3605 - Trump Readies Ground Invasion of Iran; To Tax Cut or Not to Tax Cut w/ Perry Bacon, Sen Chris Van Hollen

Summary

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The Majority Report with Sam Seder

Episode 3605 | March 20, 2026
Trump Readies Ground Invasion of Iran; To Tax Cut or Not to Tax Cut
Guests: Perry Bacon Jr. (The New Republic), Sen. Chris Van Hollen (D-MD)

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Episode Overview

This episode centers on two major themes:

• The rapidly escalating U.S. war with Iran under President Trump, focusing on the plans to invade Kharg Island and the political, economic, and international ramifications.
• A deep dive into progressive tax policy and the Democratic response to the affordability crisis, including debate over Senator Chris Van Hollen’s new tax proposal.

Sam is joined by Perry Bacon Jr. for a comprehensive discussion of political alignment, Democratic strategy, and the ongoing war, followed by an interview with Senator Chris Van Hollen about his tax plan and the Iran conflict.

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War with Iran: Escalation, Politics, and Public Opinion

Setting the Stage (06:40–16:07)

• Context: U.S. is prepping a ground invasion of Kharg Island (Iran’s main oil export facility). Trump and the Pentagon seek $200 billion for war, with new troops and ships deploying.

• Economic Fallout: Oil surges above $100/barrel; sanctions on Iranian oil partially lifted to ease global oil prices.

  • Sam notes the contradiction: “If you destroy Kharg island... you are destroying a huge capacity of Iran to generate revenue to support itself. And while that might be helpful if you are fighting a war... it's not going to be helpful if you win a war against them.” (08:26)

• Trump’s Rhetoric: Plays a clip of Trump boasting about striking Iranian leadership, referring to invasion as an “excursion.” (10:20)

  “We can take out the island anytime we want... I call it the little oil island... I had to take this little excursion and do something that no other president had the courage to.”
  — Donald Trump (10:20)

• Republican Messaging: J.D. Vance attempts to justify high gas prices, blames “green energy scams,” and claims the U.S. energy agenda puts Americans in a better position than Europe (11:41–14:57).

  • Sam lampoons the emptiness and repetition of the “plan coming soon” rhetoric, comparing it to Trump’s style.

Perry Bacon Jr. on the War: Public Opinion and Elite Dynamics (23:37–29:48)

• Historical Comparison: Perry and Sam contrast the swift public dissent to the Iran war with the slow souring of public opinion during Iraq. Perry observes:

  “This is the first war... where from the beginning the American public was clearly opposed. Trump has been talking about invading Iran... the majority of people opposed it, only about 25% for it.”
  — Perry Bacon Jr. (25:54)

• Republican Strategy: Loyalty to Trump is now about surviving primary threats, not winning general elections. The party leadership, unlike in Bush/Delay era, no longer acts as a brake on unpopular decisions if breaking with Trump threatens their own power (29:48).

Democratic (Non)Response and the Funding Question (29:48–35:38)

• Democratic Ambiguity: Sam and Perry critique Democratic congressional leaders for procedural, not substantive, opposition:

  “They are not where the party is on Israel. That said, now that we're here, pretty much all Democrats have been criticizing this pretty sharply... Will [they] refuse to fund this war? Is the core test.”
  — Perry Bacon Jr. (31:40)

• Political Leverage: Perry asserts that Democrats’ real test is whether they’ll block Trump’s $200 billion war funding request. He notes how “being afraid to seem like the peacenik party” still haunts Democratic strategy (32:26).

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Progressive vs. Establishment Dynamics in Democratic Primaries

(36:45–52:17)

• Primary Battles: Perry recaps recent Democratic primaries in Illinois and elsewhere, describing intense fights between Justice Democrat-style progressives and corporatist, AIPAC/crypto-funded moderates.

  • “We're one cycle away from AIPAC-backed candidates coming out against Israel.” (39:05; quoting a sharp Twitter observation)

• Money & Messaging: Moderates often run left on rhetoric, right on policy, aided by outsized funding for misleading ads. Progressives face the challenge of both distinguishing themselves ideologically and exposing their opponents’ donor-driven duplicity (39:19).

• Candidate Consolidation Challenges: The left vote is sometimes split among multiple progressives, which hands victory to establishment-backed candidates; the benefits of ranked choice voting are highlighted.

• Notable Quotes:

  “The rhetoric change is better than nothing, I would say.”
  — Perry Bacon Jr. on AIPAC influence (40:01)

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Interview: Senator Chris Van Hollen—Tax Policy & The Iran War

Van Hollen’s Tax Proposal Explained (54:59–64:50)

• The Plan: Raises the federal tax exemption for wage earners up to ~$46,000, funded by a surtax on incomes above $1 million.

  • “If you're simply making enough income to meet your basic cost of living expenses, then you should be able to keep more of that income... If you're making a living wage, you should be able to live off that wage and not be subject to federal income tax.”
    — Sen. Chris Van Hollen (55:39)

• Defending the Approach:

  • Sen. Van Hollen rebuffs the critique that this frames government as the source of hardship, not the solution: “We are facing an affordability crisis... But the other side of the coin is how much income you have to meet your needs and pay your bills.” (58:49)
  • The plan is not exclusive of other progressive programs, endorses the Sanders wealth tax, child care expansion, etc.

• Counterpoint:

  “We're all citizens and if our government is providing us benefits... let's get more services.”
  — Sam Seder (62:46)

  • Van Hollen responds that Americans already pay substantial state/local taxes and federal payroll taxes, making U.S. taxation patterns distinct from Europe.

Iran War Funding & Democratic Responsibility (64:50–75:30)

• Van Hollen’s Stance:

  • “I will not vote for additional funds for this very stupid war.” (67:40)
  • The leverage point for Congress, given abdicated Republican responsibility, is to cut off funding. Cites the end of the Vietnam War as precedent.

• On Democratic Leadership:

  • Concerned Democrats aren’t coalescing quickly enough in opposition:

    “We're going to be working to make sure that we build Democratic unity against funding this war... We should not be prolonging this war. Paying more money for the war is just another way of keeping it going.”
    — Sen. Chris Van Hollen (71:19)

• Leadership Dissent & the ‘Fight Club’:

  • Van Hollen confirms the existence of a group of senators (the “Fight Club”) motivated to challenge Schumer-aligned establishment candidates and push back on DSCC attempts to tip the scales in primaries.
  • “This is not a business as usual moment.” (74:21)

Lessons from Democratic Failures and the Biden Era (75:30–79:44)

• On Gaza and Israel:

  • Van Hollen singles out the Biden/Harris administration’s “blank check” for Netanyahu as a moral, strategic, and political failure.

• On Economic Policy:

  • Critiques an economy and tax code that “rewards people who make money off of money and penalizes people who are working hard for paycheck every day.”
  • Calls for a wealth tax to combat “an American aristocracy... that is going to destroy our democracy.”

• On Democratic Courage:

  “If we've all learned a lesson, it should be that the finger in the wind, calculating politics is weak. It's absolutely weak... what people, I do think, appreciate is when people take a stand and stand on principle.”
  — Sen. Chris Van Hollen (80:10)

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Additional Memorable Moments

• Trumpisms and Republican Rhetoric Satirized:
  • Sam jokes about the perpetual “two weeks” promise from Trump (15:19).
  • J.D. Vance seen as “treading water, hoping that a ship is going to come by and rescue him because he is watching his entire future go down the tubes.” (13:26)
• Deep Cuts on Progressive Organizing:
  • Sam and Perry discuss the need for left candidate consolidation in primaries to counter establishment candidates, referencing the New York model and upcoming Michigan contest.
• Perry Bacon’s Insight on Age & Political Renewal:
  • Voters, especially under 50, are increasingly frustrated with entrenched incumbency; youth and new faces gaining appeal. (50:03–51:20)

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Notable Quotes & Timestamps

• “He's like a cancer on our politics that is... never going away.”
  — Perry Bacon Jr. (24:02)
• “This war is illegal and we should stop doing it.”
  — Sam Seder, repeating progressive stance (34:31)
• “We are creating more and more an American aristocracy and that is going to destroy our democracy and our country.”
  — Sen. Chris Van Hollen (77:30)
• “Let the people who are working hard keep a little bit more of their money, and make those making $1 million+ pay more: it’s not complicated.”
  — Sen. Chris Van Hollen (56:20)

