3602 - Will Gaza Cease Fire Hold? The Making of Musk w/ Mouin Rabbani, Jacob Silverman

Summary

The Majority Report with Sam Seder – Episode 3602

Date: October 14, 2025
Title: Will Gaza Cease Fire Hold? The Making of Musk w/ Mouin Rabbani, Jacob Silverman

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Episode Overview

In this episode, Sam Seder and Emma Vigland focus on two major long-form interviews: one with Mouin Rabbani, a non-resident fellow at the Center for Conflict and Humanitarian Studies, about the ongoing ceasefire deal between Israel and Hamas; the other with Jacob Silverman, author of Gilded Rage: Elon Musk and the Radicalization of Silicon Valley and host of the The Making of Musk podcast.

The hosts address major developments in global and domestic politics, including the recent hostage exchanges in Gaza, the ceasefire’s fragility, impacts of public and political pressure, and the broad consequences of Elon Musk’s ventures for US society and politics.

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Main Themes

1. Gaza Ceasefire: Its Details, Fragility & Political Stakes
2. Inside Silicon Valley: Elon Musk’s Radicalization and Influence

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Gaza Ceasefire: Context, Mechanics, and Implications

[22:06–51:41] Guest: Mouin Rabbani

A. Background: From War to Ceasefire Deal

• The current ceasefire follows an aggressive Israeli military campaign in Gaza, resumed after prior agreements were unilaterally broken by Israel with US acquiescence in January 2025.
• Turning point: Israeli bombing in Qatar seeking to assassinate Hamas’s negotiating team alarmed Gulf states about their own security, forcing them to intervene and pressure the US to act.

B. The Ceasefire Agreement – Structure & Shortcomings

• A US-brokered, Trump-announced three-phase plan includes:
  • Immediate hostage exchange, cessation of hostilities, incremental Israeli withdrawal, and humanitarian aid.
    • "Hamas and Israel reached agreement on those immediate issues... now being implemented, at least in significant part." (Rabanni, 25:23)
  • "Post-war arrangements," proposing foreign governance over Gaza (e.g., Tony Blair as "colonial viceroy")—categorically rejected by Hamas.
  • Vague gestures toward Palestinian self-determination but no concrete steps—summed up as “not a peace plan, just a ceasefire” by Rhabbani.

C. Arab State Involvement and the US Dynamic

• Gulf states’ leverage comes from massive investment promises to Trump, but also rising fears that Israeli aggression jeopardizes their own stability.
• Quote: “Money not only talks, it screams, and it screams very loudly.” (Rabanni, 29:12)
• Regional security cooperation with Israel—ostensibly to contain Iran—was detailed in a Washington Post exposé, but some Arab states are newly wary, seeing Israel as "the regional arsonist" (31:41).

D. Fragility & Enforcement of Ceasefire

• “Israel's interpretation of a ceasefire in Gaza is... the Palestinians cease, but Israel continues to fire.” (34:00)
• No robust, automatic mechanisms to prevent Israeli violations: "Ultimately... only one mechanism, and that is the United States." (34:00)
• Failure to address root causes—occupation, lack of Palestinian rights—almost certainly sets the stage for future crises.

E. US Domestic & International Pressure

• US policy remains driven by Gulf investments and lobbying, but also subject to growing MAGA base divisions and grassroots Western solidarity mobilizations.
  • "Ignore these constituencies at their peril... that message is increasingly getting through to the political class." (36:00)
• Trump’s transactional style is underscored: “He was meeting with certain Muslim representatives prior to the election... in order to shore some of that up, however paper thin it is.” (37:56)

F. Hamas' Role Post-Ceasefire

• Trump regime accepts that Hamas controls enforcement in Gaza until a governance deal is reached.
  • “On Air Force One... Trump’s response was, I know about this, it has my consent and authorization.” (41:30)
• Hostage exchanges only partially successful for Hamas; many prominent Palestinian prisoners remain, including Marwan Barghouti—a potential unity leader that Israel and PA leadership colluded to keep imprisoned.

G. Ongoing Restrictions & Humanitarian Fallout

• Half of Gaza remains off-limits to returning Palestinians; Israeli withdrawals are staggered and not guaranteed, further constricting the population and humanitarian flows.

H. Memorable Lines

• “We are discussing a ceasefire proposal, not a peace plan. Unless there is... an effort to address and resolve the underlying root causes... we are counting down to the eruption of the next catastrophic crisis. It will be inevitable.” (50:23)

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2. Elon Musk, Silicon Valley, and the Radicalization of Tech Elites

[53:10–79:16] Guest: Jacob Silverman

A. The Ascent and Radicalization of Elon Musk

• Musk’s shift from tech mogul to erratic right-wing influencer traced to his public meltdown over the “Woke Mind virus” and intensifying culture-war grievances.
  • “He was becoming... obsessed with cultural grievances... but wasn’t quite yet devoting himself to politics in a public way.” (54:42)

B. Tech Elites, the Trump Campaign & Authoritarian Alignments

• Coordination between Silicon Valley powerbrokers (Peter Thiel, David Sacks, etc.), the selection of J.D. Vance as VP, and Musk’s eventual support for Trump are linked by converging economic and ideological interests—especially on crypto, deregulation, and foreign policy.
  • “The attempted assassination was this big, theatrical moment that appealed... to the sense that they were under siege alongside Trump.” (56:18)

C. Silicon Valley’s Political Transformation

• Pandemic, Black Lives Matter, Gaza protests, and other disruptions pushed many tech leaders further right; government contracts and fear of regulation catalyzed overt political realignment and opportunism.
  • “Government is no longer... an adversary... this is where you’re going to make a lot of money.” (58:03)

D. Musk and Twitter/X: What Was the Real Plan?

• Intentions for Twitter acquisition shifted from fantasies of an “everything app” to creating an explicit right-wing megaphone, algorithmically promoting conservative voices.
  • “It became that tool towards promoting Trump maybe a little bit later... that was bolted on as a sense of purpose.” (63:11)

E. Tech Platforms, Crime Panic, and Right-Wing Messaging

• Deliberate amplification of “urban crime” and social decay narratives on X/Twitter and Instagram—serving surveillance capitalism and building support for anti-democratic policies.
  • “These were daily or constant things that came to represent the failures of San Francisco, of Democratic governance, of liberals. And Musk was a big part of that.” (64:11)

F. "Project DOGE" and the Government Data Grab

• Musk’s brief but chaotic stint as government consultant (“DOGE”) was, according to congressional staffers, as much about looting sensitive government data (e.g., Social Security, financial markets) as about “reform,” with data funneled into his AI ventures, notably XAI.

G. Crypto & Tech Oligarchy: Systemic Financial Risk

• Crypto's mainstream financial integration now largely uncontrollable. Legislative moves and lax regulation mean US citizens are exposed to crypto volatility, mostly through backdoor institutional investments.
  • “There are all these ways in which people are going to be exposed to crypto and to a potential crash in crypto, which we know is coming.” (74:36)
• The current administration’s financial corruption and dependence on crypto is painted as a singular historical threat.

H. Data Centers, AI, and New Political Flashpoints

• The real-world costs of tech expansion—e.g., rising energy prices due to data centers and AI infrastructure—are becoming salient populist and climate concerns, possibly spurring new anti-tech backlash:
  • “When you talk about electricity bills going up 200%, and it’s because they’re building this data center near you... It can be politically galvanizing.” (77:44)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Mouin Rabbani (on the ceasefire):
  • “Decisions about a partial or full scale resumption of hostilities... are going to be made by the United States. If you see Israel bombing Palestinians... that means it has... the passive acquiescence of Washington.” (42:41)
• Jacob Silverman (on Musk):
  • “Ultimately... as we ramped up towards the election... X became that tool towards promoting Trump.” (63:11)
• Rabbani (on Arab states’ role):
  • “Money not only talks, it screams, and it screams very loudly.” (29:12)
• Silverman (on crypto risk):
  • “...People are going to be exposed to crypto and to a potential crash in crypto, which we know is coming whether they like it or not.” (74:36)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Gaza Ceasefire, Context & Mechanisms: [22:06–31:41]
• Arab States, US Dynamics, Security Relationships: [29:12–32:59]
• Ceasefire Enforcement, US Leverage: [34:00–36:00]
• Hamas’ Position, Hostage Exchange: [39:29–49:17]
• Ceasefire’s Humanitarian Limits & Concessions: [49:17–51:23]
• Closing Reflections on Prospects for Peace: [50:23–51:23]
• Elon Musk Radicalization & “Woke Mind Virus:” [54:12–56:18]
• Tech Oligarchy and US Political Power: [58:03–60:00]
• Musk’s Twitter Takeover and Propaganda: [60:42–65:28]
• DOGE, US Data, and Federal Disruption: [66:41–68:48]
• Crypto and Financial System Risk: [73:07–76:51]
• Energy Costs, Data Centers as Populist Issue: [77:44–78:29]

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Episode Tone & Style

• The conversation is lively, skeptical, and deeply informed, blending irreverence, directness, and moral urgency.
• Both interviews are characterized by unflinching exploration of power, hypocrisy, and consequences from both state and corporate actors.

