3612 - The Christo-Fascist Shadow President w/ Andy Kroll

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Majority Report with Sam Seder

Episode: 3612
Title: The Christo-Fascist Shadow President w/ Andy Kroll
Date: October 28, 2025

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Overview

This episode features host Sam Seder in conversation with investigative journalist Andy Kroll (ProPublica) for an in-depth discussion of Russell Vogt, former Trump OMB director and current architect and “shadow president” of the post-2024 MAGA agenda. The segment explores Vogt’s fusion of Christian nationalism and fiscal extremism, the overhaul of federal government norms, the long-term damage to public institutions, and the emerging dynamic between ideologues like Vogt and the rest of the conservative movement.

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Table of Contents

1. Key Headlines & Political Context
2. Spotlight: Russell Vogt – Who Is He?
3. Russell Vogt’s Ideology: Christian Nationalism Meets Fiscal Extremism
4. Vogt’s Methods: Constitutional Authority and Bureaucratic War
5. The Aftermath & Government Damage
6. Vogt’s Relationship with the GOP & Shutdown Strategy
7. Memorable Quotes & Moments
8. Timestamps for Key Segments

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Key Headlines & Political Context

• Looming SNAP (nutrition) benefits crisis for 42 million Americans due to GOP leverage (health insurance cuts).
• Historic government shutdown continues; White House accused of using false legal ‘constraints’ to justify inaction.
• Major executive branch shake-ups: Trump team actively replacing ICE leaders, tying in Russell Vogt’s influential hand.
• Seder opens with trademark sarcasm and frustration over current US crisis points:
  • “Do you want to eat or do you want health insurance? That’s the choice that they’re giving the American people.” (06:50)

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Spotlight: Russell Vogt – Who Is He?

Sam introduces Andy Kroll’s new deep-dive reporting on Russell Vogt—an under-the-radar MAGA operative with outsized influence. Once an obscure budget hawk, Vogt is now arguably more powerful and ideologically consistent than even Stephen Miller, spearheading a vision that weds government slashing with dogmatic Christian nationalism.

Key Details:

• Son of Christian school founders; mother led public campaigns to insert “Judeo-Christian values” into public education (22:38–24:21).
• Early Capitol Hill staffer; specialist in ‘how money moves’ in government—the technical expertise necessary to cut programs efficiently.
• Embodies both hard-edged fiscal extremism (“slash and burn”) and deep MAGA religious-cultural vision.

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Russell Vogt’s Ideology: Christian Nationalism Meets Fiscal Extremism

Kroll’s Analysis:

• Vogt frames existential threats to “the American experiment” around both secular culture and the “rottenness” of government.
• His worldview legitimizes, even mandates, aggressive dismantling of social safety net programs—Medicaid, USAID, Obamacare subsidies—by casting government as beyond repair unless remade on new, Christian nationalist terms.

"He would say that cutting these programs, shrinking the size of government, is what his side has to do to try to save America—in the way that they believe America should exist."
— Andy Kroll (25:00)

Seder’s Take:

• Seder raises the contradiction: “What is the relationship between that Christian nationalism…and the idea that we should strip the government of virtually all of its functions?”
• Kroll responds: Vogt sees no contradiction, casting drastic cuts—even at the cost of lives—as necessary, redemptive acts in defense of a higher cause.

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Vogt’s Methods: Constitutional Authority and Bureaucratic War

Expanding Executive Power

• Vogt has publicly and repeatedly argued that the President has far broader power to freeze, redirect, or eliminate Congressionally appropriated funds than established law allows.
• He openly relies on dubious legal theories (contradicting well-established SCOTUS precedent and statutes like the 1974 Impoundment Control Act).
• Example: Used (and continues to use) “impoundment” and “pocket rescissions” as strategic tools to immobilize programs disfavored by MAGA ideology.

"Russ Vogt has articulated on many occasions that he believes the President has much greater power than it is currently operating with.”
— Andy Kroll (27:53)

Seder interjects:

“There doesn't seem to be a mechanism in which to stop him because we now have the Supreme Court that essentially says, well, there may be problems with this, but nobody has a toehold in which to bring a case.”
— Sam Seder (29:38)

Vogt’s Post-2020 Influence: The “Shadow President”

• After Trump’s 2020 loss, instead of retreating or pivoting to think tank work, Vogt doubled down, founding the Center for Renewing America.
• He immediately started preparing for a second MAGA administration: assembling policy portfolios, drafting hundreds of executive orders/regulations (ready for day one), and continuing to rally allies.
• Kroll reveals that Vogt and allies learned from the chaos of Trump’s first term, building mechanisms to be more effective should they return to power.

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The Aftermath & Government Damage

Administrative Devastation

Seder asks:

“Do you have a sense of…how decimated our government is?” (41:31)

Kroll:

• Furloughs, uncertainty, and ongoing shutdowns have “cracked…if not shattered” the traditional ethos of federal government service.
• Beyond immediate effects, the psychological damage—the loss of institutional trust, talent drain (e.g. researchers at NIH leaving for Europe)—may last generations.
• The drive to dismantle agencies like the CFPB (Consumer Financial Protection Bureau), Department of Education, and FDA has eviscerated their functioning, sometimes for months at a time.

