Matt Leckie (5:05)

Yeah, I know DSA is taking this tact, but if you're in any kind of political group and there's a no Kings rally in your area, you should have that group seen at that no Kings rally 100%.

Sam Seder (5:20)

It is a good opportunity to find like minded people. And you know, there's every reason to believe, regardless of what happens with the midterms, that we haven't seen the end of these ice raids and that there is just more of a crap show to come. I don't know how else to put that and also try and stay positive. But it is something to anticipate. It's a very good, it's a good idea. Remember like that old joke about the lawyer, the best time to get a lawyer is when you don't need one. The best time to start to network and organize is when you don't have to. So much of what happened in Minnesota and apparently Springsteen is going to be at the, I don't know if it's the Minneapolis no Kings rally, but he's going to be at one no Kings rally in Minnesota. This just coming off of him performing at the Riverside church for the 30th anniversary of democracy Now. But the reason why Minnesota, among other reasons, but I think a very important one, the reason why Minnesota was able to respond the way it did and really in many respects break ice for at least the time being is because of all the organizing that had happened during the Floyd protests. And so, you know, there was a base, there was a basis there and a sort of almost an institutional memory. So very important. Get out there, show yourself out there. Don't anticipate that it's going to change the world, but it's tiny steps and that's the important thing. So Donald Trump, what are we in day Three of his five day. Or maybe we're in day two. I've lost track.

Emma Vigeland (7:37)

Day three.

Sam Seder (7:40)

It does not seem like the Iranians are taking Donald Trump's negotiations seriously. They have been screwed over at least twice by the Trump administration when they thought they were negotiating in good faith, and it was Trump just teeing them up for an attack. And apparently the Iranians have said that they will no longer negotiate with Steve Witkoff or Jared Kushner. Those are the two who led the nuclear negotiations with Iran before this war started. We already know from the Foreign Minister of Oman that he believed that Wyckoff and Kushner did not understand, simply did not understand, were too stupid to understand or too stupid to know their limitations and bring experts with them so they could understand, which is probably worse. I don't know that I could understand nuclear negotiations, but I would know that I couldn't understand that, and I would bring an expert if I had one at my ready, which, of course, if you are the envoy in these things, of course you do. So they won't speak to Witkoff or Kushner. The Pakistan, which appears to be the country that will, according to them, facilitate meaningful and conclusive talks to end the war, have said that JD Vance is being put forward by, I think, the Americans to sit down with the Iranians. He needs something to do. He's been in hiding. He would love to be able to come back and say that he had negotiated peace with Iran. But it's unclear whether this is anything other than a way for Trump to buy time to get 3,000 at least 82nd Airborne personnel into the region. Apparently, their general is also coming, which is rare for the commander to be in theater unless they're actually going to get on the ground. And, you know, everybody is assuming that it's going to be attacking Kharg Island. And then I guess the theory is that Trump will say, I got Kharg Island. I can go now, but we'll hold onto it just to make sure that Iran doesn't charge a toll through the Strait Hormuz. I mean, this is where we are. How supposedly you don't really want to get too involved, and this is how you sink into a quagmire. We're just watching this. It is in complete slow motion. And none of this is interesting in the sense that we're living it. It might be interesting for people to study this history in 50 years or 20 years, but now it's just a disaster. But it is sort of fascinating to watch this happen in real time where 60% of the population is like, why the f are we doing this? But here is Pete Hegseth. It is honestly, if you were going to draw this as a cartoon, you would put his. Put this up his American flag hanky in his. His suit because of all that it represents. Like, I want to see him pull it out and blow his nose on it. But this is. I mean, this is exactly how you would draw the whole thing. Listen to Hegseth. Let's play it once. Brian and I both saw this, and it's. It's juvenile and pure isle, but let's

Pete Hegseth (12:05)

play this as viciously as possible from moment one. And that's why we see ourselves as part of this negotiation as well. We negotiate with bombs. You have a choice. As we loiter over the top of Tehran, as the President talked about. About your future, the President has made it clear that you will not have a nuclear weapon. The War Department agrees our job is to ensure that. And so we're keeping our hand on that throttle as long as. As hard as is necessary to ensure the interests of the United States of America are achieved on that battlefield.

Sam Seder (12:36)

Okay, I know this is juvenile. This is juvenile. I mean, this is Pete Hegses, the Secretary of War, talking about how when they negotiate as opposed to the negotiators, we negotiate with bombs. And watch Trump as. As Hegseth puts his hand on the throttle and watch as he talks about what happens when he puts his hand on the throttle.

Pete Hegseth (13:09)

So we're keeping our hand on that throttle as long as hard as is necessary to ensure the interest of the United States of America are achieved on that battlefield.

Sam Seder (13:20)

I don't know.

Matt Leckie (13:20)

Pause.

Sam Seder (13:21)

Okay. Pause it. Okay, there it is. All right. Yeah, the. The hand on the throttle. Okay, nice.

Emma Vigeland (13:30)

Guys, Pete's gonna keep talking. I'm gonna run. I'll excuse me for five minutes.

Sam Seder (13:34)

You guys continue on without me. I've just got to go to the bathroom for a second, and it's. And then I. You know, maybe this. I don't. I don't know, maybe this is related in some fashion. I don't know. Later in this press conference, Trump starts talk. And I guess, like, this is Trump thinking he's being clever. Like, we already reading news reports that the Iranians don't trust the peace plan. They don't trust this five day. They don't trust any of it. They know there's a very good chance that this is just being set up for an attack. But Trump, I don't know. I don't know if he thinks he's being clever here. And like, oh, they offered something and it really moved me. Look at how I'm acting all moved. And I'm so impressed with them. I just don't know. Like, it's impossible to get into the mind of this psychopath, but here he is.

