← The Majority Report with Sam Seder
The Majority Report with Sam Seder
3608 -Live From Las Vegas: Gambling Addiction, Video Game Addiction, Human Trafficking and More
02:41:38
It's Tort Tuesday on the Majority Report On today's show: Mike Johnson claims to not know anything about the $230 million payout Trump is demanding from the government over the costs from his investigations. Sam is joined by the following lawyers from...
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A
You are listening to a free version of the Majority Report. Support this show@jointhemajorityreport.com and get an extra hour of content daily.
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It is Wednesday, October 22, 2025. My name is Sam Seder. This is the five time award winning Majority Report. We are broadcasting live steps from the industrially ravaged Gowanus Canal in the heartland of America, downtown Brooklyn, usa and from the heart of an unnamed hotel in Las Vegas, Nevada. In the. What room is this?
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A
You look like you're in Christmas.
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B
You don't need to stay in the room. I'm in some, some a room of a famous artist. They actually did name this room after a famous artist, but I don't think there's any of that work here in Las Vegas, Nevada for the 2025 Mass Torts Conference. Also on the program today, Vance and Israel as Gazans recover bodies beneath the rubble. Trump expands his West Wing demolition to make way for his new banquet hall health insurance. Tsunami of price increases just about to land. It is day 22 of the government shutdown. Republicans are getting a little bit nervous about those aforementioned premiums. The question is, will Democrats hold the line against rescissions once the Republicans buckle on health care? US Continues a naval and special forces buildup off the coast of Venezuela. Trump's special counsel nominee drops out in wake of racist chats and sexual harassment accusations. Ice accidentally shoots a bystander and a U.S. marshal. Another hard day's work for our masked fascists. And Arizona Attorney General sues Mike Johnson to see Representative Graval. All this and more on today's Majority Report. Welcome, ladies and gentlemen. For those who don't, who do not have not watched the show for a long time, I'm in Las Vegas doing my annual. In fact, sometimes it's like biannual tort conference. Isn't that right, Emma?
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A
That is right. You don't need to look to the side because everyone knows we're not in the same place today.
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C
But I love your little tick.
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B
It is a total tick. It's opposite on the screen too.
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A
Hello, Sam, I am the wrong way. Hello, Sam. Dammit.
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B
And so what happens is I'm going to be talking to a series of attorneys. I don't always know exactly which guests are going to end up showing up from ones that we've talked to over the past couple of days and they are over the years, I've interviewed a lot of different attorneys here. I interviewed Rosa Parks attorney Fred Gray, the late Fred Gray who was here. I've interviewed some public interest tort lawyers today, I'm anticipating five lawyers who are going to speak to me about five different cases. One of them is going to be about sports betting, Emma and Roblox, social media addiction. This is for everybody in the office. Human trafficking and video game addiction. Matt. So I didn't want you guys in the office. This is a passive aggressive trip.
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C
Yeah, right.
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B
It's interesting. I don't know, like, why these, you know, there are still a lot of these cases that we've talked to people in the past. It's ongoing and I don't know why these cases, these wide range of cases have started to come up. Part of it is just like we're living in an era of apps and the Internet and a lot of these things are targeted towards children without really any understanding of what happens to children or what environments they're in that are maybe unsafe. And so we'll have those conversations first. Should we do for the sound, what had we decided? Should we do? Mike Johnson. Yeah. Donald Trump is claiming that he is owed $230 million by the US government because they tried to prosecute him. Reparations and emotional distress. Exactly. And here is Mike Johnson being asked about that. I don't know the details about that. I'm just read it. I didn't talk with him about that. I know that he believes he's owed that reimbursement. What I heard yesterday was if he receives it, he was going to consider giving it to charity. I mean, he doesn't, he doesn't need those proceeds. But we're for the rule of law. We're for what is just and right. And it's just absurd that. I mean, as has been noted here several times this morning, they attack him.
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D
For everything he does.
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B
It doesn't matter what it is. This whole dust up about the White House, just by way of quick review, because I'm an amateur historian, you'll understand the White House has been renovated many times over the years. You understand, I mean, it was built between 1792 and 1800. Okay. But I love the fact that he's saying like, I don't know anything about it. But what I do know about it is something that is completely implausible and will never happen. Donald Trump will not give that money to charity. I would be willing to bet every penny I own that that money will not go to charity. Even his own charities did not give money to charities. Yeah, his own charities were ways of getting stuff for himself.
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A
I mean, the legal bill thing, it's just amazing that he's trying to. He's already ripped off his supporters on this. There's been reporting throughout the 2024 race that Brennan center has this right up here. The former president has relied almost entirely on donations to his campaign and affiliated PACs to pay his lawyers to the tune of more than $100 million as of early 2024. Following his 2020 election loss, Trump received more than $250 million in donations from his supporters to fuel an election defense fund, and he split them off into PACs and entities. But the point is, is that he's already been using his supporters money to fund his legal bills. And now it's not enough for him to rip off his own people. He's got to rip everybody else off the entire American public, which kind of is symbolic in many ways.
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B
It's the Build a Ballroom foundation, exactly like the ballroom. But here's the. I mean, this is the two step here, right? I mean, like Scott Passant the other day was complaining, saying, like, you know, tariffs are not import taxes. It's not a tax, you know, going to the dmv. Is that a tax when you pay that fee? I mean, it's a fee. It's not based upon what you know. It is not imposed in the way that a tax is imposed, like relative to the price of something. If you get your. You pay sales tax at the dmv. But this is the same two step. Trump is going to say, oh, we're not using any public money to tear down part of the White House and build my incredibly gauche ball, which I imagine is probably going to have like a similar vibe to this room I'm in in this casino. He's going to take tax dollars to do it. It's just that he's gonna say, like, you're gonna give me the tax dollars and then I'm going to give it. So it's not tax dollars anymore. You're welcome. According to the Independent, the decision might come up to Todd Blanche just to remind people if this feel much safer his legal fund, Todd Blanche would be the recipient of that money because Todd Blanch at the DOJ was his former defense attorney. And so if that money does make it back to his defense fund, you know, Todd Blanche may have a reason to be. There may be some conflict of interest there slightly influences decision making. If you send a few hundred thirty million dollars. Impartial Todd.
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A
Money is just speech, you guys. We're just having conversations. Why are you so against having conversations?
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B
All right, let me just read this ad and then we're going to be talking in just a moment to Julia Gordon about a case that she is working on. Meadow Law Firm. When we started this podcast 15 years ago. Oh, Kyle is actually here. He came down, but that's irrelevant to the ad. Although it isn't, because I'm reminded at the time when I started this podcast, because it was cotton. And one of the things I was like, I want to take calls and the last thing I want to deal with is merch, because that's gonna be a huge headache. We're not gonna be able to build the thing. I don't want to be. I don't want to have to.
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D
Do.
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Bookkeeping and keep records and all that stuff. And. And then we found Shopify. Cha Ching. You got to do the Cha Ching sound maybe over back there, but Shopify is the commerce platform behind millions of businesses around the world, from household names like Magic Spoon to brands just getting started. Shopify has hundreds of ready to use templates to help you build an online store to match your brand. Whether it's beautiful, edgy, or minimalist, or even like this.
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Or non minimalist.
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Exactly. Non minimalist. Shopify is packed with AI tools to help you put together product descriptions, page headlines, and even enhance your product for photography. And best yet, Shopify helps you with managing inventory, international shipping, processing, and returns and beyond. If you're ready to sell, you're ready for Shopify. The whole thing is completely turnkey. It tracks your sales both online and in real life. You can put it on all the social media platforms. It's super easy. That's what we wanted. And if, God forbid, our merch store blows up, it is also super easy to scale it. Turn your big business idea into Cha Ching. With Shopify on your side, sign up for your $1 per month trial and start selling@shopify.com majority. Go to shopify.com majority shopify.com majority. We'll put the link in the YouTube and podcast descriptions. Okay. And now joining me as I change cameras, this is. This is the impressive stuff, right? There we go. Okay. How's that?
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E
Good morning.
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B
Good morning. How's that right there?
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A
Oh, there we go.
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B
Okay. Can you guys pull back just a little bit on that or.
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A
We're working on it.
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B
We're pulling back. Okay.
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E
I might have to adjust this down just slightly.
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B
You sound fine there.
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E
Thank you.
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B
Okay.
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F
Good morning.
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B
Good morning. So, Julia Gordon, you're from Meadow Law Firm, correct? Tell us about the. The case that you're working on.
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E
Sure. So our firm has become intimately involved in the prosecution of video gaming addiction. We've been handling these cases for about 18 months. And I've had the opportunity and the unfortunate experience of talking with thousands of parents and guardians across the country whose families have been greatly impacted by video gaming addiction. Who the children are suffering from a range of injuries from completed suicides, attempted suicides, suicidal ideation, self harm. We've got clients who are wearing diapers so they can stay on tournaments longer. They have had a complete decline in academic performance. We're talking about children who were on honor roll before being introduced to gaming. And now we are standing up to the industry to challenge some of these addictive game design elements that are included in games. These are not the games that you and I may have played growing up. These are very. There's no end. And what the gaming companies call user engagement, we call addiction.
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Okay, so like what, what do you have to establish? We can, you know, you've outlined just sort of, I guess, what are the injuries that are done to folks. What do you have to establish in terms of there being liability by the gaming companies for causing that as opposed to like maybe they're using it in the wrong way or something like that?
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E
So it's a great question. When I was first introduced to the litigation, my initial thought, and I think many people across the country will think, well, where are the parents? But in no other product liability do we put the blame on the user. It's always on the manufacturer, the producer that enters that product into the stream of commerce. So our concern is that parents and guardians have not been brought into the conversation. They've not been informed of what the risks are. And I will tell you time and time again, parents and guardians will tell me, if I had known then what I know now, I never would have introduced my child. And of course it's complicated by a variety of other factors. We had the pandemic, a lot of screens, other, you know, sort of mixing with social media. But the reality is that for the defendants that we are litigating against, these companies have put out into the world a game that continues to keep children on the game. So other games that had been, once we moved away from the cartridge based games to the cloud based gaming sometime around 2014, 2015, those games are specifically designed to keep children on for longer periods of time. And they're doing it from the privacy of their own rooms. They're doing it on laptops, they're doing it on iPads, they're doing it on phones, they're doing it on Consoles. And there is no conversation to bring parents to the table to say what? How can we make this better? These are some of the regulations. Here's a warning, right? So some of these legal theories are product liability, failure to warn, negligence. But it's really what we're looking to do is create industry wide change. We are not anti gaming. We want parents and guardians to be brought into the conversation so that they can better regulate. And also looking for some oversight from the companies themselves, putting out design elements that simply they know are going to keep children on for longer. Keeping them up at 2, 3 o' clock in the morning, for example, because that's when something is released that's very special to these children. And the difference between children, because that.
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B
Actually rings a bell, like there's going to be a release, right? Yes, coveted. I have had my son say like, yes, can I? Because at like 10 o' clock there's gonna be some new Ape mod or something that's gonna come out. And I'm like, you know, okay, but.
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E
But that's what the companies are banking on. They want you to say okay, because you are not informed.
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B
Right.
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E
And we're looking to get parents and guardians to be better educated on these different platforms and different games because these.
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B
Are specific games and gaming companies that do this. And are there some that don't?
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E
So I've coined this term gateway game. We have seen that the majority of our clients have been introduced to gaming through Minecraft, which is made by Microsoft and Mojang Studios. We also have seen Fortnite, which is made by Epic Games and Roblox, which is of course produced by Roblox. Now on some of these programs there are a variety of different types of games that kids and other users can play. But throughout all of these games, there are the same types of systematic game design elements and operant conditioning that cause the children to stay on the game. It's not that they're playing the game, it's that they stay on the game for an excessive amount of time and they then have these other injuries that I spoke of, you know, 13 year olds having to wear diapers to continue to stay in a tournament because if they leave that game, they will lose all of the progress they've made. And the reason this is so important for children is because unlike you and I, children do not have a fully developed prefrontal cortex. And that's the part of the brain that's responsible for decision making and emotional regulation. And how are these children when, for example, if the game is Taken away or they lose. They feel it in a way that you and I just can't understand.
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B
Right.
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E
So am I going to allow a company to continue to have a child, have these, you know, dopamine hit. Dopamine hit, Dopamine hit and then a withdrawal. The symptoms of withdrawal mirror symptoms of withdrawal with other substances, be it alcohol or another substance. And it's really, really scary.
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B
Do you as a plaintiff have to prove that the gaming companies had an awareness of this or an intent to create these sort of addictive elements of it?
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E
It depends on the particular claim that we're making. However, we, we firmly believe that there is sufficient evidence that not only were they aware, but they specifically were hired psychologists, neurologists and other medical professionals to help them with what they call user engagement and we call addiction.
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B
I see. And so how many plaintiffs do you have? Like, what's the status of the case at this point?
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E
Sure. So in California we have a consolidated proceeding called a JCCP that's happening in Los Angeles county in front of a great judge who's really thinking through these issues. And this is complex, this is, we're in a point where we're thinking about legal issues and thinking about how to, how to, to run up. We've got First Amendment concerns, but we're really thinking about all of those things. So that's what's going on in California for California residents. And we also in December have a petition before the judicial panel on multi district litigation, the jpml and that will be our petition to have consolidated proceeding in federal court. We've got cases that have been filed in Pennsylvania, Maine, California in federal court. And we're looking to just make sure that we have a consolidated proceeding because as you can imagine the world, the universe of potential plaintiffs is quite large. And we really do want to make sure that this is handled appropriately and that it's tailored and that we're really helping to create that industry wide change. And of course thinking about financial compensation for our clients because some of our clients are going to be, they've been irreparably harmed and they will not be able to get what they need without the financial compensation to have those services to treat those injuries.
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B
And the defendants are those three entities that you mentioned in terms of the games?
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E
That's correct. Those are the three that our firm is litigating against.