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Takeaway

This episode provides a sobering, incisive analysis of two pressing global crises—the Gaza ceasefire’s fragility and the unchecked rise of tech-baron power in American politics. Both stories, as the guests and hosts argue, reveal how real pressure for justice and accountability must come from organized public action, given the absence of meaningful accountability from traditional political and economic powers.

Transcript

[Emma Vigland]

You are listening to a free version of Majority Report with Sam Steder. To support the show and get another 15 minutes of daily program, go to Majority FM please.

[Sam Seder]

The Majority Report with Sam Cedar. It is Tuesday, October 14, 2025. My name is Sam Seder. This is the five time award winning Majority Report. We are broadcasting live steps from the industrially ravaged Gowanus Canal in the heartland of America, downtown Brooklyn, usa. On the program today, Mohan Rabini, non resident fellow with the center for Conflict and Humanitarian Studies on the ongoing ceasefire deal between Israel and Hamas. Then Jacob Silverman, journalist, author of Gilded Rage, Elon Musk and the Radicalization of Silicon Valley and host of the podcast companion the Making of Must as part of the CBC's Understood series. Meanwhile, Israel and Hamas exchange hostages as Palestinians survey Israel's colossal destruction in the Gaza Strip. State 14 of the government shutdown. Trump will not let Mike Johnson negotiate anything, at least in part because he's afraid of that 218th vote and releasing the Epstein files. Trump's latest tariffs on lumber and furniture kick in.

[Emma Vigland]

Oh, just in time for me to move apartments.

[Sam Seder]

And meanwhile, he also ramps up a trade war with China. And it looks like the US Is going to lose. New York Times, ap, even Newsmax say they will not capitulate to the Pentagon's approved news oath. Black residents in Louisiana and North Carolina targeted for loss of voting power in Republican redistricting plans. New study. Private equity takeover in hospitals causes an increase in deaths.

[Emma Vigland]

No way.

[Sam Seder]

Also an increase in private equity profits. Sounds efficient. Layoffs and layback ons at the CDC as Covid quiet lines quietly encourage pregnant women to get vaccines or vaccinated. And thousands of Kaiser health workers on strike in Northern California. All this and much, much more on today's Majority Report. Welcome, ladies and gentlemen.

[Emma Vigland]

It is news day Tuesday.

[Sam Seder]

Newsday Tuesday. We've got a couple of interviews. Yes, it's a little bit weird because we weren't here yesterday. Although the crack and do we have a photo? We're gonna show the photo of you guys. Matt and Brian.

[Emma Vigland]

Yes.

[Sam Seder]

Were basically in the control center of.

[Emma Vigland]

The United Palace, Hamas's command and control center.

[Sam Seder]

Deeply deep in a bunker at the Hamas rally. Excuse me, the.

[Emma Vigland]

I have it here.

[Sam Seder]

They were in the command and control bunker of the United palace up in Washington Heights around 175th and Broadway. And we're running the streaming for everybody who got live streamed. Yeah. Here's a picture of these two guys. I sent it to Emma.

[Emma Vigland]

Yeah, I was unsure. I can't believe I missed this to be honest with you. But I took my third. There they are. Oh, I saw this and I was, like, so sad I missed it. But I took my third Covid shot or test this morning, and I'm negative. But I didn't want to be a super spreader. Either way, it looked. It looked amazing.

[Sam Seder]

And you can see Brian has that look on his face of, like, old hat. Who's been there for so long, he's just like, whatever. Another rally. I was dressed so much like a union guy. Nobody asked me for my credentials anywhere in that building.

[Emma Vigland]

It really. That equipment is nice. We should have asked them. Do they have any stuff to spare?

[Sam Seder]

Matt tried to stick it in his backpack as we left. So we'll talk a little bit more about that rally. But Zoram Hamdani is gaining steam. Kathy Hochul, the New York State governor who was at first hesitant to endorse his candidacy after he won the Democratic nomination. He's incidentally the Democratic nominee for mayor. There is no other. Andrew Cuomo continues in the race in a very lackluster fashion. And of course, Hakeem Jeffries and Chuck Schumer, the nominally most powerful Democrats elected to office in the country, have neglected to endorse the Democratic nominee for the mayor of New York City. I imagine at one point they'll come with their tails between their legs and endorse Mamdani. But, you know, and I think Mamdani, one of the things that I think we've come to understand about him as a politician is he's extremely pragmatic. He is not a vindictive person. He's looking to actually help people in a material fashion. And that is going to. His ability to do that is only going to be increased by having good relations with a lot of these politicians who. But I am not like that as a person. And if Hakeem Jeffries and Chuck Schumer came around now to endorse me and it was clear that their endorsement would mean little at this point, I would tell them to suck an egg, frankly, and probably in a lot less polite.

[Mohan Rabini]

Not Kentucky fried French fries.

[Sam Seder]

That's.

[Emma Vigland]

I really. I like. I hope they don't endorse at all. It makes them more obsolete by the second. So keep digging your own gr. Democratic leadership.

[Sam Seder]

Ironically the. Or not ironically. The evening was entitled Our Time has Come. And it really became clear that for someone like Jeffries and Schumer, their time has passed. And that's becoming clearer day by day. We'll also talk about Janet Mills, who is Chuck Schumer. And Christian Gillibrand's favorite pick to run in the main Senate Democratic primary. And new polling out shows Graham Platner beating her amongst Democrats and then every other constituency possible in Maine short of people who work in the governor's office.

[Emma Vigland]

Right.

[Sam Seder]

And that is it. I think literally that's the only one of the sort of the cross tabs, as it were.

[Emma Vigland]

But have you considered that she, quote, or she didn't think she could, quote, live with herself? Myself, she said if she did not run because it's all about Janet Mills.

[Matt]

And how she feels about her own.

[Sam Seder]

Career, we want her to be 77. Yeah.

[Emma Vigland]

What do you mean, live with yourself?

[Matt]

We both have no idea.

[Emma Vigland]

You can probably live with yourself a few more years before you end up dying.

[Mohan Rabini]

Yeah.

[Matt]

Go on vacation.

[Sam Seder]

She has, however, agreed that she insisted that she will only serve one term if elected.

[Emma Vigland]

Inspiring.

[Sam Seder]

Aside from the fact that, like, I'd like to see you not do just one term. See how that goes.

[Emma Vigland]

You know who also said that?

[Sam Seder]

Also said that. Exactly. We saw how well that worked out. All right, but let's move on with this J.D. vance, who is ostensibly going to be Donald Trump's replacement. God forbid anything happened to Donald Trump over the next couple of years, but ostensibly Donald Trump will not run again. And then J.D. vance would be considered probably to be the front runner on day one anyways. But who knows how long that would last. Because when you see him actually perform in these moments, there's something very off about this guy. He doesn't have the charm, he's whiny. And this sort of backfired for him because in his attempt to cow George Stephanopoulos into not asking this question, it has raised the profile again of something that is just astonishing. A story that I tell you right now, if it happened during the Biden administration, would have been a six week story. If it happened, you know, 15 years ago, would have been a dramatic story. And it is the story of the head of ice, you know, known in sort of like in terms of vernacular as the Gestapo. They are masked soldiers who are going around with barely any training other than an intense disdain for immigrants and people of color salads. And. Oh, he's the Border SAR too.

[Emma Vigland]

Czar. Yeah. I don't think he's technically the head of ice, but he's the spokesperson for their most horrific.

[Sam Seder]

Yeah, I don't think he's been able to be appointed, but we know that he's running things and he has had to lay low because a story broke that in the run up to the election. He was fingered by people that the FBI was investigating as somebody you could go and bribe. And so the FBI delivered to him undercover $50,000 in cash in a fast food bag. And here is and of course then the, the Trump administration DOJ dropped the case. Here is JD Vance being asked about it.