Donald Trump (14:38)

Because they're going to make a deal. They're going to make a deal. They did something yesterday that was amazing, actually. They gave us a present and the President arrived today. It was a very big present worth a tremendous amount of money. And I'm not going to tell you what that president is, but it was a very significant prize and they gave it to us and they said they were going to give it. So that meant one thing to me. We're dealing with the right people. No, it wasn't nuclear related. It was oil and gas related. And it was a very nice thing they did. But what it showed me is that we're dealing with the right people because, you know, you don't know, because the leadership was.

Sam Seder (15:22)

Let's just hear a little bit. I just want to hear.

Matt Leckie (15:24)

That's it. But he basically says, like, the leadership has been killed by us, so we don't want to say explicitly who we're dealing with in case they get killed, too, by our allies.

Sam Seder (15:31)

Yeah, exactly. That's actually a good point, because Israel, at this point, if Israel had any sense, I mean, let's for a moment pretend that Donald Trump is being sincere here. And I don't. I don't think he is. I think the decision has been made that we're going to go on the ground that he feels like he needs to walk away with something. And frankly, as Mad Dog Mattis,

Matt Leckie (15:59)

this

Sam Seder (16:00)

was the reasonable guy in the first Trump administration, was at an event, I guess, maybe Monday, saying that he thinks it's almost like we're past the point of. Of exiting, that if we were to leave now, Iran will necessarily charge a toll on all the ships coming out of the Strait of Hormuz, because they will have proven that there's no one to stop them. Right. Like, if we stop at this point and that we will have shown ourselves to have been a paper tiger in Israel as well. And if Mattis is saying that publicly, I imagine there's a lot of people saying that to Trump and that you're going to be responsible if you don't do something more. You're going to be responsible for oil prices just going through the roof. And when you think about it, is there anything outside of, like, racism and misogyny and xenophobia that Trump talks about more than gas prices over the past, like, year. And all of their let's go, Brandon Maga stuff was about gas prices, gas prices and egg prices. And I think he got, I think he got, I think he's been convinced. And so it's quite possible the Iranians said, we will give you this oil field or we will give you that oil field or whatever it is. And it's his way of saying, like, oh, now we believe we're dealing with the right people, therefore we won't attack. I think it's not. I mean, I think honestly we're now like at the point where they're adults, they get it. But we'll see. In a moment. We're going to be talking to Lisa Zhu and Caitlin Clark. They're from Labor Notes. Caitlin Clark is a national organizer at the Essential Workers for Democracy. And Lisa Hsu is a staff writer and organizer at Labor Notes. About the strike happening, the first one in about 40 years at a beat packing plant in Colorado. First, a word from our sponsor. Did you know that Fast Growing Trees is America's largest and most trusted online nursery with thousands of trees and plants and over 2 million happy customers? 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Actually, I'm digging into this, but the idea is you can't get it anywhere because they don't travel well. So there are all these fruits that are not available to you because they're not commercially viable. So get an American Pawpaw. Do yourself a favor. It grows in zones five through nine. I mean, of course there's a bunch of apples I could recommend, too. But I'm just trying to diversify my core brand proposition. And it's super convenient. They come right there. You don't have dirt all over the place. Right now they have two great deals on spring planting essentials, up to half off on select plants. And then our audience gets 20% off of your first purchase when using the code Majority at checkout. So that's an additional 20% off. Better plants, better growing at fast growing trees.com using the code majority at checkout. Fast growing trees.com use the code Majority. So look, now is the now is the time to plant early spring. You can also do it in fall. But now is a great time to plant. If you plant there, there are some, like, you know, Korean pear trees you can get from them. You may get a couple of Korean pears this season. Certainly next season you will use majority to save. Today offers valid for a limited time. Terms and conditions may apply. We'll put the information in the podcast and YouTube description. Quick break. We come back. We're going to be talking to Lisa Hsu and Caitlin Clark about this first meatpacking strike in 40 years. We'll be right back after this. Sam. We are back. Sam Cedar on the Majority Report. Emma Viglin is out today. Want to welcome to the program Lisa Hsu. She is a staff writer and organizer at Labor Notes. And Caitlin Clark, national organizer at Essential Workers for Democracy, which is a caucus, a reform caucus in I'm sorry, which union was it?

Caitlin Clark (23:50)

The United Food and Commercial Workers Union the ufcw.

Sam Seder (23:53)

And you're both writing about this strike that's happening in Colorado. Lisa, let's start with you. Just set the table for us here. This is the first meatpacking strike in 40 years. Why is it a. Why that. Why has it been 40 years?

Lisa Hsu (24:14)

That's such a great question. So this, the last meatpacking strike of the scale was the strike against Hormel foods in Austin, Minnesota, which was in 85, 86, the decade of kind of a new offensive against unions under Reagan, just five years after Reagan busted the Paco air traffic controllers union. And that fight really galvanized so much support from around the country. I think they were out on strike for like 13 months and in many ways ended in defeat, even though the workers so courageous. And then since then, the meatpacking industry has only consolidated further. They had a particular union busting strategy of, I mean, common in other industries too, of closing unionized plants, citing various factors only to reopen surprise in non union plants. And through that process, they've really eroded the unionization rate in industry. As I think many people know, if you've read our story and other coverage, this is a very vulnerable workforce, increasingly so a lot of new immigrants, refugees from a lot of different countries. And so over time, I think the industry has just made it really hard for workers to organize and to fight back with, you know, through waging these campaigns of fear. And so I think that alone, I think explains a lot of it. And we're seeing now, you know, a local union in Colorado that is really determined and these really brave workers who are really determined to show that it is possible for meatpacking workers to organize and fight back.