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Key Timestamps

• 06:40 — Breakdown of the Kharg Island plan and Iran war escalation
• 14:50 — J.D. Vance’s energy talking points; Sam’s critique of empty promises
• 23:37 — Perry Bacon Jr. on media, Trump, and the war
• 25:54 — Historic public opposition to the Iran war
• 36:45 — Democratic primaries, money, and message battles
• 40:01 — AIPAC influence and the shifting Overton window on Israel
• 54:59 — Sen. Van Hollen’s progressive tax plan overview
• 64:50 — Iran war as “disaster,” calls for funding cutoff
• 71:19 — The Democrats’ leadership test on war funding
• 74:21 — “Fight Club” group challenging establishment Dem leadership
• 75:30 — Failures of the Biden administration, especially Israel/Gaza and lack of fighting spirit

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Tone and Final Takeaways

With sharp, irreverent, and exasperated wit, Sam and guests dissect major political blunders, the Democratic Party’s internal struggles, and the policy crossroads facing the U.S. The episode blends historical perspective, inside-baseball primary insights, and urgent antiwar advocacy—all delivered with a sense of fatigue and dogged hope for a more principled and proactive left.

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Transcript

[Sam Seder]

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[Matt Leckie]

I spend so much time in it.

[Sam Seder]

It's because, and you understand, it's because billionaires are smarter than the rest of us. Reallocate capital. We were too stupid to know how good the Metaverse was. Heat records breaking in the southwest country now is breaking 77% more hot weather records than in the 1970s than any time since, frankly. FDA investigating seven E. Coli illnesses suspected to come from a raw milk farm. They deny it. Postmaster General claims the Postal service will be running out of money in 2027. All this and more on today's Majority Report. Welcome ladies and gentlemen. Emma Vigland out today. She is headed to the West Coast. She's going to be doing some shows out there. We will provide you with that info as as you need it.

[Perry Bacon Jr.]

You don't need it right now.

[Sam Seder]

You don't need it right now. They're not happening. I mean Sunday night, Sunday afternoon, she's going to be doing with Francesca, but that's already sold out. You are SOL on that one. Should have done it earlier. You can join the Patreon to see a live stream of it for Situation Room. Oh, you can? All right. Well then in that case, join the Patreon for the Bituation room and you will be able to check that out, we got a lot to get to. Carg island is a very small island, as Donald Trump will tell you, off the coast of Iran. It is the primary facility that Iran uses to export oil to the world. 2, 2, 2 notes I would make on that. One is, is that I have read from other experts who say it is a mistake to believe that in shutting down or capturing Carg island that you will prevent Iran from exporting oil. They have already, they have pipelines that go to Iraq and then ships that load there and sail from there. They have pipelines that are south of the of the Straits of Hormuz where they also ship oil and that they have other mechanisms that they've been using to sneak oil out of the country, in part because of the sanctions. This is obviously important because if you destroy Kharg island, however, you are destroying a huge capacity of Iran to generate revenue to support itself. And while that might be helpful if you are fighting a war against them, it's not going to be helpful if you win a war against them. And sort of counterintuitively, and because

[Senator Chris Van Hollen]

our

[Sam Seder]

government is panicking about the, the huge pile of crap they stepped in, they are allowing, they have lifted sanctions off of Iranian oil exports that are already on ships so that they can maintain the price of oil or at least create a downward pressure on it, even though now it's above $100 a barrel. People should be aware that every time a conservative ever said Biden or Obama in particular, gave Iran billions of dollars, that those monies were just frozen money in Iranian accounts that went back to Iran, and it was about maybe half the amount that is available to them now by lifting those sanctions on those oil exports, just so that, for the record, not that any of these things matter anymore because of the insanity that we go through, but here is Donald Trump explaining, you know, how he's sort of like, I don't know, should we have gold Lemay over there or gold Lemay over there, or should we invade Kharg Island?

[Donald Trump]

And as you know, their leadership is gone. Their leaders are gone. They picked new leaders. They're gone. They picked new leaders. They're gone. And now they're looking for new leaders again. We can take out the island anytime we want. I call it the little oil island that sits there so totally unprotected. We've taken out everything but the pipes. We left the pipes because to rebuild the pipes would take years for, you know, for them to do. But we are, I would say we are substantially ahead of schedule. And I Had to do this. I had. I call it an excursion. I had to take this little excursion and do something that no other president had the courage to.

[Sam Seder]

We're ahead of schedule. But be clear, there is no schedule. I mean, I think that's word for word what Pete Hagseth has said. But don't worry because. And J.D. vance is going to try and spin this as a positive. Here he is in Michigan yesterday. As screwed as we are, we've screwed over the rest of the world worse. So feel good about that.

[J.D. Vance]

We actually worked with a lot of our allies all over the world who are suffering from this, frankly, more than we are. Because unlike the United States, where we pursued an energy dominance agenda, you've got a lot of people all over the world who have focused on a lot of green energy scams and they're hurting a lot more than we are. So as much as we've got, we got to focus on getting these gas positive.

[Sam Seder]

One thing, all of those sort of like people in the back there who all just seem incredibly depressed because maybe they thought they were coming to see Trump.

[Senator Chris Van Hollen]

Yeah.

[Sam Seder]

Did you play YMCA or whatever it is. They all seem incredibly depressed. If they weren't in this sort of like depressed stupor, they'd probably say, wait a second. So you're saying that countries that rely more on other energy sources outside of oil are suffering more from high oil prices than countries that dump. What you don't understand is Iran is one of the biggest exporters of wind and sunlight. That's right, yeah. Forgetting that all over the world who

[J.D. Vance]

have focused on a lot of green energy scams and they're hurting a lot more than we are. So as much as we've got, we've got to focus on getting these gas prices down. The reality is, overseas, they're feeling it far worse than we did because we had. We've taken the steps to protect our energy economy. So, for example, what we did, working with these allies, that we released hundreds of millions of barrels out of all these petroleum reserves so that we could put some downward pressure on prices. We're working on a number of things, in fact, a couple positive.

[Sam Seder]

I just. We dumped a bunch of our reserves, other countries dumped some of their reserves, and it all goes into putting downward pressure on the cost of oil. But it feels like that surge of reserves is gone now. The price of oil has gone up above $100 a barrel again. There's a limited amount of that. We could drain all our reserves. But the bottom line is if we go to carg island. And I think Senator Holland might be speaking about this. We go to Carg island and destroy Iran's capacity to export oil, or at least a significant portion of it. They're in one of those situations where it's like we don't have that much to lose at this point and things get a lot worse. I mean, J.D. vance here is treading water, hoping that a ship is going to come by and rescue him because he is watching his entire future go down the tubes. That's what he's watching right now.

[J.D. Vance]

On prices. We're working on a number of things. In fact, a couple of things that I think will be announced in just the next 24 to 48 hours.

[Sam Seder]

Yes.

[J.D. Vance]

Next week, the President on that. But we recognize this is an issue. We are fighting against it. And we promise that when this conflict draws to a close, when this operation draws to a close, we're going to see those energy prices come back down to reality because that's what the President promised to do.

[Sam Seder]

You are a douchebag, first off. That's in the cradle. Exactly. I hope people, I hope people appreciate that J.D. vance has appropriated and built on Donald Trump's habit of saying I. We're like, I'd say two weeks away. Two weeks. Two weeks. We have a plan. We're going to release. Vance says, like we are going to release a plan within 24 to 48 hours. I don't want to get ahead of the President. So therefore, like, what happened to that plan? Well, I don't want to get ahead of the President. The President said actually two weeks. So he's mastered that. And we're going to get back to reality soon, folks. Don't worry. Right now you're all living a fantasy.

