3626 - Epstein's Arms Deal, Intelligence Connections with Israel w/ Murtaza Hussain

Summary

Podcast Summary

The Majority Report with Sam Seder

Episode 3626 – Epstein’s Arms Deal, Intelligence Connections with Israel w/ Murtaza Hussain
Date: November 17, 2025

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Overview

In this episode, host Sam Seder and co-host Emma Vigeland are joined by investigative journalist Murtaza Hussain (Drop Site News) for an in-depth conversation about Jeffrey Epstein’s intricate global dealings—specifically his role as a broker in international arms sales and intelligence operations involving Israel and other nations. The discussion draws from Hussain’s ongoing reportage, a trove of leaked emails, and emerging official records to explore Epstein’s position in elite, transnational networks operating above the law.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Epstein as a Global Political Fixer

• Epstein’s activities went far beyond sex trafficking, embroiling him in global arms deals, money laundering, and facilitating backchannel diplomacy (27:09).
• He coordinated secret talks and business arrangements for the Israeli government and defense sector, with projects spanning Africa (Cote d’Ivoire), Mongolia, Syria, Russia, and more.
• Quote:

  “Epstein was somebody who… played a role as a fixer and dealmaker… He helped seed, or you could say orchestrate, backchannel diplomacy between the Israeli government and other governments.”
  – Murtaza Hussain (27:09)

2. The Maxwell Connection & Intelligence

• Epstein’s partnership with Ghislaine Maxwell was integral, with her father Robert Maxwell’s ties to Israeli intelligence and moneyed elites setting a precedent and likely providing key connections (28:13; 28:35).
  • Robert Maxwell’s legacy: instrumental in global intelligence, arms, and financial schemes; speculation that Epstein assumed his network and methods.
• Notable Connection:
  • The model involved approaching insecure governments and offering them lucrative defense and surveillance technologies, then finalizing security accords at the state level later.
• Quote:

  “It seems that after Maxwell’s death, Epstein inherited that role… acting a lot like Maxwell did, basically acting as a fixer for Israeli government officials.”
  – Murtaza Hussain (28:35)

3. Epstein’s Relationships with Israeli Government & Ehud Barak

• A trove of hacked emails between Epstein and Ehud Barak (former Israeli Prime Minister/Defense Minister) forms the backbone of much reporting.
  • Barak relied on Epstein for making lucrative connections post-public service; Epstein advised on and arranged deals for Israeli tech and defense firms internationally (33:04; 37:15).
  • Barak viewed as subordinate in dynamic—Epstein appears as the senior “power broker.”
• Quote:

  “Barak, at that time, was one of the most influential people in the Israeli political and security establishment. He was looking up to Epstein… eager for Epstein’s attention.”
  – Murtaza Hussain (37:57)

4. Arms Dealings, Iran-Contra, and Money Laundering

• Epstein was connected to notorious arms dealer Adnan Khashoggi and linked to shadowy institutions like BCCI, indicating long-standing ties to global illicit finance networks (40:17).
• Epstein specialized in money laundering—for intelligence services, governments, and private clients.
• Possible involvement in major geopolitical events (e.g., the Iraq War) suspected but not fully substantiated.

5. The Mechanics & Apparatus of Epstein’s Operations

• The shocking breadth and depth of Epstein’s social/business dealings outstripped what any single person could organically create, hinting at possible unseen apparatus or staff (53:17–55:21).
  • Questions remain about the exact nature of Epstein’s organization, the roles of staff (especially Ghislaine Maxwell), and why so few insiders have spoken out.

6. Money Laundering & Blackmail: Speculation and Evidence

• New email evidence suggests Trump acted as a “Trojan buyer” for laundering purchases by others (42:18; 43:42).
• Surveillance and potential blackmail: Epstein recorded much, but solid evidence of organized blackmail remains circumstantial (44:52–45:54).
• Hussain posits that for many, proximity to Epstein was carrot enough—his access, social cache, and money trumped any need for coercion.

7. A Window into the Global Billionaire Class

• Epstein operated above the state level, representing and networking among a tiny transnational elite whose interests, resources, and perceived immunity were virtually limitless (50:53–53:17).
• There is a culture of impunity and hubris, with laws and morality seen as irrelevant to their operations.

8. Hubris, Security, and Evidence of Impunity

• Despite undertaking world-shaping deals—and spectacularly illegal acts—Epstein and his circle often used unsecured, regular email (68:25–71:11).
  • Hussain perceives in their giddy carelessness a sense that they were simply untouchable—the law did not apply to them.
• Quote:

  “I don’t think they felt necessarily a great fear from the public or fear from accountability of any sort. …A great sense of impunity.”
  – Murtaza Hussain (69:20)

9. Sex Trafficking as a Subtext and Integrative Glue

• While much focus has been on sex crimes, in these records the trafficking appears as both part of the business (networking and mutual assurance) and an unspoken layer underlying high-level financial schemes (66:27).
• The same sense of impunity governs both shady finance and shocking criminality.
• Quote:

  “They clearly didn’t look at these girls or women as, you know, as human beings. …It’s like, we’re humans and everything else is just things for us to exploit.”
  – Sam Seder (72:25)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

| Timestamp | Speaker | Quote / Moment | |-----------|---------|----------------| | 27:09 | Murtaza Hussain | “Epstein was somebody who was very much involved in global politics. You could say he was a fixer and dealmaker...” | | 28:35 | Murtaza Hussain | “It seems that almost that Epstein, upon Maxwell’s death, he sort of inherited that role…” | | 37:57 | Murtaza Hussain | “If anything, it seemed like the Mossad was working for him.” | | 53:17 | Murtaza Hussain | “He seemed to represent a class of people who were above all these governments...” | | 69:20 | Murtaza Hussain | “I think there was a great sense of impunity reigning at that time...given the way he lived and the people around him lived...” | | 72:25 | Sam Seder | “There is a cohort of people living amongst us, but they’re not living amongst us. They are operating under an entirely different set of rules.” |

Particularly Revealing Exchange:

• (62:49):
  Hussain recounts an email revealing Epstein nudging Barak to spot opportunities for profit among global upheaval.
  • Epstein email: “All over the world...there is this great upheaval and people in power are very insecure and afraid. Isn’t this perfect for you?”
  • Barak: “Yes, but it’s not easy to turn into a cash flow. Something for us to discuss on Saturday.”
    — Summing up the exploitative, opportunistic nature of their collaboration.

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Segment Timestamps

• Epstein’s Activities Beyond Sex Trafficking: 27:09–31:15
• Maxwell, Intelligence & Israeli Arms Deals: 28:35–35:21
• Ehud Barak Emails & Israeli Relations: 33:04–37:57
• Arms Dealing, Adnan Khashoggi, Money Laundering: 40:01–42:18
• The Apparatus/Staff Structure: 53:17–55:21
• Money Laundering, Blackmail, Compromat: 44:52–47:10
• Elite Culture & Global Billionaire Class: 50:53–53:17
• Impunity & Use of Regular Email: 68:25–71:11
• Integration of Sex Trafficking, Business & Networking: 66:27
• Implications of Untouchable Elite: 72:25–74:01

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Tone and Style

The discussion is characterized by a mixture of irreverence, exasperation, and methodical insight—reflecting The Majority Report’s trademark blend of skepticism and humor when confronting the machinations of global elites. Seder and Vigeland probe for clarity amid labyrinthine details, while Hussain provides sober, carefully evidenced answers suffused with wary speculation, cautioning about unproven (but plausible) elements.

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Key Takeaways

• Jeffrey Epstein’s reach far exceeded the boundaries of criminal sex trafficking; he was a go-between and dealmaker for the global elite, with Israel and its intelligence apparatus as steady beneficiaries.
• Maxwell’s and Khashoggi’s influence, institutional connections, and methods were likely foundational for Epstein’s ascent.
• Global law is secondary to wealthy, hyper-connected transnational actors; impunity, not accountability, reigns at the top.
• The story is still unfolding, with significant leaks and ongoing reporting—but the full “elephant” of Epstein’s power and connections remains only partially glimpsed.

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For more on the Drop Site News series and to follow up on this reporting, see the links provided in the episode.

Transcript

[Sam Seder]

Hey folks, today's episode brought to you by my favorite sponsor sunsetlakeseba day.com and you'll notice I am hiding the coupon code. Why?

[Emma Vigeland]

Hi. Ding. Nothing.

[Sam Seder]

Why am I hiding it? Because our friends at Sunset Lake know it's not easy to be thankful these days. So they want wanted to extend their thanks to this show, our amazing listeners and a special shout out to Brian for all the lifted tea love.