Sam Seder (26:19)

You guys wrote that following World War II and you know, presumably for some years, well into the 60s and 70s, up to 90% of meatpacking workers were unionized. And now, and by 2019, we're at 15%. I imagine that may have probably even shrunk since then because of the consolidation. We have four major meatpacking companies that control about 85% of the industry. So Caitlin, what are the circumstances in which this strike is taking place? And we should say, my understanding is it's a planned two week strike. And I want to ask you about that after this. But what were the circumstances of this particular strike? Because my understanding is that the broader union outside of this local had sort of come to some terms.

Caitlin Clark (27:17)

Yeah. So this contract has been expired at the JBS Greeley plant for over or almost a year now. They've been expired since I believe It's July of 2025. So they've been fighting for a new contract for over a year. And on last Monday, March 16, at 5:30am All 3,800 workers walked off the job. So they're entering or they're in week two of the strike this week. I've actually been here in Greeley on the ground for the last week or so, talking with workers and being out on the picket line. And I wanted to say that just being on the picket line has been incredible. It's hard to put it into words. I wish that everyone could experience what it's like being out there. The picket line has stayed really strong. They brought together workers from all around the world who are speaking different languages. And normally, the bosses and the plants across the meatpacking industry really depend and rely on these language and cultural barriers to divide workers and to prevent them from organizing. But on the picket line in Greeley, we're seeing workers dancing together, sharing music and food, and chanting in each other's languages from Spanish to Burmese to Haitian.

Sam Seder (28:27)

We have a clip of this. Let's Play. This is 25 seconds long. It really is fascinating. I want to get into the sort of, like, the diversity that's there and into how that may cut both ways in some ways, but here we go. So, I mean, there's a lot of different, like, immigrant nationalities, I guess, that are represented there. How much? Of, like, in addition. And, you know, we have other footage. I mean, there's a lot of people who are out there on those picket lines, and you hear, you know, si se pueda. But you'll also hear other languages being how much is what's going on in terms of, like, ICE and the assault on immigrants impacting the solidarity that these folks feel with each other in this context. Caitlin?

Caitlin Clark (29:53)

Yeah. So across the meatpacking industry, which is an industry that has a predominantly immigrant workforce across the country, the meat packers tend to want to rely on immigration and the threat of immigration enforcement to scare workers, regardless of their immigration status, out of organizing and into accepting the conditions that the meat packers want to force onto them. In this particular plant, the vast majority of the workers have either temporary protected status, they're permanent residents, many of them are citizens, although they may have been born in a different country. And when these workers went to vote on their strike authorization a couple months ago, JBS had several ICE officers stationed outside of the plant as an attempt to intimidate these workers out of voting. But these workers ended up voting 99% to authorize a strike. Strike. And it's just really incredible to see this amount of bravery and courage in this particular political moment. That being said, on the picket line, there has not been any ice activity. And workers generally feel that they've been supported through their local union, UFCW, Local 7, to know their rights, to feel confident, to be out on the picket line, to not be afraid. And what we've heard from members being on the line is that the experience of being on strike has kind of stripped away some of the fear that people experience, whether that's with regards to immigration and the current state of the Trump administration or with regards to their employment and to the bosses, which kind of work hand in hand, which in very kind of specific ways to try to repress workers organizing in the meatpacking industry.

Sam Seder (31:40)

So, Lisa, let's talk about what the issues are. The one is the line speed. What does that mean? And why would that be an issue?

Lisa Hsu (31:53)

Yeah, so this has long been an issue in the meatpacking industry. It's kind of what it sounds like. You have workers who are placed fairly close together on a line where they're doing various tasks. Right. Like it could be deboning parts of the animal, it could be, you know, cutting up other parts. And there are. This is something that's negotiated between or subject to negotiation between the union and the company. How fast, you know, how many parts, how many animals are meant to be processed at a time. And the companies have an interest in speeding up as going as fast as possible in spite of the danger to the workers. I think these injuries are described in the article and others cuts, just the actual conditions are very hazardous. So this is something that again, the workers are always locked in the battle with the companies to around line speed. So that is definitely an issue here.

Sam Seder (33:07)

And in terms of safety, the other thing is that, I mean, these guys, they're all working with knives, obviously, and they've got to move very quickly. I literally, I get my knees go weak over this. I worked in a deli once and cut myself on the, on the, on the deli slicer. And it's just, I can't even think about it, frankly, now. But there, when you're working in these, on these lines, there's equipment you can wear that will offer you some protection. Obviously you can't be completely protected, but like mesh vests and armed guards so that, you know, if you knight a knife hits your arm and apparently, according to what you've written, the workers have to pay for that.

Caitlin Clark (33:56)

Yeah, yeah.

Lisa Hsu (33:57)

It's Shame on the companies. They've been garnishing workers wages to help hotel to pay for their own protective gear. You know, they claim it's only when it's been like maliciously damaged or something, but this is really kind of, I don't even know, not even icing on the cake. Yeah, this is, you know, the meanwhile the company is trying to make, almost seems like they're trying to make the conditions as dangerous as possible for the workers.

Caitlin Clark (34:30)

If I could jump in here, this personal protective equipment can cost up to $1,100 per worker out of pocket. And so workers are provided PPE when they first get hired, but that PPE very quickly wears out through just regular wear and tear. People might lose it or it could get stolen. And anytime it has to be replaced, whether that's the cut gloves, the mesh vests, even a knife sharpener for the knives that people use on the line. If that gets worn out, you have to pay and that money is taken out of your paycheck basically without your consent. There's a requirement of your, you know, safe working conditions that you have this ppe. You have no choice whether or not to have it. But the company can just take that money, right?

Sam Seder (35:15)

How do they justify that? Like, I mean, it's not like, oh, you know, people are probably taking their mesh gloves home and they're, you know, wearing them out to parties or something like, I mean, this is clearly safety equipment and it's just insane to me that they can garnish. Like, I don't even know how are other workers at other plants? Do they get their wages garnished too? Or is this like a sort of a unique feature here?