[Matt Leckie]

Once this conflict slash operation is over,

[Sam Seder]

once this, once we do this excursion, once I'm back from the excursion, we'll get back to reality. Don't worry. Don't believe you're. You're having a dream right now. Yeah. And those are four dollar oil prices. Just know that in Europe, they fell for the sc. In a moment, we'll be talking to Perry Bacon Jr. Staff writer at the New Republic about this absolute insanity. Oh, speaking of which, also there was a report that Denmark, completely apropos of nothing, Denmark, back in January had sent troops to Greenland with explosives to blow up the airfields just in case the US Decided to invade. I just thought that would be fun to drop in there.

[Matt Leckie]

A little trivia.

[Sam Seder]

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[Matt Leckie]

I actually got to find a physical therapist for my foot through there now.

[Sam Seder]

All right, we're all falling apart in this office. That's great. I know folks who found therapists through ZocDoc. It's a great, great service and it is completely free. I want to thank zocdoc for sponsoring today's episode. Stop putting off those doctor's appointments, Brian, and go to Zocdoc.com majority to find it instantly. Book a doctor you love today. That's z o c doc.com Majority Z o c doc.com Majority Thanks Zoc Doc for sponsoring this message. All right, quick break. We'll be right back with Perry Bacon Jr. Sam, We are back. Sam Cedar on the Majority Report. Emma Vigland out today. It is a pleasure to welcome back to the program Perry Bacon Jr. Staff writer at the New Republic, host of the New Republic podcast and show. I guess right now with Perry Bacon. Perry, it's been too long. I Can't. It's been like two or three years, actually, and I was shocked by that. But it's great to see you. Thanks for being here.

[Perry Bacon Jr.]

Thanks for having me.

[Sam Seder]

We were just saying before we came on, like, what a crap show. And you've been talking about, like, we've had to talk about Donald Trump for 10 years at least now, and. Time has not been good to him, and it's certainly almost been worse than the rest of us, I think, because of him.

[Perry Bacon Jr.]

I mean, absolutely, for the rest of us. I mean, because even when Biden was president, there was this looming Trump will run again the entire time. So it's been like this, really. I've been doing political journals of like, 22 years, something like that. So four presidents, but about 10 years now. Most days have been, what did Donald Trump say? And it's not like Donald Trump is some great orator of some or someone with great thoughts on politics. He's just. He's like a cancer on our politics that is. Seems like he's never going away. I guess he is going away eventually, but it feels like it never is never gonna happen.

[Sam Seder]

Well, all right, so let me ask you this. I mean, you and I have been doing this more or less for the same amount of time, like in the early Bush years. And here we are again on the cusp in a very different manner than the buildup to the Iraq War and with a very different context. You know, like, even as late. You know, I started doing radio in 2000, early 2004, and even as that was, you know, a year into the war in Iraq, and even then, the American public had not really fully turned on the war at that point. And it was. It felt rather isolating in many respects to have been against that war certainly in the run up to 2003, but. But certainly by 2004, there was still this sort of sense of, like, no one seems to understand how much of a mess this is. And it's. It's completely different this time around. Like, we're at levels of disapproval of this war that it took like four years to get to in Iraq. I don't know. What do you make of all that?

[Perry Bacon Jr.]

That's well said. You know, I worked at 5:38 for some period, so I read a lot of these poll numbers and stuff. And G. Elliot Morris, great journalist, he has a blog called Strength in Numbers, and he wrote about how this is the first war, I think, in modern history, where from the beginning the American public was clearly opposed. Like, this was not an accident. Like Trump has been talking about invading Iran for Fox News, cbs, ABC polled this. The majority of people opposed to it, only about 25% for it. Now that we're in the war, all the Republicans have got to get on board. So you're at 35% or so support this, but people oppose this from the beginning. And I think Trump, to be fair, not to be fair, but my guess is Trump assumed the Venezuela invasion and takeover happened so quickly that that would happen again here. I think that's the miscalculation. You couldn't really oppose the Venezuela overthrow because it happened in like three hours. So that was not a comparison of the war in Iraq. But this is looking like a quagmire where we're not going to solve the issues. And my guess is Trump did not expect that.

[Sam Seder]

Yeah, I mean, it feels like a slow moving, I mean, like an actual slow moving train crash. And he was obviously, like, encouraged to do this. And as opposed to sort of in his first term, there weren't people who were placed well enough in the administration to sort of thwart all of the different pressures, whether it was Lindsey Graham or Netanyahu or, you know, I don't know what other elements. Yeah, I mean, those are at least two of the big ones and there may be a cadre of others. And, and now it also feels like it's the only other factor that is sort of digging us deeper is that he's still a sucker and he's just. His ego is such that he just can't find an exit strategy.

[Perry Bacon Jr.]

Yeah, it's not clear he can declare victory right now. I think this is the core issue is like the regime is very clear as long as we can all write Confly, they may have killed Ayatollah, but the regime still exists. So you can't claim that's a victory. Oil prices are going up. There's no victory there. Iran still has some weapons. They didn't really have a nuclear program to start with. So I think part of the issue is like, Trump always wants to be the victor and ahead. And I don't think there's any clear way to say that right now. I think that's the issue.

[Sam Seder]

Yeah. And it feels, I mean, now they're deploying another, what is it, 2500 troops, a couple more warships. It sounds like they're going to try and occupy Carg Island. That will undoubtedly caused the Iranians to strike other oil. I mean, it definitely feels like we're just sliding into this thing and literally in doing it in slow Motion. At what point? I mean, and I guess this is another question. You know, you started by saying, like, you know, we've had to talk about Donald Trump for 10 years, and at one point he'll go away. But it seems to me that part of the problem is, is that Republicans do not feel like they're going to pay a price, that the price that they would pay to break from Donald Trump is greater than if they hew closely to him. And it feels to me like, particularly in the context of the war, the Democratic Party is failing to increase the pain that Republicans feel when they associate with Trump. Because we have a Democratic leadership that is sort of in favor of this war in some ways.

[Perry Bacon Jr.]

Let me focus on the Republicans first. I agree with you about the Democrats, but I think part of it is, like, we're in this ERA where now 200 members of most Republican members of Congress, something like 185 of them, are in heavily conservative districts, probably 45 senators in a place. So the biggest threat, if you're a Republican politician today, even more than the Bush era, is to lose a primary. And the way you lose a primary is to say, I don't like Trump, or have Trump not like you. So I think the loyalty to Trump makes sense. And on some level, the Republican Party is kind of built in that they're gonna lose the midterms. I think that's the secret here, is that when they pass that bill full of Medicaid cuts and tax cuts to the rich, they know that's not popular. They know 10 or 12 members who are in moderators, who's gonna lose. They don't really care. They've sort of bought. They sort of went. They know that's happening. So in the Bush area, you had the guardrails because you had Tom delay. I'm not gonna defend Tom delay too much, but he did care about the House majority and was trying to protect it. And at times when Bush did the Social Security thing, the Republicans in Congress were like, this is killing us. Social Security is very popular. Stop it. And so here you have this unpopular war, but the Republicans are saying nothing. Look, in the run up to the war, I found Hakeem and Schumer's comments to be too vague, being critical, because, as you say, they, my guess is secretly support this war. And I don't think there's a doubt about that. They are not where the party is on Israel. That said, now that we're here, pretty much all Democrats have been criticizing this pretty sharply. I'll see where the next polka point is, when this request for money comes to the Hill, will the Democrats oppose this money? Because that's the big test here. Because right now they're saying the right things. But will they refuse to fund this war? Is the core test.

[Sam Seder]

But I mean, doesn't that prove my point, the fact that we don't know?

[Perry Bacon Jr.]

Fair enough. Yeah.

[Sam Seder]

I mean, right. Like, I mean, that's my point is a full throated. This is a suicide mission. We should not be doing this. The American public is fundamentally against it. I mean, you know, this is like you say like a 70, 30, 60, 40. And that 60 is, I think, a lot more adamant than the 40 is. We should know. We shouldn't be. We need to find out if they're going to fund this for another $200 billion, which of course is like, what. That's just the cost of kicking everybody off of Medicaid.

[Perry Bacon Jr.]