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B
And are the plaintiff pools set or is. I mean, I would imagine, knock on wood, my son is not quite there with that stuff. Although it's, you know, it's pretty, I limit it, as it were. But it's a little more distressing to hear these things.
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A
Absolutely.
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B
How do people become plaintiffs?
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E
Well, we do have a certain set of criteria. If you think that your child is a candidate or you have seen some of these withdrawal symptoms or anything that I'm speaking about resonates, you can contact our firm at VGA stands for Video Gaming Addiction vgaadowlawfirm.com and we'll be happy to reach out and have a conversation with you about whether or not the case qualifies with our criteria. We are only accepting minors at this time, so nobody over the age of 18. And we are also have very strict criteria about some of the injuries. But this is a spectrum. Somebody who may be starting out and dabbling and isn't quite addicted yet that can flip on a dime. So we really need to make sure that we're tracking these kids and being aware of these injuries.
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B
And what, what things could the industry do that would in. I mean, because there obviously has to be things that they could do. Otherwise, you don't, you can't. What could they do that would change this?
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E
There are a number of components that we're looking for to have the entire industry implement and the technology exists. Age verification at signup, limiting certain components of the addictive game design. Loot boxes are a perfect example. This is an opportunity. It's almost like sending a kid to Las Vegas but, you know, completely unregulated. And that dopamine hit, dopamine hit, dopamine hit, and then a withdrawal when you, you know, somebody buys something in the game to give them an alleged, you know, leg up in the game. But of course, that's not what's going to actually happen. And then the children really do suffer the consequences. And I think about this, of course, for on behalf of all of our clients who are suffering from this and their families. But I also think about this from. On a macro level. I am very concerned as a mother and as a plaintiff's lawyer who's focused on consumer rights and consumer protection. I am very worried about this next generation coupled with all the other components of screen time and screens in schools. I'm very worried about it because this is the next generation of military servicemen, the next generation of worker. If they can't get out of bed, if they can't leave their homes to have jobs, what's going to happen? So some of the things that we're looking for, for the gaming industry to change would be removing the addictive game designs. And we know the technology exists because the FDA has already approved video gaming as a therapy for ADHD and other neurodivergent diagnoses because it doesn't have the addictive game elements. So the technology exists, but it's not as lucrative for those companies.
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B
I see. So we know that non addictive games exist because they're literally licensed.
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E
Correct.
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F
And approved by the fda.
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B
And approved by the fda. Where is the FTC in this? Has the FTC is like looked around because it's, I mean, I know where it is today, right? It's, it's nowhere. But was the FTC looking at this?
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E
Well, I can't speak because I wasn't in that, in that agency. But what I can say is I do think we are experiencing a seismic shift in the discourse and I'm really excited to see that people are paying attention to it. There's a great New Yorker article about Roblox a few weeks ago and it's really important that, that everybody is being brought into the conversation because this is not just about my clients. This is about the children in this country who are, who potentially could be completely, irreparably harmed and never be able to fully function in society.
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B
Last question, because I'm seeing this on the im. Do you, have you come across any claim that developers are making their games bigger than they need be to squeeze out other games on the platform? So in other words, I mean, I know this has been an issue with, with my son too is said like the, the, the game console he had only has room for, you know, one game because it's, you know, a junior type of situation has only room for one game. And so he tends to play, he'll play that game or, you know, he'll stay on that game more. Is that, have you come across that?
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E
We certainly. When I talked earlier about the gateway games, as I call them, that's not where it stops, right? Once they start by playing Minecraft, Roblox, Fortnite, it continues on. And then there's Call of Duty and World of Warcraft. Again, I am not anti gaming, but I am anti addictive game design. And it is certainly a part of our litigation to talk about what programs and what games children have access to and some of the things that these companies did. And they knew that it was going to be a problem, they did it anyway.
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B
Julia Gordon, thanks so much for your time today. Really appreciate it.
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F
Thank you.
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E
Thank you for having me.
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B
All right, we've got another guest is going to be joining me right now. Alicia, one second, will be there Matt, I hope you're. No, no, come on in. Matt, I hope you're okay back in the studio. Yep, we're good. No, I just meant in terms of like the, the gaming stuff. Okay. He didn't hear it. He was gaming. I don't even like Roblox. Joining me now, Alicia Tappan. She is from Survivor Led Solutions. Is that right? Tell us just a little bit about Survivor Led Solutions.
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A
Sure.
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F
There is a lot of emphasis and effort put into crisis intervention with human trafficking efforts. So we want to rescue, say the victims. However, not a lot of attention is put into the long term care. And once survivors come out of being trafficked and they maybe go through a program for a year, they're sort of left with this just figure it out, you're supposed to be healed mentality from society. And the truth is they're going to have lots of triggers and lots of hurdles to jump over as they continue on through life. And so we wanted to do that long term care gap and specifically we wanted to focus on leadership and professional development because a lot of survivors, once they get healing, they want to share their story, they want to train, they want to educate, and that's where we come in. So we provide them with all the tools that they would need to get on their own and create maybe their own consulting firm or if they desire to open a bakery, we're going to support them there too.
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B
And so let's just start with what we mean by when we say trafficking. It's obviously in the news quite a bit with the Epstein files and Ghislaine Maxwell. Trafficking can mean a lot of different things, I guess, but can you give us a sense of what that is?
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F
That's my favorite question to ask. Especially tomorrow at this mass torts conference. I'm going to ask that. Who can define it? A lot of people can't. But it's the illegal transport or harboring of a human for the sake of goods or services. So that is a very ambiguous, you know, definition. I like to call it the exploitation of vulnerabilities. This could be labor. This could be like you were just talking about online video games. There's a lot of sextortion that happens online. It could be in the sense of sex trafficking where it's actual physical acts, but it's also involuntary domestic servitude, meaning live in nannies. Or it could be debt bondage. You've just had generations of money that's been owed back to a, you know, corrupt business. Or it could be child soldiers. And though we see that a lot in, you know, third world countries and militias in the jungle somewhere. You have to start to wonder to what level do we really define a child? If the brain doesn't fully develop until we're 25. So there's a lot of different moving pieces to that. And I'm happy to answer any questions about it.
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B
Yeah. Are the impacts of the various, like how universal are the impacts? I mean, so if you have different types of trafficking, I would imagine survivors of trafficking have different sets of problems when they come out of that situation.
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F
But they're all sort of the same. Right. So if you look at exploitation of vulnerabilities, it's people, so a lot of it's mental health. But then there's also that sense of debt. Traffickers will pull out credit cards in their victims names, buy houses, buy cars, so there's that. Then you also have a lot of victims are arrested for petty crimes or taking charges. So they have criminal records that they have to overcome. They always have to start over with food, water, shelter and that basic needs. But once you get to the point where they've got some housing, maybe get their record expunged, maybe have a stable job, get their family back, then they have all of this resiliency that kept them alive and they need to put it into something. And they don't really typically handle 9 to 5 jobs very well because they're artistic and they're creative, but also because that trauma exists. So social anxiety, ptsd, bipolar, I mean, you can name it. Anything that has anxiety or depression in its diagnosis, they have it.
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B
And I would imagine too that in some instances that's pre existing which made them a more vulnerable target.
- [31:40]
F
It could be one. One scale that we use is the adverse childhood experiences, the ACEs. And what that looks like is there's 10 different characteristics of a person that they experienced trauma in their home before they were 18. So these could be directly affected them like physical abuse, sexual abuse, neglect.
- [32:02]
C
Right.
- [32:02]
F
But it could also be indirectly happening to them. Their parents are in a domestic violence relationship, there is an incarcerated parent, there's drugs in the house. So yes, it is a precursor in that regard. But like in my situation, I didn't have any of those issues. I didn't even. I was a 0 out of 10 on the ACE score. And you can still be trafficked.
- [32:22]
B
Can you tell us your story? Would you?
- [32:24]
F
Okay, here's the small version. I wrote a book called Brave Girl Diaries and it starts telling my story in there too. But I grew up in a small Town in Michigan and I had both parents at home. I had everything taken care of, all my needs were met. I was a straight A student on my way to take an academic scholarship to Michigan State. And my junior year I was brought over by my best friend to an after school sort of celebration for the male track team. They just to wanted states. It was a big deal and we're there totally by kind of wrong place at the wrong time for me. But it was all very orchestrated and the coach, the male track coach, he had told parents and faculty, you know, we had a great season, thanks for coming. You know, we had already eaten dinner and I'll kick the kids out around 10 o' clock and thanks for you know, great season. And much like a small town anywhere, you know, you have your sort of get togethers at somebody's house, just like a youth group or boy scouts and we're there, everybody leaves. And he brings us down into his home and into a finished basement. And there's about 12 of us, sophomore through seniors who are there. And he says, and this is like kind of one of my core memories and this is why I know it's very premeditated. He says, I want you to watch this movie, but I don't want to be responsible for pushing play. And the funny kid of the group jumps up and he like pushes play. Now this is a vcr, vhs. Do you remember the slogan? What like Blockbuster used to tell us what to do with our videos before.
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B
We be kind rewind.
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A
Right.
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F
If you were born in the 1900s, you know that slogan. So that's how intentional it was. It was already rewound. So when the funny kid pushes play now we're exposed to homemade porn by two of our friends. And I actually sat next to the girl in math class, so I knew her well. And after the two and a half minute porn that they had created, we all just sort of sat in shock. Kind of like your face right now, just like what was that? And every trafficking situation will start like that. It'll have some sort of exposure to sexual content to see what the victim will do. If that victim is very confident and knows has been taught like this is inappropriate and you know, we don't do that and get up and leave. Which you hope you would teach your kids, but we don't.
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B
It's also hard to sort of like anticipate that you wouldn't at a coach's house.
- [34:49]
F
Especially not one that was loved and funny, charismatic, took care of the kids, bought them their jerseys or gave them Rides or, you know, he did all this recruiting and grooming with these kids. That's what that is. It's this love bombing, gift giving. I will be your best friend and I will take care of you. He had convinced parents to open bank accounts and funnel money in behind the scenes from fake Rolex watches that he had gotten on a black market and brought to town and had the kids sell. He had built an entire regime of kids and parents. So when we're in this situation that I had no idea about, now all of a sudden I'm here and I don't know what to do because we were taught stranger danger. Say no to drugs, and if you have sex, you're going to get pregnant and die. Like, you know, very fear based, abstinence only. And. And so nobody knew what to do. But he did, right? The movie was over. And he turns down the lights, he turns up the music, and he opens his bar. And now it's a party. And it was clear that other kids had been there before. I didn't know what to do. So I look at my friend and she's like, we'll leave in just a minute. I was like, yeah, that's really weird. Like, I don't want to hang out here. And she goes, just go play, you know, in video games, right? Like Mario Kart, it'll be fine. And so I hung out with my friend who I knew, and you know, we're just sitting, talking, we play some Mario Kart and I, I know that I don't drink, I don't do drugs, I have a job, I have a car, right? I am the girl who should know better. I'm the poster child for like the all American, right? And I'm sitting over here just doing nothing. And the next memory I have is my head hitting the back of a hot tub. And now I'm being raped by two of my friends. And the coach is above it on a balcony recording it with his camcorder. And I panic and I jump out of the hot tub and I look for my clothes. I can't find anything. Next I'm met with the next thing that happens. There's usually force, fraud or coercion. In trafficking cases, right? Force is pretty obvious. Somebody tells you you can't do anything, they make you do something, right? Fraud is somebody's lying. And then coercion is master manipulation. So I get met with the coach and the linebacker of our football team who says, you're too drunk to drive, you can't go anywhere. That's Force. You can't go anywhere. And so I guess I pass out.
- [36:59]
A
I don't.
- [37:00]
E
I don't really know.
- [37:00]
F
I can't tell you.
- [37:01]
B
So you were. It sounds like you were drugged with something like a roofie or something like that.
- [37:07]
F
And that's what he did. He made his own GHB drug, and he put it in everybody's drinks. It didn't matter what you were drinking, because it's colorless, odorless, and tasteless. So I wake up in this basement the next day under a coffee table with my stuff neatly packed on top of it. And I run out the back door because I'm too afraid to go out the front door that I came in the night before. And I have a choice to make. I go to my best friend's house and try to explain why I'm there at 8am and didn't spend the night. I go to my. My own home and try to do the same thing. Or I go to work, because that's where I'm supposed to be in the next hour. And that's what all victims do. We process this sort of. I don't understand it. As if everything is normal and we go through the motions just because we don't want to get out of line or we don't want to add to it and we needed to figure out what happened. So I get to work, and my manager, who's a few years older than me, I say to her, hey, you know, I think I had sex with two guys in one night. Like, what does that mean? And she's like, well, you might as well get used to being called a slut, because that's all you'll ever be known as. So shaming the victim happens right away.
- [38:09]
A
We.
- [38:10]
F
I can tell you, victims tell. They tell several times, but no one's listening. Right? They're expecting. Or they're hearing it in a different way, or we show it in maladaptive behavior so it doesn't look like we're a victim. They. And so I do my job. I get home, I call my best friend. Hey, you left me at that party. I think I was raped. Like, I use the words. Well, rape's a really strong word, Alicia. You don't want to go around accusing anybody, do you? These guys have full ride scholarships in Michigan and Michigan State. Do you want to ruin their life over something you're not really sure of? Right. So she had. This is like a hierarchy. Human trafficking operates in a very family dynamic with, like, the trafficker being the coach. Then my best Friend was what we call the bottom. She was the recruiter. And then there's this pecking order of, like, how are you going to comply? There's a quota. You have to make certain amount of money. And if you can't make money, right, you have to do other things. So selling drugs is usually pretty quickly up there. The difference between drugs and a body, right? You run out of drugs in one night, you have to go find more. You can use your body over and over and over again. And this can cost different levels, right? We cut a. Let's just say an ounce of weed. We know we're going to have to pay $1,000. We can do 10 bags of $10 or whatever, you know, $100. Sorry. And here, you can make it different, right? So what's important about human trafficking is not the sex act. It's the person who buys it. The buyer's secret that they keep is how valuable the sex act is. So if I was going to say I give a blowjob to Joe Schmo, who doesn't have any credibility in community, I don't have to charge him very much and probably won't pay very much. But if I go to, say, the.