Caitlin Clark (35:45)

The answer to that question, I'm actually not sure 100% what, what that's like at other plants. I know this has been a specific issue they've been focusing on at the Greeley plants. But you know, to your question of how the employers justify it, the truth is these employers are criminal operations. They operate like cartels with each other. In the meatpacking industry, I think we mentioned earlier, 85% of the country's beef comes from just four meat packers. Between 5 and 7% of all beef produced in the entire United States comes just from this JBS Greeley plant on strike. And these employers have spent JBS alone has spent $100 million in court settlements just over the last year over industry collusion to repress worker wages, increased prices for consumers, child labor violations. At the JBS Greeley plant that's currently on strike. And, you know, they've been held up from their IPO by regulators up until very recently from going public on the New York Stock Exchange until a convenient $5 million donation to Trump's inauguration fund quickly waved going public on the stock exchange just a couple months later. And so these companies, JBS is a Brazilian owned company, and the owners of the company had gone to jail for insider trading back in 2017. There's no justification that these meatpackers need. And I think that's part of what is so inspiring about this strike, is that workers are standing up against some of the most powerful and some of the most greedy criminal operations in corporate, not just corporate America, but around the globe.

Sam Seder (37:32)

It's shocking how they have been able to sort of layer that type of law breaking together, like the bribery, the worker abuse, all of it. It's like some type of parfait.

Donald Trump (37:52)

What?

Sam Seder (37:52)

Okay, so it's two weeks long. What's the theory? By sort of like starting out and saying, we're gonna do this for two weeks? Caitlin, what's, like, why, what was their theory that we're gonna do this for two weeks and then call it in? Are they, are they hoping to build more solidarity? Are they hoping to get other sort of locals at other plants to sort of join in maybe down the road? What's, what's the strategy here?

Caitlin Clark (38:23)

Yeah, this would be a great question for us, CW Local 7 leadership, who would be a great guest on the show. I don't know the answer to that question, but I, to my understanding, the local announced that the strike was planned for approximately two weeks, although the strike could end earlier if JBS agrees to come back to the bargaining table in good faith. There's, yeah, there's a lot of different ways that this could end up, but I would have to kick that question over to the local leadership.

Sam Seder (38:56)

All right, let me ask you this,

Emma Vigeland (38:58)

because

Sam Seder (39:01)

the National Labor Relations Board obviously is essentially, you know, dysfunctional at this point, by design by the Trump administration. But my understanding is that some of the regional, national, some of the regional labor boards are still sort of, like, functioning in some ways. So is this a way in which it draws attention to the unfair labor practices and maybe puts more pressure on sort of like regionally, I guess, or no. I mean, I sense a little bit of skepticism on your part for saying it's going to be two weeks, but maybe I'm projecting. But what I mean is that one of the ideas, we're just going to raise awareness of what's going on in these plants with the hopes that that the local representative, the National Labor Relations Board, will be more active.

Caitlin Clark (39:55)

Well, I think in truth, you know, the labor movement has existed long before the National Labor Relations Board even existed. And while it's really unfortunate that the Trump administration has been attacking the National Labor Relations Board and has kind of really undermined that legal pathway, I think what we're seeing with the JBS Greeley strike is one of the most powerful tools that workers have ever had, which is the ability to withhold their labor. And the worker power and people power that is behind this strike, in my opinion, is more important than what's going on at the nlrb. And we can see this as a great example of how organized workers, when they're united and when they're together around a shared fight and when they're able to, you know, come together across different barriers that they might be facing, can really take on some of these corporate giants and make a huge difference. And I think to your point about raising awareness, we talked earlier that this is the first major meatpacking strike in 40 years. And so I think this has the potential to have a ripple effect across the meatpacking industry and to kind of break the pattern that we've been in of, you know, no strikes in the meatpacking industry. And so this is really a kind of path changing event in the meatpacking industry, which is why it's really exciting. And as you point out, it's happening in the midst of a really crazy time for labor law and for the National Labor Relations Board. And so I think it points to, regardless of the legal systems that we have in place or what laws we're using to support worker organizing, the power that we have comes not from the law, but from workers uniting together and standing in solidarity with one another.

Lisa Hsu (41:46)

If I could add to that, I think building on what Caitlin said, yes, of course we would love to have an NLRB and labor laws actually enforced in this country. But the public also had the role to play in supporting the workers in terms of like, thinking about our power beyond just what's going on with, with the law right now. I don't know if in the show notes you'd be able to share a

Sam Seder (42:11)

link to that was actually the next question I was going to ask you is how can folks support what's going on there?

Caitlin Clark (42:19)

Yeah.

Lisa Hsu (42:19)

The local has a hardship fund. Essential Workers for Democracy has also set up a strike support fund that will go to the Local 7 fund as well and for immediate support on the picket lines if anyone's able to drive up to Greeley. One of the simplest ways, think I, you can support any strike anywhere. It's just to show up to the picket lines in solidarity. That means so much more and shows the employer, too, that there's public support and there's public eyes in what they're doing. So, you know, I encourage everyone to feel empowered in this moment. You know, the public and the rest of the labor movement has a role to play.

Sam Seder (43:03)

All right. Well, we will put, we will share those links in the show notes at Majority FM and in the podcast in the YouTube description. And folks can show up there, bring a pizza, I don't know, bring some tacos or whatever, bring whatever kind of food. I'm sure the folks on the picket line would appreciate it and any type of support. And also people love it when you honk your horn when you go by. I noticed that, too. Caitlin Clark, Lisa Hsu, thank you so much for your time today. Really appreciate it.

Lisa Hsu (43:33)

Thank you so much for having us.