You know, I mentioned I started doing this in 2002 or so, and this, we're still in this hangover where Democrats are afraid to be seen as voting against any kind of military action. Any kind of. We're still in this era of we don't want to seem like the peacenik party. That's still what's driving this. Like, we have a lot of Democratic members of Congress who were on the Hill back when the Persian Gulf War started in the 90s. And I think they're not adjusting to where the public, including independents, even some Republicans, the public is much more anti war and skeptical of war than it used to be. And the Democratic leadership is not there because Chuck Schumer's been in Washington the entire time. Even the newer members often have these consultants and so on around them. I think that's the issue is I'm not even sure they like this war as much as they are like Schumer and Hakeem. I think you like this war, but I think other people are more fearful of seeming anti war. I think that's what's really driving this year.

[Sam Seder]

Right. I think, I mean, I agree with that, but it would be if we didn't have leadership that is in favor of this war. I mean, Chuck Schumer, like, when I think of the times where he has been most critical of Donald Trump, it was a video he cut about Taco Trump doing side deals with Iran to presumably avoid conflict. This was, I don't know, I guess about a year ago now, maybe a little bit less. And he's out there. It's all, it was all process because he wanted to make sure that he, he, he, he thought this would be a good thing for, for Trump to do. He just didn't want fingerprints on it. But they need to be out here now talking about because like you say, the House is a foregone conclusion, I think in all type of reasonable prediction. But there isn't actually opportunity now for the Senate. And they're not forcing Senate Republican candidates to take a vociferous position. I mean like this is the leverage point, right? Like they're afraid to go against Trump. And if they're put on the spot, then they're really put on the spot.

[Perry Bacon Jr.]

Yeah, that'll be like Susan Collins, who's in Maine, who's in this swing state, let's say she's got to be worried about this because ultimately the war of votes are going to require 60 votes. So Democrats have some leverage here and that in the Senate that is the place where they can block this funding or do something about this funding. And one problem we have here is continuing to go like that is like one objection which you hear from the Schumer types is Donald Trump did not get congressional authorization. Well, and the other group is like Graham Platner or AOC is like this war or Sam Cedar, this war is illegal and we should stop doing it. And the problem is the procedural thing is gonna run out of time. Now Donald Trump is asking you for money, asking you for permission. So you actually have to like, you can't do the process dance anymore. You now have to actually oppose this war or not. And I do think the base is so strong. I'll be curious, which I'm having a hard time seeing any Senate Democrat voting. Like if you're Jon Ossoff, your base is a, you know, have to win swing voters, but your base is really opposed to this. I'll be curious what they do here. Voting for this is going to be a real problem if you're a Democratic senator.

[Sam Seder]

Yeah, I think so. I mean, not for John Fetterman probably, but just about everybody else.

[Perry Bacon Jr.]

I mean, Fetterman, there's a few we could go through.

[Sam Seder]

Yes, but yeah, so let's talk about that. There was, you wrote about this earlier in the week. The Illinois was the latest state to have their primaries. The primaries have been much more engaged in many respects than I remember really at any time over the past 20 years in that there is in all of these primaries. I mean, part because we're having some generational change. Right. And so you're having long term incumbents drop out of very blue districts. And so there's a much stronger opportunity for the Democrats in a district that's sure to go blue. And we had a couple of those in Illinois sure to go blue to make a decision as to like, what does a safe Democratic seat look like? And you wrote about that 5050 on like sort of the APAC

[Perry Bacon Jr.]

crypto, crypto

[Sam Seder]

money, AI, big money. The corporatists in many respects and the more progressive Justice Democrats, AOC style Democrats. What was your sense of how things

[Perry Bacon Jr.]

turned out like to be very reductive. Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton raised each other. They did not have that many public policy differences and there wasn't like a clear cut thing versus now we are in this era, the Iraq war, I

[Sam Seder]

mean really, I mean it was, was a proxy for all that.

[Perry Bacon Jr.]

Right. That was why Obama won. That was the difference before they started. Once you got into the primary, they didn't. Hillary pretended to be against the war and Bush didn't do it. Right. And you know, so yeah, so that's what I mean is like, yes, so but now we have like seven or eight issues where I could tell you the AOC candidate is different than the moderate other candidate. And that's every primary is becoming a contest between I'll say aoc, Bernie Sanders, Warren Justice, Democrats, progressive caucus versus the other is hard though, because the other is not being overt. Often Hakeem Jeffries does not endorse the moderate candidate in most situations, but he is, we know he is rooting for those people. And so part of this is the party has moved now to where populous stands on economics and also being anti Netanyahu, being skeptical of big money. In some ways the progressives have won the policy arguments right now, but the big money set has lots of money. And when you saw in some of these races where these conservative Democrats were running these ads, I stood up to ice. I hate ice. I voted for Obama. They're sort of like lying about their record and they, they have the money to do it because they know where the party is. So in two of these races, the more moderate candidate, the APEC or crypto candidate won, but they didn't run for the office saying I love crypto, I love apec, AI will make the world a better place. They set all these liberal things in their ads or have ads run on their behalf saying they're liberal. So this is the real test is now progressive candidates not only have to be on the right side, they have to, on some level to communicate to voters that the other person is lying about and when they get to Congress is not gonna be our side. And that's tricky.

[Sam Seder]

It's tricky. I saw somebody on Twitter, I can't remember who it was, but it was a great comment and I wish I could credit them, but they said we are one cycle away from AIPAC backed candidates coming out against Israel.

[Perry Bacon Jr.]

I think that's exactly right. And well said. I laughed. I saw the same tweet you did, which is like. Yeah, because they're just like they cannot. This is a good sign. We should say this openly. This is a good step that AIPAC is no longer. You're not required. When Obama and Hillary ran, you were required to say how much you loved the Israeli government and how little you cared about Palestinians. Now you have to say the reverse in public. That's a good shift. But we have to get the members there. At the end of the day, Kristen Gillibrand, when it came to push come to shove, would not endorse Zoran Mandani. And I think that was related to this issue a lot. So we need to get the people in office to ultimately change their actions on this issue. But you know, the rhetoric change is better than nothing, I would say.

[Sam Seder]

Yeah, I mean it seems to me there's like there's a two step process to this. One is. And I think I just saw a piece today, I don't know if it was in Axios. I think it was about the cpc, the Congressional Progressive Office and Khazar

[Senator Chris Van Hollen]

meeting

[Sam Seder]

with outside groups presumably like a Justice Democrats and maybe some other groups to saying like look, we got to figure this out because we're splitting the vote. I mean that certainly happened in, in the ninth, I think with Kat Abizala. It certainly happened in which one was the. I can't remember the numbers off the top of my head now. It's my. But we saw that in a couple of cases and there's really. We've got I think until May until the next big round of primaries. And it's going to be interesting to see if, if the model of Mamdani and Brad Lander can be replicated across because when Lander, you know, cross endorsed essentially and seeded in some ways to Mamdani in that race. It's not a one to one analogy but that dynamic and it could go the other way too where the DSA person says okay, I'm gonna go with the sort of not DSA person but someone who is clearly to the left of the establishment candidate. That's going to be an interesting dynamic.

[Perry Bacon Jr.]

Yeah, you have this Michigan Senate race, I think it's. Mallory McMurrow is more progressive, is another progressive candidate. And then you have Haley Steven, real dscc, moderate. And like, right now, the two progressive ish candidates are splitting the votes. So Stevens is leading most polls if one of them coalesced. But in New York, of course, you had this ranked choice thing. That's the big differences with the ranked ranked choice. Brad Lander didn't have to have to leave the race. He was able to stay in the race. And I think that's a huge difference. So you got to get that in line. I guess ultimately I'm thinking ahead a little bit. Another problem with this is, like, Bernie and Senator Warren are probably the biggest progressive voices. They sometimes endorse the wrong. There's different people. Like, they. I know they don't love each other, but they work in the same building. It would be nice if they got on the same page because that'll. That'll. They both endorse someone that becomes clearly the progressive candidate. We're all, you know, people are looking to. So they should not be, you know, they're. They're adults. They can do. They want to do, but they should not be splitting. And they're splitting in Michigan, for example.