“The idea of working for the federal government…as steady, stable, reliable work…has been cracked in a very big way, if not shattered.”
— Andy Kroll (42:48)

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Vogt’s Relationship with the GOP & Shutdown Strategy

• Vogt is, according to Kroll, actively championing government shutdowns, calling them “valuable and important and useful to the conservative cause” by forcing crisis-driven negotiations.
• He is unpopular among Congressional Republicans, especially because his power plays trample their core legislative prerogatives (control of the purse).
• White House GOP allies have, in the current standoff, essentially “cut themselves out” and left Democrats to negotiate directly with Vogt and the White House.

“We need to have a speaker who has a love of the shutdowns, a love of the shutdowns, because the shutdowns are how we save the country.”
— Russell Vogt (via Andy Kroll) (46:09)

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Memorable Quotes & Moments

• On shutdown brinksmanship:
  “It’s easy for him to love the shutdown because it doesn’t impact him directly.”
  — Sam Seder (47:42)

• On government morale:
  “For some things, it’s too early to know how this is going to play out…conceptually, psychologically, there’s a lot of damage already done.”
  — Andy Kroll (45:07)

• On Vogt’s core worldview:
  “The Judeo-Christian worldview part is the real foundation for him and that the sort of budget wonk…is how you start to pick apart these programs or these agencies or go after individual government workers themselves.”
  — Andy Kroll (36:26–38:45)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• SNAP/Shutdown & opening context: 00:00–06:41
• “Cognitive Test” Trump/IQ segment (comic relief): 07:52–14:08
• Andy Kroll introduction and Russell Vogt background: 21:30–24:21
• Vogt’s Christian nationalist roots & fiscal ideology: 24:21–27:25
• Executive power, impoundment, legal context: 27:53–29:57
• Vogt’s influence post-2020 and shadow presidency: 32:41–35:31
• Culture war agenda & “woke and weaponized”: 36:26–38:45
• Dismantling agencies, administrative damage: 41:31–45:07
• The shutdown as calculated strategy: 46:09–47:42
• Congressional GOP dynamics: 47:42–48:50
• Closing & signoff: 49:25–end

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Tone & Style

The conversation is deeply analytical, occasionally sardonic, and politically urgent. Seder’s trademark wit punctuates and grounds the policy-heavy discussion in everyday stakes, while Kroll provides a methodical, evidence-based unpacking of Vogt’s ideology and operational methods.

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Conclusion

This episode provides an essential primer on how the fusion of Christian nationalism and hardline fiscal conservatism, embodied by Russell Vogt, is reshaping both the executive branch and the conservative movement’s strategy—not just in Trump-centric politics, but as an enduring institutional force. Andy Kroll’s insights paint Vogt not as a background bureaucrat, but as a pivotal driver of America’s government crisis and right-wing transformation.

Transcript

[A]

Hi folks. Today's episode is brought to you by one of my favorite sponsors. Sunsetlakesebaday.com use the code. Left is best. You will get 20% off. 20% off what? Sam? Well, tinctures. Tinctures that help you sleep. Tinctures that help you relax. Tinctures that help your pets relax. They've got gummies, gummies with Saba Day, gummies with Saba dan, Seba N, gummies with a little thc. They've got all sorts of gummies. They've got Sebede infused coffee and fudge. They've got smokables, keef and pre rolls and flour. All sorts of great Saba Day products, all third party tested, all grown without the use of pesticides. They use integrated pest management. They use regenerative farming practices up there in Vermont. They also have great business practices, $20 minimum wage, mostly employee owned company. And they are movement partners. They have donated tens of thousands of dollars to things like strike relief funds, refugee resettlement, Planned Parenthood, carceral reform, the list, go on and on. They're a great company. It's a great product. They've got lotions and solves and lifted tea, that's Brian's favorite. Just drink too. You would not be, you would not be sitting upright. Check it out. You will really enjoy it. Sunsetlake sabade.com use the code left is best. You will get 20% off. Now time for the show the Majority Report with Sam Cedar. It is Tuesday, October 28, 2025. My name is Sam Ceder. This is the five time award winning Majority Report. We are broadcasting live steps from the industrially ravaged Gowanus Canal in the heartland of America, Downtown Brooklyn, USA. On the program today, Andy Kroll, journalist at ProPublica, covering justice and the rule of law. On a deeper look into Russell Vogt, the crypto fascist shadow president. Also on the program, we are days away for 42 million Americans to lose nutrition support because Donald Trump and the Republicans have decided that's what they want to use for leverage to cut people's health insurance. Massive hurricane bearing down on Jamaica. The Texas AG sues Tylenol, claiming that Tylenol has been hiding autism risks. Good job. Meanwhile, US kills 14 more anonymous boaters in the eastern Pacific Ocean because apparently we can. Two Illinois National Guardsmen announced they're going to refuse to obey federalization orders to deploy in Chicago. Hopefully this is just the beginning. Trump's Consumer Financial Protection Bureau, incidentally acting chair of that Russell Vogt to issue a directive aimed at preventing States from wiping medical debt from credit reports New York Times following a Zateo documentary reveals that U.S. assessment of the killing of Shereen Abu Akla, Palestinian American journalist shot by The Israelis in 2022 downplayed that the Israelis did it deliberately. Trump regime is placing replacing ICE regional leaders with more aggressive Border Patrol officials. Remember, Border patrol operates within 100 miles of the border. ICE operates everywhere else. Amazon to lay off 30,000. Brad Lander and New York City Council member Alexa Aviles look to both challenge sitting Congressman Dan Goldman. This as early voting underway in New York City for the mayoral race. Apparently Gen Xers and Boomers first to the polls. All this and more on today's Majority Report. Welcome ladies and gentlemen. Emma Vigeland out. Today we are on day 28 of the shutdown. The administration is pretending now that they do not have the legal authority, of course they do, to provide for 42 million Americans receiving SNAP benefits, which of course is a meager sum to help people not starve. And a. We know that we talked about this yesterday. The contingency funds have been set aside, $5 billion. We know that it was on the website of the USDA up until like a day or two ago saying that the funds were available. We also know that this administration has been residual impounding funds meant for things and providing funds not meant to be provided for in a willy nilly fashion. So the idea that they couldn't fund SNAP is just simply a blatant lie.