- [39:51]
B
Sheriff'S office or I pick somebody for your discretion.
- [39:55]
F
Exactly. That's exactly how it goes. So he already had so many players a part of this, this ring. And just because I got to walk away from his house the next morning doesn't mean it was over. That was my initiation. Now he's calling and saying, hey, you need to come to this graduation party. You know, this guy's gonna come pick you up, they're gonna take you out, buy what you want, then you're gonna show up, right? And if you don't, we will tell your parents, we'll show the video to whoever. They slash my tires. They put dog poop on my windshield. I tried to say no, and it didn't matter. You were getting picked up. And then people always ask, well, what about your parents? Well, my mom thought I was dating the cool kids that just graduated high school, right? I wasn't known to date. I didn't have boyfriends. I was an academic. So, you know, she's like, you need to go. You need to go have fun. No, Mom, I don't want to go. Like, I really don't want to go. Oh, just, you know, have a good time.
- [40:50]
B
Couldn't. You were afraid of telling your parents.
- [40:54]
F
We don't know what was going to happen. The fear that they use, that master manipulation, is it's a stronghold. It's why Stockholm syndrome exists. People fall in love with their abusers, Right? It's the idea of you. Everything in your life will be ruined. Right? I'll tell people what you did, and I'll get that scholarship revoked. And I believed him. His mom was a professor at the University of Michigan. You know, like, he used every bit of his power to manipulate and control you.
- [41:24]
B
Did these people ever. Were they ever brought to justice?
- [41:27]
F
Would you like a happy ending?
- [41:31]
B
Like a moderate one? Was there any?
- [41:34]
F
I don't know if there's actually justice, really, but this is what happened. We had a mandated reporter. He was the athletic director in my high school. He started the investigation. He figured out something was wrong with me. They pulled me down to the office. 17 written testimonies.
- [41:51]
B
How did that investigation start?
- [41:54]
F
It started with the athletic director asking me, you know, hey, Alicia, I can tell something's wrong. What happened to you? That's the most crucial question you can ask somebody when you sense something's wrong. It's kind of accusatory and it's not assumptive. So I told him, I don't know. I think I was raped last summer. Why? I said, just like that, because no one cared. Like, I was being bullied there. I mean, it was mass destruction to keep me quiet.
- [42:18]
B
And so you're now what, a senior?
- [42:20]
F
Senior.
- [42:20]
B
In high school, they asked you in. A senior. It happened over the course of the end of the junior.
- [42:25]
F
Yeah. So basically from June till September, I went to probably 50 parties, including college parties. And I was raped. I can't even tell you how many times. And just drugged. Just drugged. You know, I thought when you drank, you were supposed to black out. Like, that's how I understood alcohol. So now school's starting and I'm suicidal, right? I've attempted three times. Can't die. I'm addicted to drugs. I'm drinking every day, cutting my hair, cutting myself, like. And people were like, you're just a hormonal teenager. And like, authorities at my school, who were my advisors for, like, National Honor Society. I was president. We don't want you in our club. We don't like your reputation. We're gonna ask you to step down. That's why I got the phone calls. So by the time Christmas was coming, I was. I was trying to get suspended, I was trying to get expelled. I didn't care, you know? And that's when he pulled me aside and said, there's something wrong. And so I gave it to him, you know, I couldn't really explain anything. And he was like, well, that's not what I thought you were gonna say. And so then he started the investigation. He called our local law enforcement, and.
- [43:27]
B
He'S a mandatory reporter in. That statute requires certain people. Like, I know in the context of New York, like, if you're ems, you must report situations that could be problematic, right?
- [43:43]
F
So I'm from Florida.
- [43:45]
A
It's.
- [43:45]
F
It is a required. Anybody over the age of 18, if you suspect or witness abuse, you must report it to the authorities. Michigan was the same, so that's where I was from. And that investigation got started. We found out there were 33 other victims just like me. He had done it at a school before mine. The whole time he was at my school, quit the summer that he did it to me, moved to a new school, and started all over again. There was money laundering. There were so many different types of exploitation, and they needed a credible witness testimony to be able to push this thing. And they were using me. They wanted mine. I didn't have a lot to offer them because I didn't know about everything else. Right. I kind of came at the tail end of his excursion, if you will. And so they. They rallied, and they. My mom kind of pulled me aside, and she's like, if not you, then who? Right? Like, who's gonna stop this guy? He's been doing it forever. And I think that planted a seed. I don't know if it was really empowering at the time, but we push forward, and I push back because I want to go to college. Like, this athletic director, like, told me, like, that you're going to college. And he helped me apply and do all these things. I got accepted into the University of west Florida. So 1200 miles away, never been there. And I went there and agreement with my parents that I would also go to court. So I had to go back and forth for my first year of college. And I lived a double life. You know, no one in Florida knew where I was going, and no one in Michigan really understood where I would leave to. It was very hard, you know, being on the prosecution side, because the defense attorney kind of came up to me one time in court and was like, well, if you can't really remember, then how do we know you didn't rape them? And I think, to be honest, that was the moment where I was like, these guys were victims too, right? These teenagers. We could only go after the one moment because we only had enough evidence for the night at his house. He had gotten rid of the tape. We were Going to use the tapes of the other victims. But all those other victims bailed, all 33 of them. It was just me versus my hometown school district. I had to go after the whole system because the president of the board of education had been at some of these parties. Our SRO officer had been at some of these parties. People in authority who are supposed to be protecting kids were exploiting kids. But all I could do was use what we had with what I had, what I knew, and it was very difficult. Plus, at this time, we didn't have a lot of laws around human trafficking. We had the TPVA, which started in 2000, to protect and say there are victims of human trafficking. We didn't have to prove force, fraud, or coercion because I was under 18. So really, we just had to say. I just had to say I was raped, and there was money involved, and there was, you know, some sort of exchange, and we win. The coach gets seven years in prison. Both of my two rapists in the hot tub got five years of registered sex offenders. They all served their time before I even understood what happened. And while the coach was in prison, he got a law degree, became the executive of an estate. The year after he got out, embezzled $140,000 in four months, went back in front of the judge we had seven years earlier. And I actually have a newspaper article that says if it wasn't for the girl in the hot tub, we wouldn't know how evil this man was. And now he's in prison for the rest of his life.
- [47:07]
D
Wow.
- [47:08]
F
So it's. It's an incredible tale. Just that part of my life, you know, that's crazy.
- [47:16]
B
It's. I mean, I'm glad there was some measure of justice, Obviously, like, the trauma that you go through, I imagine lasts a lot longer than that process. And I think it's really. People don't understand how possibly susceptible anybody could be to this. And so how common is that type of traffic? I mean, it just seems nuts to me that this coach was able to go from school to school, presumably doing the same thing, and each time. And then he leaves before essentially, like, you know, things go sideways for him.
- [48:04]
F
Yeah, he was. He was crafty. See, that's the thing about trafficking is that they are so narcissistic. And because they're narcissistic, they're also right, they're funny, they're charismatic. They play the victim. And so he was able to create these reputations of. But being like a father to the fatherless, like, he Prayed after the young boys, built them up, made them feel a certain way, and then he created a list of like, who they wanted to go have sex with before they went to college. And that's who was brought in to these parties. It was all very premeditated. So my type of trafficking is actually very prevalent. It's not the most, but when we think about it, the way the media portrays it, the way the movies are showing us, is that it's like some young kids who get lured into a trap that get taken to a third world country. And that's not what's happening in America. In fact, more trafficking now happens online. And you've never actually met them. The person who manipulates you and grooms you and makes you feel like you're the most beautiful thing that ever happened to them. And then they exploit you and punish you and make a lot of money off of your pictures. So it's happening even more rapidly than ever before. And so we used to think like prostitution. Well, when you think of prostitution, it's a woman on the street on a corner, right. But it really happens in private parties, right. It happens where. One thing I'm a part of right now is the FIFA soccer tournament is coming to America. And we are as a field trying to put all these prevention measures in place. A lot of education because wherever there's a lot of people coming to one place, there's always going to be trafficking. And it's a sad real situation. But again, it goes back to what are you vulnerable around? Kids are kids. So is our age, pure and simple. Doesn't have to be traumatic.
- [50:01]
B
I have to one, from a legal standpoint, like there's no big, there's no big mass tort over this unless it's a function. I mean, like, how could you. How could we, you know, you. I could see the 30 victims or 30 some odd victims in your situation suing. But it really, I mean, I've spoken to people where there was knowledge that in some trafficking cases that there were certain hotels and hotel chains that sort of look the other way when it's quite clear this is going on. And I. And what's actionable in those situations makes sense. Are there, and I presume there are maybe sites that are. Make people more vulnerable to this type of thing. Like where are the. Where are the more actionable things to inhibit the opportunities for traffickers across.
- [51:01]
F
I'm so glad you asked the question. There's nothing preventative. Everything is reactive. However, you can pretty much ask any teenage girl if anybody has ever asked for a nude picture of them. And they will tell you, yes, it's one out of seven. So here's the reality. There's no. Because there isn't a law around prevention. There is one internationally. It's called Carli's Law. And it took. If we're going to go out and teach. Let me just say it like this. If we're going to go out and teach, all these red flags. Hey, if you see something, say something. If you see these things happening, report it. Law enforcement can't do anything with that report unless a crime has been committed.
- [51:39]
B
Right?
- [51:40]
F
Why are we waiting for that? So what I would love to see is let's take that data of all those people who've been asked, have you ever been asked for a nude picture? What were their demographics? What games were they on? Where did they meet this person? And then we can go after sites, there's tons of sites. You know, there's still retribution happening from Backpage there. Skip the Game is another one. You know, there's so many and they pop up every day. But that's all reactive. We have to go back to preventative, true, primary prevention. If this person has been given isolated compliments, meaning, you're the most beautiful girl I've ever seen. There's nobody else like you. Your parents won't understand me. You know, anything that makes them feel separate from their peer group. And then if they're showered in some sort of gift, whether it's somebody sending them extra skins on a video game or is getting them Bitcoin or buying them cell phones or whatever it is, those two things right there for me are automatic red flags that they're being groomed because it's so consistent. Like, there is a. Literally a book teaching people how to traffic people, and it's called Public or Free Speech, right on Amazon. Like it's under a ploy of something else. And they're teaching people, people how to manipulate people to get them to do things and then break them and isolate them and torment them and harass them, right? Until they do what they are told to do.
- [53:04]
B
I mean, this, what you're describing also could. Could easily be individuals in an abusive relationship as well. I mean, it's. It's just one is more of like an enterprise, right? Do you feel like you. I mean, what's interesting for. I mean, one of the things I should say that, that I find fascinating by your story is it gives an insight into sort of like, obviously the Epstein stuff is in the news quite a bit And I think it's sort of hard for people to wrap their head around me. Alan Dershowitz had said about one of Epstein's victims that they were a prostitute. And they have no. I mean, and as you're describing this, it's like it's someone who is being trafficked and the idea that they're out there sort of like, you know.
- [53:56]
D
It'S.
- [53:56]
B
Grotesque for someone like that to say that. Just sort of, I think in a vacuum. But within this context, if one has even a vague understanding of what trafficking is involved, it's just an absurd thing. Do you feel like you have a better insight into a. What may have gone on or has gone on? I would imagine.
- [54:16]
F
I mean, here's the reality, if I'm one of 33 victims, that a coach had somebody who had money and all this extra could easily have thousands. You know, let's talk about the Diddy case, for example. You know, his girlfriend comes in and talks about how she was made to walk home with no shoes on or like she wasn't allowed to eat at certain places. That's control, right? And it is modern day slavery because of those types of punishments that they're doing. You as a trafficker, you own that person, and if you try to leave, they will literally do everything in their power and kill you if they feel like it.
- [54:53]
C
Right.
- [54:54]
F
So Epstein, in the same way, you know, if you understand how the first victim was recruited, it was the simple job posting. Massage needed.
- [55:04]
C
Right.
- [55:05]
F
Massage therapist needed. No experience necessary. $200. And that is one of the biggest ploys that they're using right now to get kids to come in, especially that 18, 19 year old who's looking for, you know, positions after college kind of thing or high school. And so that first victim called the number, said, you know, tell me more. And they're like, oh, well, we'll show you. You know, just come. And so they lavishly escort her from, you know, Miami out to the island on this great boat, right into this man. You'll just be doing this. Here's the room. It's very simple. You'll do this. You'll massage, you know, Mr. Jeffrey, you'll collect your money and you'll be on your way. And then she goes through the whole process, takes the job, does the massage, finds out she has to also give him, you know, sexual favors. And she takes the money. She feels awful. But they call her back and they say, Mr. Jeffrey would like his massage.
- [55:59]
A
Right?
- [55:59]
F
And she's like, I don't want to do it. It well, how about this? If you can find somebody else who will want to do it, we'll pay you and her. Now, this girl became a bottom, a recruiter within a day. And if she didn't, there were going to be consequences. So it was easier to find other people to do it. And that's how so many. It just multiplies.
- [56:20]
B
So there's also. And there's a. There's an implicit blackmail associated with. Once you've done it. Once you're blackmailed.
- [56:26]
F
Yes. Your reputation is going to be ruined.
- [56:29]
D
Yeah.
- [56:29]
F
No matter what your credibility is. And so it's easy. That's why it's hidden in plain sight. It's happening right in front of us. And that case, you know, I don't know if we'll ever really get the truth of, you know, what's the list? I mean, we can keep pounding on the door for it, but at the end of the day, the people that we're asking are probably on that list. So the idea is understanding again, where the money comes from. It's always about following the money. And human trafficking, it has nothing to do with sex or labor. Right. It has everything to do with that discretionary value and who's got it. And so anyway, I don't know what the end looks like.