Sam Seder (43:35)

And we'll check in as this goes on and see if there's any more developments. All right. We've got to take a quick break. When we come back, we're going to be talking to Javier de Honanon, director of the mass Defense at National Lawyers Guild to discuss the nine people convicted of terrorism related charges and the attack on Prairie Land Ice Detention Center. I don't even know if it was an attack, but I guess we'll find out right after this. It. Foreign. We are back, Sam Cedar on the Majority Report, Emma Viglin out today. Back tomorrow. Joining us now, Javier De Janan, the director of mass defense at National Lawyers Guild to discuss nine people who were convicted of terrorism related charges in what some have characterized as an attack on the Prairie Land Ice Detention Center. But I'm not quite sure that it could be characterized as an attack until the protesters were attacked. But Javier, welcome to the program. Tell us what was the situation like, what was going on on that day?

Javier De Janan (45:35)

Thank you. Thank you so much for having me. So as you mentioned, there was a three week federal trial a couple of weeks ago in North Texas. And so before the trial we would say it seems to be, it appears, we believe, but now after the trial we can say we know what happened. And what happened is that on July 4, people organized a noise demonstration. This is a very common form of protest where people go to a jail, a detention center, a prison and make noise. And that was what was happening. You know, July 4th was picked because it's independence Day. And the goal was to make noise in solidarity with people inside an ICE detention center. So people went. Made a lot of noise. They had fireworks. No, the fireworks didn't damage any property, didn't damage any fences. And it was.

Sam Seder (46:31)

And this was on July 4th, correct?

Javier De Janan (46:33)

July 4th.

Sam Seder (46:33)

So it's basically just saying, like, we want to make you feel like you're part of a July 4th celebration so that you don't feel so isolated and you feel like people have forgotten you.

Javier De Janan (46:43)

Correct. And it was a success. We heard during the trial that immigrants inside of the detention center actually went to the window where the fireworks were, you know, and were cheering on. And it was a big success. But what happened next really changed everything for these people's lives. While the protest was happening, one of the people actually went out of the protest and started destroying ice, vehicles, tires, destroyed a surveillance camera, and so on. It turned out that that person didn't even know any of the defendants. They kind of just did it on their own. And that person actually ended up being cooperating with the government. So that person actually testified during the trial on what actually happened. And so after all this goes down, you know, they call 911, a police officer arrives, and the officer was actually responding to a report that someone was breaking into the ICE facility, which was not happening. I mean, all of it is miscommunication, misinformation. But when the officer gets there, he gets out of the car and sees some protesters running. I mean, you know, the sirens are there, so people are leaving. The officer pulls out his firearm, aims it at the protesters, and that's when shots get fired in his direction. And then the cop shot shoots back.

Sam Seder (48:12)

How many protesters were there on that day?

Javier De Janan (48:16)

It's hard to say. And this never was clear in the trial, but it seems that it's about a dozen or so, or maybe more.

Sam Seder (48:23)

Okay, and who was it that shot? Once the cop pulls out his gun, who was it that shot from the. It wasn't the same person who had messed with the ICE vehicles, was it?

Javier De Janan (48:36)

Nope, not at all. And, in fact, where the shooting happened was at the parking lot. The fireworks happened somewhere else, near a fence. But the jury did find last name Song Champagne Song guilty of basically discharging firearms. So that's who the jury determined shot at Lt. Gross is his name.

Sam Seder (48:58)

And was that individual who shot the weapon, were they part of the protest as well? And presumably they were leaving if they're in the parking lot at that point, yes.

Javier De Janan (49:09)

So the understanding is that everyone who went was there for the noise demo, and then things went south.

Sam Seder (49:16)

Am I wrong to be a little suspicious about the guy who freelanced going and vandalizing the ICE vehicles based. Based upon, like, stuff that we've seen at some of these protests in the past? Am I, am I wrong to, like. And that person just happens to be the person who testifies on. I mean, how am I wrong to be suspicious about that?

Javier De Janan (49:44)

Not at all. I mean, you know, COINTELPRO happened in this country where federal agents would infiltrate movements and entrap people and cause different bad events to happen. I mean, there was no indication that this person was an informant. But he did drive from very far away to get to the protest. No one knew him to this day. I remember we didn't. We don't know who that person's family is. And he wasn't the only person who cooperated, unfortunately. But of all the cooperators, I would say it was the one who was distant. Right. The unknown random character.

Sam Seder (50:26)

Okay, and so how do we get from an individual firing on a cop who has drawn a gun, which is not something I would recommend to people to do, how do we get from that person firing that weapon to people who were. Obviously, the guy who slashed the tires is responsible for slashing the tires. But how do we get from there to nine people get convicted for being terrorists?

Javier De Janan (50:57)

Yeah, I mean, what I would describe is we get there because the federal government wanted to pursue this huge prosecution. After the gunshots, the last name song, Champagne Song did go into hiding, it seems. And this created what the government calls the manhunt across the whole state. They were looking for song. You know, there are reports that, you know, how you can get a text that says, you know, amber alert, missing child. People in Texas got, you know, alert looking for this person. And through that incident, a massive investigation opened. Phones were being surveilled, cars were being followed, and people start getting arrested and houses get raided in what the government imagines is the quote, unquote, North Texas antifa cell. So the government, I'm going to say, created this group. And then with that justification, with that reason, they expanded this investigation. There's actually, sorry, a total of 19 defendants. So nine got convicted federally a couple of weeks ago. But there's more across.

Sam Seder (52:13)

And are they waiting trial or were they exonerated at that trial?

Javier De Janan (52:19)

Three of them have only state level charges. So it's the same incident, but only in Johnson County. The rest of them have state level charges that are still pending. So even, even the ones that were federally convicted have state charges.