[B]

We gotta follow the law.

[A]

And they are doing this in service.

[B]

Of.

[A]

Cutting health insurance for people. That's the leverage. Do you want to eat or do you want health insurance? That's the choice that they're giving the American people. We'll talk a little bit more about that later in the program. We got a lot to get to. This is. But this is. Let's have a moment of fun, a little bit of levity in the first half of the show. You will be happy to know that your president is not suffering from dementia. According to him, here he is on Air Force One explaining that he took an IQ test that shows that he's super intelligent. Apparently they did not tell him the test has been released that it wasn't an IQ test. It was just to see if he has dementia. But he's very excited that he thinks he passed.

[C]

A great group of people, which they don't. They have Jasmine Crockett, a low IQ person. They have AOCs, low IQ. You give her an IQ test, have her pass like the exams That I decided to take when I was at Walter Reed. I took. Those are very hard. They're really aptitude tests, I guess, at a certain point, but they're cognitive tests. Let AOC go against Trump. Let Jasmine go against Trump. I don't think Jasmine. The first couple of questions are easy. A tiger, an elephant, a giraffe. You know when you get up to about 5 or 6, and then when you get up to 10 and 20 and 25. They couldn't come close to answering any of those questions.

[A]

Pause it for one second. Did he say questions? Can you go back and like, isn't he. He's got some weird, like, denture, James Cagney type of like, thing going on. Let's just hear that again.

[C]

25. They couldn't come close to answering any of those questions.

[A]

He chose to take the test. Like, I know I'm here for an mri. Who knows why I would do that? Do you have a test I could take? Do you have a, like an IQ test or a cognitive test? And this is the Montreal Cognitive Assessment. Moca. Now, I have not seen this before, but apparently you guys want to give me the test, right? We'd like to administer to you the most. Is this number 10?

[B]

This is the first question.

[A]

This is the first question.

[B]

Well, and you know, this would be you drawing a clock of 10 past 11. We're going to assume you can do that. But let's get to the first question here. Okay, Do a little bit of service there. So can you name these from left to right?

[A]

Okay, so this is the easy part. I should say. All right, from left to right. So that's a lion, a rhinoceros, and a camel. One hump camel. Now, you notice I specifically nailed it as a one hump camel as opposed to a two hump camel. A lot of people make that mistake. They'll assume just a camel is necessarily has two humps or one hump.

[B]

Now for the next part. This is when it starts to get a little bit tough.

[A]

So, okay, now we're getting into focus.

[B]

This is. This is going to be me reading a list of words, and you must repeat them.

[D]

Oh, shit.

[B]

Okay, so I'm gonna start reading the five words. Face, velvet, church, daisy, red.

[A]

Face, velvet, church, daisy, red.

[B]

Okay, now the second.

[A]

Okay, but you can go a little slower.

[B]

Face velvet. We have to do two trials of this.

[D]

Okay?

[B]

Face, velvet, church, daisy, red.

[A]

Face, velvet, church, daisy, red.

[B]

Okay, now I'm gonna read a list of digits, and you have to repeat them in the forward order the way I Relate them forward order the way I give them.

[A]

Okay, so this is confusing.

[B]

Well, you know, this is the. This is the tough test that.

[A]

You want to be a genius or not?

[B]

Yeah. Are you stacking up the Trump or not? 2, 1, 8, 5, 4.

[A]

2, 1, 8, 5,.

[B]

Now, this one is gonna be three numbers, but you have to repeat them in reverse order.

[A]

7, 4, 2, 2, 4, 7.

[B]

Okay. All right. Now I'm going to read a list of letters. You must tap your hand, actually tap the microphone. I'm going to adjust, okay, the instructions here when I read the letter A. Okay. F, B, A, C, M, A, N, A, A, J, K, L, B, A, F, A, K, D, E, A, A, A, J, A, M, O, F, A, A, B. So I would say you got about.

[A]

It, but you were going so fast, I couldn't.

[B]

That's not fair.

[A]

65.

[B]

I mean, he said it got tougher.

[A]

I'd like to see Jasmine Crockett. Yeah, no, Jasmine Crockett is. She's dusted already.

[B]

Okay, now you AOC is still stuck.

[A]

On one hump Camel, two hump Camel. She can't handle this stuff.

[B]

Repeat after me, okay? I only know that John is the one to help today.

[A]

I only know that John is the one to help today.

[B]

Okay, I'll give you a point for that. The cat always get two. The cat always hid under the couch when dogs were in the room.

[A]

The cat always hid under the couch when dogs were in the room.