- [57:05]
B
Okay, last. Last question. Is there a profile of the people who do. Who run these type of, like, trafficking rings? I mean, I can, you know, like the business person who runs a trafficking ring because they're bringing in workers from China and they're paying them sub, you know, minimum, obviously sub, minimum wage and housing them in horrible housing. These people have nowhere to go. And like, you know, they're working in restaurants or they're working in. Obviously, I think you have to be a sociopath on some level.
- [57:54]
A
Yes.
- [57:54]
B
To commit any type of crime. But in the context of, like, what the coach is doing, like, there. There is. I mean, but it seems like sociopathy plus.
- [58:05]
F
Yes.
- [58:06]
B
Right. I mean, there's. There's a. There. You know, there's. It seems to me you could find other more lessons, sort of twisted ways without having to ruin so many lives of getting money. I mean, he went on to embezzle. You know, that is like.
- [58:26]
F
I mean. Okay. Right. And. But what's worse is that that $140,000 got him more time in prison than what he did to me.
- [58:33]
B
It's absurd.
- [58:34]
C
Right.
- [58:34]
F
So, okay, sociopath. Absolutely. There's also.
- [58:38]
C
I.
- [58:39]
F
And I'm so. I'm getting my PhD in forensic psychology right now. I'm very Interested in the mind of the trafficker profile? No, because anybody. Right, like, sociopath doesn't discriminate either, right. There's not a race, there's not a gender, but there is this part of the brain where they are completely numb to emotions. They don't have, like the empathy piece, right? So they don't really see people as human beings. They see them as objects. So that's another thing, right? Objects that they can control, objects that they can manipulate and make them do things and they can make a lot of money off of. So they're a product. So like, for example, there was a pretty big case in South Carolina where this construction company brought in, you know, people who were actually had documented visas. But the thing that they did when they brought them over on their work visa was that they collected the visas and put them in a safe in that person's, the foreman's, you know, safe. So if those workers wanted to go ask for help or get help or anything, how are they going to prove that they are here illegally?
- [59:47]
B
Right, right.
- [59:48]
F
And that was part of a contract that they had like, signed because they didn't really understand it. They thought it was safety. Now they realize it's manipulation. So construction is a big one. And then the other thing is that they're buying things with this money laundering piece, right? So a lot of it could be the wages that they don't really have to pay this money that they're getting because they're creating a product they'll go back and they'll buy, like, let's just say a bulldozer, right? Like they're gonna wash the money. And so money laundering is like such a huge piece of trafficking, but there's not enough, you know, law enforcement time, paperwork, you know, meant to sort of help navigate that piece so it gets brushed under the rug because they're just like, whatever. So they get away with it. So the sociopath piece is like, they don't even. They don't even see it as a problem. You know, my coach, literally, I have it documented, Sam. I made one mistake one night and I was a mentor for those kids. Now this is going to ruin the rest of my life. That's he. It's in my court file. That's what he said. That's what he believed. Right? So anyway, they.
- [60:57]
A
They just.
- [60:58]
F
They don't have a sense of compassion or empathy. They don't. They don't see that. So when you start seeing people who like, you know, really are sort of. They just gaslight your feelings don't matter. Right. That's a pretty good indicator that they're capable of harder things.
- [61:14]
B
Well, it's a crazy and disturbing story. I really appreciate you sharing it with us, Alicia. And we'll put a link to Survivor led Solutions, I imagine provides resources for parents for kids, young adults, and good to, good to check out. Beware. And then, you know, parents listen to your kids. I mean, not all kids have the that opportunity where their parents would be sensitive to these things and feel comfortable telling them in this situation.
- [61:51]
F
But we are available nationwide, so that's the best thing is that we have partners all over and we really want to engage people to have prevention measures in place so that we don't always have to keep rescuing the victim.
- [62:04]
D
Right.
- [62:05]
F
But thank you.
- [62:06]
B
Well, thank you very much. I really appreciate it.
- [62:08]
F
Have a good one.
- [62:11]
B
Okay, we've got a little bit of time before the next interview. Let's bring Emma back in. We do.
- [62:25]
A
Okay.
- [62:26]
B
Okay, Let me switch my camera now for a moment.
- [62:31]
A
Great interview. Well, center you.
- [62:36]
B
Where did I go? We got it.
- [62:38]
D
Okay, There.
- [62:40]
A
There you are.
- [62:41]
B
Yeah, that was. That is a just incredibly disturbing story. And I mean, you know, again, I hate to bring everything back to Epstein, but it gives you an insight into, like, how these things can happen. And I think people don't fully appreciate the. The vulnerability that people have. I mean, about. If a coach can do this in a small town, what do you think a billionaire that has connections to, you know, JP Morgan Chase can do? Exactly. And in terms of, like, you know, the coach involving, like, all of the half the town's officials, it sounds like in this, in some way, I mean.
- [63:24]
A
It'S similar to Epstein in that, like, he, you know, was very cozy with the Palm beach police and he would recruit with Ghislaine Maxwell, girl from. From West Palm.
- [63:37]
B
Yep. I'm going to switch out a chair here. Hold on one second. But go ahead, continue.
- [63:42]
A
But yeah, I'll just for the audience, like, he would target girls in West Palm, which is a much less affluent area than actually like the elite area of Palm beach, specifically because he knew that the hundreds of dollars that he was using to basically kind of create this abusive pedophilic pyramid scheme, more bang for your buck and also more, less likely if they come from homes that are, you know, broken in some way to have the support system. It's just we can't underestimate how predatory they are on every level.
- [64:20]
B
Anton Lazzaro, a GOP operative in Minnesota who was one of the sources for the Ilhan smear about her brother that Tucker Carlson ran with, he's in jail now because he basically groomed young women at University of St. Thomas, particularly one that was basically recruiting other young girls for him. And it was a sort of like Venmo type sex trafficking situation. And, and, and you know, that point in terms of like the vulnerability of, you know, what kind of situation people have to be in to be subject to this. You know, here's someone who had none of what we would, I think many people certainly, I think, you know, I have this bias of like the assumption of there's a pre existing vulnerability that is taken advantage of. And really what this woman described to us was just its youth. It's youth. And in some instances just naiveted can be far more poignant I think than we anticipate or really understand. And I think that's a big, you know, takeaway from, from that interview from for me anyways, is just sort of, but you know, much of what she talks about is like you find in abusive relationships how, you know, people get into abusive relationships all the time and you wonder how is it possible that you got yourself in this situation and the trafficking that she's talking about just feels like an abusive relationship but like an enterprise mode and just crazy. In a bit we're going to be talking to Emmy Palos from Levin Papantonio.
- [66:32]
D
Firm.
- [66:35]
B
About social media addiction and then Roblox. We're doing the full protect your kids show today. Let me see where we're at. I think we have a couple of minutes but is there a clip you want to play?
- [66:54]
A
I think we should play maybe one, you know, we should talk about New York City, ICE being here, if you're, if you're cool with that.
- [67:01]
B
Yeah, I notice I'm out of town for a second and here they come. But I'm. Yeah, let's look at this. This is, it's going to be interesting. We've been saying this for a while. They're obviously going to come to New York City and the, the difference between an LA and even a Chicago and New York is the density. There's not, there's no, there's no places in New York where you're going to be able to roll up on people without there being a lot of people around. And this is a good example of it set the stage here.
- [67:44]
C
Emma.
- [67:45]
A
Yeah. So we got word yesterday that ICE agents raided Canal street and this is very much likely based on the fact that there was a TPUSA right wing Internet personality named Savannah Hernandez who over the weekend had two Separate posts where she basically tagged ICE and told them to clean up the area. And it seems like within 48 hours, at the very least, ICE responded to it. We can play what happened yesterday and then if you'd like, which, see how do you think the sequencing makes sense, Sam? Okay, the right wing personality first in chronological order.
- [68:27]
B
Yeah, let's do the chronological order.
- [68:29]
A
Yeah, because so this is her, this, this woman, Savannah Hernandez, you know, turning Points usa. And she had posted this over the weekend. And it's like, it seems like this is how ICE and DHS is operating, is if you have a right wing online spectacle or attention drawn to it, they will respond to you. And she got what she wanted. This is Savannah Hernandez in New York City.
- [68:56]
F
And okay, my friends, I was just.
- [68:58]
B
Driving down the street. I, I was Ubering and I saw this huge market of African migrants selling.
- [69:05]
C
All of these bags along this sidewalk.
- [69:07]
E
The sidewalk was actually completely full of people.
- [69:09]
B
So I was like, okay, pull over, let me see what's going on. Now I'm walking along this street and.
- [69:14]
F
The entire sidewalk was completely packed with people buying these Louis Vuitton bags, buying these YSL bags.
- [69:22]
E
Obviously, all of them are knockoffs that.
- [69:25]
B
Spoke to some of the migrants. They were telling me they're all from Senegal. And as I'm walking around, they all.
- [69:30]
F
Start grabbing their bags very quickly again.
- [69:33]
B
This entire block was filled with all of these bags and they picked them all up very quickly.
- [69:38]
F
Within two minutes, they all started jumping.
- [69:40]
B
In vehicles, running away. I was speaking to one of the migrants and he ended up telling me whatever that.
- [69:45]
A
So you can see that she's breaking news here. They sell counterfeit bags on Canal Street. I don't know if you've ever heard this.
- [69:54]
B
Is she from New York?
- [69:56]
D
No.
- [69:57]
B
Okay, shocker. That would make sense. I mean, this has been going on for, I mean, I, I can attest to it being going on for at least 30, 40 years.
- [70:11]
A
It was fork found in kitchen mode here. Wow. What investigative journalism. She's really brave. I hope she's wearing a bulletproof vest because she's on the, the scary streets of New York City surrounded by people from Senegal.
- [70:23]
B
So she calls ICE to do this. Now, I know, you know, for a long time there's been like there, you know, in a lot of the stories, I don't know if it's still the case, but I didn't remember 20, 30 years ago. I knew somebody who, when she was trying to get her acting career going, one of the jobs she had was to go into some of these Places on Canal street. See the really expensive high end knockoffs and working for like companies that would protect their IP or stuff like that. And she would go with, with video camera glasses and stuff like that. But this has been going on for years and years. Nobody cares about. In fact, not only did nobody care about it, people go down to Canal street to buy that stuff. Strongly recommend if you need AirPods or anything, they're not knockoffs, they're sealed and they're like 30 bucks. But I mean New Yorkers know this. I think even tourists like know this. Okay, come here to get knockoff stuff.
- [71:29]
A
Yes.
- [71:30]
B
So let's play. So she does she the one who calls ice or is that just a coincidence watching her?
- [71:36]
A
Yeah, she tag them on social media and all of those ice Gestapo goons who couldn't do what was the threshold? 15 push ups.
- [71:47]
B
These tough guys was 1.5 miles.
- [71:52]
A
Although to be fair, maybe these are the guys that passed the physical fitness test that so many of the other applicants are unable to do. So like to see this immediate reaction by New Yorkers as they saw this go going down, flipping them off.
- [72:24]
B
Looks like people that just got off work too. Yeah, I mean this is literally completely spontaneous.
- [72:29]
A
Yeah.
- [72:30]
B
And this is the thing with New York, it's this, it's much more tense place. And so you know, what would normally be, you know, five or six people yelling at them. All of a sudden they're going to have 50 to 100 people, you know, surrounding them. And here they've grabbed one guy. I don't know if how this is sequenced, this clip, but it's also the.
- [72:53]
A
Reporting is unclear how many they took, but they were moving south basically towards 26ft Federal Plaza, which is like basically one way, one subway stop away from Canal Street. And this the one thing where I'm saying, like I agree with you Sam, about the density and how unique this makes it, but my concern is, is that at least in Chicago and LA they have mayors who are not compromised by corruption scandals and who like are actually present in their office.
- [73:21]
B
Oh yes.
- [73:22]
A
Like the scary thing about New York.
- [73:25]
B
Here, there's no leadership right now.
- [73:26]
A
There's no leadership. Eric Adams is complicit. We don't know the extent of the deal that he cut to drop out of the race. But Sliwa is claiming that he was offered $10 million by some of these billionaires, donors that were so scared of Mamdani so that voters would coalesce behind Cuomo. What we don't know the extent of what the Deal is that Eric Adams cut with nefarious actors, but he's not protecting New Yorkers. There's no way.
- [73:56]
B
All right, I've got another guest here. She's gonna join us in just a moment. Emmy Paulos. And so let me switch my camera angle. And Emma, you'll be back in a bit.
- [74:13]
A
Sounds good.
- [74:16]
B
Okay, yeah. Joining me now, Emmy Palos. She is an attorney at levinpap, Antonio. And so, Emmy, you're working on cases that deal with social media addiction.
- [74:35]
G
Yes, that's correct.
- [74:37]
B
Can you just walk me through who are the defendants in this instance?
- [74:42]
G
Okay, so this particular litigation is a multi district litigation which has been consolidated in the Northern District of California. Currently, the defendants include Meta, which is Facebook and Instagram, as well as Snapchat, TikTok and YouTube.
- [74:58]
B
Okay. And just to explain to people, like when you say it's a multi district litigation, it's been consolidated. Essentially there are various different plaintiffs around the country and they're all suing these various companies. You're putting them together for the sake of like everybody's expedients, I guess, both the plaintiff and the defendant side in a multi district litigation. And unlike a class action suit where everyone suffers the same harm from the same act by a defendant, a mass tort is everyone suffers perhaps a range of damages, as it were, from the same acts by a group of defendants.
- [75:59]
G
Yes, that's correct. So essentially a multi district litigation is a civil procedural process that when you have a significant number of plaintiffs that allege similar injuries, this is a process that you could petition to ask the courts to review to see whether consolidation would be good. The purpose of consolidation is that it, like you mentioned, for the process to be more uniform, streamlined, consistent rulings. You're absolutely correct. It is different than a class action in the aspect that every case stands on its own merits. We have bellwether trials. So these are trials that are representative of the common plaintiff, common injuries, and each is tested on the theories, on the legal theories. And essentially any sort of damages that are recovered are based on the merits of that particular case.