[Murtaza Hussein]

Yeah, I've had about 47 of them so it's pretty nice of him. I love tea.

[Sam Seder]

Yeah. The holidays are coming up which means less daylight, colder temperatures and a little extra stress on top of an already nutty year. As we wind down 2025, you deserve rest and recharge. Thankfully our friends at Sunset Lake have kicked off their Black Friday sale. Right now you can save 30% site wide when you head to sunsetlakezebade.com as you can see here and use the code Friday to 5. That's the word Friday. The numbers 2, 5, no spaces. They got everything you need to chill out, catch your breath this holiday season. Tinctures that help you sleep. Gummies that help you sleep. Or make it a what hilarious time.

[Emma Vigeland]

I hate you guys.

[Sam Seder]

Even smokeables like Keith and pre rolls flower. Honestly folks, great company, great product. It'll be the highlight of your year. I can't read the copy because I get tears in my eyes. Honestly can't read.

[Emma Vigeland]

What is going on? Do you want me to finish?

[Sam Seder]

You get a bonus I think for 100 if you spend $125 but I can't tell what it is. No, it's the orange. It's the citrus flavored 750 milligram 7. I can't read the call to action because I can't see it. Head over to sunsetlake7day.com use the code Friday 25. Friday 25 and you'll save 30%. So it's like 2025 Friday but you'll save 30% on all of their wellness products for people and pets. They have tinctures for pets. This sale ends December 1st at 11:59pm Eastern. See their site for full terms and conditions. Now time for the show the Majority Report with Sam Cedar. It is Monday, November 17, 2025. My name is Sam Seder. This is the five time award winning Majority Report. We are broadcasting live steps from the industrially ravaged Gowanus Canal in the heartland of America, downtown Brooklyn, usa. On the program today, Murtaza Hussein, journalist covering the national security and foreign affairs at dropsite news on their series of Jeffrey Epstein's involvement with Israeli officials buying, selling weapons all across the world. Also on the program today, Trump reverses. Says House Republicans should vote to release Epstein files. Meanwhile, Trump floats Venezuela talks as the largest aircraft carrier in the world. A US One arrives off of Venezuela's coast. ICE invade Charlotte, North Carolina, as results from Chicago show ICE is avoiding criminals and simply going after working immigrants. And moms snap resumes. States gear up to boot, many off of assistance because of the big beautiful bill. Sparse data showing growing economic woes throughout the country. Taco Trump rolls rolls back tariffs exemptions on grocery food items. Meanwhile, USDA data inadvertently refutes Trump's promise of more Chinese soybean purchases. Trump floats a meeting with Mamdani as Hochul contemplates raising corporate taxes to help with Mamdani's agenda.

[Emma Vigeland]

That's a reversal.

[Sam Seder]

Trump administration a drop Biden era plan to make airlines compensate for delayed flights, of course. And lastly, Schumer retirement rumor, followed by a renewed call for him to step down as leader. Now all this and more on today's Majority Report. Welcome, ladies and gentlemen. It is Monday and look, I am back.

[Emma Vigeland]

I am back for my little jaunt out West.

[Sam Seder]

Emma Veglin, back off of her Hollywood tour. Impossible. Impossible to turn on a computer or to look at a phone without seeing clips of you on multiple shows.

[Emma Vigeland]

Yeah, I know you seem agitated by this fact, but I'm promoting our show. You know, I'm promoting the show that we do. I'm.

[Sam Seder]

No, I'm not agitated about it at all. I'm saying it's very impressive.

[Emma Vigeland]

Oh, well, yes. It's like I decided I'll vacation a little with family and then I'm going to do like, pretty much work for Thursday and Friday at the very least. But I had a fun time out West. So.

[Sam Seder]

Wait, you just did shows on Thursday and Friday?

[Emma Vigeland]

Yeah, well, I, I tried to book Wednesday and then I flew in Monday.

[Sam Seder]

Tuesday, Wednesday from San.

[Emma Vigeland]

Yeah, right.

[David Griscom]

Don't worry, we got the rest of the days covered.

[Emma Vigeland]

Those were my, that was my vacation time with my family. Remember I told you I was with my family?

[Sam Seder]

I thought that was gonna be the weekend. It's not a big deal. And Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, you went to that learning the, the comedy learning, Anne.

[Emma Vigeland]

Yeah, I, I brushed up on puns and I'm going to quadruple down on that going forward because it clearly worked.

[Murtaza Hussein]

The left wanted to make comedy illegal. Yeah.

[Sam Seder]

Well, it is working so much. Good to have you back on the east coast, but I Enjoyed. I mean, I. I don't want to say I enjoyed the Office. What is the name of that?

[Emma Vigeland]

Office Hours.

[Sam Seder]

Office Hours.

[Emma Vigeland]

Yeah.

[Sam Seder]

Wasn't that a movie, too?

[Emma Vigeland]

Yeah.

[Murtaza Hussein]

Office Space.

[Sam Seder]

Office Space. Oh, I don't know. It just sounds derivative to me. But I did see that. I did see that clip that you did with Tim. I always forget his name. Heideckert. Right.

[Emma Vigeland]

He asked if you were as old as Noam Chomsky, and I said, no, not quite.

[Sam Seder]

You know, that was.

[Emma Vigeland]

That.

[Sam Seder]

That was the part I saw, because I thought that was funny. And I was like, wait a second. Because I thought Tim was much younger than me, and he's not that much younger. It's just that his career has that feel of like, just getting started.

[Emma Vigeland]

Right, right.

[Sam Seder]

You know what I mean?

[Emma Vigeland]

Right.

[Sam Seder]

There's so much ahead of him that I thought that he was much younger.

[Emma Vigeland]

Yeah.

[Sam Seder]

I mean, you know, a lot of people, like, even in their early 20s, look like they're 50, which is good for when they're 70, because then they look 50. And I get. I thought that's what Tim was going on with that Tim Heidegger guy. That it was, like, just getting started.

[Emma Vigeland]

You know, I'd love to participate in this bit, but I have to keep all my options open at this point. But people, if they haven't, check out my Pod Save America thing. That seemed to, you know, I linked to that. Yes, yes. Oh, you did?

[Sam Seder]

Didn't we. Didn't we link to it on Friday?

[Emma Vigeland]

Yeah.

[Sam Seder]

Yes.

[Emma Vigeland]

Office hours. Higher learning. That was really fun. And then, of course, the Habituation Room with Francesca Ferratini. Yes. Well, a higher learning. And Rachel Lindsay, which I was very excited about as well, because she was the. She was the coolest bachelorette, but we don't need to get into that.

[Sam Seder]

Well, she was like, on that.

[Emma Vigeland]

Yeah. But she was, like, way too good for the show. I never saw Way too good for.

[Sam Seder]

It, but I've seen Van Late. We don't have to discuss very good stuff.

[Emma Vigeland]

Yes.

[Sam Seder]

All right, let's. Matt Singh, let's move on. Okay. Passive aggressive soundboard action. Exactly. All right. We have no economic data, incidentally, that is coming out, and supposedly there's a rumor going around. I don't. I haven't seen too much about this, but supposedly the. The regime is talking about releasing the jobs numbers without releasing an unemployment rate, which would seem a little bit odd. Nevertheless, Donald Trump ordered some grocery items exempted from tariffs. Like coffee, like bananas. Where we don't have these huge markets outside of maybe Hawaii. To grow these. There were other items, I think, on this list. But I imagine in this environment, we also still have that concept of greedflation, and we may not see those come down for a while. If people can get away with charging more, they will. And the tariffs, the uncertainty with the tariffs certainly has created that environment. But inflation is real. People are feeling it. Here is Kevin Hassett going over the same Walmart claims that Trump made last week. I think it was that Walmart's Thanksgiving dinner is cost 25% than it did last year, which is true.

[Emma Vigeland]

25% less.

[Sam Seder]

25% less. Sorry. Than it did last year. But it also has at least 25% less stuff in it.

[Emma Vigeland]

And the fact that they have to be this specific about that meal in particular kind of says it all.

[Sam Seder]

Right, here's Kevin Hassett, though, getting called on that little factoid.

[Interviewer 1]

The President claims that Thanksgiving costs are down 25%. I mean, does he know that's not true?

[Kevin Hassett]

Well, if you look at Walmart and the few places that put out their.

[Interviewer 1]

Prices, I got to stop because the Walmart comparisons, like, not. I mean, Walmart had a Thanksgiving package last year. They've got a Thanksgiving package this year. The one this year contains much less than what the one last year took. So that's why the price is less. Look, we got a chart here. Last year it would 21 total products. This year it's 15. Total number of items in those projects was products was 29%. Now 29, now it's 22. There's more generic brand stuff. So I mean, Thanksgiving, if you're going to the store to buy groceries for Thanksgiving, it's going to be more expensive.