[J.D. Vance]

George, I saw media reports that Tom Homan accepted a bribe. There's no evidence of that. And here's George, why fewer and fewer people watch your program and why you're losing credibility because you're talking for now five minutes with the vice president United States about this story regarding Tom Home in a story that I've read about, but I don't even know the video that you're about. Talking, talking about meanwhile low income positive for a second.

[Sam Seder]

What does that mean? I've read about but I don't know the video you're talking about. There's video and it's unclear to me whether it's there's video or audio, but there is definitely a recording of Tom Homan accepting $50,000 in cash. Now it is there's questions as to whether it was illegal because he didn't have an official position. He just promised that if he was in an official position in the Trump administration he would shove deals towards this probably private prison or fake private prison executive that was actually an FBI agent.

[Emma Vigland]

And he's not even denying the video part. He's saying he hasn't seen it. And it's the same thing that Homan is doing publicly with his defense where he's claiming it wasn't illegal for those reasons. But no one is denying that the video exists because it exists.

[J.D. Vance]

Tom Holman, a story that I've read about, but I don't even know the video that you're talking about. Meanwhile, low income women can't get food because the Democrats and Chuck Schumer have shut down the government. Right now we're trying to figure out how to pay our troops because Chuck Schumer has shut down the government. You are focused on a bogus story. You're insinuating criminal wrongdoing against a guy who has done nothing wrong instead of focusing on the fact that, that our country is struggling because your TV program about the real issues. George, I think the American people would benefit much more from that than from you going down some weird left wing rabbit hole where the facts clearly show that Tom Homan didn't engage in any criminal wrongdoing.

[Sam Seder]

It's not a weird left wing rabbit hole. I didn't insinuate anything. I asked you whether Tom Holman accepted $50,000 as was heard on an audio tape recorded by the FBI in September 2024, and you did not answer the question. Thank you for your time this morning.

[J.D. Vance]

We know I said that. I don't.

[Sam Seder]

Up next, we'll be right back. We came to that late. I mean, he had asked him the question twice. We got into that, that clip late, but he asked the question twice. He refused to answer it. And it is, it is stunning. The guy took $50,000. Now, I don't know why. George Stephanopoulos, like I say, he had asked the question prior to that, didn't say he just got $50,000. There's a bigger clip too. Where Vance, at the beginning of that, his first answer, where he says, Tom Holman's been paid for a lot of businesses. Yeah, you know, it was.

[Emma Vigland]

But he at least cut him off there and was like, I'm not, we're cutting you off. I'm not letting you filibuster.

[Sam Seder]

Because that was after the second go round.

[Emma Vigland]

Right.

[Sam Seder]

But the bottom line is like, I'm sorry, Tom Holman, I'm sure has received checks for $50,000 or wire transfer, $50,000. But how do you invoice a bag of $50,000 cash coming from an entity that is fake, incidentally, because they're actually FBI agents.

[Emma Vigland]

Yeah. And this is. ProPublica has reported on this before that prior to, in 2017, when he was in the private sector, he had assets that he declared of a maximum of $250,000. But in 2025, his net worth has grown to between 3 million and $9 million. And there's not a lot of paper trail evidence to support how that came to be. Sounds like there were some Kaaba bags elsewhere.

[Sam Seder]

All right, in a moment we're going to be talking to Mohan Rabini, new resident fellow at the center for Conflict and Humanitarian Studies. First, a couple words from our sponsors. Sometimes searching for the right doctor can be like, you know, filling out one of those old mad lib things. You need a blank specialist who takes your blank insurance, who is within blank miles of you, who doesn't have a blank month to wait for you to get an appointment, and et cetera, et cetera. I mean, the, it is, it's like some type of like cross tabs polling game that you've got to line up. Well, ZOCDOC makes it easy to fill in those blanks and help you find the right doctor for your specific needs. Zocdoc is a free app and it's a website app or website where you can search and compare high quality in network doctors and click to instantly book an appointment. You can book in network appointments with doctors across every specialty. Doesn't matter. Mental health, dental health, primary care, urgent care, more you can filter for doctors who take your specific insurance, are located nearby and are a good fit for any medical need you have. Once you find the right doctor, you can see their actual appointment openings. Choose a time slot. You can do all of this. You don't have to call and negotiate and find out like you give me a date. No, you give me a date. You find that one that works for you. You click instantly to book a visit. Appointments made through ZOCDOC also happen fast, typically within 24 to 72 hours of booking. You can even score same day appointments. This saved me on a tooth emergency I had a year or so ago. I was out of town, got on zocdoc, found a dentist, found that they took my dental insurance. Be that as I may, and it worked out well for me. I know you guys have both used.

[Emma Vigland]

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[Sam Seder]

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[Jacob Silverman]

Sam.

[Sam Seder]

We are back. Sam Cedar, Emma Vigland on the Majority Report. It's a pleasure to welcome to the program Muan Rabani. He's a non resident fellow with the center for Conflict and Humanitarian Studies. One thank you so much for joining us.

[Mohan Rabini]

It's very good to be with you. Thank you.

[Sam Seder]

Let's start with if you could characterize the nature of or I guess maybe even the specifics of this ceasefire to the extent we know all of them, which for the most part we do, but also relative to what had been agreed to and then unilaterally subsequently broken in January of This year?

[Mohan Rabini]

Well, let's start with January. In January, the incoming Trump administration essentially compelled Israel to accept an agreement that had been on the table at least since May, according to the Qatari mediators, for a year. But it later emerged that Trump's main priority was to have a diplomatic achievement and not a foreign policy crisis. On the day of his inauguration, on the 20th of January, that was a three stage agreement. And at the end of the first stage, the United States basically authorized Israel to unilaterally renege on it, to resume its genocidal military campaign in the Gaza Strip and to continue until last week. I think the key turning point was the US bombing, rather the Israeli bombing of Qatar several weeks ago or several months ago, in which it sought to assassinate the Hamas negotiating team, which was meeting to consider a proposal that had been forwarded to them by the United States. That attack failed, but it also made clear to Washington's closest Arab allies in the Gulf that they were not safe from Israel, that their national security, their sovereignty also hung in the balance, and that the US was prepared to support bombings of their capitals by Israel. And in that context, a number of Arab leaders and leaders of Muslim states met with Trump on the sidelines of the UN General assembly last month and impressed upon him the need to bring this crisis to an end because it was now affecting them directly. They worked out a 21 point proposal. Netanyahu showed up in Washington, managed to introduce substantial revisions into that proposal, and it was unveiled on 29 September at a joint press conference at the White House between Trump and Netanyahu. That proposal deals with three sets of issues. The first is the immediate crisis, if you will, an exchange of captives, a cessation of hostilities, an Israeli beginnings of an Israeli withdrawal from the Gaza Strip, and a surge in humanitarian aid into the Gaza Strip where famine conditions have taken. Ro On 8 October, Hamas and Israel reached agreement on that on those immediate issues, and that is what is now being implemented, at least in significant part. The second part of that proposal deals with what are known as post war arrangements, governance and administration of the Gaza Strip, the issues of Palestinian weapons and so on. Hamas has not accepted those elements of the Trump proposal and those still remain to be negotiated. And particular sticking point is going to be this idea of turning Gaza into a kind of foreign protectorate which will be presided over by a colonial viceroy, none other than Tony Blair. And this is something that the Palestinians have categorically rejected, has been reluctantly accepted by the Palestinian Authority. But I think that proposal is essentially dead in the water. What hasn't been addressed, except in the most tangential manner, are the political issues that have produced the crisis that we're now discussing. And unless those are addressed, we're essentially going back to the situation that existed on October 6, 2023, in which the countdown to the next catastrophic eruption has already begun.

[Sam Seder]

What was the third point in those things? Post war arrangements, weapons? And then is the third point long term?

[Mohan Rabini]

Yeah, yeah, the third one. Let's say that the broader political issues were essentially the proposal said nothing. It merely noted for the record that Palestinians have an aspiration, an aspiration, not a right to national self determination and statehood. But beyond that, it said nothing. And that was confirmed yesterday at this summit in Sharm El Sheikh where the leaders of the United States, Egypt, Turkey and Qatar signed this document. And if you read it, it basically does little more than, you know, hail. Trump is the greatest peacemaker in history and says that everyone wants peace, but what exactly that peace is supposed to be, what it looks like, what are the rights of the Palestinians and so on. None of that is dealt with an even cursory fashion in this document.