[B]

Let's do one final one. This is abstraction similarity between, eg, a banana and a fruit. Banana and orange would be fruit. So what's the similarity between train and a bicycle?

[A]

They're both modes of transportation.

[B]

Now, I don't have the answers for these, so I agree with you on that. What's the similarity between a watch and a ruler?

[A]

They demark units of. They demark units.

[B]

Okay, yes. That is the final test. You lost to Trump.

[A]

What are you. What are you talking about?

[B]

We don't actually.

[A]

That was it. Those are. That's. That's all iq. Welcome to Mensa, honey. I'm president. I'm president. You know, my uncle went to mit. I think it shows. Do you remember how quickly I said lion? Just like that?

[B]

The final question is, what's the date, month, year, date, where are you?

[A]

It's basically a field sobriety test. Exactly. I mean, the guy's been bragging about passing passing tests like that for a long time.

[B]

He said he volunteered to take it, like I wanted to take it.

[A]

He take this in the tests?

[B]

You know how apt I am.

[A]

I just don't think that they do random MRIs. Maybe they do. Maybe they just give him a random MRI just to see if there's anything like a full body scan. But I'm feeling frisky today. I just take a look under the.

[D]

Hood.

[B]

Imagine him like sliding into the mri.

[A]

Oh my God. I think they're gonna have to do some type of wraparound. In a moment we're gonna be talking to Andy Kroll. He is a writer for ProPublica. He's been writing about Russell Vogt for a long time. And you know, we've been talking about Russell Vote for a long time. But I have to say that there's a lot of stuff in this piece that I found new and interesting. So we will talk to him about that in a moment. First off, why do most of us want to learn a new language? It's probably not about memorizing grammar tables or topping a leaderboard. Is because we want to speak it out in the real world with real people. And Babel gets you there fast. I've been like pressing myself to learn more Spanish just basically because of everything I'm seeing with ice or, and, and, or I mean if we all have to try and sneak across the border into Mexico. Learning a language babble is all about small steps, big wins and progress. You can actually track and feel. 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That's hellofresh.com/majority10fm to get 10 free meals. Check it out. We'll put the link in the podcast and YouTube description. All right, now take a quick break. Andy Kroll, journalist at ProPublica covering justice in the rule Law, on his deep dive into Russell Vote. We'll be right back after this. We are back. Sam Cedar on the Majority Report. Want to welcome back to the program Andy Kroll. He is an investigative reporter at ProPublica. And Andy, you've been on the Russell Vote beat for a while. And this is, I mean, I feel like over the past year, I mean, I think we even spoke in the run up to the inauguration. And he has done everything, I think on some level that I know that you had predicted or talked about and we had been talking about here and you did a deep dive into this guy and really you've pegged him as the shadow president. It really does feel like between him and Stephen Miller, that's the entire agenda. But let's start with this. What I found really interesting in your piece, or at least one of the things, aside from sort of like the disturbing origins of Russell Vogt, was that he was a lot more happy about Doge than I think certainly at the time that I had assumed he was. But before we get there, give us the background of Russ Vogt because I also learned through your piece that he's a lot more of a social, a cultural warrior than I think I had anticipated based upon just his role in the office budget management.

[D]

Yeah, it's great to be back as always. This was actually kind of a revelation for me as well. He, I think even more than Stephen Miller brings together merges the sort of fiscal hawk slash and burn, Doge esque policy stuff on one side and then the kind of MAGA culture warrior, Christian nationalist approach, vision ethos as well in a way that not a lot of people do. The, the, the, the, the cultural religious stuff we trace all the way back to the beginning. Like the literal beginning is his family upbringing. His mom in particular was founding Christian schools and was speaking to the press. We're going Back into like the 80s here, talking about the importance of, like, teaching biblical principles in public education, talking about how if the country moves away from, you know, what she described as the Judeo Christian values, principles, whatever teachings that the country is going to descend into disease, anarchy, sin. I mean, it's really dystopic view. So you have that piece that again, the foundation for him seems to be laid very early, like we're talking when he was a kid. And then you have the shrink the government down to size, slash government programs, cut up the social safety net. And I think that that foundation is laid when he's working on Capitol Hill as a young staffer all the way up to a senior advisor. And he really sort of develops this expertise in how the government works, where the money goes, how it flows, and how you could cut it off if you had the power to.

[A]

I was struck by one moment in the piece where they have come to him and said, you know, people are going to die if you cut usaid. And he said, well, you could say that about any program that we have. Which, okay, that may be true, but it sort of misses the point how what is the relationship between that Christian nationalism and he's an avowed Christian nationalist, that Christian nationalism and the idea that we should strip the government of virtually all of its functions.