- [76:55]
B
So the plaintiff gets a bellwether and the defendant gets a bellwether case. And they find out how a jury will, how much of an award or no award they'll give on those two different cases. And then usually some type of negotiated settlement falls in between those cases. So what is the, what are the damages? Who are the plaintiffs in this case Against? It's Meta, YouTube and Snapchat.
- [77:26]
G
And Instagram.
- [77:27]
B
And Instagram.
- [77:29]
G
So the plaintiffs are children that use social media, that have become addicted to it. Addiction is looked at anything that's considered unhealthy use. So an example would be using social media many hours a day or, you know, incessantly checking your social media, waking up in the middle of the night to see what's happening on social media. The fear of missing out when you're not on. It's really just, you know, having. It has its claws like you're hooked on the platform. So essentially, the pla. The plaintiffs are the children, the individuals that are under 18 that use social media and have developed an addicting habit with social media, and as a result of that, have some psychological and mental harms, which could be depression, anxiety, suicidal thoughts, attempted suicide, and sometimes very unfortunate cases, actual suicide.
- [78:27]
B
Okay, and in this instance, what should. What is the theory of the case here as to the liability that these corporations who put out these social media platforms.
- [78:41]
G
One thing I should also mention, another injury that is very prevalent in this litigation are eating disorders and body dysmorphia. So you see a lot of that with how these platforms have these beauty filters that, like, augment reality and give users a false perception of what they're supposed to look like. So that is another injury that I did want to mention. So the theories in this litigation are grounded on product liability and negligence. So essentially, the crux of the litigation is alleging that the platforms were designed in a way that are unreasonably dangerous for young users, for children users.
- [79:20]
B
And I mean, it seems obvious. I mean, but.
- [79:26]
D
So.
- [79:26]
B
But what do you need to do to prove this? Like, do you need. Do you need to find the working groups in Meta or Facebook that sit there and go, like, okay, this is how we're going to engage children? I mean, what. What constitutes evidence to support that claim?
- [79:48]
G
Yeah, the evidence is really, like, how the features are designed and how they're utilized and kind of the thought process behind it. Like, why was something designed a certain way? Like, why is there infinite Scroll? Why isn't there just a natural conclusion after viewing a newsfeed? Why do you have to continuously go. And the thought process behind that is the longer an individual scrolling, the more engaged they are and the more time they spend on the platform. So it really is pretty nuanced because we go feature by feature and see how that particular feature contributes to the addiction component in the litigation.
- [80:25]
B
And at what stage is this process like, and what will you need to prove that they had done that? Like, do you need to show documents? Is this going to be something that's going to have to happen happen under the course of discovery.
- [80:45]
G
So discovery is already completed. So we are done with depositions. There is a, so there's the multi district litigation which is the case in federal court and we have a sister case that's in state court in Los Angeles. It's in the jccp. The first trial date for the JCCP case on a personal injury claim is going to be mid November. So we are gearing up for trial. So it's really exciting.
- [81:09]
B
How many plaintiffs do you have?
- [81:11]
G
I think in general, I would say between the two litigations and I could be wrong, but I think the latest numbers I saw were about 3,800.
- [81:22]
B
How is it that low?
- [81:25]
G
That's a great question. I think a lot of that may have to do with kind of the sensitive nature of the injury and the topic. I've talked to a lot of parents that are very protective over their children's psychological records. They feel uncomfortable disclosing that information and they're just essentially, you know, scared to come forward and bring a case.
- [81:50]
B
How does one establish that this is a function of if a child has anxiety, how does one establish that it's a function of being on social media?
- [82:06]
G
So much so that's a great question. So there's a lot of science and literature that's been recently developed as this issue becomes more prevalent and more known that does show the links between certain mental health disorders and social media use. So that's one aspect of the equation. The other aspect is working with experts that do an independent evaluation and a SAP what features the child is using and what impact those features have and what impact that may have on their psychological well being.
- [82:41]
B
And ultimately you're going to require them to just basically keep children off of these platforms or what are the reforms that they could implement that would make it.
- [82:54]
G
Yeah, I don't think necessarily keep them off. Just make it a safer place for children to be able to utilize social media. Meaning that there are, you know, enforceable parental controls where parents can be active in setting those up to limit the type of time that a child spends or the type of content that they're being.
- [83:16]
B
I mean, theoretically I already have that as a parent. I mean it's difficult to operate. But I, you know, theoretically I'm, I can say you don't have X amount of time on Instagram or you only have that, you know, through my iPhone.
- [83:32]
G
Right. And so, you know, there are certain features and functions like you mentioned, that as a parent you can utilize but oftentimes your child is not with you. Right. They're using their cell phones at school, they're using their cell phones in the library. They're using their cell phones at sporting events or with friends. And you're not, you know, monitoring that. And so essentially these would be protections, additional protections and safeguards that would be embedded within the social media platforms.
- [83:59]
B
Within the app itself.
- [84:00]
G
Exactly. Yes.
- [84:02]
B
So that the app would record this account can only use. But couldn't they then go make another account?
- [84:09]
G
Well, and that's where the verification process comes into play, which is one of the issues in the case is that there isn't really a true age verification process, but there are ways to do verification that would circumvent and prevent creating multip accounts.
- [84:26]
B
Interesting.
- [84:26]
D
Okay.
- [84:28]
B
And in terms of like the, the, the number of, of, of plaintiffs, I'm again, I'm like sort of shocked a little bit because I feel like this has been, you know, a big, once you've gone through this discovery and whatnot, like, is it one of the fears that you're going up against some of the most, the deepest possible pockets who could, it seems to me, wage this litigation for decades and not even recognize the line item on their operating budget on any given year?
- [85:14]
G
Yeah, our hope is that that doesn't happen. No, we're definitely got a consortium of wonderful attorneys and law firms that are heading this cause. You know, we've put in significant resources. You know, we stood foot to foot with the defendants and intend to continue doing so and seeing this out to the end.
- [85:34]
B
Great. Emmy Palos from Levin Papantonia. Really appreciate your time today.
- [85:39]
G
Thank you. It's nice being here. Thanks.
- [85:42]
B
And next up, we have. We're going to continue on the. This sort of, I guess, theme that's developed in terms of children and online dangers. Jeff Gaddy, also from Levin Papantonio, here to talk about Roblox. Jeff, welcome to the program. My kid plays Roblox. So what is, aside from the potential addictive nature of it, we've talked to folks today about like, the, the design of these games to addict children. What are the other potential dangers that Roblox is presenting?
- [86:29]
D
Thanks for having me on, Sam. It's nice to be able to get on here and talk about this developing litigation against Roblox. You're right. The game is designed to attract children to get, get on the platform and to be on the platform for as long as possible. And while addiction is certainly a component of the case against Roblox, it is not the primary component. What Roblox has become is A breeding ground and a playground for pedophiles. You have a platform that is designed and marketed directly to children, not, not teenagers, but children. And there are no age verification protocols put in place by Roblox. And that works both ways. Right. So the children doesn't have to verify what their age is. And when you have an adult who creates a Roblox account and says that they're an eight year old child, there's no verification there either.
- [87:24]
B
Right.
- [87:25]
D
And so what we're having is interactions between adults and children that are happening freely without the child knowing. And that, as you can imagine, is leading to some pretty disastrous consequences. We're having instances of adults meeting these children in real life. We have instances of adults blackmailing these children for sexually explicit photographs, videos, and all of this without the knowledge of the parents. And all of this while Roblox is touting their product as being perfectly safe for children, and while they're generating billions of dollars in revenue a year.
- [88:06]
B
I mean, is there something unique about Roblox that is allowing this to happen? Or is it just simply this is where there's a lot of children hanging out and there's an absence of steps being taken by Roblox to prevent.
- [88:26]
D
These.
- [88:26]
B
Children from being exploited in this way?
- [88:30]
D
Sure. So it's a perfect storm of a lot of different factors. The first is, like I said earlier, this is a platform that is directly marketed towards children and towards parents of children with the explicit guidance from Roblox that it's safe. And they even tout it as a learning environment for children. And they say that despite knowing about these bad things, things that are that are happening on the platform, the other thing we have is people are incentivized to create these games, or Roblox calls them experiences on the platform. There's over 40 million of these different experiences that aren't just created by Roblox, but are created by any person who can create this experience and invite users to come and enjoy it or participate in it. And there's the online currency that they have, Robux. I'm sure you say you have a child that plays. You've heard about Robux. Children are very strongly incentivized to try to get Robux because they can use that to buy clothing for their avatars, different experiences in the games that they're playing. So you have this perfect storm of factors. The lack of moderation, the no age verification process, the, the fact that adults and children can freely interact and talk to each other. Wasn't until 2024 that Roblox first put in some types of hurdles to prevent adults and children from interacting. But as I said earlier, that it's really toothless because adult can just say they're a child and then they're on and they're. And they're defeating the system. So it's a perfect storm of the Robux incentives, the marketing to children and parents as this being a safe and effective platform, the lack of age verification and then the lack of moderation.
- [90:18]
B
Let's talk first about, you know, damages that have taken place and harm. Where do these stories range from in terms of, like I think you had said, adults coming in and how many, how many defendants are. Excuse me? Plaintiffs are there?
- [90:40]
D
Sure. So at the time, as of about three weeks ago, there were over 30 lawsuits filed. But there are many, many more coming. This litigation is in its infancy. There was recently a petition filed with the jpml. That's the group of federal judges that decide if a case should be centralized in front of one federal judge and if so, where it should go. There was a petition filed noting there were about 31 cases on file. This is as of a couple weeks ago, and asking that the cases be centralized in the Northern District of California, which is where roblox is headquartered just outside of San Francisco. Cases continue to be filed every day. We're seeing on the most extreme, like I mentioned earlier, cases where you're having adults physically traveling to meet children that they have groomed and met on Roblox. What Roblox is, is the initial meeting place for the grooming to occur. The patterns that we're seeing is that these predators will meet these children on Roblox, start a relationship with them, and then they'll try to migrate that conversation to a different platform.
- [91:48]
B
Right.
- [91:49]
D
You talked with Emmy earlier, I'm sure you talked a little bit about Snapchat, which is one of those social media platforms where you can send messages back and forth and they disappear. It gives the user a sense of, of security. Both the perpetrators will meet these children on Roblox, take it to Snapchat or Discord, another platform known for its encryption, and try to get sexually explicit images from the children. And that's what we're seeing is this blackmail or sextortion where they're demanding these photographs or videos and then it escalates all the way up to these in person meetings with assaults. Truly horrific stuff.
- [92:29]
B
Is how would Roblox prevent this? Like, I mean, you need to prove that their product is designed poorly and that would be the absence of some type of age verification. Is that basically it or like legit age verification?
- [92:51]
D
Sure. So great question.
- [92:53]
B
There, there's and I would add also it seems if in 2024 they changed it to where you could prevent adults from talking to kids, but you cannot prevent someone posing as a kid. They're sort of conceding there was a problem there and they just have provided a incredibly inadequate, adequate solution.
- [93:17]
D
Yeah, yeah, they buried their head in the sand for a long time and they're continuing to do that. So there's a lot of claims being brought in these, in these lawsuits. The ones that I as a parent and as a 10 year products liability attorney feel most passionately about is the failure to Warren claim. I think it's very important that companies as huge and as successful and is generating, you know, over 80, $90 billion market cap like, like Roblox. Roblox should give consumers an informed choice and should not be. I wrote down some of these, some of these, some of this language from their advertising. The program is family friendly, an online virtual playground for learning. Safety is in our DNA. That's what they're telling parents when they're trying to get their children to sign up up for the platform. What they don't do is transparently tell them about the risks that their children are subject to when they're up in their room for hours a day playing on this platform. They don't tell the parents and they don't tell the children and they don't give them the opportunity to make informed decisions. And to me that's just a damning lack of action on their part. Yes, they could impose accurate and enforceable age verification. They could, could require parental consent to establish an account like many other platforms do that have children on there. They could do a lot of different things to make sure they know the accurate ages of the people that are on the platform. There's technology out there where they can look at the interactions of their users and make a very accurate educated guess about the age of the users.
- [95:00]
B
I mean we get on YouTube, we get demographic breakdown of ages that I presume is somehow from Google tracking people. I mean we don't know specific individuals, but I presume like Roblox would have, any online entity would have that ability.
- [95:20]
D
Sure. And look, the other thing is there they went public a few years ago at an evaluation of about $44 billion that's only gone up since then. They now have investors to answer to and investors don't like, like costs and they want cost to go down. And one of the Things that cost money is making the platform more safe. And this is stuff that they say.
- [95:43]
B
Is it, is it the cost associated with that or is it the fear that parents will actually take these warnings to heed and be like, you know what, we're gonna skip the roadblocks.
- [95:56]
D
Look, I think it's all of the above. I wrote down a couple other quotes and these are from some of the developers, these are, are from some third parties that develop these games or experience on the platform. They said, look, we're supposed to make sure our users are safe. But the downside is that if you're limiting users engagement, it's hurting our metrics. And metrics are key for technology companies like Roblox. And so that's the rub is the more they invest in safety and the more firewalls they put up to prevent these things from happening, happening, they know it's gonna lower the time spent on the platform. They know it's going to lower the engagement and that's, that's bad for their bottom line.
- [96:36]
B
Right.
- [96:36]
D
So that's, that's one of the other issues we're seeing.
- [96:41]
B
Crazy. And how many, did you tell me how many plaintiffs there are so far?
- [96:46]
D
There's about 30. There's 30 to 30 to 50 cases filed now because they continue to be filed since the petition was filed. But we expect, and we're hopeful that there'll be an MDL granted and that and then we'll see many, many more coming after.
- [96:59]
B
And is there any way, I mean, to even get an accurate representation of how many of these adult, like fake child, real child interactions there are? Because I presume of that 30 to 50, the stories are bad. Like I would presume that bad things had to happen to ultimately get to the point where, you know, the, the fact that this user was not a child is exposed. But I also presume there's like a huge, you know, many more of those where it just happenstance that it didn't work out for the predator or the kid said no or, or, you know.