[Sam Seder]

That was, you mentioned that at the.

[Mohan Rabini]

UN.

[Sam Seder]

Leaders from Qatar and perhaps other Arab nations impressed upon Trump their need to rein in Israel. What was the nature of, what did they say? What did they say to impress upon Trump? I mean, it was right around that time there was a $1 billion deal, another one announced, I believe it was in Jeddah for Trump Inc. In Saudi Arabia is in the past at least. You know, it has seemed to me that there have been times where you have the leadership of some of these countries responding to the so called Arab street. That dynamic seems to have been completely absent as far as, you know, most of the reporting to the extent that, you know, get a sense of it. But the, and somewhat replaced by a, perhaps that is sort of like the, the incentive structure for these countries to also sort of offer Donald Trump, like we can, we can have a deal here in terms of like putting money in your pocket, more or less. Is that, is that the dynamic that's happening here?

[Mohan Rabini]

Well, I don't think Arab public opinion played a direct role in producing the proposal that we're now discussing. What I do think is fair to say is, as you'll recall, when Trump had his victory tour in the Gulf earlier this year, he got commitments of massive investments from Qatar, from Saudi Arabia, from the United Arab Emirates, in the United States. And in US Politics, of course, money not only talks, it screams, and it screams very loudly. But I think what was important in this meeting was all these states and a number of leaders of Muslim states, Turkey, Pakistan and Indonesia. They all made clear to Trump that this crisis needs to be brought to an end for a number of reasons. And given that this meeting included leaders of the countries that have pledged these massive investments in the U.S. i think Trump was genuinely attentive to their concerns, let's put it that way.

[Emma Vigland]

You mentioned some of these Arab countries. There was reporting in the Washington Post over the weekend about the extent of the kind of behind the scenes security collaboration with the United States, with Israel and some of these other countries that hadn't previously been reported. And what seems to be the connection connecting, kind of motivation is a shared hawkishness towards Iran. Can you talk a little bit about that reporting and how it fits into the, you know, abdication of responsibility towards the Palestinian neighbors by many of these leaders?

[Mohan Rabini]

Well, as we've seen the past two years, Arab leaders as a whole have been quite content to play the role of inert spectators while Israel slaughters Palestinians in their own homeland. I think that's an attitude that's very sharply at variance with public opinion in the region. But where they draw the line is when Israel's plans for the Palestinians begins to impact directly on their territory, on their national security, on their domestic stability and legitimacy. That's why we saw them push back very hard against this so called Trump Riviera plan, in which Palestinians from the Gaza Strip and potentially from the west bank were basically going to be exported to Egypt, to Jordan and further afield. In terms of the specific issue you're raising, this Washington Post report showed that a number of Arab states have actually strengthened security relations and military relations with Israel during the past two years, quite contrary, you know, to their statements of condemnation of the genocide and so on. And the article identifies Iran as the main target of this military cooperation. I think we're now dealing with a rather different situation. First of all, Iran has of course been weakened. And many of these leaders now see Iran as essentially constrained, while Israel, which they have for years viewed as a valuable security and strategic partner, is now seen as kind of the regional arsonist, the regional pyromaniac that is being given an endless supply of fuel and matches by the United States, whether under Biden or were now under Trump. And I think this explains their changed attitude that we saw so clearly in their meeting with Trump on the sidelines of the UN General assembly last month.

[Sam Seder]

Is there any mechanism to even force Israel to adhere or both the parties for that matter to even just the first phase of this. I mean, seeing reports that Israel plans to diminish aid in Gaza because there have been. The remains of two hostages have not been returned.

[Emma Vigland]

They bombed a sanitation center in the north in retaliation for supposed celebration for prisoners being released. To add to what you're saying, yeah.

[Sam Seder]

Is there any mechanism, like automated mechanisms, or is it going to require. Because, you know, following something like this, the sort of, the media attention, the US Attention particularly, you know, with everything else that's going on with Trump seems to diminish, and it's one of those things, okay, we can check this off. Genocide ended. Is there any mechanism to hold the parties to account here?

[Mohan Rabini]

Well, if your question is about a specific mechanism incorporated into the terms of the agreement, I think the answer is no. I think there's a committee that's supposed to meet or whatever, but the answer is essentially no. Israel's interpretation of a ceasefire in Gaza is going to be very similar to what exists in Lebanon, where a ceasefire means that the Palestinians cease, but Israel continues to fire. And that's what we're already seeing in the Gaza Strip. There's ultimately really only one mechanism, and, and that is the United States. If the United States wants the ceasefire to be strictly upheld, it will make that clear to Israel, and Israel will have no choice what to obey. If Israel continues these kinds of attacks that you're asking me about, that means, at the very least, that it is doing so with the acquiescence and consent of the United States. Because I think, as you suggested, now that the Gaza genocide is no longer dominating the headlines, there's a feeling that less needs to be done and we can all move on to other things. And that, ultimately, I think, is what will cause either the collapse of this agreement or if it doesn't, produces the countdown to the next eruption of crisis.

[Sam Seder]

It feels like, though, for the United States to do that, based upon our recent history, regardless of Biden or Trump, whoever was in office, that that pressure, the only pressure that they seem to respond to is the pressure from.

[Jacob Silverman]

You.

[Sam Seder]

Know, Qatar or from Saudi Arabia, and that's just a function of some hotel deals at this point. I mean, has that line been drawn, like, directly enough? Because it feels like that seems to be the limiting principle here.

[Mohan Rabini]

I don't quite agree. I think we have seen these states using their leverage with Washington, and of course, they've always had this leverage with Washington, whether it's with Trump or Biden, going back all the way to any of their predecessors. What I think is different this time is that there are also other elements of pressure in addition to the leverage that can be brought to bear by states within the region. And it's not just the oil rich Gulf states. You also have, for example, Turkey, Pakistan, Egypt and others. But you have two other factors. First of all, you have the growing divisions within the MAGA base, where on the one hand you have, let's say, the Israel first constituency, the Christian Zionists, the neocons, the Iran hawks and so on. But on the other, we've also seen the emergence of the non interventionist faction, people who felt that it was not so much the Gaza genocide, but rather Israel's attack on Iran and specifically US participation in that attack that for them was the final straw. That's why you're seeing increasing criticism of Israel now from within that constituency. In addition, you have unprecedented popular mobilization in the west, particularly in Europe, but also in the United States. And I wouldn't simply dismiss the pressure of public opinion simply because it's primarily coming from the left. And Trump feels he can ignore it. You know, these, we already saw with the previous, with the recent presidential election in the US that you ignore these constituencies at their peril. And I think that message is increasingly getting through to the political class in many Western states.

[Emma Vigland]

Well, to buttress your point, I mean, Trump was incredibly transactional about it, but he was meeting with certain Muslim representatives prior to the election as well in order to kind of shore some of that up, however paper thin it is. I want to just turn to Hamas for a second because, you know, it feels like Trump kind of yanked Israel by the collar a little bit here. That's what it looks like, showing that Biden always had the ability to do this throughout the first part of the genocide. But there was this incredible clip, I mean, incredible in the sense that you couldn't believe the words were coming out of his mouth of Trump on, I believe Air Force One the other day speaking about how they should leave some of the police work in the immediate aftermath of the ceasefire to Hamas in the Gaza Strip. And can you lay out what that actually means? I mean, for me, this is Trump. Trump goes to the Trump likes if you're the most powerful group, if you're the biggest group, and Hamas still is that in the Gaza Strip, which is a failure of Netanyahu stated objectives, even though we know that those were false. But two, a failure of some of what Israel was trying to do in funding gangs that were fighting against Hamas internally in the Gaza Strip over the past two years of genocide. So if you could just give us a sense of where Hamas stands also in relation to this agreement.