[Kevin Hassett]

I really don't, don't understand where you're going in the sense that Joe Biden gave us. Joe Biden gave us 20%.

[Interviewer 1]

He's not Donald Trump's president.

[Sam Seder]

No.

[Kevin Hassett]

And you want us to, to, to fix the hole that Joe Biden.

[Interviewer 1]

Why does the President tell.

[Kevin Hassett]

The prices went up so much under Joe Biden and inflation is way down. Inflation is about half what it was in December. This is something that's being fixed fast. And real incomes are up after dropping about 3,000 under Joe Biden. And so, sure, you could find a few things where the price is higher, but there's a whole bunch of stuff when the price is lower, like gasoline.

[Interviewer 1]

Where are we going to get the Republican plan?

[Kevin Hassett]

You understand that mortgage rates have gone way down and it's much cheaper to buy a home now than it was when down, right?

[Interviewer 1]

Yeah.

[Emma Vigeland]

So well, because interest rates are down because the economy is slowing down. That's why.

[Sam Seder]

That's why the. Can you imagine? I mean, obviously the folks at ABC were very prepared for him to bring up the Wal Mart thing. It took about half a second before it was out of his mouth, before that graphic was up there. But it literally is like, hey, come on over. Do you want to jump into my lawnmower and get chewed up? And he comes out. Now, one of the things about Hassett is he has the ability to smile even when he's ob, obviously, clearly upset. I actually have a bit of a humiliation fetish.

[Kevin Hassett]

Exactly.

[Emma Vigeland]

This is perfect for me.

[Sam Seder]

But yes, all of the markers that they're talking about in terms of going down, the interest rates is done because we're afraid of jobs, job loss, gas is down because we're probably in a recession in parts of the country at this point, not to mention certainly in terms of manufacturing, building. And here is Kevin Hassett sort of now trying to sort of make, make us understand why the jobs are starting to go soft. Now we know they're going soft in part because you have a million and a half people who have, in terms of immigration who have either we have no immigrants coming in or immigrants afraid to go to work or immigrants being detained.

[Emma Vigeland]

Yeah.

[Sam Seder]

And that means like we only have four people on this job site, we need 10. And now we can't build this house, so everybody go home. Here's Kevin Hassett trying to explain. Well, we also have another problem and it's just going to make things quiet for a while.

[Kevin Hassett]

Last CPI report we got surprised 48 Bloomberg economists on the downside and even had some sort of temporary bad news because there was a refinery in, it was shut down. If you're looking at the top line number, I think that there have been mixed signals in the job market and really, really positive signals in the output markets. As you know, we've got GDP now running close to 4%. We've got productivity running up around 3%. And so I think that there could be a little bit of almost a quiet time in the labor market because firms are finding the air is making their workers so productive that they don't necessarily have to hire the new kids out of college and so on, but because there's so much output growth and income growth, that's the kind of thing that, you know, a free market will work out relatively quickly as, you know, new ways to spend money emerge.

[Emma Vigeland]

That's sociopathic, basically essentially admitting about that. The mark job market for young people is horrific. And saying that don't worry, the market will sort itself out with AI just around the corner. The, the apocalyptic outcome that we've all been warning about. He speaks about it in such a blase man.

[Sam Seder]

Well, first off, there's no reason to believe that if what he's saying is true, that this is going to be a quiet time, as if it's going to be just, we're going through a rocky period. Why would that change? If that is the dynamic that's going on, why would that change? Why would we expect AI not to be able to provide more layoffs or more lack of hires? And when he talks about productivity going up, understand again, and even gdp, if that's possible, although I don't know that we have really seen these numbers. But what is clear is if you don't have entry level people coming into the business world as it were, getting jobs, entry level jobs, yet productivity is going up and GDP is going up. What that's basically telling you is that we are building this economy on fewer and fewer people who are getting. Because somebody's getting the benefit of that productivity going up and it ain't those first time workers. And so he says the market will take care of it and it will find something else. We are seeing bubble after bubble after bubble in this economy. And I'm talking broadly over the past several decades. Right now that bubble is AI. There is so much money that so few people have, they don't know what to do with it. It creates an anxiety for them that like, wait a second, I've got, I've got $100 million in the bank. I've got $500 million in the bank. I got a billion dollars in the bank. I need to make that money. Needs to be making more money for me, right? Where am I going to do it? Somebody comes along, says the next big thing is going to be AI and they throw that money in there and it's basically, it is basically a Ponzi scheme.

[Emma Vigeland]

Harvard economist Jason Furman recently said that AI investments account for nearly 92% of US GDP growth in the first half of 2025.

[Sam Seder]

So there you have it.

[Emma Vigeland]

It's just entirely unsustainable. Yeah, go on.

[Sam Seder]

Well, there's, there's no, there's no profit being made from it, right? Or I should say not substantial profit. And all it's doing is essentially increasing.

[Emma Vigeland]

Wealth inequality and also destroying our environment. Let's not leave that and jobs. Well, oh, that. To the trifecta.

[Sam Seder]

All right, in a moment, we're going to be talking about her Hussein who has with Ryan Grim and others at the at drop site been writing a series on Jeffrey Epstein's involvement in I guess arm sales. I'm trying to think of a blanket like seemingly everything. But we will get to that in just a moment. Oh, some words from our sponsors. We got a couple today. I you know when one goes shopping one wonders for the holidays what can I get someone? What's going what's going to have impact on them for the year to come. I have an answer. It is called Cozy Earth. It can be sheets, it can be pajamas which are incredible but also all sorts of other clothing. I am like as I started to think about it like so much of my any given day I have Cozy Earth sheets. They are fantastic. They are temperature regulating, they are soft. I don't, I don't know what more you would want out of sheets. They're fantastic. They look great. But then I also have, I have Cozy Earth joggers. I have Cozy Earth hoodie which is my favorite hoodie. PJs. They're incredibly. You were bragging about your PJs the other day.

[Emma Vigeland]

I love them.

[Sam Seder]

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[Emma Vigeland]

I guess you can. Yeah.

[Sam Seder]

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[Emma Vigeland]

Yeah.

[Sam Seder]

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[Murtaza Hussein]

Whoa.

[Sam Seder]

As a gift. And so I was like, wait a second, we got a coupon code for that. But these are great. You with Aura frames, you get unlimited free photos and video. All you do. You download the Aura app, you connect to WI Fi and you can send them photos, videos off your phone, whatever, it doesn't matter. They go into a scroll. You can hear audio on these. And here's the amazing thing. If you want to give it as a gift, you can literally preload the frame with photos without taking out of the box. You can add from anywhere at any time so it can show up. It's super easy use. You plug it in, hooks up to the wi fi, super easy. The photos will show up there for your parents, for your uncles, your aunts, your grandparents, it doesn't matter. For a limited time, visit auraframes.com Get $45 off of Aura's best selling carver matte frames named number one by wire code wire cutter. Rather use the promo code majority of checkout. That's a U R A frames.com auraframes.com promo code majority this exclusive Black Friday Cyber Monday deal is the best of the year. So order now before it ends. Support the show by mentioning us at checkout. Terms and conditions apply. That's promo code majority. We'll put that link in the podcast and YouTube description. Honestly, that is a great gift. I got all the aura frames here. Before my mom passed. We had an aura frame for her. It was, it was, it was a great way to stay connected. It was awesome. All right, quick break. We come back. Murtaza Hussein. We are back. Sam Cedar and Emma Vigland on the Majority Report want to welcome debt back to the program. Murtaza Hussein. He is a journalist covering national security and foreign affairs at Drop Site News and he has written alongside with Ryan Grim over at Drop Site a now, now a four part series. Is it going to be longer than this? Murtazi, you can answer that About Jeffrey Epstein and his. I mean, I'm not sure. I'm not sure how. It's so expansive. It's hard to describe it. His odd role in relationship to Israel and Israeli officials and their selling of weapons all around the globe.

[Murtaza Hussein]

Yeah, well, first of all, thanks so much for having me on because just this subject is so important and something which has been talked about so much in the media last few days but really the crux of the matter has not really been addressed, which is the fact that Epstein, as we're showing in the series which is an ongoing series, was somebody who was very much involved in global politics. You could say he was a fixer and dealmaker. The four stories we've done so far, they show Epstein involved in helping seed, or you could say, orchestrate back channel diplomacy between the Israeli government and other governments. And the ones we've done so far include Cote d', Ivoire, Syria and Russia. And we have several other stories and I'm sorry, Mongolia as well, too. And we have several other stories coming out, I think, in the next few weeks, which we'll touch on other countries as well. But yes, Epstein was somebody who was very involved in the global arms trafficking, trade, the tech, you know, surveillance technology, the profusion over the last few decades. Obviously sex trafficking is known, but in many other things, money laundering as well, too. And we're going to dig deeper into that in the months and weeks to come.