Sam Seder (52:34)

And are these people. Were these people all at the protest or were none of them at the protest? Or is it just that they belong or not belong? They just are in contact. This like.

Javier De Janan (52:49)

Yeah.

Sam Seder (52:51)

So two questions. One, how many of these people were at the protest? And then to, like, what. What is the characterization? When do I belong to a nonexistent group? You know, North Texas antifa. When do I belong to that group? If I'm texting people who are texting other people.

Javier De Janan (53:13)

Yeah. So for the first question, at least, this is where it gets so crazy. Eight of the defendants convicted were at the protest. There's a ninth one, Des Sanchez, who didn't even know a protest was happening. He was just married to one of the defendants, and he moved a box of pamphlets of zines, and he got charged and convicted of concealing evidence. But there's a very smaller number of people who were at the protest. The rest were not. And so either people got charged with what they call the manhunt cases. Right? Like helping someone escape. But the majority of them have these concealment of evidence, destruction of evidence charges, mostly having to do with signal messages that people deleted each other from group chats or that they left group chats or that they told people how to delete group chats, essentially. And that really is to your second question, how does the government find you to be a part of a terror cell? Apparently, it's being on a signal group chat that this is the government's theory. In fact, in California right now, there's a case called. It's the Turtle Island Liberation Front. And the entire theory of the Turtle Island Liberation Front is based on a signal group chat, that everyone who was in that group chat is a part of this cell, of this organized crime group. But I know, as someone who supports the right to protest across the country, that people join signal group chats randomly. You show up to an event, you know, a group of friends are planning something. And now, I mean, even government officials use signal to. For their own work.

Sam Seder (54:55)

Would that. Would they be able to do this if you joined a WhatsApp channel? I mean, like, what's the difference between joining a signal group chat, which is designed, you know, it's not like, you know, like a group chat that I have with my, you know, say, my family, where we all have to sort of like it doesn't exist except for within relationship to us. Whereas a signal group chat is a. Is a bigger thing. It's like almost like an email. It's like an email list on some level. It's a distribution platform in many ways. I know that, like even my kid in junior high, they have other apps where you can join, like the class group chat. So what, what is it about Signal? And obviously, I think probably everybody is sort of thinking the same thing right now, which is that's how everybody communicated in Minnesota and they weren't part of, you know, Antifa Minneapolis. They were just. I'm in touch with my neighbors because we're coordinating protest action.

Javier De Janan (56:05)

Yeah, I mean the difference that the government would say about Signal is that it's encrypted communication and there are abilities on the app itself to delete messages and it's pretty safe. But WhatsApp is also encrypted communications. And more and more what you describe Discord and other online platforms also have encryption. And encryption isn't because people are doing bad things. It's because the government surveils everything. I mean that really is, is why people seek these things outside of sms, right? Outside of text, because people value their privacy and their security.

Sam Seder (56:45)

Twitter encrypts the dms. Now, like, I mean, does that mean that it is prima facie evidence of a crime being committed?

Javier De Janan (56:52)

This federal government would say that if you have an encrypted communication channel and you the title is, you know, we're going to do something bad. You're part of the we're going to do something bad terror cell. I mean, this is the extent that the government is going to criminalize dissent. Really?

Sam Seder (57:13)

How did they, I want to first know, like what was the relevance of them claiming there is an antifa organization as opposed to antifa being sort of a disposition.

Javier De Janan (57:31)

It actually had nothing to do with the federal case. None of the federal charges required a criminal organization or a terror organization. None of them. The injection of antifa into this case was, from my perspective, purely political. In fact, after the so called antifa expert of the government gave his testimony, even the judge was asking that same question. What does this have to do with anything you're trying to prove? Riot, attempted murder, discharging a firearm, what do their beliefs have to do? And you know, the government would say, well, it shows intent and it shows disposition and it shows plan. But no, I mean this case could have happened with no mention of their political ideology. And some people would say that maybe that was the right way to handle this case for a government. Right. Talk about the offense, talk about what you're charging. Not all these very contentious, controversial words like antifa, free them all, free the immigrants and so on.

Sam Seder (58:40)

And how did the Government find people on. How did they find the group chat? Was it that some of the members of the group chat basically said, I'm a member of this group chat. Here, look at my phone, and here's how you find the names of these people.

Javier De Janan (58:58)

Unfortunately, very quickly, defendants gave over their phone. And so people cooperated really early on. And when, when the government grab has your actual phone, I mean, they can access everything there. Right. You put your password in. So if you're a part of any group of any, you know, your bank account, your secret folder with secrets that you possess, when you give over your phone, I mean, everything is handed over. So that's what happened. And then making matters worse, some of the cooperating defendants also told the government, you know, this person is that person, this face is this other person. So the cooperating witnesses basically gave the government their whole case.

Sam Seder (59:44)

And so where does everything stand now? These people, have they been sentenced?

Javier De Janan (59:50)

Yeah, so. Yeah, that's a good question. So the federal trial ended. There might be more motions that get filed. Sentencing is actually June, so there won't be a sentence till June. And then I suspect there's going to be a long appellate journey. Right. Court of appeals. But while that's happening, there are three state level defendants that do have their cases moving on. And, and one of them, Dario Sanchez, all he's accused of is of removing someone from similar. A signal group chat or a discord group chat. And the state of Texas is accusing him of essentially aiding terrorism by destroying evidence. And he was able to get a bond. But his trial will be set soon. And there's two other defendants, Janet Goring and Lucy Faulks, with identical accusations. These signals accusations.

Sam Seder (60:46)

And so how long can you go to prison for deleting your name from a group chat or deleting somebody else's name from a group chat?

Javier De Janan (60:55)

In the state of Texas. Decades. It's a felony. And the state of Texas has really strict and punitive sentences. You can imagine.