[Mohan Rabini]

Well, we have this unprecedented situation where on 29th September, standing on a podium alongside Netanyahu at the White House, Trump unveiled his proposal, basically said Hamas has several days to unconditionally accept this without any ifs, ands or buts, and if they don't, they will face total obliteration. A few days later, Hamas responded to that proposal by accepting only elements of it, playing to Trump's narcissistic vanity by actually thanking him for putting out this proposal that essentially calls on Hamas to commit political suicide and ignoring those aspects of the proposal that they didn't like. And then you had this absolutely unprecedented situation where Trump reposted Hamas's response on his social media and proclaimed that they had accepted his proposal and therefore negotiations on its implementation could begin. In other words, the United States has now accepted that its proposal and the terms of its implementation are subject to negotiation and mutual agreement. Because of course, Palestinians were not even consulted on the formulation of this proposal, whereas Israel was very deeply involved. Now you have a situation where the future governance of the Gaza Strip remains to be negotiated and agreed. And in the meantime, there's an urgent need for the reestablishment of law and order within the Gaza Strip, within those areas from which Israel has withdrawn. And Hamas, as you mentioned, has reemerged in public with its arms, imposing law and order, taking on collaborationist militias that are being dispatched by Israel to foment chaos and disorder. And when Trump was asked about this on Air Force One on his way to the Middle east, his response was, well, we are aware of this, and in fact, we recognize the need for the imposition of law and order and the chaos that is a Gaza Strip until arrangements are concluded about the future governance of the Gaza Strip. And essentially was saying, I know about this, it has my consent and authorization. You know, whether he's simply taking credit for something he's unable to stop, or whether perhaps the Egyptian and Qatari or perhaps others mediators communicated this to Trump and sought his approval for it, is less clear.

[Emma Vigland]

Well, is it also a convenient pretext for future bombings for Netanyahu? Because when we're talking about his domestic political situation, Hamas re emerging immediately in the aftermath of this ceasefire is going to piss off everybody in his coalition, let alone even some of the so called liberal Israelis who want the hostages back but are okay with resuming the genocide once that occurs?

[Mohan Rabini]

That's a very good question. It certainly could serve as a pretext. And I mean, you know, Israel will always find a pretext to conduct additional bombings and so on. But I think the key point to understand here now is that decisions about the future of this agreement, decisions about a partial or full scale resumption of hostilities, are decisions that are not going to be made by Israel. They are decisions that are going to be made by the United States. If you see Israel bombing Palestinians, it killed six today. If you see it gradually once again escalating its aggression against the Gaza Strip, that means it has at least the passive acquiescence of Washington, if not its open support. If Washington, for any reason, feels the guns need to entirely fall silent, they will, regardless of what the Israeli government will or its coalition partners think about the matter.

[Sam Seder]

Can you tell us anything about the hostage exchange, prisoner exchange? The hundreds have been released from Israeli prisons, people who were detained without conviction, without any real charges. The hostages, essentially, but some remain in Israeli prisons, the most prominent of whom Marwan Barghouti. Is there anything you can tell us.

[Mohan Rabini]

About.

[Sam Seder]

Hamas's efforts to secure the release of specific Palestinians in Israeli jails?

[Mohan Rabini]

Well, I think the captive exchange is quite clearly a failure for Hamas. If you recall, in October 2023 and for a long period after that, Hamas made clear that the only exchange of captives it would accept was a release of all those that it held in exchange for all those In Israeli prisons. 2000 have been released. So the vast majority of Palestinians that are held captive by Israel remain in its prison system. So we have to be clear about that.

[Sam Seder]

Do we know how large that that number is?

[Mohan Rabini]

About 10, 8 to 10,000, if I'm not mistaken. And about 2,000 have now been released. 1700 of those are Palestinians who were kidnapped from the Gaza Strip after October 2023 and who are being held without charge or trial and were being held specifically in order to. In order to increase Israel's leverage in a captive exchange. So these were also hostages. They included a young boy with autism, you know, many women and children and so on. And then 250 of those were supposed to be Palestinians who were serving life sentences. Now, my understanding is only 195have been released, but I don't have specific numbers that a number of them are Palestinians who were released in previous captive exchanges but then rearrested. So those don't really belong in that category either. And the number of them were supposed to be released back to their homes in the west bank, and at the last minute, Israel deported them to Egypt. There were two key figures that I think Hamas was very keen to include in this exchange. The first is a Fatah leader, Marwan Barghouti, who's been in prison since 2002. And he was crucial because he's not Hamas, he's a Fatah leader. And that way Hamas would be able to demonstrate that it was acting in the national interest, if you will, rather than in its narrow factional interest. More importantly, he's seen as potentially the most effective challenger to the continued rule of Mahmoud Abbas and is considered his natural successor. And he's also someone who was keen to see Hamas integrated into the Palestinian national movement. And it's precisely for these reasons that Israel was determined to keep him in prison, preferably until he dies in prison. And that's also the reason, I think, that the Palestinian leadership, Ramallah, Mahmoud Abbas, which has in the past been credibly accused of lobbying the Israelis and the Americans not to release Baru War, were this time probably also sending secret messages to Washington and to Israel not to accept his release. The other is Ahmed Saadat, the leader of the Popular Front for Liberation of Palestine. And in his case, it's a question of pure revenge because the PFLP, and I believe it was in 2002, has carried out the only successful assassination of an Israeli cabinet minister, Rehabam Zevi, far right Minister of Tourism at the time. And that was a reprisal for Israel's assassination of Saadat's predecessor as head of the pflp.

[Emma Vigland]

The threat of a unified Palestinian national movement is ever present for Israel, and Barghouti in particular is a figure that could be that unifying force. I mean, it's. They do it by land segmenting the west bank and Gaza. And of course, fragmentation, fragmentation. This is a colonial power 101 should.

[Sam Seder]

Just add that he polls as the most popular figure amongst Palestinians.

[Emma Vigland]

Right. And one more question on my end, Moin. This yellow line piece of what I'm seeing in terms of Palestinians in the Gaza Strip, basically saying that half of their land they are unable to return to because the territory is basically blocked off by Israel, despite them saying they're, you know, removing the IDF from the Gaza Strip. There have already been reports that people who have crossed the yellow line have been killed by Israel. I haven't confirmed that yet, but this could be another way to cram Palestinians into a smaller territory within the Gaza structure, Strip itself. What are you hearing about those actions on the ground?

[Mohan Rabini]

Correct. And that was in fact a major concession that Hamas made in the context of this agreement, that it did not insist on a full withdrawal of Israeli forces from the Gaza Strip within a defined timetable. So we had the first withdrawal to this yellow line. Then I believe after the remains of the last remaining Israeli hostages in the Gaza Strip are returned to Israel, then they will conduct a second and further withdrawal. But that I think is going to take a very long time because also today the Red Cross is saying it's going to be extremely difficult to locate, identify and retrieve those remains from what is essentially pulverized rubble that Gaza has been transformed into during Israel's genocidal military campaign of the past two years.

[Sam Seder]

Before we let you go, I know. And out here, is there anything else you think that is important for us to note at this juncture?

[Mohan Rabini]

Yes, I think it's crucial to understand that this cessation of hostilities is of course, extraordinarily welcome, even if it turns out to be just temporary. At least, you know, people who were facing constant bombing, genocide, famine and so on have at least gotten a stay of execution. And we should do everything within our power during this pause to ensure that it's prolonged. And not just a pause. But the second point is we what we have been discussing today is a ceasefire proposal, not a peace plan. And unless there is a concerted effort to address and resolve the underlying root causes of this crisis, first and foremost the Palestinian right to self determination, then we are counting down to the eruption of the next catastrophic crisis. It will be inevitable. Whether it comes tomorrow, next year, or in a decade or two, it will be inevitable.

[Sam Seder]

Mohan Rabbani, thank you so much for your time today. Much appreciated and hope to speak to you again relatively soon. And hopefully things will have progressed and stayed on track on some level.

[Mohan Rabini]

I hope so. It's a pleasure being with you and thank you for the invitation.

[Emma Vigland]

Thanks so much.

[Sam Seder]

All right, folks, we're going to have a quick break and when we come back, we're going to be talking to Jacob Silverman, journalist, author of Gilded Rage, Elon Musk and the Radicalization of Silicon Valley, and also now host of his own podcast companion, the Making of Musk on the CBC series Understood and of course a a a former writer of the AM Quickie.

[Emma Vigland]

We don't get only the best.

[Sam Seder]

Only the best. We'll be right back.

[Jacob Silverman]

It.

[Sam Seder]

We are back. Sam Cedar, Emma Vigland on the Majority Report. It is always a pleasure to welcome back to the program Jacob Silverman, journalist, author of his latest Gilded Rage, Elon Musk and the Radicalization of Silicon Valley, and now also a podcast host of the Making of Musk, which is part of the Understood series, the cbc. Jacob, welcome back to the program.