[Emma Vigeland]

Can you back up a little bit to talk about Ghislaine Maxwell's father's connections to Israeli intelligence? Because I think that might be important to understanding and the arms trade more broadly. To understanding, like what, what Epstein kind of got himself into via this partnership with Maxwell, his daughter.

[Murtaza Hussein]

Right. So Robert Maxwell was somebody who had a very interesting relationship, you could say, with intelligence services. He was sort of an asset to them. He was a very wealthy individual and he used his connections to play, again, a role as sort of a fixer and someone who could deploy capital for various purposes which were useful to foreign governments, especially Israel. And, you know, this is something which is speculative in a way, but it's very logical. It seems that almost that Epstein, upon Maxwell's death, he sort of inherited that role. And when we've seen in a number of different disclosures, you know, I will say there's three so far, major sources of information about Epstein that we have gotten recently. One is the House oversight documents, which are being released at the moment. The other are some documents from a lawsuit between the US Virgin Islands and JP Morgan, alleging that Epstein was involved in JP Morgan and that helped facilitate sex trafficking. And finally, a cached of emails between former Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Barak and Epstein. And they show Epstein acting a lot like Maxwell did, basically acting as a fixer for Israeli government officials, helping them secure both economic and political interests in foreign countries. And there's a particular model that Epstein appeared to operate on with Barak, whereby the two of them, or often Barak coached by Epstein or guided by Epstein, would approach a foreign country that had security problems and offer them a range of possible solutions, usually involving surveillance Technology and other military cooperation which could be provided by Israeli private firms which were in fact linked to Israeli intelligence. And once those non diplomatic, commercial and security arrangements start to form a few years later, the Israeli government would often go in and sign a formal security agreement with that country. That's what happened in Cote d'. Ivoire. That's what happened in Mongolia. That's what happened in many other places. And Epstein was somebody who would, I would say, in my opinion, he had more contacts with people around the world, influential people in government and business and so forth, than any one person could really develop or manage organically. He was a central node to so many people in so many parts of the world. In Africa, he had huge connections in the Middle east, in Israel and Europe, Russia, Central Asia, obviously United States as well too. He was in the center of all of it. And he would open doors and make these things happen. And that was really the role he played. And this is not to diminish the importance of his involvement in sex trafficking and the abuses that he was ultimately arrested for, but it seems almost only one part of the full story who Epstein really was.

[Sam Seder]

Yeah, I mean, I think I want to reiterate that point that you just made at the end there, because this is not about, you know, diminishing it, but it is, it is his role in the world is. Is fascinating and it's becoming more and more clear. And it also, what this stuff shows me. And then I want to get into a little bit more of the specifics, but that he was, the idea that he was working for the Mossad, I think would be a mistake to sort of say that. It makes it sound like he was sort of like subservient, like they were his employee. Like it sounds more like he is a broker. And the idea of these things being discreet things, you know, like this is his job or that's his job, because it sounds like he's the. That he's more of like a broker in this stuff. Which isn't to say that he isn't providing all sorts of information Mossad, but it sounds like he's almost more senior level in which he's engaging in and that, you know, to the extent that information gets to the Mossad, it gets through other members of the Israeli government and God knows how many other governments. But let's. You can speak to that as we talk about the story. But your first story was in September 28th, and you referenced the cache of emails between Ehud Barak and Epstein. Where did those come from? Like the emails we're seeing now came from his estate via subpoena by the Congressional Oversight Committee. Where did those first emails come from?

[Murtaza Hussein]

Yeah, so our first story in September, as you mentioned, about this Israeli security agreement with Mongolia that Epstein was involved in helping put together, that information came from this hacked cache of emails from Ehud Barak. Now, these emails are hacked, it seems like some years ago. The majority of them are between 2012, 2016, and there are a few after that, but the majority of them came from around that time. We don't know exactly who hacked them, but it was claimed by this pro Palestinian hacking group called Handala, which others have speculated may have had ties to the Iranian Ministry of Intelligence. Again, we're not totally sure, but they were dumped online and then they were picked up by this organization called Distributed Denial of Secrets. And it's like a successful organization to WikiLeaks. And they have different dumps of data and emails from hacks and leaks all over the world. They hosted on there, you know, anyone will look at them, you can go download them and take a look at them and so forth. And they contain thousands and thousands of emails. Like 50,000 emails roughly from Barack and a few other Israeli officials at the time were also hacked. But in those emails, a subset of them are Barack's communications with Epstein. Now, Barack, you know, people probably know he was Israeli Defense Minister. He was Israeli Prime Minister at one time. And these emails are mostly from the period right. When he was about to resign as Defense Minister of Israel.

[Sam Seder]

And okay, just so people know, he was prime minister, I mean, he was in the military obviously in Israel. He was a general, I think a fairly well decorated Israeli general. Became prime minister was relative to sort of like Israeli politics probably, you know, sort of like a moderate, you know, maybe within the context of. Of Israeli politics, you know, sort of like left of center, but, you know, that's Israeli politics are pretty far to the right. Then became, after he left office, he became defense minister and then sort of like became, I don't know, a private defense minister, for lack of a better term. Right. It's like just heading out and almost like just paying the people who are getting paid by the people or selling to the people who proceed who followed him.

[Murtaza Hussein]

Yeah, it's funny, like in the Israeli political spectrum, Barak is derided like an extreme leftist or something, which is not really the case, but that's what he's positioned, given how things have moved in that direction. But yeah, so, you know, effectively what Barack was doing, as you can see in the emails, is What a lot of American political officials also do, which is that when they leave public office, they try to find ways to make money. They want to make money as private citizens. And we can see in the communications that Epstein was seen by Barack as somebody who could help open doors to make him rich now that he's leaving his Defense ministry role in 2013. He actually thanks Epstein. One email. They talk about money pretty much all the time. He thanks in one email for helping him make a lot of Adobe, quote unquote. That was a very explicit part of their relationship. But they're also very good friends and they talk about a lot of things. But Epstein was helping Barack accomplish two goals at once. First was to help take his nascent sort of consultant role off the ground and help him make these connections with foreign countries who would pay him and, you know, foreign banks would help to give him finder's fees to find them clients and so forth. But in doing so, those connections and those deals that Barack was making would also help further the security interests of Israel and Israeli intelligence. Because what he would do is he'd pitch these Israeli linked intelligence firms and surveillance firms to foreign countries and foreign governments as, you know, a turnkey solution to the security problems. And then they would sign these lucrative deals with these Israeli firms, which almost always founded by veterans of Israel intelligence. So as you said, Barack was kind of acting as an unofficial sort of, you know, maybe defense minister is the wrong word, but someone who's operating for the benefit of the Israeli government, Israeli security establishment and so forth, while also being free to make money. And Epstein was helping him do the both those things. He didn't have all the connections, Epstein, which is funny because he was the prime minister.

[Emma Vigeland]

This.

[Sam Seder]

What's so bizarre about this is like, how is a random, seemingly random civilian opening up more doors than a former prime Minister of, you know, really of any country you would imagine, like, they'd be able to like. It's. It's nuts. It almost feels like Epstein is opening doors in the Israeli government too, on some level to Barak. But it's so strange.

[Murtaza Hussein]

Yeah, yeah. You know, that's the thing. People have asked this question for a long time. Did Epstein work for Mossad? I told you, Sam, I don't think he worked for Mossad at all. If anything, it seemed like the Mossad was working for him.

[Sam Seder]

Working for him. Yes.