[Sam Seder]

Well, Michigan is actually a great example because, like, as I. I certainly would espouse the broader left versus the establishment candidates to sort of like, be adults and get together. But when I start to think about it, particularly in Michigan, I have a problem, right? Because obviously I don't want the. Schumer picked Haley Stevens. I think it's well understood that that was their preferred candidate. But McMurray is. She's got the same sort of like, what's Liz Smith and the, the. There's a lot of, like, yeah, there's a lot of establishment people who have sort of surrounded her. And it's. It's almost as if, like, these candidates, they're not people. They're like dinghies, right? And when Haley Stevens took on water, all the wrong people got into the McMurray dinghy, it seems to me. And that's what we're voting on. We're not just voting on the candidate. We're voting on the people that she's. That are around her and that support her and her constituents in some way. And so I find it hard to deal with it. But. But on some level, it's like, I also don't want Haley Stevens.

[Perry Bacon Jr.]

Like. Like, I personally, I would vote for Abdul. Abdul El sayed over Mallory McMurray without question for the reasons McMorrow's more progressive, but on a big vote, I worry, would she go with the donors? I'm concerned about that. Yes. It's not a clear case versus, like, in Maine is a very clear case. Plattner is going to be progressive and Mills is gonna do whatever Schumer says. Like that is one where it's obvious. And I'm not defending everything Platner's done, but in our set. But I think that was more obvious in Michigan is tricky. And part of it is like the Warren side says, we're more practical, we're more electable, we're more establishment. And the Bernie side says, well, we're gonna. We need to fight the system. And we're gonna. If our person gets in there, they're gonna throw elbows and so on. And there's like, would Warren have done better if she was the final progressive candidate than Sanders? I think there's. You can debate the question. I get the point that they're making, which is that sometimes Warren's approach brings more of the regular Democrats along, but in many. But there's some dangers there too.

[Sam Seder]

So, yeah, it's. I mean, I guess it's just a matter of time. But I wonder if that ends up being. I mean, there's a certain sort of like. I wonder if this ends up being a stretch because if there was a third person in Maine, I think at this point Platner has, like, won over Mainers, you know, in a way that I frankly, I find and almost like surprising to see a primary candidate who was not chosen by the establishment have, like, thoroughly sort of like, you know, it's a small state, and so it's a very different dynamic. But if there was a third person the day that Platner had come in who was younger, you know, who was like, like a McMurrow in that race, it would be a lot murkier right now. And so Michigan is gonna be sort of like. I think the. Is gonna be an interesting. And it's gonna be a dilemma because, you know, McMurray has come out against single payer healthcare. I mean, with the most ridiculous ways, but I mean, that's, that's the reality there.

[Perry Bacon Jr.]

I was a little surprised Warren jumped out there, that I didn't expect that. I thought she might stay. I thought she might stay undecided on that one. That was like that. McMorrow does strike me as being not like, not as. Not nearly as populous as Warren. So I would. That one, you know, I mean, you know, Warren probably Talked to her. So I'm not gonna. Like you're curious, like, if Warren is pushing a big bill to regulate something hard, is she sure McMorrow would vote for it? Cause I'm not. But I assume Warren is very intelligent.

[Sam Seder]

I suspect Warren got assurances on some things. I mean, Warren is very, very good at getting at like the transactional inside game. She came from academia, I think, combined with like her sort of her actual background. She's. She's able to sort of manipulate those things. But the breadth of her, the width of her, her portfolio maybe is not as economics based. Yeah. Yes. And so that is interesting. And I think it could also be an indication that there is an understanding that she's going to win, that McMurray is going to like or that Stevens is not going to win. Let's put it that way.

[Perry Bacon Jr.]

Stevens. Stevens has a good chance of winning. So I don't. But I. Maybe there's an understanding. I don't have a good sense that. I guess my sense was that Abdul has been in third in most of the polls. Yes, that would be. If you're like looking, period, how do we win? If I was looking at this in a raw sense, we need to endorse one person. The person who is polling better is very narrow. The person who's polling better. Although it's worth noting, I'm not on the ground either. My sense is I have a couple friends who are in Maine. And it's not just that Platner is progressive and Mills is establishment. Platner's done a great job getting out there. People like him. There are plenty of actual Democratic voters who are not in the, you know, I'm in the progressive camp, other people in the moderate camp, but many, many actual voters are not in any camp. And so it might be on the ground that McMorrow is more charismatic or getting out. There's certainly local campaign factors that are non ideological that do shape these races. Obviously, like, Flynn is on a really good job of just being connected with everybody and being out there. In a way, Mills happens to be kind of a flat candidate. I think it hurts her a lot.

[Sam Seder]

Oh, definitely. And just as a. I mean, here's the thing that we talk about this race quite a bit around here, but Mills has this liability that I think is. Has been unexplored in the context of a general election. Not just that, like, there's no, you know, there's a. There's obviously a difference between Mills and Collins just because of who could conceivably be The Senate Majority leader. But in giving up Collins, you're giving up a lot of seniority. And you. For Mills, you're trading that for someone who is guaranteed to never have seniority. You're getting a senior, but you're not getting seniority ever. Because she's going to. She's. I mean, she's vowed to serve only one term. I think that is. We got to take that as she's actually going to make it through one term as opposed to she's going to. Not going to do two. But. But you lose all the seniority and you have no. You're setting the clock back six years to regain it. And it's not like Angus King. Angus King is older than, I think, both of them. And so Maine will be in the backwoods forever if. And I don't know how much discussion that actually gets. And I'm surprised.

[Perry Bacon Jr.]

The thing I'm focused on most is, like, I just think this age thing has landed with people like Biden staying on too long. You know, people are talking about this like, Democrat, Republican, independent. The age thing has landed. So both in Texas. I think Talarico will benefit from the fact that Cornyn and paxton, they're not 80, but they are old and have been there a long time. Platinum is going to benefit. He's young and new. Mills has been governor. Kyle's been in Congress for 1,000 years. Like, I think the real contrast is people want to see new faces. And I think that's the argument Platinus are leaning to until lean into is maybe not seniority, but, like, we just need a new person with youth. And I think he can run the same campaign. He's running against Mills and against Collins in a certain way, because a new voice is what just a lot of voters want, particularly voters under 50, I would say. Like, I was talking to a friend of mine. I went to Yale for college. Rosa DeLauro was the congresswoman when I enrolled in college in 1998. She's still like, this is. Like, this is insanity. Like, people should get a chance to vote for somebody else in their adult. I don't live in New Haven, so I'm not. But people should get a chance to vote for somebody else in their adult life. I'm in Kentucky. Mitch McConnell has been one of the senators, actually, almost my entire adult life. This is just insanity.

[Donald Trump]

Well,

[Sam Seder]

one last note on Platter, but I want to ask you about Kentucky, since you're there. I think that's true, but I think, like, Platter doesn't have to make an argument about the age difference quite obvious.

[Perry Bacon Jr.]

It seems very. He looks young. Right.

[Sam Seder]

But I think in small states, the notion of seniority, where a senator brings back material benefits in a way that like, you know, some people might associate with their Congress person more, but in a state like that size, I think that's probably. I don't know how much it's being

[Perry Bacon Jr.]

talked about here, in fact. So I think that's a good point. McConnell often emphasized I'm the most, you know, I've been here for a thousand years. I'm on those committees. Yeah, that's a good point. Yeah. I'm gonna think about it now. Yeah.

[Sam Seder]

Yeah. I mean, it's an interesting. I think it would come out more in, in a general election than it would. But lastly, in Kentucky, is there any chance for a guy like Booker?

[Perry Bacon Jr.]

No. You know, I know Charles. Charles is a great guy. Just, you know, like Andy Beshear won here because his dad was Governor. He won. 2019 was an off year. Matt Bevin, the previous governor, was very, very unpopular. People view state politics a little bit differently, but the rest of the down ticket loss with Bashir in 2023 as well, I just don't. Yeah, I just think this is kind of a. Even the Republicans have three people who are running and I think one of their ads is criticizing DEI and saying it's okay to be white. That's literally stated in the ad, basically, it's okay to be white. So they're running maga. Maga. Maga. Aggressive maga. But I just. This has just become an extremely conservative state. So if the Democrat gets the 43, that'd be a win a certain way.