[Jacob Silverman]

Always a pleasure. Thanks for having me.

[Sam Seder]

Listen to the quality of that audio.

[Emma Vigland]

I know.

[Sam Seder]

Really you could tell you're doing a podcast for the Canadians because they don't.

[Jacob Silverman]

They even gave me one of those pop shields that you might see a little bit in the frame here.

[Emma Vigland]

I know it's very fancy.

[Sam Seder]

It's very fancy and it sounds great. All right, well, let's, I mean, let's start in with Elon Musk. He's been quite a figure. I don't even know if he was like, how much has happened to Musk as you started to write this book?

[Jacob Silverman]

Yeah, I was also keeping sort of a list of things that might happen between the submitting of the book and the publication. Unfortunately, we haven't had too much there. But I started writing the book when Musk was having his public breakdown over the Woke Mind virus, you might say.

[Sam Seder]

And was which one was of the public breakdowns over the Woke Mind virus?

[Matt]

Was this before or after he called the guy with the submarine a Susan?

[Jacob Silverman]

This was, I believe, after that. But, you know, he was becoming. Airing these cultural grievances and, and, but wasn't quite yet really devoting himself to politics in a public way. I mean, he had, he had set up until Trump's the attempted assassination butler that he wasn't going to endorse anybody, but you could kind of see where things were going. And this was someone who was, you know, cooking his own brain on Twitter along with a lot of other Silicon Valley elites. And so that's when I really started following it and working on in book form and also writing about David Sacks, too, was, was another way in there for me.

[Sam Seder]

I want to ask you about that. He came out and endorsed Trump after that assassination attempt. But it was also, if I remember correctly, either days before he, Trump, had announced Vance, or just days after. And I wonder my theory at that time, and I wonder what you think about this, because it ties in with the community that Musk is coming from. Is that really Musk was intending to endorse Trump because it was clear Vance was going to be the vp and Vance was the pick of Peter Thiel. And I wonder also Musk, like, if that community got the message. Vance indicates that the door is going to open for Sachs, the door is going to open for crypto. The door is going to open for all of our tech. Curtis Yarvinism.

[Jacob Silverman]

Yeah, I think it would have come at any point that summer, but the attempted assassination was this big, theatrical, highly chronicled moment that I don't know, appealed to the sense of drama in some of these guys, in the sense that also that they were somehow under siege alongside of Trump. I mean, I quote in the book Sean McGuire, this very right wing VC and very public about his right wing conversion, who works at Sequoia, very important firm in the Valley. And he tweeted at least 50 times that day and was very excited and galvanized by this assassination attempts. So the groundwork was being laid before with dinners that were being hosted by Sachs and other people, where Musk, I believe, attended some of them. And Vance was the guy that they wanted, which at one of these dinners that Trump was at at Sachs's mansion in San Francisco, basically everyone assembled there said, you should pick Vance. Unfortunately, Doug Burgum was also in attendance, but no one really mentioned his name.

[Sam Seder]

Did people even recognize that he was there?

[Jacob Silverman]

I wouldn't say so, but who knows?

[Emma Vigland]

The Bergamentum must have not been strong that day.

[Sam Seder]

Let's talk about how that cadre of people shifted in terms of their politics. I know that's like, you know, the beginning of your book, essentially. Is that shift. What. What was that shift a function of? And was it actually real or was it just sort of more like we feel more comfortable, you know, loosening our ties, essentially?

[Jacob Silverman]

That's a good way to put it. I mean, there are a few categories, I'd say, and some of that we see playing out right now with, you know, there are people who seem more opportunistic, like Tim Cook at Apple perhaps, or leaders of Alphabet or Microsoft who worry about antitrust issues, or Zuckerberg himself, I mean, is in his sort of like mini manosphere phase. But I think also someone like him, like Trump, has threatened to put him in jail, which is ridiculous, but also not because this is Trump. So, you know, there is the crew that was sort of operating, I think I was, self preservation opportunism, the allure of government contracts, which is so huge and actually really fundamental, I think, towards this reorientation that, you know, government is no longer something to be suspicious of or much less to see as an adversary in any way. But this is where you're going to make a lot of money. But there were, especially during 2020 and during that summer that so many people went mad, the beginnings, I think, of a lot of cultural shifts in politics and social life that affected people, affected billionaires just as much as they affected everyday people, but sometimes in different ways. So there was Anger about COVID shutdowns and quarantine measures and inability to run, say, the Tesla factory in Fremont, California. There was Black Lives Matter and MeToo movements. And then more recently the social justice, excuse me, more recently the Gaza solidarity movements and protests over these companies, work with Israeli government and all these kinds of social and political movements really struck these people as intolerable as things that they would not accept. And I think for different people, those were important kind of catalysts or mile markers on the road to radicalization.

[Sam Seder]

How much for Musk when he bought, like, what was his agenda when he bought Twitter? Was it just simply a function that he was, you know, upset about the Woke Mind virus and upset about his trans daughter and how much of that, or was it did he actually think that he was going to. Because it feels like he's not talking about this anymore. But he was going to make a sort of one stop, you know, pay service and social media and, you know, whatever X was going to be because it covers everything.

[Emma Vigland]

There was video streaming. They were trying with Tucker. Oh, go on, Jacob. Okay, we lost your audio. Hold on, let's see if we need.

[Matt]

To, we can cut to a break.

[Emma Vigland]

That fancy mic setup. Yeah, we'll be right, we'll be right back. We'll cut to a break.

[Sam Seder]

We're going to cut to a break and we'll get right back. Sorry, we are back now and we were just talking about what was Elon Musk's actual agenda when he purchased Twitter? Because for me it felt like he was actually had these aspirations and thought that he could sort of create a all in one destination for payments and social media and video. And when that became apparent that he couldn't do that, he sort of pivoted to like, well, I really just did it because I wanted to make sure that, well, Donald Trump won the election or the Woke Mind virus was snuffed out and comedy was going to be legal again or something like that?

[Jacob Silverman]

Well, I think he did have some of those everything app aspirations and people have talked about how he wanted to make one of these Chinese super apps like WeChat or one of these other ones where you can conduct your whole life through it. But it's kind of hard to do that when you take over a company and then gut 70% of the workforce. How do you build it into something bigger? They've still, I believe, applied for or received some money transmitter licenses. So especially with this, the stablecoin bill passing, I think you could see X integrating more payments in some form or another. Because every app is going to want to become like a stablecoin payments app. But yeah, and I think also the factor that it was a website or platform that he was personally obsessed with, I think that mattered a lot. It's been very important for cultivating, well, his cult of personality, the Tesla kind of shareholder phenomenon of this incredibly overvalued stock. And then it does seem like the politics kind of came later or an add on. I mean, but ultimately, I also think that as we ramped up towards the election, and you could see this in some of the studies that came out about what was going on perhaps with the X algorithm, and they were certainly promoting conservative accounts in addition to Musk himself. So it became that tool towards promoting Trump maybe a little bit later, that was kind of bolted on as a sense of purpose, but it did end up getting there.

[Emma Vigland]

Well, since you brought up the algorithms and the promoting of these right wing accounts, I'm curious about your take on Silicon Valley and these apps promoting very inflammatory, racialized and urban crime content in particular, because when you look at Peter Thiel and you see what you read, Gil Duran as well, like what these guys think about when they think about urban spaces, they want them to be privatized and they want them to be clean and safe. Safe, according to them. And they achieved that through mass surveillance, which is obviously the business of many of these Silicon Valley billionaires. So it was interesting that Instagram also deprioritized political content during the election or made it more difficult to access and then brought it back afterwards. It felt like more than ever these guys were putting their thumbs on the scales in ways that further a right wing project.

[Jacob Silverman]

Yeah, I would say so. I mean, these are polarizing platforms and we know that their, their fingers are on the dials. And in the case of Musk, you know, sometimes he's very close to the coders who are tinkering with this stuff and, you know, almost literally yelling at them to adjust the dials so that more of his content is shown. And in that way also, Musk became one of, like the tastemakers of the 2024 media cycle, where these out of context or misleadingly edited or just overwrought videos of someone having a psychotic break or someone being homeless and doing drugs in public became viral fodder for conservative media everywhere. I mean, this was like a daily or constant thing that came to represent the failures of San Francisco, of Democratic governance, of liberals. And Musk was a big part of that through the website he bought and through his own kind of consumption. I think in the last couple years, at least before the last election, he replaced for a little while Trump as kind of the center of the news cycle in a lot of ways. When every tweet of his became a thousand articles, immediately.