[Murtaza Hussein]

Right. And the interactions between Barack and Epstein, it's really notable. I spent a lot of time looking at the emails. There's a clear power dynamic here. And Barak mind You, at that time, was one of the most influential, powerful people in the Israeli political and security establishment. He was looking up to Epstein. It was by no means that Epstein was going after him or trying to get his attention. It was really vice versa. He was eager for Epstein's attention and help and so forth. And as a mentorship, you could say. And Epstein, like I said, he had deep connections and ability to draw influence very much in Africa, very much in the Middle east, very much in Central Asia, Europe, Russia, all these places. You know, there's also some documents were released as part of that lawsuit I mentioned earlier, the JP Morgan US Virgin Islands lawsuit. In those documents, you know, Epstein is talking about getting clearance to meet, like, foreign ministers of pretty much every country you can imagine, the Middle east, to have discussions about various matters, economic matters and so forth. I don't know. He's also talking about meeting Putin. He helped arrange, we reported on this. He helped arrange a meeting and back channel between Ehud Barak and top Russian government officials to discuss a deal to remove Bashar al Assad from Power in 2013. He had unbelievable sway and pull. How he developed that, there's some theories about that. I don't think anyone really knows for sure. But by all means, he was somebody far more powerful than Barack, I would say, and the public officials of most countries. And, you know, he was sort of a free agent. He was. He had clear ideological sympathies in certain ways. He had ties to some countries more than others. And some of that is reflected in our reporting, especially related to Israel. But he was somebody who was in many ways more powerful than all those people. And I don't think that. You know, I also tell people I think Israelis are also victims of the situation. Ordinary Israelis are definitely victims of situation because their country was being used as effectively a base by these people who were making a lot of money and they're doing things which arguably were only in their own interest. And Israel was like a sovereign sort of destination by which. From which they could organize that.

[Emma Vigeland]

But how about Epstein's relationship, too, with Adnan Khashoggi from the arms dealer known from obviously Iran Contra too? I mean, I feel like that doesn't necessarily get reported on that much. Or was that more Maxwell's connection?

[Murtaza Hussein]

No, it was definitely also Epstein's connection point, because, you know, we're going to write about this more just to contextualize sort of the long history of Epstein. But, you know, Iran Contra was a very important step in the journey to Epstein becoming who he was and his Friendship with the Adnan Khashoggi and so forth. You know, my impression is that Epstein was somebody and he's talked about this, he's bragged before he died, he bragged about this as well too. He bragged about his connections to the global arms industry, but also he also mentioned diamonds and other things. But he also was somebody who was very involved in money laundering and sophisticated means of money laundering, which could be beneficial to foreign governments, foreign intelligence agencies, also American intelligence. The American government as well too. When they wanted to fund certain activities but wanted to keep it away from public scrutiny, they could arrange sophisticated money laundering schemes. And Epstein seemed to be a master of money laundering. And, you know, Adnan Khashoggi was somebody who was very well known for his involvement in this kind of activity. There was an organization called the bcci. It was a Pakistani based bank many years ago, known to be very corrupt, had ties to Adnan Khashoggi, was involved in Iran Contra. Epstein was very much in those circles and he seemed to learn the tips of the trade doing it at that time. And he blossomed in later years to become a power player in his own right. I think one really important part is we know, you know, certain snippets of Epstein, his life. There's a period, you know, around the time from like 2003 to 2010 ish, where his life is completely like a black box. We really don't know much of what he was doing at that time, but I strongly suspect he's very involved in the Iraq war and helping facilitate conversations about not saying he triggered it or anything like that. But, you know, he's somebody who was so deeply involved in every sort of major geopolitical enterprise of the US and Israel and a few other countries that I would imagine that he had some involvement in that as such, as you did in other later previous episodes.

[Sam Seder]

I mean, I have a lot of questions that may be sort of sort of outside of your portfolio with this because there are like the whole, you know, sort of financial stuff that backs this too. I mean, at one point, maybe years from now, we will have a more holistic vision of what is going on here because it really is nuts that this guy is able to sort of like coordinate all these things. But I will say there is a email going around in this latest trove where Epstein talks about Trump basically not just lending his name from a branding exercise, you know, as a way of making money, but also being a Trojan buyer of a lot of stuff for wealthy people who wanted to launder Their purchases. I mean, you know, it has occurred to me. Again, this is all speculation on my part. You've done a lot more reporting and digging into these things that when in that birthday card, when he referred to them as both enigmas, I get the sense that that was about money laundering. At the end of the day, I mean, I feel like that would be. It feels like Epstein would find a thing that he shared with these different people and then become this mentor like Larry Summers asking how to. Well, but he has prey on, you know, somebody who works for him.

[Emma Vigeland]

But a mentor would imply that the relationship isn't coercive. I mean, he also had had cameras and surveillance setups throughout his whole house. So I mean, Murtaza, feel free to weigh in here. But like he recorded it seems like all a lot of incriminating information about.

[Sam Seder]

But it's unclear. I mean from the email. Yeah, Mertaza weigh in on this. But I'm like looking at his Larry Summers stuff and that does not seem like Larry Summers is afraid of Epstein. It seems like Larry Summers is like, I'm a loser. Can you help me score with this? You know, person is working for me. I mean it's, it's, it's, it's nuts. It's like what I feel like, you know, a 12 year old would say to like, you know, some junior in high school, like, dude, how do I like it? It's like Fast times in Richmond High when a guy's saying, put on that Led Zeppelin album, sort of. But Murtaza weigh in on this.

[Emma Vigeland]

Yeah.

[Murtaza Hussein]

You know, to Emma's point, it's this issue of the blackmail. It's interesting because I think there's very strong circumstantial evidence and I think it's very plausible that was the case. I haven't seen a smoking gun as yet that he was doing that per se. But one thing we reported on is that at the apartments that he was administering in New York, the ones he's renting have control over, there was an Israeli senior Israeli military intelligence agent living there for stretches at that time, weeks at a time between 2013, 2015. So one can imagine what the reason for that is. But you know, another aspect is that Epstein did have ties to Russian oligarchs. And we've also reported on parts of this and they were well known to do this kind of thing. The whole compromise, that idea was sort of in some way pioneered by them. And there are some other emails which suggest, you know, imply that this was going on. But I haven't seen a smoking gun per se. It's very plausible to me. But that said, I also think that a lot of these people, they didn't need to be blackmailed because they were willing to do Epstein wanted anyways because Epstein was somebody who, you know, they wanted to be close to him because he was someone who could make you.

[Sam Seder]

A lot of money.

[Murtaza Hussein]

He could make you a very wealthy person if you have connection to him. He was someone who's a gateway to a lot of like fun, quote unquote. He could, you know, open doors to parties and God knows what, you know, social circles that are very elite and so forth. So I think that he probably used carrots and sticks and I've seen a lot of carrots, but we haven't seen necessarily firm evidence that he was doing that, although I think by no means beyond the realm of possible at all. But yeah, he was somebody who was also very charismatic. Clearly these people, he had a magnetic sort of personality. People, powerful people were dying to talk to him and work with him or have his attention and have his time and so forth. So, you know, I don't know. That's a, that's a very, very important part of who he was and how he operated. And these emails, you know, he was just chatting and a lot of them with powerful people, like they were using him as a confidant or somebody who they wanted to. Yeah, like Larry Summers is a great example. They wanted his help as an individual. So I, I don't know what the particular like elite culture was, where these things are being discussed or what role exactly he played socially in this way, but it wouldn't surprise me that a lot of people did what he wanted just because they wanted to, even if some of them were also being coerced.

[Sam Seder]

I mean, you know, we should be frank. I mean some of our faves were involved. You know, Chomsky has written about, there's a, what seems to be some type of like reference letter and where Chomsky talks about, but the access to insight and individuals in areas where Chomsky was like, he wanted to like. It sounds like Epstein made maybe was Ehud Barak, it could have been other Israeli officials. So that Chomsky could sort of like formulate his opinions and get an idea of like what's actually going on, like providing that type of access to somebody who wouldn't necessarily be able to sort of like, you know, you don't imagine Chomsky having the opportunity, you know, once he becomes such a full throated critic, to be able to have access and insight from behind whatever, you know, curtain that he has criticized. And it's like Epstein shows up and I'm like, I've got, you know, you know, you want reds, I got reds. You want blues, I got blues, I got uppers, I got downers, I got the whole. I got whatever it is that you want. It's like a weird world where this guy has all the information that people seem to be seeking from him. Now, of course, I'm not reading the emails that are just banal, but it seems really sort of fascinating. I guess the origin story is like, how gives you a better sense of what this trajectory is? Right.

[Murtaza Hussein]

Yeah, he made himself indispensable to so many people, seemingly. He was able to open doors for them and so forth. And, you know, with Chomsky, it was fascinating because there are some emails between Chomsky, Epstein, Barack in the separate disclosures, which, you know, were not from the House Oversight Committee, within Barack's emails. And it seemed like Epstein and Barack just, you know, they saw Chomsky as like this brilliant curiosity. And they. Actually, there's one very interesting email. We might report this later on, but there's an interesting email where they're discussing some criticisms that Chomsky had made about the trajectory of the Israeli government, Israeli society. And, you know, they thought, oh, this is actually missing good points here. And they're discussing his article and wanting to meet up with him and so forth. So, you know, I get the impression Epstein really enjoyed being part of these, your rarefied academic intellectual circles. He saw himself as someone like that as well, too, even if he didn't have any formal affiliation. He obviously had this famous affiliation with all these elite educational institutions. And Chomsky was a legendary figure in them, even putting aside his political views, just as a linguist. So I think that they saw him as somebody who was someone who fit naturally into social circle. And yeah, what Epstein was doing for Chauncey is really. That's hard to say. Maybe there's nothing. I don't know. But they could have been something as well, too. But there was just something that. There was a magnetism there that seemed to. People wanted to be involved with him and he could arrange funding for people and we're going to do reporting, but later on. But, you know, people who are in academia and research and science, they need the funding for their projects and so forth. He was somebody who's very well positioned to provide that, provided that there was something in it for him or he found it to be noteworthy or in line with his own personal or political interests.