[Sam Seder]

Wow. All right. Well, I guess we'll see. Well, it's still early. Hope springs eternal because, you know, who

[Perry Bacon Jr.]

knows, Roy Cooper actually could win if I was like, Roy Cooper is in a great position in North Carolina, close to our state, but just less conservative.

[Sam Seder]

Yeah. And we'll see what this war does if we're in this in three or four months is as bad as it's gonna. As it appears it might be. Perry Bacon Jr. It's a real pleasure. We will link to right now with Perry Bacon and of course to your work in the New Republic. Really appreciate your time. Time.

[Perry Bacon Jr.]

Good to see you, Sam.

[Sam Seder]

All right, folks, we're going to take quick break. When we come back, Senator Chris Van Hollen will be here. I imagine we'll be talking about some of the similar topics. He's also got a big tax plan that he has rolled out as a proposal. There's elections coming up over the next three years, so I don't know.

[Donald Trump]

All right.

[Senator Chris Van Hollen]

We'll see.

[Sam Seder]

We'll talk to you in a moment. All right. We'll be right back. We're going to take a quick break. We are back. Sam Cedar on the Majority Report. Emma Viglin out today, much to her chagrin because of our next guest, Senator Chris Van Holland from Maryland. Welcome to the program, Sam.

[Senator Chris Van Hollen]

It's great to be with you and really give my best to Emma.

[Sam Seder]

I will. She'll be glad to hear that. All right. Let's before we get into Iran, I want to start with some news that you've made over the past couple of days. You released a proposal, a pretty significant one, tax proposal. It's being paired. Cory Booker also released his. There's some similarities, some differences. Just walk us through sort of the broad strokes of the proposal.

[Senator Chris Van Hollen]

Sure. And it's good to be with you. And there are very important distinctions between these different proposals. I want to make that clear from the beginning. So the proposal I introduced with 19 of my colleagues all together, including Bernie Sanders and some of the more moderate members of our caucus, is essentially designed with this idea. If you're simply making enough income to meet your basic cost of living expenses, then you should be able to keep more of that income. And for a single person, a single worker, that turns out to be about $46,000 across the country, that's the median. And the idea, Sam, is if you're making a living wage, you should be able to live off of that wage and not be subject to federal income tax. Now, we pay for this with a surtax on millionaires. In other words, if you're making over $1 million a year, you will pay an additional, you know, starting with 5% on that first dollar, over a million. So this is a proposal designed to say to folks who are working hard every day just to make ends meet, that we're going to provide you a little relief that you can keep a little bit more of your paycheck to meet your basic cost of living needs.

[Sam Seder]

All right. And I should say, you know, I've read quite a bit on how it impacts things in terms of distributionally and horizontally, et cetera, et cetera, etc, and it gets very good scores. And we should also say those taxes on the wealthy are taxed on the adjusted gross income. So you can't really sort of slide out of that with capital gains tax or other things. It really in many respects sort of like shifts that burden But. And it scores. I think it's a net positive in terms of, like, the deficit for folks who are concerned about those issues. But what do you say to the criticism of. This is problematic? Because in, I mean, I get the affordability situation, but it sends in a message that the burden of affordability that Americans are subjected to is a function of taxation or our government, as opposed to the things that need not be necessarily handled by the private market. Health insurance, maybe energy in some respects. I mean, we go on and on, but. Or child care. I mean, free college. I mean, there's a whole host of things that the government could be doing for Americans that it's not, but it's going to need everybody to pay some tax for it.

[Senator Chris Van Hollen]

So I would say two things, Sam. We are facing an affordability crisis in the United States. People's rents are going up or their mortgage payments. Groceries are going up, as you said, Electricity prices are going up. And we should be very focused on using all of our powers to rein in some of the special interests, to try to contain and bring down those costs. But the other side of the coin is how much income you have to meet your needs and pay your bills and deal with those costs. And so I see this is helping those individuals who are simply earning enough in their paycheck to meet their basic living expenses. Why wouldn't we want to make sure that they have a little more room to help pay for all those things we talked about? I do want to be clear. This is not designed to be the only part of a Democratic tax plan. I mean, I also support Bernie Sanders wealth tax, for example, because we do need to address other things. We need to restore the Affordable Care act tax credits that were cut. We need to expand the child tax credit. I'm a co sponsor of those bills. But I think it would be a big mistake if we say to working people who are just getting by that they're not entitled to any kind of relief as well. Many of those individuals, Sam, don't benefit from some of these other programs. And I think that they deserve a little relief, these folks going paycheck to paycheck.

[Sam Seder]

I guess, I mean, philosophically, that is the point. Like, why not have them benefit from these other programs? I mean, there's. There's two ways you can do it. You can, you can say that the government is causing this burden or that the government could be doing more to. To alleviate these other burdens. Because down the road, where is the room for. And where is the room to expand government services like you know, child care proposals, for instance, or stuff. That was because, you know, Joe Biden had proposed be in the build back better bill before, you know, Joe Manchin and Kristen Sinema were allowed to sort of interfere with the process. What happens when we need to, when we want to provide those things for Americans?

[Senator Chris Van Hollen]

Well, I would say two things. First of all, we're not saying that the government is imposing these burdens. We are saying that these individuals should be able to keep a little bit more of their paycheck to meet expenses. These are individuals again, who are just earning enough to get by and meet their basic needs. As I said earlier, there are other ways to generate revenue which I support and I'm a co sponsor of those bills. I mean, for example, Senator Sanders wealth tax generates over $4 trillion over 10 years. Elizabeth Warren has a proposal that I also support. So there is of course room to do both of these things. In other words, you can provide for, you know, the health care, you know, tax credits and also provide a little bit of relief to these people who are being squeezed. I don't see them as mutually exclusive at all. You know, Republicans provided a big tax cut that essentially this benefited the very wealthy. If you look at their proposal, 75% of the benefits went to the top 20%. In the case of this legislation, all of the benefits go to individuals from the 80% down people with individual tax liabilities. So I don't think this is an either or, Sam. I think we need to do both and we need to have the political will to do both.

[Sam Seder]

Yeah, I hope so. I mean, I certainly appreciate the high end increases on taxes and agree with that. I think it's more, you know, from my perspective, the thing that makes it a little queasy is just sort of like philosophically speaking, we're all citizens and if our government is providing us benefits and I certainly, you know, I think there's definitely reason for people to say I feel like I'm paying these taxes and I'm not getting back what. But American taxes are broadly much lower than most industrialized countries. Not most, all industrialized countries. And I think it's really just a question of like let's get more services, but let's, we'll leave it there because we're also. Unless you want to.

[Senator Chris Van Hollen]

Just really briefly. Yeah, really briefly. So look, as you know, at the federal level, people already pay their FICA taxes, right? We pay for Social Security, we pay for Medicare. And unlike a lot of European countries where the government provides at the central level a lot of services in our system, as you know, our federal system, a lot of those are provided at the state and local level. So education, for example, there are a lot of European countries where the central government is the main payer. Here we have people who are paying their state and local taxes, they're paying property taxes, they're paying state and local sales taxes. So it's not as if all the people here we're talking about aren't paying taxes to provide services for schools or roads in their local neighborhoods. We have a different system than a lot of the other countries, our peer countries. And so what we're saying, the question, I guess I would ask folks, is really, if someone is making a living wage, what we all agree is a living wage, meaning just enough to get by, shouldn't we let them keep that money, those folks, so that they can pay their bills? I mean, that's the fundamental question here. And we ask the folks making over $1 million a year to pitch in more so other people can get by.

[Sam Seder]

I like the second part of that. The first part, I would say let's take a couple of things off their plate that they don't have to spend money on and free up their money that way. But with that said, one of those things is going to end up being gas prices because of what now appears to be an escalation. I mean, aside from the absolute insanity of this war in the first place, it feels like a slow motion car wreck, like we're watching us just devolve into what could be just an incredibly protracted war. Give me your sense of where we're at and how we got to here, just without seemingly any motivation.