[Sam Seder]

I want to get to sort of where we are in crypto because it.

[Mohan Rabini]

Is.

[Sam Seder]

Seems highly problematic where we are in terms of crypto. But before we get there, what was Doge about? I mean, was this like, we don't really know what Elon Musk walked away with in terms of our data, right? With that seems to be an open question, but what was Doge about? Because he was sort of like, I'm trying to use a phraseology that's not obscene. He was blocking Russell Vote in terms of like Russell votes attempt to cut government down and debilitate the government. And it was almost like Russell Vote had to put his, his plan into effect like six months later than he had planned because Doge was getting in the way and doing it in a very ham fisted or inefficient way. They were trying to impose supposedly efficient, like, what was Doge actually supposed to be?

[Jacob Silverman]

I mean, that may also be a reflection of the fact that these tech guys think that, well one, they know everything and they are first every idea and that they are not really fit to cooperate with others or be dictated to by someone like Russell Vogt who, who comes from a different world. But I think the data grab is actually hugely important. You know, I think there needs to be more reporting on this, but I've spoken to some Capitol Hill staffers who think that, you know, the amount of data, a very sensitive personal data on Americans, of course, like the entire Social Security system pretty much, and market data and anything else has flowed out of US government systems and into xai. And I didn't really mention this before, but that is also something that X or Twitter became important for, for Musk as just a feeder of real time data into xai. And this is an enormous competitive advantage. I think Musk himself did have these aspirations of, you know, taking a scout or taking a hatchet to the government and hollowing it out and somehow efficiencies would bloom, but also enormous opportunities for automation, AI systems that he can sell to the government. He already does have some contracts that he's managed to seal in the last few months through XAI and undercutting the prices of some of these other AI companies. But ideologically or actually programmatically, how he thought he was going to get this done, it was clearly not well. Planned. But if you look at it kind of as a smash and grab for this data, it certainly worked that way. And the last thing I would say is that over the summer, Joe Lonsdale, very prominent venture capitalist and part of this network that we're talking about, said most of our DOGE people are still in place. A lot of these people who are allied with the right wing tech leads we're talking about or are direct kind of must disciples are still in various positions across the federal government, not doing, we don't always know what.

[Emma Vigland]

Oh, well, that's not that comforting.

[Sam Seder]

It's not that comforting. I mean, it's sort of. Sometimes it's like too hard to wrap one's head around that. So much of the complete chaos and destruction that our government was thrown into that are. The destruction that has taken place is just a function of, Of a dude with just like, way too much self esteem.

[Jacob Silverman]

Yeah, a very, a very thin layer of it in a way, because we can see how insecure he is at times. But I mean, he said, and this is something we mentioned the podcast that I did, which is that basically any organization he enters, he has to be in charge of, which is not a surprising characteristic. But this also shows why he's just kind of, in his brief time as a special government employee, came in, like, with this whirlwind and wreaked all this destruction, a lot of which had to be immediately undone by bringing people back just for practical reasons. But it is remarkable how much of this is because one person wanted it that way.

[Sam Seder]

Let's talk about where he. He had a brief falling out with Trump, claimed he was going to get out of politics. That seemed to be a function of, of real discontent at Tesla with both shareholders and the board of directors, that he was splitting his focus, you know, doing too much pretending on behalf of the government and not enough pretending on behalf of Tesla. And. But subsequent to that, there seemed to have been. It seems like he patched things up and that I've seen conflicting reports as to how much money he's going to spend in the midterm elections. Do you have a sense of, like, where he is in terms of his resources? Because when he failed in Wisconsin, it seems to me it was, it was written on the wall. I mean, there were two things that are happening. He failed on a political matter for the administration. And so all of a sudden they realize, like, he's toxic. If he actually shows up, his money's okay, but if he shows up and people are labeled as taking Musk Money, he's toxic politically. And then the Tesla sort of like uprising was happening at that time. They were, you know, supposedly shopping around for a new CEO, and so he has to leave. But where, where is he now in terms of what he's intending to do in the midterms?

[Jacob Silverman]

Well, I don't think we're going to see the America Party that he was talking about a few months ago. I mean, he has obviously very little follow through when it comes to politics and. But that's almost why the midterm cycle might suit him to just parachute in, you know, drop 100 or $200 million on some candidates he likes and then hopefully for everyone's sake, leave. But the problem becomes if he wants to actually, like, show up on stage with Thomas Massie or something like that, or maybe not a problem for the rest of us, but I think he'll still be involved and still be throwing around money, but in the way that he chooses, which is not necessarily, you know, direct, always in line with the Republican Party's priorities. And I mean, one other thing I think is worth noting, the Tesla board is like one of the most pliant sycophantic boards around, I would guess. And the fact that, like, they actually made him nervous and kind of had to reel him in is very significant and I think where a lot of Musk's attentions should probably lie in the next couple years. I mean, Tesla sales are plummeting worldwide, China is making better cars that are cheaper and everyone hates him. So, you know, he did this one. They gave him this, another offer of, oh, if you reach these insane milestones, you'll get a trillion dollars. He did this $1 billion share buyback, which juice the stock price, that makes shareholders and the board a little happier. And it kind of shows that he's willing to be more involved with the company. So I think he's not always someone who operates logically or towards his own best interest. But if he were, in this case, I think he would just put some money into the midterms and then try to keep his head down and work on Tesla, but he probably won't follow that path.

[Sam Seder]

Let's talk a little bit about crypto. How past the Rubicon are we? I mean, I, and I don't, I haven't followed up on, but at one point there was talk of allowing crypto to be collateral for mortgages.

[Jacob Silverman]

Yeah.

[Sam Seder]

Which seems really, really dangerous based upon the volatility of crypto. Like, I, you know, I always, like, see crypto valuations out of the periphery and read like, oh, somebody showed up today and shorted several billion dollars worth of crypto for like a three weeks out. And it sort of feels like there's just constant manipulation in the, the most stable of crypto markets. And that's the most stable. Like, where are we at right now? Like, how can we ever, can we have and address whether we can ever actually go back? I mean, I have no problem with people, you know, trading crypto in the same way I have no problem with people trading tulips. But I don't want something that is so volatile to be so closely associated and integral to our regular financial system.

[Jacob Silverman]

And that's really the problem, which is that the consumer interest, or retail interest as they call it in crypto is not really there anymore. It's not what it was in summer of 2022 when things were kind of peaking but also falling apart. Sam Bankman Fried got arrested in December of 2022 and FTX fell apart in November. And since then there was this brief sort of crypto winter. Then a lot of money started coming back into the system, somewhat surprisingly. And now they look towards government and institutional money, the industry does, for their sources of cash and to pump the values of their tokens. And the problem now is with all the legislation that's been passed. Thank you, Kirsten Gillibrand. And all these various regulations that have been dismantled and investigatory units at the sec, FBI, DOJ elsewhere related to crypto crime that have been dismantled, we are just being forced to play by crypto's rules. And they are being given more and more access to mainstream financial system and to mainstream financial products. So you have all these, what are called bitcoin treasury companies. This is like microstrategy. But there are a bunch of others now that are just buying bitcoin or some of them are buying other crypto, like some are buying millions of dollars worth of Trump coin and then they're doing the SPAC thing and merging. So they're suddenly a publicly traded company that only holds Bitcoin or only holds Solana or something like that. And then your retirement account decides, okay, we're going to invest in microstrategy. And suddenly you're exposed to all this stuff. And I mean, it's sort of being daisy chained throughout the financial system where there are all these ways in which people are going to be exposed to crypto and to a potential crash in crypto, which we know is coming whether they like it or not. And there's no underlying productive economic activity here. And then the second part is, I mean, this is the most financially corrupt presidency we've ever seen. And crypto is the vehicle and the mechanism and what makes it all possible. And we're so far beyond any accountability for that. And that is so tied in with that new sort of regulatory landscape I was just talking about that we're in big trouble.

[Emma Vigland]

Well, the one like bit of hope, I guess, that maybe I can provide to the conversation is that Dave Weigel and Semaphore had an article that came out this or yesterday, I believe, speaking about how data centers raising people's electric electricity prices so intensely is becoming a bit of a political kind of issue in some of these races, including in Virginia, and the energy intensiveness of it and say the federal government's complete lack of desire and inability to rein it in. At this point, given the genius act and given who we've staffed and who's in the administration, there's a potential here that didn't exist before, I would say, to make this a populist issue on the ballot. And you can even tie in climate into that in ways that we hadn't previously.