Sam Seder (61:06)

Does the state not have to prove that the underlying action of the people on this chat was illegal or just that you were deleted from. From a group chat?

Javier De Janan (61:17)

Yeah. The government will need to prove intent, knowledge. Right. When you.

Sam Seder (61:23)

Yeah, I'm talking about if we have a signal chat here for. Hey, guys, we got to coordinate a live show that we're doing. If the live show is not a. Is not found criminally, we're not criminally liable for the live show. Can we be liable for. I mean, don't they have to prove that something illegal happened at the protest

Javier De Janan (61:50)

this federal government would say that if the live show is about anarchism, anti fascism, and freeing immigrants, the live show is a crime. I mean, this is the. The reality we find ourselves in. What they would have to prove, however, is that the person removing or deleting had knowledge of whatever, like criminal plan or criminal intent. But the way that these cases are evolving, it seems that you just being there, is evidence, at least for the government, that you're up to no good and that you're up to. I mean, terrorism is what they say.

Sam Seder (62:26)

What about on a state level? I mean, the state charges. Do they also say that, like, if you're protesting out in front of an ICE facility, that's a crime relative to deleting evidence that you were there?

Javier De Janan (62:42)

In many ways, the people running the state of Texas are even more conservative than the people running the federal government. And the Attorney General of Texas and the governor of Texas has actually made public announcements that they are infiltrating leftist organizations, that they are going to be prosecuting this type of case actively. So, I mean, in many ways, it's even worse. I mean, the laws are, you know, there's First Amendment protections and the right, you know, you have to be proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. These constitutional protections exist, but often you have to wait till trial or to appeal to get there. So a lot of these DAs and prosecutors, you know, charge, find a conviction, and then years later, someone gets justice.

Sam Seder (63:35)

If folks want to support these Prairie Land defendants, how would they do that?

Javier De Janan (63:41)

Yeah, so Once stop shop prairieland defendants.com there. If you want to donate, there's a fundraiser. If you want to write to the defendants, there's letter writing. And importantly, if you're in Texas, there's many court dates that people can go to physically and learn more. What I will add to, you know, in terms of the extreme nature of these cases, lawyers are very expensive. And so the support committee of these defendants will always need more money. It really is a really challenging situation, and I hope that as people learn about it, they help them so that there's no more Prairieland defendants, really.

Sam Seder (64:26)

We will put links to that site in our podcast, in YouTube and at Majority FM. Javier Dunan, director of Mass Defense at the National Lawyers Guild, thanks so much for your time today. Really appreciate it.

Javier De Janan (64:42)

Thank you. Thank you for having me.

Sam Seder (64:43)

All right, folks, we're going to take a quick break, head into the fun half of the program. I feel like maybe we should have started with that one and done. The union stuff is a little more fun. I know that was.

Matt Leckie (65:02)

Are we doing crimes right now?

Sam Seder (65:05)

Crime Crime podcast Crime. Well, folks, happy Wednesday. Unbelievable.

Matt Leckie (65:23)

Just note that in when the Dakota Access pipeline thing happened in North Dakota, there was a gun there and somebody got arrested for it. The gun, it turned out, was brought there and given to the person who was arrested for it by a government informant.

Sam Seder (65:40)

So, I mean, at the very least, the random guy who shows up to do to attack ICE vehicles sounds a little sus to me.

Matt Leckie (65:53)

Well, and I mean, Fred Hampton actually has a great quote when he was like 20 years old when he's like, we don't support those kind of tactics. He calls them Custeristic because it basically provokes a violent and response in an undisciplined way. And so even if that person wasn't doing it to eventually be an informant, that's an undisciplined act. And it's not a surprise that they turned immediately into an informant because they weren't coming from a place of discipline.

Sam Seder (66:18)

And.

Matt Leckie (66:18)

And one battle after another is kind of a story about that. Yeah.

Emma Vigeland (66:24)

Imagine being 20 years old and saying Custeristic.

Matt Leckie (66:27)

That's the crazy thing about Fred Hampton is he was like the Mozart of politics.

Sam Seder (66:33)

Yeah. Well, good lesson to be learned and really important when you're on these protests. I mean, that if you see somebody who's a sus, call them out. I mean, I just remember there was footage in. Was it in Minneapolis, I think, where the guy had shown up with where he was burning the flag.

Matt Leckie (66:58)

Yeah.

Sam Seder (66:58)

And then somebody, a couple of people followed him and go, like, where are you going to? Like, where are you from? Why are you leaving the protest right after burning the flag? You're just sort of walking away like, that was your job.

Emma Vigeland (67:11)

The jeans and shoes almost always give it away.

Sam Seder (67:13)

I've noticed that. Protest.

Emma Vigeland (67:15)

I'm dead serious.

Sam Seder (67:15)

Dude who wears jeans and shoes to a protest.

Emma Vigeland (67:19)

It's like these kind of police boots, like steel toed work boots that are very like, I don't even know where,

Matt Leckie (67:25)

you know, leftist has ever gotten from. Police. Yeah. Like overstock.

Sam Seder (67:30)

Yeah. Dave from Daniel from Virginia says Sam, some amount of caution for the American pawpaw. It is slightly neurologically toxic. We need you functioning at peak performance.

Matt Leckie (67:48)

You're gonna derail the show with this kind of talk.

Sam Seder (67:52)

Well, I'll be careful.

Emma Vigeland (67:54)

I have the fast growing trees link to Pop Pop right now. Said they taste like banana custard pie in a. I was like, all right, I'm in.

Sam Seder (68:02)

Oh, my God.

Emma Vigeland (68:04)

I've done worse things for my neurological

Sam Seder (68:06)

system, without a doubt. I mean, frankly, just showing up at work every day these days is like doing enough folks. It's your support that makes the show possible. If you want us to be able to deliver depressing news on a daily basis,

Emma Vigeland (68:28)

maybe you have like too much serotonin. Maybe you have one of those overactive serotonin. Yeah producing brain.