[D]

It's probably the first thing I would have asked him if he would have said yes to any of the like five interview requests that I put in over a course of months, most of this year so far. How do you square your religious worldview, the teachings that come with that, with this desire to slash programs that in a lot of cases you can measure, people have measured, less funding means greater harms. In some cases, less funding means people will die at a higher rate. I think reading into what he believes, what he says, what he's written, which I did a lot of in this piece. The piece draws on, you know, dozens of hours of previously unpublished, you know, new speeches that he'd given, briefings that he had led a lot of behind the scenes stuff that no one has heard or seen before. And the way he seems to frame it is that the government, in his view, has gotten to this post, constitutional, corrupted, rotten place. It has completely gone off the rails from what the founders intended in that if people like him don't go in and take these drastic measures, firing tens of, if not hundreds of thousands of federal workers, freezing government programs, unilaterally slashing funding that in some cases could lead to greater fatalities, that America as a country will Collapse. You know, he said going into the 2024 election, we quote him as saying this, that you know, that election 2024 shouldn't be thought of as like on a scale of 1980 or some more contemporary contest, it should be thought of as like 1864 should be thought of as this is the election that we have to win, we conservatives, maga, et cetera, or else the American experiment explodes, collapses. The country is lost. So I guess if you look at these questions of why would you want to cut Medicaid, which is so clearly beneficial to low income families around the country, undoubtedly will lead to poor poorer outcomes, including death. He would say that cutting these programs, shrinking the size of government is what his side has to do to try to save America in the way that they believe America should exist. That's the best answer I have without asking him directly.

[A]

Right. Well, I hate to put you in the position of him again, but how do you think that he reconciles this idea with of impoundment, which is what he's doing, or rescission, which is what he's doing. And the opposite, I can't remember what the term is for it, where you actually sort of redirect funds that have not been appropriated by Congress. How does he reconcile that with the Constitution?

[D]

Another very good question though, this one again, there is a pretty voluminous record of his views on why he thinks the President has these powers. And let's be clear, Article 1 of the Constitution, power of the purse belongs to Congress. Congress writes the laws, appropriates the money. Article two says the Executive. The President must quote, unquote, take care to faithfully implement the laws that Congress has passed as Congress has passed them in the way that that has been interpreted for a very long time. The way that most legal scholars, including the late conservative Justice Antonin Scalia, have interpreted the Constitution this way is that the President doesn't have the ability to say, well I don't agree with this law that Congress passed, I don't agree with the funding to support it. So I'm just going to freeze it. I'm just going to hold it back because it doesn't align with my vision. That is not how checks and balances, separations of power. Separation of powers has worked in this country. However, Russ Vote has articulated on many occasions that he believes the President has, the Executive has much greater power than it is currently operating with. That the President does have the essentially unilateral authority to say, I think this money is wasteful, I think this money is woke. I think this money is going to our programs that shouldn't exist. I am going to pause them, I'm going to redirect them, or use these sort of budgetary gimmicks like the quote, unquote pocket rescission to essentially zero out the money and prevent it from being spent. And, you know, this is a very contested theory. And I think what he wants is.

[A]

To have tested theory. Yeah, we have the 19 was a 74 impoundment act statutory authority. We have had multiple. I think not only have we had Supreme Court cases that have enforced the Impoundment Act, I think it was a New York City v. Train.

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

But we also had the Supreme Court rule that line item vetoes, which is essentially a rescission. Right. Where the President says, okay, well, I'm taking this out of the budget. I don't believe in it is also unconstitutional. Like, to me, there's no controversy about this. It's only controversial in the sense that, like, he's decided that he can do it and there's nobody stopping him. And there doesn't seem to be a mechanism in which to stop him because we now have the Supreme Court that essentially says, well, there may be problems with this, but nobody has a toehold in which to bring a case. Let's go back a little bit. In his first term, he essentially sort of like pilot program this with Ukraine aid.

[D]

Correct.

[A]

What I found sort of striking was when Hillary Clinton lost, there was a lot of people who were in sort of like the think tank world, the bureaucratic world, who were like, all our projects are out the window and I'm going to move on in some other way when he loses in 2020 and gets booted out and is not able to sort of fully realize his, I mean, Christian nationalist merged with a Supreme Leader, which maybe isn't too, too different, distinct from each other sort of world vision. He doesn't go like, bummer, I'm never going to have another Donald Trump again. I mean, like, I wouldn't have bet my career in 2020 after Biden wins that I'm going to get another bite at this apple. But he went immediately off and just started sort of like getting prepared to bite at this apple again. Is that just a function of, like, there's so much money with the Heritage foundation that a guy could afford to do that. Right. Like, I mean, if this, like, if it reversed and, you know, Bernie Sanders gets in for four years in 2020, you know, in 2016, and it. They don't get to implement their stuff I think people would be like, okay, that's it, I gotta wrap this up. Now. Donald Trump's been elected and we've gone a completely different direction because there's no sort of support for a Russell Vote type like a bureaucrat ideologue to sort of like then get on some type of sinecure.

[D]

It's a really striking moment in the arc of his career and really one that I think helps explain a lot of why he's been so empowered, influential. Now January 6, 2021 happens and you see an exodus of senior Trump administration folks, including people in the cabinet. We forget like Betsy DeVos. I mean, no one's idea of like a squishy moderate says no, no, no, this is it, I'm out right to not bed and leaves vote does the exact opposite. He stands by Trump. He goes on to say all the same things about a stolen election and you know, the political prisoners unjustly targeted by the Justice Department who participated in the January 6 riots says all that sort of stuff. But more importantly, within days of Trump leaving office, he launches this think tank, the center for Renewing America, and he starts building the groundwork for a potential second Trump term. Now, when you listen to the briefings, the behind the scenes conversations that we got recordings of, you know, you notice in like 21 and 22, there's like a little bit of a mention of Ron DeSantis. Oh, well, Ron DeSantis. I mean, you know, he's, he's there too. But it's pretty obvious almost from the beginning that this is a Trump focused project and that they are Vote is working to keep the MAGA torch aflame and to essentially take all the lessons from Trump. One, learn those lessons, metabolize them in a certain sense to prepare for what a second Trump presidency would look like and how to avoid all that chaos, all that disorganization, all the mistakes that they made, including the whole Ukraine impoundment debacle that led to Trump's impeachment. We have Vote on tape saying that they were writing the quote unquote, actual executive orders, actual regulations and other legal authorities for our second Trump presidency, that they had drafted some 350 orders, regulations and other documents that could be used by a future President Trump literally on day one. And of course, that's what Trump ended up doing on day one. He sat in Capitol one arena at his desk on the stage and was handed executive order after executive order and signed them all right there in front of his adoring fans. I don't think that all of this happens if you don't have Russ Vogt toiling, you know, in his years of exile, to use his own phrase, for four years to prepare for that moment should Trump win again.