[Jacob Silverman]

Yeah, I think that's a very good point. That with something like crypto or AI, people may not understand it for understandable reasons or they may find the subject kind of mystifying. But when you talk about electricity bills going up 200% and it's because they're building this data center near you that doesn't really provide any tangible benefits to anyone's life, which is also a good way to talk about this stuff, I think then it's more meaningful. I think it can be politically galvanizing. And you hear some senators starting to talk about that now too, that people aren't happy at the resource consumption and the people pushing it, like Sam Altman, because what are we really getting back in return?

[Sam Seder]

Jacob Silverman, the book is Gilded Elon Musk and the Radicalization of Silicon Valley and the companion podcast, the Making of Mustard Musk, part of the CBC Understood series. We will put links to both those. Happily for you, sadly for the rest of us, this stuff is going to be very, very relevant in terms of defining the near and midterm and perhaps long term future of this country, our economy. And so really an exceptional favor to us all for the work you've done on this. Really appreciate it.

[Jacob Silverman]

I appreciate you all. Thank you.

[Emma Vigland]

Thanks, Jacob.

[Sam Seder]

All right, folks, we're going to take a break, head into the fun half of the program. Just a reminder, it's your support that makes this show possible. You can become a [e-mail] when you do, you not only get the free show free of commercials, but you also get the fun half and you allow this show to survive and thrive and train. You know Matt on a 16 camera multi channel telestream.

[Matt]

Well I got trained on that last night.

[Sam Seder]

Yeah, that's looks like a grand piano's length of a soundboard. It was crazy when I walked into that room and saw you guys in there. I was like, oh, there was joysticks.

[Emma Vigland]

Yeah, looks like it looked kind of like a church organ to your point.

[Matt]

Yeah, it was like an old count playing a giant.

[Sam Seder]

Also, don't forget, just coffee, co op, fair trade coffee, hot chocolate. Use the coupon code majority. You get 10% off. And check out our AM Quickie. AM quickie.com get emails in your email box three times a week for free. 5 if you want to pay a couple of dollars of the biggest news stories. Jacob A. An alum of the AM quickie. Also check out our discord majoritydiscord.com you never know what future senate candidate or congressional candidate or comptroller candidate will will be in that Discord majority. Discord.com Matt left Reckoning speaking of future senate or speaking of senate candidates.

[Matt]

Yeah. Tonight, left Reckoning we have a candidate for Congress, Hartzell Gray in Missouri who is running against Alford, I believe in a district out there. Also Alex Skopik of Current affairs talking about his piece about Javier Millay and the rush to crown him a genius policy guy that lasted about four months.

[Sam Seder]

Yeah, the picture they chose for that Current affairs chose for that article is so funny.

[Matt]

Very funny. So yeah, that's all tonight at 7:00 Eastern Time. Thank you to the 50,000 strong subscribers on YouTube and growing Twitch.

[Sam Seder]

Basically charge. Yes. And also always you can watch us on Twitch as well.

[Emma Vigland]

Poggers and Rumble.

[Sam Seder]

And Rumble. What is the Rumble? What does Rumble have any get ready.

[Emma Vigland]

Let's get ready.

[Sam Seder]

Yeah, they just rip off. We've got 10 right now. I know we have 10, 10 viewers which is probably like a 25 increase in where we generally are 30 maxing out. But is there like, you know, it's all the most iron which has hype, trains and poggers. But rumble. What, what do they have? Just, they just sell say like racial.

[Matt]

Epithets or there's a, there's like a, there's a small sect of like iron ironic posters on Rumble with names like Pandemic Anxiety and I feel like the person chatting now is. What is it?

[Emma Vigland]

Future reactionary pandemic anxiety is a. Is a. Is an immer. Who. Who I think does us a solid by watching us on Rumble.

[Mohan Rabini]

Yeah, exactly.

[Matt]

Them and the other 12 people so appreciate 12.

[Sam Seder]

We just added another 20%. That's about.

[Matt]

Yeah, 50% higher than we usually are.

[Jacob Silverman]

I'll say.

[Sam Seder]

The ad right now that's being shown says Liberals laughed at RFK Jr's Covid warning until this happened.

[Emma Vigland]

Can you click on it? Okay, I don't want to get guaranteed a virus.

[Matt]

Let's give the main broadcast computer a Rumble virus.

[Emma Vigland]

Curiosity killed the computer.

[Sam Seder]

Dark soul says you guys could go on Kick and be one of the streams that aren't snuff. Okay.

[Matt]

Kick's even worse than Rumble, which is insane. Like, you just, like, have to be a rancid Nazi to be on that side.

[Sam Seder]

All right, folks, see you in the fun half. Three months from now, six months from now, nine months from now. And I don't think it's going to be the same as it looks like in six months from now. And I don't know if it's necessarily going to be better six months from now than it is three months from now, but I think around 18 months out, we're going to look back and go like, wow. What? What is that going on? It's nuts.

[Mohan Rabini]

Wait a second.

[Sam Seder]

Hold on. Hold on for a second. Emma, welcome to the program.

[Emma Vigland]

Over a Fun half.

[Jacob Silverman]

Matt.

[Mohan Rabini]

Fun.

[Sam Seder]

What is up, everyone? Fun half. No, me.

[Mohan Rabini]

You did it.

[Sam Seder]

Fun half.

[Emma Vigland]

Let's go, Brandon.

[Jacob Silverman]

Let's go, Brandon.

[Sam Seder]

Fun path. Bradley, you want to say hello?

[Jacob Silverman]

Sorry to disappoint everyone.

[Sam Seder]

I'm just a random guy. It's all the boys today.

[Emma Vigland]

Fundamentally false. No, I'm sorry.

[Sam Seder]

Women talking for a second and let me finish.

[Emma Vigland]

Where is this coming from, dude?

[Sam Seder]

But, dude, you Want to smoke this? 7A.

[Jacob Silverman]

Yes.

[Sam Seder]

Yes. Is this me? Is it me? It is you. Is this me?

[Jacob Silverman]

Hello?

[Sam Seder]

Is this me? I think it is you. Who is you? No sound. Every single freaking day. What's on your mind?

[Emma Vigland]

Sports.

[Mohan Rabini]

We can discuss free markets and we can discuss capitalism.

[Sam Seder]

I'm gonna go smart. Libertarians.

[Mohan Rabini]

They're so stupid.

[Matt]

Though.

[Sam Seder]

Common sense says, of course.

[Emma Vigland]

Gobbledygook.

[Sam Seder]

We nailed him.

[Emma Vigland]

So what's 79 plus 21?

[Sam Seder]

Challenge.

[Mohan Rabini]

Man, I'm positively quivering.

[Sam Seder]

I believe 96. I want to say 8, 5, 7, 2, 1 0, 35, 501, 1 half. 3, 8, 9, 11.

[Emma Vigland]

For instance, $3,400. $1,900.

[Sam Seder]

$543 trillion sold. It's a zero sum game, actually.

[Emma Vigland]

You're making me think less.

[Sam Seder]

But, but let me say this. You call it satire, Sam goes satire.

[Mohan Rabini]

On top of it all.

[Sam Seder]

My favorite part about you is just.

[Emma Vigland]

Like every day, all day, like everything you do, I.

[Sam Seder]

Without a doubt. Hey, buddy, we see you. All right, folks, folks, folks.

[Emma Vigland]

It's just the week being weeded out, obviously.

[Jacob Silverman]

Yeah.

[Sam Seder]

Sun's out, guns out. I, I, I don't know.

[Emma Vigland]

But you should know.

[Mohan Rabini]

People just don't.

[Matt]

Like to entertain ideas anymore.

[Sam Seder]

I have a question. Who cares?

[Matt]

Ouchet is enabled, folks.

[Sam Seder]

I love it.

[Emma Vigland]

I do love that.

[Sam Seder]

Gotta jump. Gotta be quick. I gotta jump.

[Mohan Rabini]

I'm losing it, bro.

[Sam Seder]

Two o', clock, we're already late and the guy's being a dick. So screw him. Sent to a gulag.

[Emma Vigland]

Outrageous.

[Sam Seder]

Like, what is wrong with you?

[Jacob Silverman]

Love you. Bye.

[Sam Seder]

Love you. Bye. Bye.