- [97:48]
D
Yeah, so the numbers are pretty staggering. They're up to nearly 100 million daily active users on the platform. By their own reports, over 60% of those users are under 16 years of age. Over 45% are under 12 years of age.
- [98:07]
B
I mean if they know that, they must have the ability to assess, at least take a good educated guess as to the age of the user.
- [98:18]
D
Yeah, you're totally right. And what's really concerning about it is Roblox has determined that they are as saturated as they can be in the child market. And so they now have a business strategy of what they call aging up, which means now that they have as many children on the platform as they think they can get, the way for them to grow and generate more revenue is to get more adults engaged with Roblox. And so we think we're just seeing the tip of the iceberg with these first several cases, first couple dozen cases that have been filed. And it's only going to grow from there. When you encourage, like Roblox is doing, this platform that has such a mixture of such a diverse age and you have these inept controls and you have. And they have the easy ability from them to move the interaction from Roblox to one of these other platforms where the exchange of images or videos or the blackmail or the sextortion can occur. It's just a recipe for disaster.
- [99:22]
B
That's. Yeah, that sounds problematic. Someone, just someone on the IM is saying if they have someone that can interrogate the source code, repo for evidence one way or the other. Whether a software vendor implements safety is advertised at the most rudimentary levels and through the application software and operational stacks. I'm not sure. Do you guys get that deep into the code to find out, like, just how rigorous, like, you know, and if there is anything in the way that the app is designed that sort of pushes this. I mean, this, I should say this story not with Roblox per se, but this story has been going on since the early days of the Internet. I remember my friend, the late Barry Crimmins coming to testify in front of Congress about AOL and it being, you know, sort of like a service where there was a lot of pedophilia that was going on at the time. And the AOL executives just like, turn their backs for probably similar reasons. Like, we don't. We can't inhibit the use of the app and they sort of like the addictive nature and the sort of like engagement numbers, because that will. That's one of the only metric that like sort of increases our valuation. That's how we get our stock payouts. I mean, that's basically the way it works, right?
- [101:01]
D
Yeah, sure. And look to a lot of the attorneys that are working on this Roblox case. We're working on the social media litigation, myself included. The source code issue that, the question that you got over im, that was a big issue there. Folks wanted to get at the source code for Meta, for Snap, for YouTube, and. And we kind of ended up having to push that to the side and really just dig into the other details. All of these companies have trust and safety departments. Whether or not they adequately fund and staff them is a totally different question. But we were really able to dig into the details about what they're doing from a moderation perspective, what types of limits they do and don't have and where they intentionally put blinders on because they know that if they look, they're going to find things they don't like and they're going to get into areas that they don't want to deal with. But, but you're right. This story is as old as time. The profits over safety and the motivations that are driving some of this behavior that's leading to really bad, bad outcomes for our most vulnerable citizens.
- [102:00]
B
Jeff Gatti, thank you so much for your time today from Levin Papantonio Firm. Really appreciate it. And I guess we'll get an update next time. We're back.
- [102:11]
D
Thanks, Sam. Appreciate you.
- [102:14]
B
Folks, let's bring Emma back on and I will rejigger my camera here.
- [102:22]
A
I'm on my way.
- [102:23]
B
There we go.
- [102:26]
A
Hello.
- [102:28]
B
This has been, we have one more interview that will come a little bit later. That is for the sport betting apps. And we've been hearing a lot, you know, lately about, you know, what it's been doing to particularly young men in their, you know, in terms of like just racking up huge amounts of debt and the, the amount of addiction that is, that is out there. But let's, let's talk about. What clip is this? The one that you guys saved for me. What number is that?
- [103:05]
A
Oh, McMar. 16.
- [103:08]
B
16. Yeah. Okay. Obviously I've been following some of the stuff about Graham Platner. We'll have some stuff to say about that in a couple of minutes. But this is a clip. You know, there is every reason for people to be suspicious of candidates. When we first introduced them, when we first introduced them, every reason folks got burned on Fetterman, there were indications that there might be an issue. I'm also not convinced that his physical health issues didn't really implicate this stuff because, I mean, you have a whole staff. The turnover in Fetterman staff has been like almost total. I think it's a hundred percent. And they've all, you know, basically left because it was a completely different sort of ball game than they had thought, too. So it wasn't, you know, and that's.
- [104:19]
A
He took APAC mode money, for example. I mean, Fetterman was openly courting the Israel lobby and we were in different circumstances where that was a little bit more like, okay, this is what he has to do. Maybe he supports Medicare for all and turns out. No, it just, I mean, Mills would also. Everything about him.
- [104:36]
B
Mills would also be better than Collins. Right. Like, even though.
- [104:39]
A
Right.
- [104:39]
B
You know, like it was Oz versus Fetterman, you know, still, I guess, probably. Yeah. I mean, certainly there's an argument. There's an argument. I mean, look, frankly, if, if The Democrats had 49 senators and Fetterman was the 50th and allowed them to stop judicial appointments or, you know, a whole host of things, then yes, of course. I mean, you know, a vote is a vote. Even, you know, Mansion and cinema, although they can ultimately come more problematic. But my, but the broader picture is it is worth being nervous about any candidate that comes on and doing your best to vet them. And this, and I haven't followed the Michigan primary race to too carefully. The, you know, I can't remember her name. What's her name?
- [105:47]
A
Haley Stevens. So there's a, there's the one of the Schumer. You have Janet Mills in Maine and Schumer, who Schumer is getting behind. And then you have the, their other pick, Schumer and Gillibrand. Haley Stevens, who is like, was openly courting APAC money, going over the top about it. Right. So talk about Fetterman vibes. This was like more of what that, what that looks like. And, but, but, but it's becoming so politically toxic that the, the, the Democratic Party's concern that Abdullah Sayed might end up winning this primary. And so it feels like the turn now is to Mallory McMorrow.
- [106:31]
C
Yes.
- [106:31]
B
And I have to say, like, my, if I was a Michigan voter, I would be voting for Abdul El Said. And he's just a better candidate, it seems to me, in terms of like his policy sets. This Segment from Mali McMurrow I just happened to catch and I find it, it so telling. I mean, if you want to talk about red flags and everything is. And when you're making these assessments, everything is a piece of evidence that might suggest that a candidate is going to do bad things in office. Right. I mean, that's basically what you're tasked with. Platner has a tattoo. It's one piece of evidence that he has, you know, could be one piece of evidence that he has Nazi beliefs. There's a whole raft of other evidence that he does not have Nazi beliefs.
- [107:41]
A
Like his private Reddit post 15 years being anti fascist might be a little bit of an indication for.
- [107:47]
B
Exactly. And you know, like Look, Pete Heg says the issue with Pete Hegseth is not just that he has a particular tattoo. The issue with Pete Hegseth is, is that he has a long time association with the people represented by the tattoo. And you know, like, so it's one piece of evidence that you want to see backed up with sort of real life things. I bring that up because I want to contrast that with when a candidate tells you that they're not for a policy, you should listen. And when they don't really tell you why, you should also listen. Here is Michigan Senate candidate Mallory McMarrow explaining and it's one of the worst explanations I've ever heard for someone not supporting Medicare for All. It is. And then she like doesn't physically run away from the question. She literally turns into a like a road comic to get away from the. Just watch this. Hey, that's insulting. With all due respect, Ryan, Road comics hate speech.
- [109:14]
F
What's stand on Medicare for all?
- [109:17]
A
Great question. I support unabashedly universal health care. Everybody should have access to health care. And I want to tell you why.
- [109:27]
E
I said it that way.
- [109:28]
A
So first of all, I shared my.
- [109:29]
F
Own story that I graduated right into the recession.
- [109:31]
A
I did not have any health insurance. I couldn't even stay on my parents plan until I was 26. And for millennial, millennials and Gen Z especially, we do not have the job security that our parents had. In my first campaign, my opponent knocked me sent out mailers saying she hasn't had a job longer than two years. I was like, well yeah, I'm a millennial. That's normal. That's just what we have to deal with. So the idea that for generations now who are going to change your job every couple of years that your health insurance will would be tied to your job is ludicrous. Also, by the way, it prevents small businesses from being able to compete with larger companies because offering comprehensive benefits and health insurance plans and childcare and paid leave is so prohibitively expensive that we have this situation where the larger companies get bigger and they can offer more and they can get the best talent and small businesses which make up 90% of of Michigan's economy, can't. Now I said it the way that I said it because some people conflate Medicare for all with universal health care. But Medicare for All, when it's actually defined is one singular government run health care system that we are all on. Now I want you to imagine what that would look like.
- [110:49]
B
Okay, pause it for one second. And then I just want you to go back positive for one second. It is not, first of all, Medicare for all is not one government run health care system. It is one government run health care payment system. In the same way that Medicare for people over the age of 65 is not government run health care. It is government run health care insurance. Okay, so she's, she's like already starting to conflate things. And I want you to just go back because I want you to hear where she turns to this. Remember, we have Social Security, we have Medicare that take care that are the closest things that we have to some type of universal programs. And it's universal in the sense that, that everybody is eligible once they get into retirement age. But it's not eligible. But everybody is not eligible. So we have, and it is, I don't know, we have 45 million plus. We, we have half the country almost on Medicare or Medicaid and Social Security. I'm not sure how many American, maybe a third, a little bit more are on Social Security. This is important to note where she comes up with the critique of government run health insurance. Good.
- [112:21]
A
But would you want, but would you want Donald Trump?
- [112:23]
B
Well, here's.
- [112:25]
A
Okay, all right.
- [112:26]
B
This is what she literally says.
- [112:28]
A
But Medicare for all, when it's actually defined, is one singular government run health care system that we are all on. Now, I want you to imagine what that would look like with Donald Trump and RFK Jr. At the head of it. You have this man who just last week held a conference saying that anybody who has been circumcised probably has autism because they probably took Tylenol. This is a man who decapitated a whale and dropped a dead baby off in Central park who works out.
- [113:06]
F
I don't know if you've seen this.
- [113:07]
A
And I know it's the pettiest thing to complain about RFK Jr about. He works out in jeans. There has to be so much chafing.
- [113:15]
F
I don't trust that man to make.
- [113:16]
A
Medical decisions for my family. She put this video out. This was her campaign, this video that we linked to. She thought this made her look good. And I remember what I just wanted to say earlier, before we moved past it, was when she's doing this parsing of universal health care with Medicare for all and trying to make it as so that those are separate things. It reminds me of what Gavin Newsom did in the recent interview. I forget if it was the higher learning one or a different one, but he talks about championing universal health care and just make a note of that. Put a Pin in that folks, because that has the ability to mean a variety of different things, as she just demonstrated there. And also creates this false premise that Medicare for all wouldn't be the best vehicle for universal health care.
- [114:05]
B
And I would even take it further than this. Not only is she. Her critique of Medicare for all complete bullshit. Because we have, because a, we have, you know, chaffed jeans and Donald Trump, Trump in charge of Social Security and Medicare right now. I mean, so that's a problem. But imagine how much harder it would be for Donald Trump and Bobby Kennedy to undermine a health insurance program that everybody relied on, politically speaking. It would make them completely vulnerable if they did that. And the idea that, that Donald Trump and Bobby Kennedy can't influence private corporations in this country is absurd. We have seen them do exactly that over and over again. And then I would also argue beyond the idea of explicitly what she's saying, she is undermining the idea of any type of universal programs by our government. Government. It is, she is, what she's talking about is an anti government disposition. She has an anti government disposition. Because if the argument is do you want public goods in the hands of bad people and therefore what, therefore we should give them to individuals who run insurance companies.
- [115:47]
A
You know, the saints over there, the beautiful. Yeah, Nobel Peace. Well that's not even correct. But the saints over at the health insurance industry.
- [115:57]
B
This was made by the folks, the Jimmy Dore type folks who were doing the march for Medicare for all. Some of the libertarians that spoke out, they started doing the anti vax pivot and said we can't trust the government that would have forced vaccinations to do Medicare for all.
- [116:12]
A
Yeah, yeah.
- [116:13]
B
I mean this is, this is so like this is far more telling than a tattoo without any other substantiation is so you know, people want to be looking for things to be suspicious about. And I, and I can understand it. You need to also listen to what the politicians are saying because you know what she said she was from universal health care. Well, that would basically be an expansion of Obamacare. I mean the, the where the government is paying subsidies to these insurance companies with absolutely no reason to be doing it.
- [116:57]
A
Right. And also if we return to the Medicaid or the Medicare and Social Security piece, this is why you would want to make sure that Medicare for all is in, is in mandatory spending and not discretionary. And you can, could solve that statutorily to insulate it from the politicians like right wing politicians getting a hold of it. It's part of what's given the durability to those programs for so long, even though the Republicans are cutting into it in other roundabout ways.
- [117:29]
B
Yes. And Donald Trump had to at least express fealty to the idea of not cutting Social Security and Medicare and Medicaid. Now they're going around doing it it and they're hiding the fact that they're doing it right in the big billionaire bill by claiming they're just going after immigrants and lazy guys sitting on their couch by cutting Social Security and Medicare. But the fact of the matter is that if everybody, if it was Medicare for all, it would make it much harder for them to lie about it. Right. Because then everybody would get health insurance and it wouldn't, they wouldn't be able to tell the lie about a, you know, 28 year old faking not having any work to get Medicaid because everybody would be getting it. They wouldn't be able to like by, by having a single payer system aside from it being far more efficient, far more cost efficient, far more efficient in terms of an experience, far more efficient in terms of providing broad based health as measured by the health of all Americans, not just the wealthy Americans. It is just a much more efficient system, but it's also much more politically durable than any other program that she would say needs to be protected from, you know, chafed thighs and Donald Trump. And so this is the type of stuff, this is the type of stuff you should be looking for when you're looking for clues as to what kind of senator this is going to be. And again, I understand why people are upset about Platner's tattoo do, but that is one piece of evidence. And if you find nothing else that corroborates the idea that this guy has, you know, appraises Nazis and in fact you have a lot of ample evidence that there doesn't seem to be the case. Yeah, And I, I think it's like a perfectly legitimate to come to the conclusion of like this is a guy who just didn't, wasn't terribly keyed into stuff. I mean, I don't know if he knew. I personally did not know that. But you know, I would have, I.