[A]

I want to get into sort of like, you know, what's actually he's been doing since the beginning of the year. But one other aspect about him that sort of fascinates me or, you know, we've mentioned it briefly, but the, the, the clips of him, I was really surprised about the clips of him. Like, you saw how virulent he was about CRT and anti trans stuff and saying that the country's too secular because I view him as this sort of ruthless bureaucrat. And it seems like he really believes this stuff. This is not like how does the sort of economic ideology and his sort of social ideology, how are they self reinforcing, I guess within the context of the conservative movement.

[D]

They'Re self reinforcing in a few ways. One is this kind of talking point attack line that he helped coin woke and weaponized. This was a project of his during those Biden years when he was out of government, where he comes up with this phrase woke and weaponized that gets used to tag government policies, agencies, individual, you know, lawyers, bureaucrats who are seen as, you know, anti Trump or part of this larger, you know, corrupted federal government as vote sees it. And that is used to apply to both the budget spending side of things, but also used to apply to dei, used to apply to trans rights, used to apply to, you know, a broader notion of religious diversity. And this, you know, the cultural piece gets kind of wrapped into woke and weaponized in the same way that the sort of, the spending, the deep state, you know, the, the, the DOJ going after Donald Trump get months into that as well. So it's really interesting to see it that way. But I, I think that he would say, he has said again in some of these recordings that we have that the Judeo Christian worldview part is the real foundation for him and that the sort of budget wonk, green eye shade, spreadsheet nerd piece of it is how you start to pick apart these programs or these agencies or go after individual government workers themselves who are opposed to or who are seen as incompatible with the Judeo Christian worldview. I do think that's the wellspring for him. And, and again, the reporting in this story really helped me understand how much of that informs his worldview writ large. And when he's sort of behind the scenes talking to his own people, he really leans into the cultural and the religious stuff even more than the, you know, government program dismantler side of what he does.

[A]

Let's talk a little bit about Doge. My sense at the, you know, at the time was that Doge was sort of like interfering with his plans. And maybe they were to a certain extent, but from, from your reporting, he was largely happy because it sounds like what Doge did from his perspective was go in and essentially till the land a little bit and loosen up the soil so that he could go in there and really be more surgical.

[D]

Yeah, that's a good metaphor, a good way to think about it. This was a real sort of reporting question for me from the beginning. Where does Russ Votes project end and where does Doge begin? How do I understand the interplay there? Again, you know, Vogt has found himself kind of partnered onto something led by a leader that is so incompatible with so much of what he believes in the way that Donald Trump is, at least on a personal level, so different from Russ Feldman. Russell is a deacon at his local Baptist church. You know, he's by no means a sort of like influencer, you know, edgelord out there on the Internet. He's, and he's certainly not like Elon Musk in so many ways. But I think there are specific instances where Doge workers kind of fall under votes direction, like at the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau, this agency born out of Elizabeth Warren's vision to protect consumers after the 08 financial crisis. And he uses Doge to brutal effect in trying to dismantle CFPB as fast as possible. There is some collaboration there with USAID between Vote, OMB and Doge, but really it's getting to the tilling of the earth part that you mentioned. As Vote himself has said, Doge came in, these tech bros didn't know anything about government. They didn't know anything about the laws that govern how you change things in the government or not. They just kind of battering ran their way through and let the pieces fall wherever and let the lawsuits come. Who cares? Come at me, bro. And I think that that represented this kind of status quo smashing moment or this paradigm shift, or however you want to describe it in a way that I don't think Vote maybe thought he could or, or, or even if he thought he could, he just didn't think that that was the right strategy. But Doge showed a different path and I think that that cleared the way for Vote to do even more aggressive things then maybe he would have in the first place if Doge hadn't been there.

[A]

I feel like Vote in the past week or two has said, like, we're a month or two away from closing the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau. Give me your sense of, like, how decimated our government is. I mean, I don't know, you know, this is a little bit outside of your specifically in the reporting of. But it's hard, I think, for people to sort of see the implications of 7, 8 of the Department of Education or 7/8 of the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau or, you know, huge swaths of the USDA or the FDA or I mean, we can go on and on and on, essentially being furloughed. I mean, a lot of these people have been furloughed, never mind the government shutdown. They've been furloughed for eight months, seven months. Like, do you have a sense of, I mean, how would you characterize the shape of our government now and what it's going to take, if it's possible to rebuild it to like even, I mean, you know, what the rebuilding is going to be? I mean, we're, you know, in the event that we have the opportunity for it.

