churchill says Britain's involvement in the Zionist project started within months of deciding to convert the Royal Navy from coal to oil. Interesting. And Midwest Ranch says if you enjoyed this interview with Avi Schlaim, could not recommend 100 Years War on Palestine by Rashid Khalidi. More We've had Khalidi on I think twice. I'm reading that right now.

[D]

It's in my backpack.

[F]

Joe Biden was reading it last year.

[C]

Oh my God, that photo op. I forgot.

[A]

But go back. What are the dates that we had Khalidi on? We interviewed him, I think twice in the past couple of years. March 24, 2024. March 24, 2024. Yes. And maybe one subsequent maybe this year early.

[C]

Rashid Khalidi, I don't know if we mentioned this on the show, has left Colombia in basically kind of in protest of their repression of free expression when it comes to the issue of Palestine.

[F]

So yeah, as he called it, Vichy on the Hudson.

[A]

Vichy.

[F]

Vichy.

[A]

Sorry folks, just a reminder to your support that makes this show possible. You can become a [e-mail] and when you do, not only do you get to hear the rare opportunity for me to correct someone else's pronunciation, you also get to help this show survive and thrive. You get the free show free of commercials and you can imus during the fun half. Also, just coffee co op, fair trade coffee, hot chocolate, use the coupon code, majority get 10% off. Great mix of coffees there. Great co op in Madison, Wisconsin. Just coffee co op use the coupon code, majority, you will get 10% off. Matt.

[F]

Yeah, as to my pronunciation of Vichy, all I have to say is this global.

[D]

Info Intifada. Intifada.

[C]

Intifada.

[F]

And tonight Justin Chen, a union president representing federal workers and also an environmental engineer at the EPA to talk about the shutdown. And also a story about a Green Beret who is sort of built a mythology around him being a sort of manosphere influencer. That is all tonight at that's by Michael Sierra Arevalo tonight, 7 o' clock Eastern where 50,000 other people have subscribed to Left Reckoning because they like what we offer on a weekly basis. So if you want to help us get to 100,000, you can subscribe at Left Reckoning on YouTube.

[A]

Carly Chirk says my max left hat has gotten so many comments I didn't realize how many majority reporters are in New Orleans with me. I even met a guy named Bob who said he wrote the AM Quick. Oh wow, you saw Bob? Oh shoot, I can't remember. Bob hit who he works for. I don't know if I wanna. He works for the labor department. He's like nabbing bad guys now. But yes. Bob used to work on the AM Quickie. Very nice guy. You can get a max left hat and then meet all sorts of new people in your your town. Go to shop. Majorityreportradio.com also don't forget am quickie. Bob used to write for it. Now it's Whitney and Corey and they're doing a great job. Corey's been here since the beginning. Am quickie.com free email three times a week. You want to upgrade? Help support the email. You can do that. But three emails per week. News of the day. Am quickie.com now time for the fun half. Three months from now, six months from now, nine months from now. And I don't think it's going to be the same as it looks like in six months from now. And I don't know if it's necessarily going to be better six months from now than it is three months from now. But I think around 18 months out we're going to look back and go like wow. What?

[D]

What is that going on?

[A]

It's nuts. Wait a second. Hold on for. Hold on for a second. Emma. Welcome to the program. Matt. What is up everyone? Fun hat. No. Mickey.

[C]

You did it.

[A]

Fun half.

[C]

Let's go Brandon.

[A]

Let's go, Brandon. Bradley, you want to say hello? Sorry to disappoint everyone. I'm just a random guy. It's all the boys today.

[C]

Fundamentally false. No. I'm sorry.

[A]

Women. Stop talking for a second.

[C]

Let me finish. Where is this coming from?

[A]

Dude. But.

[D]

Dude.

[A]

You want to smoke this? 7A.

[C]

Yes.

[A]

Hi. Me is me. Yes. Is this me? Is it me? It is you. Is this me? I think it is you. Who is you? No sound every single freaking day. What's on your mind?

[C]

Sports.

[E]

We can discuss Freeman markets and we can discuss capitalism.

[A]

I'm going to go smart. Libertarians.

[F]

They're so stupid.

[A]

Though common sense says of course.

[C]

Gobbledygook.

[A]

We nailed him.

[C]

So what's 79 plus 21 challenge?

[A]

Man. I'm positively quivering. I believe 96. I want to say. 857-210-855-011. 3 8.

[F]

911 for instance.

[C]

$3400. $1900. 5 4.

[A]

$3 trillion dollars. Sold. It's a zero sum game. Actually.

[C]

You're making me think less.

[A]

But. But let me say this. Call it satire.

[B]

Sam goes satire on top of it all. My favorite part about you is just like every day all day, like everything you do.

[A]

Without a doubt. Hey, buddy. We seen you. All right, folks, folks, folks.

[C]

It's just the week being weeded out. Obviously.

[A]

Yeah. Sun's out, guns out. I. I don't know.

[C]

But you should know.

[A]

People just don't like to entertain ideas anymore. I have a question. Who cares?

[F]

Our chat is enabled, folks.

[A]

I love it.

[C]

I do love that.

[A]

Gotta jump. Gotta be quick. I gotta jump. I'm losing it, bro. Two o', clock, we're already late, and the guy's being a dick.

[D]

So screw him.

[A]

Sent to a gulag.

[C]

Outrageous.

[A]

Like, what is wrong with you? Love you. Bye. Love you.

[C]

Bye.

[A]

Bye.