- [120:07]
A
Mean maybe call me.
- [120:08]
B
I'm also would not get a tattoo.
- [120:10]
A
Yeah.
- [120:11]
B
Because I'm afraid of needles. And so I don't know. But, but in terms of like it being disqualifying as a, as a function of his ideology, I think that's silly.
- [120:27]
A
I mean Bernie Sanders was very dismissive of it yesterday and saying we're talking about a tattoo here, you Have Martin Heinrich, who is a Democrat under the age of 60, who wants a future in the party and definitely I think is interested in Senate leadership. Also backing up his support for Platner, Gallego declined to basically throw him under the bus. I think he wants to run for president. He had said he deserves a second chance. And we now have the images this morning showing that he has gotten it covered up. So I just like, I think there has to be an opportunity for people to grow and change and there's nothing in that leaked the Reddit history. Apparently he's antifa is what the News story was 72 hours ago and now he's fuh. Now he's a fascist based on this tattoo alone. Apparently I can't keep up like what is wrong apparently with Graham Platner. But I do know what his policy platform is and I do know what he was saying in private with those Reddit posts. That is much more in keeping with what he's been promoting recently. So with his policy platform and he's not taking AIPAC money, he's getting small dollar contributions and that is the kind of thing that we should be to able, you know, not being so reactive to, especially because I just one more thing on it, like I'm seeing people sharing this Jewish Insider article where they have one anonymous source that said that he referred to the tattoo as a. I can never say this word. Todenkopf Totenkampf. It's one anonymous person who doesn't give their name and, and Jewish Insider is a right wing Zionist paper. And why are people on the left sharing this as some sort of evidence? We've got to get some media literacy on this.
- [122:25]
B
It would be an incredible move for him to have 10, 12 years ago written all this anti fascist stuff in Reddit chats that he did not want leaked, incidentally, did not want, you know, to be public written all this anti fascist stuff then as a way. But also I'm gonna keep the tattoo because that's where my heart really is. It goes back even further than that. Sam, he would have to have planted the pro Palestine stuff in his high school yearbook, right? Just to throw people off the set.
- [123:02]
A
But when you say that they don't.
- [123:04]
B
Think this is the way I'm going, this is the way I'm going to, this is the way I'm going to throw them off the scent. And what I'm going to do is I'm going to become an oyster farmer and that's the way I'm going to get into politics.
- [123:17]
A
But but the pro Palestine stuff, they are using that as evidence that adds to them calling him a Nazi. And this is where I'm getting frustrated with the lack of discipline on the left about this. First of all, like, we have to be conscious about what veterans were going through in the aftermath of the Afghanistan and Iraq wars. Like, I feel like so many of the people that are reacting to this kind of thing are either younger or weren't conscious during that time period. But, like, we put our veterans through the wringer and we don't have any social, many social services to provide them when they get back here. I still remember Bernie Sanders, like passionate pleas when he chaired the Senate Veterans Affairs Committee and fighting with John McCain over funding veterans care like, this has been a lot. The rate of homelessness for veterans in this country is exorbitant and disproportionate. LGBTQ people as well, like, this is important to keep in mind. And allowing people to grow is really something that we need to internalize here.
- [124:22]
B
Van Jackson had this on Twitter. I think it's as he said, I knew I served. Many people I served with had tattoos they didn't know the meaning of. And what online pundits think isn't going to move the needle much on whether Mainers vote for him. So, look, I think Graham had a huge amount of momentum, even maybe a lead going into the race when Mills first entered it. Yeah, he did. That's not true anymore. Hopefully we can have a race and get to actual issues instead of, you know, reading, getting deep into the signs and signifiers of the late Bush Iraq War era. Yeah, I mean, I think this is, you know, they got what they wanted out of this. And in terms of, like, the oppo research. Okay, I'm just getting a note that my next guest is late. Do we know how late? No.
- [125:14]
D
Okay.
- [125:15]
B
All right, so let's do a little more sound clips here. Should we do the Cuomo one?
- [125:28]
A
Sure. What number is that?
- [125:32]
B
Or actually, yes, we should do number eight. Okay, let's do eight. That's very funny. We need something funny. So this is Andrew Cuomo. He's on 1010 WINS, which is a local New York City AM station. They play the news.
- [125:58]
A
Traffic, traffic reports.
- [125:59]
B
News and traffic on the tens. Yep, let's check. He is on with Susan. Richard.
- [126:11]
F
I just.
- [126:12]
B
I guess the thing is.
- [126:13]
F
And you taught you say that he's the perfect TikTok candidate.
- [126:17]
D
What is it, though, about this whole issue of likability? There was a CNN social media poll.
- [126:25]
A
From a couple of weeks back that.
- [126:26]
C
Had you at a negative 17%.
- [126:28]
D
Likability.
- [126:30]
F
What is that about? And does it matter?
- [126:33]
B
I don't know what it's about. I'm sure people. People can find him more apparently likable, you know, likable. First of all, how do they know.
- [126:44]
A
If I'm likeable or not?
- [126:45]
B
They don't even know me. But I think they're responding to he's smiley. And whatever he says, he says with a smile. And he's apparently likable. When you look at me, do you say likability? No, I'm big. You know, I happen to be Italian and I happen to be a serious person because he's a serious job. Let's be clear on this. You've gone through a lot of scary stuff. The reason why people don't like him is because he's Italian. That is that as opposed to.
- [127:34]
C
Right.
- [127:35]
A
That's all it is.
- [127:36]
B
Yeah. You know how tall people in our society are always considered unlikable as opposed to, like, the fact that tall people are like, there's literally clinical data that shows tall people are. Get more benefits in society, more promotions, more promotions, et cetera, et cetera, etc. And then it's a, he's Italian, and then he says he's a serious guy, but also, remember his defense for sexually harassing or assaulting like, over 12 women is that like, I'm just a gregarious guy that's also, I'm Italian. Like, like, wait, is it the Italian thing that you're so serious and pulled back that people don't like you, or is the Italian thing that you like. I like to, you know, inappropriately touch women and propositions like, which one is.
- [128:29]
A
It or which one is it? Do you have immense experience in the state of New York that would give people a sense of how likable you are or not. Or people just being introduced to you now and making snap judgments about you.
- [128:42]
B
Being tall and Italian, as opposed to smiley, like Zora. He's doing everything with a smile. They've only had 35 years to get to know him. So I know that's the thing is that, like, has there been a. A more. The only other person who is more prominent perhaps in New York life over the past 20 years is Donald Trump. I mean, like, who else, like, who else have we been exposed to more than people? People thought Lou Ferrigno was likable and he was big in Italian. Danny DeVito. Well, I guess he's short in Italian. That's the key. You got to be short and all Right. All right, keep going. State. These are serious jobs. And frankly, I am in a serious mindset. We've gone through a lot of scary stuff in this state, and I am a serious person. One of the scary things is having a governor who is a serial sexual harassment. That was scary.
- [129:45]
A
Yeah.
- [129:47]
D
Is that it?
- [129:48]
A
He's frowning so you know that he takes the issues that he partially is responsible for seriously.
- [129:55]
B
I also like how he has to go from being jovial in the interview to all of a sudden, I'm serious. That's why people don't like me. You could see I've just changed my tone to back to serious people. Such a personality crisis like right in front of us. He has no sort of self assurance anymore. Like, I think people. People don't even know me. Well, first he goes in, he goes, oh, you know how it is. But they don't really know me. I'm.
- [130:24]
D
I'm.
- [130:25]
B
I'm really likable, but so likable that actually 13 women have had to file charges against me from. For. For being too likable.
- [130:35]
A
They were just trying to get my attention.
- [130:38]
B
It's just his smile, that great smile. He wasn't smiling when he held me over the calls for suing women for gynecological records. He did that with sort of a scowl, actually.
- [130:52]
A
I'm sick of how these guys, the way they talk about voters is if they can be won over. Like, I don't know, you playing peekaboo with a baby.
- [131:02]
B
Like, it's like Bill Clinton era stuff.
- [131:04]
A
Right, Right. I mean it. You think that this was the highest turnout in the history of New York City mayoral primaries because of his smile?
- [131:15]
B
No. And don't forget to talk. It was because of the social media.
- [131:21]
A
All the masses were hypnotized by that smile. Go to the polls.
- [131:28]
B
I should have been talking into a tiny microphone while walking down the street, but I was too serious to do such things. All right. Okay, we have. Our next guest is here with us. And let me switch my camera. And Emma will be back shortly. Here we go. Come on, have a seat. Just joining me now is Yvonne Flattery Flaherty.
- [132:04]
A
Yes.
- [132:04]
B
From the Lockridge Grindle. Nouwen.
- [132:07]
C
Nouwen. Yep. You got it right.
- [132:09]
B
Firm. You guys are working on a case where the defendant is. Sport betting apps. Are there particular sports betting apps that are the defendants in this case case.
- [132:24]
C
So we've been looking at this for several months and. And we think there's an industry wide issue here. Starting actually about seven years ago, the gate the courts opened Sort of the gates and the floodgates for the sports betting operators. There's a. Numerous, there are numerous operators out there. FanDuel DraftKings have about 74% of the market share, but there's, there's new ones popping up every day.
- [132:50]
B
And so give us a sense of who are the plaintiffs and what are the damages that they've suffered.
- [132:57]
C
Certainly we represent a number of younger adults and some youth who have unfortunately become addicted to gambling. And if we take a look at sort of the progression of this, I think it's very interesting. So fantasy sports, they've been around for, for ages and, you know, within the past decade, they've become an online activity, started with apps. And I think it's sort of the gateway into the sports betting world for many individuals. And this particular demographic, individuals 25 and under, at least when they start using these apps, have they grown up in a society that is electronic? Most of their lives are on their telephones and through these apps. The apps themselves are designed to increase user engagement, keep individuals on these apps as long as possible. They've become more gamified, which also increases the allure of the apps, particularly to a younger demographic. Unfortunately, they become addicted to these sports betting apps. And the DSM 5 recognizes gambling addiction as an injury. Unfortunately, it is the one with the highest rate of suicide attempts. Extensive other, other extensive mental health issues associated with the gambling addiction. There's definitely a stigma, of course, with this, where many individuals are trying to hide this from their significant others, their families, their employers. But our clients have suffered not only economic loss and gambling losses, but more importantly, physical injury associated with their addiction.
- [134:37]
B
And so are we talking that it's specifically children under the age of 18, or are we talking a range? Because I've read recently statistics that are showing that, like in states that have legalized the gambling, the betting apps, that bankruptcies are going up, that the credit card debt held specifically by like, the cohort of like 18 to 34, I think men, has just skyrocketed. So who are we talking about in terms of age and what do you know about what I've just said?
- [135:20]
C
Absolutely. And what you're reporting, unfortunately, is not an isolated statistic. We're seeing this across the board. Our focus has been on individuals who have started using these apps prior to age 25, 26. The science indicates that individuals, particularly men, who are under a certain age, usually that 25, 26, I'd say 27. At the very outer limits, the prefrontal cortex of the brain is not Fully developed at that age. And these apps are designed to really target and give that dopamine rush. And then that interferes with their prefrontal cortex, which then increases. They need to chase that high essentially that they get with the gambling and to keep that dopamine going. And so they then become addicted to these apps. And in most states, the fantasy side of the, which is not technically considered gambling, the fantasy sports are considered games of skill. And that's how the operators were able to get around certain regulations initially. And it's just a quick toggle between the fantasy sports side and the sports betting side. And they've actually, some of the operators have now introduced online casinos as well. So it continues to evolve. But it's individuals primarily in the range of 18 to mid-20s that have been using these apps for a period of time. They've become addicted, they've suffered financial harm, economic distress, physical injuries. There are some studies out there that show that 60% of high school students, particularly men or males, have gambled online at some point in time. College students, significant numbers of college students are using their student loan money. In fact, some of the betting operators had back end deals with very prominent universities and colleges where the colleges were getting paid for students to sign up on these apps. You know, I, I went to College in the 80s, so a long time ago. And back then it was credit cards. But now we talk to clients and the marketing of the sports betting apps on college campuses is off the charts.
- [137:30]
B
That's crazy. That is like what? That's crazy to me.
- [137:36]
D
It is.
- [137:38]
B
I mean, I can't just can't imagine anything more irresponsible for. Okay, so what is like what, what do you seek in terms of damages or what can they do before we get to that? Are there other sort of like potential classes of plaintiffs here? Because I'm just thinking back over the past couple years, probably 10 years, I had many conversations with people working on the opioids case.
- [138:15]
C
Yes.
- [138:16]
B
And of course, you know, we had Purdue Pharmacy, we had others. We also had the pharmacy benefit managers who are implicated in this because they're the ones who are supposed to see like, hey, why is there this huge blip in the amount of prescriptions in this, like West Virginia county going through the roof? And then of course, you know, down the, on the, on the pharmacy level even that there's some, there's liability associated. And some of the plaintiffs were like counties and cities that are having to deal with the implications of having so many people addicted to opioids. You know, Medicaid treating that. Now, I imagine that there, is there any type of damage that is suffered by government entities because like I guess Medicaid doesn't deal with gambling addiction or does it or Medicare. But society is paying a price for this.
- [139:20]
C
Society is playing a significant price in terms of broken relationships, lost productivity, bankruptcies, as you had mentioned, but also with respect to the physical injury that these individuals are suffering. Medicare, Medicaid, third party payers, those, they all are being forced to pay for certain elements of this treatment and recovery. For individuals who have.
- [139:47]
B
Are they potential plaintiffs in the future or.
- [139:50]
C
I think that they may have an interest. I also think that for colleges and universities that did not have these agreements or these contracts with the sports betting operators, I think they are starting to divert significant resources within their organizations to manage the growing number of the student population that are addicted to sports betting.