[D]

It's a really good question and one that I thought about a lot as I got really deep into this story. And actually it came out of a conversation with a former government employee that I talked to. Real smart, real smart guy who is also smart enough to leave before all this went down. But there, you know, the idea of working for the federal government as not the most renumerative or glamorous, but as steady, stable, reliable work that helps you, that lets you serve your country, the sort of concept of that, I think, has been cracked in a very big way, if not shattered. And I don't know if you can completely rebuild that, because I think the people who held that view and then saw that view smashed up are going to constantly think, well, does the next, you know, Republican administration, to be frank, are they going to just do what Doge did or what Russ Vogt did? Like, am I never safe in this job again in the way that I thought I am? So I think there's, there's a real, there's real damage done to the idea of government service and what that entailed. And can you make a career out of that, as a lot of people in this country do, really long tradition of doing that makes one of the things that's so great about our country. And then you have the different programmatic pieces I wonder about. You know, the nih, for instance, there's been machinations there about freezing and unfreezing really vital funding that goes out to researchers that, who are the cutting edge medical researchers in the world. And they're in our country in large part because the NIH funds them to do work that no one else will. I don't know if those researchers feel that, wow, like everything has changed, I won't be able to do my research. But I do think they feel an insecurity now that they never had under Democrats or Republicans. And if this goes on for another three years and three months, then maybe they really do think I'm going to.

[A]

Go, I'm going to go to Europe. Right, Right.

[D]

Some already have.

[A]

Right?

[D]

Some already have.

[A]

Yeah.

[D]

But it's, it's, I, I think for some things, it's too early to know how this is going to play out. Obviously, this shutdown battle, if the Obamacare subsidies are not brought back, the impact of that is very big right now and will really have a ripple effect and put a big dent in this landmark law. But I think conceptually, psychologically, there's a lot of damage already done that will take a long time to repair, if ever. Programmatically, it's still early and it depends on what happens over the rest of this administration.

[A]

I wanted to ask you lastly about the shutdown. Like, what do you, what do you think based upon your reporting, Russell Vogt is thinking about this shutdown? Is he, was he excited about this or does this in any way disrupt his plans? Because, I mean, he was on a roll. And I'm curious as to your perspective on this.

[D]

I think he absolutely relished the chance to have this shut down and probably pushed for it behind the scenes. And I wouldn't be surprised if he continued to push for remaining in the shutdown. I say that because, again, I rely on his own words. During the Biden years, in these briefings that he gave to supporters of his, he talked repeatedly about why shutdowns are valuable and important and useful to the conservative cause. At one point, he's talking with his supporters, the 2022 midterms had happened, and they're talking about who the next speaker for the Republicans should be. Russ about not a Kevin McCarthy fan will not shock anyone. But anyway, he says we need to have a speaker who has a love of the shutdowns, a love of the shutdowns, because the shutdowns are how we save the country. How we save the country. He sees these shutdowns as the ultimate brinksmanship negotiation, period, where you can get all the things, you know, on the bargaining table, get the concessions that you can't get during the normal order of Congress. So that just plainly leads me to believe he's getting exactly what he wants right now. And Donald Trump has put him out front, his grim reaper, his Darth Vader, to use Trump's turn to lead the strategy on this shutdown.

[A]

Where does that leave him with Republican lawmakers? Because it's easy for him to love the shutdown because he's not. It doesn't impact him directly.

[D]

Based on all the conversations I've had, the reporting I've done, his relationship with congressional Republicans is poor to say the least. They don't like him outside of shutdowns, saying I'm freezing this funding, I'm trying this pocket decision. I mean, he's trampling on their fundamental Article 1 authority, the number one job that Congress has. He's essentially saying, oh, I'm going to step all over it, I'm going to get in the way of it. I don't care. I'm sick of dealing with Republicans. So I think that they are generally not pleased with how the White House and the OMB has treated Congress. And I think that this shutdown is just another moment where congressional Republicans have essentially thrown up their hands and said Democrats, you got a problem, Go talk to Ross Vogt, go talk to the White House. They've essentially cut themselves out of this whole thing in a really remarkable way we haven't seen before.

[A]

Yeah, I think it's remarkable too because the Democrats aren't necessarily, they're not preventing them from cutting themselves out of this equation which I think from a political standpoint this is the pressure that you put them. You Russ vote is a rock and their voters are a hard place and that's where the Democrats got to put them. Andy Kroll, a really interesting in depth reporting. Really appreciate you coming on and talking about it. We'll put a link to this piece at in the podcast and YouTube description.

[D]

Thanks for having me as always.

[A]

We are back and we are going to head into the fun half. It's my goal today to do it under an hour. Impressive, right? 15 years in the making it honestly the mission creep of the show has been pretty spectacular over the course the past 15 years folks. It's your support that makes this show possible. You can become a [e-mail] when you do, you not only get the free show free of commercials, but you also get the fun half. And as a member you can IM us and we're working on some New things in the app that you may like so become a member now. Help this show survive and thrive. Also, don't forget Just Coffee. It's a co op, so it's just coffee co op. A co op from Madison, Wisconsin. They really help out their farmers suppliers whether in Chiapas or in East Africa. Check out just Coffee cop. You can get the Majority Report blend. Also our merch, the Emma majority T shirts are back. Limited time, of course. What do you got, like slate gray and light blue?