[Sam Seder]

Within the context of the Barack emails, were there other figures that you came across, aside from Chomsky, who ended up being mentioned in these emails as being within the sort of like, universe where Epstein operated?

[Murtaza Hussein]

A tremendous number of people all over the world, a lot of them, some of the known names are probably already known right now, but, you know, he just had such tremendous reach all over the world. A lot of them are people who may not be familiar to Americans, to be honest. People these senior political figures in Africa and in the Gulf Arab countries and the mid level figures or upper mid level figures. He was hosting many of them. His house in New York was like a, you know, unaffiliated diplomatic embassy. It was a diplomatic embassy for some parastatal force, which he was the ambassador. That's kind of how he operated. So, you know, it was kind of taken as a given that he would be somebody who would be helping facilitate official diplomacy, business deals. He's very involved in the world of private banks. We have a forthcoming story, hopefully the next 2448 hours, about his involvement with a very famous bank. He would use his relationships to accomplish discrete political ends. And, you know, one thing Epstein would do is he'd always do two things at once, because everything, whenever he's trying to accomplish a political goal, there would all be a financial component tied into it as well, too. So it was a very, in some way seamless system that he was sort of operating under. And yeah, he was somebody who was above all these governments. He seemed to represent a class of people who were above all these governments from all over the world. They knew each other, they invested together. It was not really a huge world of people, to be honest. And, you know, when you look at those photos that the New York Times released in his mansion, you know, you see like the. He was with the, you know, Emiratis and Israelis and British people and Americans and Russians. He had a tremendous reach and tremendous influence. And, you know, I think that it's just a lot actually, if you think of how did one individual who's a private citizen develop all that. Who did he work for, what influences he represents? He certainly worked for himself. But, you know, there's something beyond that as well too. I think that, you know, if I were to put a, you know, a rough point that there's like a global billionaire class, and he is somebody who was a very important node in that global billionaire class. That's who I would say Epstein was in the short and some of it. And alongside that he had relationships with all these governments and intelligence agencies while not working for them per se.

[Sam Seder]

Do we have a sense of like, I mean, I mean, the first thing occurs to me is like, I just the sheer amount of social connections the guy has, business social connections, whatnot. Like, you know, like, I can't even, like, I just don't understand how that works. Like, when do you have time to do anything and. But do we have a sense that there was any type of apparatus? Like, I know Ghislaine Maxwell was his number two and must have had a big portfolio, if you will. But part of that portfolio also seems to be sort of like organizing the sex trafficking. Like, here he is, you've written stories about him going to, you know, Cote d' Ivoire and to Mongolia and to Syria and, And you know, presumably he's got other clients. He's also like, seems to have a burgeoning money laundering business. Like, all these things coincide. They all seem to sort of like mix in with each other on some level. But is there any, like, evidence of an apparatus? Like, is he BCC anybody? Has he CC'd anybody? Like, I, this is what I, you know, like, I can barely like, organize what we're doing here. And like, how, like, I just don't understand how, how does he keep in his head, like, got to get to the Cote d' Ivoire because we're going to sell, you know, this weapon system, but of course we got this thing in Mongolia where we're going to do these security things and I've got to, you know, create a fake bank account in, you know, I don't know, the Bahamas. Like, I don't, like, is there any sense that there's an apparatus that he's running or who's doing like the grunt work?

[Murtaza Hussein]

You know, that's a, it's a really great. You bring that point up because if you look at schedules which are released as part of these House oversight disclosures, you know, he had like, I don't know where he found the time to do the sex trafficking actually based on his schedules, because he was meeting people morning to night, traveling constantly, as he said, arranging these very intricate discussions, very important sort of geopolitical back channels and so forth. It's very interesting. And his schedule is put together by his assistant, Groff, at the time. They would sort of manage what he was doing day to day explore, per se. But you're right, it's difficult. You know, an organization would need to usually do this much. It'd be difficult for an organization to Actually execute this much just bureaucratically or keeping all this information together, keep all these different projects going at the same time. What, if anything, was managing that? I don't know. It's. I can't say right now what was happening. He could have hired a staff. Supposedly he did have a staff, a significant staff who work for him. So he could have been an organization unto himself. But I completely agree with you that the nature of his lifestyle and his contacts and the way he managed them and so forth was inorganic in the sense that no one individual could do all of this. No one individual could manage all these contacts, all these different projects. Leaving totally aside the illegal sex trafficking, he was involved and just that his geopolitical maneuvering was seemingly far beyond the purview of any one individual. Maybe even superhuman. Maybe he just did it himself. I don't think so. I. I don't think so at all. I think that it's just. It wouldn't make a lot of sense. And yeah, he had a staff, but even then, something doesn't add up here. So, you know, I'll say. Whenever I talk about Epstein, I say that, you know, this is a situation. It's like the analogy of the blind person, the elephant. Like everyone is touching aspect of the elephant, but no one sees the full elephant. We're all like, you know, I'm touching one part, and then the New York Times touching some part, which I find less relevant, so forth and stuff like that. But, you know, we don't have the full picture, and I hope that we do develop the full picture over time, but, you know, it's going to take a tremendous amount of disclosure and attention and Evan and reporting dedicated to actually uncovering the full scope of who he was and what he was involved in.

[Emma Vigeland]

Well, also the Maxwell thing I just feel like is still under underreported, like her role as being his number two. Maybe not. There's a lot of focus, of course, on her basically recruiting these girls for him to abuse and literally driving around schools in West Palm beach and doing that. I mean, it's horrific. But as I mentioned earlier about Robert Maxwell and his ties to the arms trade and to Israeli intelligence, like, he died mysteriously in the middle of the ocean, got pushed off or fell off his boat. I think that was what happened. Maybe he didn't get pushed off. We don't know. It just didn't happen. Lots of mysterious stuff happening around the story, but, like, how much did Epstein take over? Ghislaine was his favorite, his baby daughter, his. The boat was named after her that I think that he died on. And it seemed like a lot of people that observed their relationship seemed like she replaced this very intense relationship with her father with Epstein. And it would make sense if he took over business contacts for Robert Maxwell. Right.

[Sam Seder]

But, but, but even still, I would imagine, hi, I'm that guy that you did that, that arms deal with. I'm his brother and, you know, like his, his stepson. So let's do this. That also just seems like click. I mean, but getting. I want you to address that. But getting back just to the staff thing, has anybody gone out and like, attempted to sort of unwind or pull on the thread of any of the names that were working in the staff? Like, I would imagine there's got to be like, NDAs, but, you know, the guy's dead and unless there's some, like, why wouldn't you. Even if you got paid off, which I would imagine they all got paid quite well, you would imagine that one of them would speak unless they were afraid of, like, there being some other way of there's being some other mechanism to punish them for speaking out about it.

[Murtaza Hussein]

Yeah, you know, there have been some limited sort of reporting. People who work with him, security people, assistants, people who worked on staff at his mansion. You know, it has not been very substantive. Some of them have passed away, like, you know, natural causes, I guess. But, you know, there. It's been what I've called kind of a limited hangout. A little bit the term people may know that. Sorry, intelligence term. They've been like a little bit of reporting about all these things, but the threat is never fully unraveled the whole way. And it's not always clear how much any in one individual may have known about this situation. But I do think, you know, Emma really is a really important point. Like the actual. Well, the take, the one aspect, the sex trafficking that Ghislaine was involved in. You know, there are people who knew about that and the people on the staff who testified that they cleaned up at his mansion after these, you know, abuses took place and so forth. Again, I don't know how Epstein learned how to do that or learn how to. Or decide to integrate that into his larger apparatus. One thing that does go back to Maxwell, sorry, Robert Maxwell, and beyond that is the ties to bcci, because that bank, bcci, which is this notorious global money laundering institution, they were very well known for sex trafficking and they would traffic girls from Asia and South Asia to the Middle east. And that was part of their money laundering apparatus. It Seemed like there's a class of people all around the world who were involved in this type of activity, whom Robert Maxwell was an integral part. And then by some means, it seems, though, that Epstein inherited. And this would just be a natural thing that they knew to do, or they knew that their clients, whoever they were, would demand this or political expediency would demand this. And he just sort of was able to fulfill that role, you know, given who he was and his connections were and so forth. So, you know, it's interesting because there are people who talk about this, and a lot of this stuff is public, and we are getting some disclosures about this. There's. Our reporting is a House oversight committee is victims of sex trafficking has testified. Members of the staff has testified in the past, but it doesn't really, you know, the whole thing never gets put together. Even these emails that are coming out right now, they're really interesting, but they're all like individual shotgun, like, blasts in different directions. And the whole thing is not really put together in a cohesive world. They're really shocking implications in many of these emails and shocking implications of things people have said in the past, too. But what does it all add up to? That's the question which has not really been fully answered.