Sam Seder (68:35)

Do you have a friend who goes through life just completely too joyous? Send a link. You can give them a membership. This is not the way to sell this. Join the MajorityReport.com Join the MajorityReport.com when you do you not only help this show survive and thrive but you also get the free show free of commercials and yet the fun half. And you can IM us. I am us at the via our app. Our app is available@majorityapp.com it is completely free. We have an iOS version, we have an Android version. They are completely free. And here's the best part. We don't sell your effing data to with some SDK packet to a private equity so they can figure out where the best place to put a you know a Starbucks is or whatever it is. We do not do that. We tried to figure out how to do it but we couldn't figure out just involved too much effort. No, we did not do that. We will never do that yet. So the app is completely free. You can listen to the show on the app. You can IM us the app. If you're a member you can, you can use it. If you're not a member or a member you can watch our YouTube through that app. So check it out. MajorityApp.com Also don't forget join the Discord MajorityDiscord.com we got what, how many thousand? 15,000. Over 15,000.

Emma Vigeland (70:08)

It was 18 last 18,000.

Sam Seder (70:09)

Could be 20,000 at this point. Majority Discord. It is a great resource. Are you organizing? Do you want to have tips on how to organize? Do you want to talk about movies? You want to talk about current news? I mean on and on and on. It's a great place to go talk to or chat with like minded folks. And of course am quickie theamquickie.com Top news stories in your email box every morning at 9am by two great writers Corey Pine and Whitney Wimbish who will bring you the top stories of the day for free three days a week for a couple bucks. You get it five days a week am quickie.com and also just coffee, co op, fair trade coffee, hot chocolate. Use the coupon code. Majority get 10% off. You can buy The Majority Report Blend. Check it out, Matt. What's happening in the Matt Leckian media universe? Yeah.

Matt Leckie (71:08)

Yesterday, a new episode of left reckoning on YouTube and Twitch with Max Alvarez of the Real News and the working people's podcast talking about East Palestine, the current state of the poisoning there, what actually happened and where we are as a country in terms of environmental protection, which is not in a great place, turns out. So for more bad news, check out some yesterday's Left Reckoning,

Sam Seder (71:33)

folks. See you in the Fun Half three months from now, six months from now, nine months from now. And I don't think it's gonna be the same as it looks like in six months from now. And I don't know if it's necessarily gonna be better six months from now than it is three months from now, but I think around 18 months out, we're gonna look back and go like, wow. What? What is that going on? It's nuts. Wait a second. Hold on. Hold on for a second. Emma, welcome to the the program. Fun Half. Matt. Fun. What is up, everyone? Fun hack. No, Me.

Caitlin Clark (72:16)

You did it.

Sam Seder (72:17)

Fun Half.

Caitlin Clark (72:19)

Let's go, Brandon.

Sam Seder (72:20)

Let's go, Brandon. Fun Half. Bradley, you want to say hello? Sorry to disappoint everyone. I'm just a random guy. It's all the boys today.

Lisa Hsu (72:30)

Fundamentally false.

Caitlin Clark (72:31)

No, I'm sorry.

Sam Seder (72:32)

Women's talking for a second. Let me finish.

Lisa Hsu (72:35)

Where is this coming from?

Sam Seder (72:36)

Dude? But. Dude, you want to smoke this?

Caitlin Clark (72:39)

7A. Yes.

Sam Seder (72:46)

Yes. Is this me? Is it me? It is you? Is this me? Oh, it's me. Think it is. New you. Who is you? No sound. Every single freaking day. What's on your mind?

Pete Hegseth (73:06)

Sports.

Sam Seder (73:06)

We can discuss free markets and we can discuss capitalism. I'm gonna go to la. Libertarians. They're so stupid. Though common sense says of course. Gobbledygook. We nailed him.

Caitlin Clark (73:17)

So what's 79 plus 21?

Sam Seder (73:19)

Challenge. Man, I'm positively quivering. I believe 96. I want to say 857-2-1,0,355-011. Half. 3, 8, 9, 11.

Caitlin Clark (73:29)

For instance, $3,400.

Sam Seder (73:30)

$1,900. 5, 4. $3 trillion. Sold. It's a zero sum game.

Caitlin Clark (73:37)

Actually. You're making me think less.

Sam Seder (73:38)

But. But let me say this. You call it satire.

Javier De Janan (73:43)

Sam goes satire on top of it all.

Lisa Hsu (73:46)

My favorite part about you is just like every day, all day, like with me. Do.

Sam Seder (73:50)

Without a doubt. Hey, buddy. We see you. All right, folks, folks, folks.

Caitlin Clark (74:01)

It's just the week being weeded out. Obviously.

Sam Seder (74:03)

Yeah. Sun's out, guns out. I, I, I don't know.

Caitlin Clark (74:10)

But you should know,

Sam Seder (74:13)

people just don't

Matt Leckie (74:14)

like to entertain ideas.

Sam Seder (74:15)

Anyway, I have a question. Who cares?

Matt Leckie (74:19)

O chat is enabled.

Sam Seder (74:21)

I love it.

Caitlin Clark (74:22)

I do love that.

Sam Seder (74:25)

Gotta jump. Gotta be quick. I gotta jump.

Javier De Janan (74:27)

I'm losing it, bro.

Sam Seder (74:31)

Two o', clock, we're already late and the guy's being a dick. So screw him. Sent to a gulag. Outrageous. Like, what is wrong with you?

Javier De Janan (74:42)

Love you.

Caitlin Clark (74:42)

Bye.

Sam Seder (74:44)

Love you.

Javier De Janan (74:45)

Bye.

Sam Seder (74:46)

Bye.