[D]

Yes.

[A]

Check them out. Ladies and gentlemen, the Emma Majority Emma Jordy EmmaJordy shirt. Emmajority shirts, limited edition, pre order available now. As well as the hats. That is my go to incidentally, Majority report hat.

[B]

The Max left.

[A]

No, the one that says a majority. Yeah, because it's not as it's embarrassing to walk around with a hat with your own name on it.

[B]

Trump might make Max left illegal, so might need to buy that one.

[A]

I would get that Max left hat as soon as possible. Shout out to a few people at the Zoron rally. We're waving it at me and Emma. Oh, really? Yeah. That's funny. Check it out. Also, don't forget we have a discord. Ladies and gentlemen, majoritydiscord.com Great place to go if you want to really talk about anything, if you want ideas on how to organize, if you want to try and hook up with people in your A neighborhood, so to speak. Also, I would imagine going to be continuing to be a better and better resource as your city gets invaded by National Guard. This story, we'll talk about it in a bit about two national guardsmen in Illinois saying that they will not deploy to Chicago. Very important because I think once a couple of these guys speak out, more will be able to going forward. But again, majority Discord. Great place to get some ideas for organizing, maybe organize in and of itself. So check that out. And also, as always, want to thank our Twitch watchers. Poggers, I don't want to get a hype train going.

[B]

I mean, we're getting enough, especially on the replay. We're getting what we used to get on YouTube like, like five years ago. Like dang, tens of thousands of people watching the vods.

[A]

All right. Love it, love it. Poggers. Hype train. Hype train. Matt, what's happening on Left Reckoning?

[B]

Yeah, tonight we're getting into the ideas portion with Michael Burns of philosophy youtuber, former professor. We're going to be talking, we're just getting into the heady stuff. So check that out tonight, 7 o' clock Eastern. Over 50,000 people subscribe. Also on Twitch. Go subscribe to Literate or Left Reckoning on Twitch as well.

[A]

Fig says, please let Emma and Brian know that I absolutely love their 1930s detectives cosplay they did for the Zoran rally. What were you doing? Were you wearing a fedora? Well, Emma did have like a detective trench coat on. That trench coat. Yes. I was wondering what was going on.

[B]

With that real gumshoe.

[A]

And I was dressed like a Hicks. Right? Out of the way, Woods. So you were not wearing a costume? No, I was. I was being my true self. But how is that. Well, how Is that a 1930 detective?

[B]

I think it's just the Carmen San Diego ness of Emma's coat.

[A]

Okay. See you in the fun half. Three months from now, six months from now, nine months from now. And I don't think it's going to be the same as it looks like in six months from now. Months from now. And I don't know if it's necessarily going to be better six months from now than it is three months from now, but I think around 18 months out, we're going to look back and go like, wow.

[B]

What?

[A]

What is that going on? It's nuts. Wait a second. Hold on. Hold on for a second. Emma. Welcome to the program.

[D]

Hat.

[A]

Fun hack. What is up? Everyone? Fun hack. No M. You did it. Fun hack.

[D]

Let's go, Brandon.

[A]

Let's go, Brandon. Fun hack. Bradley, you want to say hello? Sorry to disappoint everyone. I'm just a random guy. It's all the boys today. Fundamentally false.

[D]

No.

[A]

I'm sorry.

[D]

Women.

[A]

Stop talking for a second. Let me finish. Where is this coming from? Dude. But. Dude, you want to smoke this seven egg?

[D]

Yes. Hi.

[A]

Me?

[C]

This.

[A]

Yes.

[C]

Is this me?

[A]

Is it me? It is you.

[C]

Is this me?

[D]

Hello.

[A]

It's me. I think it is you. Who is you.

[D]

Up.

[A]

No sound. Every single freaking day. What's on your mind? We can discuss free markets and we can discuss capitalism. I'm gonna go snow white. Libertarians.

[B]

They're so stupid.

[A]

Though common sense says.

[D]

Of course.

[A]

Gobbledygook. We nailed him. So what's 79 plus 21 challenge?

[D]

Man. I'm positively quivering.

[A]

I believe 96. I want to say. 8 5, 7, 2, 1, 0, 8.

[B]

35.

[A]

501, 1 half.

[B]

3, 8, 9, 11. For instance.

[A]

$3,400.

[D]

$1,900.

[A]

5, 4. $3 trillion.

[B]

Sold.

[A]

It's a zero sum game.

[D]

Actually.

[A]

You're making me think less. But. But let me say this. You can call it satire. Sam goes in. Satire. On top of it all, my favorite part about you is just like every day, all day, like everything you do. Without a doubt. Hey, buddy, we see you. All right, folks, folks, folks. It's just the week being weeded out, obviously. Yeah. Sun's out, guns out. I, I, I don't know, but you should know.

[B]

People just don't like to entertain ideas anymore.

[A]

I have a question. Who cares?

[B]

Our chat is enabled, folks.

[A]

I love it. I do love that. Gotta jump, gotta be quick. I gotta jump. I'm losing it, bro. Two o', clock, we're already late, and the guy's being a dick. So screw him. Sent to a gulag.

[D]

Outrageous.

[A]

Like, what is wrong with you?

[D]

Love you. Bye.

[A]

Love you.

[D]

Bye.

[A]

Bye.