[Senator Chris Van Hollen]

Yes, Sam, this is a disaster. The Trump administration took us into this war with constantly shifting rationales. They never had a clear purpose. And every time they said, you know, we're going in, for example, to prevent Iran from getting a nuclear weapon, you know, we all know that Iran was nowhere close to getting a nuclear weapon. So then they changed their rationale. They have no end game. And what they've done is take the lid off Pandora's box. They've made us all less safe. They've made the region less stable. And in the process, We've already lost 13 of our service members, hundreds injured, over 2,000 civilians in the region killed, including over 150 Iranian schoolgirls, costing us $2 billion a day in gas prices. And oil prices are going up. This is a disaster in my view, and the sooner we can put an end to it, the better. And that's my focus.

[Sam Seder]

What do you make? I mean, I know that you, I think, if I remember correctly, you were a freshman congressperson when Bush invaded Iraq. It was a very different time in terms of, like, the sentiment of the country. I mean, where are the leverage points to. I mean, this is a president who's going in, committing us to what could be a massive, massive war without even 50% approval of this war on day one. I mean, it's at best, 40% maybe. And I don't, you know, I don't. I think that's basically where Iraq was at the end of. Where are the leverage points for the 60% of the country that doesn't want to be engaged in this?

[Senator Chris Van Hollen]

Well, you're right. This is an unpopular war and for good reasons. I mean, Donald Trump seemed to understand that as a candidate when he promised that he would not drag us into foreign wars, especially wars in the Middle East. And you're right about the Iraq war. I mean, the Iraq war was also one we got dragged into. And at the end of the day, the biggest winner from the Iraq war was actually Iran. I mean, we're at this moment, but ironically, it was Iran that was strengthened because we helped, you know, take out one of the counterbalances to Iran. But the leverage point, you know, given that we have Republicans who have essentially signed away their constitutional duties to the president and keep voting against these war powers resolutions, is the funding. And, you know, I've been very clear. I will not vote for additional funds for this very stupid war. And if you want to protect our troops, if you want to make us more safe, we should put an end to this war. Now, now, now, as you say, it's very unpopular here. It is a very, it's a popular war in Israel with Prime Minister Netanyahu. And Prime Minister Netanyahu said within the last couple weeks, you know, he'd been waiting 40 years, 40 years for an American president who would join him in going after Iran in this particular way. And, you know, Donald Trump is a president who's stupid enough and reckless enough to do it.

[Sam Seder]

And, you know, we've heard from the secretary of State where he said that Israel sort of forced, he tried to walk it back the next day, but people forget that. Also, Mike Johnson almost simultaneously said the exact same thing. I think Tom Cotton said something similar, the president said something similar about voting against more funding for this war. What is your perspective on how the Democratic leadership it, both in the House and in the Senate? Like how I was just talking to Perry Bacon Jr. Who writes for the New Republic. And he said, well, we'll have to see how Democrats vote for that. Isn't there a problem if we have to see, like, before, like, like why we don't know right now where Democrats stand on funding this war because it's letting the Republicans off the hook. It's hard to argue about that War Powers resolution when we don't know how Democrats are going to vote on the funding of the war.

[Senator Chris Van Hollen]

Well, Sam, you're right. I agree with you. And, you know, there are a lot of folks whose opposition to the war was primarily based on procedure and, you know, the Trump administration not consulting, as opposed to going to the core problem, which is this war is making us less safe, not more safe, and creating more instability and imposing huge costs both in lives and in treasure. So we're going to be working to make sure that we build Democratic unity against funding this war. As you know, at the end of the day, in the Vietnam War, for example, it only came to an end because people decided, decided not to provide more money for it. We should be doing that right now when it comes to the Iran war. And I really urge everybody to be, you know, reaching out and contacting their members of the Senate and the House to ask them that fundamental question, because we should not be prolonging this war. Paying more money for the war is just another way of keeping it going, and we should be ending it.

[Sam Seder]

Let me ask you about sort of that question of leadership, because it's been reported that you're part of a Fight Club. You know, you're not supposed to talk about Fight Club or I've seen the movie or whatnot, but this notion that there is a caucus, whether, you know, you know, you know, a specific caucus or just sort of like a group of people who are meeting, talking about supporting new, different candidates, maybe in some of these Senate elections, and also, also encouraging. Is there a sense of, like, what is your sense of Chuck Schumer's position as a Senate minority leader right now? Like, how, how safe is that position in your mind?

[Senator Chris Van Hollen]

Well, let me just say the Fight Club. And you're right, the first rule of Fight Club is supposed to be you don't talk about Fight Club. But here we are. We have. There's a group of us who got together because we did not think that, that the Senate Democrats were fighting back hard enough and strongly enough. That was especially true months ago. But these questions may come up, as you say, with respect to funding for the Iran war and other things. We were also unhappy with the fact that the DSCC seemed to be putting its foot on the scale, in some cases was putting its foot on the scale with respect to certain Democratic primary Senate candidates, candidates who seem to be more like just old establishment candidates who were not meeting the moment we're in. And so that's why we got together. So for example, a group of us, you know, are strongly supporting Peggy Flanagan, she's lieutenant governor out in Minnesota, against what we think are more sort of establishment, corporate Democratic candidates running. And we're looking at some of the other races as well. But that was the origin of this. And I think many of us remain concerned with, especially with respect to, you know, weighing in on these Senate races.

[Sam Seder]

Do you think that it's going to stick to the leadership? Because, I mean, as far as I can tell, I mean, obviously we're, we're months out and we don't know even what the primaries are going to do. But I'm looking in Maine, I'm looking in Michigan, like you say Minnesota. I mean, there's the, at least in terms of what has been reported, the preferred candidate, the Democratic Senate Campaign Committee is not doing that well. And so like, I'm happy about that, both from like a sort of a ideological standpoint, but as just a sheer objective political measure. If we have a leadership that can't even assess who Democrats, Democrats are interested in, that seems to me to be a big problem and a recipe for like new people to be in those positions.

[Senator Chris Van Hollen]

Well, look, obviously everyone's goal is to elect more Democrats to the United States Senate so that we can get a majority in the Senate and in the House. But to your point, there's a difference of opinion on who is best positioned as Democratic candidates, candidates to do that. And I strongly believe that a lot of it depends on the momentum people have, the grassroots energy they have. And that means these insurgent candidates who are taking on the establishment. You know, God help us if Democrats think In the next 2028 election, for example, that our goal should be simply to go back to the pre Trump status quo. Obviously, people were very unhappy with the pre Trump status quo. That's how we got this crazy man in the White House. But there are a number of candidates who are more, you know, let's not rock the boat. Let's sort of just go back to way business was being done as usual. This is not a business as usual moment. So that, that was really what gave rise to the fight club. And you know, we're continuing to be very engaged.

[Sam Seder]

One last final question. Since we, you know, that that idea that we can't go back to where we were, obviously, I think it's pretty clear the autopsy has been buried by the dnc. It may come to light at one point, but I think it's become increasingly clear to people understand that Harris and the position that she essentially inherited from Biden regarding Israel and Gaza was not only a problem, moral problem and a strategic problem, but also a political problem for the Democrats. What else? Is there anything else that you would point to during the Biden administration that you think was a mistake? I'm thinking in terms of like the build back better bill. But was there ever what was a mistake that you think that Biden did that still sort of rings that stands out to you if there was one?