[Sam Seder]

What, from the email trove of Ehu Barak was the most shocking to you? I mean, did you. Was it a series of stuff like, where you're like, oh, my God, wait, what? And like, it feels like that could have been like a rolling experience of like, how is Epstein, like, you know, dealing with the Russians in Syria and then also going to, you know, Mongolia? And like, it's just, just. It's just bizarre. But what, what you did you find most sort of surprising or shocking?

[Murtaza Hussein]

Well, you know, it's interesting because the emails are all there and, like, anyone can look at them, but it's not obvious what are being said in the emails per se, because this is like a snapshot of a particular time in both men's lives. It doesn't account for when they first met. It doesn't account for, you know, it's like you're joining the story mid conversation in a way, in a lot of these cases. So it's only really after putting together the thread of what they're talking about each of these cases that, you know, you come to some revelation that something very significant was happening here. So it takes a lot of time to look at them to actually determine that it's definitely doable. It's just, you know, it's an Investment of resources and so forth, which I guess is a barrier to just reporting them easily. It's not like low hanging fruit per se, even though they are available. But, you know, I think it's fascinating the casualness of all this actually, in a way, because, you know, one would think that back channel diplomatic conversations were handled through some sort of quasi official channels and so forth. It was really often just certain individuals who were very plugged in, who were part of these elites organically, who arranged these talks, which Epstein was doing for Barack in many, many parts of the world. But I think that if not shocking, but the most revealing email in there is one we've quoted several times in the story, I think we'll continue quoting, because it kind of tells the whole story in a way. It's one where Epstein just emailed Barack out of the blue, seemingly. They just chatted very often with their friends. And he said, you know, all over the world, in Somalia and Syria and Ukraine and all these places, there are this great upheaval and people in power are very insecure and afraid. Isn't this perfect for you? And Barak responds, yes, but it's not easy to turn into a cash flow. Something for us to discuss on Saturday. So it seemed like the two of them were looking at the map of the world. Epstein had contacts pretty much everywhere saying, who needs, who's insecure, who needs help that we can provide them or sell them, and then using Barack as the guy who go do the pitch with Epstein and encouragement. So I think that email sort of is distilling the broader little operation they're running. In this case, they were exploiting global upheaval as a means of making money and then also furthering security interests of certain states, and particularly in this case Israel.

[Sam Seder]

It's, it's hard because, you know, like, this stuff really sort of pulls at that thing in your brain where you just want to go to like the most sort of like conspiratorial thing. But, but the way I saw that email, I mean, it's in your pieces, obviously, but it really feels to me like that is Epstein trying to get him on the hook. Like the idea, like, there's a lot of opportunity out there for you, buddy. And Barack is like, yeah, I know, but I can't make it happen. It sort of feels like that's Epstein's way of saying, well, I can help you make it happen. And then, you know, there's this and this and this and, and, you know, like.

[Emma Vigeland]

And Barack, we should say it's heavily implied by in Virginia Giuffre's, I believe, accounts that he might have been the prime minister that assaulted her. Is that. That's accurate, right?

[Murtaza Hussein]

Yeah. There's nothing about that in the emails per se, but I have seen that reporting and I did see her statements about that. She said that, I think in your post heavily implied it was him. I don't have any definitive information about that. But.

[Emma Vigeland]

But just to say how interweave it woven like what all these financial dynamics are with the sex trafficking tube.

[Sam Seder]

Sorry, but I would imagine like that that's part of it. It's like we're in this dude. Like, you know, we go hang out, you know, we. We go to the strip club together on a regular basis and, you know, us doing business, you know, that type of like, sort of dynamic where it's like we're all in on this and it does the. Him emailing Barack out of the blue and saying there's a lot of opportunity out there seems solicitous to me in some way.

[Murtaza Hussein]

Yeah, yeah. So this is 2014, so they'd already know each other and been close for some years now, and they'd already done the deal or initiated the deal with Mongolia and Cote d', Ivoire, at least at this point, in other countries as well too. So they, you know, and you know, to Emma's point, it's a really important point because all these communications, they don't talk about the sex trafficking aspect at all, so far as I've seen. But that's a subtext. We know what's happening. We know what's been going on. He's been involved in that. He'd been convicted many, many years before that, the first time for that. So it's something which is a unspoken sort of additional layer in this onion that it does implicate the broader. Suggests a broader meaning behind their communications. And you know, Epstein, you know, if you look at the way he talks to different people, he talks to everyone sort of a different way, so to speak. He kind of tells them not what they want to hear per se, but he would sort of project a certain image back at them which was conducive to what their interests were, their desires were and so forth. He definitely has a markedly different communication style with different types of people. So, you know, it makes sense that in Barack's case, you know, he helped make Barack a very wealthy person. And I think these emails show the whole process of that happening in a way. And, you know, Barack, he had certain political inclinations, he had desire to make money. He had other things going on maybe and his communication with Epstein. Epstein seems to have been to knowledge of all that and how to continue to get him along that, that process.

[Sam Seder]

Lastly, does, did. Did it occur to you like reading these emails like what is this dude doing using Gmail for all this? Like it's sort of like that's the other thing. It's like, it's like like they're doing all this over like compuserver, aol. It just seems so like Epstein feels like he doesn't have to worry about anybody finding this stuff out because there's almost a sense of like who are they going to report me to? Like yeah, every I got like I'm, I'm untouchable. It sort of feels like he.

[Emma Vigeland]

Well that was the lesson he also got out of 2000. This 2007 non prosecution agreement was like just basically I am untouchable. Right. That would make sense and line up with this timeline. Right?

[Murtaza Hussein]

Yeah, I think there was a great sense of impunity reigning at that time. Not say that they whine I want to read emails or thought maybe it was not impossible. But you know, given the 2008 agreements, given a lot of things and given the way he lived and the people around him lived, I don't think that they felt necessarily a great fear from the public or fear from accountability of any sort. So it's not just him who was using the Gmail, like bureaucracy in the Gmail and other very powerful people Americans and others were using like AOL and Hotmail and so forth. This is 2014, 13, around that time. And these people from an older generation who may have been less acclimated at that time to the whole concept and so forth but you know, it was very cavalier and I think if you look at the later communications, especially the House disclosures which are more recent in time, in 2019, 2018, like that he does seem to become a bit more cagey and he says more often that certain things should only be discussed in the phone and so forth. But he's still using his email, he's still using that to communicate with these very powerful people. So you know that's.

[Sam Seder]

We should say this is after like it's not like you know, like portray us got got. I think he was. I don't know if he was convicted but he was prosecuted because you know they found that he was doing that draft thing with the, with the Gmail where the. I think it was his girlfriend slash reporter who was writing about him. They would communicate by Just sharing a Gmail account and writing back and forth just in drafts. So it was never actually even emailed out and they still were able to find that. So it's not like, you know, you know, it's not like my dad going like, wait, what? They can look at AOL emails, really, like, you know, a guy has some savvy. It just as if he just thinks he has impunity on some level.

[Murtaza Hussein]

You know, I think that sense of impunity kind of goes to. It's like a very important part of the whole story because even the sex trafficking and the criminality is over. Not just Epstein, but a lot of these people, they seem to believe that they were somehow above all sort of legality and morality and propriety and so forth. That's just the broader impression I get from their broader range of activities, like even the use of an island and all the spectacularly illegal and moral things that are going on there. It just seemed like there's no way that anybody could possibly see what we're doing or stop us or the idea of us being stopped is simply impossible. That's just tremendous amount of hubris, I would say, which is in the emails, not just with Epstein, by the way. Many, many other people. And when you get that level of hubris, you can make mistakes and you can become cavalier in a way which could be injurious later on. That's what they seem to be operating as though. And I would say that I get the impression of that culture still exists, and maybe Epstein was taken down for some reason, but that broader global elite culture, and you see it like all over the world, that's very, very much prevalent. And, you know, this is just one glimpse into it. And who knows what's going on right now.