- [140:12]
B
So what do you seek from the defendants? Is it age verification? I mean, I don't know, like what age would it, I mean really, they should shut down?
- [140:25]
C
Well, it's a really interesting question and I think if you look outside the United States, you start to, to see what's been done in some other parts of the world that has at least some beneficial impact. For example, in the UK a few years ago, they started to require income verification if you were going to be gambling and using that to help set parameters in which somebody could be utilizing the apps. There are also some entities outside the US that have a more robust exclusionary policy in terms of cooling down periods, a break. If there's some sort of way you.
- [141:06]
B
Can actually use the apps.
- [141:08]
C
Exactly, because they use behavior analytics to create the product, which we believe that these apps are actually products subject to product liability laws to tailor the product to the end user. So what you may see on your feed is going to be different than what I see in my feed based on our likes and your user engagement. But they're not using that same behavior analytics to then provide necessary safeguards. Additionally, they.
- [141:34]
B
That's a really important point that I think crosses over like a lot of the stuff we've been talking about today with social media, with video game addiction. If we have the capacity to serve, if the algorithm has the capacity to serve up things to us as individuals to make us more engaged on an app, then they also have the capacity to serve us up stuff that doesn't make us more engaged.
- [142:04]
C
Exactly. And I think, and I would take it one step further, I think they also have an obligation and a duty if they're putting a product out There they do have an obligation to do so in a responsible way. And when they have information that suggests it is causing harm to the end user, there's an obligation to take steps to mitigate that harm.
- [142:22]
B
How would that information show up in.
- [142:26]
C
Terms of the behavior analytics? They have user reports, they have activity reports.
- [142:31]
B
They can see how much you've lost.
- [142:32]
C
Absolutely.
- [142:33]
B
They can track all of it, just how much you bet.
- [142:35]
C
They know when you're betting, who you're betting on or what you're betting on. Do you like a parlay? Do you like. Do you like to bet on antennas? Do you want to bet on. On who's going to win the Super Bowl? Who's going to win the coin toss, where Taylor Swift show up?
- [142:48]
B
There's got to be, there's got to be data that suggests that like, like, if you're betting on those sort of subsidiary things, I would imagine they can say, like, you are a, a P1 gambler as opposed to a P2 gambler, as opposed to like, like you're a, an addicted gambler, you're a regular gambler, you're a casual gambler, you're, you know, once in the super bowl, once a year gambler. They must know this, right?
- [143:16]
C
They absolutely know this because they use this to, to push content to you while you're on the app. They'll be pushing additional content to you in many instances. And there's unfortunately not a lot of incentive for them to sort of shorten that engagement that you have with the app. Because somebody may opposite. Yeah, because they don't want to lose that user to their competitor.
- [143:40]
B
Right. That's the complete opposite. They want you stay on as long as possible. We're talking from a casino.
- [143:47]
C
Yes. There's a little irony there, isn't there?
- [143:49]
B
Yes, there is, but we have regulations about that, don't we?
- [143:56]
C
We do, but those are also the floor, not the ceiling. And so each state does have regulations. There have been some federal congressional meetings, there have been some. Has been some legislation proposed. Nothing has passed at this point. But to provide some additional protections and uniformity in. Of terms. Terms of how that information is used and when those safeguards should be employed.
- [144:18]
B
Yeah, but I'm talking about with casinos, we have regulations, right?
- [144:22]
C
We do.
- [144:23]
B
And there is a heightened danger because you're carrying essentially a casino around in your pocket.
- [144:31]
C
Exactly. You have 24. 7 access immediately. You can be laying in bed, you can be sitting in the bathtub, you can be on your way to school, you can be sitting in class and accessing These sports betting apps, many people are doing it during the games. You know, while the games are in play, they are making their bets and their wagers. And so, you know, at least previously you had to take the steps to walk into a casino and there was some level of separation between an individual and that casino and that activity that. That no longer exists. The casino is in their back pocket.
- [145:12]
B
What stage is this case at?
- [145:13]
C
So the litigation's in its relatively early stages. There have been some class actions filed that are focusing more solely on economic harm. We are focused on both the economic as well as the personal injuries and hoping to make some lasting change. I anticipate we're going to see quite a bit of activity in the upcoming months.
- [145:32]
B
How many plaintiffs do you have?
- [145:34]
C
We have a significant number, I'd say nationally there's several thousand out there with that number increasing all the time.
- [145:41]
B
Von Flattery, Lockridge, Grindel and Nguan Nouwen Nouwen law firm. Really appreciate your time today.
- [145:50]
C
Thank you for having me.
- [145:52]
B
Okay, folks, let's just. I guess we got a couple minutes and then we wrap up.
- [145:59]
A
I guess so.
- [146:00]
B
The time really flew. Holy cow. The heat is on them when they do this. Emma's. Emma, do you have anything you want to say to us?
- [146:16]
A
Well, you know, I. I kind of quit sports gambling like a year and a half or so ago, so. Yeah, I mean, it's, it's.
- [146:26]
B
She was one of us.
- [146:27]
D
Yeah.
- [146:28]
B
Sushi and poker with the boys and she said no.
- [146:31]
A
Yeah. But honestly, what's sickening about it is it made me think maybe I should try again.
- [146:41]
B
That is actually the. That is like the addictive behavior. They found that, like, itchy palm. There's actually research that showed that anti smoking ads. Ads inspired people to go and smoke again because it just reminded them of the smoking. Same with anti drug stuff in high schools and up to the scared straight stuff where they would bring like somebody in from prison to say, like, hey, don't do crime. It like, had the opposite effect because people like, oh, crime is something that you can do.
- [147:21]
A
Right.
- [147:22]
B
Like a very. For a perverse effect.
- [147:24]
A
Right, right. Exactly.
- [147:26]
B
What else should we do here? Let's do one more clip.
- [147:31]
F
Sure.
- [147:33]
A
Oh, can we do 15, please? Because you know that this is my thing, Sam.
- [147:40]
B
Yes. Okay. I mean, well, in this instance, it's a little bit, but. Okay, let's go.
- [147:47]
A
Well, then if you, you don't. If you think my angle sucks, then.
- [147:50]
B
Then, then it's not that it's not. But it literally was a threat to him.
- [147:57]
A
I Agree. Which is why, as Zoran Mamdani has experienced threats as well, you redirect the conversation back to something systemic. If this was the only time I'd seen Jeffries try to turn a moment in front of the cameras into some sort of personal feud between him and somebody else and the Republican, I wouldn't be so annoyed by this. But, like, there's no message discipline from these liberals. It's all about, like, we're stuck in this 2010 celebrity owning culture. No one cares about this.
- [148:37]
B
I think that's true. But I do think that if, like, like, if he's talking about someone who literally threatened him directly, not as, like, you better not pass that legislation. It was more. But.
- [148:50]
A
But you go, this is the kind of. This is more about. This is the environment that Donald Trump has engendered. This is what we got to play.
- [148:58]
B
What he says first. Okay, let's play to address the extremism that is being unleashed on everyday American Americans by this administration all across the country.
- [149:10]
D
We will not bend, we will not break.
- [149:14]
B
We will never bow down. And when it comes to these extremists out there, you better watch how you talk. When you talk about me. I could see what you're saying. I mean, he was okay.
- [149:33]
D
He. He.
- [149:36]
B
He was like, we're not gonna, you know, all this environment, you know, we're gonna protect everybody. And. But incidentally, for the people who are really bad, it's, you know, don't mess with me.
- [149:49]
A
It's just him trying to act like a tough guy. I mean, can I. This is. Can you talk. This administration has. Has pardoned violent January six rioters. They have locked up folks who are speaking out against. Of course, he would never say this, but the genocide in Gaza or who have opinions that the administration doesn't agree with. I am only here. I'm here to protect those people. And the story isn't me getting targeted. The story is all of the people who don't have a platform like this. I mean, this is the most hostile administration to free speech in the modern history of the country, and it's creating a culture of violence with his supporters that choose to act out in this kind of way.
- [150:37]
B
Let's just like, contrast it with how when anything happens to Donald Trump, like Donald Trump's assassin, regardless of the fact that he was a registered Republican, is the entire left right? Is the entire Democratic Party. The person who assassinated Charlie Kirk suddenly, is they the left, all of it. And they do this on the. On the right to great effect. And it's Largely a lie. Whereas the opposite is true for Hakeem Jeffries. There are people under assault, like, you know, we're watching ICE shoot people accidentally. We're watching ICE arrest people who are American citizens. We're watching them brutalize immigrants who are here legally. And you don't have to, you don't have to lie about like how what the right is engendering in this country.
- [151:51]
A
Well, they do the exact opposite to your point. Like they actually go to great pains to minimize. They call them extremists. He said that over and over again. And that's true. But you can also be a little bit more specific about who these extremists are. They're fascists. They're part of the Trump movement. Movement. Like, they better watch out.
- [152:16]
B
Don't you, don't you say anything bad about me, right? As far as everybody else, like, you guys fend for yourselves. But don't, don't, don't say anything bad about me. That's.
- [152:27]
A
We need that Booker sound drop, man. Do you have, you wanna, you want.
- [152:34]
B
To come to me, you better come to me. Good God, her dear Lord. Oh yeah. If you want to come at me that way, you're going to have to take it up with me.
- [152:45]
A
See, See, it's not people's material reality, right? People are scared. People are living paycheck to paycheck. We are hitting records of credit card debt over and over again. You headline this in about what the reporting we're seeing about premiums. If there's, there's no extension of these ACA subsidies, premiums nationwide are set to rise by 18% on average. It's the worst year over year price hike in the 12 years since the ACA marketplace is launched. The average marketplace consumer will pay $1,904 in annual premiums next year, up from 888 in 2025. So that's doubling. Then you have things like it's going to hurt the states that have the highest state run marketplace enrollment in the country. Georgia is the second highest and the estimates show that. And by the way, there's a Senate race, very important Senate race in Georgia in 2026. Georgians could see their estimated monthly costs double or even triple. And the examples of like, because they have these higher income tiers now, the premium increases for say this Washington post example, a 6 year old couple in earning $85,000 may have to pay $31,000 for a plan in Kentucky, $28,000 for a plan in Oregon and 44,000 for a plan in Vermont. Like we're headed towards an economic cliff. I mean and just look at the percentage of their income that what. What these ac. What could the expiration of these subsidies could do that they would be having to just pay on health care.
- [154:40]
B
All right, should we do one more clip or. I mean the. George Santos is pretty funny but also that clip of the ICE guy who in August who. That might need a little more time. Okay. All right. Well we can also just read a couple IMs and then get out of here. Wyoming. Ryan, I found drugs through DARE. Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That was the thing. When you got into drugs in high school you would go to thrift stores and try to find DARE shirts and wear them ironically. And that is not Kentucky Fried French fries. Luke for New Mexico. It's okay. People can just pay off their credit card balances with those brand new split payments like Klarma. Klarna Planter. Hardly know her. I need the booker sound drop. As a guy who is focusing so much of my effort effort on ending human suffering on the planet Earth. Hogtown feel like the show has been the low key. Sam Shakes his co hosts. We got mad on video games. We got M on gambling. Going to need a tort for people who suffered circulatory issues from sitting too long on the toilet to even it out. Inspector Kuno. Sam looks and sounds like George Zimmer from the old men's warehouse commercials. All right, that's fair. I think I may have gotten this suit at the gentleman's warehouse, but Kowalski from Nebraska. Can I get a shofar for my 32nd birthday yesterday? Also I put out a video on my YouTube channel Prairie Fire talking a little bit about the logistical issues of the trade war. I get a bit effing granular. Do you want to hit the. Do you have a shofar any around there? Do you want to just do your.
- [156:58]
A
I do actually. Here we go.
- [157:02]
B
This goes to Kowalski. Every American will soon receive their med bed card. All right. Three more Congressional baseball fan is a late diagnosed neurodivergent person. It was wild when I realized how much my life depended on predictable routine and small changes to it were often hard. Sometimes I feel still feel myself saying fair trade coffee, tea and chocolate in my head. And I think I might not be the only one.
- [157:37]
D
One.
- [157:38]
B
There's some truth. Sam enjoys some routine as well. That's some. That's true. That's true. That's why this is. This trip is always so sort of difficult for me. But it really is true. I'm like, wait, I'm not going to be in the big conference room with the guy with the golf noise to interfere with. But how will I. I'm going to be able to hear the guests. Okay, that's fine. That should be fine. But the cameras have to be over there because that's the way I'm used to looking at them, so I don't want to. And can I have the same chair from the other room? Basically, my requests. Illuminati kids. I like. You guys haven't seen the Sopranos. Cuomo has the. Has to be the sad clown, but also the Gary Cooper. It's tough. All right, three more. Dimitri Medbed.
- [158:38]
A
Ev.
- [158:42]
B
Tony Soprano. Famously likable, large Italian.
- [158:46]
D
Yep. And.
- [158:51]
B
He would literally murder his family members. And you go, I like him.
- [158:54]
A
Yeah.
- [158:54]
C
Up.
- [159:04]
B
A dark soul. Good oppo research here. Google Janet Mills, date of birth. All right, folks. Matt, Ryan, Emma, back in the studio. Great job today, folks. We will see you tomorrow. I will have more interviews from the tort conference taking place in Las Vegas, Nevada. We'll see you tomorrow. I wasn't looking when I just got caught between the truth and the light bar the fighting out won't make me feel any better.
- [160:01]
E
Yeah, I know the.
- [160:03]
B
Clock is ticking but the meds are gonna kick in and my p shining bright I get somewhere the choice was made for the option where you don't get paid for the road that bends before it finally breaks you.
- [160:29]
D
I guess.
- [160:29]
B
Somehow I lost my drive between the 101 and the 5 do you know, know how far the teacher takes you? Yeah, I know the clock is ticking but the man's not gonna kick in and my pilot light shining BR.
- [161:10]
D
The.
- [161:10]
B
Night shifted into me while I shifted in and out of here Waiting for my moment to happen I still know how much longer I can stay in how much more to pay to play I know somehow.