[Senator Chris Van Hollen]

Well, I would say first of all, as you mentioned, the fact that the Biden administration essentially gave a blank check to the Netanyahu government while the Netanyahu government just flattened and destroyed Gaza with the huge humanitarian and civilian toll there and also didn't do much to rein in, you know, violent Israeli settlers on the West Bank. And we're watching that now spike even more as the United States does nothing. I think that as you said, that was a moral failure and a strategic failure. I would say the other thing, Sam, goes to this issue of making sure that we take on powerful special interests and we make sure that we have a tax code that works for working people and not a tax code that essentially benefits people who make money off of money. Right. We have it. We have a system now that rewards people who make money off of money and penalizes people who are working hard for paycheck every day. That's one of the reasons I've advanced the, you know, working Americans tax cut plan. It's also why I see this as only one pillar of a larger plan. And I think we need to be clear Democrats that in order to take on this huge amount of inequality in commonwealth, we also do need to have that wealth tax because people are passing on millions, hundreds of millions of dollars tax free to their heirs when they die because we have this stepped up basis. So we are creating more and more an American aristocracy and that is going to destroy our democracy and our country. And so I think that, you know, a lot of the proposals the Biden folks put forward were good on the tax front. The problem is we never saw the fight and the energy to get it done. And I think it's going to be absolutely essential going forward. We do that. The other thing is, and you know, I'VE been focused on this like a laser beam. We mentioned electricity costs. You know, I put forward a proposal that makes it absolutely clear here, you and me and my constituents and people around the country should not be paying one more cent, not one more cent in higher electricity costs because the richest companies on the planet want to build data centers in the area that I live. It's a regional grid called PJM. People have already paid $28 billion, Sam, in additional costs for data centers. No. So we need to be very clear, we Democrats, that we're going to take on these powerful special interests. We're going to look out for working people. And clearly we lost our way because the American people supported Donald Trump in the last election. They thought he was the guy to break the status quo, and he has. But he's done it in all the wrong ways. And now people are realizing just how much he betrayed them on all these issues, said he was going to reduce costs, costs are going up, keep us out of foreign wars. He's launched a war in Iran. Iran. And so I do think people are feeling betrayed, rightly so, by Donald Trump. But Democrats need to do more than say what we're against. We need to be really clear what we're for.

[Sam Seder]

Senator Chris Van Hollen I also just wanted to say, just note, you know, the work you did in terms of Kilmar Abrego Garcia and fighting against Trump's immigration proposals at a time where there was a lot of pressure from different quarters in the Democratic Party saying, keep your head down, don't say anything about this. I just wanted to say appreciated that as well.

[Senator Chris Van Hollen]

Well, thank you just for mentioning that, because you're right, it was about a year ago now, it was about a year ago right now that that happened. And you're right, I got really mad because, you know, we had a 9 to 0 Supreme Court decision telling the Trump administration they need to bring him back home. They were ignoring it. They said he would remain in El Salvador in a gulag, essentially forever. So I got mad and went and got him. But you're absolutely right, Sam. There were a lot of Democrats at the time that were really queasy, finger to the wind. And if we've all learned a lesson, it should be that the finger in the wind, calculating politics is weak. It's absolutely weak. And, you know, there's room for people to disagree with us on different things. But what people, I do think, appreciate is when people take a stand and stand on principle and protecting people's constitutional due process rights should be One of those.

[Sam Seder]

Yeah, it seems like a gimme. Senator Chris Van Hollen, thank you so much for your time today. Really appreciate it.

[Senator Chris Van Hollen]

Back at you. Thank you.

[Sam Seder]

All right, folks, that is our free half of the show. That's a lot of free material. My God, like what more, well, more

[Matt Leckie]

do you people want from us?

[Sam Seder]

Exactly. Who gonna do bring JD Vance on

[Perry Bacon Jr.]

now

[Sam Seder]

it's defensive for no reason. Yeah, exactly. I feel better that it's only one. It's only been a 90 minute show and so I feel like we're folks. It's your support that helps this show thrive and survive. You can become a member by going to join the majorityreport.com. when you do, you not only get the free show free of commercials, but you also get an extraordinary amount of content for free.

[Matt Leckie]

Some people say too much.

[Sam Seder]

Too much. There's never. I've never had a conversation with somebody who works in this space who hasn't said, like you do too much content.

[Matt Leckie]

Yeah, yeah. Well, I mean, my laptop of the show says you get 50 minutes free of 50 minutes in the bonus.

[Sam Seder]

Yeah, exactly. The whole show was supposed to be an hour and a half free and fun half. And it's just like grown like a monster. You're kidding me. Oh, when we first launched, the first half was 45 minutes and the second half was 45 minutes. That lasted like two weeks. Let's bring that back. Yeah, no kidding. It's not like much is happening.

[Matt Leckie]

No, it's not a lot to cover.

[Sam Seder]

You can become a member@jointhemajori report.com also just coffee co op, fair trade coffee, hot chocolate. Use the coupon code. Majority get 10% off. Great coffee, folks. Don't miss out. Matt. What's happening in the Matt Leckian media universe? Yeah.

[Matt Leckie]

Over at the Jacob and Meg YouTube channel at 3 o' clock Eastern. Folks will be rated actually from this YouTube stream or the fun half YouTube stream to it. We're talking with Alex Brunel about the lessons of Zora Momdani and can they be applied to a state like Texas? Alex is a really great DSA organizer and he's also with Local Progress. I believe he co founded San Antonio dsa. If there's a more relevant commentary on that question of like, can Zoron be lesson. What lessons from Zorron can be applied across the country? It's this one. So I highly recommend anyone wondering about what the next steps forward are. It's coming up at 3:00 Eastern at the Jackman Mag YouTube channel.

[Sam Seder]

All right, folks, and also, if you want to see Emma live on the Pituation Room, you'll have to join the Pituation Room Patreon, because the show itself is sold out. Sold out weeks and weeks ago, so. Plus, a lot of people don't live in California, apparently.

[Senator Chris Van Hollen]

Because of the taxes.

[Sam Seder]

Yep.

[Matt Leckie]

Because of the blue.

[Sam Seder]

Because the taxes are so crazy. Come on. Too woke out there. See you in the fun half.

[Perry Bacon Jr.]

You are in for it.

[Sam Seder]

All right, folks. 6, 4, 6, 2, 5, 7, 3, 9, 2, 0. See you in the fun half. Are you ready? Who sent us this?

[Perry Bacon Jr.]

Anarchy.

[DJ or Music Interlude Voice]

Alpha males are back, back, back, back, back Boy is back and the alpha males are back, back Just as delicious

[Sam Seder]

as you could imagine the alpha males

[DJ or Music Interlude Voice]

are back, back, back, back, back Boy is back and the alpha males are

[Sam Seder]

back, back, back, back Just want to degrade the white man.

[DJ or Music Interlude Voice]

Alpha males are back, back.

[Sam Seder]

I take all

[DJ or Music Interlude Voice]

males are back, back,

[Sam Seder]

back, back Snowflake says what?

[DJ or Music Interlude Voice]

The alpha males are.

[Sam Seder]

You are a madman.

[DJ or Music Interlude Voice]

And the alpha males are back, back.

[Sam Seder]

Oh, no. Sam Cedar.

[Perry Bacon Jr.]

What a. Wow. What a nightmare.

[Sam Seder]

Yeah, or a couple of them. Just put them in rotation.

[Perry Bacon Jr.]

DJ, dinner. Well, the problem with those is they're

[Matt Leckie]

like 45 seconds long, so I don't

[Senator Chris Van Hollen]

know if they're enough single breaks.

[Sam Seder]

That's nonsense. You see white people doing drugs that look worse than normal white people. And all white people look disgusting.

[DJ or Music Interlude Voice]

And the alpha males psycho them.

[Senator Chris Van Hollen]

Snowflake says, what?

[Sam Seder]

What, what? What? What? What? What, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what?

[Senator Chris Van Hollen]

What?

[Sam Seder]

A hell of a lot of bank. Hell of a lot of bank. A hell of a lot of bank. Okay, I'm making stupid money. Hell of a lot of bank. A hell of a lot of bank. All lives matter. Have you tried doing an impression on a college camp campus?

[Perry Bacon Jr.]

I. I think that there's no reason why reasonable people across the divide can't all agree with this.

[Sam Seder]

Psych.

[DJ or Music Interlude Voice]

And the alpha males are back, back, back, back, back, back and the Africans are black, black, black, black, black, African and the alpha males are black, black, black, black, black, black and the Africa.

[Sam Seder]

When you see Donald Trump out there,

[Perry Bacon Jr.]

doesn't a little part of you think

[Sam Seder]

that America deserves to be taken over by jihadists? Keep it at 100. Can't knock the hustle.

[Senator Chris Van Hollen]

Come on.

[Sam Seder]

Them things I do for the bigger game plan. By the way, it's my birthday. My birthday. Happy birthday to me, Jew boy. I have a thought experiment for you.

[DJ or Music Interlude Voice]

And the alpha males are back By Africa's black, black alpha males. Black black Africans back, back.

[Sam Seder]

Come on, come on, come on. Someone needs to pay the price for Blasphy around here. I am a total.