[Sam Seder]

I think at the end of the day, that is probably like, the biggest takeaway from this is the sort of there is a cohort of people living amongst us, but they're not living amongst us. They are operating under an entirely different set of rules. And it explains a lot of times their decision making, because I think, you know, more than anything else, at least in the context of the sex trafficking, these are not people who I think even contemplate the idea that, like, well, I'm doing sex trafficking. I mean, they. I think they were aware that they could break laws. And there's some emails from. From Epstein that suggest, you know, Dershowitz was getting information to see, like, what the specific laws were. But. But they clearly didn't look at these girls or women as you know, as human beings, they were just, you know, these are all. And I think that across the board it's like we're humans and everything else is just sort of like things for us to exploit in some fashion. Murtaza Hussein, we will link to your pieces in on drop sites and look forward to more of these coming out. It is, there's so much to this story and again, I think it really speaks to sort of a, an elite perspective on the world that we as just mere humans don't know much about it, but appreciate your time today.

[Murtaza Hussein]

Hey, thank you both for having me on. Appreciate it.

[Emma Vigeland]

Thanks so much.

[Sam Seder]

All right, folks, we're going to take a quick break and head to the fun half. Yes, wherein you can I am the show if you're a member and we will read your IMs, we may take some phone calls. We will have some fun out on the trail, as it were. Don't forget you can join us there by becoming a [e-mail] when you do, you not only get the free show free of commercials, but you also get the fun half. And perhaps even more importantly, you help this show survive and thrive. Your support is what keeps this show independent. And you know, we don't always say the stuff that our members or our audience wants us to, but you know, at least we're saying it because we believe it and we don't get necessarily a benefit from saying it. Also Just Coffee, although with that said, here's an ad. Just Coffee Co op, although I do actually genuinely love this coffee and I really do love this company. Just Coffee has been a sponsor of, of this show or even the one preceded at the break room live for 20 years or 18 or I don't know, some math problem. But Just Coffee Co Op Fair Trade Coffee. They're a co op in Madison, Wisconsin. They sell a Majority report blend but they also have all sorts of single origin and if you use the coupon code majority you get 10 off Matt left Reckoning or the Jacobin show.

[David Griscom]

Yeah, actually folks on YouTube can go over to Jacobin's YouTube channel and of course watch the first episode of the Jacobin show with David Griscom and I. But also folks, check out the link here. You can get four print issues of Jacobin for just $10 or year long digital access for $5 by using the code there. So if, if a lot of people decide they today's the day they need to do their Jacobin subscription, I would be much if you did it through.

[Sam Seder]

That link, scroll Up a little bit. There's a couple of things I noticed. First off, you know what it is? I love that wave at the bottom. That is super cool.

[Emma Vigeland]

Yeah. Also it's minimalist, but it gets the job done.

[Sam Seder]

Now, does Griscom get a little bit upset that he seems to actually, like, groom himself for the show and then you just seem to, like, show up?

[David Griscom]

So we're on different timelines when it comes to that, but I'll just say, like.

[Sam Seder]

So Griscom is, like, moving forward into. At a faster.

[Murtaza Hussein]

Yeah.

[David Griscom]

At a faster pace.

[Murtaza Hussein]

And I'm.

[David Griscom]

That's actually an improvement if you clock it over the. The previous.

[Sam Seder]

You did look. You look like you shaved there. I did shave.

[David Griscom]

I am still wearing my basic Hanes T shirt. My nice, like, four for four for $20 pack there. But yeah, you know, we're. We're. We're upgrading.

[Sam Seder]

So Griscom's got, like, he's got prints in the back. He's got a sport coat on. He's got a bookshelf.

[David Griscom]

Well, he's the main host for the Jackman show.

[Sam Seder]

Okay.

[David Griscom]

I'm just a producer in the background.

[Sam Seder]

I got you. Okay.

[Emma Vigeland]

Who weighs in whenever he wants. Yeah. The best of both worlds for Matt. Very similar to what you do here.

[David Griscom]

That's awesome. You can wear whatever you want.

[Sam Seder]

H. John Cedar. Hey, I ordered an m. Majority shirt and the expected delivery date was last week. Is there a way to get a track number? I will look into that.

[Emma Vigeland]

Probably hasn't shipped yet. Didn't we say that it was supposed. It's a pre order, so it was going to come around Thanksgiving. I thought that was what.

[Murtaza Hussein]

Yes, we.

[Emma Vigeland]

Yeah. So I just think maybe just a little bit of patience and then we'll see. Hopefully it'll come soon, folks.

[Sam Seder]

See you in the fun half. Three months from now, six months from now, nine months from now. And I don't think it's gonna be the same as it looks like in six months from now. And I don't know if it's necessarily gonna be better six months from now than it is three months from now, but I think around 18 months out, we're gonna look back and go like, wow. What. What is that going on? It's nuts. Wait a second. Hold on. Hold on for a second.

[Murtaza Hussein]

The majority report.

[Sam Seder]

Emma. Welcome to the pro A. Fun pack. Matt. Fun. What is up, everyone? Fun hack. No, me.

[Murtaza Hussein]

You did it.

[Sam Seder]

Fun pack.

[Emma Vigeland]

Let's go, Brandon.

[Sam Seder]

Let's go, Brandon. Fun pack. Bradley, you want to say hello? Sorry to disappoint Everyone. I'm just a random guy. It's all the boys today.

[Emma Vigeland]

Fundamentally false. No. I'm sorry.

[Sam Seder]

Women's talking for a second.

[Emma Vigeland]

Let me finish.

[Murtaza Hussein]

Where is this coming from?

[Emma Vigeland]

Dude.

[Murtaza Hussein]

But.

[Sam Seder]

Dude. You want to smoke this? 7A.

[Emma Vigeland]

Yes.

[Sam Seder]

Yes. Is this me?

[Murtaza Hussein]

Is it me?

[Sam Seder]

It is you. Is this me?

[Murtaza Hussein]

Oh. Oliver Smith.

[Sam Seder]

I think it is.

[Murtaza Hussein]

New.

[Sam Seder]

Who is, you know.

[Murtaza Hussein]

South.

[Sam Seder]

Every single freaking day. What's on your mind?

[Kevin Hassett]

Sports.

[Sam Seder]

We can discuss free markets.

[Murtaza Hussein]

And we can discuss capitalism.

[Sam Seder]

I'm gonna go snow white. Libertarians. They're so stupid. Though common sense says. Of course.

[Emma Vigeland]

Gobbledygook.

[Sam Seder]

We nailed him.

[Emma Vigeland]

So what's 79 plus 21?

[Sam Seder]

Challenge. Man. I'm positively quivering. I believe 96. I want to say. 8572-103550-11389, 11.

[Emma Vigeland]

For instance. $3,400. $1,900.

[Sam Seder]

54. $3 trillion. Sold. It's a zero sum game.

[Emma Vigeland]

Actually. You're making me think less.

[Murtaza Hussein]

But.

[Sam Seder]

But let me say this poop. You can call it satire.

[Murtaza Hussein]

Sam goes satire on top of it all. My favorite part about you is just.

[Emma Vigeland]

Like every day, all day.

[Murtaza Hussein]

Look at everything you do.

[Sam Seder]

Without a doubt. Hey, buddy. We see you. All right. Folks. Folks.

[Murtaza Hussein]

Folks.

[Emma Vigeland]

It's just the week being weeded out. Obviously.

[Sam Seder]

Yeah. Sun's out.

[Kevin Hassett]

Guns out.

[Sam Seder]

I. I don't know.

[Murtaza Hussein]

But you should know.

[David Griscom]

People just don't like to entertain ideas anymore.

[Sam Seder]

I have a question. Who cares?

[David Griscom]

Our chat is enabled. Folks.

[Sam Seder]

I love it.

[Emma Vigeland]

I do love that.

[Sam Seder]

Gotta jump. Gotta be quick. I gotta jump.

[Murtaza Hussein]

I'm losing it. Bro.

[Sam Seder]

Two o'.

[Murtaza Hussein]

Clock.

[Sam Seder]

We're already late and the guy's being a dick. So screw him. Sent to a gulag.

[Emma Vigeland]

Outrageous.

[Sam Seder]

Like. What is wrong with you?

[Murtaza Hussein]

Go. Love you. Bye.

[Sam Seder]

Love you.

[Emma Vigeland]

Bye.

[Sam Seder]

Bye.